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UMULAS
06-18-2012, 06:47 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

AuH20
06-18-2012, 06:53 PM
Be angry at your peers not at the American people. Americans are very tolerant and generous, but when they are being continuously shafted expect blowback. When hospitals go under and immigrants overwhelmingly vote democrat for obvious reasons, don't expect the red carpet to be rolled out for much longer.

thoughtomator
06-18-2012, 06:53 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.

UMULAS
06-18-2012, 06:58 PM
Go home? So you wanted me to be deported?

MelissaWV
06-18-2012, 07:01 PM
Go home? So you wanted me to be deported?

No, we want your address so we can go over and sit quietly in your house without being invited ;)

dannno
06-18-2012, 07:04 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.


What a horrendous post. First of all, they had a Visa, so clearly they were not breaking any laws.

Also, as for many other 'illegal immigrants', how do you know they weren't born here, or that their parents didn't bring them here? How did they break the law when their PARENTS brought them here??

As for those who "broke the law" coming here... Who are they hurting when they cross the border and make the bed in your hotel room and make your stay less expensive?

I would honestly rather have an open minded immigrant living here than a close minded anti-immigrant who feels entitled to kick other people out of 'their' land when they come in peace.

GeorgiaAvenger
06-18-2012, 07:06 PM
Los Deportes!

dannno
06-18-2012, 07:13 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men.

I smoke cannabis for medical purposes. That is against federal law. I'm not hurting anybody. Your philosophy puts me in prison.
Seriously, fuck the rule of law and fuck your philosophy.

If he isn't hurting anybody, leave him the fuck alone. He isn't taking government handouts and he's probably paying taxes. Freedom is a simple concept.

Petar
06-18-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

Don't let any self righteous asshole put you down.

The country is messed up and everyone is looking for a scapegoat.

If you are a nice and hard working person then that is all that really matters.

Kluge
06-18-2012, 07:14 PM
I'm curious about the details:

Are you a straight-up illegal immigrant?
A student who's overstayed your visa?
Businessperson who's overstayed your visa?

I'm asking because I'm incredibly curious how illegal immigrants manage to drive/work/rent an apartment, etc. I really don't have much opinion on your being here in the country, I can see both sides of the argument.

Cowlesy
06-18-2012, 07:15 PM
This thread will not end well.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Immigrant suing American taxpayers for not receiving more free medical care.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjPBtfpn8wI&feature=related

Immigrants want American taxpayers' tax rebate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eQZoXAU7X0

James Madison
06-18-2012, 07:26 PM
This thread will not end well.

Better bookmark this shit, son!:D

LibertyEagle
06-18-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm curious about the details:

Are you a straight-up illegal immigrant?
A student who's overstayed your visa?
Businessperson who's overstayed your visa?

I'm asking because I'm incredibly curious how illegal immigrants manage to drive/work/rent an apartment, etc. I really don't have much opinion on your being here in the country, I can see both sides of the argument.

Me too. More information, please, umulas.

dannno
06-18-2012, 07:28 PM
Immigrant suing American taxpayers for not receiving more free medical care.


Immigrants want American taxpayers' tax rebate.



Do you have any idea how collectivist (to the extreme) your entire post is?

LibertyEagle
06-18-2012, 07:29 PM
Do you have any idea how collectivist (to the extreme) your entire post is?

What is collectivist about it?

Kluge
06-18-2012, 07:31 PM
This thread will not end well.

Ohhhh that's for damn sure.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:32 PM
Do you have any idea how collectivist (to the extreme) your entire post is?


I know, I blame the US government and the people who perpetuate the systematic theft of the productive people, giving lot of honest foreign immigrant workers a really bad name.

dannno
06-18-2012, 07:35 PM
What is collectivist about it?

Well what was the point of their post? There are only two conclusions I can draw.

They are either insinuating that

A) Immigrants are greedy and want nothing but government services while non-immigrants aren't greedy and rarely try and get anything from the government.

B) Or some how, because OUR system is fucked up enough to give special privileges to some immigrants, that all immigrants must be punished whether they get special privileges or not.

dannno
06-18-2012, 07:37 PM
I know, I blame the US government and the people who perpetuate the systematic theft of the productive people, giving lot of honest foreign immigrant workers a really name.

Ya, you didn't specify that in your post, but through your post it seemed that you were the one attempting to give all immigrant workers a really bad name.

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2012, 07:38 PM
I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country,...

I thought for a second that you were going to say that you wanted to "bring back" the movement to the country that came from. Apply through the legal channels to come back here, but trying to change the country you came from is also a great cause.

CaptainAmerica
06-18-2012, 07:39 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that? I don't think its a bad thing to allow political asylum or deferment for people with visas and for kids who have no idea they were even born in a land without becoming citizens. There are people out there who may find out in their teens to early 20s that they arent even citizens legally for whatever reasons. This country has turned to beating a scapegoat for every issue surrounding the economy and war on drugs. Automatically people think of "mexicans" for instance if the word illegal immigrant is even mentioned. The war on drugs escalated in the 90s and as a result northern Mexico became a battle zone and yes you have some people fleeing the region who would like to get citizenship or political asylum just to have safety. I am completely against social welfare, and I am for upholding civil law but I have seen the amount of damage that can be done to innocent law abiding families when immigration laws are taken to the extreme. I know a family that was split apart because the husband was an immigrant who married an american citizen but he had no visa or anything but his foreign id, and they were a very good family with kids being raised here for 4 years until the ICE crackdowns began and he got deported into a country he wasn't even from! he was dumped there with nothing but the shirt on his back and in a very dangerous environment.I do not believe it is right to scapegoat illegal immigrants for the bad economy, and it is not right to scapegoat them for the escalating "war on drugs". Americans need to start taking responsibility for the stuff that americans have permitted to take place for decades..first we need to end the war on drugs, and then we need to stop our government from extorting impoverished people for thousands upon thousands of dollars just for applications to have the ability to escape their war torn lands . End the welfare system and it wouldnt be a problem. We could then reduce the amount of illegal immigration going on right now.

end :
welfare state
warfare state
war on drugs


There is no black and white solution, it will take decades to reverse the bad stuff happening.

I know another person from church who said he was from an african country (cant remember which one) and that he was here on a visa since before 9/11 and has been trying to apply for citizenship for over 10 years and the government changes the rules/regulations and forces him to file every year and pay thousands of dollars just to apply for citizenship. This kind of stuff is extortion .9/11 really did increase the amount of danger people are placed under because our government is so stupid that it now treats all foreigners as enemies whether they have a visa /passport or not.


Obama should be impeached for this abuse of power ,and many others though.

UMULAS
06-18-2012, 07:39 PM
Me too. More information, please, umulas.

Sure thing, I'll edit it aswell.

Well how many immigrants like myself keep allowing to be stayed here is because of my Visa, which in general had to have kept renewed, the problem was that I couldn't get it renewed, meaning that I was going to be deported (I'm a minor for everyone to know). Though Courts and the police (yes they don't deport you ASAP) said that I was going to have my case to be looked on, I was expected a few more months and I was going to be back to Argentina. I was still able to go to school just like any other normal person.

For other illegals questions:

Illegals do drive but without a licence, so it's pretty scary that you can get stopped by an officer, realizes that you have nothing, and you will be put to jail (this happened to a friend of mine).

Illegals also work under the table, meaning that we get paid in hard cash, not because we don't want to pay our taxes, because their is nothing else for us to do. I mean workers permit, WTF. My Dad was able to work for setting up his "own" company which is legal and my mom had to work under the table.

Renting an apartment is also easy as well, we just pay normally and nothing else, don't know any specific questions about the one your asking.

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2012, 07:40 PM
No, we want your address so we can go over and sit quietly in your house without being invited ;)

I call dibs on the stereo. I will try to keep the volume reasonable on school nights.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:43 PM
Well what was the point of their post? There are only two conclusions I can draw.

They are either insinuating that

A) Immigrants are greedy and want nothing but government services while non-immigrants aren't greedy and rarely try and get anything from the government.

B) Or some how, because OUR system is fucked up enough to give special privileges to some immigrants, that all immigrants must be punished whether they get special privileges or not.

A) The logical conclusion, in my opinion was, SOME immigrants will take advantage of the system.

B) Given enough incentive, the poors will exploit the productive.

C) Politicians in power want to remain in power by destroying the market of the native population.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:45 PM
Ya, you didn't specify that in your post, but through your post it seemed that you were the one attempting to give all immigrant workers a really bad name.

Attacking a certain issue is not equal as attacking a group. I am pointing out the problems. No need to get politically correct police on me.

Meatwasp
06-18-2012, 07:48 PM
Sure thing, I'll edit it aswell.

Well how many immigrants like myself keep allowing to be stayed here is because of my Visa, which in general had to have kept renewed, the problem was that I couldn't get it renewed, meaning that I was going to be deported (I'm a minor for everyone to know). Though Courts and the police (yes they don't deport you ASAP) said that I was going to have my case to be looked on, I was expected a few more months and I was going to be back to Argentina. I was still able to go to school just like any other normal person.

For other illegals questions:

Illegals do drive but without a licence, so it's pretty scary that you can get stopped by an officer, realizes that you have nothing, and you will be put to jail (this happened to a friend of mine).

Illegals also work under the table, meaning that we get paid in hard cash, not because we don't want to pay our taxes, because their is nothing else for us to do. I mean workers permit, WTF. My Dad was able to work for setting up his "own" company which is legal and my mom had to work under the table.

Renting an apartment is also easy as well, we just pay normally and nothing else, don't know any specific questions about the one your asking.

Go study and get your American Citizenship papers. Both my parents did.

CaptainAmerica
06-18-2012, 07:50 PM
A) The logical conclusion, in my opinion was, SOME immigrants will take advantage of the system.

B) Given enough incentive, the poors will exploit the productive.

C) Politicians in power want to remain in power by destroying the market of the native population. the "native" population already exploits the welfare system every day when they get tax credits. Its one big socialist system in which everyone takes what isnt theirs including loans from banks that were subsidized. The problem here is that Obama abused his power to give a deferment (NOT citizenship).Illegal immigrants arent a valid scapegoat when it comes to american's and the economic blunders happening in the past 10 years.

Philosophy_of_Politics
06-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Nobody would truly care about immigration, if we had a prosperous economy, and non-intrusive government.

The issue isn't immigration, the issue is the economy.

ProIndividual
06-18-2012, 07:50 PM
I'm glad you can stay...invite more of your friends to come here. Screw tyrannical laws, it's patriotic to break them. The economics, ethics, individual natural rights (which have no relation to borders or laws of the state), and philosophy of liberty are on our side, my friend. I was born here...but that's a damn accident of birth; a winning ticket to the birth lottery. I support above all individual natural rights...and one of those rights is free movement without restriction by the state, and only restricted by the market. Any other restrictions besides the market are tyranny.

Don't let the xenophobes, economic uninformed, and culture warriors get to you. You have the RIGHT to be here as much as I do.

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 07:52 PM
A) The logical conclusion, in my opinion was, SOME immigrants will take advantage of the system.

B) Given enough incentive, the poors will exploit the productive.

C) Politicians in power want to remain in power by destroying the market of the native population.

A, B, C, Create government power and watch the psycopaths, sociopaths take it over. There is no avoiding this issue. People want to blame immigrants for taking welfare. Just like most poor people and many corporations. Scrap it all, seriously - don't let these bastards divide and conquer us.

Marenco
06-18-2012, 07:52 PM
This thread will not end well.

http://drewminh.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif

PaulConventionWV
06-18-2012, 07:54 PM
I smoke cannabis for medical purposes. That is against federal law. I'm not hurting anybody. Your philosophy puts me in prison.
Seriously, fuck the rule of law and fuck your philosophy.

If he isn't hurting anybody, leave him the fuck alone. He isn't taking government handouts and he's probably paying taxes. Freedom is a simple concept.

Fuck the rule of law? Do you know what the rule of law is? It's more than just 'authority' and it is what spawned the Constitution. If freedom is a simple concept, so is the rule of law. It has nothing to do with federal law. It means the government can't do anything the people can't do. Are you sure you don't want that? I would learn a little more about it before making bold claims.

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 07:54 PM
Government contractors are the real parasites of welfare, but you hardly hear about them being criticize. I'm all for completely open borders. When goods stop going across borders armies will.

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 07:55 PM
Fuck the rule of law? Do you know what the rule of law is? It's more than just 'authority' and it is what spawned the Constitution. If freedom is a simple concept, so is the rule of law. It has nothing to do with federal law. It means the government can't do anything the people can't do. Are you sure you don't want that? I would learn a little more about it before making bold claims.

Moral Relativism + paper = the constitution, subject to change with the will of the people. Followed by none.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:56 PM
the "native" population already exploits the welfare system every day when they get tax credits. Its one big socialist system in which everyone takes what isnt theirs including loans from banks that were subsidized. The problem here is that Obama abused his power to give a deferment (NOT citizenship).Illegal immigrants arent a valid scapegoat when it comes to american's and the economic blunders happening in the past 10 years.

Strawman comeback dude. The federal reserve and the politically connected will rubber stamp their own projects, granting themselves more power over the people. YES, that happens. But the issue here is, since you have a system in place for a mass of people that you call Americans, how do you prevent other dishonest non Americans to steal from the Americans.

flynn
06-18-2012, 07:57 PM
A, B, C, Create government power and watch the psycopaths, sociopaths take it over. There is no avoiding this issue. People want to blame immigrants for taking welfare. Just like most poor people and many corporations. Scrap it all, seriously - don't let these bastards divide and conquer us.

100% agree.

UMULAS
06-18-2012, 07:57 PM
A) The logical conclusion, in my opinion was, SOME immigrants will take advantage of the system.

You mean the 0.00000001% right, wait I even thought that number! You can argue that we can't pay taxes, but asking for others such as the right work, free health care (or state care) we can't get that.

B) Given enough incentive, the poors will exploit the productive.

I've never had the chance to find this "exploit", please tell me more.

C) Politicians in power want to remain in power by destroying the market of the native population.

Politicans in power want to REMAIN IN POWER by making sure some lazy Americans who don't want those cheap labor jobs to deport immigrants to make them feel better. Also, Obama and the Democrats did this EO by making more votes from immigrants.

MeatWasp: I can't, it's not easy any more after 9/11, I've been waiting about 13 years for my residence (still waiting!).

With this new EO, I'm allowed to stay here and 2 years later I can become a resident.

RonRules
06-18-2012, 07:59 PM
Make sure you vote for Ron Paul before you leave.

