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View Full Version : Here's the Liberty Dollar warrant




free.alive
11-17-2007, 04:39 PM
http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/17/business/art2a_large.jpg

free.alive
11-17-2007, 04:41 PM
Looks like the charges are money laundering an mail fraud.

lucius
11-17-2007, 04:42 PM
Thank you!

OptionsTrader
11-17-2007, 04:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58-36lSqG4

KewlRonduderules
11-17-2007, 04:49 PM
Here is the whole affidavit:

http://www.johnlocke.org/site-docs/meckdeck/pdfs/USAVLibdoll.pdf


Better download it soon. This link will go bye-bye. I believed the courts sealed it now.

slantedview
11-17-2007, 05:32 PM
Looks like the charges are money laundering an mail fraud.

I don't think either of those will fly. From what I know, both are dependant on some other illegal activity, and it's unclear exactly what that was.

tmg19103
11-17-2007, 05:35 PM
Well, I'm glad the FBI testing showed the silver coins to be .999 silver - as advertised.

From what I read, von Nothaus is toast. My take is a federal grand jury is deciding on charges right now so the FBI does not arrest him just on a warrant issued by a judge, and those charges will be announced at some time so as to spoil some good RP news - like on Dec. 16 or 17 as a not so subtle attempt to scare RP supporters, but that would just further unite our peaceful revolution. As they say, you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Also, it would not surpirse me in the least if the FBI keeps an eye on this forum in general to see if anything illegal is going on - which it is not.

What pisses me off about the affidavit of probable cause is how the FBI terms a "patriot" as anyone who supports the constitution in a manner that is not condusive to the federal government - as if this is a bad thing.

The whole point of getting RP elected is to have the federal guv obey the constiution, and they don't want to have to do that so they can control the people.

There will be no revolt over the Liberty Dollar. These guys did break the standing law, though what they did is what RP wants to legalize.

Will be interesting to see what more happens as RP gains more traction. He really does need more private personal security, IMHO.

bbachtung
11-17-2007, 05:37 PM
From reading the affidavit it appears that von NotHaus was running his own version of the Federal Reserve (revaluing the money when the price of silver exceeded his profit margin), rather than creating an actual competing currency. An actual competing currency would not be pegged to the U.S. Dollar.

tmg19103
11-17-2007, 05:43 PM
Looks to me like he was minting money the way it used to be in a constitutional manner and when it was backed by gold before 1913. Thus, his hard money was competing with the federal fiat money, albeit on a miniscule basis.

What he was doing was sensible, but also it appears to be illegal per these idiotic federal laws that give a monopoly on fiat dollars that have no real value and that cost Americans money/savings/value just by holding them.

This is why we need RP elected so badly.

ItDoesNotStopWithRonPaul
11-17-2007, 05:48 PM
From reading the affidavit it appears that von NotHaus was running his own version of the Federal Reserve (revaluing the money when the price of silver exceeded his profit margin), rather than creating an actual competing currency. An actual competing currency would not be pegged to the U.S. Dollar.

Except that at the end of the day when the U.S. dollar collapses, Liberty Dollar supporters, or people who just happened to be "duped" into accepting these as change, would have REAL SILVER in their pocket which they could use to buy things, and regular Joe Schmo would have a pocket full of toilet paper.

Admittedly, LDs are kind of deceiving, but not in an illegal or immoral way. Most people don't even think about what is behind their currency, so LDs are actually doing people favors.

Mark
11-17-2007, 05:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58-36lSqG4

Come wit it now!
Come wit it now!

"This Internet" explodes, shattering the molds..


Terror rains drenchin', quenchin' tha thirst of tha power dons
That five sided fist-a-gon
Tha rotten sore on tha face of mother earth gets bigger
Tha triggers cold empty ya purse

Rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells
They rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells
They rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells
They rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells

Weapons not food, not homes, not shoes
Not need, just feed the war cannibal animal

I walk tha corner to tha rubble that used to be a library

Line up to tha mind cemetary now

What we don't know keeps tha contracts alive an movin'

They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em

While arms warehouses fill as quick as tha cells


Rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells
They rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells

Bulls on parade

Come wit it now!

