Where are all the dead bodies from swine flu?

[John F Kennedy III]

Where are all the dead bodies from swine flu?


CDC’s new estimates of half a million dead prove too comedic to ignore

Mike Adams
Natural News
Thursday, June 28, 2012

Until a couple of days ago, the CDC had claimed that the swine flu pandemic of 2009 killed roughly 18,500 people. That’s been the “official” number for the last three years. But suddenly, in a burst of revisionist inspiration, the CDC has retroactive altered medical history and announced that as many as half a million people may have died from swine flu after all! (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/swine-flu-likely-claimed-quarter-million-liv…)

And yet, somehow, we all missed those 500,000 dead bodies in 2009, which would have overflowed from the morgues, filled local gymnasiums and been found dropping dead across our streets. If 500,000+ people died from swine flu, modern cities would have been littered with dead bodies like something from a war scene. After all, the entire Vietnam War killed roughly 50,000 Americans, and the CDC is claiming swine flu killed ten times as many people.

So where is the war zone? Where are all the bodies? I don’t recall any pictures in the news of bodies stacking up anywhere. No reports of morgues overflowing with dead people. No mass graves. No footage from the TV news showing the horrors of stacked body bags. None of that ever happened!

Half a million people died but somehow nobody noticed

Apparently the CDC’s position is that 500,000+ people died and somehow no one noticed, if you can believe that. Yep, while we were all watching Dancing With the Stars, hundreds of thousands of our brothers and sisters were dropping dead on the streets around the world, and then they somehow just vanished into thin air and haven’t been heard from since. (Insert Twilight Zone music here…)

Thank goodness the CDC has finally found them all! Thanks to the agency’s “computer modeling” — a euphemism for the less technical term “making sh!t up” — all those 500,000+ deaths have finally been accounted for!


But where are the bodies, then? Any cop knows that if you think you have a murder, you need a body. No body means no murder… probably just a missing person instead. So where are the CDC’s bodies?

The only rational conclusion is that the CDC is hiding all the bodies! That’s why we haven’t seen them. Yes, they’ve dispatched teams of literal body snatchers to whisk away all the dead swine flu bodies before we would notice anything. Check the nursing homes… are your parents still there? Maybe they got snatched by the CDC and you just never noticed…

Bodies for the zombie apocalypse?

So somewhere deep in the CDC’s basement, alongside the thawed autism brains and level-4 bioweapons they’ve been feverishly working on releasing soon in a Chicago bus station, there’s a gruesome collection of hundreds of thousands of bodies of swine flu victims. You might wonder, then, for what purpose they are keeping a few hundred thousand bodies on ice.

The answer should be obvious: The CDC is going to re-animate all those bodies and send them back onto the streets during the next zombie apocalypse that the CDC has already warned us about! (http://www.naturalnews.com/032454_zombie_apocalypse_CDC.html)

According to the CDC’s own words posted on May 16th, 2011 — and no, I’m seriously not making this up:

Where do zombies come from and why do they love eating brains so much? …Zombies would take over entire countries, roaming city streets eating anything living that got in their way. The proliferation of this idea has led many people to wonder – How do I prepare for a zombie apocalypse? (http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatters/2011/05/preparedness-101-zom…)

So now it’s all becoming clear. The CDC is hoarding swine flu bodies (which we somehow never noticed were missing), and it’s going to re-animate them using Frankenvaccines, then unleash them onto the streets of America as the much-anticipated zombie apocalypse.

Ah, now it all makes sense. I’m glad there’s a rational explanation behind it all, because for a minute there I thought the CDC was just fabricating numbers out of thin air in order to push more vaccines.


original article here:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036317_CDC_Swine_Flu_death_estimates.html

[Zippyjuan]

A couple of points. The information does not come from the Centers for Disease Control (it is a article in the UK publication, "The Lancet") and it is not an estimated total of US deaths but deaths worldwide. Proper link to original article (one in post above not working): http://ca.news.yahoo.com/swine-flu-likely-claimed-quarter-million-lives-study-232858163.html That is still a lot and probably includes people who died from any version of the flu.
From the original article:


The A(H1N1) "swine flu" 2009 pandemic probably claimed over a quarter of a million lives -- 15 times more than the 18,500 reported, a paper in The Lancet Infectious Diseases journal said Tuesday.

The elevated toll underlined the need for better planning and vaccine distribution, said a team of epidemiologists and physicians who made a statistical model based on population and infection estimates to present what they believe is a more accurate picture of the pandemic's reach.

"This study is one of the first to provide a global estimate of deaths caused by the 2009 H1N1 virus," lead author Fatimah Dawood of the US government's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told AFP in an email exchange.

"Unlike most other mortality estimates for the 2009 pandemic, this study includes estimated mortality for countries in southeast Asia and Africa where surveillance data on influenza-associated mortality are limited."


Between 250,000 and 500,000 people die of seasonal influenza every year, according to the WHO.

In the flu 2009 season, H1N1 was the "predominant virus", said Dawood.

But comparing the numbers alone did not yield an accurate picture, she stressed, as 80 percent of swine flu victims were younger than 65, while the yearly seasonal flu mainly tends to claim older victims.

The researchers said 51 percent of swine flu deaths was estimated to have occurred in southeast Asia and Africa, which account for 38 percent of the world's population.


I would definately agree that the Swine Flu was very heavily over-hyped.

In an average year, about 30,000 people in the United States die from flu related causes. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm

The 36,000 estimate was presented in a 2003 study by CDC scientists published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), using similar statistical modeling techniques, but only refers to a period from 1990-91 through 1998-99. During those years, the number of estimated deaths ranged from 17,000 to 52,000, with an average of about 36,000. The JAMA study also looked at seasonal influenza-associated deaths over a 23 year period, from 1976-1977 and 1998-1999. During that period, estimates of respiratory and circulatory influenza-associated deaths ranged from about 5,000 to about 52,000, with an average of about 25,000.

[cajuncocoa]

It's almost time to push the flu vaccine again. Gotta sell that fear!

[Zippyjuan]

There was a lot of fearmongering on both sides of this one- the anti-vaccine folks saying that getting shots would kill everybody and the ant-flu folks saying H1N1 could kill everyone. Both were wrong. Natural News is a good source for fear.

[liberdom]

Answer this one first, where are all the dead bodies from vaccines?

[oyarde]

Well every year , about worldwide , in a "good " yr for 'flu", probably a quarter million die from Influenza of every type , probably , 1 million die ea yr from malaria . I do not understand it , children , old people , malnutrition , all that , understand , maybe.... but I have been close to death many times .... when young .... The killer flu in the 60's , the bad flu vaccine in the 70's , malaria , Dengue fever , pneumonia , brown recluse spiders , knife , shrapnel , firearm wounds etc ... By , about 1918 , that Flu killed probably , anywhere from 6 % to 20 % of the world population , it killed so many , nobody even knows .....

[oyarde]

If , I had to guess , these , quarter million bodies are where they have always been , third world , type or tropic countries .... ??

[donnay]

"With swine flu fading in the UK (projected winter deaths of 65,000 have been downgraded to 1,000, and new cases are decreasing) the UK government has been left with millions of unused vaccines, and (unlike its contract with Baxter) no clear break-clause to get out of its contract with GlaxoSmithKlein. Although the amount paid for vaccines has not been disclosed, it likely cost the UK government several hundred million pounds. Other governments are also in a similar position: the US ordered 251 million doses of the vaccine, and France and Germany are aiming to cut back on their orders considerably. To say that the case for the pandemic has been over-estimated appears to be an understatement. Now, the WHO has announced that it is to investigate whether or not it bowed to pressure from drugs companies to overplay the threat."

"The Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly has also announced an investigation into the matter after a resolution [pdf] from Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Health, was adopted. Dr. Wodarg labelled swine flu as a "false pandemic", and claims in the resolution that '"in order to promote their patented drugs and vaccines against flu, pharmaceutical companies influenced scientists and official agencies responsible for public health standards to alarm governments worldwide and make them squander tight health resources for inefficient vaccine strategies, and needlessly expose millions of healthy people to the risk of an unknown amount of side-effects of insufficiently-tested vaccines."' By some estimates, GSK was expected to net over £1 billion from vaccine sales."

Source:
http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/01/15/0254217/who-to-investigate-handling-of-swine-flu-information-vaccine-orders

[RickyJ]

Answer this one first, where are all the dead bodies from vaccines?

Answer this one before that one.
Why are cases of autism sky-rocketing with conclusive evidence that vaccines are partly responsible for this being ignored by the corporate media?

[donnay]

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/Brocke1964/wrathofchan7.jpg

[donnay]

Answer this one first, where are all the dead bodies from vaccines?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/Brocke1964/Sane/RedQueen3.jpg

[Roxi]

Killed 500,000 people where? The entire world? Because that would be 0.000007% of the population. Hardly noticeable. That said this article is ridiculous and a decent example of why so many wont take the good articles on NN seriously.

[liberdom]

Answer this one before that one.
Why are cases of autism sky-rocketing with conclusive evidence that vaccines are partly responsible for this being ignored by the corporate media?

I do not admit autism is skyrocketing. Autism is being diagnosed more, as is ADHD, PTSD, OCD, so you expect to find more patients after you find a name to label them.

There is not one single blind study that can even show correlation of autism to vaccination, Wakefield has been discredited and his claim was never reproduced even once. I am willing to grant causation if somebody can even show a good blind study of correlation , but pathetically, there isn't.

You don't seem to accept any other claim based on one discredited and unreproduced study, do you?

[liberdom]

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/Brocke1964/Sane/RedQueen3.jpg

That's not an answer, do you know how to read a question?

[liberdom]

Killed 500,000 people where? The entire world? Because that would be 0.000007% of the population. Hardly noticeable. That said this article is ridiculous and a decent example of why so many wont take the good articles on NN seriously.

Looks like we got a swine flu holocaust denier

[donnay]

That's not an answer, do you know how to read a question?

Oh sure, but your questions are rather stupid to begin with. How are we to know the figures when government protects Big pHARMa?

[liberdom]

Oh sure, but your questions are rather stupid to begin with. How are we to know the figures when government protects Big pHARMa?

You could've just said that. So let me get this straight, you have people waiting in line to sue for autism causing, but none sue for wrongful death?

[donnay]

Killed 500,000 people where? The entire world? Because that would be 0.000007% of the population. Hardly noticeable. That said this article is ridiculous and a decent example of why so many wont take the good articles on NN seriously.

Natural News in all their articles they always post hyperlinks to all the ridiculous claims.

Swine flu likely claimed quarter of a million lives: study
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/swine-flu-likely-claimed-quarter-million-lives-study-232858163.html

[liberdom]

Natural News in all their articles they always post hyperlinks to all the ridiculous claims.

Swine flu likely claimed quarter of a million lives: study
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/swine-flu-likely-claimed-quarter-million-lives-study-232858163.html

If they all died in Africa, what pics would you be looking for?

[donnay]

You could've just said that. So let me get this straight, you have people waiting in line to sue for autism causing, but none sue for wrongful death?

2011
Supreme Court: No, You Can’t Sue Drugmakers Over Vaccine Injury Claims
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/02/23/supreme-court-no-you-cant-sue-drugmakers-over-vaccine-injury-claims/

[donnay]

If they all died in Africa, what pics would you be looking for?

Excerpt from the article you didn't read too well.


Between 250,000 and 500,000 people die of seasonal influenza every year, according to the WHO.

In the flu 2009 season, H1N1 was the "predominant virus", said Dawood.

But comparing the numbers alone did not yield an accurate picture, she stressed, as 80 percent of swine flu victims were younger than 65, while the yearly seasonal flu mainly tends to claim older victims.

The researchers said 51 percent of swine flu deaths was estimated to have occurred in southeast Asia and Africa, which account for 38 percent of the world's population.

The team hoped the work would help improve planning and surveillance, as well as boost vaccine production and delivery, especially to Africa and southeast Asia, ahead of future pandemics.

Dubbed swine flu, the virus affected some 214 countries and territories after it was uncovered in Mexico and the United States in April 2009.

The WHO declared it a pandemic in June that year. It was declared over in August 2010.

[liberdom]

Excerpt from the article you didn't read too well.

Affected, I wonder where the remaining 49 percent deaths were.

[liberdom]

2011
Supreme Court: No, You Can’t Sue Drugmakers Over Vaccine Injury Claims
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2011/02/23/supreme-court-no-you-cant-sue-drugmakers-over-vaccine-injury-claims/

Wrongful death counts as injury? Ok, even if it does, no blogs or rumors of people speaking out? All gagged?

[donnay]

Affected, I wonder where the remaining 49 percent deaths were.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4521759374180937&pid=1.1

[donnay]

Wrongful death counts as injury? Ok, even if it does, no blogs or rumors of people speaking out? All gagged?

If you cannot sue Big pHARMa over vaccine injuries, what makes you think you can prove that a vaccine cause a death?

[Zippyjuan]

Excerpt from the article you didn't read too well.

Don't forget this line too which I am glad you included:

Between 250,000 and 500,000 people die of seasonal influenza every year, according to the WHO.

The swine flu death totals world wide were average compared to the normal number of flu related deaths. No huge pandemic- just a typical flu season.

But this should have told us the article was not serious:

So somewhere deep in the CDC’s basement, alongside the thawed autism brains and level-4 bioweapons they’ve been feverishly working on releasing soon in a Chicago bus station, there’s a gruesome collection of hundreds of thousands of bodies of swine flu victims. You might wonder, then, for what purpose they are keeping a few hundred thousand bodies on ice.

The answer should be obvious: The CDC is going to re-animate all those bodies and send them back onto the streets during the next zombie apocalypse that the CDC has already warned us about! (http://www.naturalnews.com/032454_zo...lypse_CDC.html)

According to the CDC’s own words posted on May 16th, 2011 — and no, I’m seriously not making this up:

Where do zombies come from and why do they love eating brains so much? …Zombies would take over entire countries, roaming city streets eating anything living that got in their way. The proliferation of this idea has led many people to wonder – How do I prepare for a zombie apocalypse? (http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmat...dness-101-zom…)

[Demigod]

From those 250-500 K deaths 80% are probably in Africa and Southern Asia.In my country there was only 1 confirmed death from swine flu ( in a population of 2,3 million ) and he was already hospitalized before being infected with swine flu and had kidney failure.

Even from all of those season flu deaths most of them are probably in the same place Africa and Southern Asia .

[John F Kennedy III]

Donnay smacking down the trolls once again. Love it :D

[donnay]

Don't forget this line too which I am glad you included:


The swine flu death totals world wide were average compared to the normal number of flu related deaths. No huge pandemic- just a typical flu season.


I know that, the hype was coming out of the WHO, if your remember correctly. Margaret Chan. Of course then the media ran with it.

[Zippyjuan]

Answer this one first, where are all the dead bodies from vaccines?

Just curious- does anybody have any figures- even guestimates- of annual deaths due to vaccination?

I don't buy into the fear some have of vaccines but do feel that the flu vaccine is for most people a waste. The formulation for this year's vaccine is based on what the most common variant of the flu was arround last year. If you were exposed (even if you did not get sick from it) you should have protection against it this year. If there is a new strain (which there usually is since most are now immune to the old one) then it is not going to be in the vaccine so no protection from that. It may help high risk people but the average person probably does not need it.

[Weston White]

Looks like we got a swine flu holocaust denier

Oh, let me guess, you wacked out, conspiracy nutter! Next you will be claiming that that Third Reich did actually murder and/or “Holocaust” 2,740 of its victim’s seven-days-a-week -or 114 murders every single hour throughout a 24-hour day- without yield over a course of six-years (e.g., the cremation of a single average sized human body requires a consistent 1200-1800 degrees Fahrenheit over a course of approximately two-hours, not including the cool down period) and then additionally, killed like 60-million adversary troops in battle!

* Opps, never mind, it appears that my post was too late!

[KingNothing]

Answer this one before that one.
Why are cases of autism sky-rocketing with conclusive evidence


Because the definition of autism has been changed to include individuals that exhibit a wider range of characteristics? Also, there's a chance that better medical technology is keeping fetuses and infants alive that may have otherwise died.




that vaccines are partly responsible for this being ignored by the corporate media?


