Non-US citizens CAN NOT donate to US Ron Paul ChipIns! -Admin: Accuracy is questioned

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

Non US-citizens cannot directly or indirectly donate to a US federal election campaign -- only US citizens and permanent residents ("green card" holders). It is also illegal for you to solicit donations from non-US citizens.

Donating to a US-based Ron Paul ChipIn is indirectly funding a campaign. Is it worth getting the official campaign in hot water?


Official info here: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

[hard@work]

Huh. Interesting 2nd post. While I find myself agreeing to an extent, I'm not so sure about transferring money to US citizens.

edt. - http://www.wrmea.com/archives/July_Aug_2004/0407027.html

If they can do it why not Australians? Also, isn't Rupert Murdoch who runs FOX news an Aussie?

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

If you take money from a foreigner (who wants to donate but can't) and donate it to the campaign, you are committing election fraud. The media would love that.

Lisa C.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

Foreigners can donate to PACs -- they have to report to the FEC I believe.

Lisa C.

[torchbearer]

Why did you post a thread title that is an outright lie? Perhaps you thought this was the Fred Thompson Forum (http://www.fredthompsonforum.com)?

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

I have been working my ass off for the Ron Paul campaign so don't even try to go there. . .

Here you go, smart guy: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

Trever from http://thisnovember5th.com/ just phoned the FEC and spoke to them himself -- it is illegal for for foreigners to donate to US chipins. Contact Trevor through his website to confirm.

Lisa C.

[torchbearer]

I have been working my ass off for the Ron Paul campaign so don't even try to go there. . .

Here you go, smart guy: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

Trever from http://thisnovember5th.com/ just phoned the FEC and spoke to them himself -- it is illegal for for foreigners to donate to US chipins. Contact Trevor through his website to confirm.

Lisa C.

Hey, its your duty as a lawful citizen to report me to the FEC. I sponsored a chipin that foreigners contribute to and will be doing it again.
Have a feeling you aren't going to get very far with that indictment.

[Indy Vidual]

Non US-citizens cannot directly or indirectly donate to a US federal election campaign -- ...

Indirectly donate = Give to Pac which then donates to the campaign.
Doesn't it??
``````


Please, change the very misleading title.
"Non-US citizens CAN NOT donate to US Ron Paul ChipIns!"

Chip-ins are used for independent efforts not tied to a PAC, or the central campaign. The title is (possibly) false and might keep someone from donating.

Thank you


EDIT:

((Note added later))

Please, let this thread die, due to the uncertainty, and the negative title.
This thread is much better for RP supporters to debate. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=33891)

[torchbearer]

Indirectly donate = Give to Pac which then donates to the campaign.
Doesn't it??
``````


Please, change the very misleading title.
"Non-US citizens CAN NOT donate to US Ron Paul ChipIns!"

Chip-ins are used for independent efforts not tied to a PAC, or the central campaign. The title is (possibly) false and might keep someone from donating.

Thank you


exactly. If the money doesn't go to the campaign... it doesn't matter.
This person is either misunderstanding the words or is purposely spreading false information.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

The mainstream media would love to have something else to spin about Ron Paul.

Go ahead man, break election laws, you're a freakin' legend and an asset to the campaign.

[Indy Vidual]

Trever from http://thisnovember5th.com/ just phoned the FEC and spoke to them himself -- it is illegal for for foreigners to donate to US chipins...


The FEC does not understand how independently we operate.
The money never reaches Ron's HQ, not directly or indirectly.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

I'll make it easy for you:

Not a US citizen? Don't have a "green card"?

Do not donate to a US Chipin that uses its funds to promote the Ron Paul presidential campaign.

It is illegal and has been confirmed with a phone call to the FEC.

The title stands.

[torchbearer]

The mainstream media would love to have something else to spin about Ron Paul.

Go ahead man, break election laws, you're a freakin' legend and an asset to the campaign.

If I'm breaking the law, turn me in. Save the campaign from my criminal misconduct. If you need my contact info, pm me. the fed can come by and sieze my property while trying to see if I "funneled" foriegn donations to the campaign via chipin.
Which is illegal.
What I did.. is collect money to run an ad. For myself. Get it?

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

The FEC does not understand how independently we operate.
The money never reaches Ron's HQ, not directly or indirectly.
You explain it to the FEC -- until then -- it's illegal. I didn't say I agreed. I just don't want someone causing grief for Dr. Paul.

When a Meetup group buys "Ron Paul for President" signs and puts them up, they are working indirectly with the campaign. Using foreign money to help buy those signs is illegal.

[torchbearer]

Also- foriegners can use Chipins that support the RON PAUL FORUMS. They can use chipins for a billboard being bought by Billy Bob in Kansas.... and then they can legally drop money into a chipin that helps Stacey in Alaska paint Ron Paul all over her car...etc.
As long as the money donated does not ended up in the campaign... directly, or indirectly(meaning, i can't take their money and then donate it to the campaign as my own)

[Indy Vidual]

You explain it to the FEC -- until then -- it's illegal. I didn't say I agreed. I just don't want someone causing grief for Dr. Paul.