That's all.

nobody's_hero
06-18-2012, 07:59 PM
I find consolation in the fact that this whole system is going to collapse and we'll all have a chance to start over with absolutely nothing.

Welcome to America. :(

(although, as I mentioned in another post, I disagree with Obama's one-heavy-hand method of bringing this about. I wouldn't get too excited since all it would take is another president with a simple, broad reaching executive order to overturn this one. Congress is practically irrelevant. It's all about the executive power now. I didn't think we were supposed to have kings in this country).

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2012, 08:00 PM
...Though Courts and the police (yes they don't deport you ASAP) said that I was going to have my case to be looked on, I was expected a few more months and I was going to be back to Argentina...

And here I thought that Argentina was the Ancap/sovereign citizen paradise...

http://www.dollarvigilante.com/galtsgulch


This is occurring in Cafayate. It is a place where libertarian/anarcho-capitalist/austrian-economics adherents are gravitating. The kind of people who have no interest in nor use for government. The kind of people who are moving here are almost all successful entrepreneurs, writers, scientists and other productive freedom-loving people. It, quite possibly, is the world's first libertarian enclave!

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 08:01 PM
Finally an issue more heated than Rand's bullshit. The movement is still alive and well I see. Rand tried to take us back to the outhouse.

flynn
06-18-2012, 08:02 PM
Politicans in power want to REMAIN IN POWER by making sure some lazy Americans who don't want those cheap labor jobs to deport immigrants to make them feel better. Also, Obama and the Democrats did this EO by making more votes from immigrants.

MeatWasp: I can't, it's not easy any more after 9/11, I've been waiting about 13 years for my residence (still waiting!).

With this new EO, I'm allowed to stay here and 2 years later I can become a resident.

:FACEPALMS:

Just so you know, there is no such thing as free lunch.

ProIndividual
06-18-2012, 08:04 PM
Strawman comeback dude. The federal reserve and the politically connected will rubber stamp their own projects, granting themselves more power over the people. YES, that happens. But the issue here is, since you have a system in place for a mass of people that you call Americans, how do you prevent other dishonest non Americans to steal from the Americans.

It's a bad argument...we know for a fact because of economic studies that immigrants add more to the economy than the take out (in social services, schools, healthcare, tax evasion, etc, combined). The "can't have open borders in a welfare state" defense has been disproven with data for decades.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?381015-Immigration-Policy-Poll-Law-to-Prevent-Immigrants-from-Getting-Benefits-for-X-Years&p=4499679#post4499679

Everyone should go to the link above, read the long post I left with links to information, read that information, and then vote in the poll on immigration. The long post is on page one, you can't miss it. Just read it. The time it takes to read it and change your mind is inconsequential. Changing your mind due to facts is invaluable.

CaptainAmerica
06-18-2012, 08:05 PM
Strawman comeback dude. The federal reserve and the politically connected will rubber stamp their own projects, granting themselves more power over the people. YES, that happens. But the issue here is, since you have a system in place for a mass of people that you call Americans, how do you prevent other dishonest non Americans to steal from the Americans. I have no idea what you are trying to say . I did state in early posts to first end the welfare state.

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 08:06 PM
I have no idea what you are trying to say . I did state in early posts to first end the welfare state.

So end the entire government ? I agree.

LibertyEagle
06-18-2012, 08:06 PM
I find consolation in the fact that this whole system is going to collapse and we'll all have a chance to start over with absolutely nothing.

Welcome to America. :(

(although, as I mentioned in another post, I disagree with Obama's one-heavy-hand method of bringing this about. I wouldn't get too excited since all it would take is another president with a simple, broad reaching executive order to overturn this one. Congress is practically irrelevant. It's all about the executive power now. I didn't think we were supposed to have kings in this country).

Iit would be one thing if that was the way it would happen, but I seriously doubt it will be. They will finish rolling us into world government. There will be no 'start over' from scratch thing. So, people had better do everything they can right now to fight this stuff, because there is not going to be any phoenix rising from the ashes opportunity down the road.

CaptainAmerica
06-18-2012, 08:07 PM
So end the entire government ? I agree. Reign it in to being limited government as in very very small, decentralized and demilitarized.

thoughtomator
06-18-2012, 08:07 PM
It's a bad argument...we know for a fact because of economic studies that immigrants add more to the economy than the take out (in social services, schools, healthcare, tax evasion, etc, combined). The "can't have open borders in a welfare state" defense has been disproven with data for decades.

Really? Let's see the source of this "fact". I'm willing to lay money that it's a minefield of broken window fallacies.

truelies
06-18-2012, 08:08 PM
.........................I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! ..............................

But you can't be bothered to obey the Law. Get lost you are neither needed nor wanted here.

nobody's_hero
06-18-2012, 08:09 PM
Iit would be one thing if that was the way it would happen, but I seriously doubt it will be. They will finish rolling us into world government. There will be no 'start over' from scratch thing.

Damn, just when I was getting my hopes up about everyone being reduced to the same level of poverty and no longer having anything worth being taken and redistributed, you had to go and remind me of the people who want to rule the world.

UMULAS
06-18-2012, 08:09 PM
And here I thought that Argentina was the Ancap/sovereign citizen paradise...

http://www.dollarvigilante.com/galtsgulch

Sorry man, history shows that the Anarchy revolution in Argentina ended a long time ago. Now they have Peronism though and other Socialist parties.

flynn
06-18-2012, 08:10 PM
It's a bad argument...we know for a fact because of economic studies that immigrants add more to the economy than the take out (in social services, schools, healthcare, tax evasion, etc, combined). The "can't have open borders in a welfare state" defense has been disproven with data for decades.

That is correct. I would argue the case for stronger property rights within the constitution before I'd advocate open borders since you literally have people voting to make certain areas more socialistic than others, thus the outcome of that are always detrimental to Americans when there are more immigrant children value to vote for a different set economics policies.

LibertyEagle
06-18-2012, 08:12 PM
Damn, just when I was getting my hopes up about everyone being reduced to the same level of poverty and no longer having anything worth being taken and redistributed, you had to go and remind me of the people who want to rule the world.

Ha ha. Yeah, it's pretty dismal all the way around, isn't it?

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2012, 08:16 PM
Sorry man, history shows that the Anarchy revolution in Argentina ended a long time ago. Now they have Peronism though and other Socialist parties.

Better not tell all the Ancaps that are heading there... ;)

Brian4Liberty
06-18-2012, 08:20 PM
Really? Let's see the source of this "fact". I'm willing to lay money that it's a minefield of broken window fallacies.

You want facts in a soft "science"? Lol. Not gonna happen. "Supply and demand" even has exceptions and caveats.

talkingpointes
06-18-2012, 08:24 PM
Better not tell all the Ancaps that are heading there... ;)

Yeah, just keep handfeeding the statist. Government is all they could intellectually handle right now. Who would pick cotton if it were not for slaves ?

dannno
06-19-2012, 10:31 AM
I know another person from church who said he was from an african country (cant remember which one) and that he was here on a visa since before 9/11 and has been trying to apply for citizenship for over 10 years and the government changes the rules/regulations and forces him to file every year and pay thousands of dollars just to apply for citizenship. This kind of stuff is extortion .


Wow, that is insane!

Anybody who thinks that immigrants should go through "the system" obviously isn't making the connection between that and our government.

dannno
06-19-2012, 10:34 AM
Go study and get your American Citizenship papers. Both my parents did.

Before or after 9/11?

dannno
06-19-2012, 10:37 AM
Fuck the rule of law? Do you know what the rule of law is? It's more than just 'authority' and it is what spawned the Constitution. If freedom is a simple concept, so is the rule of law. It has nothing to do with federal law. It means the government can't do anything the people can't do. Are you sure you don't want that? I would learn a little more about it before making bold claims.

Not true.


Rule of law implies that every citizen is subject to the law. It stands in contrast to the idea that the ruler is above the law, for example by divine right.

-wiki

You can have tyrannical rule of law.

torchbearer
06-19-2012, 11:22 AM
No, we want your address so we can go over and sit quietly in your house without being invited ;)

well, to be fair the analogy is dishonest. a country isn't an individual and doesn't have property rights.
i doubt the OP has made himself home at someone elses property without invite.

If someone wants to live here, why shouldn't they? rent a place, buy some property, sign up as an indentured servant, whatever. But its not the government privilege to envade in any work contracts made.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 11:25 AM
Are you actually an immigrant or are you just trolling to make people rage?

Yieu
06-19-2012, 11:34 AM
Don't let anyone get you down, you are still just as human as anyone else, a proponent of liberty, and there is plenty of unused space.

Kluge
06-19-2012, 11:42 AM
Are you actually an immigrant or are you just trolling to make people rage?

Read his posts, it's pretty obvious that he's ESL.

No offense to the OP, I only speak English and mess that up sometimes.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 11:43 AM
No, we want your address so we can go over and sit quietly in your house without being invited

YEAH! WHO invited you onto OUR turf, boyee? As an American (ie: not you), I feel entitled to control everything "we" have here in "our" turf. Oh that's cute you got a job and a place to live? Too bad you "forgot" this was my gang's territory, homie. HA, like you couldn't see our colors flyin' around everywhere? We don't give a f*&^ about your ass, G, (at least not until you're initiated after pledging your loyalty to the collective. Until then, you're just some scrub that needs to GTFO of our hood.)

\\
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XI_cHscGGzw/SxaaPLSpe_I/AAAAAAAAAH8/0cZWLpQXUZY/s400/crips+posing.jpg


But you can't be bothered to obey the Law. Get lost you are neither needed nor wanted here.

Actually he had a VISA, so apparently someone thought he was "needed" and I'd prefer him to live where he wants.

But yeah... if you can't be bothered to obey fugitive slave laws, then GTFO OF AMERICA, AM I RIGHT???


I'm glad you can stay...invite more of your friends to come here. Screw tyrannical laws, it's patriotic to break them. The economics, ethics, individual natural rights (which have no relation to borders or laws of the state), and philosophy of liberty are on our side, my friend. I was born here...but that's a damn accident of birth; a winning ticket to the birth lottery. I support above all individual natural rights...and one of those rights is free movement without restriction by the state, and only restricted by the market. Any other restrictions besides the market are tyranny.

Don't let the xenophobes, economic uninformed, and culture warriors get to you. You have the RIGHT to be here as much as I do.

+1




Make sure you vote for Ron Paul before you leave.

That's all.

SERIOUSLY?

Many of the posts in this thread are absolutely disturbing.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 11:44 AM
well, to be fair the analogy is dishonest. a country isn't an individual and doesn't have property rights.
i doubt the OP has made himself home at someone elses property without invite.

If someone wants to live here, why shouldn't they? rent a place, buy some property, sign up as an indentured servant, whatever. But its not the government privilege to envade in any work contracts made.

DING DING DING.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 11:46 AM
My uncle Raphael (by marriage to my aunt) is actually an immigrant from Mexico (he was an illegal immigrant at one point working construction during the day and at a store during the night) but recently he became a citizen. You wouldn't believe the amount of bullshit that is required to become a legal citizen.

realtonygoodwin
06-19-2012, 11:55 AM
I can't support this law breaking.

The answer isn't to ignore the laws, it is to change them.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 11:59 AM
I can't support this law breaking.

The answer isn't to ignore the laws, it is to change them.

Of course the answer is ultimately to have the government to stop enforcing bad laws.

But, given the choice, would you deport fugitive slaves back to their owners, or would you support the slaves struggling for their right to human liberty?



When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law. These two evils are of equal consequence, and it would be difficult for a person to choose between them.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 12:04 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

If you are in the business of pimping whores (in the contracting business), the more whores that can be brought across the border and worked for even less amount of money will benefit your business. It is a cycle of abuse. As former illegals gain their citizenship, they then turn around to pimp illegals. Look, pimping and whoring is a necessary tyranny beneficial for the disadvantaged people living in a Democratic Republic of individual nation states (there are fifty of them with some territories). *But pimping and whoring should be regulated even to the extent that it is put totally out of business anytime the whoremongering warmongering in Washington DC gets out of hand.

*The prior sentence may be republished at any time for the price of a bent nickel.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 12:11 PM
If you are in the business of pimping whores (in the contracting business), the more whores that can be brought across the border and worked for even less amount of money will benefit your business. It is a cycle of abuse. As former illegals gain their citizenship, they then turn around to pimp illegals. Look, pimping and whoring is a necessary tyranny beneficial for the disadvantaged people living in a Democratic Republic of individual nation states (there are fifty of them with some territories). *But pimping and whoring should be regulated even to the extent that it is put totally out of business anytime the whoremongering warmongering in Washington DC gets out of hand.

*The prior sentence may be republished at any time for the price of a bent nickel.

Are you on meth? I can only assume you are and that your amphetamine psychosis is the reason you think any of that made sense.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 12:17 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.

According to the natural law declared by our Founding Fathers, our Civil Purpose in The Declaration of Independence has sovereignity over every tradition of legal precedence established in the past and every legislated one yet to be established in the future. This includes every rule of law.

dannno
06-19-2012, 12:20 PM
I can't support this law breaking.

The answer isn't to ignore the laws, it is to change them.

So you think I should be in prison for growing and consuming a plant?

Or that me and millions of others should ditch their medicine and lose hundreds of medicinal phenotypes bread for specific conditions?

Fuck that shit.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 12:21 PM
Are you on meth? I can only assume you are and that your amphetamine psychosis is the reason you think any of that made sense.

I forgot to include the word "an"

If you are in the business of pimping whores (in the contracting business), the more whores that can be brought across the border and worked for an even less amount of money will benefit your business. It is a cycle of abuse. As former illegals gain their citizenship, they then turn around to pimp illegals. Look, pimping and whoring is a necessary tyranny beneficial for the disadvantaged people living in a Democratic Republic of individual nation states (there are fifty of them with some territories). *But pimping and whoring should be regulated even to the extent that it is put totally out of business anytime the whoremongering warmongering in Washington DC gets out of hand.

*The prior sentence may be republished at any time for the price of a bent nickel.

thoughtomator
06-19-2012, 12:24 PM
So you think I should be in prison for growing and consuming a plant?

Or that me and millions of others should ditch their medicine and lose hundreds of medicinal phenotypes bread for specific conditions?

Fuck that shit.

Regulation of immigration is built in to the Constitution (and for good reason). It is not just law, it is lawful.

In contrast, prohibition/Drug War BS is law but not lawful as it exceeds the authority granted to the government by the Constitution.