:rolleyes:

[Noob]

Cremated, place in the food supply?

[fisharmor]

Had this conversation last night....

Father-in-law: You know they just found a mosquito with West Nile Virus in our county, so you shouldn't go outside with the girls unless you're wearing deet.
Me: Oh? So, what's the deal with West Nile Virus?
FIL: Well, it's a serious disease.
Me: Oh? How serious?
FIL: Well, you can die from it.
Me: You can die of pneumonia. But I know multiple people who have had it and yet walk the Earth....
FIL: ...............


Sometimes I love messing with chicken littles.

[DerailingDaTrain]

A kid I went to school with got this and was very sick and in the hospital for some time...

that is all

[donnay]

Just curious- does anybody have any figures- even guestimates- of annual deaths due to vaccination?

I don't buy into the fear some have of vaccines but do feel that the flu vaccine is for most people a waste.

So I take it you are in the anti-flu vaccine camp?

As far as vaccine deaths are concerned type in to your search engine: Vaccine deaths 2011. There is 5,460,000 results for you to sift through.

[liberdom]

So I take it you are in the anti-flu vaccine camp?

As far as vaccine deaths are concerned type in to your search engine: Vaccine deaths 2011. There is 5,460,000 results for you to sift through.

He's in the anti-autism conspiracy camp as far as I know.

My guestimate of vaccine deaths is between 0 and 5,000, that is, less than 1% of people who died from swine flu. Autism, I'm not sure. Correct me if you can find actual figures.

[donnay]

He's in the anti-autism conspiracy camp as far as I know.

My guestimate of vaccine deaths is between 0 and 5,000, that is, less than 1% of people who died from swine flu. Autism, I'm not sure. Correct me if you can find actual figures.


Two idioms come to mind, when trying to discuss things with you.

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink."

"Cast pearls before swine"

I am not anti-vaccines as much as I am anti-corruption. Big pHARMa is in bed with Big Government.

[donnay]

double post

[liberdom]

Two idioms come to mind, when trying to discuss things with you.

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink."

"Cast pearls before swine"

I am not anti-vaccines as much as I am anti-corruption. Big pHARMa is in bed with Big Government.

When I asked how many people died from vaccines, you didn't give me an answer.

I later offered my guestimate, in hopes you can help me find more info, you again, gave no answer.

That is hardly "leading me to water". Now, you could've just said "I don't know" but instead you said "We can't possibly know because government is in bed with them"...etc. If you're not anti-vaccine, fine. But you keep making claims that'll just lead to more questions.

[donnay]

When I asked how many people died from vaccines, you didn't give me an answer.

I later offered my guestimate, in hopes you can help me find more info, you again, gave no answer.

That is hardly "leading me to water". Now, you could've just said "I don't know" but instead you said "We can't possibly know because government is in bed with them"...etc. If you're not anti-vaccine, fine. But you keep making claims that'll just lead to more questions.


I am not a search engine. Do the research yourself. You might gain knowledge that way. People do not gain much knowledge when they are contrarians and spood-fed information that they have no intentions of following up on.

My time is much more valuable then to argue with trolls.

Good day.

[Weston White]

When I asked how many people died from vaccines, you didn't give me an answer.

I later offered my guestimate, in hopes you can help me find more info, you again, gave no answer.

That is hardly "leading me to water". Now, you could've just said "I don't know" but instead you said "We can't possibly know because government is in bed with them"...etc. If you're not anti-vaccine, fine. But you keep making claims that'll just lead to more questions.

1. Do you believe that injecting is relational in its affect, chemical reaction, and bodily consequence as consuming (e.g., you eat tuna that contains mercury, so what is the big deal about having it injected directly into your arm)?

2. Do you believe that mercury likely works to increase intelligence or at least possesses other benefits, such as increased health?

3. Are you aware that injections contain toxic half-life chemicals that are able to pass the blood-to-brain barrier (permanently infecting your brain), such as aluminum adjuvants, thermosal-mercury, squalene, etc?

4. Are you aware that vaccinations are grown using embryonated chicken eggs?

5. Do you agree that most all vaccinations (if not all) serve little to no beneficial purpose, for there are hundreds of strand variations in circulation from one locality to another that will be largely or otherwise entirely unaffected by the vaccine (further noting that these strands are also very likely evolving through the prolonged manufacturing process involved in the mass-distribution of such vaccinations)?

6. Do you think that lithium should be added to the public water supply similarly as sodium fluoride already is (i.e., for the overall good of the public)?


Other than that, I can only suggest to you, Emperor Qin Shi Huang Di that truly, I hope you enjoy your intake of mercury.

[jmdrake]

There was a lot of fearmongering on both sides of this one- the anti-vaccine folks saying that getting shots would kill everybody and the ant-flu folks saying H1N1 could kill everyone. Both were wrong. Natural News is a good source for fear.


Answer this one first, where are all the dead bodies from vaccines?

That's easy to answer. Few people "took the damn vaccines". Ron Paul pointed out that the last time there was a swine flu scare more people died from the vaccine than from the swine flue. But we all know Ron Paul is a "crazy conspiracy theorist" right? :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiTStZtrlE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX1mhiKEPtQ

[coastie]

That's easy to answer. Few people "took the damn vaccines". Ron Paul pointed out that the last time there was a swine flu scare more people died from the vaccine than from the swine flue. But we all know Ron Paul is a "crazy conspiracy theorist" right? :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiTStZtrlE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX1mhiKEPtQ

Some of the regulars would remember, I told Uncle Sam(military arm) to go fuck himself with his vaccines-and I won, didn't have to take it because I was 6 months out until end of enlistment. Guess it wasn't that big of an emergency, huh?

[Weston White]

As to the figure data requested, there does not appear to be much data publicly available on this subject -gee, I wonder why. This Website seems to at least be thorough and objective: http://www.vaclib.org/intro/intro6.htm

Annually estimated adverse affects from vaccinations: 100,000 - 1,400,000, with 10,000 to 14,000 actually reported per annum.

Annually estimated deaths from vaccinations: 1,400 – 25,000, with 146 to 251 actually reported per annum. And involving infants: 3,800, with 86 to 170 actually being reported per annum.

[John F Kennedy III]

I am not a search engine. Do the research yourself. You might gain knowledge that way. People do not gain much knowledge when they are contrarians and spood-fed information that they have no intentions of following up on.

My time is much more valuable then to argue with trolls.

Good day.

This. Which is why I put them on ignore. It is pointless to debate a troll, no matter how right you are.

[John F Kennedy III]

As to the figure data requested, there does not appear to be much data publicly available on this subject -gee, I wonder why. This Website seems to at least be thorough and objective: http://www.vaclib.org/intro/intro6.htm

Annually estimated adverse affects from vaccinations: 100,000 - 1,400,000, with 10,000 to 14,000 actually reported per annum.

Annually estimated deaths from vaccinations: 1,400 – 25,000, with 146 to 251 actually reported per annum. And involving infants: 3,800, with 86 to 170 actually being reported per annum.

The government suppresses data on anything that effects its pocketbook.

[liberdom]

1. Do you believe that injecting is relational in its affect, chemical reaction, and bodily consequence as consuming (e.g., you eat tuna that contains mercury, so what is the big deal about having it injected directly into your arm)?


Don't understand this question.



2. Do you believe that mercury likely works to increase intelligence or at least possesses other benefits, such as increased health?


Haven't heard that before.



3. Are you aware that injections contain toxic half-life chemicals that are able to pass the blood-to-brain barrier (permanently infecting your brain), such as aluminum adjuvants, thermosal-mercury, squalene, etc?


wait, what chemicals can't pass the blood to brain barrier?



4. Are you aware that vaccinations are grown using embryonated chicken eggs?


No, but what's the problem? Chicken flue?




5. Do you agree that most all vaccinations (if not all) serve little to no beneficial purpose,


No.



for there are hundreds of strand variations in circulation from one locality to another that will be largely or otherwise entirely unaffected by the vaccine (further noting that these strands are also very likely evolving through the prolonged manufacturing process involved in the mass-distribution of such vaccinations)?

6. Do you think that lithium should be added to the public water supply similarly as sodium fluoride already is (i.e., for the overall good of the public)?

Other than that, I can only suggest to you, Emperor Qin Shi Huang Di that truly, I hope you enjoy your intake of mercury.

who is qin shi hunag di?

[liberdom]

The government suppresses data on anything that effects its pocketbook.

yet the government is going bankrupt...

[liberdom]

As to the figure data requested, there does not appear to be much data publicly available on this subject -gee, I wonder why.


It's just impossible that it could be because it's not true or not existent?



This Website seems to at least be thorough and objective: http://www.vaclib.org/intro/intro6.htm

Annually estimated adverse affects from vaccinations: 100,000 - 1,400,000, with 10,000 to 14,000 actually reported per annum.

Annually estimated deaths from vaccinations: 1,400 – 25,000, with 146 to 251 actually reported per annum. And involving infants: 3,800, with 86 to 170 actually being reported per annum.

25,000? Interesting.

[jmdrake]

The government suppresses data on anything that effects its pocketbook.


yet the government is going bankrupt...

While the government as a corporation may be going bankrupt, those in charge are making out like gangbusters. So are their corporate partners in crime.

[liberdom]

That's easy to answer. Few people "took the damn vaccines". Ron Paul pointed out that the last time there was a swine flu scare more people died from the vaccine than from the swine flue. But we all know Ron Paul is a "crazy conspiracy theorist" right? :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiTStZtrlE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX1mhiKEPtQ

I am more interested in what he was pointing to, than what he says, a person can be mistaken or wrong about facts.

[liberdom]

While the government as a corporation may be going bankrupt, those in charge are making out like gangbusters. So are their corporate partners in crime.

who are those in charge?

[Zippyjuan]

So I take it you are in the anti-flu vaccine camp?

As far as vaccine deaths are concerned type in to your search engine: Vaccine deaths 2011. There is 5,460,000 results for you to sift through.

Anti- flu vaccine in that most people don't need it. Not anti-vaccine because some think it may harm people which I don't agree with. People who want it should be able to get it but it should not be mandatory for everybody (which it isn't).

Thank you for the suggestion to use google- I certainly tried that and while there are lots of search results, the numbers found are quite small.

Let me try some numbers for India which has had a massive increase in vaccination over the last few years.

Death figures:
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-05-29/india/29596453_1_vaccine-deaths-aefi-deaths-public-sector-vaccine-units


128 kids died after vaccine in 2010, govt can't say why
Arun Ram May 29, 2011, 11.53pm IST

CHENNAI: More children in India are dying every year soon after being vaccinated, and the government has no clue why. Union health ministry statistics obtained under the Right to Information Act show that 128 children died in 2010 due to adverse effects after immunization (AEFI). That count has risen in the past three years, with 111 such deaths in 2008 and 116 in 2009.


Of the 218 deaths last year, reasons for 72 have been categorized under 'unknown', 48 as 'coincidental', four as due to 'vaccine reaction' and two due to 'injection reaction' and 'programme error'. Maharashtra registered the largest number of deaths (28), followed by Uttar Pradesh (18) and Andhra Pradesh (11). Tamil Nadu registered eight deaths.

If anybody is curious, here is a link to childhood vaccines given in India: http://infolona.com/marriage_sex_pregnancy_children/vaccination_for_kids/find

So we have a total of deaths for India- for three years, 2008, 2009, and 2010. How many vaccinations were distributed in India? That will give us some idea of the risk of death from vaccines.

Just in their polio campaign, 900 MILLION doses were administered in 2009 (doses are not necessarily the same as people vaccinated but even if you figured say three doses per person that is still 300 million or the entire population of the USA). Total vaccines given wouild be an even bigger number- easily over 1 billion. So 218 deaths in one year out of a billion doses of vaccines given is an unbelievably small number.

http://www.unicefusa.org/news/news-from-the-field/india-achieves-major-polio-milestone.html

The numbers are astounding—some 900 million doses of the oral polio vaccine were administered in 2011 alone by approximately 8,500 mobilizers. More than 170 million children under age 5 were vaccinated in two national immunization campaigns, with up to 70 million children in the highest-risk areas vaccinated multiple times.

Compare those numbers with the risk of dying from flu related causes- US population: 300 million. Average annual deaths from flu: 30,000.

If anybody has other figures, we can certainly take a look at those as well.

[donnay]

yet the government is going bankrupt...

They are already bankrupt! They have been bankrupt for almost 80 years.

[John F Kennedy III]

While the government as a corporation may be going bankrupt, those in charge are making out like gangbusters. So are their corporate partners in crime.

Yep. Government is by far the most corrupt part of the US. And of course our biggest obstacle to freedom.

[John F Kennedy III]

They are already bankrupt! They have been bankrupt for almost 80 years.

Ever since we went completely fiat. End the Fed.

[liberdom]

Ever since we went completely fiat. End the Fed.

so the fact it lasted about 100 years (more than my lifetime, or most of ours) tells me one thing : who cares about "real money"?

[Zippyjuan]

so the fact it lasted about 100 years (more than my lifetime, or most of ours) tells me one thing : who cares about "real money"?

Technically, we went "completely" fiat in 1972 when Nixon formally closed the "gold window" though we left a gold standard before that as far as citizens are concerned- but it was not 100 years ago. Gold certificates stopped being issued in 1933 but gold and silver certificates in circulation were still valid for several decades later. If you want to count from when the Fed came into existance, that would be about a hundred years but we have not been fiat as long as we have had the Fed.

Now if you consider "bankrupt" as the government owing money because it spent more than it took in, we have been in that condition almost our entire history. Chart showing publicly held Federal Debt as percent of GDP from 1790 to 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Publicly_Held_Federal_Debt_1790-2009.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Publicly_Held_Federal_Debt_1790-2009.png/800px-Publicly_Held_Federal_Debt_1790-2009.png

But this is getting way off topic from the flu deaths.

[jmdrake]

who are those in charge?

The elected/appointed officials who get on the lobbyist revolving door gravy train and the people who pull their strings.

[jmdrake]

I am more interested in what he was pointing to, than what he says, a person can be mistaken or wrong about facts.

:rolleyes: Click here (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=1976+swine+flu+vaccine+deaths).

[donnay]

Anti- flu vaccine in that most people don't need it.


How can you be so sure?

[liberdom]

:rolleyes: Click here (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=1976+swine+flu+vaccine+deaths).

I had to know first it was in 1976, but thanks.

[Weston White]

so the fact it lasted about 100 years (more than my lifetime, or most of ours) tells me one thing : who cares about "real money"?

What are you even talking about? Inflation has remained exponential since 1913; $20 then is $464 today, as to the result upon your personal savings do you honestly find that acceptable?

[Zippyjuan]

Originally Posted by Zippyjuan

Anti- flu vaccine in that most people don't need it.

How can you be so sure?

Suggesting more people should be getting one? Interesting. I took you to be anti-vaccine. Maybe I was wrong.

[John F Kennedy III]

What are you even talking about? Inflation has remained exponential since 1913; $20 then is $464 today, as to the result upon your personal savings do you honestly find that acceptable?

I certainly don't. Then again I don't like theft.

[donnay]

Suggesting more people should be getting one? Interesting. I took you to be anti-vaccine. Maybe I was wrong.


No I am very anti-vaccine. I just wanted to know why you are so sure the flu vaccines, in your opinion people do not need. But a chicken pox vaccine they do.

[Roxi]

I wasn't saying there weren't that many deaths, I don't have a clue. Just saying that many people wouldn't be too noticeable considering how many people there are.

[Zippyjuan]

No I am very anti-vaccine. I just wanted to know why you are so sure the flu vaccines, in your opinion people do not need. But a chicken pox vaccine they do.

I have never said any vaccines should or should not be mandatory but I have certainly tried to stess that fear of them is overstated. In nearly every case, the risks associated with the vaccine are significantly lower than the risks of the disease.

