Why we should be against the FLU shot vaccine

[FrankRep]

Scary stuff

http://www.cbc.ca/airfarce/vidplayer/AF_single_player.html?/season13/051202m&playerType=wmp

[FrankRep]

Vaccine Ingredients

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

[garrettwombat]

i have never gotten a flu shot in my entire life

[bc2208]

No vaccine is necessary or safe.

[garrettwombat]

you know the funny thing... not only have i never had a flu shot... i've never had the flu either!!!

imagine that...

[Wyurm]

i have never gotten a flu shot in my entire life

Same here. These are some nice informative articles:

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/environment/archives/125836.asp

http://www.mercuryexposure.org/index.php?article_id=175

A very detailed video showing how mercury kills brain cells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85tgwh3HpsM

[Ron Paul Fan]

I never get flu shots either. I'd rather not be poisoned! And I rarely every get the flu anyway. They're just a waste of time and money. And apparently they may be deadly!

[honkywill]

Well I've gotten a flu shot for the past 4 years. I got the flu almost every year prior.

My girlfriends mother gets one because she works at a pediatricians office and that's just a breeding ground.

These things absolutely work. Never should they be forced upon people though.

[derdy]

I don't get sick AT ALL! It's weird.

I haven't had a Flu Shot in a while and after seeing some of the other people at my work get one from our employer, I'm even less sold on vaccinations!

One of my associates got the flu shot and then got the flu for a week!

I'm good. If it ain't broke don't fix it

[realitywiz]

My parents always GET the flu right after taking the flu shot. This year they finally listened to me and did not get their flu shots -- and they didn't get the flu!

I haven't gotten that poison in the last 7 years and I've never gotten the flu. :)

Check out http://www.mercola.com and http://www.newstarget.com for REAL health information -- unlike pharmaceutical cartel propaganda.

[Air420]

No vaccine is necessary or safe.
Ya, thats why I never got the polio vaccine.

[honkywill]

Ya, thats why I never got the polio vaccine.

lol

[Flirple]

Let's not turn this Forum into a den of pseudo-science. I've dealt with the anti-vaccination crowd for long enough to know that debating them online is even more of a lost cause than debating conspiracy theorists. Plus, this perhaps isn't the right message board to be doing this.

If you want to articulate an argument that forced immunizations are a violation of the constitution and your personal rights then I'm listening. But please don't hide behind debunked pseudo-scientific claims (the flu shot can give you the flu, puts mercury in your body, etc.). These are flatly false claims that have been dis proven. Let me repeat that: those are flatly false claims that have been repeatedly shown to be false.

Please stop repeating them. It's intellectually dishonest and this isn't the appropriate place.

[derdy]

Let's not turn this Forum into a den of pseudo-science. I've dealt with the anti-vaccination crowd for long enough to know that debating them online is even more of a lost cause than debating conspiracy theorists. Plus, this perhaps isn't the right message board to be doing this.

If you want to articulate an argument that forced immunizations are a violation of the constitution and your personal rights then I'm listening. But please don't hide behind debunked pseudo-scientific claims (the flu shot can give you the flu, puts mercury in your body, etc.). These are flatly false claims that have been dis proven. Let me repeat that: those are flatly false claims that have been repeatedly shown to be false.

Please stop repeating them. It's intellectually dishonest and this isn't the appropriate place.

My reply to the OP had nothign to do with my own 'conspiracy theories' (aka my own critical thought). The guy that sits next to me at work, this time last year, went to get a flu shot. I haven't had one in 10 years and watching the experience he had from the shot; as I said, "I'm good~!"

No argument is intellectually dishonest so long as you can argue and win ;)

[Man from La Mancha]

Let's not turn this Forum into a den of pseudo-science. I've dealt with the anti-vaccination crowd for long enough to know that debating them online is even more of a lost cause than debating conspiracy theorists. Plus, this perhaps isn't the right message board to be doing this.