When a Meetup group buys "Ron Paul for President" signs and puts them up, they are working indirectly with the campaign. Using foreign money to help buy those signs is illegal.

You might be right.
Thanks, for trying to help. :)
We need to find out for certain (see below)



I'll make it easy for you:

Not a US citizen? Don't have a "green card"?

Do not donate to a US Chipin that uses its funds to promote the Ron Paul presidential campaign.

It is illegal and has been confirmed with a phone call to the FEC.

The title stands.

While you provide 'the simple version' let's take a closer look:

"Monitoring Prohibited Contributions

When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:..."

This is written "about federal political committees" which are registered.
We are independent individuals.
Ron Paul supports the rights of independent individuals.

````````

Maybe someone should ask the FEC very specific, detailed questions.[/B]
Do you know exactly what was asked??

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

Like I said, you're an asset to the campaign.

Your ad is indirectly promoting the Ron Paul campaign and you took foreign money to place the ad. Good for you. Hope it gets a few more votes for RP. I also hope nobody finds out about it.

You seem to know it all so why not just get on with it.

[Indy Vidual]

Also- foriegners can use Chipins that support the RON PAUL FORUMS. They can use chipins for a billboard being bought by Billy Bob in Kansas.... and then they can legally drop money into a chipin that helps Stacey in Alaska paint Ron Paul all over her car...etc.
As long as the money donated does not ended up in the campaign... directly, or indirectly(meaning, i can't take their money and then donate it to the campaign as my own)

I hope this is correct, it's what I was trying to say. :)
You spelled out the exact question which needs to be asked.
```````

IamVoting4RonPaul: Do you know exactly what question was asked??

[torchbearer]

Like I said, you're an asset to the campaign.

Your ad is indirectly promoting the Ron Paul campaign and you took foreign money to place the ad. Good for you. Hope it gets a few more votes for RP. I also hope nobody finds out about it.

You seem to know it all so why not just get on with it.

I don't know it all, but this isn't my first rodeo on the FEC tango line.
Of course, I have an attorney that govern all decisions... if he doesn't throw up a flag... its ok.
I believe your interpretation of "indirect contribution" is incorrect. My attorney states that you are incorrect. An indirect contribution is akin to money laundering. You have maxed out, so you give me money to donate. That is illegal. Its an indirect contribution. Now, if you give me money to run my own Ron Paul ad, that is perfectly legal.
The same definitions apply to foreigners.

[American]

torchbearer, your chasing away one of the few chicks we have here, relax..

Hi Lisa, glad you could make it....;)

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

I just don't get it. I know most of us went to public school but what part of indirectly don't you understand?

All Ron Paul Meetups are indirectly working with the Ron Paul campaign. They may be "independent" because the run outside of the campaign but the work they do indirectly promotes a candidate for a US federal election.

Foreigners can help by finding other Americans overseas, like myself.

[torchbearer]

torchbearer, your chasing away one of the few chicks we have here, relax..

Hi Lisa, glad you could make it....;)

Sorry, don't mind me... I'm an ass when i'm in pain, and i've been in pain for about 3 weeks.

[Indy Vidual]

You might be right.
Thanks, for trying to help. :)
We need to find out for certain...



Like I said...

You seem to know it all so why not just get on with it.

You missed the part where I clearly said:

You might be right.
Thanks, for trying to help. :)

``````

Do you know exactly what was asked on the phone??

[Indy Vidual]

I just don't get it. I know most of us went to public school but what part of indirectly don't you understand?


From your source:

"Monitoring Prohibited Contributions

When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:..."

This is written "about federal political committees" which are registered.
We are independent individuals.

[torchbearer]

I just don't get it. I know most of us went to public school but what part of indirectly don't you understand?

All Ron Paul Meetups are indirectly working with the Ron Paul campaign. They may be "independent" because the run outside of the campaign but the work they do indirectly promotes a candidate for a US federal election.

Foreigners can help by finding other Americans overseas, like myself.

I wouldn't insult the people who attended public school they had no choice.
Ron Paul Meet-ups are not considered as indirectly working for the campaign, because if they were, everything they do would be considered an "in-kind" contribution, and they'd have to stop all activities after they reached $2300 in individual in-kind contributions.
Since, that is not how it works... it is your education you need to re-examine. The meet-ups are in no way... not even "indirectly" tied to the campaign. As it is seen according to the law. That is why the campaign can not have any kind of control of the meet-ups or then the meet-ups are considered apart of the campaign and are limited by the laws you have stated.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

Call the FEC yourself and prove me wrong.

[Indy Vidual]

Call the FEC yourself and prove me wrong.

He told you about the advice of his trusted lawyer.
For some people that is enough.
````````

Hey nice thread title! :rolleyes:

Only mods can change thread titles, and now we are stuck with your (possibly false) claims chasing money away.