Bulls on parade!

tmg19103
11-17-2007, 05:53 PM
Except that at the end of the day when the U.S. dollar collapses, Liberty Dollar supporters, or people who just happened to be "duped" into accepting these as change, would have REAL SILVER in their pocket which they could use to buy things, and regular Joe Schmo would have a pocket full of toilet paper.

Admittedly, LDs are kind of deceiving, but not in an illegal or immoral way. Most people don't even think about what is behind their currency, so LDs are actually doing people favors.

I agree the concept is great - it is what RP wants to do when elected. However, what von NotHaus was doing does appear to be illegal under current federal law.

Mark
11-17-2007, 06:02 PM
it would not surprise me in the least if the FBI keeps an eye on this forum in general to see if anything illegal is going on - which it is not.



Here's something to look at..



http://www.let.rug.nl/%7Eusa/images/declar.jpg

Kalash
11-17-2007, 06:12 PM
Well, I'm glad the FBI testing showed the silver coins to be .999 silver - as advertised.

From what I read, von Nothaus is toast.



Nope.
Not the way I'm reading it.

They were upfront on the website that the coin's face value was slightly higher than the USD value of the silver or gold.

When you purchased X - LD you recieved X in silver backing.
Their "moveup points" (what they're referring to as fraud) were nothing more than a re-adjustment of the denominations to keep the face value near equal to the USD value of the silver you owned.


Only through twisted governmental logic can one define this as fraud.

It's like selling you a 10LD coin that has $10 worth of silver in it.

When that 10LD coin has $20 worth of silver in it - do you want to spend it as a $10 coin (face value) or spend it at the $20 it's worth?


What their "moveup" points were;
An attempt to keep a face value of the LD similar enough to the USD that it could be used at face value without complex conversions like all external currencies mus go though.

Instead of you keeping your 10LD coin, you can send it in, have it re-minted as a 20LD coin.
You still possess the same amount of silver - the same REAL value.
The face value on the coin is all that has changed.


This isn't fraud.
Not at all.

Fraud would be increasing the face value of the coin without increasing the value of the LD people already possess.

Basically - if you have 10LD worth $10 in silver... and the price of silver goes up..
And I start minting 20LD coins at the same weight of your 10LD coin - THAT is fraud (though not really - because you're buying the silver, not the face value of the coin - you still retain your wealth...)

Where is really gets tricky is the paper LD.
However, even there it is not fraud.

They double the FACE VALUE of the holdings currently issued to 10LD to 20LD.
If you return an old 10LD certificate/paper dollar/reciept/edollar you will receive the same weight in Silver as if you turned in a NEW 20LD dollar.

As the certificates state specifically what WEIGHT IN SILVER/GOLD they may be redeemed for - their face value is irrelevant.

This does not constitute fraud.


I don't think he's in any trouble at all.
The government stole his gold/silver/money.
They stole the gold/silver/money of American citizens.

THAT is a crime.
And they should be punished for their crime.


If that analogy doesn't make sense, let me know - I'll go over it again in a more basic manner.

bbachtung
11-17-2007, 06:13 PM
The reason that I have said that I don't think that von NotHaus' money would be the same competing currency as RP has proposed allowing is because it bears an uncanny resemblance to the current Federal Reserve system. Read the following portion of the Affidavit and tell me whether it sounds more like a sound money, competing currency or exactly like the inflators at the Federal Reserve (I've broken it into paragraphs for easier reading):



When the ALD reached the point of being unprofitable, NORFED conducted a "move up" of the currency. In 1998, the ALD currency was minted using a $10.00 base, meaning that a $10.00 ALD coin, eDollar, or warehouse receipt was backed by one troy ounce of silver.

In November of 2005, the thirty (30) day moving average of the spot price of silver reached the "move up point" set by NORFED. NORFED recalled all of the $10.00 base coins and warehouse receipts and "re-minted" the currency as a $20.00 base currency.