If you want to articulate an argument that forced immunizations are a violation of the constitution and your personal rights then I'm listening. But please don't hide behind debunked pseudo-scientific claims (the flu shot can give you the flu, puts mercury in your body, etc.). These are flatly false claims that have been dis proven. Let me repeat that: those are flatly false claims that have been repeatedly shown to be false.

Please stop repeating them. It's intellectually dishonest and this isn't the appropriate place.Your right this should be in "other topcs". But your so wrong on the other points, the proof they can hurt you is quit proven, where did you get your info from quakebusters?

.

[Flirple]

I just reread my post and apologize for the somewhat harsh tone. It's just that vaccination myths really bother me because innocent people die every year because of all the disinformation about vaccines. The problem is that they have been so effective that we now have the luxury of taken them for granted. And those who don't get vaccinations are getting a free ride from the rest of society who are vaccinate. But time and time again we see that when anti-vaccination sentiments gain a bit of popularity within a given community we see deadly outbreaks. And keep in mind that the flu kills many tens of thousands of Americans every year.

Even if you have a good immune system and are in good health and don't mind taking the risk of getting the flu, getting a flu shot is still the moral thing to do so you can lessen the chance that you will contract the flu and then pass it on to someone with a compromised immune system (the elderly, young, or previously ill) in which case that could kill them.

The extensive body of research in this area from authoritative scientific journals such as JAMA have show there is nothing to all the claims comming from the anti-immunization crowd. If you believe any of the claims such as mercury poisoning, or that the shot gives you the flu than you are making a scientific claim. And therefore the burden of proof lies with the claimant. Show me an approved study that got published in an authoritative scientific Journal such as "Nature" or "JAMA" (not some rinky dink journal started by anti-vaccination buffs). And I hope I don't have to mention that personal anecdotes do not count.

Clearly state your claims (which of the myths you do or don't believe) and then show me a double blind controlled clinical trial that held up to scientific review that supports your claims. And please spare me any talk about big pharma covering up the truth. When you are making scientific claims you have to follow the scientific method. And this is something that those who propagate myths about alternative medicine refuse to do. They don't want to submit themselves to the scientific method and on the rare instance that they do, they never adjust their opinions when they are shown to be wrong by the scientific data. Science is about adjusting your theories according to the data. NOT adjusting the data to support your theories.

This is a very important topic and is very important not to believe the hype. If anyone is interested in this topic here is an mp3 for a good podcast with an interview with Dr. Mark Crislip who is an infectious disease specialist as well as an alternative medicine watchdog. Just fast forward to somewhere in the middle to hear the interview:
http://cdn.libsyn.com/skepticsguide/skepticast2007-10-17.mp3

And let me be clear that I am only talking about the effectiveness/safety of the flu shot and not the issue about weather or not they should be mandated by the government. My guess is that we already agree on the latter issue.

[rodent]

I just reread my post and apologize for the somewhat harsh tone. It's just that vaccination myths really bother me because innocent people die every year because of all the disinformation about vaccines. The problem is that they have been so effective that we now have the luxury of taken them for granted. And those who don't get vaccinations are getting a free ride from the rest of society who are vaccinate. But time and time again we see that when anti-vaccination sentiments gain a bit of popularity within a given community we see deadly outbreaks. And keep in mind that the flu kills many tens of thousands of Americans every year.

Even if you have a good immune system and are in good health and don't mind taking the risk of getting the flu, getting a flu shot is still the moral thing to do so you can lessen the chance that you will contract the flu and then pass it on to someone with a compromised immune system (the elderly, young, or previously ill) in which case that could kill them.

The extensive body of research in this area from authoritative scientific journals such as JAMA have show there is nothing to all the claims comming from the anti-immunization crowd. If you believe any of the claims such as mercury poisoning, or that the shot gives you the flu than you are making a scientific claim. And therefore the burden of proof lies with the claimant. Show me an approved study that got published in an authoritative scientific Journal such as "Nature" or "JAMA" (not some rinky dink journal started by anti-vaccination buffs). And I hope I don't have to mention that personal anecdotes do not count.