Good work :eek:

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

b) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection
with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly,
make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or
expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in
connection with any Federal, State, or local election.
(c) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals to political
committees and organizations of political parties. A foreign national
shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or donation to:
(1) A political committee of a political party, including a national
party committee, a national congressional campaign committee, or a
State, district, or local party committee, including a non-Federal
account of a State, district, or local party committee, or
(2) An organization of a political party whether or not the
organization is a political committee under 11 CFR 100.5.

[Indy Vidual]

From your source:

"Monitoring Prohibited Contributions

When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:..."

This is written "about federal political committees" which are registered.
We are independent individuals.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

He told you about the advice of his trusted lawyer.
For some people that is enough.
````````

Hey nice thread title! :rolleyes:

Only mods can change thread titles, and now we are stuck with your (possibly false) claims chasing money away.

Good work :eek:
Call the FEC and prove me wrong.

[torchbearer]

Call the FEC yourself and prove me wrong.

How would that prove you wrong? You wouldn't hear what they are telling me and you wouldn't believe me if I told you they agreed with me.
I've already talked with the FEC on many occassions... so has my secretary/attorney. I've ran a federal campaign. I was told very clearly what is a contribution, direct and indirect. in-kind...and cash.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but i have a bad reaction to misinformation. You are 90% correct....and i've already listed the 10%.
It is illegal for foriegners to donate to the campaign, both directly and indirectly. that is true.
But someone sending me money to run an ad in my local paper is not an indirect contribution to ron paul's campaign.
For instance, If I was maxed out, I couldn't donate directly or indirectly to the campaign right?
I can still run my ads in the paper because it doesn't count as an indirect donation to the campaign.
But, If I gave you money to donate to the campaign... that would be illegal... that would be me indirectly donating to the campaign after I was maxed out.
Are you seriously not understanding what I am saying or are you just messing with me?

[Indy Vidual]

IamVoting4RonPaul: Please, let this thread die, due to the uncertainty, and the negative title.
Since you support Ron, please debate in the other thread.

Thank you

[NinjaPirate]

Hillary took donations from illegal Chinese immigrants, so why can't we? :p

[Indy Vidual]

Hillary took donations from illegal Chinese immigrants, so why can't we? :p

Hi,

Please, let this thread die, due to the uncertainty, and the negative title.
This thread is much better for RP supporters to debate. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=33891)

Thank you

[torchbearer]

Tyou're a freakin' legend and an asset to the campaign.

Was that about me? I didn't even notice that at first... is this common knowledge? I had no idea I had achieved legendary status here... ;)
I just know, that I'm all in until the end... and I do have the ability to make things happen.
I will call the FEC, again, tomorrow... and ask them, again, to verify my line of thinking... and I will do this out of my respect for you... at least you stand for something... some people in here are still afraid to make that stand. -but- They will in time.

[Lord Xar]

I will question the first posters views. How can the official get in HOT water if they do not condone this behaviour NOR are they aware of it?

First off. IF the chipin is UNDER 1,000 (1 thousand) dollars, then, NO FCC info is needed to be supplied.

For instance,

IF you sell an item on EBAY for $1, with $100 shipping, an international supporter can buy that item etc...

If you an international supporter donates to a chipin that is under 1K, then the owner of the chipin is the only one that has to supply the information... because anything under 1K no PAC is required to be created.

that is my 2 cents.

[greves]

Is it not perfectly legal for a non-American citizen to buy a product, say, a thumb-tack, from an American for €100, and for that American person to donate his newly earned $1,000 (I forget the exchange-rate, but I know it's something in the vicinity of 10:1 right? Will be soon, anyway.) to the campaign? What is illegal about that?

[torchbearer]

Is it not perfectly legal for a non-American citizen to buy a product, say, a thumb-tack, from an American for €100, and for that American person to donate his newly earned $1,000 (I forget the exchange-rate, but I know it's something in the vicinity of 10:1 right? Will be soon, anyway.) to the campaign? What is illegal about that?

As long as the transaction isn't done with the intent to divert funds to the campaign, there is nothing illegal about it.

[greves]

So let's say we come up with a code word, like RP2008, to put in our eBay auction titles so that people know we will be donating proceeds to RP. Hell, the bidders and sellers can talk to each other and ask/confirm.

/Oh wait, this already happened.
//Oh wait, you could just have a friend wire you money, and no one will ever know what the intent was.
///Oh wait, both of the above points were obvious, so I shouldn't even have bothered to make them.
////But wait, doesn't that make this entire thread ridiculous?
/////I'm an American living abroad and about 200EUR and 75GBP have been wired through me to the campaign. If anyone asks, I sold them an old loaf of bread.


***DELETE THIS THREAD***

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Don't delete this thread, it's important!

