So basically, the FDA food pyramid has made things worse? Even the NYT is wondering...

[Cowlesy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/what-really-makes-us-fat.html

I guess this validates a lot of the primal folks -- pretty amazing stuff from the study.


On the very low-carbohydrate diet, Dr. Ludwig’s subjects expended 300 more calories a day than they did on the low-fat diet and 150 calories more than on the low-glycemic-index diet. As Dr. Ludwig explained, when the subjects were eating low-fat diets, they’d have to add an hour of moderate-intensity physical activity each day to expend as much energy as they would effortlessly on the very-low-carb diet. And this while consuming the same amount of calories. If the physical activity made them hungrier — a likely assumption — maintaining weight on the low-fat, high-carb diet would be even harder. Why does this speak to the very cause of obesity? One way to think about this is to consider weight-reduced subjects as “pre-obese.” They’re almost assuredly going to get fatter, and so they can be research stand-ins — perhaps the best we have — for those of us who are merely predisposed to get fat but haven’t done so yet and might take a few years or decades longer to do it.

Lots more at the link here (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/what-really-makes-us-fat.html)

[July]

Yup, this is the so called 'alternative hypothesis' of obesity and it isn't really new....but unfortunately it has been to the govt/FDA supported low fat/high carb diet what the Austrian school is to Keynesianism...in terms of how it is treated by the political class and Academic establishments. Though there is a lot of research supporting it.

I'm not surprised low carb and primal diets seem to be attracting a lot of libertarians. There are some neat analogies one could use to explain economics and the boom/bust cycle, and actually I have heard Rand use insulin and homeostasis as an economics analogy lots of times when explaining how the Fed manipulates interest rates.

[jbauer]

Diet is what diet is.

Weight is 100% about calories in vs calories out, simple as that. It hasn't been even 100 years in the history of mankind that we haven't had to "work" for our survival. Now days, sitting on a computer typing on RPF is considered a job. 100 years ago you might have been farming or some other labor intensive activity.

[sevin]

I wasn't sure about the low-carb diet until I realized the government has been telling Americans to eat more carbs ("healthy" whole grains) and less fat for over 30 years. That was all I needed to hear.

[sevin]

Diet is what diet is.

Weight is 100% about calories in vs calories out, simple as that. It hasn't been even 100 years in the history of mankind that we haven't had to "work" for our survival. Now days, sitting on a computer typing on RPF is considered a job. 100 years ago you might have been farming or some other labor intensive activity.

The "calories in calories out" theory is completely bogus. By that logic, it doesn't matter whether your 2000 calories a day comes from candy bars or vegetables. But obviously the candy bars will make you fat and the veggies won't.

[brandon]

I honestly can't believe they taught us this horse shit in school. Yea I know the pyramid has been changed a bunch of times since then, but this is what my generation learned in "health" class. Not a single one of these groups are essential for a healthy diet. I eat carbs everyday but not because I think they are a staple of a healthy diet....I eat them because they are delicious and I probably have some deep rooted addiction to them.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/USDA_Food_Pyramid.gif

[pcgame]

.....................

[July]

I wasn't sure about the low-carb diet until I realized the government has been telling Americans to eat more carbs ("healthy" whole grains) and less fat for over 30 years. That was all I needed to hear.

Yup. Dr. Atkins was attacked with a smear campaign in the media, similar to Ron Paul. You probably remember being told how dangerous Atkins was, how it caused heart attacks, etc.

Who runs the FDA? What does the govt subsidize a whole lot of, and what are their chief products? It is the same stuff placed at the "base" of the food pyramid. The obesity epidemic was caused by govt intervention. When you subsidize something, you get a lot more of it....and well, the standard American diet has become extremely high carb because grains and other high carb foods are artificially cheap. A return to sound money and free market in the food industry is what we need....

[MelissaWV]

The "calories in calories out" theory is completely bogus. By that logic, it doesn't matter whether your 2000 calories a day comes from candy bars or vegetables. But obviously the candy bars will make you fat and the veggies won't.

It isn't so much bogus as it is just slightly off the mark. Food is fuel. Candy bars (to follow your example) also contain a bunch of processed ingredients, or at very least a burst of sugar/caffeine that gives you a generally short-lived energy surge. Where the typical person goes wrong is reacting to that with "Oh that means chocolate is bad!" where it's just fine in moderation.

It used to be common sense to eat as balanced a diet as time and money could provide. You get nutrients, hydration, fuel, and any number of other benefits from food. You also get benefits from preparing your meals, and from sitting down as a family together and eating.

What you don't get benefits from is regulating every little calorie, fat gram, and so on, according to some prefabricated food pyramid that does not take into account your nutritional needs, or any hereditary issues that might mean you avoid or need certain foods compared to others. The people I've met that are diet-obsessed are the most unpleasant, unhealthy, cultish zombies ever, and if you catch them in an off moment they are usuall scarfing down the very food they've preached to you is so terrible for you.

[July]

Calories in, calories out...is actually true. But it is more the symptom, not the trigger or cause, and that's where the misinformation comes in. Yes, when you take in more than you expend, you gain weight. But what causes people to consume and store more than they can expend?

Dr. Eades wrote a good article explaining it:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/why-we-get-fat

[CaptUSA]

Actually, "calories in, calories out" misses the point.

Depending on what type of calories you put in, the harder you will have to work to get the same calories out. So while technically correct, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

This study kinda just proves what us Primal/Paleo types have already figured out: The government likes us fat and lazy. By introducing mass quantities of grain and refined sugars into the population, it takes less food to fatten people up. By the way, cattle farmers do the same thing to their cows. Grass-fed beef is harder to find and more expensive because it takes a long time to get to market. It's easier to feed the cattle grain. Plus, the cattle that are fed grain are easier to control prior to being led to slaughter. It's a win/win! (unless you're the cow.)

[Kluge]

Not only did that gov't food pyramid "guideline" gear people towards a shit diet that often caused weight gain, with little to no fat in your diet, there are a lot of nutrients/vitamins that you can't absorb. Over long periods of time, that can be devastating.

And the new "my plate" guideline looks like it's still pimping low-fat.