[donnay]

I have never said any vaccines should or should not be mandatory but I have certainly tried to stess that fear of them is overstated. In nearly every case, the risks associated with the vaccine are significantly lower than the risks of the disease.

Well, I have been researching this for some 15 years and I can tell you vaccines are dangerous. Chicken pox haven't killed anyone and supposedly if you get the shot you won't get chicken pox? I have known a lot of people who had the shot, and did in fact, get chicken pox. When I was younger, mom's would have chicken pox parties just so the kids would get them and allow their immune system to build up an immunity.

Take a moment to listen to this interview:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGISh8j3Zww


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NHIDEqydS8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulmEGbwQsOU

http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/



Vaccine damage report database
http://www.vaccineinjury.info/vaccine-adverse-event-reports/2011-2.html

[Weston White]

Well, this sums it up very well I would say (step right up and take your chances mate, step right up):

Participants for childhood vaccinations, 1360:
http://www.vaccineinjury.info/results-vaccinated/results-illnesses.html

Participants for no childhood vaccinations, 11339:
http://www.vaccineinjury.info/vaccinations-in-general/health-unvaccinated-children/survey-results-illnesses.html

And notice which of the two choices are now most regretful.

[Zippyjuan]

Unfortunately those survey results are impossible to extrapolate to the general population since they appear to come from people visiting a site where they report problems with vaccines- so naturally they are going to say they had problems with vaccines. No big surprises on that. Folks without problems aren't going to even visit let alone participate in the survey. Kinda like going to this site and asking what they think about Ron Paul or libertarianism on one hand and the Federal Government or the Fed on the other.

[liberdom]

Unfortunately those survey results are impossible to extrapolate to the general population since they appear to come from people visiting a site where they report problems with vaccines- so naturally they are going to say they had problems with vaccines. No big surprises on that. Folks without problems aren't going to even visit let alone participate in the survey. Kinda like going to this site and asking what they think about Ron Paul or libertarianism on one hand and the Federal Government or the Fed on the other.

are you suggesting the website that lets vaccine victims voice their suppressed stories would lie or be inaccurate?

[liberdom]

Well, I have been researching this for some 15 years and I can tell you vaccines are dangerous.

Compared to the disease they are designed to prevent, which vaccines have ever caused more harm and risk?

[awake]

The people who ran the swine flu terror got their money and not one person lost their job for being completely wrong. Like an octopus that expels it's ink sac when sufficiently frightened, so does the gullible taxpayer part with his money in the face of the government's many conjured boogie men and its end of the world enactments.

[Zippyjuan]

are you suggesting the website that lets vaccine victims voice their suppressed stories would lie or be inaccurate?
Not saying they are inaccurate at all- just not representative of the general population. If 99% of the people on this site like Ron Paul and vote for him, does that mean that 99% of the general population will as well? No. If 99% of the people on that site had a bad experience with a vaccicne does that mean that 99% of the rest of the population did as well? No again.

[oyarde]

Had this conversation last night....

Father-in-law: You know they just found a mosquito with West Nile Virus in our county, so you shouldn't go outside with the girls unless you're wearing deet.
Me: Oh? So, what's the deal with West Nile Virus?
FIL: Well, it's a serious disease.
Me: Oh? How serious?
FIL: Well, you can die from it.
Me: You can die of pneumonia. But I know multiple people who have had it and yet walk the Earth....
FIL: ...............


Sometimes I love messing with chicken littles. Well I have never met your Father in Law or Chicken Little , but I was in a pneumonia ward once , and it started to get a bit thin around there by the time I felt well enough to stagger outside on the balcony and sneak a couple drags off of a smoke :)

[oyarde]

so the fact it lasted about 100 years (more than my lifetime, or most of ours) tells me one thing : who cares about "real money"? I do

[oyarde]

Ever since we went completely fiat. End the Fed. End the Fed is correct .

[Weston White]

Not saying they are inaccurate at all- just not representative of the general population. If 99% of the people on this site like Ron Paul and vote for him, does that mean that 99% of the general population will as well? No. If 99% of the people on that site had a bad experience with a vaccicne does that mean that 99% of the rest of the population did as well? No again.

But that is data based on patient presented aliments, it is not simply one's individual preference or opinion (e.g., what is the difference between saying that my child suffers autism, versus, I don't think having autism is really all that bad); or at least that is what it presents itself as. Though what is notable, I find, is that out of the over one-thousand that did vaccinate their children around 80-90% of those now regret having done so.

[Zippyjuan]

But that is data based on patient presented aliments, it is not simply one's individual preference or opinion (e.g., what is the difference between saying that my child suffers autism, versus, I don't think having autism is really all that bad); or at least that is what it presents itself as. Though what is notable, I find, is that out of the over one-thousand that did vaccinate their children around 80-90% of those now regret having done so.

Out of how many million vaccinations given each year? In kindergarten alone the US has about 4.1 million students in 2008 accourding to the US Census. Pick one vaccine- say tetnus and CDC says 95% are vaccinated so there you have 9.9 million kids. Times what- seven or eight different vaccines (not counting those requiring multiple shots) and we are up to 31 million vaccines administered. And this does not count kids who don't go to kindergaten or other vaccinations. Times 13 years of kids in schools- 400 million. Shoot- lets go simple. Sometimes I make things too hard. Figure 300,000,000 people in the country. If say even 80% is vaccinated, that is 240 million people. Times again eight vaccines minimum and we are up to nearly two billion vaccines have been administered. A thousand self reported cases of side effects is nothing at all significant.

Yes, you are right, the presented data in the poll cited is patient reported- not doctor reported and again, those visiting the site in the first place are doing so because of a negative vaccine experience. In fact, it is asking for visitors of the site to add their own numbers to the survey. And you must register at the site to participate in the survey.


The survey is an ongoing project, so if you have vaccinated children please go to the questionnaire for vaccinated children.

If you have unvaccinated children or are unvaccinated yourself, please fill in the questionnaire for unvaccinated children.

Thank you for your support!

Please spread the word!


As we only have 1360 participants so far the results of the survey are not yet representative. Objective is to reach as many participants as in our survey on the state of health of unvaccinated children/persons.

As long as this is the way they are collecting data, it will never be representative.

Can you find any polls of a random sample of people? Those would be more useful.

[tangent4ronpaul]

H1N1 Pandemic Mortality Estimate

INFLUENZA (49): H1N1 PANDEMIC MORTALITY ESTIMATE
************************************************
A ProMED-mail post

Date: Mon 25 Jun 2012
Source: Reuters [edited]
<http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL2E8HP39Y20120625>

Study indicates 2009 swine flu outbreak was 15 times deadlier
--------------------------------------------------------------
The swine flu pandemic of 2009 [A/H1N1 pdm09 virus infection] killed an estimated 284 500 people, some 15 times the number confirmed by laboratory tests at the time, according to a new study by an international group of scientists. The study, published on Tuesday [19 Jun 2012] in the London-based journal Lancet Infectious Diseases, said the toll might have been even higher -- as many as 579 000 people. The original count, compiled by the World Health Organisation (WHO), put the number at 18 500. Those were only the deaths confirmed by lab testing, which the WHO itself warned was a gross underestimate because the deaths of people without access to the health system go uncounted, and because the virus is not always detectable after a victim dies.

The new study also shows the pandemic's impact varied widely by region, with 51 percent of swine flu deaths occurring in Africa and southeast Asia, which account for only 38 percent of the world's population. "This pandemic really did take an enormous toll," said Dr. Fatimah Dawood of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
who led the study. "Our results also suggest how best to deploy resources. If a vaccine were to become available, we need to make sure it reached the areas where the death toll is likely to be highest."

Swine flu, caused by the H1N1 influenza virus, infected its 1st known victim in central Mexico in March 2009. By April it had reached California, infecting a 10-year-old, and then quickly spread around the world, triggering fears and even panic. The CDC warned Americans not to travel to Mexico if they could avoid it. Egypt ordered the slaughter of all the country's pigs in a misguided attempt to contain the virus, which was in fact spread from person to person. The fears reflected the unusual nature of the virus, which contained bits and pieces of bird, swine and human flu viruses, a combination never
before detected.

Scientists were unsure how transmissible or deadly this mongrel flu [virus] would be, but early signs were ominous: the World Health Organisation declared swine flu a pandemic in June 2009, when labs had identified cases in 74 countries. Such lab-based identification is the gold standard, but every expert acknowledges that it misses more cases than it catches. One reason is that "some people who contract flu do not have access to health care," said CDC's Dawood, so their illness and even death goes unnoticed by authorities. Another reason is that the virus is not always detectable by the time a victim dies.

To get around these obstacles, epidemiologists resort to statistical models. They typically take the number of deaths from pneumonia and complications of underlying cardiovascular disease -- both caused by influenza -- during non-flu periods, count the number during a pandemic, and attribute the excess to the flu. Unfortunately, "vital statistics data are non-existent or sparse in many lower-resource countries," said Dawood, making this approach infeasible. Dawood and her colleagues -- from Vietnam, Kenya, New Zealand, Denmark and 5 other countries -- tried a different method.

They started with hard data, such as numbers from health workers going door to door in rural villages and asking about flu-like symptoms and testing nasal and throat swab samples, to estimate the proportion of a country's population infected with 2009 H1N1. Such data were available from 13 countries -- wealthy, such as Denmark, and poor, like Viet Nam. Then the scientists estimated the fraction of patients who died in each country. They started with solid data on death rates from respiratory illnesses in 5 wealthy nations. Since someone with, say, pneumonia has a lower chance of dying if treated in a top hospital in Hong Kong than at a rural clinic in Viet Nam, the scientists applied a "multiplier" to the raw data from poor countries. That is, they assumed that more people with flu-caused pneumonia died in developing nations than developed ones.

Such estimates and assumptions can introduce errors, critics note. Newly released mortality data from Mexico, for instance, show that H1N1 killed even more people than the new study estimates, said Lone Simonsen of George Washington University School of Public Health, co-author of a commentary on the study. Estimates of deaths from Japan and Singapore, in contrast, may be too high. Overall, however, the under- and over-estimates probably even out, said Simonsen, making the global estimate -- of 15 times more deaths than those confirmed at the time -- about right.

The results paint a picture of a flu virus that did not treat all victims equally. It killed 2 to 3 times as many of its victims in Africa than elsewhere. Overall, the virus infected children most (4 percent to 33 percent), adults moderately (0 to 22 percent of those 18 to 64) and the elderly hardly at all (0 to 4 percent). Even though the elderly were more likely to die once infected, so few caught the virus that 80 percent of swine flu deaths were of people younger than 65. In contrast, the elderly account for roughly 80 percent to 90 percent of deaths from seasonal influenza outbreaks. They were probably spared the worst of 2009 H1N1 because the virus resembled one that had circulated before 1957, meaning people alive then had developed some antibodies to it. The relative youth of the victims meant that H1N1 stole more than 3 times as many years of life than typical seasonal flu: 9.7 million years of life lost compared to 2.8 million if it had targeted the elderly as seasonal flu does.

H1N1 had begun petering out by November 2009, and the WHO declared the epidemic at an end the following August [2010].

(Byline: Sharon Begley, reporter; editing by Michele Gershberg and Xavier Briand)

--
Communicated by:
ProMED-mail from HealthMap alerts


[The paper is available on line on 25 Jun 2012:
<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309912701214>.

Title: Estimated global mortality associated with the first 12 months
of 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 virus circulation: a modelling
study

Authors: Fatimah S Dawood, and 29 others
"Summary
-------
"Background: 18 500 laboratory-confirmed deaths caused by the 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 were reported worldwide for the period April 2009 to August 2010. This number is likely to be only a fraction of the true number of the deaths associated with 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1. We aimed to estimate the global number of deaths during the first 12 months of virus circulation in each country.

"Methods: We calculated crude respiratory mortality rates associated with the 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 strain by age (0-17 years, 18-64 years, and >64 years) using the cumulative (12 months) virus-associated symptomatic attack rates from 12 countries and symptomatic case fatality ratios (sCFR) from 5 high-income countries. To adjust crude mortality rates for differences between countries in risk of death from influenza, we developed a respiratory mortality multiplier equal to the ratio of the median lower respiratory tract infection mortality rate in each WHO region mortality stratum to the median in countries with very low mortality. We calculated cardiovascular disease mortality rates associated with 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 infection with the ratio of excess deaths from cardiovascular and respiratory diseases during the pandemic in 5 countries and multiplied these values by the crude respiratory disease mortality rate associated with the virus. Respiratory and cardiovascular mortality rates associated with 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 were multiplied by age to calculate the number of associated deaths.

"Findings: We estimate that globally there were 201 200 respiratory deaths (range 10 700 - 395 600) with an additional 83 300 cardiovascular deaths (46 000 - 179 900) associated with 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1. 80 percent of the respiratory and cardiovascular deaths were in people younger than 65 years and 59 percent occurred in southeast Asia and Africa.

"Interpretation: Our estimate of respiratory and cardiovascular mortality associated with the 2009 pandemic influenza A H1N1 was 15 times higher than reported laboratory-confirmed deaths. Although no estimates of sCFRs were available from Africa and southeast Asia, a disproportionate number of estimated pandemic deaths might have occurred in these regions. Therefore, efforts to prevent influenza need to effectively target these regions in future pandemics."

A podcast related to this publication is available at:
<http://download.thelancet.com/flatcontentassets/audio/laninf/2012/laninf_july.mp3>.
- Mod.CP]

-t

[donnay]

Compared to the disease they are designed to prevent, which vaccines have ever caused more harm and risk?

From my research the MMR vaccine.

[liberdom]

From my research the MMR vaccine.

Are you talking about autism? Or is there something else about MMR I should know about?

[KingNothing]

Are you talking about autism? Or is there something else about MMR I should know about?

My guess is that Donnay is using pseudo-logic, pseudo-science, and pseudo-statistics to trump up the autism canard.

[oyarde]

Out of how many million vaccinations given each year? In kindergarten alone the US has about 4.1 million students in 2008 accourding to the US Census. Pick one vaccine- say tetnus and CDC says 95% are vaccinated so there you have 9.9 million kids. Times what- seven or eight different vaccines (not counting those requiring multiple shots) and we are up to 31 million vaccines administered. And this does not count kids who don't go to kindergaten or other vaccinations. Times 13 years of kids in schools- 400 million. Shoot- lets go simple. Sometimes I make things too hard. Figure 300,000,000 people in the country. If say even 80% is vaccinated, that is 240 million people. Times again eight vaccines minimum and we are up to nearly two billion vaccines have been administered. A thousand self reported cases of side effects is nothing at all significant.

Yes, you are right, the presented data in the poll cited is patient reported- not doctor reported and again, those visiting the site in the first place are doing so because of a negative vaccine experience. In fact, it is asking for visitors of the site to add their own numbers to the survey. And you must register at the site to participate in the survey.




As long as this is the way they are collecting data, it will never be representative.

Can you find any polls of a random sample of people? Those would be more useful. I am probably due for my rabies and distemper ...

[liberdom]

My guess is that Donnay is using pseudo-logic, pseudo-science, and pseudo-statistics to trump up the autism canard.

Let's see what his research tells us.

[donnay]

Are you talking about autism? Or is there something else about MMR I should know about?