This change made what the day prior had been a $10.00 denomination ALD coin, warehouse receipt, or eDollar backed by one troy ounce of silver, a re-minted re-issued $20.00 denomination coin. This instantly doubled the value of the currency.

The "move up" left the silver and gold holdings at the same level as they were at the ten dollar base. Thus the face value of the entire currency was doubled without changing the holdings at all. The other effect of the "move up" was a tremendous increase in profits for NORFED, RCOs and Associates.

Pages 10-11 of the Affidavit.

Does that not sound exactly like what the Federal Reserve does in randomly printing money, resulting in inflation and the loss of purchasing power by the middle-class and the poor while enriching the elite?

If von NotHaus had wanted to create a competing currency, then why did he revalue the Liberty Dollar to keep it nearly even with the U.S. Dollar? Why not keep ten Liberty Dollars valued at one ounce of silver, but exchange them for U.S. Dollars valued at whatever the going rate for one ounce of silver is in U.S. Dollars?

dircha
11-17-2007, 06:13 PM
I wonder if we can expect the feds to come after Liberty Dollar resellers as well.

Presumably they now have all this information in the computer records they seized.

At least we haven't seen any terror related charges yet. "Attempting to undermine the monetary system of the United States of America" sounds like something a Giuliani administration would jump on.

This could go very badly...

bbachtung
11-17-2007, 06:15 PM
Please note that I'm not saying that von NotHaus was engaging in fraud, merely that he is engaging in a foolish attempt to keep the Liberty Dollar pegged to the increasingly-worthless U.S. Dollar.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2007, 06:17 PM
So the bottom line is:

Gift certificates and real coins (as opposed to pot metal alloy junk) are forgeries of FRNs.

Fractional reserve banking is fraud. (unless you are the government)

Patriots are dangerous. (Nothing new here, they've been saying for years now that anybody who makes frequent references to the Constitution, among other things, should be suspected of being a domestic terrorist)

Kalash
11-17-2007, 06:18 PM
From reading the affidavit it appears that von NotHaus was running his own version of the Federal Reserve (revaluing the money when the price of silver exceeded his profit margin), rather than creating an actual competing currency. An actual competing currency would not be pegged to the U.S. Dollar.


He wasn't creating an actual competing currency independent of the USD.
And like I described just above, it wasn't fraud.

It was an attempt to create a competing currency that could be used interchangeably with the USD in order to keep transactions simple.

The face value of the LD was supposed to remain constant with the USD's value in silver weight - so that the face value was always usable in trade.

It wasn't about profit margin - that's governmental gibberish.
That was also not EVIDENCE - it was speculative.

It cannot be held up in court.
Go back and read it...
IF the cost of minting/overhead, the profit would increase as the currency was moved up.

It's speculative.
It's inadmissible.

Which could, in theory, invalidate the affidavit - but don't hold me to that.


An affidavit is just a signed testimony.
It's someone's witness account.

A witness cannot speculate as to what might be.
They can only report as to what they have witnessed.

If the fraud allegations are tied to this speculation, there is no case at all.

torchbearer
11-17-2007, 06:18 PM
Looks like the charges are money laundering an mail fraud.

Yet, no one was arrested... hmmm...

bbachtung
11-17-2007, 06:19 PM
So the bottom line is:

Gift certificates and real coins (as opposed to pot metal alloy junk) are forgeries of FRNs.

Fractional reserve banking is fraud. (unless you are the government)

Patriots are dangerous. (Nothing new here, they've been saying for years now that anybody who makes frequent references to the Constitution, among other things, should be suspected of being a domestic terrorist)

Exactly. The government writes the rules and referees the game while also fielding its own team.

torchbearer
11-17-2007, 06:19 PM
The FBI should raid the federal reserve for all the reason they say they raided the liberty dollar. In fact, someone should file charges on the federal reserve banks...

dircha
11-17-2007, 06:19 PM
The reason that I have said that I don't think that von NotHaus' money would be the same competing currency as RP has proposed allowing is because it bears an uncanny resemblance to the current Federal Reserve system. Read the following portion of the Affidavit and tell me whether it sounds more like a sound money, competing currency or exactly like the inflators at the Federal Reserve (I've broken it into paragraphs for easier reading):


Pages 10-11 of the Affidavit.

