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TheTexan
06-11-2012, 10:53 AM
Do you expect to be free at some point in your lifetime?

If so, how do you expect that will happen, and in what timeframe? If not, what do you think is getting in the way of your freedom?

thoughtomator
06-11-2012, 10:57 AM
Freedom is a state of mind

paulbot24
06-11-2012, 11:02 AM
Freedom from a nanny nitpicky central government? Not sure. If Rand can further the revolution that Ron started I think we will start to notice some interesting changes and be on the road to freedom. Freedom from financial tyranny? I doubt it. Greed is king, and where there is a king you will always find servants nearby.

V3n
06-11-2012, 11:02 AM
I expect I'll see a "Liberty" President within my lifetime.

TheTexan
06-11-2012, 11:05 AM
Freedom is a state of mind

Only up to a point. For example you can be a freedom loving agorist who gets around all the rules... but if you do happen to get caught, that state of mind isn't going to help you get out of your prison cell.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
06-11-2012, 11:06 AM
Freedom from a nanny nitpicky central government? Not sure. If Rand can further the revolution that Ron started I think we will start to notice some interesting changes and be on the road to freedom. Freedom from financial tyranny? I doubt it. Greed is king, and where there is a king you will always find servants nearby.

Looking to the flesh and blood of a leader to solve problems is the worst kind of tyranny.

CaptUSA
06-11-2012, 11:10 AM
It is inevitable. The timing is the only thing in question.

The problem is that while we may achieve our freedom, our wealth will be completely decimated first. That's why I had no problem donating so much to Ron Paul. It's all going to be worthless once this system comes crashing down.

So while we will have our freedom, most people will not appreciate it because they will not have the means to enjoy it. But the cycle will begin again and this new freedom will bring about prosperity. And when it does, you will have those who wish to make a living by rerstricting people's freedom again and the people will, again, not care, because in their minds, freedom wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

TheTexan
06-11-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm not sure if I'm comfortable relying on the system to come crashing down. An economic collapse is on the horizon, that much is sure, but I'm not confident it will cause a collapse of the system itself.

In the old days, an economic collapse meant people starved, and died. Now... it mostly just means they lose their home and life savings, but they generally still have food on their plate. Until there is actual starvation on a massive level, the system will stay in place.

Unfortunately, when the economic collapse does hit us with it's full force, I believe tyranny will survive, if not thrive.

oyarde
06-11-2012, 11:30 AM
Yeah ,I think I wll make it . My goal is 2027 , Looks like I will make it . If I am still alive ....

ZenBowman
06-11-2012, 11:30 AM
I think of freedom as a variable on a continuum, its not a binary thing.

Do I expect freedom will increase over time? Yes, indeed, but not smoothly.

Ronulus
06-11-2012, 11:34 AM
Unfortunately, when the economic collapse does hit us with it's full force, I believe tyranny will survive, if not thrive.

I don't think so. I think when that happens we will be more seperated rather than united. I think communities will be more closely knit and try to take care of themselves rather than relying on big government.

AGRP
06-11-2012, 11:37 AM
You can have all the freedom you want as long as you don't make a sizable profit from it or step on the toes of those who are well connected with our government overlords.

osan
06-11-2012, 11:39 AM
Do you expect to be free at some point in your lifetime?

If so, how do you expect that will happen, and in what timeframe? If not, what do you think is getting in the way of your freedom?

I am already free. My only desire is to see the mobsters run out.

CaptUSA
06-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I don't think so. I think when that happens we will be more seperated rather than united. I think communities will be more closely knit and try to take care of themselves rather than relying on big government.Yeah, that's the way I see it as well.

The bonds that tie communities to the federal government will be broken. In the beginning, states and localities will go to the feds to get funds, but when they find out the feds don't have the money, things will get heated and breakdowns will occur rapidly. I'm sure many communities will use a tyrannical hand to try to maintain order, but it will be evident that people will gravitate towards the communities that are freer and more prosperous.

jj-
06-11-2012, 11:42 AM
It depends on your intelligence, creativity, and hard work to bring about freedom. Freedom could've been taken for granted for many decades, but not anymore. So unfortunately we have to spend time to regain it.

Zippyjuan
06-11-2012, 11:43 AM
Freedom is a state of mind
Totally agree. See my sig.

What would one consider "free" must be answered before one says if they believe they will be free in their lifetimes.

osan
06-11-2012, 11:44 AM
I think of freedom as a variable on a continuum, its not a binary thing.