ETA: And who the hell can eat 11 servings of grain/day along with everything else?

[tod evans]

I teach my kid to listen to his own body....(except for sweets;) )

You'll crave what you're deficient in, the trick is to keep foods on hand that are as nature grew them. We don't do "reduced" anything, the only label reading consists of "If you can't pronounce it we're not eating it."

We go through lots of meat/cheese/eggs/ fruit/veggies and some starch.

[PatriotOne]

Actually, "calories in, calories out" misses the point.

Depending on what type of calories you put in, the harder you will have to work to get the same calories out. So while technically correct, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

This study kinda just proves what us Primal/Paleo types have already figured out: The government likes us fat and lazy. By introducing mass quantities of grain and refined sugars into the population, it takes less food to fatten people up. By the way, cattle farmers do the same thing to their cows. Grass-fed beef is harder to find and more expensive because it takes a long time to get to market. It's easier to feed the cattle grain. Plus, the cattle that are fed grain are easier to control prior to being led to slaughter. It's a win/win! (unless you're the cow.)

I use to spend summers on my grandparents farms. They raised shorthorn cattle. The kind one buy's at a premium price for breeding purposes and they took to the fairs to show and win ribbons and some would be auctioned off at really high prices (compared to those for food).

They also always had a couple of shorthorn steers every year that were raised for their own "freezer". The show cattle pretty much just grazed on pasture and alfalpha hay, had a salt lick and big ole water source. The steers they were fattening up for food pretty much ate the same way when they were young until they were ready to be finished out for the old freezer. The only difference in their feeding regime was that they were separated out from the rest of the herd and given an added bucket of some oat/corn,etc. grain mix for the last several months of their lives. I often was the one who was tasked with tossing the buckets of grain mix into their feeding stalls in the summers.

One day while "graining" the steers, I dropped the bucket and it kind of rolled under one of the feeding stalls. I bent down to retrieve the bucket and to my horror was dozens of rats under the stall waiting for grain droppings. These were the biggest, FATTEST rats I had ever seen :eek:. They were HUGE! I didn't even know rats could get that big or that they could get fat. Scared the crap out of me and from then on I would stand far back from those stalls and throw the grain in instead of just dump it in. The rats were probably please because my accuracy wasn't the best :p.

[PatriotOne]

Not only did that gov't food pyramid "guideline" gear people towards a shit diet that often caused weight gain, with little to no fat in your diet, there are a lot of nutrients/vitamins that you can't absorb. Over long periods of time, that can be devastating.

And the new "my plate" guideline looks like it's still pimping low-fat.

ETA: And who the hell can eat 11 servings of grain/day along with everything else?

That's 11 pieces of bread a day :eek:.

[Kluge]

That's 11 pieces of bread a day :eek:.

I think it's actually 22 slices, since one serving is generally 2 slices of bread.

Ouch. That's got to be almost an entire loaf of bread.

[PatriotOne]

I think it's actually 22 slices, since one serving is generally 2 slices of bread.

Ouch. That's got to be almost an entire loaf of bread.

A serving is generally one slice of prepackaged bread. Check the back of your Snyder's bread loaf....oh wait, you probably don't have any :D.

[Acala]

Diet is what diet is.

Weight is 100% about calories in vs calories out, simple as that. It hasn't been even 100 years in the history of mankind that we haven't had to "work" for our survival. Now days, sitting on a computer typing on RPF is considered a job. 100 years ago you might have been farming or some other labor intensive activity.

Sorry but it just ain't that simple. Human bodies are not just calorimeters. You need to understand the role of insulin. Eat 500 calories worth of wheat flour and your body will respond in a dramatically different manner than if you eat 500 calories worth of tallow. in the first case, your body will dump insulin into your bloodstream to try and keep blood glucose levels within a narrow range. The insulin will store the glucose as body fat regardless of what your longer term energy needs might be because your body MUST get the glucose out of circulation. Then, with the glucose stripped out of your blood stream, your energy level will drop and you will get hungry again. More carbs, more glucose, more insulin, more body fat storage, more hunger. Repeat until you are a big, bloated, inflamed wreck.

The 500 calories of fat doesn't trigger an insulin spike. In fact, it doesn't trigger any emergency hormone response because your body can tolerate a wide range of fatty acid levels in the blood. And because the fatty acids can hang around in your blood and tissue, they are available for a steady energy source. No emergency fat download into your tissue and no energy fluctuation.

This is why the girl in the office next to me kills herself in aerobics class every single day but is still chubby. I, on the other hand, never do more than twenty minutes of aerobic exercise and then only once or twice a week, put a tablespoon of butter in my coffee three times a day, eat as much as I want, am never hungry even on the days I fast, and am lean as a bushman. No hunger, no energy fluctuation, no killing myself in aerobic classes.

[CaptUSA]

Think about it from a central-planner's point of view.

"What is the cheapest way to make the population fat and lazy? Tell them to eat grain! Plus, we can subsidize the heck out of it which will make the farmers want to vote for us! Then, when they begin to get fat, we can tell them that it's because they're not eating enough grain! Frickin' brilliant! They'll do anything we want them to do, if we encourage their own laziness! If it ever becomes a health problem, they'll jump at the chance to allow us to take over their health care, too!"

11 servings of grain! These bastards are farming us.

[July]

Think about it from a central-planner's point of view.

"What is the cheapest way to make the population fat and lazy? Tell them to eat grain! Plus, we can subsidize the heck out of it which will make the farmers want to vote for us! Then, when they begin to get fat, we can tell them that it's because they're not eating enough grain! Frickin' brilliant! They'll do anything we want them to do, if we encourage their own laziness! If it ever becomes a health problem, they'll jump at the chance to allow us to take over their health care, too!"

11 servings of grain! These bastards are farming us.

And just to think about all the diseases that have exploded over the past 50-60 years or so, and how many are associated with malnutrition and metabolic syndrome (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc). It's a grim thought. Whether it is deliberate, or the result of misguided ignorance, it is unimaginable.

[farreri]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/USDA_Food_Pyramid.gif
They funny thing is all they had to do to make this pyramid essentially accurate was completely remove and toss out the bottom row and switch the Fats section with the Dairy section.

