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PierzStyx
07-03-2012, 07:52 PM
http://io9.com/5923080/10-movements-to-secede-from-the-united-states


Pretty excellent article. the links at the bottom are really excellent as well.

Acala
07-04-2012, 06:54 AM
The radical right to secession at all levels now seems to me to be the key to a free society. No other "Constitutional" provision can long restrain government power. Only the ability to leave at the first sign of over-reaching can do it.

Indy Vidual
07-04-2012, 02:06 PM
Happy Indy Day everyone!

PierzStyx
07-04-2012, 02:38 PM
I agree in theory. I just wonder if the level of technological power the military wields is simply overwhelming.

Acala
07-04-2012, 02:45 PM
I agree in theory. I just wonder if the level of technological power the military wields is simply overwhelming.

Of course it is. Until it isn't. The Soviet Union dissolved virtually without a shot being fired.

Anti Federalist
07-04-2012, 02:58 PM
Of course it is. Until it isn't. The Soviet Union dissolved virtually without a shot being fired.

This.

mac_hine
07-04-2012, 05:13 PM
I just posted this essay in Individual Rights & Liberties. It fits in well with this thread.

Happy Secession Day

by Thomas J. DiLorenzo

Perhaps the best evidence of how American history was rewritten, Soviet style, in the post-1865 era is the fact that most Americans seem to be unaware that "Independence Day" was originally intended to be a celebration of the colonists' secession from the British empire. Indeed, the word secession is not even a part of the vocabulary of most Americans, who more often than not confuse it with "succession." The Revolutionary War was America's first war of secession.

America's most prominent secessionist, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, was very clear about what he was saying: Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and whenever that consent is withdrawn, it is the right of the people to "alter or abolish" that government and "to institute a new government." The word "secession" was not a part of the American language at that time, so Jefferson used the word "separation" instead to describe the intentions of the American colonial secessionists.

The Declaration is also a states' rights document (not surprisingly, since Jefferson was the intellectual inspiration for the American states' rights political tradition). This, too, is foreign to most Americans. But read the final paragraph of the Declaration which states:

That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other things which independent states may of right do (emphasis in original).

Each colony was considered to be a free and independent state, or nation, in and of itself. There was no such thing as "the United States of America" in the minds of the founders. The independent colonies were simply united for a particular cause: seceding from the British empire. Each individual state was assumed to possess all the rights that any state possesses, even to wage war and conclude peace. Indeed, when King George III finally signed a peace treaty he signed it with all the individual American states, named one by one, and not something called "The United States of America." The "United States" as a consolidated, monopolistic government is a fiction invented by Lincoln and instituted as a matter of policy at gunpoint and at the expense of some 600,000 American lives during 1861—1865.

Jefferson defended the right of secession in his first inaugural address by declaring, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." (In sharp contrast, in his first inaugural address, Lincoln promised an "invasion" with massive "bloodshed" (his words) of any state that failed to collect the newly-doubled federal tariff rate by seceding from the union).

Jefferson made numerous statements in defense of the defining principal of the American Revolution: the right of secession. In a January 29, 1804 letter to Dr. Joseph Priestly he wrote:

Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the eastern, and I feel myself as much identified with that country, in future time, as with this; and did I now foresee a separation [i.e., secession] at some future day, yet I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power.

In an August 12, 1803 letter to John C. Breckinridge Jefferson addressed the same issue, in light of the New England Federalists' secession movement in response to his Louisiana Purchase. If there were a "separation" into two confederacies, he wrote, "God bless them both, & keep them in the union if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better."

So on July 4 stoke up the grill, enjoy your barbecue, and drink a toast to Mr. Jefferson and his fellow secessionists. (And beware of any Straussian nonsense about how it was really Lincoln, the greatest enemy of states' rights, including the right of secession, who taught us to "revere" the Declaration of Independence. Nothing could be further from the truth.)

July 4, 2006 http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/115062.html

PierzStyx
07-05-2012, 01:15 AM
Of course it is. Until it isn't. The Soviet Union dissolved virtually without a shot being fired.


And I hope that could be the case here. But we would need a much larger coalition on our side for anything resembling that to happen. Right now the mass of people are just to blindly satisfied with slavery.


Though democracy/federalism/republicanism did not rise in Russia after the fall of the USSR. Just another type of authoritarianism.

TheTexan
07-05-2012, 01:16 AM
Though democracy/federalism/republicanism did not rise in Russia after the fall of the USSR. Just another type of authoritarianism.

Which is why we need to start the separation now... not later

PierzStyx
07-05-2012, 01:31 AM
The radical right to secession at all levels now seems to me to be the key to a free society. No other "Constitutional" provision can long restrain government power. Only the ability to leave at the first sign of over-reaching can do it.

The Constitution is only effective when a moral freedom loving people enforce it and choose leaders who respect it strictly. That we have not been, and do not choose such leaders, is no fault of the Constitution's. It is ours.

But yes, we need to be willing to leave in order to keep government skittish enough about violating our rights to not do so, if only because they'd lose the tax revenue.

PierzStyx
07-05-2012, 01:33 AM
Which is why we need to start the separation now... not later

I'm not sure we have broad enough support from the people or the military to do so right now. That is my only hesitation.

TheTexan
07-05-2012, 01:59 AM
I'm not sure we have broad enough support from the people or the military to do so right now. That is my only hesitation.

Even if you don't think we have the support to secede right now, we should still be getting our asses to NH (or some other designated area) so that we can secede when the timing is right.

Acala
07-05-2012, 09:06 AM
Though democracy/federalism/republicanism did not rise in Russia after the fall of the USSR. Just another type of authoritarianism.

Perhaps only a slight improvement in Russia, but a big improvement in some of the former "Soviet Republics". Estonia, for example, is one of the most economically free nations on earth. When the USA dissolves (and I do mean when and not if because NOTHING lasts forever) different parts will go different ways. Educating, communicating, and migrating now paves the way for a free society rising from somewhere in the ash pile. And that will be my country, if I am still alive.

Athan
07-05-2012, 10:14 AM
Of course it is. Until it isn't. The Soviet Union dissolved virtually without a shot being fired.
This is why ideas of seccession in these times is downright foolish. Let the insane man cut his own neck. Don't attract his attention before he does it.