MMR, and in the Physician's Desk Reference (PDR) at the library.(8,9) The following afflictions affecting nearly every body system -- blood, lymphatic, digestive, cardiovascular, immune, nervous, respiratory, and sensory -- have been reported following receipt of the MMR shot: encephalitis, encephalopathy, neurological disorders, seizure disorders, convulsions, learning disabilities, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), demyelination of the nerve sheaths, Guillain-Barre' syndrome (paralysis), muscle incoordination, deafness, panniculitis, vasculitis, optic neuritis (including partial or total blindness), retinitis, otitis media, bronchial spasms, fever, headache, joint pain, arthritis (acute and chronic), transverse myelitis, thrombocytopenia (blood clotting disorders and spontaneous bleeding), anaphylaxis (severe allergic reactions), lymphadenopathy, leukocytosis, pneumonitis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, urticaria, pancreatitis, parotitis, inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, meningitis, diabetes, autism, immune system disorders, and death (Figure 49).(10,11)

_____________________

Dr. Wakefield theorized that if a child who is exposed to two or more wild viral infections around the same time is at increased risk for autism, then a child who is injected with three live viruses via the MMR vaccine is equally susceptible to the ailment, if not more so. Thus, Wakefield proposed separating the measles, mumps and rubella vaccines from the three-in-one MMR shot -- the way they were in the 1970s prior to being combined -- and administering them individually over the course of several weeks or months. His solution would satisfy immunization recommendations designed to protect against the three diseases while safeguarding against the risk of autism:

"If, following thorough independent scientific investigation, it emerges that autistic...disorders are causally related to a compound influence of the component viruses of MMR, whether these viruses have been encountered naturally or in the vaccine, then through judicious use of the vaccines, one may have a means for preventing the disease [autism]. Spacing the single vaccines, thereby dissociating the exposures that, together, may constitute the risk, provides a way of not only preventing the acute measles, mumps and rubella infections, but also, potentially, the risk of one of the most devastating diseases that it has been our misfortune to encounter."(26)

For families that elect to vaccinate their children, Wakefield's proposal to separate the shots seems like a prudent approach, especially since recipients of MMR are being injected with three different live viruses -- contained within a chemical mixture of three diverse and potent drugs -- all at once. Furthermore, the medical and scientific literature contains documentation linking the MMR vaccine to a multitude of serious adverse reactions. The MMR vaccine manufacturer, plus numerous unsolicited personal stories, confirm the tragic possibilities.(27) Thus, when Wakefield's research was first publicized, concerned parents quickly rejected the MMR vaccine and demanded instead the individual shots. Several doctors initially supported Wakefield's recommendation and complied with their clients' requests. However, the individual measles, mumps and rubella vaccines are capable of causing severe adverse reactions as well. These are also listed by the vaccine manufacturer and documented in numerous studies.(28)

MMR was initially administered as three separate shots, rarely at the same time. Thus, early reports of adverse consequences could be attributed to a particular vaccine. Later, when the three-in-one MMR vaccine replaced the individual vaccines it became much more difficult to link a bad reaction to either the measles, mumps, or rubella portions of the shot. Today, MMR is often given in combination with other vaccines as well, making it even more difficult to determine whether one vaccine in particular caused an adverse reaction, or if all of the vaccines given at once simply overwhelmed the recipient's immune system.

[liberdom]

_____________________

Dr. Wakefield theorized

Do you have something other than Wakefield?
Do you have something other than autism?

A simple no would be nice, but if you do, let me know.

[donnay]

Do you have something other than Wakefield?
Do you have something other than autism?

A simple no would be nice, but if you do, let me know.


Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccine as a Potential Cause of Encephalitis (Brain Inflammation) in Children

Harold E. Buttram, MD

Childhood autism is the result of encephalitis affecting primarily the limbic system of the brain, located below the cerebral cortex. A relatively few number of cases are due to genetic causes, but officially the great majority are of unknown causes.

Bernard Rimland, PhD, founding director of the Autism Research Institute, estimates that there are now a minimum of 250,000 autistic children in America, a 10 to 15-fold increase in the past 50 or so years. Dr. Rimland, internationally recognized as a leading expert in the field of autism, has publically stated that he believes current childhood vaccine programs are one of the major causes for the current epidemic of autism.1

The US Committee on Children, Youth, and Families has estimated there are now 7.5 million American children with developmental delay compared with 4.8 million in 1991. Of these, 30% are thought to be autistic or have autistic tendencies .2

It is true that statistics are subject to question, but the real scope of the problem can be gained by talking with veteran elementary school teachers, and I have talked with many of them. Without exception in my experience, they emphatically confirm that there has been a dramatic and widespread increase among school children in learning and behavioral disorders attention deficit and hyperactivity, and children requiring special education. These changes appear most notable since the 1970's.

Dawbarns Law Firm of England has published a paper in which they report on over 600 instances of side effects following the MMR and MR vaccines, which were introduced in England in 1988.3 These include 202 cases of autism, 97 of epilepsy, 40 with hearing and vision problems, and 41 with 100 behavioral and learning problems, the latter in older children. Although British health officials deny a relationship of these conditions with the vaccines, Dawbarns has accounts of over 200 parents who believe that their children were normal before they were vaccinated, and who can point to nothing (other than the vaccine) which could account for the deterioration in their children's conditions.

The Physician's Desk Reference, in its section on the MMR vaccine, states that complications from MMR, such as encephalitis and optic neuritis, occur "very rarely." This is the conventional view, sincerely held by a majority of doctors, but where does the truth lie? Could it be that adverse consequences to MMR vaccine are occurring on a larger scale than officially recognized?

Hypothetical model for MMR vaccine as a cause of encephalitis Nerve cells of the brain function by conducting nerve impulses, Much like electrical wiring, these cells require insulation to function normally. This insulation is provided by myelin sheaths, made up largely of fatty material. For the most part myelination of nerve cells of the brain does not commence until after birth. Most is laid down during the first 5 years of normal development.

It is now generally thought that the process of encephalitis, whether from wild viruses of live-virus vaccines, is associated with an interference with the myelination process brought about by the development of antibodies against myelin basic protein, a constituent of the myelin sheaths .4

In theory there are several mechanisms whereby the MMR vaccine could have increased potency to induce harmful autoantibodies (antibodies which attack the body's own tissues and organs, including the myelin sheathes), once injected into the human system.

First and perhaps foremost, MMR is incubated in chick embryo culture medium, which necessarily includes precursors of all the organ systems of the chick, including myelin basic protein. Merck Pharmaceuticals, which produces MMR vaccine, claims that all traces of the chick embryo are removed before the vaccine is released for use. This may be true, but it is probably irrelevant as it does not take into account the process of mobile genetic elements, more commonly referred to as "jumping genes." Viruses being made up entirely of genetic material, they are highly susceptible to this process. It has been shown that viruses are genetically changed by accepting genetic material from cell cultures.' The genetic imprint of the chick myelin basic protein, which is foreign to the human system because of its chick origin, may be programmed to induce antibodies against human myelin basic protein, once injected into the human system. This in turn, potentially resulting in encephalitis.

The second theoretical reason is that the MMR vaccine is injected by needle directly into the system. This differs, from the natural infections which are "cushioned" or buffered by the mucosal immune system (Secretary IgA) of the respiratory tract. By passing this mucosal immune system, the injection may carry greater potency for harmful autoantibody formation.

Third, measles virus carries protein similar to those found in myelin sheaths 6 so that antibodies induced by the measles vaccine may cross-react harmfully with myelin.

Carrying this line of thought further, in 1993 Vijendra Singh, PhD University of Illinois, published a study in which they found antibodies to myelin basic protein in 50 to 60% of autistic children tested.4 Recently at a public meeting Dr. Singh presented information on an unpublished, preliminary study of 27 autistic children in which he found nearly 50% correlation between MMR antibodies and antibodies to myelin basic protein in serum drawn from the children.7 Dr. Singh emphasized that this study was very preliminary and that no conclusions could be drawn from it. However, it does raise a higher index of suspicion that the MMR vaccine may result in encephalitis and its various complications on a fairly large scale. Once again, this leads us to question whether or not many vaccine reactions are passing unrecognized and therefore unreported by the US medical community.

Reasons for under-reporting of adverse vaccine reactions in the USA As reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1990, there is a general malaise among American physicians in reporting adverse drug (and vaccine) reactions;.8 ,9 Based on this report, the present voluntary reporting system appears to have resulted in very low levels of adverse reaction reports.

The original screening studies for measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine were limited to short periods of time such as 6 weeks observation for adverse affects. This limited time did not take into account the possibility of delayed reactions, which may outnumber those occurring within the 6 or so week period. In the case of cancer, we know there may be periods of years between the original body insult and onset of cancer. In the case of the vaccines, it is possible that slow and subclinical process of encephalitis may be initiated which may not manifest until much later an therefore remain unrecognized as having been caused by the MMR vaccine.

It is possible that MMR vaccine reactions are now occurring on a much larger scale than they did in the original screening studies, because many children today are second generation vaccinees; that is, they are born mothers previously vaccinated with MMR. The mothers having been vaccinated with genetically contaminated MMR, as previous described, the children may have heightened susceptibility to adverse reactions when rechallenged with the vaccine.10 Further confirmation of this concept is found in a recent report from Japan where it was demonstrated that live virus from measles vaccine do persist in mononuclear cells of the body in children with autoimmune hepatitis.16 Doctors, having been conditioned by the rarity of adverse reactions in the original screening studies, are generally inclined to dismiss these reactions as due to other causes.

The decline of childhood diseases before vaccination There is a generally held concept that mass vaccine programs were largely responsible for control of former epidemic diseases, but with the probable exception of the polio vaccine, in most instances this was not the case. From 1911 to 1935 the 4 leading causes of death among those aged 1 to 14 years, covered by Metropolitan Life Insurance policies, were diphtheria, measles, scarlet fever and whooping cough.11

However, by 1945 the combined rates from these 4 diseases had declined by 95%, before mass vaccine program began in the United States .12 By far the greatest factors in the decline were better housing with less crowded conditions, better nutrition, and other public health, hygienic, and medical measures.

Discussion The conventional view is that adverse vaccine reactions are relatively uncommon. At variance with this are internationally recognized authorities such as Dr. Bernard Rimland. Also at variance are many parents whose children have developed medical complications following vaccines where no other cause was evident.

Time may prove that one of the basic flaws in American childhood vaccine programs is that it is increasingly compulsory and mandatory. Once considered the fountainhead of freedom, in the enforcement of vaccine programs, America has become one of the most stringent and arbitrary of all nations. Parents refusing to have their children vaccinated, often for religious reasons, are subject to charges of child abuse.

Public health officials contend that such compulsory measures are necessary for control of infectious diseases which, they maintain, would increase along with childhood death rates if the vaccine mandates were lifted. In my opinion, this argument does not bear up to scrutiny for the following reasons:

In 1979 Sweden banned the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine, considering it both ineffective and dangerous. In spite of the banning, or perhaps because of it, Sweden maintains one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. In 1975 Japan raised the age of pertussis vaccine to 2 years of age, considering it dangerous in infancy. Since that time, sudden infant death syndrome (cot deaths) have largely disappeared in Japan.13

Other nations with either voluntary vaccine programs, such as England, or less stringently enforced programs have lower infant mortality rates than the US. With few exceptions, they have not had a return of deadly epidemics (with high mortality).

One researcher has estimated that, in the case of autism, it may take 15 years to reach the standards of scientific proof that MMR vaccine is causing autism in a large portion of children with the condition. Can we afford to wait 15 years? For sake of argument, let us assume that scientific proof is eventually gained that MMR is causatively related to a significant portion of children with autism and developmental delay. If we continue to enforce vaccine programs as at present, one shudders to think what the future generations will think and write about us. Mistakes might be forgiven, but not the enforcement of these mistakes. If such does prove to be the case, we can rest assured that they will be neither kind nor charitable in their judgments of us.

Conclusion As previously mentioned, time may prove that vaccine programs went awry when they deviated from the most basic of traditional medical ethics: the right of a patient to choose or reject medical therapy, or the right of parents to accept or reject medical procedures such as vaccines for their children. The right of free choice provides a system for checks and balances now lacking. As a result, present vaccine programs are going to extremes and are possibly causing more disease than they are preventing. The remedy? Parents should be allowed the right of free choice to accept or reject vaccines for their children.

Addendum Of related interest to the subject of MMR vaccine as a potential cause of encephalitis is the report of Dr. Sudhir Gupta and coworkers in which they found marked abnormalities of the immune systems of autistic children.10 Could the MMR vaccine have been a contributing factor for these abnormalities? In 1991 there was a report of significantly higher child mortality following high-tittered measles vaccines compared with standard measles vaccines among children in Senegal.14 Subsequently a study was undertaken to assess immune responses to the high tittered vaccines.15 The results showed suppression in lymphoproliferation; that is, suppression in lymphocyte production (lymphocytes are a class of white blood cells which play a major role in governing the immune system). In the above study report it was stated, "the effect of measles immunization on immune responses in infants has not been systematically studied." The study was valuable but it tested only two strains of high red measles vaccines, not the standard vaccine. As a result we do know that the high-tittered vaccine does cause immune disturbances, but we do not know the effects of the standard measles vaccine, studies not having been done. If such studies are not already in progress, let us hope that they soon will be.

Correspondence: Harold E. Buttram, MD 5724 Clymer Road Quakertown, Pennsylvania 18951 USA 215-536-1890

References

1. Statements by Bernard Rimland, PhD, were given at a conference on autism, sponsored by the Autism Research Institute in Chicago, June, 1996.

2. Information from the Developmental Delay Registry, 6701 Fairfax Road, Chevy Chase, Maryland 20815, Tel. 301652-2263.

3. From a paper distributed by Dawbarns Law Firm, Bank House, Kingrs Staithe Square, Lingrs Lynn, Norfolk PE30 IRD, Great Britain, Tel. 01553. 764373, Fax 01553-765226.

4. Singh VJ et al., Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior, Brain, Behavior, and Immunity, Vol. 7, 97-1203, 1993.

5. Kumar S & Miller LK, Effects of serial passage of Autographs Californica nuclear polyhidrosis virus in cell culture. Virus Research, Vol. 7, 335-349, 1987.

6. Jahnke U et al., Sequence homology between certain viral proteins and proteins related to encephalomyelitis and neuritis, Science, Vol. 29, 282-284, July 19, 1985,

7. Presentation by Dr. Vijendra Singh, August 16, 1997, Allegro School, Cedar Knolls, New Jersey.

8. Scott HD et al., Physician reporting of adverse reactions: results of the Rhode Island adverse drug reaction reporting project, JAMA, Vol. 263, No. 13, 1785-1788, April 4, 1990.

9. Reporting side effects: signals or noise? (Editorial), ibid, page 1823.

10. Gupta S et al., Dysregulated immune system in children with autism; beneficial effects of intravenous globulin on autistic characteristics, J ofAutism and Develop Disorders, Vol. 26, No. 4, 439-452, 1996. (In this article on page 450, it is stated, "We theorized that the high titers of rubella antibody ... present in mothers of children with autism would be transplacentally transferred and may persist for a prolonged period in the child. When such a child gets MMR immunization, rubella antigen may complex with preexisting antibodies and such complexes might play a role in pathogenesis of autistic features.")

11. Dublin L & Lotka A, Twenty-five Years ofHealth Progress, New York: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, 1937, page 48.

12. Dublin L, Health Progress 1936-1945, New York: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, 1948, page 12.

13. Vaccination. 100 Years of Orthodox Research Shows that Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System, Viera Scheiliner, PhD., 1993 (from pages 33 to 49 the author extensively reviews the Swedish and Japanese experiences with the pertussis vaccine, book available from New Atlantean Press, P.O. Box 9638-925, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504).

14. Garenne M et al., Child mortality after high-titre measles vaccines; a prospective study in Senegal, Lancet, Vol. 338, 903-907, October 12, 1991.

15. Hussey GD et al., The effect of Edmonston-Zagreb and Schwarz measles vaccines on immune responses in infants, J of Infect Diseases, Vol. 173, 1320-1326, 1996.

[John F Kennedy III]

Do you have something other than Wakefield?
Do you have something other than autism?

A simple no would be nice, but if you do, let me know.

Lol dude you're terrible at this trolling thing.

[liberdom]

Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccine as a Potential Cause of Encephalitis (Brain Inflammation) in Children

Harold E. Buttram, MD

Dawbarns Law Firm of England has published a paper in which they report on over 600 instances of side effects following the MMR and MR vaccines, which were introduced in England in 1988.3 These include 202 cases of autism, 97 of epilepsy, 40 with hearing and vision problems, and 41 with 100 behavioral and learning problems, the latter in older children. Although British health officials deny a relationship of these conditions with the vaccines, Dawbarns has accounts of over 200 parents who believe that their children were normal before they were vaccinated, and who can point to nothing (other than the vaccine) which could account for the deterioration in their children's conditions.
..........
It is now generally thought that the process of encephalitis, whether from wild viruses of live-virus vaccines, is associated with an interference with the myelination process brought about by the development of antibodies against myelin basic protein, a constituent of the myelin sheaths .4

In theory there are several mechanisms whereby the MMR vaccine could have increased potency to induce harmful autoantibodies (antibodies which attack the body's own tissues and organs, including the myelin sheathes), once injected into the human system.