Of course in the Fats section, they also have to only list the healthy natural fats, like olives, coconut, and lard (yes, lard!) and tell to avoid overly processed and man-made fats.

[Revolution9]

I teach my kid to listen to his own body....(except for sweets;) )

You'll crave what you're deficient in, the trick is to keep foods on hand that are as nature grew them. We don't do "reduced" anything, the only label reading consists of "If you can't pronounce it we're not eating it."

We go through lots of meat/cheese/eggs/ fruit/veggies and some starch.

I had a craving for ..of all things.. molasses. I drank one jar of regular and one jar of blackstrap over a month. My hair turned darker, my skin cleared up and I needed less sleep. I do not have the craving anymore. I presume it was iron, sulfur and magnesium I craved.

Rev9

[GreedyHenry]

They funny thing is all they had to do to make this pyramid essentially accurate was completely remove and toss out the bottom row and switch the Fats section with the Dairy section.

Of course in the Fats section, they also have to only list the healthy natural fats, like olives, coconut, and lard (yes, lard!) and tell to avoid overly processed and man-made fats.




meat and dairy would contain plenty of the good omega 3 fats if they weren't raised on grains.

[donnay]

A good many studies show that obesity is caused by nutrient deficiencies.



http://paleohacks.com/questions/47101/does-lack-of-vitamins-make-you-fat#axzz1zaBHn4uD
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/422916/nutritional-disease
http://www.livestrong.com/article/418080-nutrition-needs-of-morbidly-obese-people/
http://fountain-ofyouth.com/colloidals/diet3.htm
http://www.kingmaker.net/eknowtrient-w-x-y-z.htm

[donnay]

I had a craving for ..of all things.. molasses. I drank one jar of regular and one jar of blackstrap over a month. My hair turned darker, my skin cleared up and I needed less sleep. I do not have the craving anymore. I presume it was iron, sulfur and magnesium I craved.

Rev9

Black strap molasses has copper in it. Graying hair and aging is due to a copper deficiency.

ETA: I meant Copper, and had read a study by a guy named Cooper. LOL!

[kathy88]

This thread makes me sad. I hate to see fat children, and they are EVERYWHERE where I live.

[CaptUSA]

This thread makes me sad. I hate to see fat children, and they are EVERYWHERE where I live.Imagine the impact we could have on society if the most fit and healthy people in your neighborhood were those who understood and embraced the liberty movement.

[heavenlyboy34]

What the "low fat, high carb" folks also don't like to mention is that that diet naturally causes high blood sugar, insulin spikes, insulin resistance, and eventually type 2 diabetes. /end ramble (and Atkins died from a head injury, not his diet)

[kathy88]

Imagine the impact we could have on society if the most fit and healthy people in your neighborhood were those who understood and embraced the liberty movement.

I'd be surrounded by fat bottomed girls.

[CaptUSA]

I'd be surrounded by fat bottomed girls.lol. Good point.

[farreri]

meat and dairy would contain plenty of the good omega 3 fats if they weren't raised on grains.
Yes, the Meat Section should say "grass-fed meats."

Grains are just one of the many foods of the devil. [/Helen Boucher, Bobby's mama]

[donnay]

What the "low fat, high carb" folks also don't like to mention is that that diet naturally causes high blood sugar, insulin spikes, insulin resistance, and eventually type 2 diabetes. /end ramble (and Atkins died from a head injury, not his diet)

The only problem is, he pushed Sucralose--Splenda. He also tried to make people understand that Stevia is a good sugar substitute, and it is. The problem is, they have Stevia in a lot of grocery stores, like Truvia and PureVia and that stuff is nasty. So it is incumbent for people to do research.

Truvia and PureVia – A Window to the Past or the Future?
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/02/truvia-purevia-past-future/

Truvia and PureVia: The Controversy of Stevia
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/02/stevia-controversy/

[farreri]

A good many studies show that obesity is caused by nutrient deficiencies.
I've been reading up a lot about the relatively new field of "energy psychology" and a lot of those holistic practitioners think that the root of obesity are deep emotional traumas, which make people eat to temporarily numb their emotional pain, just like a drug addict takes drugs to numb their pain. Food addicts are no different. They are just using a different crutch.

[angelatc]

The "calories in calories out" theory is completely bogus. By that logic, it doesn't matter whether your 2000 calories a day comes from candy bars or vegetables. But obviously the candy bars will make you fat and the veggies won't.

Nonsense. If I eat 3 candy bars a day (for a total of 2000 calories), and nothing else, I will not be fat.

[angelatc]

Sorry but it just ain't that simple. Human bodies are not just calorimeters. .

It is indeed that simple. Calories are nothing more than a measure of food energy. While it's true that some forms of calories burn easier than others, you can't deny that if you burn more calories than you take in you will lose weight.

[fisharmor]

Black strap molasses has cooper in it. Graying hair and aging is due to a cooper deficiency.
I was just thinking about how I need more wooden barrels in my life.
:confused:


Can someone speak to the cost of eating primal? It comes up regularly at the Fisharmor house but never gets acted on because it'll sting.

[farreri]

This thread makes me sad. I hate to see fat children, and they are EVERYWHERE where I live.
This is one of the reason I want all schools to be private. Parents will be able to choose to send their kids to schools they think have the better nutritional education program and it would soon become clear which schools do have the better nutritional programs when kids graduating from one school are coming out of it a lot thinner and healthier than the other schools!

[musicmax]

I had a craving for ..of all things.. molasses. I drank one jar of regular and one jar of blackstrap over a month. My hair turned darker, my skin cleared up and I needed less sleep. I do not have the craving anymore. I presume it was iron, sulfur and magnesium I craved.

Rev9

Or Archway cookies :-)

[Beorn]

Here's Lyle McDonald's thoughts on the research available on teh issue of Calorie in calorie out.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html


So is a calorie a calorie? Yes and no. Based on the data, my general feeling is this:
1. A sufficient protein intake will always beat out an insufficient protein intake, no matter what you do. Since all of the diets described in this book are based around sufficient protein, this is a non-issue.
2. Assuming caloric intake can be controlled (and protein is adequate of course), shuffling of carbs and fats tends to have a minor, approaching negligble effect.
3. There might be exceptions at the extremes (folks going to single digit bodyfat or extreme obesity) but that doesn’t apply to the majority of folks.

