Need ASAP advice of commercial fisher on bill proposing change in coastal fish-taking

[GunnyFreedom]

I sent a copy to AntiFed via DM but the vote on this is in something like 90 minutes and he may not be around, so I will post this to the broader GP board in case there is another person with commercial fishing experience who can weigh in on this subject.

Answer here, at glen.bradley@ncleg.net or at glen42@gmail.com

http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2011&BillID=s821&submitButton=Go

This bill, S821 does a bunch of things, among them adding a restriction on costal fisheries by prohibiting a specific method of fish-taking. I am generally opposed to random prohibitions, however if this is a real problem with resource depletion I am willing to consider it.


(e) Any person who takes menhaden or Atlantic thread herring by the use of a purse seine net deployed by a mother ship and one or more runner boats in coastal fishing waters is guilty of a Class A1 misdemeanor."

[GunnyFreedom]

Got a response from AF, apparently purse seine is an old method of taking menhaden, and menhaden are not endangered. The primary controversy is that the method also takes and kills fish (sometimes endangered) that are feeding on the menhaden, such as (I think it was last summer) when an obscene number of red drum were killed and discarded by this and washed ashore.

I am inclined to vote against the bill on AF's advice, though at least now I do understand why the proposal exists.

[Anti Federalist]

He's not very active, but RPF member "mad cow" would be another person I'd contact.

The cries of "by catch" are pretty standard when people are looking to ban yet another form of commercial fishing. The simple solution to that is to allow food fish by catch to be sold, rather than thrown overboard as "waste". Nothing, and I mean nothing, was more infuriating in my commercial fishing days, than having to throw back perfectly good food fish catch, that was dead already, because it did not meet some arbitrary government size limit.

Fishermen are restricted enough, as far as I'm concerned.

[GunnyFreedom]

So an amendment that would instead of making it a misdemeanor, "allow all fish taken other than those intended be sold as food rather than discarded" would be the best solution. I will try to get that written up in time for the bill to be heard

[Anti Federalist]

So an amendment that would instead of making it a misdemeanor, "allow all fish taken other than those intended be sold as food rather than discarded" would be the best solution. I will try to get that written up in time for the bill to be heard

Yes.

If restrictions are needed, then restrict the fishing days, but let everything that is caught that can be used, be sold, instead of thrown away as unlandable or "illegal" by-catch.

[tod evans]

Try and repeal the offending regulation(s) instead of passing new ones......Please!

[GunnyFreedom]

Have an amendment gong now, may be done in time even.

Would basically rewrite the section to read:

(e) Any person who takes menhaden or Atlantic thread herring by the use of a purse seine net deployed by a mother ship and one or more runner boats in coastal fishing waters is authorized to sell on the open market any fish not targeted that is legal to sell in that market, and is not required to discard those fish unintentionally taken by purse seine."

[GunnyFreedom]

Ten people lined up to speak on SB382 so there IS enough time for my amendment to get done woo hoo!

[GunnyFreedom]

Try and repeal the offending regulation(s) instead of passing new ones......Please!

I don't deal in regulations, only laws. If I just repeal the laws then the regulations will run amok. Taking the approach of "allowing" fish to be sold on the open market etc we are preventing regulations (ie repealing existing regulations) from being enforced.

[tod evans]

I don't deal in regulations, only laws. If I just repeal the laws then the regulations will run amok. Taking the approach of "allowing" fish to be sold on the open market etc we are preventing regulations (ie repealing existing regulations) from being enforced.

Geeze maybe a claymore is a better approach......(just kidding)......Do what's right Gunny!

[Anti Federalist]

Have an amendment gong now, may be done in time even.

Would basically rewrite the section to read:

(e) Any person who takes menhaden or Atlantic thread herring by the use of a purse seine net deployed by a mother ship and one or more runner boats in coastal fishing waters is authorized to sell on the open market any fish not targeted that is legal to sell in that market, and is not required to discard those fish unintentionally taken by purse seine."

Great job!

Good luck!

[GunnyFreedom]

Geeze maybe a claymore is a better approach......(just kidding)......Do what's right Gunny!