The former is consistent with the Rule of Law, the latter is not.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 12:25 PM
I forgot to include the word "an"

If you are in the business of pimping whores (in the contracting business), the more whores that can be brought across the border and worked for an even less amount of money will benefit your business. It is a cycle of abuse. As former illegals gain their citizenship, they then turn around to pimp illegals. Look, pimping and whoring is a necessary tyranny beneficial for the disadvantaged people living in a Democratic Republic of individual nation states (there are fifty of them with some territories). *But pimping and whoring should be regulated even to the extent that it is put totally out of business anytime the whoremongering warmongering in Washington DC gets out of hand.

*The prior sentence may be republished at any time for the price of a bent nickel.

Yeah....

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 12:34 PM
Regulation of immigration is built in to the Constitution (and for good reason). It is not just law, it is lawful.

In contrast, prohibition/Drug War BS is law but not lawful as it exceeds the authority granted to the government by the Constitution.

The former is consistent with the Rule of Law, the latter is not.

Prohibition was amended to the constitution to be "lawful" but it was still anti-liberty, and anti-property, protectionist violence just as "Regulation of illegal immigration" is and drove the market underground causing far more problems than it solved. Of course more Americans care about their right to consume alcohol the more socially acceptable drug than their fellow human's rights to liberty, so we know how that ended.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 12:38 PM
The constitution is not divine. Prohibition was amended to the constitution to be "lawful" but it was still anti-liberty, and anti-property, protectionist bullshit just as "Regulation of illegal immigration" is. Of course more Americans care about their right to drink beer than other human's rights to liberty.

A natural right is different from a civil right. Human rights just confuses matters even more. Human rights deals with the rights selfish people have until they die. Natural Rights reduce down on the physical level like DnA and include our nation's posterity as such rights are forever.

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-19-2012, 12:40 PM
Be angry at your peers not at the American people. Americans are very tolerant and generous, but when they are being continuously shafted expect blowback. When hospitals go under and immigrants overwhelmingly vote democrat for obvious reasons, don't expect the red carpet to be rolled out for much longer.Immigrants aren't the problem, government is the problem. The laws give immigrants all that stuff for free.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 12:42 PM
A natural right is different from a civil right. Human rights just confuses matters even more. Human rights deals with the rights selfish people have until they die. Natural Rights reduce down on the physical level like DnA and include our nation's posterity as such rights are forever.

Well sometimes radioactive banana bread in a fanny pack, too.

Zippyjuan
06-19-2012, 12:45 PM
Immigrants aren't the problem, government is the problem. The laws give immigrants all that stuff for free.

It is the states which are giving things for free. On the Federal Government level, illegal immigrants are not elgible for things like Social Security or Medicare or voting. If they are getting welfare or education or medical care or drivers licenses, those are being provided by the states. Is it the right of a state do decide to offer these things or not? Contact your state legislators if you would like to change these.

Most are here for opportunities- not freebies anyways.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 12:47 PM
Immigrants aren't the problem, government is the problem. The laws give immigrants all that stuff for free.

Who do you think lobbies for these benefits? Who do you think wrote significant parts of McCain's failed amnesty bill? Almost all of the immigrant advocacy groups have direct ties to the Mexican government as well.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 12:49 PM
Who do you think lobbies for these benefits? Who do you think wrote significant parts of McCain's failed amnesty bill?

I dunno, was it UMULAS?

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 01:06 PM
Well sometimes radioactive banana bread in a fanny pack, too.

If a natural right was the same thing as a civil right and a human right, then they would both be called a natural right. Our Founding Fathers argued this point. I need to post a thread on this matter. You see, it is a matter of what is true power. Is power foundational or is it a matter of manipulation?
As a natural right stands as foundational, a civil right depends of the legal system which has been deceived into believing true power is derived by way of manipulation.
So, the ultimate war is between the foundational (concrete) power of the Truth versus the (dynamic) false powers of manipulation.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 01:34 PM
If a natural right was the same thing as a civil right and a human right, then they would both be called a natural right. Our Founding Fathers argued this point. I need to post a thread on this matter. You see, it is a matter of what is true power. Is power foundational or is it a matter of manipulation?
As a natural right stands as foundational, a civil right depends of the legal system which has been deceived into believing true power is derived by way of manipulation.
So, the ultimate war is between the foundational (concrete) power of the Truth versus the (dynamic) false powers of manipulation.

You should write a book or as I assume you would call it a manifesto.

realtonygoodwin
06-19-2012, 01:39 PM
So you think I should be in prison for growing and consuming a plant?

Or that me and millions of others should ditch their medicine and lose hundreds of medicinal phenotypes bread for specific conditions?

Fuck that shit.

Is it illegal in your state? Then yes. Either change the law, or change where you live, or go to jail (or get fined, or whatever the legal consequence is).

On a Federal level, as mentioned, national security is the jurisdiction of the Federal government. The Federal Government's responsibility is to protect the states from outside threats.

John F Kennedy III
06-19-2012, 01:41 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.

Thank you.

angelatc
06-19-2012, 01:43 PM
..... I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

I hope the Republicans win and deport your illegal ass. (That oughta get me about 100 neg reps.)

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 01:54 PM
Liberty and justice for all, eh guys.

And some people wonder how the "land of the free" got to this point, when even so many RP supporters would prefer to act like a violent gang than supporters of individual liberty. :rolleyes:

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 02:02 PM
Is it illegal in your state? Then yes. Either change the law, or change where you live, or go to jail (or get fined, or whatever the legal consequence is).

Is harboring Jews illegal in your state? Then yes, of course you deserve to be shot for treason!


On a Federal level, as mentioned, national security is the jurisdiction of the Federal government. The Federal Government's responsibility is to protect the states from outside threats.

Outside threats like the RP supporter who started this thread? Thank god the Federal Government is there to keep everyone Secure and Protected by preventing him and his ilk from peacefully living here. Of course he's not really a threat anymore after he takes the Loyalty Pledge and becomes a bona-fide member of our gan... er... I mean, one of "us", a US citizen.

erowe1
06-19-2012, 02:02 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

+rep

I'm glad you're here. Ignore the negative posts.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 02:03 PM
I'm just gonna repost this, as it sheds some light on the rediculousness of the debate, all around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

angelatc
06-19-2012, 02:03 PM
Liberty and justice for all, eh guys.

And some people wonder how the "land of the free" got to this point, when even so many RP supporters would prefer to act like a violent gang than supporters of individual liberty. :rolleyes:

Can't have a country without borders.

This is just an cheap election play - Obama adding millions of permanent residents to the voting rolls, and they're class of residents who take more out of the system than they put in. If they hate us because we don't want them here, then let them go home. I'll happily take the rise in wages a worker shortage would create.

IDefendThePlatform
06-19-2012, 02:06 PM
I can't support this law breaking.

The answer isn't to ignore the laws, it is to change them.

So your position is that Rosa Parks should've just walked her ass to the back of the bus? Then maybe crafted a well-written letter to her congressperson?


I also agree with noneedtoaggress's fugitive slave analogy, which I haven't seen you address yet.

realtonygoodwin
06-19-2012, 02:12 PM
I haven't addressed it because it is ridiculous.

The Federal government is supposed to protect your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or private property).
Slaves did not have enjoy liberty within their own country, the responsibility of the Federal government was to ensure their liberty within this country was not impeded.
It is not designed to protect those rights of people outside our country.

erowe1
06-19-2012, 02:13 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.

You don't know what you're talking about. You say we're not supposed to respect the rule of men, but then that's exactly what you demand the OP do, respect a rule made up by a bunch of men, who have no right to make up such a rule, about where they're allowed to live.

The essence of patriotism is standing up against whatever regime subjugates you and your countrymen. Part of that involves breaking that regime's unjust laws.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 02:17 PM
Can't have a country without borders.

This is just an cheap election play - Obama adding millions of permanent residents to the voting rolls, and they're class of residents who take more out of the system than they put in. If they hate us because we don't want them here, then let them go home. I'll happily take the rise in wages a worker shortage would create.

Um, yeah, the borders are borders of people's rightful property.

When you're using the word "country" in that context, all you're saying is a region of land arbitrarily claimed to be under your control by government violence. All you said is "I can't have my gang turf without borders showing what region I control."

'Well I'm a Legal American Citizen™ and I didn't invite you into the enormous region I claim the right to control, which as a Legal American Citizen™ I own, so I'm gonna use the government to kick you out.'

'Well I'm a Crip Member and I didn't invite you into the 'hood I claim the right to control, which as a Crip Member I own, so I'm gonna use my homeboys to kick you out (with force).'

Go individual liberty!!

If someone buys a house you have no right to tell them someone cannot live there because they were born outside of your "gang turf". You have no right to tell someone that they can't peacefully work for someone who voluntarily will pay them for their labor.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 02:39 PM
I haven't addressed it because it is ridiculous.

The Federal government is supposed to protect your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or private property).
Slaves did not have enjoy liberty within their own country, the responsibility of the Federal government was to ensure their liberty within this country was not impeded.
It is not designed to protect those rights of people outside our country.

Yeah and instead of protecting people's right to life, liberty, and property, it's used it as a tool to violate American citizens right to liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness as well as the rights of non-citizens at the behest of Nationalist Protectionist types who arbitrarily consider the whole of "America" their own turf and lobby the government to use force against "the illegals" and those traitors who would dare harbor and work with them.

tttppp
06-19-2012, 02:42 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

Because most people are stupid. Americans always want to talk about how they are the best, but the second an immigrant comes here they are afraid of the competition. Well if Americans really were the best, they shouldn't have to worry about the competition.

Most Americans are communists at heart. They expect to be given jobs and they don't want to work for it.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 02:49 PM
Most Americans are communists at heart.

Comrade, show me your papers or GTFO of "our" communal land with that nonsense.

tttppp
06-19-2012, 02:52 PM
Comrade, show me your papers or GTFO of "our" communal land with that nonsense.

Who do you think voted for Obama? They certainly were not supporters of free markets.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 02:55 PM
It was all the illegals, of course. They're destroying America, "land of the free".

I say kick em all out and throw the bums who hire them to rot in prison, and if that doesn't work gas them en masse and shoot the people who harbor these somewhat subhuman criminal fugitives within their own private property, because they don't deserve to live in my FREE America when they're out DESTROYING all the INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.

We can start with the OP.

Barrex
06-19-2012, 03:07 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/3204a260-9dcf-f984.jpg

(Greetings from Croatia... I just couldnt resist)

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 03:14 PM
You should write a book or as I assume you would call it a manifesto.

Okay, let me explain this logically. The U.S. Congress can convene at any time to alter the Constitution to abolish the Supreme Court. This means, in regards to the traditions of legal precedence, the U.S. Congress is the Supreme Court. So, in order for the Supreme Court to be sovereign over the U.S. Congress, it should deal only in the matters concerning the Civil Purpose of the disadvantaged people. Once again, as the U.S. Congress is the supreme court regarding every tradition of legal precedence, the Supreme Court's greater power originates in its focussing on matters concerning the people's Civil Purpose.
As I said, there is no such thing as committing treason and treachery in contempt of the law; but, there is such a thing as passing a law which commits treason and treachery in contempt of the disadvantaged people's Civil Purpose.

P > D (The P, the powerful, are greater than the D, the disadvantaged)
P[L] > D[L] (The powerful with [L]awyers are greater than the disadvantaged with lawyers.
Therefore, the equasion should be reduced in terms by eliminating all lawyers.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm just gonna repost this, as it sheds some light on the rediculousness of the debate, all around.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

While this is cute, I can remember back in one of my psycho babble courses how children enjoy cartoons because they function on the same immature level as their brains. We've become a nation of animation, computer generated special effects included.

erowe1
06-19-2012, 04:22 PM
It was all the illegals, of course. They're destroying America, "land of the free".

I say kick em all out and throw the bums who hire them to rot in prison, and if that doesn't work gas them en masse and shoot the people who harbor these somewhat subhuman criminal fugitives within their own private property, because they don't deserve to live in my FREE America when they're out DESTROYING all the INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.

We can start with the OP.

Sorry if I'm slow, but this is satire. Right?

Never mind. After reading it again, I get it.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 04:24 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/3204a260-9dcf-f984.jpg

(Greetings from Croatia... I just couldnt resist)

The demise of the native americans is proof positive why illegal immigration does not work. It's essentially a death warrant at the long end of the curve.

BuddyRey
06-19-2012, 04:31 PM
As long as you're a peaceful person and don't plan on making a living through coercive means (including using coercive proxies like the government to sustain that living), I say welcome to America! :)

SpicyTurkey
06-19-2012, 04:32 PM
The unique quality of America which is supposed to make us different from all other nations is that we are supposed to respect the Rule of Law, rather than the rule of men. This is why the founders gave us a republic.

When your first move here is in defiance of the law - and, by extension, in defiance of our sovereign right of self-determination, that's a pretty horrible start and is offensive to the very reason why we have a nation in the first place.

In semantic terms, this makes you more of a colonist than an immigrant.

If you want to live here do it in a way that is not disrespectful to the people you claim to want to be your countrymen. Go home.

I can invite whomever I want into my property. Douche bag.

soulcyon
06-19-2012, 04:38 PM
I dont like immigration laws either, but being here illegally is no excuse for avoiding the consequences.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 04:45 PM
The demise of the native americans is proof positive why illegal immigration does not work. It's essentially a death warrant at the long end of the curve.

Yeah if those backwards indians were only as smart as us Americans and simply declared the foreign Europeans to be "illegal immigrants" then that whole genocide thing wouldn't have happened. Good point.

torchbearer
06-19-2012, 04:47 PM
I can invite whomever I want into my property. Douche bag.

yup, you also have the right to use your own money to hire who you want.
people on this forum who think they have to the right to tell you otherwise are tyrants by nature and want to remove your natural rights.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 04:49 PM
I dont like immigration fugitive slave laws either, but being here illegally is no excuse for avoiding the consequences.

How about now?

SpicyTurkey
06-19-2012, 04:49 PM
yup, you also have the right to use your own money to hire who you want.
people on this forum who think they have to the right to tell you otherwise are tyrants by nature and want to remove your natural rights.

I agree 100%. +rep

AuH20
06-19-2012, 04:49 PM
Yeah if those backwards indians were only as smart as us Americans and simply declared the Europeans to be "illegal" then that whole invasion/colonization/genocide thing wouldn't have happened. Good point.

They lived a nomadic lifestyle based on the satisfaction of basic needs (no more, no less) & in their naivete they foolishly made pacts with a technologically advanced civilization that placed a societal premium on the consolidation of resources as well as property. It wasn't going to end well the moment these two groups met.

erowe1
06-19-2012, 04:50 PM
I dont like immigration laws either, but being here illegally is no excuse for avoiding the consequences.