You think incorrectly. One is either free or he is something else.

Never confuse or conflate pretty slavery with freedom.

Try reading this to occupy your time on the throne - it should help clear things up a bit:

http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com/2009/11/degrees-of-freedom.html


Do I expect freedom will increase over time? Yes, indeed, but not smoothly.

This, the product of errant thinking. Need to retrain that so you will not be fooled. :)

jj-
06-11-2012, 11:51 AM
You think incorrectly. One is either free or he is something else.

What about degrees of slavery? I certainly think that a cotton-picking slave is more enslaved than someone who pays a 10% consumption tax and no other tax.

IronPatriot
06-11-2012, 12:34 PM
I think things will get worse before they get better, but I'm certainly hoping massive changes will occur within my lifetime to bring about freedom.

John F Kennedy III
06-11-2012, 12:53 PM
You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands, when everybody's fighting for the "Promised Land"

Indy Vidual
06-11-2012, 12:55 PM
Freedom is a state of mind

+1776
Does "peaceful coexistence" (with an evil system) or any type of escape count?

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 01:02 PM
I don't know.

If you consider being "free" the state of being free from government surveillance and having a degree of privacy and anonymity as you move about and live your life; then no, not at all, and it will get worse as years go by and long after I'm dead.

DerailingDaTrain
06-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Truly free? Not in my lifetime.

Possibly not even in the lifetimes of my children.

Zippyjuan
06-11-2012, 01:33 PM
Free Yourself! The Untouchables.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57OZDh6VrJY

kahless
06-11-2012, 02:49 PM
Am I the only one that watches "Walking Dead" and thinks at least they are free from government? No, I do not think I will ever be free because the majority of people in this country worship government without even realizing it. Government has become their religion and they serve it like a cult.

ZenBowman
06-11-2012, 02:59 PM
You think incorrectly. One is either free or he is something else.

Never confuse or conflate pretty slavery with freedom.

Try reading this to occupy your time on the throne - it should help clear things up a bit:

http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com/2009/11/degrees-of-freedom.html


That's nice, he can use whatever definition he wants.

noneedtoaggress
06-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Discovering libertarianism and AE through Ron has already freed me of my mental shackles.

As far as politically... who knows. I could kick the bucket tomorrow for all I know.

But I do know that as soon as enough people coalesce to form a decent ancap community I'm there in a f&$^ing heartbeat.

AGRP
06-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Discovering libertarianism and AE through Ron has already freed me of my mental shackles.


x2

One of the biggest benefits since learning is being at peace. It is every other philosophy that wishes to use deadly force upon people who do them no harm. Even against people who put substances into their own bodies or people who wish to buy them. Throw people in prison for dealing or using Marijuana...even for life? Really!!?

bill1971
06-11-2012, 05:22 PM
This month I'm pretty busy, but early next month ill be free.


Ok, I doubt it as a society. I actually seeing it move in the other direction.

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 05:40 PM
I actually seeing it move in the other direction.

Rapidly.

A society where you are under 24/7 surveillance, where more people are in prison than any other place on the earth, where cops can kill you or your pets with impunity, where the president can claim executive authority to kill anybody he wants, on his say so alone, including US citizens, where you will lose your home if you fail to pay government rents, where government steals a chunk of your income before you even see it, where everything down to light bulbs and toilets is subject to federal regulation, where 10 to possibly as much as 30 percent of people on death row are innocent, where speech is only allowed at certain political functions inside heavily armed "free speech" zones, where non compliance with hundreds of thousands of federal regulations can result in prison terms, where all that and ten paragraphs more is happening every day, you cannot in any kind of way think that you are living in any sort of a free society.

John F Kennedy III
06-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Rapidly.

A society where you are under 24/7 surveillance, where more people are in prison than any other place on the earth, where cops can kill you or your pets with impunity, where the president can claim executive authority to kill anybody he wants, on his say so alone, including US citizens, where you will lose your home if you fail to pay government rents, where government steals a chunk of your income before you even see it, where everything down to light bulbs and toilets is subject to federal regulation, where 10 to possibly as much as 30 percent of people on death row are innocent, where speech is only allowed at certain political functions inside heavily armed "free speech" zones, where non compliance with hundreds of thousands of federal regulations can result in prison terms, where all that and ten paragraphs more is happening every day, you cannot in any kind of way think that you are living in any sort of a free society.

This ^

Gumba of Liberty
06-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Rapidly.