Does that not sound exactly like what the Federal Reserve does in randomly printing money, resulting in inflation and the loss of purchasing power by the middle-class and the poor while enriching the elite?

If von NotHaus had wanted to create a competing currency, then why did he revalue the Liberty Dollar to keep it nearly even with the U.S. Dollar? Why not keep ten Liberty Dollars valued at one ounce of silver, but exchange them for U.S. Dollars valued at whatever the going rate for one ounce of silver is in U.S. Dollars?

I don't hold any Liberty Dollars.

But I believe the purpose of revaluing the Liberty Dollars suggested value is to make them more useful in transactions as a substitute for FRNs. Afterall, the value of the LDs in FRNs did go up. Retailers likely wouldn't keep scales around. Stamping them with an accurage suggested value makes this substitution easier on retailers willing to participate.

I don't see anything sinister in this.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2007, 06:20 PM
Oh, almost forgot...

Properly timed raids and indictments are a powerful political "smear" tool. (Unless you're The Rude)

Kalash
11-17-2007, 06:20 PM
The reason that I have said that I don't think that von NotHaus' money would be the same competing currency as RP has proposed allowing is because it bears an uncanny resemblance to the current Federal Reserve system. Read the following portion of the Affidavit and tell me whether it sounds more like a sound money, competing currency or exactly like the inflators at the Federal Reserve (I've broken it into paragraphs for easier reading):


Does that not sound exactly like what the Federal Reserve does in randomly printing money, resulting in inflation and the loss of purchasing power by the middle-class and the poor while enriching the elite?



No - it does NOT.

What the federal reserve does is change the face value WITHOUT increasing the holdings of those currently in possession of USD.

What Von blahblah was doing was increasing the holdings of LD accounts so that they had the same weight in SILVER/GOLD as before - and issued new FACE values so that the money could still be used interchangeably with the USD.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2007, 06:27 PM
bbach wrote:


Exactly. The government writes the rules and referees the game while also fielding its own team.

+1

torch wrote:


The FBI should raid the federal reserve for all the reason they say they raided the liberty dollar. In fact, someone should file charges on the federal reserve banks

+1

Ever see the movie "Copland"?

Welcome to it for real.

This is government by Tony Soprano, where Paulie Walnuts and Cristopher Moultisanti all have badges.

I agree with another poster, and as a holder of RP silver coins, this will get bad...

Too bad I can't say what I really want to.

Kalash
11-17-2007, 06:34 PM
I agree with another poster, and as a holder of RP silver coins, this will get bad...

Too bad I can't say what I really want to.

I don't think so.

Positive thoughts.
Bring SUCCESS into existence. (Go watch the Secret =P)

It won't be a problem - and there was no fraud/scam.
Your coins are backed by silver.

If you have paper LD - go join the civil suit.
Get your money back from the government's thieves.

They didn't take the silver out of your coins.
They still have their face value + if you melt them down and convert them into USD.
You haven't lost anything.

10thAmendmentMan
11-17-2007, 06:37 PM
Are they claiming the the liberty dollar company was guilty of these offenses (money laundering and mail fraud) or that the liberty dollar itself was being used for these purposes by some other party? If it's the latter, that's a pretty godawful way of handling the situation.

Kalash
11-17-2007, 06:41 PM
Are they claiming the the liberty dollar company was guilty of these offenses (money laundering and mail fraud) or that the liberty dollar itself was being used for these purposes by some other party? If it's the latter, that's a pretty godawful way of handling the situation.


For them to raid their offices it SHOULD be money laundering and fraud committed by them.

The reason for this is that they believe the coins to be illegal to sell/own.

If this is the case, then selling the coins was criminal - and fraudulently representing them as being legal to purchase was mail fraud.
As for money laundering - I don't know.

The affidavit doesn't read properly.
I'm standing by what I said in my previous posts - and we should really get that knowledge out before people start hearing, "He was inflating the currency just like the FED - you were all being scammed!"