I am not American either, and I have looked into this already. The initial poster is 100% correct. A Foreigner may not give money, directly or indirectly to the campaign. If he pays for ads, it must not promote a particular candidate, but may discuss issues and declare a candidate the champion of those issues.

I can't run an add saying: Ron Paul is the man, vote for him!. That's illegal.
I can run and ad saying. The constitution is the bedrock of this great nation. Ron Paul is the only one wanting to restore the constitution.

And just for a case-closed ending to this post. I contacted the campaign a few weeks ago and asked them and made them research this for me.


The only exception to the ban on foreign citizen campaign contributions appears to be for those foreign nationals with "permanent residence" status.

See: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml for more information.

Thanks for your interest in the campaign.

joe

Joseph F. Becker, Chief Legal Advisor and Policy Director
Ron Paul 2008 Presidential Campaign Committee
2674 S Patton CT
Denver, Colorado 80219
303-937-1787
303-379-1621 (fax)
XXXXXXXXXX@RonPaul2008.com
http://www.RonPaul2008.com

[torchbearer]

Don't delete this thread, it's important!

I am not American either, and I have looked into this already. The initial poster is 100% correct. A Foreigner may not give money, directly or indirectly to the campaign. If he pays for ads, it must not promote a particular candidate, but may discuss issues and declare a candidate the champion of those issues.

I can't run an add saying: Ron Paul is the man, vote for him!. That's illegal.
I can run and ad saying. The constitution is the bedrock of this great nation. Ron Paul is the only one wanting to restore the constitution.

And just for a case-closed ending to this post. I contacted the campaign a few weeks ago and asked them and made them research this for me.

Or you can give me money, and I can run any ad I want. You forgot that option.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Well I'm sure there's lots of other options. I provide free DVDs to my meetup groups so they can hand them out for instance. I do a lot of stuff on the web for Ron Paul that costs a lot. By the time the election rolls around, I will have spent well over $2300 trying to get Ron Paul elected.

I just created this for instance:
http://www.ronpaulvideopodcast.com/

[SwordOfShannarah]

Hey all- I'm not a lawyer but I did make that phone call. I can't say for sure if there is a work around or not but I was told that no non- U.S. citizen can donate any money that would effect the outcome of an election, not even for grassroots efforts (which I stated I was). For me personally, I feel I'll be scrutinized greatly and don't want to take the chance.

I know so many people from other nations want so badly to have some effect on our elections because our elections effect so many people all over the world. All I can say (for those in other nations who read this) is your free labor is 100% legal. PROMOTE TeaParty07.com like crazy. That way your work and efforts will translate into money for the election.

Tell all your friends to promote, email people personally on myspace and ask them to learn about Ron Paul- do whatever you can in the social networks to spread his name. Win or lose this election we must change congress in order to win.. so the fight has truly just begun. Promoting Ron Paul paves the road towards taking back congress. We have not truly won until we have done this so get ready for a long haul. If we commit to that we will prevail.

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

The "spirit" of the law is to keep non-US citizens and permanent residents from contributing to a US election. What Hillary does is absolutely no concern of mine. My concern is helping, not hurting, Dr. Paul in any way.

I am an overseas American and there are many things to be done outside the US. In the last presidential election, it was estimated that between 3 and 6 million Americans are abroad -- we should be running ads in our own papers -- Sydney, Melbourne, London, Hong Kong, etc.

[SwordOfShannarah]

The "spirit" of the law is to keep non-US citizens and permanent residents from contributing to a US election. What Hillary does is absolutely no concern of mine. My concern is helping, not hurting, Dr. Paul in any way.

I am an overseas American and there are many things to be done outside the US. In the last presidential election, it was estimated that between 3 and 6 million Americans are abroad -- we should be running ads in our own papers -- Sydney, Melbourne, London, Hong Kong, etc.

That's a great point. U.S. law doesn't apply to non- U.S. citizens (only to us if we accept your contributions).

Non U.S. citizens could create websites about related topics (about the war, the scandals, etc.) and put links/ info about Ron Paul on their own sites. Because the site isn't about Ron Paul you could advertise anywhere you like, even on American websites.. probably even on grassroots websites.. :)

[american.swan]

Hey all- I'm not a lawyer but I did make that phone call. I can't say for sure if there is a work around or not but I was told that no non- U.S. citizen can donate any money that would effect the outcome of an election, not even for grassroots efforts (which I stated I was). For me personally, I feel I'll be scrutinized greatly and don't want to take the chance.

I know so many people from other nations want so badly to have some effect on our elections because our elections effect so many people all over the world. All I can say (for those in other nations who read this) is your free labor is 100% legal. PROMOTE TeaParty07.com like crazy. That way your work and efforts will translate into money for the election.

Tell all your friends to promote, email people personally on myspace and ask them to learn about Ron Paul- do whatever you can in the social networks to spread his name. Win or lose this election we must change congress in order to win.. so the fight has truly just begun. Promoting Ron Paul paves the road towards taking back congress. We have not truly won until we have done this so get ready for a long haul. If we commit to that we will prevail.