A society where you are under 24/7 surveillance, where more people are in prison than any other place on the earth, where cops can kill you or your pets with impunity, where the president can claim executive authority to kill anybody he wants, on his say so alone, including US citizens, where you will lose your home if you fail to pay government rents, where government steals a chunk of your income before you even see it, where everything down to light bulbs and toilets is subject to federal regulation, where 10 to possibly as much as 30 percent of people on death row are innocent, where speech is only allowed at certain political functions inside heavily armed "free speech" zones, where non compliance with hundreds of thousands of federal regulations can result in prison terms, where all that and ten paragraphs more is happening every day, you cannot in any kind of way think that you are living in any sort of a free society.

Without a doubt you are correct, but is this not desperate behavior on the part of our "rulers"? Do you believe the police state, like the banking system, can indefinitely spiral toward distopia or is their a breaking point where people lose faith in the whole system? I believe the latter.

kuckfeynes
06-11-2012, 06:54 PM
No, but I do believe market anarchism will at some point be commonplace in advanced societies. But it will take millenia for that evolution to occur. History is full of leaps forward toward liberty followed by centuries of gradual unraveling until the next leap. But each leap gains a little more ground. Imagine what was going through the heads of those who lived during the signing of the Magna Carta...

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Without a doubt you are correct, but is this not desperate behavior on the part of our "rulers"? Do you believe the police state, like the banking system, can indefinitely spiral toward distopia or is their a breaking point where people lose faith in the whole system? I believe the latter.

Depends on how well acclimated and in compliance the citizenry is.

I believe that this current crop of people inhabiting the United States right now, would barbeque their first born children and eat the flesh, on their front lawns, if government told them it was required to 'keep them safe'.

Especially after a "terror" event, real or false flag, that kills, not 3000, but 300,000 or 3,000,000 people.

At this point these people would excuse themselves for stepping on the guard's toes as the guard was shoving them into the Zyklon B shower.

LibForestPaul
06-11-2012, 07:06 PM
No, I believe we are entering another dark ages. 20 more years, this country will look like Russia and China. YES. Dormitories, corruption, property rights null and void...and we will likely still be more humane than either of those two countries. Happen in the past, will happen in the future.

matt0611
06-11-2012, 07:09 PM
No, I don't. In fact, I think things are going to get a lot lot worse.

Even if we do have freedom at one point I think its going to get a lot lot worse before it gets better. I feel like there's a tide slowly rising, the walls are closing in on the last freedoms we have left, and the world will descend into a depressing darkness. Maybe through a cataclysmic event (war, economic meltdown etc), maybe it will just be a really slow but steady slide into tyranny or a mixture of the two.

Either way I don't see things getting better. I'll do what I can to stop the rising tide of total government, total control, fascism, etc but I'm personally preparing for things to get really bad. And I don't think we have a lot of time. Batten down the hatches would be my advice.

Gumba of Liberty
06-11-2012, 07:10 PM
Depends on how well acclimated and in compliance the citizenry is.

I believe that this current crop of people inhabiting the United States right now, would barbeque their first born born children and eat the flesh, on their front lawns, if government told them it was required to 'keep them safe'.

Especially after a "terror" event, real or false flag, that kills, not 3000, but 300,000 or 3,000,000 people.

At this point these people would excuse themselves for stepping on the guard's toes as the guard was shoving them into the Zyklon B shower.

This is what the elite are hoping and praying for

kuckfeynes
06-11-2012, 07:14 PM
I believe that this current crop of people inhabiting the United States right now, would barbeque their first born born children and eat the flesh, on their front lawns, if government told them it was required to 'keep them safe'.

Sure, why not? Abraham was willing to (well not the barbeque part), and God rewarded him.
The voice of God is government...

green73
06-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Withdraw your consent, people, withdraw your consent (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard78.html).

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 07:22 PM
Sure, why not? Abraham was willing to (well not the barbeque part), and God rewarded him.
The voice of God is government...

Yup.

God himself at Passover, Herod and there are numerous examples in history of kings and pooh bahs doing exactly that, slaughtering off an entire generation of young men, and the people willingly complying, because, well, the king said so.

We need a new "Age of Enlightenment".

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 07:22 PM
This is what the elite are hoping and praying for

This is what the elite are planning to do.

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 07:31 PM
Withdraw your consent, people, withdraw your consent (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard78.html).

From the treatise:


The ostensible supporters of the Constitution, like the ostensible supporters of most other governments, are made up of three classes, viz.:

1. Knaves, a numerous and active class, who see in the government an instrument which they can use for their own aggrandizement or wealth.