In this respect, given adequate protein, it seems to matter very little what diet is chosen. From a weight or bodyfat standpoint, high carb should be as good as low-carb. Right? Well, no. The problem is that there’s a HUGE assumption built into statement #2 above: that calories can be controlled under a given set of conditions. As has been found repeatedly in the real-world, this simply isn’t a safe assumption.
Put a little bit differently, it might very well be possible to lose all the weight/fat you wanted on a calorie controlled junk-food diet with some high quality protein source. The problem that would probably arise is that most people wouldn’t be able to control their hunger or appetite on such a diet and they’d probably end up eating more in the long run. In eating more, they’d either lose less weight/fat or even gain it. Even if a given dietary approach appears optimal for some reason, if you can’t control your caloric intake, and end up eating more because of it, it won’t produce results.

[farreri]

Can someone speak to the cost of eating primal?
Even though better quality food costs more, you'll soon develop less cravings, so you'll start eating less, which balances out. But even if it costs much more, the dramatic improvement in how you feel will be well worth it to you!

[PatriotOne]

The only problem is, he pushed Sucralose--Splenda. He also tried to make people understand that Stevia is a good sugar substitute, and it is. The problem is, they have Stevia in a lot of grocery stores, like Truvia and PureVia and that stuff is nasty. So it is incumbent for people to do research.

Truvia and PureVia – A Window to the Past or the Future?
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/02/truvia-purevia-past-future/

Truvia and PureVia: The Controversy of Stevia
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/02/stevia-controversy/

Anything ending in -ose (such as sucralose) was forbidden.

I've still got my Atkins book copyrighted in 1992 so went back to look at his sugar substitute recommendations. Quoting from his book:

Artificial sweeteners

"The safest choice comes from a natural shrub; it is called Stevia. It should be used as a pure white powder. For the best results, use Stevia in conjunction with a blend of other non-caloric sweeteners."

"Dieters must determine which artificial sweeteners agree with them, but the following are allowed: saccharine, aspartame*, cyclamate acesulfame-K. Sweeteners such as sorbitol, mannitol, and other hexitols are not allowed, nor are any natural sweeteners ending in the letters -ose, such as maltose, fructose, etc."

The footnote for aspartame reads:

"Although most published scientific studies have proclaimed aspartame to be safe, clinical experience often indicates otherwise. Headaches, irritability, failure to lose weight or to control blood glucose have all been reported and I have confirmed this in many patients. The best advice is to use it sparingly."

Updating for new info. I also have a book published in 2002 and looked up sweeteners. In this one he does reccomend Splenda, which is a total turnaround from his 1992 book. He forbids aspartame products.

I'm pretty sure he would forbid them all at this point with all the research now available and say stick with stevia.

[donnay]

I've been reading up a lot about the relatively new field of "energy psychology" and a lot of those holistic practitioners think that the root of obesity are deep emotional traumas, which make people eat to temporarily numb their emotional pain, just like a drug addict takes drugs to numb their pain. Food addicts are no different. They are just using a different crutch.

Yes, but nutrient deficiencies causes people to be depressed, bi-polar, suicidal and a host of other things too. We need 90 essential nutrients daily. You cannot get them through food only. You need to supplement--but with good supplements! I believe the links to this are much more realistic from my research and it is definitely doable.

I read studies where a majority of Americans are vitamin D deficient--even people who are in the south. For the last 30 plus years we have been told to stay out of the sun, it will cause skin cancer. We have been told to stay away from fat--good saturated fat is needed as brain food and for optimal healthy skin, hair and good cholesterol. You need good cholesterol for vitamin D to work well too!

This is one of the reason why I do not want government telling us what to do. Because too many people blindly trust that government knows what is good for them. It's a false sense of security and in most instances, government has a piss-poor track record. Like; FDA, USDA, EPA--etc...

[Kluge]

A serving is generally one slice of prepackaged bread. Check the back of your Snyder's bread loaf....oh wait, you probably don't have any :D.

Sure don't!

But I did look up "Wonderbread" just for the heck of it, and their nutrition info stated two slices, so I went with the worst case scenario--as I am wont to do.

[AME3]

You are assuming that the folks followed this advice... I don't think so at least for the vast majority anyway. I remember the various recommendations and when I got to MacD's, well, I chose the Big Macs and fries...to hell with the FDA crap. I also noticed 99% of my fellow citizens were doing the same...we eat what we like best and that's usually the worst for us. No point in making it more complicated than it is.


Not only did that gov't food pyramid "guideline" gear people towards a shit diet that often caused weight gain, with little to no fat in your diet, there are a lot of nutrients/vitamins that you can't absorb. Over long periods of time, that can be devastating.

And the new "my plate" guideline looks like it's still pimping low-fat.

ETA: And who the hell can eat 11 servings of grain/day along with everything else?

[mport1]

As a general rule of thumb, do the opposite of whatever the government says. They are almost always lying or wrong.

[Kluge]

You are assuming that the folks followed this advice... I don't think so at least for the vast majority anyway. I remember the various recommendations and when I got to MacD's, well, I chose the Big Macs and fries...to hell with the FDA crap. I also noticed 99% of my fellow citizens were doing the same...we eat what we like best and that's usually the worst for us. No point in making it more complicated than it is.

Plenty of people did follow this advice, including me, to a point. Lots of people in my family too.

Of course, we never ate at McDonald's either--I never had McDonald's until I was in my teens.

[donnay]

Anything ending in -ose (such as sucralose) was forbidden.

I've still got my Atkins book copyrighted in 1992 so went back to look at his sugar substitute recommendations. Quoting from his book:

Artificial sweeteners

"The safest choice comes from a natural shrub; it is called Stevia. It should be used as a pure white powder. For the best results, use Stevia in conjunction with a blend of other non-caloric sweeteners."

"Dieters must determine which artificial sweeteners agree with them, but the following are allowed: saccharine, aspartame*, cyclamate acesulfame-K. Sweeteners such as sorbitol, mannitol, and other hexitols are not allowed, nor are any natural sweeteners ending in the letters -ose, such as maltose, fructose, etc."