Your probably right. I wouldn't be surprised at all with what your saying as being accurate. I can just imagine hundreds in the street angry that some foreign national affect our election. I just have two questions. Can you show me the law that says that a Foreigner can't do ANYTHING, even grassroots to affect an election, and also the one about US citizens having to pay income tax would be nice while your at it.

[american.swan]

The "spirit" of the law is to keep non-US citizens and permanent residents from contributing to a US election. What Hillary does is absolutely no concern of mine. My concern is helping, not hurting, Dr. Paul in any way.

I am an overseas American and there are many things to be done outside the US. In the last presidential election, it was estimated that between 3 and 6 million Americans are abroad -- we should be running ads in our own papers -- Sydney, Melbourne, London, Hong Kong, etc.

Remember the voting fraud in Armed Madhouse, almost if not all mailed ballots will be trashed. Just so you know.

[Nefertiti]

One of the issues that is high on my list of reasons I support Ron Paul is his policy of non-intervention. You see, I'm a dual citizen and the other country I am a citizen of is on the receiving end of US money that is used to influence my other government. I can see what kind of harm can come from foreign meddling.

Whatever the FEC says is acceptable or not, I find it appalling that a Ron Paul supporter would encourage foreigners to contribute money to campaign efforts. It is a violation in spirit of everything that Ron Paul stands for and is the ultimate hypocrisy. You don't know the source of that overseas money you are accepting-it could be just some unhappy factory worker in Ukraine, or the real source could be a foreign government trying to influence our elections for its own benefit. In any case, non-US nationals contributing money to the campaign do not have the best interest of the US in mind when they contribute, and in fact they may wish something detrimental for us. This must be a US only campaign. If we can't win this campaign without foreign money then we might as well all surrender ourselves to the Chinese right now and start working in their mines to pay off our debt.

In fact, I feel so strongly about this issue that I am thinking of writing to some Congressmen and suggesting they make a bill that makes encouraging foreign meddling in elections a treason offense. Yes, what some people are suggesting in these forums I consider treasonous.

As others have suggested, foreigners may do what they want overseas in support of Ron Paul. They can write articles in their local papers, lobby Americans overseas, whatever. We can't control what foreigners do in their own countries and that is totally within the spirit of what Ron Paul believes in. But it is unacceptable that we have American citizens trying to sell our country to the highest bidder on Ebay.

[jordie]

In any case, non-US nationals contributing money to the campaign do not have the best interest of the US in mind when they contribute, and in fact they may wish something detrimental for us.

Thats a load of ......

I'm Australian, I don't wish anything detrimental to America. We'd be part of the Japanese empire if it wasn't for America during WW2. Australia has been the most loyal freedom loving partner to America.

I very much support America and its constitutional foundations. The entire free world has always looked to America as the "big brother" that put freedom and liberty above all, a model we all want to emulate. How can we emulate it when the constitution is being ripped apart by the likes of George Bush and co? We want to see America be America and Ron Paul is the best damn chance at that.

I respect your opinion on not wanting foreign monetary contributions, but to be honest if there was a genuine candidate here in Australia who was the underdog, but stood up for what was right, I'd take all the support I could get.

We're not here to see bad things happen to America. If we wanted that we sure as hell wouldn't support the most liberty loving candidate. We're here to help and offer our assistance. Though, we are not prepared to indulge in any illegal activity at all. We do not want to be responsible for causing the campaign trouble nor do we want to let any American be decriminalized by our actions.

[SwordOfShannarah]

Whatever the FEC says is acceptable or not, I find it appalling that a Ron Paul supporter would encourage foreigners to contribute money to campaign efforts.

Well what is appalling is our interference in democratic elections of other nations, dropping bombs on children, etc. Put things into perspective please. What goes on here is life and death for many around the world so lets keep off the soap box.

I've received an email asking if I can confirm things about the phone call. The truth is if we want a real/exact answer we need a lawyer we can trust to make the call/ review the law. I'm thinking its doubtful we can accept them but I would love it if we could.

The one thing they said non citizens can do without any problems is contribute labor. That's why I suggest using the internet to promote the money bomb events to Americans. Spread the word about Ron Paul in your nation, create a website, get everyone to promote it and monitor your success through traffic generated, etc. Also you can use stats to see where traffic is coming form. Try to keep it coming from the U.S. and you'll know you're on track.

This is a battle of information over all else. If everyone in this country understood what was at stake/going on the problem would be solved. Right now the MSM lies and no one knows not to trust them, they used to tell the truth- the transition to lies has been slow and most never picked up on it.

[PLA]

Im a foreigner and since I cant donate, is there anyother way of supporting Ron Paul?

[BrianH]

The amounts we are talking about are so small for the average chipin that it seems like hairsplitting. If anyone wants to contribute to help an Iowa meetup win for Ron Paul then click my link below.

[kill the banks]

The amounts we are talking about are so small for the average chipin that it seems like hairsplitting. If anyone wants to contribute to help an Iowa meetup win for Ron Paul then click my link below.
Dr. Brian Horsfield
Organizer, Ron Paul MeetUp Group, Fairfield Iowa