When somebody's trying to violate your rights, isn't trying to avoid the consequences exactly what you should do?

If you got mugged in an alley, I don't suppose you'd tell the mugger, "In addition to the wallet you already got from me, let me show you some more money I have hidden in my shoe." They have no right to your money, and you have no moral obligation to help them violate your rights. Now giving them your money might be the right decision if it will be a way of preserving your life, but that would only be determined by its expediency, not some moral duty.

PaulConventionWV
06-19-2012, 04:54 PM
Moral Relativism + paper = the constitution, subject to change with the will of the people. Followed by none.

So does this mean you don't want the rule of law?

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 05:00 PM
They lived a nomadic lifestyle based on the satisfaction of basic needs (no more, no less) & in their naivete they foolishly made pacts with a technologically advanced civilization that placed a societal premium on consolidating resources as well as property. It wasn't going to end well the moment these two met.

Oh I see what you were getting at now. Now that America is a nomadic culture based on the satisfaction of basic needs and "illegal immigrants" are technologically advanced, we now have a chance to change history by making sure that this superior civilization doesn't take advantage of us and murder us all by first outlawing them from "our" turf. We need to stop being so naive about the technologically advanced culture of immigrants trying to usurp and murder us and petition the government to save us from this devious enemy.

PaulConventionWV
06-19-2012, 05:04 PM
Not true.



You can have tyrannical rule of law.

But the definition you gave says otherwise. It says "It stands in contrast to the idea that the ruler is above the law..."

That is exactly what I just said.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 05:06 PM
Oh I see what you were getting at now. Now that America is a nomadic culture based on the satisfaction of basic needs and "illegal immigrants" are technologically advanced, we now have a chance to change history by making sure that this superior civilization doesn't take advantage of us and murder us all by first outlawing them from "our" turf.

Not really. The culture south of the border is woefully inferior to western civ and would have never gained a foothold here without the substantial aid of the federal government. Take away the entitlement system & the language aids and there theoretically would be no illegal immigration problem.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 05:12 PM
yup, you also have the right to use your own money to hire who you want.
people on this forum who think they have to the right to tell you otherwise are tyrants by nature and want to remove your natural rights.

Exactly. Petty tyrants who lobby the government to violate the property and liberty of their neighbors (while claiming to speak for them at the same time) and well dressed gang bangers who don't realize how similar they are to the violent hoodlums they decry.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 05:13 PM
They lived a nomadic lifestyle based on the satisfaction of basic needs (no more, no less) & in their naivete they foolishly made pacts with a technologically advanced civilization that placed a societal premium on the consolidation of resources as well as property. It wasn't going to end well the moment these two groups met.

As someone whose grandfather was native American, I'd say that's about the most accurate analysis I've ever heard of the meeting between Europeans and native Americans. And it didn't end well, native Americans experienced persecution up through the middle portion of the 20th century, and even still the broken promises of this government continue.

For what it's worth, the most valuable lesson the native Americans could ever teach us is what happens when you do business with the government of the majority. Which is why, even though I'm opposed to unrestricted immigration, I can't really expect the government to do much about it. You might imagine my dilemma when people call me a statist for my closed-border beliefs, when I suppose I am one of the few ones on here who neither trust unbridled immigration proponents, nor those who seek to enlist *this* government to manage it.

In that regard, there's not much to do other than wait for the inevitable to happen: Native American lessons unlearned, Part 2.

dannno
06-19-2012, 05:22 PM
The demise of the native americans is proof positive why illegal immigration does not work. It's essentially a death warrant at the long end of the curve.

Not necessarily, I'd give more credit to the banking cartels that were backing the imperialists for taking out the Native Americans.

torchbearer
06-19-2012, 05:24 PM
Exactly. Petty tyrants who lobby the government to violate the property and liberty of their neighbors (while claiming to speak for them at the same time) and well dressed gang bangers who don't realize how similar they are to the violent hoodlums they decry.


i'm interested to see if any of them see the connection between their lust to rule over other people with that same lust in the people they supposedly oppose.
maybe they fit in the camp of " don't tread on my rights, but you can fuck my neighbor over as long as it doesn't bother me"

dannno
06-19-2012, 05:29 PM
But the definition you gave says otherwise. It says "It stands in contrast to the idea that the ruler is above the law..."

That is exactly what I just said.

No, you said that the rule of law implies that the those in government can't do anything that the people aren't allowed to do.

Well, I'm not allowed to arrest somebody, try them and incarcerate them myself, but the government is currently allowed to do that. There are a lot of things the government is allowed to do that people aren't allowed to do. When you take all those things away, you have a voluntaryist type 'government'.

The rule of law implies that the rulers, as individuals, cannot break the laws. But there are plenty of people in government who have positions of authority who can engage in activities that a normal individual cannot.

But the point of the rule of law is that everybody has to follow it, no matter what it is tyrannical or otherwise. It implies some sort of binding social contract, which I am against.

MelissaWV
06-19-2012, 05:38 PM
well, to be fair the analogy is dishonest. a country isn't an individual and doesn't have property rights.
i doubt the OP has made himself home at someone elses property without invite.

If someone wants to live here, why shouldn't they? rent a place, buy some property, sign up as an indentured servant, whatever. But its not the government privilege to envade in any work contracts made.


YEAH! WHO invited you onto OUR turf, boyee? As an American (ie: not you), I feel entitled to control everything "we" have here in "our" turf. Oh that's cute you got a job and a place to live? Too bad you "forgot" this was my gang's territory, homie. HA, like you couldn't see our colors flyin' around everywhere? We don't give a f*&^ about your ass, G, (at least not until you're initiated after pledging your loyalty to the collective. Until then, you're just some scrub that needs to GTFO of our hood.)


Some of you have had your sense of humor surgically removed, I see.

At least you both gave me a giggle or two or twenty in this thread :)

PaulConventionWV
06-19-2012, 05:39 PM
No, you said that the rule of law implies that the those in government can't do anything that the people aren't allowed to do.

Well, I'm not allowed to arrest somebody, try them and incarcerate them myself, but the government is currently allowed to do that. There are a lot of things the government is allowed to do that people aren't allowed to do. When you take all those things away, you have a voluntaryist type 'government'.

The rule of law implies that the rulers, as individuals, cannot break the laws. But there are plenty of people in government who have positions of authority who can engage in activities that a normal individual cannot.

But the point of the rule of law is that everybody has to follow it, no matter what it is tyrannical or otherwise. It implies some sort of binding social contract, which I am against.

It implies that everyone's natural rights be respected. No government official can try and incarcerate you from the comfort of his or her own home under the rule of law. That doesn't mean that's the way it is now, but it wouldn't happen in a Constitutional Republic. The rule of law is based on natural rights, not just the current law as it stands at the time. I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of where the terminology comes from. The rule of law is not some arbitrary term used to say "obey or die." It means that the law does NOT come from the people, but that the law is based on our natural rights and that those laws should be held above any government figure who would wish to change them. Essentially, the rule of law in this country is already long gone.

However, what I think you don't understand is that the rule of law can exist in any society, including an ancap society if they were all willing to follow it. Many ancaps here advocate for the rule of law in addition to anarchy. I think it's impractical, but it is certainly theoretically possible to have the rule of law, even minus a government to enforce it. The point is that the rule of law is completely independent of those who rule the law, so to speak.

torchbearer
06-19-2012, 05:45 PM
Some of you have had your sense of humor surgically removed, I see.

At least you both gave me a giggle or two or twenty in this thread :)

even though i qouted you, i was writing more in general as there are some people who do think that way.
they equate property rights with the dictates of a government. i never got that.

Meatwasp
06-19-2012, 05:52 PM
The demise of the native americans is proof positive why illegal immigration does not work. It's essentially a death warrant at the long end of the curve.

Nothing is destroyed. It is just changed. I enjoy change.
I am so ashamed of all you negative people on immigrants.
Shit all our ancestors were immigrants and probably illegal too.

Lucille
06-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Congratulations! Just in time for a sovereign debt crisis that will lead to less wealth, opportunity and untold suffering, a metastasizing police state complete with drones from sea to shining sea and a 1 million square foot "data" center that will spy on Americans with impunity, and a dictatorial executive branch which has proclaimed the right to detain and/or kill anyone, anywhere, at anytime (among other powers), and an utterly corrupt and moronic banksta-owned CONgress that now considers America a battlefield and due process quaint!

I hope you know he only did it to get votes. When he said, "It's the right thing to do," that's what he meant. He was downright cruel until he "evolved."

46,000 Parents of U.S. Citizens Deported; 5,100 Kids Ripped From Their Families and Put in Foster Care (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/03/obamas-immigration-legacy-4600)

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Nothing is destroyed. It is just changed. I enjoy change.
I am so ashamed of all you negative people on immigrants.
Shit all our ancestors were immigrants and probably illegal too.

I pose the same challenge to you as I did in another post.

Go invite a few hundred thousand neocons and Obama-bots to come post here on Ron Paul forums, and once you've done that, assuming they take you up on that offer, tell me whether you think it is more accurate to say that RonPaulForums.com was destroyed or "changed." lol

truelies
06-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Is harboring .......................

you are an obamabot, aren'tcha.

angelatc
06-19-2012, 06:49 PM
Nothing is destroyed. It is just changed. I enjoy change.
I am so ashamed of all you negative people on immigrants.
Shit all our ancestors were immigrants and probably illegal too.

No, they weren't.

I am guessing you haven't been looking for a job for two years, and neither has the little illegal POS that started this thread.

Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment. Amazing how the economics majors forget that part when it comes putting fucking bullshit political philosophy over legal and economic reality.

Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

jj-
06-19-2012, 06:53 PM
No, they weren't.

I am guessing you haven't been looking for a job for two years. Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment. Amazing how the economics majors forget that part when it comes putting fucking bullshit political philosophy over legal and economic reality.

Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

There is no such thing as labor surplus in a free market. Shortages and surplus of any product, including labor, can only exist when the prices can't adjust freely. So the problem is not "excess workers", but minimum wage laws and other regulations that artificially increase the price of labor.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 06:54 PM
you are an obamabot, aren'tcha.

Right...most ancaps are Obamabots (sarcasm)...LOL!!!!!!!!!!! He's the furthest thing from an Obama/Romney supporter. Nice attempt at an ad hominem though, keep those informal logical fallacies flying!

Ask yourselves this...why is it that you guys can't find a single minarchist libertarian organization that supports your point of view on immigration?

Well maybe Dondero would...lol.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 06:56 PM
you are an obamabot, aren'tcha.

Not really, but I found a picture of one from google:

http://dronewarsuk.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/predator-firing-missile4.jpg

dannno
06-19-2012, 07:00 PM
the little illegal POS that started this thread.

Wow, that is just nuts.. He's a MINOR!! His PARENTS brought him here, you really expect that a minor is going to be in position to buy a plane ticket back to their home country that is completely foreign to them when their Visa expires and some how go back there and survive when they might not even know anybody?

Ya, maybe there is some lack of responsibility there on the parent side, but I can't believe you called the OP a POS for being a minor who overstayed their VISA, is patriotic in a positive sense and loves Ron Paul.

Cowlesy
06-19-2012, 07:00 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

erowe1
06-19-2012, 07:02 PM
Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

I saw a lot of things in that article about how claims made about Obama's move could be wrong or misconstrued. But I couldn't find a single thing in it that showed it would be damaging. The same article could just as easily have the title, "Obama's Amnesty Even Better Than It Appears."

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 07:03 PM
Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment

Actually immigrants, in their largest waves in our history - or anywhere in the world - (which lower wages in your theory), INCREASED native wages and lowered unemployment. I'll requote myself a third time and give the link to the thread that has, on page one, a long post by me with the links you need to give up these anti-free market positions based on economic fallacies:


Also, again, native wages INCREASE (as the data shows in the links) with immigration, they do not fall to meet the immigrants wages. Immigrant labor makes products we buy cheaper, which makes us relatively wealthier, logically. Being wealthier because of cheaper goods mean we have more expendable income for consumption. More consumption equals more profits, and more profits equal more jobs and/or higher wages. This is how markets work. You need to do more study on labor market economics.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?381015-Immigration-Policy-Poll-Law-to-Prevent-Immigrants-from-Getting-Benefits-for-X-Years

There is also a poll you can take in immigration policy in that thread.

As I keep saying, economics are counter intuitive, but deductively logical. Only looking at supply (labor surplus) ignores demand (Bastiat's Seen vs Unseen).

erowe1
06-19-2012, 07:06 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

This is an ironic statement, since it's not just An-caps who are for open borders, but also most Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians, notably the one this website is named after.

Does anybody really think that a Ron Paul administration would deport illegal immigrants?

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 07:06 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

And all the minarchist libertarian organizations of any repute agree with us, why exactly?

This isn't about ancap vs minarchism...it's about free markets vs protectionism in labor markets, and libertarian ethics vs some bastardization of them guising themslves as "libertarian" among immigration hawks.

Link us to one reputable libertarian organization (hint: Red State is not one) full of minarchists that calls for anything but open borders.

This "he's an anarchist, so he can't be right" ad hominem is illogical and getting old fast. I guess if Hitler said the sky was blue that would mean the sky is not blue...sheesh.

BuddyRey
06-19-2012, 07:09 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

With all due respect Cowlesy. I don't think any of us would make the case that there should be *no* borders. Voluntaryists/ancaps just believe that borders needn't be communally owned.

Borders delineating people's justly-acquired property should be an inviolable cornerstone of any free society. But when a meddling overseer outside the jurisdiction of your property tells you that you can't hire or interact with someone from another place, that's not you or your peer violating the sanctity of a border; that's the overseer violating the sanctity of your border, and being an "illegal immigrant" into your personal affairs.

For what it's worth, I don't think anybody here is a bigot, racist, or statist. I just think this is one of those areas wherein libertarians will inevitably have disagreements.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 07:12 PM
Nothing is destroyed. It is just changed. I enjoy change.
I am so ashamed of all you negative people on immigrants.
Shit all our ancestors were immigrants and probably illegal too.

Change into what?? A stratified plutocracy similar to Mexico??? At least in the U.S., there are remnants of freedom in that large shares of the population aren't trying to emigrate into Canada. But obviously, I don't know how long this situation will last.

Meatwasp
06-19-2012, 07:14 PM
No, they weren't.

I am guessing you haven't been looking for a job for two years, and neither has the little illegal POS that started this thread.

Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment. Amazing how the economics majors forget that part when it comes putting fucking bullshit political philosophy over legal and economic reality.




Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

I understand what you are saying but I remember some commie kids telling me that the government was going to put them to work picking fruit since they were on welfare. Hell no they wouldn't do that.This was in 1960s. The farmers were darn glad to have immigrants willing to do it.
I think the old BRACERO program was good. Where workers stayed to pick fruit and went back home.
Don't blame the immigrants blame the Bolsheviks that have taken over our country.

Meatwasp
06-19-2012, 07:30 PM
I pose the same challenge to you as I did in another post.

Go invite a few hundred thousand neocons and Obama-bots to come post here on Ron Paul forums, and once you've done that, assuming they take you up on that offer, tell me whether you think it is more accurate to say that RonPaulForums.com was destroyed or "changed." lol
Okay my bad. Heh

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 07:33 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

In other words you have no argument so you're making a case that the dreaded anarchists (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/tomwoodsanarchist.png/), who are obviously even worse than the "illegals", should simply be disregarded because... well hell they're anarchists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37tEeO-qTYo) for crying out loud!

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 07:42 PM
There is no such thing as labor surplus in a free market. Shortages and surplus of any product, including labor, can only exist when the prices can't adjust freely. So the problem is not "excess workers", but minimum wage laws and other regulations that artificially increase the price of labor.

Despite your evangelical zeal for free market platitudes, labor excesses and labor shortages do exist in the real world, and would even exist in the most free market possible. The big difference between surpluses of people and widgets is that widgets can be warehoused or destroyed.

William R
06-19-2012, 07:44 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

Go home and apply again. No excuses.

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 07:48 PM
An-caps loooooove immigration threads on republican/conservative/libertarian websites, because they think they have the moral, humanist high-ground arguing an anti-state position (open borders) which they believe boxes their ideological opponents into the easily derogatory terms "Statist!" or "Nationalist!" Some an-caps really like to press their luck and go for "Racist!" or "Bigot!"

Imprisoning and butchering animals for meat is immoral, thus only vegetarians have the moral hgh ground. ;)

jj-
06-19-2012, 07:50 PM
Despite your evangelical zeal for free market platitudes, labor excesses and labor shortages do exist in the real world, and would even exist in the most free market possible. The big difference between surpluses of people and widgets is that widgets can be warehoused or destroyed.

You're wrong, there is no such thing as surplus of labor, there are way too many things human demand to ever be more people than work needed to be done.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 08:00 PM
Despite your evangelical zeal for free market platitudes, labor excesses and labor shortages do exist in the real world, and would even exist in the most free market possible. The big difference between surpluses of people and widgets is that widgets can be warehoused or destroyed.

And again, studies for over 100 years now show that waves of immigration INCREASE wages and employment rates for natives, thereby INCREASING their standards of living. That's free market zealotry I suppose? Facts are facts.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 08:01 PM
Go home and apply again. No excuses.

I'd rather deport you, personally....but I wouldn't deport anyone. But if I had to choose...you.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 08:01 PM
There is no such thing as labor surplus in a free market. Shortages and surplus of any product, including labor, can only exist when the prices can't adjust freely. So the problem is not "excess workers", but minimum wage laws and other regulations that artificially increase the price of labor.

What happens to this theory when factoring in a new leisure class who own the means of counterfeiting? If you have to use real money while I have the means to officially deem my monopoly money as legal tender, what does that do to the free market? Is it any wonder people take mind altering drugs?

Xhin
06-19-2012, 08:02 PM
My policy on immigration is basically:

1. Secure the motherfucking borders. It's not hard, especially with our ridiculously over-the-top Defense budget.
2. Make becoming a citizen easier. Include, however, the necessity of learning or being in the process of learning our language.
3. Deport anyone who isn't on the road to citizenship and entered the country illegally.

It's not rocket science.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 08:03 PM
Imprisoning and butchering animals for meat is immoral, thus only vegetarians have the moral hgh ground. ;)

And again, can you link us to one reputable libertarian minarchist organization that agrees with your immigration beliefs? If not, please stop with the ad hominem on anarchists.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 08:04 PM
My policy on immigration is basically:

1. Secure the motherfucking borders. It's not hard, especially with our ridiculously over-the-top Defense budget.
2. Make becoming a citizen easier. Include, however, the necessity of learning or being in the process of learning our language.
3. Deport anyone who isn't on the road to citizenship and entered the country illegally.

It's not rocket science.

No, it's not rocket science...it's just anti-free market and against libertarian ethics.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 08:06 PM
What happens to this theory when factoring in a new leisure class who own the means of counterfeiting? If you have to use real money while I have the means to officially deem my monopoly money as legal tender, what does that do to the free market? Is it any wonder people take mind altering drugs?

And I suppose the 100 year long studies into this subject didn't occur during the FEDs reign over the last...100 years!?

We're grasping at straws here.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 08:08 PM
Okay my bad. Heh

I mean, let me apologize. I'm not necessarily attacking here. But the point that AuH20 and others are trying to make is that there are some philosophical differences between the American belief in the role of government, and what most of the rest of the world believes. (Now, granted, the American people currently have a very F'd up idea of what government should be doing, or at least, they tolerate our government doing it, even if they don't support it). Traditionally, however, government should be limited and not a provider from cradle-to-grave. Contrasted with nearly every European or South American population, the ideological contrasts between the governing philosophies are (or were, at some point in our history) obvious.

So, given my example, I'd suggest that we would be no more happier if 100,000 O-bots showed up on our forums one day, than they would be if one day 100,000 liberty lovers showed up on DailyKos (or RedState, Hannityforums, etc. for the neocons). I think that's what Jefferson's point was when he talked about 20 Million republican Americans being dumped in France. It would be disastrous and disharmonious for all parties involved.

There are certain core tenets that every society embraces. Sometimes, these principles are changed from within, and the result is usually pleasant. But, over-bearing influence from the outside can typically be expected to be rejected, for better or worse. Moral arguments aren't really applicable, it's just a fact of humanity. We are tribal by nature.

That's why when I went to district convention, I sat with the Ron Paul crowd. It wasn't 'cause I hated everyone else there; I sat where I sat because I wanted to be surrounded by people who share similar beliefs as I do. Everyone understands that, even the most ruggedly individualist individual.

(although, it is funny to see neocons get pissed off when you go sit in the middle of them and talk about ending the wars)

AuH20
06-19-2012, 08:12 PM
I mean, let me apologize. I'm not necessarily attacking here. But the point that AuH20 and others are trying to make is that there are some philosophical differences between the American belief in the role of government, and what most of the rest of the world believes. (Now, granted, the American people currently have a very F'd up idea of what government should be doing, or at least, they tolerate our government doing it, even if they don't support it). Traditionally, however, government should be limited and not a provider from cradle-to-grave. Contrasted with nearly every European or South American population, the ideological contrasts are (or were, at some point in our history) obvious.

So, given my example, I'd suggest that we would be no more happier if 100,000 O-bots showed up on our forums one day, than they would be if one day 100,000 liberty lovers showed up on DailyKos (or RedState, Hannityforums, etc. for the neocons). I think that's what Jefferson's point was when he talked about 20 Million republican Americans being dumped in France. It would be disastrous and disharmonious for all parties involved.

There are certain core tenets that every society embraces. Sometimes, these principles are changed from within, and the result is usually pleasant. But, over-bearing influence from the outside can typically be expected to be rejected, for better or worse. Moral arguments aren't really applicable, it's just a fact of humanity. We are tribal by nature.

That's why when I went to state convention, I sat with the Ron Paul crowd. It wasn't 'cause I hated everyone else there; I sat where I sat because I wanted to be surrounded by people who share similar beliefs as I do. Everyone does that, even the most ruggedly individualist individual.

(although, it is funny to see neocons get pissed off when you go sit in the middle of them and talk about ending the wars)

Ding Ding Ding. I've said this numerous times. Who is the more beloved historical icon around the equator?? Simon Bolivar or Che Guevera? :) They don't want the type of freedom that Americans know. They want something far different due to their unfortunate experiences with imperialism.

jj-
06-19-2012, 08:22 PM
Ding Ding Ding. I've said this numerous times. Who is the more beloved historical icon around the equator?? Simon Bolivar or Che Guevera? :) They don't want the type of freedom that Americans know. They want something far different due to their unfortunate experiences with imperialism.

Not a great argument. Who is the most beloved former President in the United States? Abraham Lincoln, FDR, or Teddy Roosevelt?

awake
06-19-2012, 08:23 PM
I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

You are the victim of a statist immigration policy that destroys the ability for honest hard working individuals to be invited and accepted in our society. Sadly immigration is at the ignorant politicians discretion, which is the root of the problem. The state should have nothing to do with immigration other than basic law and order of immigrants behavior in relation to private property rights of other individuals.

If I own property I should be completely allowed to welcome any one I want on it (from any where), as well as block any one from using it. Full private property rights not sabotaged by the state solves the immigration problem simply by granting my god given right to welcome you into my home or business. The state and government constantly manage "immigration reform" as a constant vote buy and deny true property rights that would address the problem out right.

The bare political perversity is that special (in most cases corrupt) interests pay politicians to "tweak" immigration to suit selfish and immoral racial mercantilist objectives. You are the political collateral damage that gets glossed over.

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 08:25 PM
And again, studies for over 100 years now show that waves of immigration INCREASE wages and employment rates for natives, thereby INCREASING their standards of living. That's free market zealotry I suppose? Facts are facts.

And there's no way in the world that the massive immigration was a lagging indicator, and only occurred after a labor shortage had existed and drove up wages already?


You're wrong, there is no such thing as surplus of labor, there are way too many things human demand to ever be more people than work needed to be done.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. :)

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 08:37 PM
Not a great argument. Who is the most beloved former President in the United States? Abraham Lincoln, FDR, or Teddy Roosevelt?

Well, as stated, Americans haven't done a spectacular job of keeping to our founding principles. However, I see comments like this a lot, and I can only conclude that supporters of open-borders somehow think that inviting more people into the country ,whose philosophies conflict with that of our founding fathers, is somehow going to get us back on track.

Which, makes no logical or mathematical sense. It's sort of like saying, "well, we're already in debt, so we might as well borrow some more money."

AuH20
06-19-2012, 08:41 PM
Well, as stated, Americans haven't done a spectacular job of keeping to our founding principles. However, I see comments like this a lot, and I can only conclude that supporters of open-borders somehow think that inviting more people into the country ,whose philosophies conflict with that of our founding fathers, is somehow going to get us back on track.

Which, makes no logical or mathematical sense. It's sort of like saying, "well, we're already in debt, so we might as well borrow some more money."

I think because they can't see the tyrannical mob that comes with the individual they so cherish. It's the libertarian blindspot.

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 08:43 PM
And all the minarchist libertarian organizations of any repute agree with us, why exactly?

This isn't about ancap vs minarchism...it's about free markets vs protectionism in labor markets, and libertarian ethics vs some bastardization of them guising themslves as "libertarian" among immigration hawks.

Link us to one reputable libertarian organization (hint: Red State is not one) full of minarchists that calls for anything but open borders.

This "he's an anarchist, so he can't be right" ad hominem is illogical and getting old fast. I guess if Hitler said the sky was blue that would mean the sky is not blue...sheesh.

And then Godwin's law rears it's head...

BTW, Red State is dominated by globalist neo-conservatives who agree with open borders. Add some vote hungry Democrats, and some elitist GOP cheap labor addicts, and you can throw a big party to celebrate the utter defeat of the tiny paleo-minority.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 08:46 PM
And then Godwin's law rears it's head...

BTW, Red State is dominated by globalist neo-conservatives who agree with open borders. Add some vote hungry Democrats, and some elitist GOP cheap labor addicts, and you can throw a big party to celebrate the utter defeat of the tiny paleo-minority.

Correcto mundo. And many of those serial offenders live in gated communities. :) Go figure.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 08:48 PM
And I suppose the 100 year long studies into this subject didn't occur during the FEDs reign over the last...100 years!?

We're grasping at straws here.

Professionals become helpful experts on the local level. They become harmful wizards on the federal.
As my nation is the state of Texas, my national economy should be the state of Texas. Talk of a national economy is just madness spoken by people who look pretty when they posture to speak eloquently. In the end, we solve our problems on the local level, lobby away jobs on the national, and throw away careers on the global.
How can anyone argue with this? The idea of tyranny wasn't that the king wasn't a rightful leader, but that he was too far away to rule responsibly.

jj-
06-19-2012, 08:49 PM
Open borders won't necessarily lead to a lot of immigration without a welfare state. I think the real problem the United States is starting to have is emigration. An important proportion of the smartest future billionaires are going to make their fortunes in other tax jurisdictions.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 08:53 PM
They don't want the type of freedom that Americans know. They want something far different due to their unfortunate experiences with imperialism.

Really? The type of freedom that americans know? You mean like the type of freedom where you can order your neighbor to deport their family because they don't have their "papers"? Maybe you're talking about the freedom to drink raw milk, is that the sort of freedom you're talking about? Americans sure know a lot about freedom. Mostly how to squander it.

Let's test this theory about those American Freedom™ hating illegals... why we have one right here: hey UMULAS, what type of freedom do you want? Do you want to deport natural american citizens like some of the people in this thread want to deport you?

The illegals are going to destroy American Freedom! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?381108-I-was-going-to-be-deported-in-a-few-months-not-anymore-thanks-to-Obama.-PLEASE-READ!&p=4502184&viewfull=1#post4502184)

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 08:57 PM
I think because they can't see the tyrannical mob that comes with the individual they so cherish. It's the libertarian blindspot.

For what its worth, I do hope for the day when everyone sees themselves as individuals and we can put all this collectivist nonsense behind us.

But, until that day comes, there's going to be pretty obvious division between those who see themselves in a collective sense and those who see themselves in a purely individual sense.

Ironically, that puts everyone in an "us versus them" situation, which is, well, collectivist thinking. (individualists can't escape it, lol)

However, as a matter of preserving what little we have left of the ideas of life, liberty, and private property, some collectivist 'banding together' amongst believers of those principles might be necessary, unfortunately.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Really? The type of freedom that americans know? You mean like the type of freedom where you can order your neighbor to deport their family because they don't have their "papers"? Maybe you're talking about the freedom to drink raw milk, is that the sort of freedom you're talking about? Americans sure know a lot about freedom. Mostly how to squander it.

Hey UMULAS, what type of freedom do you want? Do you want to deport natural american citizens like some of the people in this thread want to deport you?