The footnote for aspartame reads:

"Although most published scientific studies have proclaimed aspartame to be safe, clinical experience often indicates otherwise. Headaches, irritability, failure to lose weight or to control blood glucose have all been reported and I have confirmed this in many patients. The best advice is to use it sparingly."

Let's look at one of Atkins diet shakes, shall we? http://www.vitacost.com/atkins-advantage-rtd-shake-vanilla

Atkins Advantage RTD Shake Vanilla Directions

Shake well. Served chilled or over ice.

Other Ingredients: Water, dairy protein blend (milk protein concentrate, calcium caseinate, whey protein concentrate), cream, sunflower oil, natural and artificial flavors, cellulose gel, dipotassium phosphate, salt, vitamin mineral mix (sodium ascorbate (vitamin C), zinc gluconate, ferric orthophosphate, dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin e), beta carotene (vitamin a0, biotin, potassium iodide, chromium chloride, niacinamide, manganese gluconate, d-calcium pantothenate, phylloquinone (vitamin K1), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamin hydrochloride (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), folic acid, sodium molybdate, sodium selenite, cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12), acesulfame potassium, carrageenan and sucralose. Contains Milk.


First let me point out those ingredients are loaded with MSG which causes obesity; calcium caseinate, artificial flavors, carrageenan--are all different names that MSG goes under.

http://www.msgmyth.com/hidden_names.html
http://www.realfoodwholehealth.com/2011/05/excitotoxins-msg-and-hidden-names/


Acesulfame potassium is nothing but aspartame. Aspartame is deadly and there is enough independent studies out there that point this out. Aspartame is genetically engineered fecal matter of E.coli. Oooo Yum!

http://www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-sweeteners.html
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/artificial-sweeteners
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/toxic-ingredient/acesulfame-potassium

I also like to point out if these things are so good for you, why do they keep changing the names of the poisons?

[MelissaWV]

You guys do know that "going primal" is an attempt to dumb down thinking critically about food/ingredients, and catch everyone up in a craze that will usually involve selling a product to those that want the even simpler version?


The Rules of Living 10,000 Years Ago:
1. Eat lots of animals, insects and plants.
2. Move around a lot at a slow pace.
3. Lift heavy things.
4. Run really fast every once in a while
5. Get lots of sleep.
6. Play. <- Incidentally, this has one of the lulziest things I've seen in awhile:

Hunter-gatherers have always generally worked fewer hours and have had more leisure time than the average 40-hour-plus American worker. Once the day’s catch was complete or the roots, shoots, nuts and berries had been gathered, our ancestors spent hours involved in various forms of social interaction that we might categorize today as “play.”

That's right! None of that meat had to be prepared, and none of the roots or nuts or berries had to be dealt with and stored, and nothing had to be cooked, and shelters did not have to be repaired... there was just oodles of sit-around time.

7. Get some sunlight every day.
8. Avoid trauma.
9. Avoid poisonous things.
10. Use your mind.

You too can discover the fact that you need to eat more ingredients and fewer processed foods, need to move around more, develop strength (mental and physical), get sleep and sun, and interact in a joyous manner!

Primal Blueprint $8-$12
Primal Cookbook $10-25
Primal Blueprint (21-day version) $11-$14
Beyond Primal $10-$13
Books › Health, Fitness & Dieting › Diets & Weight Loss › "primal" ... Showing 1 - 12 of 52 Results

[PatriotOne]

Let's look at one of Atkins diet shakes, shall we? http://www.vitacost.com/atkins-advantage-rtd-shake-vanilla

Atkins Advantage RTD Shake Vanilla Directions

Shake well. Served chilled or over ice.

Other Ingredients: Water, dairy protein blend (milk protein concentrate, calcium caseinate, whey protein concentrate), cream, sunflower oil, natural and artificial flavors, cellulose gel, dipotassium phosphate, salt, vitamin mineral mix (sodium ascorbate (vitamin C), zinc gluconate, ferric orthophosphate, dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate (vitamin e), beta carotene (vitamin a0, biotin, potassium iodide, chromium chloride, niacinamide, manganese gluconate, d-calcium pantothenate, phylloquinone (vitamin K1), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamin hydrochloride (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), folic acid, sodium molybdate, sodium selenite, cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12), acesulfame potassium, carrageenan and sucralose. Contains Milk.


First let me point out those ingredients are loaded with MSG which causes obesity; calcium caseinate, artificial flavors, carrageenan--are all different names that MSG goes under.

http://www.msgmyth.com/hidden_names.html
http://www.realfoodwholehealth.com/2011/05/excitotoxins-msg-and-hidden-names/


Acesulfame potassium is nothing but aspartame. Aspartame is deadly and there is enough independent studies out there that point this out. Aspartame is genetically engineered fecal matter of E.coli. Oooo Yum!

http://www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-sweeteners.html
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/artificial-sweeteners
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/toxic-ingredient/acesulfame-potassium

I also like to point out if these things are so good for you, why do they keep changing the names of the poisons?

See my updated post above.

[dannno]

Let's look at one of Atkins diet shakes, shall we?

...


First let me point out those ingredients are loaded with MSG which causes obesity; calcium caseinate, artificial flavors, carrageenan--are all different names that MSG goes under.



lol... ya... that's a corporation for you. I wonder if Atkins himself approved those shake ingredients?

You should see the crap they put in some of the weight watchers snacks and tv dinners ("Smart" ones), it's much worse. On top of MSG, you get transfat and all sorts of GMO goodness I'm sure.

[AME3]

Live to the ripe old age of 30...if you're lucky!

You guys do know that "going primal" is an attempt to dumb down thinking critically about food/ingredients, and catch everyone up in a craze that will usually involve selling a product to those that want the even simpler version?


The Rules of Living 10,000 Years Ago:
1. Eat lots of animals, insects and plants.
2. Move around a lot at a slow pace.
3. Lift heavy things.
4. Run really fast every once in a while
5. Get lots of sleep.
6. Play. <- Incidentally, this has one of the lulziest things I've seen in awhile:


That's right! None of that meat had to be prepared, and none of the roots or nuts or berries had to be dealt with and stored, and nothing had to be cooked, and shelters did not have to be repaired... there was just oodles of sit-around time.