http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul_liberty
Click to support our Chipin for promotion in first primary state!


amen , yes iowa needs some help right now ... send a few dollars their way ... good luck dr

kill the banks

[Goldwater Conservative]

Does anyone know if non-US citizens can buy pro-Paul products?

[ashevillejerry]

Accuracy is questioned I am a paralegal familiar with this area of the law. The accuracy is not in question to me at all.

I have posted one legal way that foreigners may contribute on another thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com)

[Peterjar]

Ashevillejerry claims he is a paralegal who specializes in election law, while tourchbearer claims he has run an election campaign himself and relies on the legal advise of his lawyers. Who do we believe?

Ashelvillejerry quotes some statements on the FEC website, but it is not clear what they mean. "direct" vs. "indirect" are non-obvious. The problem is that I could go through the FEC website and pull out some quotes but not being a lawyer and not understanding the various rulings as precedent I would not be able to get anything out of it. What does "indirect" mean? Is there really any precedent in the law to deal with chipins, being a relatively new phenomenon. Has there ever been a grassroots movement like our before, do the former laws even apply? Do they apply to activity in Europe or elsewhere outside the US? If we raise money in Europe and spend it i Europe does the FEC have jurisdiction?

WE NEED A INTERNATIONAL LAW and ELECTION LAW EXPERT.

The best thing to do is to get the campaign to make an official ruling on this. They can use some of the 9 million we have raised them to hire one.

Let now work on a draft of questions to send them and a pitch to settle this issue now!

[JHUK]

Does anyone know if non-US citizens can buy pro-Paul products?

You can buy his book on amazon.co.uk

[angelatc]

torchbearer, your chasing away one of the few chicks we have here, relax..

Hi Lisa, glad you could make it....;)

Hey, I don't know who is right, but she seems perfectly able to take him on. I don't see her going anywhere.

[Mark]

Foreign Nationals can donate to a church in support of their work.

Any amount.

I would imagine mainstream preachers like Pat Robertson get donations all the time from overseas.

I'm going to start some type of donation mechanism for my church,
so people from outside the country can help us help Ron Paul make a difference in this world.

People in other countries need Ron Paul as much as we do to stop this warmongering.

[Mark]

Im a foreigner and since I cant donate, is there anyother way of supporting Ron Paul?

I'm in the process of creating an official method of donating for my church.

I'm the founder of a Legally Incorporated,
Non-Profit Tax-Exempt Religious Organization in the state of North Carolina.

I have never applied for Federal 501-C3 Status,
so I'm not limited by federal rules and regulations regarding election campaigning.

I would appreciate any help from Foreign Nationals
to help me educate American Voters through my Church.

[Bakkhus]

b) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection
with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly,
make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or
expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in
connection with any Federal, State, or local election.
(c) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals to political
committees and organizations of political parties. A foreign national
shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or donation to:
(1) A political committee of a political party, including a national
party committee, a national congressional campaign committee, or a
State, district, or local party committee, including a non-Federal
account of a State, district, or local party committee, or
(2) An organization of a political party whether or not the
organization is a political committee under 11 CFR 100.5.

From what has been posted here, Torchbearer and his lawyer are absolutely correct. There is no grey area here with regard to what "indirectly" means. These rules clearly govern official campaigns and associated party activities, not grassroot independent projects.

[Mark]

Im a foreigner and since I cant donate, is there anyother way of supporting Ron Paul?
.

.
My Church, for the first time since it's Incorporation 9 years ago,
is seeking contributions of support for it's Missions.

We have decided to take this step because, as a Church,
we feel that these are critical times for not only our nation,
but also for the world as a whole.

We feel that the time of opportunity to take on this mission of change is now,
and may prove to be brief, unless we indeed take action now.

Our Church has already contributed hundreds of hours of time,
and hundreds of our scarce dollars, in our endeavors to ensure that
voters in the upcoming 2008 Presidential Election are well informed.

And we want to do so much more, and we have many ideas to explore and implement,
yet, we have emptied our treasury, and no longer have the funds necessary
to take on further projects.

So now, our Church has a choice. We can continue as we have, having a small impact,
or, for the first time in our history, ask others to help us in our service to God,
and make a large difference that is only limited by our resources.

So, we ask. Not for us as a Church alone, but for all of us, as a world.

If you are able to help us in our Missions, we pledge to utilize any assistance
donated towards our efforts, in the most efficient and beneficial manner possible.

If anyone has any questions at all, please feel free to ask,
and I'll be adding more information as it becomes available.


.
You can find information on the Incorporation of our Organization,
at the web site of The North Carolina Department of State,
in the 'Corporations' section here:

http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Corp.aspx?PitemId=4785114


Or By Search;

By Registered Agent: Cahall

http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/searchresultsagt.aspx?searchstr=Cahall&Words=STARTING


By Corporation Name: The Order Of Melchizedek