2. Dupes – a large class, no doubt – each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a "free man," a "sovereign"; that this is a "free government"; "a government of equal rights," "the best government on earth," and such like absurdities.

3. A class who have some appreciation of the evils of government, but either do not see how to get rid of them, or do not choose to so far sacrifice their private interests as to give themselves seriously and earnestly to the work of making a change. - Lysander Spooner


I suspect most people here are in category three, I know I am.

I appreciate and am well aware of the evils of government, I know how to get rid of them, and am too protective of my own neck to become a martyr.

Pauls' Revere
06-11-2012, 07:45 PM
I do not and there are two reasons why, banks and government. The first I can eliminate and /or reduce voluntarily at my comfort level on my own. The second requires elimination/reduction through political process and the mindset of others.

Travlyr
06-11-2012, 07:46 PM
From the treatise:


The ostensible supporters of the Constitution, like the ostensible supporters of most other governments, are made up of three classes, viz.:

1. Knaves, a numerous and active class, who see in the government an instrument which they can use for their own aggrandizement or wealth.

2. Dupes – a large class, no doubt – each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a "free man," a "sovereign"; that this is a "free government"; "a government of equal rights," "the best government on earth," and such like absurdities.

3. A class who have some appreciation of the evils of government, but either do not see how to get rid of them, or do not choose to so far sacrifice their private interests as to give themselves seriously and earnestly to the work of making a change. - Lysander Spooner


I suspect most people here are in category three, I know I am.

I appreciate and am well aware of the evils of government, I know how to get rid of them, and am too protective of my own neck to become a martyr.

Category Three Here:

Getting rid of government doesn't make any sense to me.

Standards: Standards are documents provable in disputes. An ounce of pot weighs the same as an ounce of gold... the world around.
Contract Law: If one promises something to me either written or oral then a promise is a promise.
Land Law: If I stake boundaries and fertilize my land, then no one should intrude on my garden ... or kill my livestock ... unless I say it is okay. I'll shoot a deer who jumps the fence and eats my vegetables. I'll kill a steer at 1500 pounds if I need. While I will not shoot a man who steal my vegetables, I certainly will ask him if he needs the food more than I do. If so, then he can have some... but he should be willing to leave me enough for me and the people I care about. After all I am the guy who fertilized the soil, hoed the weeds, and watered the plants. Don't steal all my work.

Seraphim
06-11-2012, 07:53 PM
It's well underway. Tough times first, see you on the other side.


Yup.

God himself at Passover, Herod and there are numerous examples in history of kings and pooh bahs doing exactly that, slaughtering off an entire generation of young men, and the people willingly complying, because, well, the king said so.

We need a new "Age of Enlightenment".

Noble Savage
06-11-2012, 07:53 PM
I have no mortgage no lease no state license no state registration no contracts no debt no boss no spouse no ego ....

when is the last time you used your social slave number? your not free your a number, numbers are constrictive

most of you bitches have never even experienced real freedom

SpicyTurkey
06-11-2012, 07:53 PM
Being free implies responsibility. No thanks.

Anti Federalist
06-11-2012, 07:58 PM
Valid points but in that phrase Spooner was saying "getting rid of the evils" of government.

I honestly think that you could get to point where you could have a government body to protect those rights you mentioned, and not have be evil.


Category Three Here:

Getting rid of government doesn't make any sense to me.

Standards: Standards are documents provable in disputes. An ounce of pot weighs the same as an ounce of gold... the world around.
Contract Law: If one promises something to me either written or oral then a promise is a promise.
Land Law: If I stake boundaries and fertilize my land, then no one should intrude on my garden ... or kill my livestock ... unless I say it is okay. I'll shoot a deer who jumps the fence and eats my vegetables. I'll kill a steer at 1500 pounds if I need. While I will not shoot a man who steal my vegetables, I certainly will ask him if he needs the food more than I do. If so, then he can have some... but he should be willing to leave me enough for me and the people I care about. After all I am the guy who fertilized the soil, hoed the weeds, and watered the plants. Don't steal all my work.

Travlyr
06-11-2012, 08:05 PM
Valid points but in that phrase Spooner was saying "getting rid of the evils" of government.

I honestly think that you could get to point where you could have a government body to protect those rights you mentioned, and not have be evil.

Me Too.

I do not see government as "evil". I see government as benign.

kuckfeynes
06-11-2012, 08:15 PM
How can a violently enforced monopoly on dispute mediation be benign, while other violently enforced monopolies are not?