7. Get some sunlight every day.
8. Avoid trauma.
9. Avoid poisonous things.
10. Use your mind.

You too can discover the fact that you need to eat more ingredients and fewer processed foods, need to move around more, develop strength (mental and physical), get sleep and sun, and interact in a joyous manner!

Primal Blueprint $8-$12
Primal Cookbook $10-25
Primal Blueprint (21-day version) $11-$14
Beyond Primal $10-$13
Books › Health, Fitness & Dieting › Diets & Weight Loss › "primal" ... Showing 1 - 12 of 52 Results

[MelissaWV]

Live to the ripe old age of 30...if you're lucky!

You're no fun. Next you will say that sitting at home and letting various and sundry delivery methods bring your fruit and veggies to a centralized market where you can pick the most carefully selected ones from a stack isn't really "primal" either.

[donnay]

See my updated post above.

Okay good glad you caught that. I am just as concerned at the push to fill people up with MSG. I liked Atkins a lot, but I think whom ever took over his company have been co-opted in the worst sort of way.

[PatriotOne]

Donnay,

I don't remember Atkins having things like diet shakes while he was alive. Didn't those come out sometime after he died? I think this may explain all that nasty stuff in those new fangled shakes :eek:.

In October 2003, Parthenon Capital LLC and Goldman Sachs both acquired stakes in the company.[1] Following the death of its founder in 2003, the popularity of the diet and demand for Atkins products waned, causing Atkins Nutritionals Inc. to file for bankruptcy in July 2005, citing losses of $340 million.

The company emerged from bankruptcy on January 10, 2006 owned by North Castle Partners, with a softened marketing emphasis on the low-carbohydrate aspect of its products and an attempt to emphasize the overall nutritional value of its line of foods. It now has, in place, a business strategy concentrating on sales of prepared nutrition bars and shakes.

Roark Capital Group bought the company in 2010.[2]

[PatriotOne]

Okay good glad you caught that. I am just as concerned at the push to fill people up with MSG. I liked Atkins a lot, but I think whom ever took over his company have been co-opted in the worst sort of way.

Yeah...was just looking at that. See post above!

[dannno]

So Goldman Sachs is actually responsible for putting MSG and sucralose in Atkins shakes.....

Give me a bullhorn and put me on a street corner, I sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist!!

[heavenlyboy34]

You guys do know that "going primal" is an attempt to dumb down thinking critically about food/ingredients, and catch everyone up in a craze that will usually involve selling a product to those that want the even simpler version?
Not really. Have you read "The Paleo Diet For Athletes"? I don't know about all literature on "Paleo", but it is rooted in a lot of science-including modern biochemistry.

Linus Pauling's research is relevant also.

[Kluge]

You're no fun. Next you will say that sitting at home and letting various and sundry delivery methods bring your fruit and veggies to a centralized market where you can pick the most carefully selected ones from a stack isn't really "primal" either.

Eating mostly "primal" works well for me, and of course it's not genuinely primal, but a mock-up of it.

Have a better suggestion? It seems that you're annoyed by this topic for some reason.

[CaptUSA]

Primal Blueprint $8-$12
Primal Cookbook $10-25
Primal Blueprint (21-day version) $11-$14
Beyond Primal $10-$13
Books › Health, Fitness & Dieting › Diets & Weight Loss › "primal" ... Showing 1 - 12 of 52 Results
You forgot to mention: Mark's Daily Apple.

You can get the same information 100% free. If you want to sign up, you can get additional recipes and a newsletter for free, too.

There is certainly a lot of money to be made, but I really don't think this is the impetus behind it. It's like once you learn a truth, you want to tell others. If you can make a living doing it - even better!

I enjoyed reading the book because it was nicely laid out, but you don't have to buy anything to learn. Most fads tend to offer you just enough to be curious, then make you pay. The Primal Blueprint doesn't do that.

[July]

I liked Atkins a lot, but I think whom ever took over his company have been co-opted in the worst sort of way.

Yeah it was. The company started selling a lot of junk food. But his original book is still good.

[libertyjam]

Let's look at one of Atkins diet shakes, shall we?

First let me point out those ingredients are loaded with MSG which causes obesity; calcium caseinate, artificial flavors, carrageenan--are all different names that MSG goes under.



I sorry Donnay, but just a cursory examination show this statement to be a completely false, at least concerning calcium caseinate (a protein produced from casein in skim milk, with its only relation to MSG is that it contains about 17% glutamic acid a common amino acid) , carrageenan (a linear sulfated polysaccharide extracted from red seaweeds), and MSG (the sodium salt of glutamic acid). They may all contribute to obesity, but they are not even closely chemically the same. Carrageenan is commonly added in soy milk.

[Acala]

You guys do know that "going primal" is an attempt to dumb down thinking critically about food/ingredients, and catch everyone up in a craze that will usually involve selling a product to those that want the even simpler version?


The Rules of Living 10,000 Years Ago:
1. Eat lots of animals, insects and plants.
2. Move around a lot at a slow pace.
3. Lift heavy things.
4. Run really fast every once in a while
5. Get lots of sleep.
6. Play. <- Incidentally, this has one of the lulziest things I've seen in awhile:


That's right! None of that meat had to be prepared, and none of the roots or nuts or berries had to be dealt with and stored, and nothing had to be cooked, and shelters did not have to be repaired... there was just oodles of sit-around time.

7. Get some sunlight every day.
8. Avoid trauma.
9. Avoid poisonous things.
10. Use your mind.

You too can discover the fact that you need to eat more ingredients and fewer processed foods, need to move around more, develop strength (mental and physical), get sleep and sun, and interact in a joyous manner!

Primal Blueprint $8-$12
Primal Cookbook $10-25
Primal Blueprint (21-day version) $11-$14
Beyond Primal $10-$13
Books › Health, Fitness & Dieting › Diets & Weight Loss › "primal" ... Showing 1 - 12 of 52 Results

I eventually bought the book only to have something to give to the people who kept bugging me to know why I was "suddenly" forty pounds lighter and looking ten years younger. There is actually MORE information available for free on the blog than in the book, but you have to track the hyperlinks a bit. That's how I learned it. I spend my money on good food.

