North Dakota: No more property taxes!

[paulbot24]

North Dakota is seeking to abolish their property taxes. “I would like to be able to know that my home, no matter what happens to my income or my life, is not going to be taken away from me because I can’t pay a tax,” said Susan Beehler, one in a group of North Dakotans who have pressed for an amendment to the state’s Constitution to end the property tax. Read more:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/north-dakota-voters-consider-ending-property-tax.html?_r=1&hp

[torchbearer]

i like.

[UtahApocalypse]

North Dakota is sounding better everyday. I think it could be the real Free State Project unlike NH

[Keith and stuff]

North Dakota is sounding better everyday. I think it could be the real Free State Project unlike NH

?

Your joke is silly because according to 2 recent polls, less people like the idea than before :p

The May 3rd through May 8th poll showed that 26% of people supported ended property taxes in ND and replacing them with higher sales and income taxes. The newest poll showed that only 21% of people supported ended property taxes in ND and replacing them with higher sales and income taxes. I don't know why less people support the centralization of the funding of the ND now than did a few weeks ago. Any idea?

Anyway, as for NH, there are already parts of NH without a personal income tax, a general sales tax or property taxes.

As for the FSP which state vote results?
The Winners and the Statistics
http://freestateproject.org/archives/state_vote/FSP-ECL-CertifyWhitePaper.htm


The answer to "which state is the Free State" is New Hampshire. New Hampshire not only beat 2nd place Wyoming by over 250 votes using the Condorcet Method, it also won if you just weighed "the number of first place votes granted to a state."

NH 1st overall
# of 1st place votes 749
# of 2ns place votes 341

ND last overall
# of 1st place votes 24
# of 2ns place votes 38

[Bern]

Debra Medina's We Texans (http://wetexans.com/) group is also lobbying a proposal for eliminating property taxes in Texas (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?373745-We-Texans-eliminate-property-taxes-in-Texas-May-3). They had a booth and were exhibiting at the Texas GOP state convention this past weekend (for the first time thanks to new state chairman Steve Munisteri) and from what I heard had some pretty positive impact. I talked to one of the candidates facing a run-off election for State Rep for my district and he had visited their booth and has a follow up meeting scheduled with them to discuss the issue further.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I'd consider moving there if they don't have a property tax. I have the same concerns.

[Kluge]

Seriously? It's definitely going through? Haven't read the article yet...I'll get on that.

[Kluge]

"CONSIDERS," dammit! It's the headline! Don't get my hopes up like that.

[hazek]

So people actually want to own their property? Who would have thought.

[thoughtomator]

I have absolutely no desire to live in North Dakota, but if they pass this it would be the only place worth considering buying property.

[Southron]

I would add a clause that it only applies to residents of the state until a majority of states adopt no property tax.

[tbone717]

I would add a clause that it only applies to residents of the state until a majority of states adopt no property tax.

If they do not have that provision, then it would be a great place for picking up some investment properties. I haven't read up on the legislation totally, but does anyone know if commercial properties would be excluded as well?

[TruckinMike]

Debra Medina's We Texans (http://wetexans.com/) group is also lobbying a proposal for eliminating property taxes in Texas (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?373745-We-Texans-eliminate-property-taxes-in-Texas-May-3). They had a booth and were exhibiting at the Texas GOP state convention this past weekend (for the first time thanks to new state chairman Steve Munisteri) and from what I heard had some pretty positive impact. I talked to one of the candidates facing a run-off election for State Rep for my district and he had visited their booth and has a follow up meeting scheduled with them to discuss the issue further.

Yes, BUT... there is a catch. They are compromising with a sales tax that everyone would pay - ok, sounds fair enough, however they are also including a "business' tax that only the self employed or corps would pay. I don't have the details. Their plan is not all roses. Some of it has a real stench to it. Swapping one tyranny for another is not progress in my book.

edit

one more thing, your property is still on the table for municipalities Tax(with provisions) or seize if they see fit. The law would not protect your property from state/county/city confiscation. They still would have their hooks in you.

[hazek]

Yes, BUT... there is a catch. They are compromising with a sales tax that everyone would pay - ok, sounds fair enough, however they are also including a "business' tax that only the self employed or corps would pay. I don't have the details. Their plan is not all roses. Some of it has a real stench to it. Swapping one tyranny for another is not progress in my book.

edit

one more thing, your property is still on the table for municipalities Tax(with provisions) or seize if they see fit. The law would not protect your property from state/county/city confiscation. They still would have their hooks in you.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a well functioning state. :rolleyes:

[Bern]

... there is a catch. They are compromising with a sales tax that everyone would pay - ok, sounds fair enough, however they are also including a "business' tax that only the self employed or corps would pay. I don't have the details. ...

The last time I read through their plan, it called for a flat (or "fair") tax on business to supplement the sales tax (only way to avoid having the sales tax explode to a level that would disadvantage the Texas economy). Some businesses would get lowered tax burdens while others would pay more. I have not analyzed the proposal in detail, but at first glance, it did not seem onerous or unreasonable.

[SludgeFactory]

I live in North Dakota and unfortunately the powers that be have done an excellent job of scaring the people into voting against abolishing property taxes. Even though several groups have shown that this could pay for itself without raising other taxes. If we cut the massive amount of waste in the ND State Government it would work.

It is really disheartening seeing all the people cave in to these special interests' supposed authority.

[Kluge]

I live in North Dakota and unfortunately the powers that be have done an excellent job of scaring the people into voting against abolishing property taxes. Even though several groups have shown that this could pay for itself without raising other taxes. If we cut the massive amount of waste in the ND State Government it would work.

It is really disheartening seeing all the people cave in to these special interests' supposed authority.

That really is a shame. I'd be looking at properties in ND right now if they'd ditch property taxes.