http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/searchresults.aspx?onlyactive=OFF&Words=EXACT&searchstr=The%20Order%20Of%20Melchizedek


For now, we've started a donation account at the ChipIn site.

http://toomchurch.chipin.com/please-help-our-church


If you feel so lead, please help us help the world, while we can.


Thank you,
Rev Mark Cahall
Head Priest of The Order Of Melchizedek
Raleigh, NC, USA

.

[ashevillejerry]

These rules clearly govern official campaigns and associated party activities, not grassroot independent projects.

I see nothing in the statute prohibiting foreign nationals from spending money to influence U.S. elections, 2 U.S.C. § 441e (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode02/usc_sec_02_00000441---e000-.html) that limits its scope as you state. Please cite your authorities for your conclusion.

Perhaps you are being misled by the title, which only referrs to contributions and donations. However, statutes are not limited by their titles. § 441e (a) (1) (C) also prohibits independent expenditures by foreign nationals.

You are correct that there is nothing gray about the word "indirectly." This word means pretty much the same in law as it does in conversation.

[mkpdavies]

How come Bill Clinton was allowed to go and get funds in Ireland for this wife then?


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1118/breaking17.htm


Former US President Bill Clinton met with Taoiseach Bertie Ahern last night before a private fundraising event in Dublin to support his wife's bid for presidency.

[Bakkhus]

How come Bill Clinton was allowed to go and get funds in Ireland for this wife then?


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1118/breaking17.htm

Jerry, we are waiting for your answer to this?

[mkpdavies]

I should have read it better.


Only US citizens and Green Card holders are allowed to contribute to the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign fund, which has been organised by the Irish-Americans for Hillary group.

So that's fair enough for direct campaign fund raising.


I still don't understand how you can stop foreign friends giving their American friends money. Then the American friends deciding to give a similar amount to Ron Paul.

[MDrollette]

The best way to avoid these issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

[Mark]

The best way to avoid these issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

I believe the blimp organizers have said that they CAN NOT accept ad buys from Foreign Nationals.

FNs CAN also donate to my Church, which can have an even greater impact than the blimp.

My Church Organization is seeking donations for our Electoral Educational Project.

We are not a Federally Registered 501(c)3 Organization,
so our outreach is not limited in terms promoting specific individual candidates.

We follow the example set by Presidential Candidate Rep Dr Ron Paul
in terms of honor, integrity, and fiscal responsibility ,
so you can be assured your contribution will be handled accordingly.

If you do care to support us in our project,
please follow the link at the bottom of my signature,

"Please Help Our Church".

Thank you.

[Joe3113]

You have criminals actually running the government in the US who clearly break the law and don't get in trouble. It's hard to have a revolution when you are bound by the laws that the government itself puts in place or does not respect. What revolution in history followed the law?

And what the hell can they do to Ron if I give money to some guy in the US making Ron Paul signs? Ron didn't know. I reckon internationals should donate to the chip-ins but only the ones that have absolutely no cash flow to the official campaign. I don't see how they can punish the official campaign for this...

And another thing....if Ron got elected pres, there would be a riot if the FEC tried to do anything to him.

Let this thread die now

[Mark]

You have criminals actually running the government in the US who clearly break the law and don't get in trouble. It's hard to have a revolution when you are bound by the laws that the government itself puts in place or does not respect. What revolution in history followed the law?

And what the hell can they do to Ron if I give money to some guy in the US making Ron Paul signs? Ron didn't know. I reckon internationals should donate to the chip-ins but only the ones that have absolutely no cash flow to the official campaign. I don't see how they can punish the official campaign for this...

And another thing....if Ron got elected pres, there would be a riot if the FEC tried to do anything to him.

Let this thread die now

Well, they could go after the person accepting the money in the US from a Foreign National.

Not saying they would, but they could.

Now we're "under the radar".

When this explodes,
they'll be looking and things will have to "quiet down".

I'm offering a completely legal method for Foreign Nationals to contribute to informing American voters of their choices.

The blimp is definitely illegal to contribute to for FNs.

And it's VERY "high profile".

If it takes off and gets all that attention,
they might have to return the money and/or even be charged with a crime
for accepting the money from a FN because FNs CAN NOT donate specifically to influence US voters for a specific candidate.

That's what the blimp is. A direct advertisement for a specific candidate.

I believe they've already stated that they can't accept ad buys from FNs.

My Church on the other hand, is free to accept any amount of money for our project from FNs
because the contribution is NOT for a specific candidate, it's for "educational purposes".

The blimp project and my Church's project are completely different animals.

[Peterjar]

I haven't had single donation to my chipin since this thread started. This thread hurts the campaign. It creates fear where none in needed. LET THIS THREAD DIE! Nothing is going to happen to foreigners or US citizens who give or take a little money here and there, moreover, it is not clear if it is really illegal. So chipin away!

[Mark]