First and perhaps foremost, MMR is incubated in chick embryo culture medium, which necessarily includes precursors of all the organ systems of the chick, including myelin basic protein. Merck Pharmaceuticals, which produces MMR vaccine, claims that all traces of the chick embryo are removed before the vaccine is released for use. This may be true, but it is probably irrelevant as it does not take into account the process of mobile genetic elements, more commonly referred to as "jumping genes." Viruses being made up entirely of genetic material, they are highly susceptible to this process. It has been shown that viruses are genetically changed by accepting genetic material from cell cultures.' The genetic imprint of the chick myelin basic protein, which is foreign to the human system because of its chick origin, may be programmed to induce antibodies against human myelin basic protein, once injected into the human system. This in turn, potentially resulting in encephalitis.

The second theoretical reason is that the MMR vaccine is injected by needle directly into the system. This differs, from the natural infections which are "cushioned" or buffered by the mucosal immune system (Secretary IgA) of the respiratory tract. By passing this mucosal immune system, the injection may carry greater potency for harmful autoantibody formation.

Third, measles virus carries protein similar to those found in myelin sheaths 6 so that antibodies induced by the measles vaccine may cross-react harmfully with myelin.

Carrying this line of thought further, in 1993 Vijendra Singh, PhD University of Illinois, published a study in which they found antibodies to myelin basic protein in 50 to 60% of autistic children tested.4 Recently at a public meeting Dr. Singh presented information on an unpublished, preliminary study of 27 autistic children in which he found nearly 50% correlation between MMR antibodies and antibodies to myelin basic protein in serum drawn from the children.7 Dr. Singh emphasized that this study was very preliminary and that no conclusions could be drawn from it. However, it does raise a higher index of suspicion that the MMR vaccine may result in encephalitis and its various complications on a fairly large scale. Once again, this leads us to question whether or not many vaccine reactions are passing unrecognized and therefore unreported by the US medical community.

Reasons for under-reporting of adverse vaccine reactions in the USA As reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1990, there is a general malaise among American physicians in reporting adverse drug (and vaccine) reactions;.8 ,9 Based on this report, the present voluntary reporting system appears to have resulted in very low levels of adverse reaction reports.
Correspondence: Harold E. Buttram, MD 5724 Clymer Road Quakertown, Pennsylvania 18951 USA 215-536-1890

References

1. Statements by Bernard Rimland, PhD, were given at a conference on autism, sponsored by the Autism Research Institute in Chicago, June, 1996.

2. Information from the Developmental Delay Registry, 6701 Fairfax Road, Chevy Chase, Maryland 20815, Tel. 301652-2263.

3. From a paper distributed by Dawbarns Law Firm, Bank House, Kingrs Staithe Square, Lingrs Lynn, Norfolk PE30 IRD, Great Britain, Tel. 01553. 764373, Fax 01553-765226.

4. Singh VJ et al., Antibodies to myelin basic protein in children with autistic behavior, Brain, Behavior, and Immunity, Vol. 7, 97-1203, 1993.

5. Kumar S & Miller LK, Effects of serial passage of Autographs Californica nuclear polyhidrosis virus in cell culture. Virus Research, Vol. 7, 335-349, 1987.

6. Jahnke U et al., Sequence homology between certain viral proteins and proteins related to encephalomyelitis and neuritis, Science, Vol. 29, 282-284, July 19, 1985,

7. Presentation by Dr. Vijendra Singh, August 16, 1997, Allegro School, Cedar Knolls, New Jersey.

8. Scott HD et al., Physician reporting of adverse reactions: results of the Rhode Island adverse drug reaction reporting project, JAMA, Vol. 263, No. 13, 1785-1788, April 4, 1990.

9. Reporting side effects: signals or noise? (Editorial), ibid, page 1823.

10. Gupta S et al., Dysregulated immune system in children with autism; beneficial effects of intravenous globulin on autistic characteristics, J ofAutism and Develop Disorders, Vol. 26, No. 4, 439-452, 1996. (In this article on page 450, it is stated, "We theorized that the high titers of rubella antibody ... present in mothers of children with autism would be transplacentally transferred and may persist for a prolonged period in the child. When such a child gets MMR immunization, rubella antigen may complex with preexisting antibodies and such complexes might play a role in pathogenesis of autistic features.")

11. Dublin L & Lotka A, Twenty-five Years ofHealth Progress, New York: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, 1937, page 48.

12. Dublin L, Health Progress 1936-1945, New York: Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, 1948, page 12.

13. Vaccination. 100 Years of Orthodox Research Shows that Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System, Viera Scheiliner, PhD., 1993 (from pages 33 to 49 the author extensively reviews the Swedish and Japanese experiences with the pertussis vaccine, book available from New Atlantean Press, P.O. Box 9638-925, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504).

14. Garenne M et al., Child mortality after high-titre measles vaccines; a prospective study in Senegal, Lancet, Vol. 338, 903-907, October 12, 1991.

15. Hussey GD et al., The effect of Edmonston-Zagreb and Schwarz measles vaccines on immune responses in infants, J of Infect Diseases, Vol. 173, 1320-1326, 1996.

Like I thought, no actual studies with actual statistics. Asking questions is nice, but it's not "research".

It's amazing how much you are willing to believe with LACK of evidence, and yet you question automatically whatever comes from the other side.

[donnay]

Like I thought, no actual studies with actual statistics. Asking questions is nice, but it's not "research".

It's amazing how much you are willing to believe with LACK of evidence, and yet you question automatically whatever comes from the other side.

It's amazing how much you believe the AMA, AAP, FDA and Big pHARMa. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!!!!

MMR Vaccine Autism Safety Study Flawed

In the UK there has been much controversy over the findings of Dr Andrew Wakefield linking the use of MMR vaccine with regressive autism, a potentially severe and debilitating, behavioural and emotional condition. Consequently confidence in the vaccine has diminished considerably among the general public and the government health authorities have been at pains to try and restore faith in the vaccine. In 2001 the UK health authority publicised a report of a study conducted in Finland, citing this as proof that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism. However, closer examination of this study only serves to illustrate the problems associated with the governments prejudice and tunnel vision when assessing adverse effects of vaccines. The report appeared convincing, involving 1.8 million children over a 14-year period finding no link between MMR vaccine and autism.

There were however major limitations to the study:

The study relied on voluntary notifications of adverse effects, in which experts agree, at best; pick up 10% of incidents.
Secondly the reactions that were being looked for; fits, allergies, neurological disorders, rheumatoid arthritis and diabetes – did not include autism or any symptoms associated with it.
Thirdly the reported adverse reactions concentrated on a three-week period after vaccination and would therefore miss the slow appearance of symptoms associated with regressive autism.

The study was therefore completely inadequate in its ability to assess the incidence of regressive autism.

This Finnish report was not based on a study of the effects of MMR, it was not an independent research project on the effects of MMR on the human physiology, but a look at the reports sent in to the local health authorities. Reports that were not looking for autism or any symptoms associated with autism, in a time-frame outside of the normal appearance of symptoms, therefore highly unlikely to find any symptoms of autism associated with the use of MMR vaccine.

Yet the government cited this as scientific evidence that MMR does not cause autism. If we then take into account the fact that he report was supported by a grant from Merck & Co, USA, a producer of MMR vaccine we see that there have been inherent conflict of interest issues and that this was not an independent study. Furthermore the subsequent documents, aimed at restoring public confidence in MMR, distributed to GPs in the UK was authored by Mike Watson medical director of Aventis Pasteur also a manufacturer of MMR vaccine. This is of course worse than inadequate and appears to indicate a level of intentional neglect amounting to deceit.

http://www.vaccine-side-effects.com/content/vaccines-mmr-vaccine-autism-safety-study-flawed/

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” ~Joseph Goebbels

[liberdom]

DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!!!!

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” ~Joseph Goebbels

This quote is made up, some research you got there!
http://www.ihr.org/other/weber2011fakequotations.html

[donnay]

This quote is made up, some research you got there!
http://www.ihr.org/other/weber2011fakequotations.html


Take it up with them: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbelslie.html

[liberdom]

It's amazing how much you believe the AMA, AAP, FDA and Big pHARMa. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!!!!!!


No, it's no amazing, because I rely on actual scientific evidence, and study, even if I am willing to believe they are wrong.

But Wakefield's study has long been debunked and you continue to cling on to it, something you will not see me doing.

This is the deal I make for anybody who wants to allege MMR-autism connection : (no takers up to date, they always move the goalpost or change the subject).

Find me ONE, JUST ONE (other than Wakefield), blind and published study that can even show CORRELATION between autism increase and MMR vaccine.
JUST CORRELATION, even better if you can show 2 independent studies.
I am willing to hand you causation without question if you can show me EVEN ONE CORRELATION STUDY. (remember, blind, published, and other than Wakefield).

If you are willing to admit you don't have it, fine. But don't yell "do your research" or complain I don't believe you. I never said you can't believe things without good evidence, but I am tired of people who can't even admit that.

[liberdom]

Take it up with them: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbelslie.html

No need to, you could've just read what the page said, their source is this, which provides no source.
http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/-if_you_tell_a_lie_big_enough_and_keep_repeating/345877.html

The fact somebody does poor research is no excuse for your own. Especially something THIS obvious. I can tell now what kinds of things you do or don't question.

[donnay]

No, it's no amazing, because I rely on actual scientific evidence, and study, even if I am willing to believe they are wrong.

But Wakefield's study has long been debunked and you continue to cling on to it, something you will not see me doing.

This is the deal I make for anybody who wants to allege MMR-autism connection : (no takers up to date, they always move the goalpost or change the subject).

Find me ONE, JUST ONE (other than Wakefield), blind and published study that can even show CORRELATION between autism increase and MMR vaccine.
JUST CORRELATION, even better if you can show 2 independent studies.
I am willing to hand you causation without question if you can show me EVEN ONE CORRELATION STUDY. (remember, blind, published, and other than Wakefield).

If you are willing to admit you don't have it, fine. But don't yell "do your research" or complain I don't believe you. I never said you can't believe things without good evidence, but I am tired of people who can't even admit that.


That is how much you know. The Lancet in 2010 retracted their remarks about Wakefield. Now Wakefield is suing them. So get a clue, m'kay?

http://www.hcplive.com/articles/Wakefield-Sues-over-Autism-Vaccine-Fraud-Accusations
http://junksciencecom.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/wakefield-lawsuit.pdf

The full Brian Deer vs. Wakefield 12 parents documentary "Selective Hearing" http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=21C9E60E7A00D3D8B3DF37796B661886

Recent Daily Mail report on findings similar to Wakefield's http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-li...

Merck hit list memo http://www.news.com.au/story-0-1225699594111#ixzz1WpVwgg3a

[liberdom]

That is how much you know. The Lancet in 2010 retracted their remarks about Wakefield. Now Wakefield is suing them.


Changes no facts. You have no other published study. And yes, I knew all this. So just admit YOU CANNOT SHOW EVEN ONE ASIDE FROM WAKEFIELD.

News articles are not published studies. Let me know when you have something. Again, you rely on Wakefield and ignore all other evidence against him, THAT is why I am willing to trust big pHARMa. Quite a double standard you continue to evade and can't admit.

[Weston White]

Do you have something other than Wakefield?
Do you have something other than autism?

A simple no would be nice, but if you do, let me know.

Then, how about the aspect of seizures, Hodgkin’s, etc., etc., etc?

100 vaccination studies: http://www.activistpost.com/2011/09/100-compiled-studies-on-vaccine-dangers.html

Also see: http://www.naturalnews.com/035871_vaccination_immunization_myths.html

[liberdom]

Then, how about the aspect of seizures, Hodgkin’s, etc., etc., etc?

100 vaccination studies: http://www.activistpost.com/2011/09/100-compiled-studies-on-vaccine-dangers.html


Not my question.

Do you admit autism-MMR connection is debunked and discredited? If not, let's solve it first.

Donnay is trying very hard to avoid admitting he can't find EVEN ONE BLIND PUBLISHED STUDY OTHER THAN WAKEFIELD WHICH COMES CLOSE TO EVEN SHOWING CORRELATION BETWEEN AUTISM AND MMR. I was willing to say "correlation absolutely means causation" if he could show me just that.

[donnay]

Monkeys Get Autism-like Reactions to MMR & Other Vaccines In University of Pittsburgh Vaccine Study

By Catherine J. Frompovich (http://vactruth.com/2012/04/29/monkeys-get-autism/) | April 29th, 2012

Someone did perform safety studies the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) should have mandated be performed and vetted BEFORE numerous vaccines were released into the public sector for mass vaccinations.

Lead investigator Laura Hewitson, PhD, probably dropped a bombshell when she and her colleagues completed a macaque monkey (primates) study of the very same vaccines given to children during 1994-1999, i.e., the Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine and several Thimerosal mercury-containing vaccines injected into children during that time frame when the autism spectrum disorder skyrocketed.

The results of that pilot study were published as a Research Paper in Acta Neurobiological Experimentals in 2010 and titled “Influence of pediatric vaccines on amydgala growth and opioid ligand binding in rhesus macaque infants: A pilot study.” [1] Even though there was alleged controversy revolving around Hewitson’s monkey studies, e.g., charges of conflicts of interest since she filed a claim with the vaccine court on behalf of her child, [2] the information generated needs to be revisited and duplicate studies need to be undertaken. Why haven’t they? Is there too much influence from vaccine makers not to do them? Parents need to make demands on the U.S. Congress to require such safety studies on monkeys be duplicated immediately, plus suspend all mandates on vaccinations until the study results are in. Did Dr Hewitson become another professional persona non-grata because she may have been on the right track?

Congress needs to consider seriously the Hewitson, et al. report that stated:

“Vaccine-exposed and saline-injected control infants [monkeys] underwent MRI and PET imaging at approximately 4 and 6 months of age, representing two specific timeframes within the vaccination schedule. …

“These results suggest that maturational changes in amygdala volume and the binding capacity of [11C]DPN in the amygdala was significantly altered in infant macaques receiving the vaccine schedule.” [1]

That alone should be the explicit reason for duplicating the monkey study with independent non-pharmaceutical industry conflict of interest scientists.

In this author’s opinion, no one has bigger conflicts of interest in study outcomes than the pharmaceutical makers who routinely perform them. Those are the very studies that should be subject to the same criticism as Dr Hewitson’s. Why aren’t they? Good question?

For those keeping track data, ASD went from 1 in 5,000 in the 1990s to the recently acknowledged [March 2012] figures of 1 in 88 along with 1 in 6 children in the USA having developmental disabilities. These stats were generated for data in the years 2006 to 2008. [3] There’s a 4 to 6 year lag time. Could ASD be 1 in 50 by now at the rate it is escalating?, especially since there’s a heavier push on mandates for vaccinations.

According to the Hewitson, et al. research study, biological changes and altered behaviors did occur in vaccinated monkeys, which resembled and were similar to those observed in ASD diagnosed children. However, there were no such symptoms showing or present in unvaccinated monkeys. Don’t you just gotta love those little monkeys! Guess what else the ASD monkeys came up with, and Dr Wakefield is gonna like this one: Gastrointestinal problems manifested in vaccinated macaques such as “many significant differences in the GI tissue gene expression profiles between vaccinated and unvaccinated animals.” [3] It’s been a deeply debated topic within medicine that vaccinated children who contract ASD also have GI tract issues. Personally, I gotta wonder how the British Medical Journal is going to deal with encrusted dried egg on its face when duplicate studies confirm the Hewitson monkey results. Perhaps the infamous BMJ retraction of the Wakefield article and Doctor’s professional evisceration, commonly referred to as the “Wakefield Syndrome,” euphemistically speaking is medicine protecting its vested interests.