Actually, hunter/gatherer cultures that have been studied DO have a LOT of sit around time. It was agriculture that turned human life in back-breaking work.

[Acala]

Live to the ripe old age of 30...if you're lucky!

Pre-agricultural man had about the same longevity as modern man. It was the neolithic "revolution" that brought a dramatic reductionin statutre, and increase in degenerative disease, and a reduction in lifespan.

[July]

Nonsense. If I eat 3 candy bars a day (for a total of 2000 calories), and nothing else, I will not be fat.

Yes but you would still probably be eating far fewer carbs than the average American eats, overall. There are only like 35 grams in a snickers bar...if you ate 3 of those, one for each meal, and nothing else, that is still way under the daily recommended carb intake put out by the FDA. The FDA recommends an excess of 300 grams daily, which is insane, unless you are a very physically active person.

[PatriotOne]

Just looking at the last book published in 2002 before Atkins died. The only product listed in that book that he sold were nutritional supplements - 3 different vitamin supplements. Formula's 1, 2, and 3. The shakes and candy bars, etc., with added poisons, WERE manufactered AFTER he died.

I'm keeping hold of my 1992 Atkins book!

[Acala]

You guys do know that "going primal" is an attempt to dumb down thinking critically about food/ingredients, and catch everyone up in a craze that will usually involve selling a product to those that want the even simpler version?


Here is an example of "going primal" being "dumbing down":

http://ancestryfoundation.org/

This is an international symposium on the science behind "going primal" or paleo or whatever you want to call it. Mark Sisson was there. All those scientists and health professionals getting together to dumb us all down with their research.

[awake]

The Atkins, the Primal diet, the vegitarin diet and the thousands of others...This is just the governments crackpot attempt. The official food guide is government marketing for speicial interest groups "concerned" with your "health and safety".

[donnay]

Just looking at the last book published in 2002 before Atkins died. The only product listed in that book that he sold were nutritional supplements - 3 different vitamin supplements. Formula's 1, 2, and 3. The shakes and candy bars, etc., with added poisons, WERE manufactered AFTER he died.

I'm keeping hold of my 1992 Atkins book!

Yep you better. Atkins was definitely onto to some real breakthroughs. I even liked much of the Stillman/Atkins research. Nevertheless you need proper nutrients for your body to have optimum health. 90 essential nutrients is a must daily, you cannot get them all through food.

[donnay]

I sorry Donnay, but just a cursory examination show this statement to be a completely false, at least concerning calcium caseinate (a protein produced from casein in skim milk, with its only relation to MSG is that it contains about 17% glutamic acid a common amino acid) , carrageenan (a linear sulfated polysaccharide extracted from red seaweeds), and MSG (the sodium salt of glutamic acid). They may all contribute to obesity, but they are not even closely chemically the same. Carrageenan is commonly added in soy milk.

Read up about the hidden names of MSG.

"Processed free glutamic acid (MSG) is created when protein is either partially or fully broken apart into its constituent amino acids, or glutamic acid is secreted from selected bacteria. A protein can be broken into its constituent amino acids in a number of ways (autolysis, hydrolysis, enzymolysis, and/or fermentation). In general, these processes are referred to as 'hydrolyzation' of protein. When a protein is hydrolyzed, the amino acid chains in the protein are broken, and individual amino acids are freed. Acids, enzymes, and/or fermentation processes are used to hydrolyze protein...

"Today, the glutamic acid component of the food additive monosodium glutamate is generally made by bacterial or microbial fermentation wherein bacteria used are often, if not always, genetically engineered. In this method, bacteria are grown aerobically in a liquid nutrient medium. The bacteria have the ability to excrete glutamic acid they synthesize outside of their cell membrane into the liquid nutrient medium in which they are grown. The glutamic acid is then separated from the fermentation broth by filtration, concentration, acidification, and crystallization, and, through the addition of sodium, converted to its monosodium salt."
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/

http://www.msgmyth.com/hidden_names.html
http://www.msgexposed.com/hidden-sources-of-msg-monosodium-glutamate-on-food-ingredient-labels/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/12/how-to-find-hidden-msg-on-food-labels.aspx


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiVDY-prk4


I am highly sensitive to MSG, so I know within hours and sometimes minutes when I have consumed something with MSG. However, now I realize that the supplement Taurine (http://healthwyze.org/index.php/neutralizing-msg.html) is the antidote for MSG poisoning.

[MelissaWV]

Eating mostly "primal" works well for me, and of course it's not genuinely primal, but a mock-up of it.

Have a better suggestion? It seems that you're annoyed by this topic for some reason.

One-size-fits-all dieting fads have come and gone for years, and there's a cultish slant to the way people adhere to them without thinking about the core point (read other posts in this thread annoyed at the "shakes" and other nonsense added to Atkins... do you think others are as bothered, or do you think that people just drink them because they are "Atkins" and will make them thin?).

Another one will be along in five years to "correct" the primal/paleo trend.

It's more amusement at folks championing this like the Second Coming, chanting the name as some kind of prayer. THIS time it's different! THIS time someone has written a book/blog that solves all of my personal dietary needs! While this site is way above the average when it comes to knowing what the general point is supposed to be, and trying to stick to it, there are far more people just looking for someone else to make a list for them of what they should and should not eat, how much, how often, etc..

If you don't see how this clinging need ties in to the same need those people have for someone handing them Cliff's Notes to just about everything (including politics) then perhaps it's just me seeing it, shaking my head, and laughing to myself :)

[MelissaWV]

Here is an example of "going primal" being "dumbing down":

http://ancestryfoundation.org/

This is an international symposium on the science behind "going primal" or paleo or whatever you want to call it. Mark Sisson was there. All those scientists and health professionals getting together to dumb us all down with their research.

You have convinced me.

How many insects per day should I be eating? :D

[Acala]

You have convinced me.