Clearly state your claims (which of the myths you do or don't believe) and then show me a double blind controlled clinical trial that held up to scientific review that supports your claims. And please spare me any talk about big pharma covering up the truth. When you are making scientific claims you have to follow the scientific method. And this is something that those who propagate myths about alternative medicine refuse to do. They don't want to submit themselves to the scientific method and on the rare instance that they do, they never adjust their opinions when they are shown to be wrong by the scientific data. Science is about adjusting your theories according to the data. NOT adjusting the data to support your theories.

This is a very important topic and is very important not to believe the hype. If anyone is interested in this topic here is an mp3 for a good podcast with an interview with Dr. Mark Crislip who is an infectious disease specialist as well as an alternative medicine watchdog. Just fast forward to somewhere in the middle to hear the interview:
http://cdn.libsyn.com/skepticsguide/skepticast2007-10-17.mp3

And let me be clear that I am only talking about the effectiveness/safety of the flu shot and not the issue about weather or not they should be mandated by the government. My guess is that we already agree on the latter issue.

All the studies in the journal can be good; however, you still have to trust the supply chain, who handles the supply chain, and the people involved in the manufacturing.

Journal studies usually only go so far as to ultimately conduct a study and perform an elaborate statistical hypothesis test. The studies themselves don't necessarily have the ability to forecast the long term implications of some of the practices used in manufacturing vaccines. Secondly, you're putting too much faith in statistics. The outcome is still a random variable, and that means that there is a probability (however slim) that you could have unexpected complications.

[Man from La Mancha]

And let me be clear that I am only talking about the effectiveness/safety of the flu shot and not the issue about weather or not they should be mandated by the government. My guess is that we already agree on the latter issue. Then why aren't the companies that produce them can't be held libel in court and that the government should do nothing in a free market to protect them? Why have the major diseases that vaccines were used for, on the decline already? Why in many cases for a hundred years when vaccines were mass inoculated into populations did the rates of those diseases go up. Why then does a standing offer to any physician for $85,000 dollars to any of them to drink a concoction of whats in most vaccines been taken up? You can freely go ahead and put any thing you want into your body, but mine is too valuable to experiment with. I won't even use micro wave ovens, not enough long term study on the effects(200yr study). At 56 I rarely get sick, feel physically 21, have no pain and sleep anywhere or anytime like a baby. I'm not lucky but work at keeping pharma drugs, vaccines out of me and eat raw vegan and go to Chinese herbal doctors when I feel bad or get hurt.
This is far more effective than vaccines mms http://miraclemineral.org/index.htm

$85,000 challenge..http://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2007/07/24/drink_some_vaccine_additives_for_85_000

.

[rodent]

Then why aren't the companies that produce them can't be held libel in court and that the government should do nothing in a free market to protect them? Why have the major diseases that vaccines were used from on the decline already? Why in many cases for a hundred years when vaccines were mass inoculated into populations did the rates of those diseases go up. Why then does a standing offer to any physician for $85,000 dollars to any of them to drink a concoction of whats in most vaccines been taken up? You can freely go ahead and put any thing you want into your body, but mine is to valuable to experiment with. I won't even use micro wave ovens, not enough long term study on the effects(200yr study). At 56 I rarely get sick, fell physically 21, have no pain and sleep anywhere or anytime like a baby. I'm not lucky but work at keeping pharma drugs, vaccines out of me and eat raw vegan and go to Chinese herbal doctors when I feel bad or get hurt.
This is far more effective than vaccines mms http://miraclemineral.org/index.htm

$85,000 challenge..http://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2007/07/24/drink_some_vaccine_additives_for_85_000

.