The truth has long been the steadfast ally of this campaign.
Let's keep it fighting in front of us - not having us constantly calling for it to come to our defense.

SwanMaiden
11-17-2007, 07:12 PM
I find it HIGHLY ironic that the affidavit quotes, as part of it's supporting "evidence", the section of the Constitution stating that the minting of money is the sole responsibility of congress. Umm, yeah, that's true. But congress filched on that responsibility long ago!!! Congress is not even following the Constitution on that point, so they are just shooting themselves in the foot by stupidly bringing the Constitution into this and pretending it supports their case!:rolleyes:

Anti Federalist
11-17-2007, 07:15 PM
Kalash wrote:


It won't be a problem - and there was no fraud/scam.
Your coins are backed by silver.

I hold the coins themselves, RP silver rounds, not paper receipts

I agree there was no "fraud".

I see the feds going back through the sales records and confiscating the rounds as "evidence" and perhaps charging people who have used them as tender.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2007, 07:16 PM
Swan wrote:


I find it HIGHLY ironic

Irony is Andrew Jackson on a federal reserve note.

westmich4paul
11-17-2007, 07:17 PM
So is possesion of anything and selling that item that is worth more than the fiat dollar also considered a crime? Like your gold necklace? I guess I am just not understanding it. Does the coins the Franklin Mint put out fall under this same crime? Help me understand this?

Kalash
11-17-2007, 09:27 PM
So is possesion of anything and selling that item that is worth more than the fiat dollar also considered a crime? Like your gold necklace? I guess I am just not understanding it. Does the coins the Franklin Mint put out fall under this same crime? Help me understand this?


If you're serious - Yes. The possession of private property is ILLEGAL - if the government doesn't want you to possess it.

Drug laws are the perfect example.
Private property that is CRIMINAL to possess - even if you MAKE it yourself or purchase it with legal tender.

You don't even own yourself.
You cannot work without the government's approval (w-2 or 1099) - or without a social security card.
To do so is illegal, and you can be charged for misusing the government's property (yourself) by doing work and getting paid outside of the criminal protection racked (taxation/policing)

http://www.yuwie.com/blog/entry.asp?id=136912&eid=134757&t=Possession%20of%20Private%20Property%20=%20Feder al%20Crime

The possession of private property is now criminal.
Sovereignty is now criminal.

I expand upon that in that blog - and have the news video about the raid on the liberty dollar.
This isn't my specialty - but I've been doing about 10 months of legal research on the drug laws - which are laws against owning/possessing your private property.

There's a reason Ron Paul is opposed to such laws.


On the other hand - if you were just joking - stating that the Fed. is doing everything they're charging the Liberty Dollar people with - then yes. You are correct.

torchbearer
11-17-2007, 09:35 PM
Swan wrote:



Irony is Andrew Jackson on a federal reserve note.

No, they print that as a trophy because they ultimately won.

bjpolyamorous
11-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I am selling my Ron Paul silver liberty dollar and putting up half of what I get for it to Ron Paul's campaign. If any of you are interested in one, check it out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140180669821&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=004

James R
11-17-2007, 10:15 PM
http://starbulletin.com/2007/11/17/business/art2a_large.jpg

There is more detailed documentation at:
http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

Edit - I posted this yesterday and it scrolled off the page w/o a single look. I guess saying "documentation" is boring, but "warrant" is more exciting.

michaelwise
11-18-2007, 08:28 PM
What is their beef. Does the government or the Fed own the copyright on the words, dollar, quarter, dime, nickle, or penny? Or for that matter, the $ symbol?
If not, I don't see anything wrong with using those words or symbols on tokens or memorabilia.

OptionsTrader
11-18-2007, 09:28 PM
I thought this was interesting. The legal page:
http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/about/legal.htm

http://i3.tinypic.com/7xahhli.jpg

michaelwise
11-18-2007, 10:52 PM
bump

Matt Collins
04-23-2011, 06:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0D7s4MfbQE







He was also recently interviewed on Freedom Watch by Judge Napolitano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufHiZKKh9Hw#t=27m0s