How many insects per day should I be eating? :D

I keep threatening to add insects to my diet (beyond the inevitable stowaways included in my organic vegetables) but have not gotten around to it. I admit to being somewhat squeamish about the potential gushy guts factor. They will need to be crispy.

[MelissaWV]

I keep threatening to add insects to my diet (beyond the inevitable stowaways included in my organic vegetables) but have not gotten around to it. I admit to being somewhat squeamish about the potential gushy guts factor. They will need to be crispy.

All kidding aside, I would do it if I thought there was a good source for "pure" bugs. The ones around here have been exposed to more pesticides than I'd like to ponder, and even if I raised a generation (or got them from bait shops) I'd still be squeamish about what residual chemicals they might harbor.

[tod evans]

Why the need to "name" eating healthy food something different every couple of years?

I have no idea what primal/atkins or any of the rest is, don't care either.

Mother nature seems to have done a pretty good job and if we'd just eat stuff without messing with it we'd be better off.

Milk comes with cream
Beef comes with fat, so does pork
I like my vegies steamed others don't.
Butter is natural, margarine isn't.
Starch will make you fat if you eat too much.
Fruit and berry's in season are delicious, imported stuff not-so-much.

Doesn't seem that difficult to me..

[PatriotOne]

Can someone speak to the cost of eating primal? It comes up regularly at the Fisharmor house but never gets acted on because it'll sting.

I'm spending about $200-$225 a month for one person to eat primal. It could be a lot less if I stuck with cheaper cuts of meat, but I buy things like prime rib roasts, expensive steaks, scallops, salmon, etc. If I was to avg. $3.50 a lb for my meats (using more chicken, hanburger, pork loins, etc.) and eat appx a pound a day of it, I could buy my meat for $105 a month easily. The rest is pretty much veggies, butter, eggs, creamer, mayo, oils, etc. for me.

[July]

Atkins didn't invent the science behind his diet. It wasn't anything new and it isn't a fad, except that it came out during the height of the low fat fad in the 90s. We are still in the "low fat" fad even today, nothing has changed, except that more people have greater access online to research about nutrition. Of course when it became popular, companies started coming out with "low carb" versions of everything, and it became a fad. The same thing is going on with "gluten free" right now. Companies have jumped on the bandwagon with gluten free junk food. Call it co-opting, if you will. You will always be steered back to the junk food.

[heavenlyboy34]

Why the need to "name" eating healthy food something different every couple of years?

I have no idea what primal/atkins or any of the rest is, don't care either.

Mother nature seems to have done a pretty good job and if we'd just eat stuff without messing with it we'd be better off.

Milk comes with cream
Beef comes with fat, so does pork
I like my vegies steamed others don't.
Butter is natural, margarine isn't.
Starch will make you fat if you eat too much.
Fruit and berry's in season are delicious, imported stuff not-so-much.

Doesn't seem that difficult to me..
Because we aren't hunter-gatherers anymore (unless you're fire11 and "live in nature" ;) ). Since we live in "unnatural" environments (relative to the original **** sapien sapien), we have to adapt. I personally prefer the term "lifestyle" over "dieting". I only have general rules of thumb (like a fistful of protein and a bunch of veggies per meal) and improvise from there. If your lifestyle is too complicated, you're not going to stick with it long term. That's one of the reasons I like primal stuff. No counting calories or any fancy maneuvers. :cool:

[heavenlyboy34]

Atkins didn't invent the science behind his diet. It wasn't anything new and it isn't a fad, except that it came out during the height of the low fat fad in the 90s. We are still in the "low fat" fad even today, nothing has changed, except that more people have greater access online to research about nutrition. Of course when it became popular, companies started coming out with "low carb" versions of everything, and it became a fad. The same thing is going on with "gluten free" right now. Companies have jumped on the bandwagon with gluten free junk food. Call it co-opting, if you will. You will always be steered back to the junk food.
Excellent point. :cool:

[Anti Federalist]

I was just thinking about how I need more wooden barrels in my life.:confused:

Can someone speak to the cost of eating primal? It comes up regularly at the Fisharmor house but never gets acted on because it'll sting.

That made me chuckle.

FTR it was "copper".

[July]

Excellent point. :cool:

And why is it so? There is no incentive for companies to give you want you, the consumer, really want...as long as the ingredients used to make junk food are kept artificially cheap by the government. There is no big monoploy money to be had. A real free market could change the game, though. Until then, we will always be steered towards the subsidized product, no matter what the science says, or how we try to vote otherwise with our dollars.

[heavenlyboy34]

And why is it so? There is no incentive for companies to give you want you, the consumer, really want...as long as the ingredients used to make junk food are kept artificially cheap by the government. There is no big monoploy money to be had. A real free market could change the game, though. Until then, we will always be steered towards the subsidized product, no matter what the science says, or how we try to vote otherwise with our dollars.

I was referring specifically to this-
Atkins didn't invent the science behind his diet. It wasn't anything new and it isn't a fad, except that it came out during the height of the low fat fad in the 90s. We are still in the "low fat" fad even today, nothing has changed, except that more people have greater access online to research about nutrition.

[July]

I was referring specifically to this-

Oh well, ok then. :o

I would recommend Gary Taubes' books, to anyone interested, he goes through the history of where the low fat theory comes from, and how the govt adopted it.

[The Northbreather]

Here's Dr. Ludwig's colleague, Dr. Lustig laying out their research on the subject. This is worth watching in full.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

[Brian4Liberty]

Food is fuel. Candy bars (to follow your example) also contain a bunch of processed ingredients, or at very least a burst of sugar/caffeine that gives you a generally short-lived energy surge.
...

Snickers satisfies you! ;)


You have convinced me.

How many insects per day should I be eating? :D

Within the past week, I woke up to find a very large silverfish and a very large spider walking across my face. I suspect the spider was looking for the silverfish. I like spiders, as I hope that they are eating the other insect residents of the living areas of the house. Rumor has it that people who sleep very well just inhale all of these night time visitors.

[devil21]

I think it's actually 22 slices, since one serving is generally 2 slices of bread.

Ouch. That's got to be almost an entire loaf of bread.

Have fun on the toilet the next day. Better take a few Advil first.