Pure microwaving of food is fine. It's just a transfer of energy to the water molecules inside your food. The risks come from whether toxins in the containers people use to cook are released or not. You're fine on the microwave stuff, so long as you cook it openly on a safe container.

I don't trust Chinese herbal doctors. Every time I see a wild-life show about why an animal is endangered, it's because some Asian nuts want that animal's testicles for some wacky concoction. I'd hate to create a demand for that nutty market.

[Man from La Mancha]

Pure microwaving of food is fine. It's just a transfer of energy to the water molecules inside your food. The risks come from whether toxins in the containers people use to cook are released or not. You're fine on the microwave stuff, so long as you cook it openly on a safe container.

I don't trust Chinese herbal doctors. Every time I see a wild-life show about why an animal is endangered, it's because some Asian nuts want that animal's testicles for some wacky concoction. I'd hate to create a demand for that nutty market.
Since you don't know but other than heresy, not one Chinese doctor I've have been to uses any animal products except maybe an insect shell(very rare) in the USA. Micro waving does not just transfer heat as infrared but literally cause the molecules to vibrate at much higher speed to produce friction and thus heating the food, thus they can alter the chemical bonds in the food. So does cooking with fire but at least that has been around for 1000's of years. As I said your welcome to experiment with your body, thats what we all love about Ron Paul, one should be free to choose. Here is a link to the dangers of micro wave cooking, and I don't think all of it is that well documented but it still raises my suspicions enough to let you experiment for me.http://www.all-natural.com/microwa1.html I'm basically against cooking all together, if you burn a house do you have more of that house or less? Every creature on the whole earth eats it's food raw. We evolved on raw food basically except for the last several 10,000's of years. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just saying what seems to work well for me. :)

.

[rodent]

Since you don't know but other than heresy, not one Chinese doctor I've have been to uses any animal products except maybe an insect shell(very rare) in the USA. Micro waving does not just transfer heat as infrared but literally cause the molecules to vibrate at much higher speed to produce friction and thus heating the food, thus they can alter the chemical bonds in the food. So does cooking with fire but at least that has been around for 1000's of years. As I said your welcome to experiment with your body, thats what we all love about Ron Paul, one should be free to choose. Here is a link to the dangers of micro wave cooking, and I don't think all of it is that well documented but it still raises my suspicions enough to let you experiment for me.http://www.all-natural.com/microwa1.html I'm basically against cooking all together, if you burn a house do you have more of that house or less? Every creature on the whole earth eats it's food raw. We evolved on raw food basically except for the last several 10,000's of years. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just saying what seems to work well for me. :)

.

Like you said, just cooking food will alter chemical bonds in the food. Are you a RAW food junkie?

What's an easy way to get started on RAW? I'm not opposed to cooking, but I'd like to eat less pre-made garbage. I think it's taking a toll on my health.

Thing is, if I eat raw vegetables I get bored. Then I start cooking. Then I start putting premade stuff in. It's so hard to get out of the loop.

[Man from La Mancha]

Like you said, just cooking food will alter chemical bonds in the food. Are you a RAW food junkie?

What's an easy way to get started on RAW? I'm not opposed to cooking, but I'd like to eat less pre-made garbage. I think it's taking a toll on my health.

Thing is, if I eat raw vegetables I get bored. Then I start cooking. Then I start putting premade stuff in. It's so hard to get out of the loop.Google raw recipes and raw cures. I find some fruit not too much a lot of greens and vegetables, seeds and nuts, avocados, raw green coconuts. One can also include raw organic milk or eggs. It is very hard to do. Try for a month to see how one feels. Don't get discourage if one goes back to cooked. Just start up again later. But if one is dying of a disease stay 100% raw. Whats better food addiction or alive feeling good? I have been 100% raw 4 times for 9 moths straight but break down and eat some cooked food. But when I get sick I eat 100% raw. Last year I had a prostrate problem and the doctors wanted to laser me, I didn't like the side effects they told me, so I again went 100% raw with Chinese herbs and herbs I researched and bought on the net. Guess what I have no problem, sleep 8 hours straight now.