Those little monkeys, however, came up with some other significant information that led former National Institutes of Health director Dr Bernadine Healy to voice some bon mots like:

“I think public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as ‘irrational,’ without sufficient studies of causation…without studying the population that got sick.”

“I have not seen major studies that focus on 300 kids who got autistic symptoms within a period of a few weeks of the vaccines.” [4]

Perhaps the most on-point quote regarding the monkey study came from Scott Bono, the National Autism Association chairman, i.e., something those who are accused of being against vaccinations have been questioning and demanding:

“To date, the CDC has conducted no safety testing on the possible harmful effects of simultaneously administering multiple vaccines to infants, and has steadfastly refused to state a preference for mercury-free vaccines to be given to children and pregnant women. It’s time for HHS and Congress to step in and take vaccine safety away from the CDC.” [4]

This author’s retort to Mr. Bono’s remark is that vaccine safety should be taken away from the Food and Drug Administration too! I’d like to remind readers that Congress is more at fault than anyone in this vaccine debacle. Congress has oversight and it has dropped the ball big time, probably due to all the lobbyists from Big Pharma who prowl the halls of Congress with deep pockets and nice expensive luncheon dates.

One of the issues I feel Congress has been remiss about is that it has not demanded safety studies and interaction of multiple vaccines studies BEFORE being placed into the marketplace. According to common and accepted knowledge, no such safety research or studies have been done on the current childhood vaccination regimen, except until the Hewitson ‘monkey business’ that was funded by independent, private money, for which everyone, I think, should be eternally grateful. However, the study had to be shot down since it was not favorable to vaccine makers. Why isn’t someone else duplicating the monkey studies? Are they afraid of becoming another victim of science? Why, when isn’t that what medical science should be all about: investigating problems and theories, publishing results, and interacting with other sciences, NOT excommunication as if they were breaking some religious dogma. Or, do they, in some vested interests minds?
Current Vaccine Safety Activism in Congress

Now here is something every VacTruth reader should consider seriously: Supporting Congressman Dan Burton’s (R-5-IN) request to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa to hold hearings on the Vaccination Injury Compensation Program. Back on January 12, 2011, this writer filed a Whistleblower’s Complaint on Vaccines with Chairman Issa and has yet to receive an acknowledgement of that filing.

Isn’t about time to revisit, update, and do more extensive research into the Autism Spectrum Disorder pandemic that is spreading globally?

April 24, 2012 Congressman Burton posted a letter to The Hill’s Congress Blog titled, “It is time to re-engage on the autism epidemic.” He also wants to pass legislation to force the President to address the ASD epidemic and its impact on Americans. Burton is committed to helping millions of children, adults, and families afflicted with ASD. We need to support Congressman Burton ASAP and here’s how:

Contact the Canary Party to support their Facebook pages to hold Congressional hearings and a White House Conference on Autism. Contact News@CanaryParty.org.
Contact Congressman Darrell Issa at the Oversight and Government Reform Committee at 2157 Rayburn House Office Bldg., Washington, DC 20515 or preferably telephone your request for Autism Investigation Hearings to 202-225-5074.

For those who want to know about this information, the National Autism Association (www.nationalautism.org) will be holding a rally for toxin-free immunizations in Washington, DC on June 4, 2012, titled “Green Our Vaccines,” which this author thinks is an oxymoron. How can you green vaccines when every ingredient is toxic? Just check out the CDC’s PinkBook Vaccine Excipient & Media Summary at http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf.

Before I leave this article, I would like VacTruth readers to know that my colleague who also writes for VacTruth, Laraine C Abbey, RN (retired) and I co-edited a 150 page monograph in January 2011 titled Vaccines & Vaccinations: The Need for Congressional Investigation, which you can read in full on VacTruth at http://vactruth.com/vaccines-vaccinations-the-need-for-congressional-investigation/.

Apparently others have read it and agree.

Congressman Burton, Nurse Abbey and I congratulate you on taking the stand you have, and we offer you our resources in obtaining a Congressional investigation.

President Obama, Nurse Abbey and I respectfully request a White House conference on Autism, and we offer you our resources to effectuate a non-biased conference.

VacTruth readers, I charge you with spreading this information and article as far and wide as you possibly can so that we can get an investigation that ought to be open, not biased, and the scientific facts—nothing but the facts, like those the monkeys finally had to prove. It was not monkey business; it’s the real deal.





References:

[1] http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7020.pdf

[2] http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/07/laura-hewitson-has-left-the-university-of-pittsburgh/

[3] http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

[4] http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Infant-Vaccines-Produce-Autism-Symptoms-In-Primates

[liberdom]

That alone should be the explicit reason for duplicating the monkey study with independent non-pharmaceutical industry conflict of interest scientists.


Agreed. Which Wakefield is clearly not.

I appreciate this post, this is much closer to what I am looking for. Thanks! (this is to tell people I don't ignore responses when my question is answered, or when somebody actually knows what I am asking for)

[donnay]

Agreed. Which Wakefield is clearly not.

I appreciate this post, this is much closer to what I am looking for. Thanks! (this is to tell people I don't ignore responses when my question is answered, or when somebody actually knows what I am asking for)

I think you are wrong about Wakefield. He will be vindicated, you wait and see.

[liberdom]

I think you are wrong about Wakefield. He will be vindicated, you wait and see.

But big pharma and government will never be. Talk about faith. But yes, I am waiting and seeing.

[Weston White]

Not my question.

Do you admit autism-MMR connection is debunked and discredited? If not, let's solve it first.

Donnay is trying very hard to avoid admitting he can't find EVEN ONE BLIND PUBLISHED STUDY OTHER THAN WAKEFIELD WHICH COMES CLOSE TO EVEN SHOWING CORRELATION BETWEEN AUTISM AND MMR. I was willing to say "correlation absolutely means causation" if he could show me just that.

These are just a small sampling of the citations referenced within that article:

Kiln MR, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 May 2;351(9112):1358.

Koga, et al, “Bilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Case”, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5.

Selway, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998. Medical practitioners need to give more than reassurance.” BMJ 1998 Jun 13;316(7147):1824.

Nicoll A, Elliman D, Ross E, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998,” MJ 1998 Mar 7;316(7133):715-716.

Lindley K J, Milla PJ, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.”Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907-908.

Bedford H, et al, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907.

Vijendra K. Singh, Sheren X. Lin, and Victor C. Yang, “Serological Association of Measles Virus and Human Herpesvirus-6 with Brain Autoantibodies in Autism,” Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, Oct 1998, Vol. 89, No. 1, p 105-108. ["None of the autistic children in the study had measles in the past, but all had the MMR" stated David Whalgren. Vaccines and Demyelination Citations:

…
In 1988, Dietrich used MRI to show that developmentally delayed children had alterations in their myelin. Coulter described that central nervous system damage can be exhibited as abnormal behavior of the child. In 1935, Thomas Rivers, experimental allergic encephalitis (EAE) can be the result of a viral or bacterial infection of the nervous system. "The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of record that it was known that vaccination produced encephalitis since 1926." The authors stated, "In regions in which there is no organized vaccination of the population, general paralysis is rare. ... It is impossible to deny a connection between vaccinations and the encephalitis (brain damage) which follows it." Vaccines have been linked to seizures, convulsions and epilepsy. Vaccinations and Seizures:

Hirtz DG, Nelson KB, Ellenberg J H, "Seizures following childhood immunizations", Pediatr 1983 Jan; 102(1):14-18.
…

[liberdom]

These are just a small sampling of the citations referenced within that article:

Kiln MR, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 May 2;351(9112):1358.

Nicoll A, Elliman D, Ross E, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998,” MJ 1998 Mar 7;316(7133):715-716.

Lindley K J, Milla PJ, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.”Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907-908.

Bedford H, et al, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907.


Selway, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998. Medical practitioners need to give more than reassurance.” BMJ 1998 Jun 13;316(7147):1824.
Koga, et al, “Bilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Case”, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5.


these are all letters to the editor, as far as I can tell.





Vijendra K. Singh, Sheren X. Lin, and Victor C. Yang, “Serological Association of Measles Virus and Human Herpesvirus-6 with Brain Autoantibodies in Autism,” Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, Oct 1998, Vol. 89, No. 1, p 105-108. ["None of the autistic children in the study had measles in the past, but all had the MMR" stated David Whalgren. Vaccines and Demyelination Citations:

…
In 1988, Dietrich used MRI to show that developmentally delayed children had alterations in their myelin. Coulter described that central nervous system damage can be exhibited as abnormal behavior of the child. In 1935, Thomas Rivers, experimental allergic encephalitis (EAE) can be the result of a viral or bacterial infection of the nervous system. "The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of record that it was known that vaccination produced encephalitis since 1926." The authors stated, "In regions in which there is no organized vaccination of the population, general paralysis is rare. ... It is impossible to deny a connection between vaccinations and the encephalitis (brain damage) which follows it." Vaccines have been linked to seizures, convulsions and epilepsy. Vaccinations and Seizures:

Hirtz DG, Nelson KB, Ellenberg J H, "Seizures following childhood immunizations", Pediatr 1983 Jan; 102(1):14-18.
…

not what i asked for.

[Weston White]

these are all letters to the editor, as far as I can tell.

Those are "100 Compiled Studies on Vaccine Dangers"


not what i asked for.

Specifically, I do not know what you asked for, but those studies directly pertain to every aspect of vaccinations being discussed herein.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

The cdc proves itself time & time again to be inept at its job, or deliberately misinforms to spread an agenda (I like the latter more). You can see this with fluoride. All of a sudden, the fluoride cities nationwide have been getting was too much, so they lowered the recommended dosage. But, I thought it was completely safe?

[liberdom]

Those are "100 Compiled Studies on Vaccine Dangers"

Specifically, I do not know what you asked for, but those studies directly pertain to every aspect of vaccinations being discussed herein.

Did you just copy it from infowars.com or something?

I actually looked for those articles on pubmed, do you know how to do that? If you did, you'd actually know what the articles say. They are not studies on either autism or MMR, they are commentary, the few that I looked are criticizing Wakefield.

If you didn't know what I was looking for, you can ask. I'll tell you again what I am looking for
1. A blind and published study (if you don't know what that means, its no wonder you believe whatever you find on the internet)
2. Does not rely on Wakefield
3. Can show correlation between rise in autism and MMR vaccine (need not be causation)

[Zippyjuan]

Vaccines and childhood encephalitis was brought up.


It is now generally thought that the process of encephalitis, whether from wild viruses of live-virus vaccines, is associated with an interference with the myelination process brought about by the development of antibodies against myelin basic protein, a constituent of the myelin sheaths .4

In theory there are several mechanisms whereby the MMR vaccine could have increased potency to induce harmful autoantibodies (antibodies which attack the body's own tissues and organs, including the myelin sheathes), once injected into the human system.

Some info on it's epidemiology:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9243237

Epidemiology of encephalitis in children. A prospective multicentre study.

Abstract

We found 175 cases with acute encephalitis in a population of 791,712 children aged 1 month-15 years during a 2-year surveillance period in 1993-1994. The overall incidence was 10.5/100,000 child-years with the highest figure in children < 1 year of age, 18.4/100,000 child-years. The microbial diagnosis was considered proven or suggested in 110 cases (63%); varicella zoster, respiratory and enteroviruses comprised 61% of these, and adeno, Epstein Barr-, herpes simplex and rota viruses comprised 5% each. A clearcut change seems to have occurred in the aetiology of encephalitis. Mumps, measles, and rubella virus associated encephalitides have been almost eliminated. Varicella zoster, respiratory, and enteroviruses have increased in frequency and occur in younger age groups. New causes were identified, especially Chlamydia pneumoniae and HHV-6. Our data should assist in making a specific diagnosis and defining appropriate antimicrobial therapy. CONCLUSIONS: The spectrum of encephalitis in children has changed due to vaccination programs. The incidence, however, appears to be about the same due to increasing frequency of other associated old and new microbes.




If the theory in the article was correct, there should be an increase in encephalitis cases and incidence- but that has not been observed. It has held steady.

[Weston White]

I actually looked for those articles on pubmed, do you know how to do that? If you did, you'd actually know what the articles say. They are not studies on either autism or MMR, they are commentary, the few that I looked are criticizing Wakefield.

No, those are titles of studies (i.e., citations), some of which appear to also include commentary along with quotations of such studies.

OK, 252 queries on the topic were returned at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%2Bmmr%20%2Bautism


A blind and published study (if you don't know what that means, its no wonder you believe whatever you find on the internet)

You are not going to find many, if any, published, peer reviewed studies addressing such adverse findings within its own professional industry. Ergo, the professional groups or universities that conduct such studies, in most all cases, depend largely upon respective funding to continue their research, profession, livelihood, and whatnot, the establishment proving that funding is not going to continue doing so if those their funding are making public reports that prove their products faulty or dangerous.

And when did I state that I believe everything that I find on the Internet; sorry, I must have entirely missed when and where I wrote that commentary?



Can show correlation between rise in autism and MMR vaccine (need not be causation)

Me, personally? No, I am neither a medical practitioner nor scientist. I do however have a nose and can smell when something stings perfectly fine.

[liberdom]

No, those are titles of studies (i.e., citations), some of which appear to also include commentary along with quotations of such studies.

OK, 252 queries on the topic were returned at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%2Bmmr%20%2Bautism


Not everything that comes up in Pubmed is a scientific study.

*facepalm*

Yes, I am aware there's hundreds of articles you can find if you look for mmr+autism, most of them will tell you "no link" they are responding to Wakefield's lies.



You are not going to find many, if any, published, peer reviewed studies addressing such adverse findings within its own professional industry.


Finally, something honest. Although I disagree all scientists are vaccine motivated, which is what people want to suggest.

We can disagree on why there are no studies, but I am glad you are willing to admit it.



Ergo, the professional groups or universities that conduct such studies, in most all cases, depend largely upon respective funding to continue their research, profession, livelihood, and whatnot, the establishment proving that funding is not going to continue doing so if those their funding are making public reports that prove their products faulty or dangerous.


Hypocrisy, that Wakefield is given a free pass on this, because he tells people what they want to believe.



And when did I state that I believe everything that I find on the Internet; sorry, I must have entirely missed when and where I wrote that commentary?


You don't need to. Your ignorance on scientific literature and faith in MMR-autism link is proof enough of it. But I am glad you admit there is virtually no peer reviewed blind study that can even show a correlation link. (You can speculate why there isn't, but you admitted there isn't, and you automatically believe Wakefield is right)



Me, personally? No, I am neither a medical practitioner nor scientist. I do however have a nose and can smell when something stings perfectly fine.

So tell me, why is Wakefield given a free pass to the scrutiny you give to scientists? Why is he automatically believed, and his adversaries automatically demonized? Why is there a blatant double standard when it comes to credibility, conflict of interest, reproducibility..etc?

Are you open minded to the possibility Wakefield is wrong? I am open to him being right.

[Weston White]

Alright, as another example (concerning peer reviews, published reports, etc.), one could argue the very same thing about the recent global warming, climate change [enter a new "greenhouse gas" catchy phrase here] international scam. So tell me did you fall for “Blood and Gore’s” CO2 carbon-trading tomfoolery to?


Also, here is a bit more on the Wakefield situation:

Doctor from MMR controversy wins High Court appeal - next up, Dr. Andrew Wakefield himself (http://www.naturalnews.com/035256_Professor_Walker-Smith_MMR_vaccines_High_Court.html)
Dr. Andrew Wakefield takes legal action against Brian Deer, BMJ and Godlee (http://www.naturalnews.com/034974_Andrew_Wakefield_BMJ_lawsuit.html)
BMJ had secret financial ties to Merck during publication of articles attacking Wakefield (http://www.naturalnews.com/033516_BMJ_financial_ties.html)



1/3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4PeLtH6RWY
2/3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emSSpcvoA8Y&feature=relmfu
3/3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLGr7GhBlbM&feature=relmfu

[juleswin]

From those 250-500 K deaths 80% are probably in Africa and Southern Asia.In my country there was only 1 confirmed death from swine flu ( in a population of 2,3 million ) and he was already hospitalized before being infected with swine flu and had kidney failure.