[Tod]

I did hear that it is not expected to pass.


dumb, dumb, dumb

[ravedown]

the bright side to all of this is that it is getting national attention in the NY Times and Drudge/MSNBC etc...it's being discussed and debated in the MSM and hopefully making people entertain the concept- even if it is being slammed as a bad idea. i don't live anywhere near ND but ive heard co-workers talking about this issue and discussing the pro's and cons-something i thought would never happen. the hard part is convincing them that government doesn't need the money in the first place and the services that would be cut or 'suffer' can be eliminated or funded though alternative means. that's when i get the eye rolls.

[Zippyjuan]

How the question appeared on the ballot:
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/North_Dakota_Property_Tax_Amendment,_Measure_2_(Ju ne_2012)

This initiated constitutional measure would amend sections 1, 4, 14, 15, and 16 of Article X of the North Dakota Constitution and repeal sections 5, 6, 7, 9, and 10 of that same article, eliminating property taxes, poll taxes, and acreage taxes, effective January 1, 2012. The measure would require the Legislative Assembly to replace lost revenue to cities, counties, townships, school districts, and other political subdivisions with allocations of various state-level taxes and other revenues, without restrictions on how these revenues may be spent by the political subdivisions.
YES – means you approve the measure as summarized above.
NO – means you reject the measure as summarized above.


Fiscal note

The following is the fiscal note prepared by the North Dakota Secretary of State's office:

The fiscal note prepared by the Tax Department states the measure will repeal ad valorem property taxes effective January 1, 2012. The amount of property taxes that would be eliminated upon successful passage of the measure would total $812,225,000 for 2012. The estimated fiscal impact assumes the effective date of the measure would initially impact and repeal 2012 property taxes that would be due and payable in 2013. The estimated fiscal impact reflects only one year of the 2011-13 biennium. The impact for subsequent bienniums would reflect a two-year period. Based on the historical property tax growth of 7.7 percent, per year the estimated fiscal impact of the measure for the 2013-15 biennium would be $1.8 billion.[7]

[TonySutton]

<snip> the hard part is convincing them that government doesn't need the money in the first place and the services that would be cut or 'suffer' can be eliminated or funded though alternative means. that's when i get the eye rolls.

This is the one thing I LIKE about sales tax. If all taxes were abolished and replaced by a sales tax, people would see the full cost of government every time they make a purchase.

I would like to see gas taxes itemized on receipts and displayed prominently on every pump.

I would like to see cigarette and liquor taxes itemized on receipts and displayed prominently at the merchandise.

[jmdrake]

?

Your joke is silly because according to 2 recent polls, less people like the idea than before :p

The May 3rd through May 8th poll showed that 26% of people supported ended property taxes in ND and replacing them with higher sales and income taxes. The newest poll showed that only 21% of people supported ended property taxes in ND and replacing them with higher sales and income taxes. I don't know why less people support the centralization of the funding of the ND now then did a few weeks ago. Any idea?


Probably the deal breaker is the increase in sales and income tax.

[TonySutton]

Probably the deal breaker is the increase in sales and income tax.

The thing that kills me is that there is no increase in the amount of money the government is spending but somehow people think they are going to be paying more. As if they as consumers are not paying for every bit of government already. Politicians simply hide the taxes and scatter them around so they are not as noticeable.

[Kluge]

The thing that kills me is that there is no increase in the amount of money the government is spending but somehow people think they are going to be paying more. As if they as consumers are not paying for every bit of government already. Politicians simply hide the taxes and scatter them around so they are not as noticeable.

Yep. I'd far prefer sales/income tax to property taxes. Genuine property ownership is very important, and I can always choose to buy or not buy a product, so it's closer to voluntary to replace property taxes with sales tax, and even income tax.

[Zippyjuan]

The thing that kills me is that there is no increase in the amount of money the government is spending but somehow people think they are going to be paying more. As if they as consumers are not paying for every bit of government already. Politicians simply hide the taxes and scatter them around so they are not as noticeable.

About half are likely property owners. (Actually I see that their home ownership rate is about 69% http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/NDHOWN ) If the measure passes, the taxes they were paying will be spread to everyone. If you are not a property owner, the taxes you pay will go up (though renters are paying property taxes too- the taxes the person you rent from is paying are included in the rental rate- will rents be reduced if the owner no longer has to pay that tax or will they keep the money?). How much more you pay will depend on how they structure the additional taxes on other things. Right now they are trying to claim that much of the increases can be funded via revenues they are getting from the oil and gas activities in the state.

[TonySutton]

About half are likely property owners. (Actually I see that their home ownership rate is about 69% http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/NDHOWN ) If the measure passes, the taxes they were paying will be spread to everyone. If you are not a property owner, the taxes you pay will go up (though renters are paying property taxes too- the taxes the person you rent from is paying are included in the rental rate- will rents be reduced if the owner no longer has to pay that tax or will they keep the money?). How much more you pay will depend on how they structure the additional taxes on other things. Right now they are trying to claim that much of the increases can be funded via revenues they are getting from the oil and gas activities in the state.

I believe a free market would allow the rents to settle. Currently due to the boom in ND I doubt prices would fall because there is higher than normal demand. These other factors will keep upward pressure on rent although not as much due to the loss of property taxes.

[SludgeFactory]

That really is a shame. I'd be looking at properties in ND right now if they'd ditch property taxes.

Indeed it is. I did my part and just got back from voting for this measure. Apparently there used to be a personaly property tax in ND that people finally abolished in the 60's. I guess having someone go through all your personal belongings was finally viewed as intrusive. And guess what!? Our State Government has still survived and even flourished after abolishing that. It is too bad more people don't have freedom loving mentality that used to be a bit more prevalent.