The illegals are going to destroy American Freedom! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?381108-I-was-going-to-be-deported-in-a-few-months-not-anymore-thanks-to-Obama.-PLEASE-READ!&p=4502184&viewfull=1#post4502184)

Illegals are going the hurry the process to destroy what's left of American Freedom. They can be bought cheap, while many of us in here are fighting the good fight.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Well, as stated, Americans haven't done a spectacular job of keeping to our founding principles. However, I see comments like this a lot, and I can only conclude that supporters of open-borders somehow think that inviting more people into the country ,whose philosophies conflict with that of our founding fathers, is somehow going to get us back on track.

Which, makes no logical or mathematical sense. It's sort of like saying, "well, we're already in debt, so we might as well borrow some more money."

Nice post, Fd. nobody's hero. By the way, the title Fd. in front of your name stands for Founder. This is a designation for a new kind of leader who is someone other than a lawyer.
In my opinion, Fd. nobody's hero, it is easier to reduce to what is the one true American dichotomy. I made this claim in my "Criterion Versus Criteria" thesis. I tried presenting a paradox showing how science reduces to a criterion of evidence while the sophisticates use a trick of expanding towards an infinite criteria of evidence. The best a criterion of evidence can be is a dichotomy. Our schools have been teaching false dichotomies.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 09:06 PM
And there's no way in the world that the massive immigration was a lagging indicator, and only occurred after a labor shortage had existed and drove up wages already?


We'll have to agree to disagree on that. :)

Go look at the data, and answer your own question...no, immigration was not determined by a need for labor, and in fact the same complaints you all are making were made back then about immigrants. "We don't need all these unskilled Irish in these bad economic times of high unemployment". They were wrong, our position won out. Once again, the unemployment rates DROP and native standards of living RISE when we accept immigrants. This isn't able to be magically changed to fit your anti-free market argument.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 09:07 PM
Open borders won't necessarily lead to a lot of immigration without a welfare state. I think the real problem the United States is starting to have is emigration. An important proportion of the smartest future billionaires are going to make their fortunes in other tax jurisdictions.

I've kicked around the idea of emigrating myself.

I've narrowed it down to either Switzerland or Ireland. Switzerland is nearly impossible to immigrate to, though, and economic pressure from the E.U. is likely to claim the Swiss way of life in ways that the Alps couldn't protect that country from.

I admire the Irish for their stubborn resistance to the E.U., though there are some philosophical stances in Ireland that I'd have to learn to accept. It's their culture, and it would be rather presumptuous of me to go there and expect everyone to see things my way.

But, seeing as I haven't got the money to go anywhere else, and they probably wouldn't appreciate my non-political-correctness at times, looks like I'm stuck here in the U.S., going down fighting 'til the end.

EDIT: I should throw in Australia, too. I wouldn't appreciate the government there trying to regulate . . . . everything, but Aussie women are gorgeous. I wonder if I could make it in the outback living off the grid, but it's far more likely I'd just get bit by a super-poisonous snake and die alone.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 09:10 PM
I think because they can't see the tyrannical mob that comes with the individual they so cherish. It's the libertarian blindspot.

No, it's because these fears have existed for hundreds of years and never have panned out once. The voting pattern of immigrants is not directly correlated to the countries they come from.

AuH20
06-19-2012, 09:10 PM
I've kicked around the idea of emigrating myself.

I've narrowed it down to either Switzerland or Ireland. Switzerland is nearly impossible to immigrate to, though, and economic pressure from the E.U. is likely to claim the Swiss way of life in ways that the Alps couldn't protect that country from.

I admire the Irish for their stubborn resistance to the E.U., though there are some philosophical stances in Ireland that I'd have to learn to accept. It's their culture, and it would be rather presumptuous of me to go there and expect everyone to see things my way.

But, seeing as I haven't got the money to go anywhere else, and they probably wouldn't appreciate my non-political-correctness at times, looks like I'm stuck here in the U.S., going down fighting 'til the end.

Reagan famously uttered that in his convention speech. The U.S. is the endgame, in that there will be no place to run to when the curtains finally fall. Better to stay and fight & give these criminals hell.

jj-
06-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Reagan famously uttered that in his convention speech. The U.S. is the endgame. Better to stay and fight & give these criminals hell.

It sounds like a good idea. For somebody who makes an average amount of money, it is probably not too hard. But if you're a rich person who pays millions in taxes just by staying you might help the enemy more than you can attack it. Another reason it makes sense for promising entrepreneurs to leave.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 09:14 PM
Nice post, Fd. nobody's hero. By the way, the title Fd. in front of your name stands for Founder. This is a designation for a new kind of leader who is someone other than a lawyer.
In my opinion, Fd. nobody's hero, it is easier to reduce to what is the one true American dichotomy. I made this claim in my "Criterion Versus Criteria" thesis. I tried presenting a paradox showing how science reduces to a criterion of evidence while the sophisticates use a trick of expanding towards an infinite criteria of evidence. The best a criterion of evidence can be is a dichotomy. Our schools have been teaching false dichotomies.

What?

+rep

I think.

(Oh, I love ya, uncle)

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 09:14 PM
And then Godwin's law rears it's head...

BTW, Red State is dominated by globalist neo-conservatives who agree with open borders. Add some vote hungry Democrats, and some elitist GOP cheap labor addicts, and you can throw a big party to celebrate the utter defeat of the tiny paleo-minority.

You do realize that's why I said NOT Red State? Obviously not. See, they agree with YOU on immigration over at Red State, not me. Nevermind...ugh.

And again, you cannot find that link to any minarchist libertarian organizations that back your values in immigration...can you? If not, you are anti-libertarian here, not anti-anarchist.

Go to Red State and see the VAST MAJORITY rant just like you about the bad bad "illegals". Border hawking is a neocon/paleocon position, not a liberty position. That's why Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanon agree on this issue, and libertarians (who like to use data and free market advocacy along with libertarian ethics) do not.

I'm waiting on these libertarian minarchist organizations that agree with your ideals...

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Reagan famously uttered that in his convention speech. The U.S. is the endgame, in that there will be no place to run to when the curtains finally fall. Better to stay and fight & give these criminals hell.

That's what eventually did it for me, in my decision to stay. There's no where to run from the international banking cartel.

James Madison
06-19-2012, 09:17 PM
That's what eventually did it for me, in my decision to stay. There's no where to run from the international banking cartel.

Moon base?

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 09:18 PM
Professionals become helpful experts on the local level. They become harmful wizards on the federal.
As my nation is the state of Texas, my national economy should be the state of Texas. Talk of a national economy is just madness spoken by people who look pretty when they posture to speak eloquently. In the end, we solve our problems on the local level, lobby away jobs on the national, and throw away careers on the global.
How can anyone argue with this? The idea of tyranny wasn't that the king wasn't a rightful leader, but that he was too far away to rule responsibly.

This entire statement did nothing to address what my point was. You didn't even combat what I said...you claimed the FED printing money (counterfeit) somehow meant the success of immigration being condusive causally to economic growth in both native incomes and native employment rates over the last 100 years wouldn't work in the era of counterfeit...I explained that the FED existed over that same 100 years....so your point was defeated.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 09:20 PM
Illegals are going the hurry the process to destroy what's left of American Freedom. They can be bought cheap, while many of us in here are fighting the good fight.

Cool so you're going to promote tyranny to save liberty. Kinda like when George Bush decided to “abandon free-market principles to save the free-market system."

Gotcha.

ProIndividual
06-19-2012, 09:23 PM
Illegals are going the hurry the process to destroy what's left of American Freedom. They can be bought cheap, while many of us in here are fighting the good fight.

This is complete nonsense, it goes against everything we know about economics, assimilation patterns in immigrants in history, etc.

You are fighting for the wrong thing, and not the good fight on immigration.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2012, 09:26 PM
Moon base?

No, hell no. I'm not living the rest of my years with Newt Gingrich.

DerailingDaTrain
06-19-2012, 10:07 PM
Well, as stated, Americans haven't done a spectacular job of keeping to our founding principles. However, I see comments like this a lot, and I can only conclude that supporters of open-borders somehow think that inviting more people into the country ,whose philosophies conflict with that of our founding fathers, is somehow going to get us back on track.

Which, makes no logical or mathematical sense. It's sort of like saying, "well, we're already in debt, so we might as well borrow some more money."

Ummm since when can illegals vote and give campaign contributions?

susano
06-19-2012, 10:21 PM
Sure thing, I'll edit it aswell.

Well how many immigrants like myself keep allowing to be stayed here is because of my Visa, which in general had to have kept renewed, the problem was that I couldn't get it renewed, meaning that I was going to be deported (I'm a minor for everyone to know). Though Courts and the police (yes they don't deport you ASAP) said that I was going to have my case to be looked on, I was expected a few more months and I was going to be back to Argentina. I was still able to go to school just like any other normal person.

For other illegals questions:

Illegals do drive but without a licence, so it's pretty scary that you can get stopped by an officer, realizes that you have nothing, and you will be put to jail (this happened to a friend of mine).

Illegals also work under the table, meaning that we get paid in hard cash, not because we don't want to pay our taxes, because their is nothing else for us to do. I mean workers permit, WTF. My Dad was able to work for setting up his "own" company which is legal and my mom had to work under the table.

Renting an apartment is also easy as well, we just pay normally and nothing else, don't know any specific questions about the one your asking.

Hi :) I am reading your thread with interest. Immigration, legal and illegal, is a complicated issue and it's used as a weapon by politicians. I'll comment more when I read the thread.

What amazes me is that anyone would want to leave Argentina for the US! I thought Argentina was supposed to great and far more free than here.

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 10:28 PM
You do realize that's why I said NOT Red State? Obviously not. See, they agree with YOU on immigration over at Red State, not me. Nevermind...ugh.

And again, you cannot find that link to any minarchist libertarian organizations that back your values in immigration...can you? If not, you are anti-libertarian here, not anti-anarchist.

Go to Red State and see the VAST MAJORITY rant just like you about the bad bad "illegals". Border hawking is a neocon/paleocon position, not a liberty position. That's why Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanon agree on this issue, and libertarians (who like to use data and free market advocacy along with libertarian ethics) do not.

I'm waiting on these libertarian minarchist organizations that agree with your ideals...

Oh really? And how much time do you spend at RedState? They really love Buchanan over there. :rolleyes: There is a vocal majority that are pro-immigration. It is the majority opinion of neo-conservatives to be for massive immigration. Just like John McAmnesty. Of course when backed into a corner he will pay a little lip-service to paleos by saying, completely disingenuously, "build the damn fence". Of course you will find a certain number of tea party types who want immigration control and are pro-war at the sane time, but those people are not true neo-conservatives. They just happen to agree with them about war, just like you agree with them about globalism and massive immigration.

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 10:32 PM
No, it's because these fears have existed for hundreds of years and never have panned out once. The voting pattern of immigrants is not directly correlated to the countries they come from.

Just for the record, which country are you in? Are you a US citizen?

jj-
06-19-2012, 10:36 PM
Is the major reason to oppose immigration that they would vote Democrat?

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 10:37 PM
Let's test this theory about those American Freedom™ hating illegals... why we have one right here: hey UMULAS, what type of freedom do you want?

Is free education a freedom? ;) (Not that I blame him for wanting it.)


Then were would I go to school? I pay taxes, ergo, I want education!

archangel689
06-19-2012, 10:40 PM
Why do I disagree with the minarchists on this perspective? I could babble on about natural rights, but the empiricals also support my claim. Immigrants are what made this country great.

Market power is the power of trade. Government power is the
power of the gun.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtRmS7q9DlM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.antolin-davies.com/conventionalwisdom/h1bjobs.pdf

http://www.antolin-davies.com/conventionalwisdom/h1bsocialsecurity.pdf




I don't know why people believe that immigrants is the "cancer" of any nation, they allow more work competition, and whether you believe it or not, immigrants can make jobs aswell; look at Miami,Fl or McDonalds (MC is from a different country, any guesses).

But back to the point

I was going to be deported in a few months because my visa expired, and I LOVE this country! I find it not my fault because I was born in another country, but my Patriotism and the country I want to be in is here! I want to be able to help out with this liberty movement and to be able to help bring back the republic to this country, yet ironnically I was going to have no way to live here; even if I wanted to come back, it would take 10 years. I feel great that me and my friends (as well as 800,000 people) will be able to live in this blessed country, but many people make it seem that I'm a parasite whose sucking all your money through taxes. Why is that?

Brian4Liberty
06-19-2012, 11:10 PM
Is the major reason to oppose immigration that they would vote Democrat?

That is probably true in the short run.

I used to be just like any other libertarian/Reagan Republican: free trade, open immigration. Then I saw what happened in reality. Reading an interview where Ron Paul said that the amount of immigration should be based on the health of the economy crystallized it for me. That was a better option than massive immigration no matter what. I also saw first hand what Jefferson meant by too many people immigrating at once and how it could change the (local) culture dramatically.

I would like to believe that after a generation or two of integration into American society that the voting patterns would return to a standard "American" distribution. But it is interesting to see the various differences in cultures and how that can effect politics. The attitudes that come with an authoritarian society do not disappear overnight just because someone comes to the US. Same with socialism or communism. People who come to the US purely to make money do not necessarily disagree with the government of the country where they left. They may actually be big supporters of their former government.

There is often a false assumption that immigrants come here because they were oppressed or disagreed with the government of their former country. This was obviously true with the immigration that came after revolutions, coups, civil wars and various regime changes around the world (especially when the US openly or secretly backed the loser in those battles). But as a generalization, it is not true of economic immigrants, whose reason for immigration is to make money.

Of course all of the US States that have had a big influx of Californians can attest to the effect that has had on their local politics. Did their freedom increase when the Californians came?

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-19-2012, 11:12 PM
Why do I disagree with the minarchists on this perspective? I could babble on about natural rights, but the empiricals also support my claim. Immigrants are what made this country great.

Market power is the power of trade. Government power is the
power of the gun.

We should hire immigrants to work as professors of




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtRmS7q9DlM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.antolin-davies.com/conventionalwisdom/h1bjobs.pdf

http://www.antolin-davies.com/conventionalwisdom/h1bsocialsecurity.pdf

This video must have been filmed in the seventies back when people really ate up this horseshit.

noneedtoaggress
06-19-2012, 11:26 PM
Is free education a freedom? ;) (Not that I blame him for wanting it.)

I see, so it's "the illegal's" fault that America has a public schools system, then. The public school system is an invention of "the illegals" to subvert American Freedom™.

Is expecting something back from the taxes you paid wrong? Do you expect to receive something for paying taxes? Say, maybe hiring a bunch of goons with guns to "deport" your neighbors?

Zippyjuan
06-19-2012, 11:39 PM
Is the major reason to oppose immigration that they would vote Democrat?