Even from all of those season flu deaths most of them are probably in the same place Africa and Southern Asia .

As someone who grew up in Africa(nigeria), whose MD father practiced in Nigeria for years, who has friends from many different African country and family still living in Nigeria, I can tell you one thing for sure. Seasonal flu virus has to be the rarest disease/illness in the whole continent, no african friend of mine had ever heard of it before coming to the states and am not saying it doesnt exist in Africa but its not a common problem like it is in the states. Virtually nobody gets the vaccine, the general population probably doesnt know it exists and I for some reason never contracted anything close to it while living there (except malaria which is different from seasonal flu because it comes with body chilis, night sickness and achy joints)

As someone who has had the flu (Atleast what I thought was the flu after leaving Nigeria) and malaria and who knows how hard it is to collect accurate health data in most African countries, I can promise you that most of those so called seasonal flu deaths were malaria deaths and one problem in Africa is people that are malnourished and/or old die just about from any disease you can think off. So whose to say its not the lack of nutrition and or old age that is the real cause of death instead of the disease

So I take that African data with a huge grain of salt.

[donnay]

Vaccines and childhood encephalitis was brought up.



Some info on it's epidemiology:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9243237


If the theory in the article was correct, there should be an increase in encephalitis cases and incidence- but that has not been observed. It has held steady.



The Physician's Desk Reference, in its section on the MMR vaccine, states that complications from MMR, such as encephalitis and optic neuritis, occur "very rarely." This is the conventional view, sincerely held by a majority of doctors, but where does the truth lie? Could it be that adverse consequences to MMR vaccine are occurring on a larger scale than officially recognized?

Hypothetical model for MMR vaccine as a cause of encephalitis Nerve cells of the brain function by conducting nerve impulses, Much like electrical wiring, these cells require insulation to function normally. This insulation is provided by myelin sheaths, made up largely of fatty material. For the most part myelination of nerve cells of the brain does not commence until after birth. Most is laid down during the first 5 years of normal development.

It is now generally thought that the process of encephalitis, whether from wild viruses of live-virus vaccines, is associated with an interference with the myelination process brought about by the development of antibodies against myelin basic protein, a constituent of the myelin sheaths .4

In theory there are several mechanisms whereby the MMR vaccine could have increased potency to induce harmful autoantibodies (antibodies which attack the body's own tissues and organs, including the myelin sheathes), once injected into the human system.

http://www.whale.to/v/buttram.html



Rise in encephalitis cases at Kasturba Hospital
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rise-in-encephalitis-cases-at-kasturba-hospital/880772/

New study shows rise in cases of Eastern equine encephalitis among people in Mass.
http://www.aardvarks2zebras.org/2012/05/eastern-equine-encephalitis-massachusetts/

Murray Valley Encephalitis cases on the rise in Western Australia
http://touristkilled.com/murray-valley-encephalitis-cases-on-the-rise-in-western-australia/

Assam: Japanese Encephalitis toll at 11
http://www.newkerala.com/news/newsplus/worldnews-45236.html#.T_Bi0VtNrEc

Equine encephalitis cases in Michigan rise to 130 so far this year
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2010/10/equine_encephalitis_cases_in_m.html

Warning: Cases of Eastern equine encephalitis and West Nile virus are on the rise
http://www.beacononlinenews.com/news/daily/2842

Ready to assist encephalitis-hit Bihar: WHO
http://tdnpost.com/news/latest-posts/ready-to-assist-encephalitis-hit-bihar-who-52227.html

Encephalitis toll rises to 209 in Bihar
http://zeenews.india.com/news/bihar/encephalitis-toll-rises-to-209-in-bihar_782982.html

The First Reported Case of California Encephalitis in More Than 50 Years
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/7/3/01-7316_article.htm


India halt vaccine programmes after the deaths of four children
http://www.weeklyblitz.net/962/india-halt-vaccine-programmes-after-the-deaths

Vaccine programmes grind to a halt in India once more, when four children died after they received the measles vaccination in Lucknow. The four children were reported to have fainted soon after they were vaccinated and witnesses reported seeing the children's eyes roll back as they began to have seizures. All of the children were under the age of two years of age, with the youngest being just six months. Sadly the children died before medical aid workers could reach them.

As news of the deaths spread, immunization drives in 41 villages have been halted until further investigations have taken place.

The Indian Express stated in their article 4 children die within minutes of vaccination - www.indianexpress.com that-

"The immunisation programme was being conducted as part of the government's Jachha Bachha Suraksha Abhiyan launched on August 15. Minutes after vaccination, the children started gasping for breath."

NDTV reported that the Health Ministry has ordered an inquiry after the four infants, all believed to be below nine months, died after the vaccine. The inquiry team has yet to reach Uttar Pradesh, however, the Uttar Pradesh government has announced compensation for the families of the victims.

This is not the first report of adverse reactions after the measles vaccination. The measles vaccine has had a dubious and rather tainted history. In the UK, a government report dating back to 1968 , exposed on the website VacTruth.com in May of this year stated:-

Section 6 – Reactions

"Mild febrile reactions and transient rashes may be expected to follow the administration of the vaccine in a substantial proportion of cases. The rise of body temperature which may occur from 5 to 10 days after vaccination – usually about the 8th day – is due to the multiplication of the attenuated virus. This febrile reaction, when it occurs, seldom lasts more than 24 to 48 hours. The Committee on Safety of Drugs has agreed that severe and unusual reactions to measles vaccine should be reported on the yellow card used for reporting adverse reactions to drugs. The Committee does not however, wish to receive reports of mild febrile reactions and rashes associated with the use of this vaccine."

This proves that the UK government as far back 1968 knew that the measles vaccine gave children adverse reactions, in fact, after reading the papers it is very clear that they were quite happy to be offering babies a vaccine that they admit, in a substantial proportion of cases, gives them high fevers and rashes.

That same report stated in section 7 that it was unwise for this vaccine to be given to children under the age of 9 months.

"Section 7 – Routine Vaccination

The live measles vaccine should not be given to children below the age of nine months since it usually fails to immunise such children, owing to the presence of maternally transmitted antibodies."

The Joint Committee of Vaccination and Immunization who advise the government said that the vaccine should instead be given to children in their second year of life after the completion of the immunisation against diphtheria, tetanus whooping cough and polio.!

Yet it appears that none of this was ever even considered before the children of India were vaccinated.

In India ,this is the third vaccine disaster this year. In April the Indian Times wrote an article Hib vaccine: Are press releases telling whole truth? - Health … and reported that their country was being misled over the effectiveness of the HIB vaccine. The vaccine for Haemophilus influenzae type b (the main cause of childhood meningitis and pneumonia) was advertised as being safe and effective however, in the Medical Journal of Medical Research three senior paediatricians accused three agencies, USAID, John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health the Hib Initiative and the GAVI Alliance of misrepresentation of the facts by selectively and inaccurately reporting the actual findings of the Bangladesh Hib probe study in order to promote the vaccine's wider use. The India Times said :-

"According to the Agencies joint press release the results of the Bangladesh study conducted in 2007 "showed that the routine immunization of infants with the Hib conjugate vaccine prevented over one-third of life-threatening pneumonia cases and approximately 90 per cent of Hib meningitis cases".

It further said "this vaccine study builds on the evidence of the real burden of Hib pneumonia" in Indonesia.

Both these statements argue in favour of Hib vaccination in developing countries through "selective interpretation/presentation of the actual research findings", says Jacob Puliyel at St. Stephens Hospital in New Dehli and one of the doctors finding fault with the press release.

The Bangladesh study compared Hib vaccination status among children with confirmed pneumonia or meningitis against those without these diseases (controls). The major finding that there was "no difference" in the Hib vaccination status of children with pneumonia compared to community controls was omitted in the press release, the Indian doctors claim.

The study also found that among those who received all three doses of the vaccine, there was "no statistically significant protective effect" against either confirmed meningitis or probable meningitis but it found statistical significance in a sub-group that received only two doses of the vaccine."

The Times continued:-

"The press release made another misrepresentation by saying the study "builds on" evidence of the burden of Hib pneumonia from Indonesia whereas the Indonesia study actually reported more pneumonia in the Hib vaccinated group than controls, says Puliyel.

In fact, the Indonesia study paper concludes by saying

" Hib Vaccine" will not have a major role in efforts to reduce the overall burden of respiratory illness.....as improvements in nutritional status, maternal education and socioeconomic status" (can have)."

Sadly India were to be told further vaccine lies again in April this year, this time relating to the Gardasil vaccine. In an article I wrote at the time India suspends use of HPV Gardasil vaccines :: Weekly Blitz I reported the following:-

"It seems that the HPV vaccine Gardasil manufactured by Merck, has been in the spotlight again this week, as the news pours in that the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) has decided to immediately suspend it's cervical cancer control vaccination programme for girls. The action was taken after 4 girls died and 120 were injured after receiving the vaccine."

Further on I continued by adding:-

"The programme was marred by controversy after four deaths and complications among 120 girls were reported after vaccination. The girls complained of stomach disorders, epilepsy, headaches and early menarche. Women activists fear the vaccine may impact the mental health of girls who have shown no signs of distress so far."

A few weeks later a letter appeared on the front page of the The Hindu on the 14th April 2010 to Azad that read:-

"Another issue which unfortunately has not been addressed in your letter is the conflict of interest involved in the PATH project. This NGO is a partner of the manufacturing company MERCK in other projects.

As a partner, it can be easily understood that the conflict arises from the interests of the subjects of the project, in this case children, on the one hand, and the vaccine manufacturer, on the other.

If there is not to be a cover-up of what appears prima facie to be a case of connivance with a vaccine manufacturing company in violation of set guidelines, I would once again request you to kindly look into the aspect of the inquiry, both in its terms of reference and in its composition."

So if The Hindu's research is correct and all indications show that it is, the NGO can hardly be classified as impartial, can he?

The campaign group the Truth about Gardasil were disgusted by these revaluations. India was at the time a country trying to come to terms with the fact that their children were used as part of an experiment, when all the time it was known that the vaccine used had been seen to cause adverse reactions worldwide.

The Truth about Gardasil put out a press release stating:

"Where is representation for the families of the four young tribal girls in Khammam district who died following the vaccination? Where is representation from the 70 public health organizations, networks, medical professionals, human rights groups and women's organizations that brought the HPV vaccine campaign in India to its knees on April 7, 2010 by voicing their intense opposition to the unethical nature of the HPV vaccination 'projects' conducted in Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat by PATH International, in collaboration with ICMR and State Governments?

Where are these organizations now? Perhaps they will be allowed to sit in the balcony of their congressional hall just as the women adversely affected by the first birth controls pills in the 1960's had to do as they listened to senate testimony orated by men as they argued the risks and benefits in January of 1971."

However, the deaths did not stop there as the death toll in India rose to 6 but according to the reports that followed none of the deaths had anything to do with this vaccine. One article reported the deaths of the 6 girls was not due to vaccine failure but according to Indian minister they were put down to various causes including, viral fever, drowning, suicide and a suspected snake bite.

If vaccines continue to injure and kill the children of India, India may decide to become the first country to ban vaccinations altogether, after all who could blame them?

As yet no one is sure why there have been so many vaccine disasters in India this year. It seems that false advertising by the drugs companies and conflicts of interest could be held responsible at least to some extent.

[liberdom]

Alright, as another example (concerning peer reviews, published reports, etc.), one could argue the very same thing about the recent global warming, climate change [enter a new "greenhouse gas" catchy phrase here] international scam.


Actually, it's good that you brought it up. Because global warming is supported by 99.99% of all peer reviewed articles on the subject. This is not absolute proof it is true, but about as good as you can get if you are to rely on science. Similarly, Wakefield's study has not only never been reproduced, but also is in the less than 0.01% of dissenting views.

You seem to automatically believe the dissenter and hold them to a lower standard, that is fine if you actually admit that. Somehow profit motives, conflicts of interest go out the window when somebody alleges a conspiracy theory and extraordinary claim.




So tell me did you fall for “Blood and Gore’s” CO2 carbon-trading tomfoolery to?


Blood and Gore are opportunists, not scientists, just like Lomborg and Monckton are not scientists. So I do not take their claims seriously. I do not advocate carbon taxation or trading, so no, I didn't fall for Gore & Blood's scam, they are not the inventors of global warming as you like to suggest.

[liberdom]

India halt vaccine programmes after the deaths of four children
http://www.weeklyblitz.net/962/india...ter-the-deaths

Vaccine programmes grind to a halt in India once more, when four children died after they received the measles vaccination in Lucknow. The four children were reported to have fainted soon after they were vaccinated and witnesses reported seeing the children's eyes roll back as they began to have seizures. All of the children were under the age of two years of age, with the youngest being just six months. Sadly the children died before medical aid workers could reach them.

This is what I mean about double standard.

Would you halt and ban all organic supplements or alternative medications just because 4 died using your approved methods?

Here's a classic example, when the superbug of Europe, e coli in cucumbers hit the news, organic eaters and conspiracy theorists do not demonize organic farming as they should, but instead, blame the media for scapegoating their sacred vegetables. They even go so far as to allege that it's big pharma and FDA working to stigmatize good farming techniques. Because no matter what happens, it is never the fault of organic foods and vegetables, there's always a bigger badder wolf behind it.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032622_ecoli_bioengineering.html

[Golding]

Meh, I've seen some patients die from the flu (whether the "swine flu" that was so hyped, I dunno). I don't find much personal benefit in the vaccine, given my personal state of health. The people I've seen die have a variety of other comorbidities that contribute to their overall susceptibility to harm from an illness. I'm fine with vaccinations and I'm fine with people who refuse them. I think Zippy's early comments are pretty accurate. The hype is overdone on both ends.

[donnay]

Merck vaccine fraud exposed by two Merck virologists; company faked mumps vaccine efficacy results for over a decade, says lawsuit

Thursday, June 28, 2012
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com (http://www.naturalnews.com/036328_Merck_mumps_vaccine_False_Claims_Act.html)

(NaturalNews) Breaking news: According to two Merck scientists who filed a False Claims Act complaint in 2010 -- a complaint which has just now been unsealed -- vaccine manufacturer Merck knowingly falsified its mumps vaccine test data, spiked blood samples with animal antibodies, sold a vaccine that actually promoted mumps and measles outbreaks, and ripped off governments and consumers who bought the vaccine thinking it was "95% effective."

See that False Claims Act document at:
www.naturalnews.com/gallery/documents/Merck-False-Claims-Act.pdf

According to Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski, both former Merck virologists, the Merck company engaged in all the following behavior:

• Merck knowingly falsified its mumps vaccine test results to fabricate a "95% efficacy rate."

• In order to do this, Merck spiked the blood test with animal antibodies in order to artificially inflate the appearance of immune system antibodies. As reported in CourthouseNews.com:

Merck also added animal antibodies to blood samples to achieve more favorable test results, though it knew that the human immune system would never produce such antibodies, and that the antibodies created a laboratory testing scenario that "did not in any way correspond to, correlate with, or represent real life ... virus neutralization in vaccinated people," according to the complaint. (http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm)

• Merck then used the falsified trial results to swindle the U.S. government out of "hundreds of millions of dollars for a vaccine that does not provide adequate immunization."

• Merck's vaccine fraud has actually contributed to the continuation of mumps across America, causing more children to become infected with mumps. (Gee, really? This is what NaturalNews has been reporting for years... vaccines are actually formulated to keep the outbreaks going because it's great for repeat business!)

• Merck used its false claims of "95 percent effectiveness" to monopolize the vaccine market and eliminate possible competitors.

• The Merck vaccine fraud has been going on since the late 1990's, say the Merck virologists.

• Testing of Merck's vaccine was never done against "real-world" mumps viruses in the wild. Instead, test results were simply falsified to achieve the desired outcome.

• This entire fraud took place "with the knowledge, authority and approval of Merck's senior management."