I haven't had single donation to my chipin since this thread started. This thread hurts the campaign. It creates fear where none in needed. LET THIS THREAD DIE! Nothing is going to happen to foreigners or US citizens who give or take a little money here and there, moreover, it is not clear if it is really illegal. So chipin away!

One quick one while on top.

It is clear that The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA)
prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds
in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States,
either directly or indirectly.

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

My Church however, is only accepting donations

Foreign Nationals CAN contribute any amount to our Church.

Now, I'm not saying that it would be a big deal to contribute to your chipin,
but, maybe why you haven't gotten any chipins, is because no one can find it.

Where's the link? What chipin is it?

[greves]

Admin: PLEASE delete this thread. It's BS.

[Mark]

Admin: PLEASE delete this thread. It's BS.

Yeah, deleting this would be great! Only a word to the wise.

My Church can't even solicit Foreign Nationals
for "Electoral Education Projects."

We're just asking Foreign Nationals for regular donations.

Not for the "Electoral Education Project".

[Mark]

Admin: PLEASE delete this thread. It's BS.

BTW.. this is not BS, it's CYA.

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

The Prohibition

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from
contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any
federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly.

It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit,
receive or accept contributions or donations from them.

Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.
.

[Mark]

The more I read, the more I get confused.

http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.shtml

Statutes

Federal Campaign Finance Laws (http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf) [PDF]
A compilation of the laws governing the financing of federal elections, including provisions administered by other government agencies. Those provisions include:
Sections of the tax code administered by the Internal Revenue Service (http://www.irs.gov/polorgs) that govern tax-exempt 501(c) groups (http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf#page=143) and so-called 527 organizations (http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf#page=144) (additional provisions of 26 U.S.C. also apply);
Laws administered by the Federal Communications Commission (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/political/) that govern broadcast communications (http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf#page=174); and
Criminal provisions administered by the Department of Justice (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/pin.html) that relate to elections and political activity (http://www.fec.gov/law/feca/feca.pdf#page=133).Please contact the agencies listed above for additional information on the laws they administer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe it just applies to 501(c)3's.

The State can't tell a non 501(c)3 what to do,
separation of Church and State.

It seems the prohibitions are for Federally Recognized Orgs
that get tax exemptions.

There's a number to call for questions. I think I will next biz day.

This thread is WAY too confusing by now.

Delete and start anew? Everyone's "on their own"?

Whatever. It's everyones own A in the CYA. You know how that goes.

[qh4dotcom]

Here's the loophole if you're a foreigner that wants to donate...go to Ebay search for "Ron Paul" and there should be some sellers there selling Ron Paul stuff who claim that they will donate all proceeds to Ron Paul campaign...not only do you get to donate to the campaign but you get some cool merchandise in your mailbox like I have.

There are also plenty of Ron Paul websites out there selling Ron Paul stuff, not just Ebay.

[ashevillejerry]

Here's the loophole if you're a foreigner that wants to donate...go to Ebay search for "Ron Paul" and there should be some sellers there selling Ron Paul stuff who claim that they will donate all proceeds to Ron Paul campaign...not only do you get to donate to the campaign but you get some cool merchandise in your mailbox like I have.



Calling this a loophole is like calling a ski mask is a loophole to bank robbing laws. Even though you are just less likely to get caught, it's still illegal.

Foreign nationals are prohibited from contributing in any way and nationals are prohibited from acting as conduits. Here's a good link for the regs: http://www.campaignfinanceguide.org/f-forgnnatl.html.

If foreign nationals want so support a cause of freedom, check out the Republic of Lakotah (http://republicoflakotah.com/).

[qh4dotcom]

Calling this a loophole is like calling a ski mask is a loophole to bank robbing laws. Even though you are just less likely to get caught, it's still illegal.

Foreign nationals are prohibited from contributing in any way and nationals are prohibited from acting as conduits. Here's a good link for the regs: http://www.campaignfinanceguide.org/f-forgnnatl.html.

If foreign nationals want so support a cause of freedom, check out the Republic of Lakotah (http://republicoflakotah.com/).

Why is buying someone's Ron Paul stuff on Ebay illegal? Is a foreigner supposed to question a US Ebay seller every time the foreigner buys something on Ebay if the money being given to the seller will be donated to Hillary, McCain, etc.? And does that mean that these Ebay Ron Paul sellers should refuse to sell to foreigners and refund their money if by any chance a foreigner buys from them?

[Mark]

Why is buying someone's Ron Paul stuff on Ebay illegal? Is a foreigner supposed to question a US Ebay seller every time the foreigner buys something on Ebay if the money being given to the seller will be donated to Hillary, McCain, etc.? And does that mean that these Ebay Ron Paul sellers should refuse to sell to foreigners and refund their money if by any chance a foreigner buys from them?

It's not the buying of RP things, it's the part where the seller explicitly states that the money will be going to the Campaign.

It would be different if the seller said, I donated my rent money to RP, and now I need to sell this item for rent money.