They can't vote until they become citizens.

susano
06-19-2012, 11:40 PM
Immigrants aren't the problem, government is the problem. The laws give immigrants all that stuff for free.

^^THIS

The big shitstorm comes down to non citizens freeloading on those citizens who have wages stolen from them. Prior to illegals being eligible for government benefits, I really don't remember much uproar. Of course, the commie globalists have used illegals as pawns to break down American sovereignty, so that has really been a game changer. When you have La Raza, a Ford Foundation creation, laying claim to hoards of Mexicans and inciting hatred toward Americans, which they have done, it's no longer as simple as people just coming and looking for a better life. These vile organizations like La Raza and the Southern Poverty Law Center have a VERY sinister agenda. The best thing that we who just love freedom can do for those who come here is to educate them about these evil entities who wish to use them for their own reasons.

Zippyjuan
06-20-2012, 12:28 AM
They aren't elgible for Federal Government benefits. They can't get Social Security or Medicare.

Wooden Indian
06-20-2012, 12:31 AM
I'm against amnesty, but say congratulations just the same. I'd rather have a libertarian minded illegal immingrant than another leftist crybaby.

kuckfeynes
06-20-2012, 12:54 AM
Man, the people telling this kid to get out need to check their priorities and engage in a little introspection.

They cite "rule of law" yet there is none. If there were rule of law he wouldn't be having this problem that is merely an effect of many many other problems.

The law that is written isn't followed, and the law that is has become so broad, complicated, and vague, that any of us could be made criminals and have our basic freedoms violated at any time.

We are all this kid.

susano
06-20-2012, 12:58 AM
Congratulations! Just in time for a sovereign debt crisis that will lead to less wealth, opportunity and untold suffering, a metastasizing police state complete with drones from sea to shining sea and a 1 million square foot "data" center that will spy on Americans with impunity, and a dictatorial executive branch which has proclaimed the right to detain and/or kill anyone, anywhere, at anytime (among other powers), and an utterly corrupt and moronic banksta-owned CONgress that now considers America a battlefield and due process quaint!

I hope you know he only did it to get votes. When he said, "It's the right thing to do," that's what he meant. He was downright cruel until he "evolved."

46,000 Parents of U.S. Citizens Deported; 5,100 Kids Ripped From Their Families and Put in Foster Care (http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/03/obamas-immigration-legacy-4600)

The information in that article is appalling, if true. It may be, given the penchant the control freaks have for stealing children. I'm bothered by where the info came from: The Applied Research Center (ARC) is a racial justice think tank and home for media and activism... (which was all I could dig up because the Google is failing to connect with the server, at the moment). "Racial justice" (like "social justice") sounds like seeing individuals through the lens of color (straight up collectivist), to me, along with some other very loaded and obvious political stench. Anyway, it defies logic to not deport illegals WITH their minor children, if the idea is really deportation. Then again, there are political/ideological persuasions that believe that children belong to the state, soooo, looks like that element behind it. American (born here) children must not be relinquished to their foreign parents, I guess. The "village" has taken possession.

susano
06-20-2012, 01:08 AM
No, they weren't.

I am guessing you haven't been looking for a job for two years, and neither has the little illegal POS that started this thread.

Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment. Amazing how the economics majors forget that part when it comes putting fucking bullshit political philosophy over legal and economic reality.

Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

Damn, I am not in favor of the social engineering mass immigration that has been foisted upon Americans but POS? Really? Wow, that is ugly.

One of my favorite humans is Cesar Milan. He was an illegal immigrant.

susano
06-20-2012, 01:29 AM
You're wrong, there is no such thing as surplus of labor, there are way too many things human demand to ever be more people than work needed to be done.

You are engaging in intellectual masturbation. Step into the real world, if you will..

Humans can "demand" all they want but it doesn't mean that other, even desperate, humans will work for next to nothing (which is what many other humans would like). They will find work arounds.

DerailingDaTrain
06-20-2012, 01:47 AM
You are engaging in intellectual masturbation. Step into the real world, if you will..

Humans can "demand" all they want but it doesn't mean that other, even desperate, humans will work for next to nothing (which is what many other humans would like). They will find work arounds.

That's simply not true. It depends on the person but there are certainly people who would work for next to nothing.

dannno
06-20-2012, 02:46 PM
You are engaging in intellectual masturbation. Step into the real world, if you will..

Humans can "demand" all they want but it doesn't mean that other, even desperate, humans will work for next to nothing (which is what many other humans would like). They will find work arounds.

Anybody would work for "next to nothing" if it is better than the next best alternative.

ZenBowman
06-20-2012, 03:24 PM
No, they weren't.

I am guessing you haven't been looking for a job for two years, and neither has the little illegal POS that started this thread.

Labor surplus = lower wages and higher unemployment. Amazing how the economics majors forget that part when it comes putting fucking bullshit political philosophy over legal and economic reality.

Obama's Amnesty Much More Damaging Than It Appears (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/19/obamas-amnesty-dream-presidents-measure-is-much-mo/)

And another so-called "small government" advocate demonstrates their authoritarian roots.

ZenBowman
06-20-2012, 03:25 PM
Cool so you're going to promote tyranny to save liberty. Kinda like when George Bush decided to “abandon free-market principles to save the free-market system."

Gotcha.

Great analogy, reps.

ZenBowman
06-20-2012, 03:30 PM
So does this mean you don't want the rule of law?

It depends on the laws.

If the laws are tyrannical, where they force me to go to jail for smoking pot or hiring a Mexican national over an American, then no.

If the laws are reasonable, such as preventing me from harming someone else or destroying the area in which others live, then sure.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 03:39 PM
Damn, I am not in favor of the social engineering mass immigration

But isn't that exactly what "anti-immigration" is?

You forsake your neighbors property rights, and freedom of association, and the individual liberty of "illegals" so that you can socially engineer the region you claim to control through the force government provides to fit your preferences?

Anti-Immigration is just Nationalists and Protectionists lobbying the government so they can "centrally plan" a region they feel they own and are entitled to control for their benefit.

susano
06-20-2012, 03:42 PM
That's simply not true. It depends on the person but there are certainly people who would work for next to nothing.

Yes, some people will bow and scrape and work for next to nothing, but not all. Those who do eventually get pissed off about it and end up being the next group of recruits for the socialists/Marxists. The left eats this shit up. They NEED the disadvantaged to keep the perpetual revolution and class struggle alive. Mexicans with sixth grade educations who come across the boarder are not going to be finding any great opportunities here. Most will remain poor and expect a nanny state to meet their needs and La Raza and the other shit stirring NGOs will be there to brainwash them that they have the RIGHT to demand these things. The government of Mexico gets the last laugh as they export their poverty and the uneducated.

It's ridiculous to talk about immigration - legal or illegal - in some intellectual vacuum. What we are experiencing is deliberate social engineering and the utopian one world view of some libertarians and Marxists doesn't take stuff like the Ford Foundation and other globalist orgs agenda into account. There is nothing pro freedom about what's happening. This is about building the global plantation with communism for the masses, lorded over by a global elite.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 03:54 PM
Yes, some people will bow and scrape and work for next to nothing, but not all. Those who do eventually get pissed off about it and end up being the next group of recruits for the socialists/Marxists. The left eats this shit up. They NEED the disadvantaged to keep the perpetual revolution and class struggle alive. Mexicans with sixth grade educations who come across the boarder are not going to be finding any great opportunities here. Most will remain poor and expect a nanny state to meet their needs and La Raza and the other shit stirring NGOs will be there to brainwash them that they have the RIGHT to demand these things. The government of Mexico gets the last laugh as they export their poverty and the uneducated.

It's ridiculous to talk about immigration - legal or illegal - in some intellectual vacuum. What we are experiencing is deliberate social engineering and the utopian one world view of some libertarians and Marxists doesn't take stuff like the Ford Foundation and other globalist orgs agenda into account. There is nothing pro freedom about what's happening. This is about building the global plantation with communism for the masses, lorded over by a global elite.

Well, the world's richest man does live in Mexico. And it is very much a plutocracy with the upper crust White Mexican families who's bloodlines stretch back to Spain, sitting firmly atop the economic pyramid. There really is no middle class in Mexico.

Poor, uneducated Mexicans who are barely fluent in Spanish are ripe for being commissioned into this army for social justice as you said. In the end, the same type of plutocracy in their country is going to take root here.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 04:11 PM
The Globalists' Uneducated Mexican Marxist Army is gonna destroy liberty in America, and we can't have that so we'll stop them by imposing tyranny to prevent them from destroying liberty.

We've got to out socially-engineer the property-hating control mongers by becoming social-engineering property-disregarding control mongers!

susano
06-20-2012, 04:35 PM
But isn't that exactly what "anti-immigration" is?

You forsake your neighbors property rights, and freedom of association, and the individual liberty of "illegals" so that you can socially engineer the region you claim to control through the force government provides to fit your preferences?

Anti-Immigration is just Nationalists and Protectionists lobbying the government so they can "centrally plan" a region they feel they own and are entitled to control for their benefit.

I'm not anti immigration nor am I anti nationalism. I oppose social engineering by corporatist globalists and the Marxist minions they use (ironically enough) in their quest to create a global plantation. You're arguing purely intellectual points and I'm talking about reality. I would love a world where there were no obstacles to moving about freely, no taxes, no government, free enterprise, etc, but that world doesn't exist and the purpose of the social engineers' mass shuffling around of humans is not to create that utopian paradise. It's to destroy national sovereignty and create a global superstate of trade zones and cheap labor. The encouraging of Mexicans to come here, and there has been encouragement from the federal level and the Mexican govt, is about the SPP/North American Union/NAFTA free trade region, which is solely for the benefit of multinational corporations. Notice while there is freedom for corporations, there isn't any for people. They want us tracked like cattle because we are the slaves on the plantation. Some of the most strident advocates for open borders, like Luis Guttierez, are big proponents of bio metric ID.

As usual, this is one of those issues that's a bait and switch. The appeal is made to the goodness in people when the agenda is something entirely different. Look at the EU, for instance. Lots of Europeans welcomed the idea of traveling and working without restriction but that came with an unelected bunch of bureaucrats, some avowed communists, running the show and destroying any shred of sovereignty or self determination. Feel free to move freely about the PLANTATION. THAT is what the social engineers want - not some groovy one free world free from oppression.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm not anti immigration nor am I anti nationalism. I oppose social engineering by corporatist globalists and the Marxist minions they use (ironically enough) in their quest to create a global plantation. You're arguing purely intellectual points and I'm talking about reality. I would love a world where there were no obstacles to moving about freely, no taxes, no government, free enterprise, etc, but that world doesn't exist and the purpose of the social engineers' mass shuffling around of humans is not to create that utopian paradise. It's to destroy national sovereignty and create a global superstate of trade zones and cheap labor. The encouraging of Mexicans to come here, and there has been encouragement from the federal level and the Mexican govt, is about the SPP/North American Union/NAFTA free trade region, which is solely for the benefit of multinational corporations. Notice while there is freedom for corporations, there isn't any for people. They want us tracked like cattle because we are the slaves on the plantation. Some of the most strident advocates for open borders, like Luis Guttierez, are big proponents of bio metric ID.

As usual, this is one of those issues that's a bait and switch. The appeal is made to the goodness in people when the agenda is something entirely different. Look at the EU, for instance. Lots of Europeans welcomed the idea of traveling and working without restriction but that came with an unelected bunch of bureaucrats, some avowed communists, running the show and destroying any shred of sovereignty or self determination. Feel free to move freely about the PLANTATION. THAT is what the social engineers want - not some groovy one free world free from oppression.

Correct. We lost the education system decades ago. Obviously, the media has been compromised for much longer than that. We do not have tools at our disposal to educate millions of poor, desperate people who are merely trying to survive from day to day. The statists have us outgunned in that respect. They can readily supply immigrants with attractive benefits and services, all the while bending them to their will. Until we can take back those areas of influence, it is suicidal to maintain an open borders policy.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 04:44 PM
it is suicidal to maintain an open borders policy.

"Suicidal" meaning who exactly dies?

AuH20
06-20-2012, 04:46 PM
"Suicidal" meaning who exactly dies?

The entire national identity. We become Europe West unless something radically changes. Bringing in masses of immigrants simply expedites the inevitable. I personally am not in favor of throwing away key periods of time in the slight hope of a revival. If you think today's sheep are bad, wait until you see what's coming down the pike.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 04:49 PM
The entire national identity.

I have trouble seeing why I should care about the survival of whatever that is.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 04:50 PM
I have trouble seeing why I should care about the survival of whatever that is.

The fact that you say this speaks volumes. You sound historically ignorant. Values come from people as opposed to magically appearing from the ether. If those people vanish, you will have serious problems. In turn, something else more sinister replaces it in that vacuum. If you want to be part of the global plantation, I wish you the best of luck.

jj-
06-20-2012, 04:53 PM
If there is a "national identity", that in itself is a bad thing. I wish states had more autonomy and the only "national issue" was the states getting together to figure out what to do about defense. If there is a point when there is a "national identity", the degree of centralization is such that the country cannot survive.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 04:55 PM
If those people vanish, you will have serious problems.

If what people vanish? I'm a person, and illegal immigration won't make me vanish. Is it going to make you vanish?

susano
06-20-2012, 05:00 PM
The Globalists' Uneducated Mexican Marxist Army is gonna destroy liberty in America, and we can't have that so we'll stop them by imposing tyranny to prevent them from destroying liberty.

We've got to out socially-engineer the property-hating control mongers by becoming social-engineering property-disregarding control mongers!

That's not what I'm saying. I can't speak for anyone else. What I'm saying is that this immigration issue is not a result of natural migration and nice people are not controlling what's going down (and it IS being controlled). Immigration doesn't exist in a vacuum! There is a much bigger agenda behind what's going on. Unless you're cool with living on a global plantation, you might want to consider this.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 05:02 PM
If what people vanish? I'm a person, and illegal immigration won't make me vanish. Is it going to make you vanish?