If by that you mean the sort of claymore that has a detonator and a detonation switch then I would tend to agree. ;)

[tod evans]

If by that you mean the sort of claymore that has a detonator and a detonation switch then I would tend to agree. ;)

Is there any other kind?

[GunnyFreedom]

Is there any other kind?

http://claymoresword.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/William-Wallace-claymore.jpg

[GunnyFreedom]

Great job!

Good luck!

Thanks, will report results in this thread. I actually trust the guy in drafting preparing the amendment so I have him the leeway to tighten up the language. If I had a whole day to work it I am sure I could come up with nearly perfect language for the amendment, but I literally scribbled it out on the fly, so we will see how much if any it improves.

[GunnyFreedom]

Hah! He is using the same "by-catch" term AF used. Shows how much I know about the legal language of commercial fishing...

[tod evans]

http://claymoresword.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/William-Wallace-claymore.jpg

Thanks for the education!

[GunnyFreedom]

OK, he did a very good job for the short time we had to work in. Here is the amendment text:

*S821-AMH-107-v-1*


Representative Bradley

moves to amend the bill on page 1, lines 13-15, by rewriting the lines to read:
(3) CLARIFYING THAT BYCATCH FROM THE TAKING OF MENHADEN OR ATLANTIC THREAD HERRING WITH A PURSE SEINE NET DEPLOYED BY A MOTHER SHIP AND ONE OR MORE RUNNER BOATS IN COASTAL FISHING WATERS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE DISCARDED AND MAY BE SOLD WHERE OTHERWISE LEGAL TO DO SO; (4) AMEND THE


and on page 3, lines 49-51, by rewriting the line to read:
"(e) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted to prevent any person who unintentionally takes additional species of fish while fishing for menhaden or Atlantic thread herring by the use of a purse seine net deployed by a mother ship and one or more runner boats in coastal fishing waters from selling those additional species of fish where such sale is not otherwise forbidden by any provision of law, or to require any person to discard such additional species of fish unintentionally taken.

[coastie]

By-catch can be a serious issue. Back in the mid-90's, they banned gill netting in Florida, and I can personally attest that the quality of fishing(recreational and commercial) increased SUBSTANTIALLY around here, the effects were almost immediate. Those things are horribly indiscriminate, and kill EVERYTHING that swims near them.

But I have to agree as someone who's been on BOTH sides of the fence-they are regulated entirely too much. Most of the laws written on fisheries are just a racket for NOAA-because that's who gets the fine money in the end.;)

Wish I could offer more, I was just a baby coastie when I did all the fisheries stuff in New England, and my ship really didn't do much fisheries anyway, mostly drugs and migrants.

[GunnyFreedom]

Yeah, I've been swarmed since the amendment was handed out. The issue is about 10,000 more complicated than it appears on the surface. Still working on finding light at the end of the tunnel, but the amendment as-is will need some tuning before it works...wracking my brain...

[lx43]

When I go deep sea fishing I hate catching a fish that is maybe a half inch to short and then have throw it back dead. I rather keep it.

[coastie]

When I go deep sea fishing I hate catching a fish that is maybe a half inch to short and then have throw it back dead. I rather keep it.

You better hope an asshole fisheries enforcement guy or gung-ho CG Fisheries Boarding Officer isn't around-you'd get fined for that dead one, too.

[lx43]

You better hope an asshole fisheries enforcement guy or gung-ho CG Fisheries Boarding Officer isn't around-you'd get fined for that dead one, too.

Really? You got to be kidding me? My understand was that if you throw it back they can't do anything.

[coastie]

Really? You got to be kidding me? My understand was that if you throw it back they can't do anything.

Nope, not kidding you. They encouraged us to do that in fisheries school, as a matter of fact.(For the record, I never did that).

[GunnyFreedom]

Maybe you should hang a sign on your hook/net/cage "Must be this long to get on this ride." :mad:

[GunnyFreedom]

There is no question I will be voting against the underlying bill. I will NOT be responsible for creating a new crime. The case has been made very effectively that the amendment could be extremely harmful to the immediate NC coastal waters, for reasons the extreme depth to which I cannot go into here, but can explain via PM for those who want to know.