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[kimosabi]

Google raw recipes and raw cures. I find some fruit not too much a lot of greens and vegetables, seeds and nuts, avocados, raw green coconuts. One can also include raw organic milk or eggs. It is very hard to do. Try for a month to see how one feels. Don't get discourage if one goes back to cooked. Just start up again later. But if one is dying of a disease stay 100% raw. Whats better food addiction or alive feeling good? I have been 100% raw 4 times for 9 moths straight but break down and eat some cooked food. But when I get sick I eat 100% raw. Last year I had a prostrate problem and the doctors wanted to laser me, I didn't like the side effects they told me, so I again went 100% raw with Chinese herbs and herbs I researched and bought on the net. Guess what I have no problem, sleep 8 hours straight now.

.

Man from La Mancha is right on the money, if you want to heal your body, you need to consume Raw Organic Food, preferably Juiced or Blended.

If you really want to turn up the volume on your healing check out Dr Richard Schulze and his Incurables Program, etc.

[lucius]

Let's not turn this Forum into a den of pseudo-science. I've dealt with the anti-vaccination crowd for long enough to know that debating them online is even more of a lost cause than debating conspiracy theorists. Plus, this perhaps isn't the right message board to be doing this.

If you want to articulate an argument that forced immunizations are a violation of the constitution and your personal rights then I'm listening. But please don't hide behind debunked pseudo-scientific claims (the flu shot can give you the flu, puts mercury in your body, etc.). These are flatly false claims that have been dis proven. Let me repeat that: those are flatly false claims that have been repeatedly shown to be false.

Please stop repeating them. It's intellectually dishonest and this isn't the appropriate place.

I beg to differ:

Mercury, Autism and the Global Vaccine Agenda: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646&q=mercury+in+vaccines&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Mercury Causes Brain Cell Damage: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2852341163034542636&q=mercury+in+vaccines&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

ps: "The use of ‘conspiracy theory’ is a derogatory epithet. It is something the propagandists have deeply embedded [into the collective American psyche] and has been perfected over the decades. It is a useful tool to eliminate articulate dissent, other points of view, and information that might be inconvenient for policy agenda." Chris Sanders, Political Economist--Sanders Research

Glad to see that you support Dr. Paul and that we are in accord about forced vaccinations, but it is self-evident that you are woefully ignorant concerning vaccination issues.

[kimosabi]

I beg to differ:

Mercury, Autism and the Global Vaccine Agenda: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646&q=mercury+in+vaccines&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Mercury Causes Brain Cell Damage: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2852341163034542636&q=mercury+in+vaccines&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

ps: "The use of ‘conspiracy theory’ is a derogatory epithet. It is something the propagandists have deeply embedded [into the collective American psyche] and has been perfected over the decades. It is a useful tool to eliminate articulate dissent, other points of view, and information that might be inconvenient for policy agenda." Chris Sanders, Political Economist--Sanders Research

Glad to see that you support Dr. Paul and that we are in accord about forced vaccinations, but it is self-evident that you are woefully ignorant concerning vaccination issues.

Oh, let's not stop with the Vaccination Conspiracy Theory.

How about we add the unecessary use of Chlorine and Flouride in drinking water Conspiracy Theory.

And then there's all the poison's in our Food Conspiracy Theory.

When you do your research and discover that people can cure themselves of Cancer, AIDS and every other terrible and supposedly incurable disease just by eating Raw Organic Fruit and Vegetables you've got to wonder, whats going here, could there be a conspiracy to make us all sick and dependant on pharmacutical drugs?

[sparebulb]

I am not going to debate the pro's and con's of the flu vaccine, but in my city, for the last two years, the Health Department has coordinated with the cops to perform a mass drive thru vaccination. This is sold as being an emergency exercise and alarms me how they dangle the carrot of a free vaccination for the small price of having to line up and be handled by the cops. The vaccinations are not free for most people unless they show up to be processed by the "authorities".