Domestic Americans like Ron and Rand Paul who can trace their heritage back to Pennsylvania. Stewards of this country. Other intellectual giants like Walter Williams and Thomas Woods. True historians who understand the key nuances in which this country was founded. They are dying and being replaced exponentially by interlopers, with no insight or stake in this country, who simply want a crust of bread. There will be no national identity but rather a bland, universal pecking order akin to the raising of livestock. The U.S. has been gradually assimilated into this global cesspool of slavery for quite some time and the process is nearly complete.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 05:05 PM
I'm not anti immigration nor am I anti nationalism. I oppose social engineering by corporatist globalists and the Marxist minions they use (ironically enough) in their quest to create a global plantation. You're arguing purely intellectual points and I'm talking about reality. I would love a world where there were no obstacles to moving about freely, no taxes, no government, free enterprise, etc, but that world doesn't exist and the purpose of the social engineers' mass shuffling around of humans is not to create that utopian paradise. It's to destroy national sovereignty and create a global superstate of trade zones and cheap labor. The encouraging of Mexicans to come here, and there has been encouragement from the federal level and the Mexican govt, is about the SPP/North American Union/NAFTA free trade region, which is solely for the benefit of multinational corporations. Notice while there is freedom for corporations, there isn't any for people. They want us tracked like cattle because we are the slaves on the plantation. Some of the most strident advocates for open borders, like Luis Guttierez, are big proponents of bio metric ID.

As usual, this is one of those issues that's a bait and switch. The appeal is made to the goodness in people when the agenda is something entirely different. Look at the EU, for instance. Lots of Europeans welcomed the idea of traveling and working without restriction but that came with an unelected bunch of bureaucrats, some avowed communists, running the show and destroying any shred of sovereignty or self determination. Feel free to move freely about the PLANTATION. THAT is what the social engineers want - not some groovy one free world free from oppression.

You really can't see how you've become that which you fear?

You're going to preserve freedom from oppression by creating even more oppression?

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 05:11 PM
The statists have us outgunned in that respect.

Oh, and how do you propose we stop these 'statists'? Oh it's by giving more power and control to the state! Fantastic.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 05:11 PM
Domestic Americans like Ron and Rand Paul who can trace their heritage back to Pennsylvania. Stewards of this country. Other intellectual giants like Walter Williams and Thomas Woods. True historians who understand the key nuances in which this country was founded. They are dying

They are? Because of illegal immigration?

Every person you mentioned is for unlimited immigration, and not one of them thinks it will make them die, or prevent them from being able to influence others to take up their mantles in the next generation.

I like the line about tracing their lineage back to Pennsylvania though. That's funny.

And what in the world is "stewards of this country" supposed to mean? What country?

AuH20
06-20-2012, 05:16 PM
They are? Because of illegal immigration?

Every person you mentioned is for unlimited immigration, and not one of them thinks it will make them die, or prevent them from being able to influence others to take up their mantles in the next generation.

I like the line about tracing their lineage back to Pennsylvania though. That's funny.

Yes, Ron and Rand Paul who both want to retract the birthright citizenship clause found in the 14th amendment. :) And both Woods and Williams have wrote more than a few pieces citing their opposition to open borders. True patriots who see the error of open borders in the modern age.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 05:18 PM
Yes, Ron and Rand Paul who both want to retract the birthright citizenship clause in the 14th amendment.
So do I. I don't want anyone to become citizens. That has nothing to do with limiting immigration or deporting anyone.


And both Woods and Williams have wrote more than a few pieces citing their opposition to open borders.
Got links?

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 05:22 PM
Domestic Americans like Ron and Rand Paul who can trace their heritage back to Pennsylvania. Stewards of this country. Other intellectual giants like Walter Williams and Thomas Woods. True historians who understand the key nuances in which this country was founded. They are dying and being replaced exponentially by interlopers, with no insight or stake in this country, who simply want a crust of bread. There will be no national identity but rather a bland, universal pecking order akin to the raising of livestock. The U.S. has been gradually assimilated into this global cesspool of slavery for quite some time and the process is nearly complete.

And you're going to save it by giving the government power and control. When you don't even have the right to petition the government to use violence against your neighbors who act peacefully and voluntarily with each other.

WAR IS PEACE!

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!

SAVE CAPITALISM BY ABANDONING IT!

AuH20
06-20-2012, 05:22 PM
So do I. I don't want anyone to become citizens. That has nothing to do with limiting immigration or deporting anyone.


Got links?

Woods:
http://www.humanevents.com/2007/07/20/founding-fathers-were-immigration-skeptics/

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/features/liberty-and-immigration/

Williams:
http://www.creators.com/opinion/walter-williams/illegal-immigration.html

susano
06-20-2012, 05:24 PM
Correct. We lost the education system decades ago. Obviously, the media has been compromised for much longer than that. We do not have tools at our disposal to educate millions of poor, desperate people who are merely trying to survive from day to day. The statists have us outgunned in that respect. They can readily supply immigrants with attractive benefits and services, all the while bending them to their will. Until we can take back those areas of influence, it is suicidal to maintain an open borders policy.


The globalists are manipulating the Mexicans exactly as they have blacks. Corral them on the plantation and keep 'em pacified with government cheese. A happy slave will always defend the massah and see things like the freedom movement as a threat to their comfort.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 05:24 PM
And you're going to save it by giving the government more power to control.

Aside from launching a coup within Mexico City, that none us of want, it's the best tool available at the moment. Other than establishing a temporary firewall, there is no real solution that solves the problem for all parties.

AuH20
06-20-2012, 05:27 PM
The globalists are manipulating the Mexicans exactly as they have blacks. Corral them on the plantation and keep 'em pacified with government cheese. A happy slave will always defend the massah and see things like the freedom movement as a threat to their comfort.

And the racist gringo like Ron Paul will always be seen as the bad guy trying to take their goodies away. There is no way to successfully win this argument with a demographic that has very little education and has never experienced upward economic mobility. It's bad enough that a fair share of our natives are raving idiots. Now we want to embark on the most challenging educational experiment known to man, rife with communication and cultural difficulties?

Ronulus
06-20-2012, 05:32 PM
The whole illegal immigration thing is just another sideshow to get your attention while the federal government is busy sticking it in your ass.

Illegal immigrants are only a strain on the 'system' as the system allows it to be. The real problem is the system to begin with and not who is using the system. We are all supposed to acknowledge as liberty lovers that the system is broken and a reliance on government for handouts is unacceptable. Yet when it comes to illegal immigrants many of us do not see it that way, we instead like to place blame on the individuals because they have now done something 'illegal'.

If they come to work they are still paying taxes, they are shopping at our local stores, they are contributing to our economy.

When they are taking welfare, they do it because they are allowed. Same as those that are american citzens. I don't want welfare or government handouts to be allowed for anyone, citizen or not.

Enjoy your stay UMULAS.

torchbearer
06-20-2012, 05:40 PM
Stop using government violence against other people who are not invading your personal property, taking your things, damaging your body, or holding you hostage.

susano
06-20-2012, 05:43 PM
I have trouble seeing why I should care about the survival of whatever that is.

"That" is whatever we have left of the ideals of the founders. While it may seem that that's all been completely obliterated, it isn't really so. As bad as things are here, and they are bad, it could be like Europe where you do not have the right to speak your mind if someone else finds it 'offensive'. People are in fucking prison, in Europe, for daring to do research on WWII and the holocaust. Self defense and the right to bear arms is not a right. There are no national rights, let alone states rights. The concept of sound money isn't even understood there. While these things have been seriously eroded and are under attack, here, I'm pretty sure that folks who talk about freedom and liberty are interested in protecting what's left of and restoring the rest of that Jeffersonian thing - in one form or another.

erowe1
06-20-2012, 05:44 PM
"That" is whatever we have left of the ideals of the founders.

No it isn't. Find for me a single time any of the people you consider founders called what they were founding a nation.

alucard13mmfmj
06-20-2012, 05:49 PM
why dont we send troops down to mexico and bomb the hell out of the cartel and send in special ops to fuk up the cartel's operation.

if bombing a country was unavoidable because of the warmongers in washington/military industrial complex... i rather us bomb mexico than to bomb iran/syria. if obama can order american citzens to die... then certainly obama can order cartel members to be executed as well.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-20-2012, 05:59 PM
Aside from launching a coup within Mexico City, that none us of want, it's the best tool available at the moment. Other than establishing a temporary firewall, there is no real solution that solves the problem for all parties.

None of us want the tyranny in Mexico toppled?

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-20-2012, 06:00 PM
why dont we send troops down to mexico and bomb the hell out of the cartel and send in special ops to fuk up the cartel's operation.

if bombing a country was unavoidable because of the warmongers in washington/military industrial complex... i rather us bomb mexico than to bomb iran/syria. if obama can order american citzens to die... then certainly obama can order cartel members to be executed as well.

Just call them "Federal Washingtonians." That means the same thing as whoremongering war mongers.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
"That" is whatever we have left of the ideals of the founders. While it may seem that that's all been completely obliterated, it isn't really so. As bad as things are here, and they are bad, it could be like Europe where you do not have the right to speak your mind if someone else finds it 'offensive'. People are in fucking prison, in Europe, for daring to do research on WWII and the holocaust. Self defense and the right to bear arms is not a right. There are no national rights, let alone states rights. The concept of sound money isn't even understood there. While these things have been seriously eroded and are under attack, here, I'm pretty sure that folks who talk about freedom and liberty are interested in protecting what's left of and restoring the rest of that Jeffersonian thing - in one form or another.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/louisiana_is_the_worlds_prison.html


Louisiana is the world's prison capital. The state imprisons more of its people, per head, than any of its U.S. counterparts. First among Americans means first in the world. Louisiana's incarceration rate is nearly five times Iran's, 13 times China's and 20 times Germany's.

Save American Freedom from the Marxist Invaders! They're destroying America! Those Marxists have it backwards, big powerful government is bad, and social engineering is bad! Therefore I will petition to use the violent power of government to socially engineer and mold "my society" towards LIBERTY unlike the globalists who have destroyed liberty with their social engineering and promoting of government power!

And we must save the children so they'll be free from drugs and cage/deport/kill people who ingest drugs. Don't you know there's a concerted effort by cartels out there that want to sell drugs to ANYONE, EVEN CHILDREN??

And we must force them into schools to save them from the IGNORANT IDEAS like MARXISM.

Maybe we should burn all Marxist books. And all other books that don't promote my concept of American Freedom... to save LIBERTY!!!

And we must develop programs for the homeless and the poor by giving them access to opportunities so they get wealthy and aren't so easily tricked by the MARXISTS.

FREEEEDOOOMMM!!!!!

susano
06-20-2012, 06:03 PM
You really can't see how you've become that which you fear?

You're going to preserve freedom from oppression by creating even more oppression?

I think that you're twisting the meaning behind my words to suit your own position. I did not say that I fear anything and I certainly don't fear Mexicans who come here. I have explained that there is manipulation behind mass migration and the intentions behind that are not good. When something is presented to you, you need to look at the whole picture. I do not want to see the US be absorbed into the globalist slave plantation. I don't think that a society planned and executed by the global corporate elite is a good thing. Mexicans are just pawns in this game. They don't know shit from Shinola about who controls La Raza, one of their 'advocate' organizations. They don't consider the implications of biometric ID and being tracked like pieces of meat. They just want in, and I don't blame them for that. As I said, I welcome a government free, nanny state free utopia of total freedom but we don't have that and it's not the context under which Mexico is dumping it's unwanted population on the backs of American tax payers. Abolish the welfare state, taxes, and any ideas about ID cards and then open the borders.

I have to ask: Are you a globalist or a Marxist? I post with a bunch of them on a site out of London and you sound like they do. Likable bunch but just not very interested in freedom. They're pretty much happy with their unelected EU overlords as long as they can travel and work without restrictions.

mport1
06-20-2012, 06:08 PM
A tiny improvement from the Obama administration but we really need to end all immigration laws and have open borders.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-20-2012, 06:08 PM
"That" is whatever we have left of the ideals of the founders. While it may seem that that's all been completely obliterated, it isn't really so. As bad as things are here, and they are bad, it could be like Europe where you do not have the right to speak your mind if someone else finds it 'offensive'. People are in fucking prison, in Europe, for daring to do research on WWII and the holocaust. Self defense and the right to bear arms is not a right. There are no national rights, let alone states rights. The concept of sound money isn't even understood there. While these things have been seriously eroded and are under attack, here, I'm pretty sure that folks who talk about freedom and liberty are interested in protecting what's left of and restoring the rest of that Jeffersonian thing - in one form or another.

Do you ever read any of my threads or posts? One should always refer to our Founders not as "the founders" but as our Founders. We should refer to them intimately and in the higher case because, unlike those former founders who utilized legal precedence to create their nations, they confronted the issue of truth while utilizing the science of natural law to overturn every former tradition of legal precedence.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 06:10 PM
I have to ask: Are you a globalist or a Marxist? I post with a bunch of them on a site out of London and you sound like they do. Likable bunch but just not very interested in freedom. They're pretty much happy with their unelected EU overlords as long as they can travel and work without restrictions.

Um, you do realize that I'm arguing that it's not your right to violate the property and voluntary association of your neighbors because you're scared of "illegals", right?

Who here is interested in violating their neighbors property for a socialist "protection" racket? Who here is interested in using the government to socially engineer "our country"? Who here is interested in using the government against peaceful individuals who were born outside of their "turf"?

alucard13mmfmj
06-20-2012, 06:13 PM
i know we should mind our own business, but mexico is our neighbor and is affecting US.. especially states near the border.

noneedtoaggress
06-20-2012, 06:18 PM
i know we should mind our own business, but mexico is our neighbor and is affecting US.. especially states near the border.

Yeah if only Mexico would just butt out of our business and stop affecting us!

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/imgLib/20111005_FastFurious.jpg

dannno
06-20-2012, 06:24 PM
i know we should mind our own business, but mexico is our neighbor and is affecting US.. especially states near the border.

What is the CAUSE?

The war on drugs?

NAFTA, which forced Mexico to change their Constitution and resulted in a doubling of the poverty rate and millions of indigenous kicked off of their own farm land?

If you don't attack the cause, which is U.S. policy, then you aren't going to solve the problem.

susano
06-20-2012, 06:28 PM
No it isn't. Find for me a single time any of the people you consider founders called what they were founding a nation.

I didn't say anything about nation in that post. I was talking about the ideals pertaining to freedom which the forces controlling the immigration/illegal immigration global plantation issue are not interested in. You think John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Obama, and Sheila Jackson Lee (to name a few) are motivated by freedom in their support of Mexicans? How about the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller NGOs? La Raza? lol, not so much.

What I would like to see is the system dismantled so there is no plantation structure for the globalists to control. Until that happens, piling more Mexicans into the American system is not going to work out too well. I've lived in Los Angeles. I know what that future looks like. It sucks. That's why so many people are bailing on California. Remove that nanny state and forcing people to pay into it and immigration becomes much less of an issue. Not a non issue, mind you, but a less significant one.

susano
06-20-2012, 06:33 PM
None of us want the tyranny in Mexico toppled?

That would be nice but it's up to Mexicans, without outside interference, don't you think? :)