• Merck scientists "witnessed firsthand the improper testing and data falsification in which Merck engaged to artificially inflate the vaccine's efficacy findings," according to court documents (see below).

US government chose to ignore the 2010 False Claims Act!
Rather than taking action on this false claims act, the U.S. government simply ignored it, thereby protecting Merck's market monopoly instead of properly serving justice. This demonstrates the conspiracy of fraud between the U.S. government, FDA regulators and the vaccine industry.

Chatom Primary Care sues Merck for Sherman Act monopolization, breach of warranty, violation of consumer protection laws
Following the unsealing of this 2010 False Claims Act, Chatom Primary Care, based in Alabama, smelled something rotten. Three days ago, Chatom filed a lawsuit against Merck. That lawsuit record is available here:
www.naturalnews.com/gallery/documents/Chatom-Lawsuit-Merck-Mumps.pdf

It alleges, among other shocking things:

[Merck engaged in] ...a decade-long scheme to falsify and misrepresent the true efficacy of its vaccine.

Merck fraudulently represented and continues to falsely represent in its labeling and elsewhere that its Mumps Vaccine has an efficacy rate of 95 percent of higher.

In reality, Merck knows and has taken affirmative steps to conceal -- by using improper testing techniques and falsifying test data -- that its Mumps Vaccine is, and has been since at least 1999, far less than 95 percent effective.

Merck designed a testing methodology that evaluated its vaccine against a less virulent strain of the mumps virus. After the results failed to yield Merck's desired efficacy, Merck abandoned the methodology and concealed the study's findings.

...incorporating the use of animal antibodies to artificially inflate the results...

...destroying evidence of the falsified data and then lying to an FDA investigator...

...threatened a virologist in Merck's vaccine division with jail if he reported the fraud to the FDA...

...the ultimate victims here are the millions of children who every year are being injected with a mumps vaccine that is not providing them with an adequate level of protection. And while this is a disease that, according to the Centers for Disease Control ('CDC'), was supposed to be eradicated by now, the failure in Merck's vaccine has allowed this disease to linger, with significant outbreaks continuing to occur.

Chatom Primary Care also alleges that the fraudulent Merck vaccine contributed to the 2006 mumps outbreak in the Midwest, and a 2009 outbreak elsewhere. It says, "there has remained a significant risk of a resurgence of mumps outbreaks..."

This investigation is only beginning
NaturalNews has only begun to investigate this incredible breaking news about Merck and the vaccine industry. We are pouring through the court documents to identify additional information that may be relevant to this case, and we plan to bring you that information soon.

For the record, Merck denies all allegations. Is anyone surprised?

Sources for this article:
NaturalNews wishes to thank CourthouseNews.com for its coverage of this story. Original article at: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm

Chatom Lawsuit against Merck
www.naturalnews.com/gallery/documents/Chatom-Lawsuit-Merck-Mumps.pdf

2010 False Claims Act against Merck, by two Merck virologists
www.naturalnews.com/gallery/documents/Merck-False-Claims-Act.pdf

Announcement of the lawsuit in the media:
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/lawsuit-claims-merck-overstated-mumps-v...

[donnay]

This is what I mean about double standard.

Would you halt and ban all organic supplements or alternative medications just because 4 died using your approved methods?



Yes, because it must be determined, or at least investigated. You just don't carry on and say, "oh well." Humans are not guinea pigs! Four precious souls died from something it should be investigated thoroughly.




Here's a classic example, when the superbug of Europe, e coli in cucumbers hit the news, organic eaters and conspiracy theorists do not demonize organic farming as they should, but instead, blame the media for scapegoating their sacred vegetables. They even go so far as to allege that it's big pharma and FDA working to stigmatize good farming techniques. Because no matter what happens, it is never the fault of organic foods and vegetables, there's always a bigger badder wolf behind it.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032622_ecoli_bioengineering.html

E.coli is not a superbug. It sits in our lower intestines and colon. E.coli is everywhere, that is why it is good to wash your hands with soap and water (not antibacterial lotions, gels or creams), especially after using the restroom. Always wash your veggies/fruits to try and cut down the contamination rate. Good hygiene and good sanitation practices is key!

Nevertheless, below is a list of things that E.coli is found.


Meat, but especially any kind of ground meat (beef, lamb, or turkey) -- notably any pink or undercooked parts.

Contaminated water.

Dairy, even pasteurized. Yes, I know government "health experts" say this is only a problem with raw milk products. Not even close. Yes, pasteurization kills all E. coli, but contamination from post-pasteurization piping and equipment surfaces in contact with finished milk products is a problem.1 Interestingly, because "raw" dairy farmers know they can't rely on pasteurization to eliminate any contamination, they tend to be fanatical about keeping their cows and dairy raising environments clean so that no E. coli get into the milk in the first place, in addition to keeping all surfaces in their dairy operation clean so nothing is contaminated after the fact. On the other hand, many commercial dairies function as though pasteurization gives them a free pass and so tend to be much more lax in their cleanliness protocols, not only in cow cleanliness and their milking operations -- contamination as the milk exits a dirty cow teat is a real problem -- but also in their packaging operations. In fact, upwards of 10% of commercial dairy transported in bulk containers is contaminated by E. coli O157:H7. Keeping cows clean is obviously not a major priority for these dairies.2 They count on pasteurization to eliminate any bacteria after the fact, so why spend "unnecessary" money up front?

Vegetables, grown close to the ground (think spinach, lettuce, carrots, etc.) -- either contaminated by toxic fertilizer or by water that has come in contact with animal waste.

Sprouts can be a problem too since bacteria can stick tightly to the surface of seeds and can then lay dormant for months. Once water is added to make them grow, the number of bacteria carried within the seeds can reproduce up to 100,000 times. It appears this was at least the initial driving cause in the German outbreak.

Produce handled by contaminated hands after harvesting. This is a special problem in grocery stores as customers who may have E. coli on their hands (after changing a diaper, for example) grab, paw, squeeze, and thump fruits and vegetables -- and then place that food back in the bins -- thus spreading contamination to the entire bin…in addition to passing that contamination along to the next customer who picks up the produce. (This is something German health officials might want to look at as an additional problem in the current outbreak -- as different people handled the contaminated sprouts and then touched other produce.)



I also think the hype and hysteria over E.coli is a push to get people to accept irradiating our foods. By irradiating our foods, it will zap whatever nutrient that the food had in it, to zero--that is the bigger conspiracy!!

Source:
http://www.jonbarron.org/natural-health/e-coli-outbreak-germany

[Weston White]

Actually, it's good that you brought it up. Because global warming is supported by 99.99% of all peer reviewed articles on the subject. This is not absolute proof it is true, but about as good as you can get if you are to rely on science. Similarly, Wakefield's study has not only never been reproduced, but also is in the less than 0.01% of dissenting views.

That was exactly my point, those so-called “peer reviews” are part of the global warming/climate change conspiracy. Did you not hear about that huge international email scandal involving those so-called “scientists” and “researchers”, they were just making stuff up, they were manufacturing and falsifying evidence to support their desired result. On an international scale, they were black-balling real scientists and researchers that were in utter disagreement with fraud that was being perpetuated.

Have you ever actually listened to Wakefield’s explanation concerning his work? Are you aware that the industry profiting behind the scenes is entirely behind the effort to professionally crush him? Is there not a definite conflict of interest taking place in all of this?



You seem to automatically believe the dissenter and hold them to a lower standard, that is fine if you actually admit that. Somehow profit motives, conflicts of interest go out the window when somebody alleges a conspiracy theory and extraordinary claim.

That would depend on that facts and circumstances involving the “dissenter”, personally I do not just agree with a person because they are against the status quo or the widely accepted ideology. Profits you say? So who is it that you think stands to profit more or otherwise lose more, Merck, Roche, Bayer, Baxter, et al, or Mr. Wakefield?

So this was entirely manufactured to I suppose (21 homeless N1H1 test subjects killed in Poland) –this also includes a link to another nice article about how its failing nationalized health care system was intentionally killing patients for funeral commissions: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/2235676/Homeless-people-die-after-bird-flu-vaccine-trial-in-Poland.html

Also discussing the Gardasil (Guard-us-all) scam: http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/flashback-homeless-people-die-after-bird-flu-vaccine-trial-in-poland/



Blood and Gore are opportunists, not scientists, just like Lomborg and Monckton are not scientists. So I do not take their claims seriously. I do not advocate carbon taxation or trading, so no, I didn't fall for Gore & Blood's scam, they are not the inventors of global warming as you like to suggest.

No, Al Gore is a major player in all of this global warming/climate change provocateuring. Al Gore has been traveling around the world pushing this agenda for many years now, he is the one that devised the now discredited “documentary” An Inconvenient Truth (proven to be so in a UK court).

Many aspects of this entire debate need to involve little else than an individual’s common sense and discernment. For example, it should be common sense to know that injecting (or even consuming) heavy metals, toxic, synthetic chemicals into your veins is probably not the best idea (in whatever quantity). Regardless, it is far better just to have a nice cold glass of organic orange juice every now and then, to workout regularly, to avoid abusing substances and stressing situations, etc., rather than to risk becoming one of the 8,000 out of the 2,000,000 who will “suddenly” start suffering from seizures or Guillian-Barre, or whatever (and moreover will very likely never meet anybody suffering the ailment of whatever vaccination being taken, let alone contracting it themselves even if they were to).

[Weston White]

This is what I mean about double standard.

Would you halt and ban all organic supplements or alternative medications just because 4 died using your approved methods?

Now, that is the true distinction isn't it? Pitting our very own mother-nature against the establishment technocracy.

The establishment does not want a happy medium or compromise to be realized with nature they only want to utterly, shockingly, and devastatingly dominate over it, to reign supreme in every aspect. To the establishment our “Creator” had utterly failed in its creation of mankind and (luckily for us) to their own scientific devises, it is only they who can correct our course and set things right. …Sure, sure. I for one am sticking with mother-nature, but thank you so kindly for the offer.

[KingNothing]

This is what I mean about double standard.

Would you halt and ban all organic supplements or alternative medications just because 4 died using your approved methods?

Here's a classic example, when the superbug of Europe, e coli in cucumbers hit the news, organic eaters and conspiracy theorists do not demonize organic farming as they should, but instead, blame the media for scapegoating their sacred vegetables. They even go so far as to allege that it's big pharma and FDA working to stigmatize good farming techniques. Because no matter what happens, it is never the fault of organic foods and vegetables, there's always a bigger badder wolf behind it.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032622_ecoli_bioengineering.html

This is a great post. Why'd this fella get banned?

[Weston White]

This is a great post. Why'd this fella get banned?

Logically it is flawed, so really now, what exactly is so good about it?

[PaulConventionWV]

No, it's no amazing, because I rely on actual scientific evidence, and study, even if I am willing to believe they are wrong.

But Wakefield's study has long been debunked and you continue to cling on to it, something you will not see me doing.

This is the deal I make for anybody who wants to allege MMR-autism connection : (no takers up to date, they always move the goalpost or change the subject).

Find me ONE, JUST ONE (other than Wakefield), blind and published study that can even show CORRELATION between autism increase and MMR vaccine.
JUST CORRELATION, even better if you can show 2 independent studies.
I am willing to hand you causation without question if you can show me EVEN ONE CORRELATION STUDY. (remember, blind, published, and other than Wakefield).

If you are willing to admit you don't have it, fine. But don't yell "do your research" or complain I don't believe you. I never said you can't believe things without good evidence, but I am tired of people who can't even admit that.

How long are you going to refuse to even consider the idea that your second condition (published) CANNOT be fulfilled? Wakefield was an exception in that he was able to get his study published, but the government has a vice grip on the scientific community so that it has control of the truth. Control of science is of the utmost important to the globalists' agenda because it is the only way to ensure that your agenda determines the truth that the masses see. You are one of those people who just blindly accept what you hear from the scientific community because you blind yourself to the fact that their are biases within the scientific community that determine what kinds of studies can and cannot be published. The government has a vested interest in only allowing those things they want to be shown to be financed and researched and published. The whole scientific process is a lie because it hinges on the acceptance or refusal of independent research by a body of so-called "esteemed individuals" who can decide whether or not the study is worthy of being published and shown to the masses. It doesn't take much to realize this, but people refuse to even go past the, "If it's not published, it's not true" mentality because that would just shake their little worlds.

You are pathetic.

[Weston White]

…And in further consideration to the above post by PCWV, we realize (for it is now fairly well known), that modem manufacturers during the 1990’s had conspired to conveniently release (greatly overpriced) new product lines just in time for Christmas and that they had been withholding the technology that entire time, and also conveniently right after they reached the maximum baud-rate achievable by phone lines, out comes DSL-Broadband (RJ45) and then Cable-Internet shortly thereafter.

Moreover, we are also very well aware that the oil industry stands to monumentally loose out on the green movement, yet they are also funding initiatives for achieving its goals (ergo, in order to thusly control, direct, and manipulate it). We also know that the oil industry is heavily involved in price fixing, withholding related patent technologies, etc.

Thereby, it is both entirely reasonable and logical to expect that the medical industry, in all of its varying components, are doing the exact same thing; as are most all other dishonest industries, for the sum of their motivations are to their shareholders, at any and all costs, for they care not about the individual nor the collective, or the degradation of the environment or depletion of unrecoverable natural resources, or about the consequences to be faced by global posterities, nor are they fixated upon the childlike notion of a greater good for all humankind, but only about their bottom-line.

This is really about international conglomerations that have been given virtually free reign by governments across the globe; so their products (“unintentionally”) result in a death here and there, meanwhile netting them hundreds-of-millions in profits, oh such is simply a happenstance or their miscalculation, eh, just have them payout several million Dollars or so, in civil damages and then business as usual for them, no big deal, really.

And don’t pretend for even a second that the motivations of eugenicists do not play into all of these modern day global vaccination campaigns, pandemics, epidemics, and flurry of whatnots.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

There was a lot of fearmongering on both sides of this one- the anti-vaccine folks saying that getting shots would kill everybody and the ant-flu folks saying H1N1 could kill everyone. Both were wrong. Natural News is a good source for fear.

Sometimes it's a good source for shit to be afraid of. :) Sometimes.

[Weston White]

Oh, and look at that, from just this last week:

Whistleblowers: Merck hid declining efficacy of MMR shot (http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/whistleblowers-merck-hid-declining-efficacy-mmr-shot/2012-06-26)

Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/06/27/merck-whistleblower-suit-a-boon-to-anti-vaccination-advocates-though-it-stresses-importance-of-vaccines/)

[donnay]

Oh, and look at that, from just this last week:

Whistleblowers: Merck hid declining efficacy of MMR shot (http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/whistleblowers-merck-hid-declining-efficacy-mmr-shot/2012-06-26)

Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gerganakoleva/2012/06/27/merck-whistleblower-suit-a-boon-to-anti-vaccination-advocates-though-it-stresses-importance-of-vaccines/)



Validation that Big pHARMa doesn't care about any of us. They should be rounded up and charged with crimes against humanity! It is genocide!

[PatriotOne]

Oh, and look at that, from just this last week:

[url=http://www.fiercepharma.com/story/whistleblowers-merck-hid-declining-efficacy-mmr-shot/2012-06-26]Whistleblowers: Merck hid declining efficacy of MMR shot[/url

But Merck says the accusations are "completely without merit" and I believe them because they have an exemplary record of always telling the truth.

[donnay]

But Merck says the accusations are "completely without merit" and I believe them because they have an exemplary record of always telling the truth.


Please tell me you forgot to indicated at the end of your post-- [sarcasm]?

[PatriotOne]

Please tell me you forgot to indicated at the end of your post-- [sarcasm]?

Didn't forget. Was just trying out "dry sarcasm". It worked for Specs earlier when he praised Glen Beck :p.

[donnay]

Didn't forget. Was just trying out "dry sarcasm". It worked for Specs earlier when he praised Glen Beck :p.


:cool: Whew. It's hard to tell sometimes. I didn't think you really believed that, but I just wanted to clarify. Specs is hard to read as well.