I do not get a flu shot because I'm in my early 40's and presumably in good shape. If my understanding is correct, the flu shot has to be prepared 12 to 18 months ahead and only addresses 3 or 4 strains that are likely be the most bothersome by a committee. Out of thousands and thousands of strains, I do not see it as being a good gamble for me to take given the possible risks vs the reward of not getting an average case of the flu. I've been doing a lot better about not getting the flu by just washing my hands frequently and NEVER touching my face or eyes without prior washing my hands.

[ConstitutionGal]

Thimerosal is the preservative of choice for vaccine manufacturers. First introduced by Eli Lilly and Company in the late 1920s and early 1930s, the company began selling it as a preservative in vaccines in the 1940s. Thimerosal contains 49.6 percent mercury by weight and is metabolized or degraded into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. Mercury, or more precisely, ethylmercury, is the principle agent that kills contaminants. Unfortunately, mercury also kills much more than that.

The Department of Defense classifies mercury as a hazardous material that could cause death if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Studies indicate that mercury tends to accumulate in the brains of primates and other animals after they are injected with vaccines. Mercury poisoning has been linked to cardiovascular disease, autism, seizures, mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia and many other nervous system conditions. That's why the FDA rigorously limits exposure to mercury in foods and drugs. Some common sources of mercury include dental amalgam fillings, various vaccines and certain fish contaminated by polluted ocean waters.

The toxicity of mercury has never been in question. The real question is precisely how much mercury-laced thimerosal is toxic, and what are the possible consequences for our children at low doses?

Eli Lilly and Co. supposedly answered this question for us back in 1930. Concluding thimerosal to be of "a very low order of toxicity . . . for man," the company hired its own doctors to perform thimerosal experiments in Indianapolis City Hospital on meningitis patients during a severe outbreak in 1929. This 60-year-old evidence was still quoted on the company's brochures as recently as 1990. Andrew Waters, who is involved in a lawsuit against Eli Lilly, claims that most critical studies on the toxicity of thimerosal were suppressed by the company until now.

That might explain why thimerosal was eliminated in many countries 20 years ago. In 1977, a Russian study found that adults exposed to ethylmercury, the form of mercury in thimerosal, suffered brain damage years later. Studies on thimerosal poisoning also describe tubular necrosis and nervous system injury, including obtundation, coma and death. As a result of these findings, Russia banned thimerosal from children's vaccines in 1980. Denmark, Austria, Japan, Great Britain and all the Scandinavian countries have also banned the preservative.
Eli Lilly stuck to its "scientific" facts, but the truth began slipping between the cracks in 1999. After the number of immunizations rose to 12 to 15 per child, the public finally became privy to the possible dangers of thimerosal. One 1999 study revealed that some infants, due to a genetic or developmental factor, lack the ability to eliminate mercury. Trace amounts of mercury in these infants, when accumulated over several vaccines, could pose a severe health risk. Some vaccines, such as vaccines for hepatitis B, contained as much as 12.5 micrograms of mercury per dose. That's more than 100 times the EPA's upper limit standard when administered to infants.

Hepatitis B vaccines aren't the only immunizations under suspicion. According to Burton Goldberg in Alternative Medicine, scientists are finding stronger and stronger links between thimerosal and neurological damage. One report by Dr. Vijendra Singh of the Department of Pharmacology at the University of Michigan found a higher incidence of measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (MMR) antibodies in autistic children.

The National Vaccine Information Center in Vienna, Virginia, has noted a strong association between the MMR vaccine and autistic features. Reporting similar findings, the Encephalitis Support Group in England claims that children who became autistic after the MMR vaccine started showing autistic symptoms as early as 30 days after vaccination. The diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus vaccine (DPT) given at two, four and six months has triggered autistic symptoms, as well.

More here: http://www.newstarget.com/011764.html