[devil21]

Glen,
So are you not adding an amendment or do you have time to craft something better? My dad is very in-tune with fishing related issues off the Outer Banks so he might be someone you'd like to speak with. His OBX fishing boat rental business is the link in my sig. If you'd like to speak with him I can arrange something quickly. Im sure he'd love to give you his thoughts as a fishing business owner in the area in question.

[GunnyFreedom]

Glen,
So are you not adding an amendment or do you have time to craft something better? My dad is very in-tune with fishing related issues off the Outer Banks so he might be someone you'd like to speak with. His OBX fishing boat rental business is the link in my sig. If you'd like to speak with him I can arrange something quickly. Im sure he'd love to give you his thoughts as a fishing business owner in the area in question.

If I had time to craft something better that addresses the deeper unstated underlying issue, I would. I KNOW there is a way to fix this without creating a new crime, but it's not going to happen in the short time we have to come up with a methodology. The current solution took a battalion of lawyers a month to come up with. I figure a couple of us could come up with a better solution in a couple days but we are just out of time.

[devil21]

If I had time to craft something better that addresses the deeper unstated underlying issue, I would. I KNOW there is a way to fix this without creating a new crime, but it's not going to happen in the short time we have to come up with a methodology. The current solution took a battalion of lawyers a month to come up with. I figure a couple of us could come up with a better solution in a couple days but we are just out of time.

Wish I saw your thread earlier today. Save a reference to this thread and feel free to PM me if you'd like to get in contact with him (his number is also on the website so nothing preventing you from cold-calling as long as you mention you were referred to him by his son). He would be a very valuable information and policy resource on similar issues in the future or if you decide to revisit this bill/law for amendment later.

[mad cow]

I would not choose this hill to die on.You will have pretty much no one in N.C. in your corner.
All of the boats as described are owned by one company based in Reedville Va. and that is where the profits will end up,not in N.C.
N.C. commercial and pleasure fishermen and tourist industries reliant on fishing are all for this law,although the by catch excuse is hokum,even NOAA says the menhaden purse seine by catch is minuscule.

[GunnyFreedom]

I would not choose this hill to die on.You will have pretty much no one in N.C. in your corner.
All of the boats as described are owned by one company based in Reedville Va. and that is where the profits will end up,not in N.C.
N.C. commercial and pleasure fishermen and tourist industries reliant on fishing are all for this law,although the by catch excuse is hokum,even NOAA says the menhaden purse seine by catch is minuscule.

Yes, you know exactly what is going on with this bill then. Thanks for letting me know. In the end I ended up not running the amendment but still voting against the underlying bill. I believe that with 72 hours to brainstorm a better methodology could have been found to address the problem that the bill was trying to address (not bycatch) rather than creating some new crime.

[Anti Federalist]

Really? You got to be kidding me? My understand was that if you throw it back they can't do anything.


Nope, not kidding you. They encouraged us to do that in fisheries school, as a matter of fact.(For the record, I never did that).

Nope, he kids not.

Back in my time, 20 short fluke would have you facing more prison time than getting caught with a kilo of coke.

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, you know exactly what is going on with this bill then. Thanks for letting me know. In the end I ended up not running the amendment but still voting against the underlying bill. I believe that with 72 hours to brainstorm a better methodology could have been found to address the problem that the bill was trying to address (not bycatch) rather than creating some new crime.

I'm sure of that, wish it hadn't come up with so little warning.

Keep "mad cow" in the loop, he has quite a bit of experience in this, glad he was able to check in on this.

[oyarde]

Good job Glenn , AF , Mad Cow , pretty impressive .

[oyarde]

I find it refreshing to see some work done that includes good sense ! Hope you all have a Great Day !

[oyarde]

Is there any other kind? In my younger days I was pretty good with both , but I am too old to swing that hefty one now, makes my bursitus and tendonitus ache thinking about it .