If it is fair, the market will choose it. And if it is able to be auctioned off for favor it will be.

Also, in common parlance an "ounce of gold" is actually 1.09714 ounces of pot.

osan
06-11-2012, 08:17 PM
Without a doubt you are correct, but is this not desperate behavior on the part of our "rulers"?

No. It's called "tightening the noose". To think that those in power are somehow on the ropes goes well beyond naive and far into willful stupidity.

The bottom line is this: we are almost certainly fucked. I say fight them despite this because there is really nothing much to lose. Most will not, of course, as they cleave to what small crumbs are left them. I will do what I will do and the rest of the world can burn for all I care. Trying to get even small population of people interested in liberty such that they act coherently has proven impossible. For the most part, humans respond to one thing with consistency: brute force. The elite know this and that is why they have been successful with their little stick and carrot routine. I am not even sure the race is worth saving, to be frank.


Do you believe the police state, like the banking system, can indefinitely spiral toward distopia or is their a breaking point where people lose faith in the whole system?

At this point the technological leverage is so great the rulers dictate what the average man thinks. Being hopelessly predictable and corrupt, the bulk of the race is readily manipulated this way and that. When small pockets pose an inconvenience that annoys, well... that is what depleted uranium and high explosives are for.

Hope evaporates daily and I suspect we are past the tipping point so now it is nothing but a waiting game to see what new synthetic crisis is paraded before us, or rained upon our heads. Do whatever you feel is right for you. Be brave and die fighting them or cower in your basement. I do not think any of it is going to make much difference. Part of me says fight no matter what - the other part says, "fuck it". Maybe I've just had a tough day... who knows.


I believe the latter.

And so what? What will those people do when a manufactured plague is released amongst them? Burn a few cars? Smash a couple of windows? Kill a few police before they succumb and die? If the stakes include global political control and one is actually serious about achieving the goal, you'd better bet your ass that the willingness to kill by the carton is an absolute prerequisite in the event things take a funny turn.

Noble Savage
06-11-2012, 08:20 PM
how many freedoms are sacrificed for comfort?

Travlyr
06-11-2012, 08:23 PM
How can a violently enforced monopoly on dispute mediation be benign, while other violently enforced monopolies are not?

If it is fair, the market will choose it. And if it is able to be auctioned off for favor it will be.

Also, in common parlance an "ounce of gold" is actually 1.09714 ounces of pot.In my opinion. It should be 1 for 1. 1.00000 = 1.00000.

kuckfeynes
06-11-2012, 08:41 PM
In my opinion. It should be 1 for 1. 1.00000 = 1.00000.

Ah, but there's the rub. Who's opinion do we go with? In a scenario where two parties disagree and do things two different ways, each believing their own way to be superior, what is worse? A lack of standardization or the coercion required to force one side to comply?

RickyJ
06-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Live free or die should be are motto. What good is life if you are not free, you are just a slave, to be treated as your master sees fit. If you can accept that, then you deserve your fate.

ProIndividual
06-11-2012, 09:13 PM
No. I do not expect to be free in my lifetime.

But all slaves who opposed slavery weren't free in theirs either. What's important is that we free the human race a little more each generation.

And in the sense I would sooner die on my feet than live on my knees...I'm already free. The fear of reprisal is the real prison in this world. States come and go, but death is inevitable.

thoughtomator
06-11-2012, 10:12 PM
The hard question is how do you prevent a free people from spawning a generation like the Baby Boomers who sell their own posterity into bondage in exchange for baubles?

flynn
06-11-2012, 10:14 PM
I expect within 15 years, the two major political parties will be composed of anarcho-capitalist libertarians and minarchist libertarians in the western countries.

Gumba of Liberty
06-11-2012, 10:42 PM
No. It's called "tightening the noose". To think that those in power are somehow on the ropes goes well beyond naive and far into willful stupidity.

The bottom line is this: we are almost certainly fucked. I say fight them despite this because there is really nothing much to lose. Most will not, of course, as they cleave to what small crumbs are left them. I will do what I will do and the rest of the world can burn for all I care. Trying to get even small population of people interested in liberty such that they act coherently has proven impossible. For the most part, humans respond to one thing with consistency: brute force. The elite know this and that is why they have been successful with their little stick and carrot routine. I am not even sure the race is worth saving, to be frank.

"Tightening the Noose" has been tried in the past but has always failed in the end. To believe those in power are somehow invincible is equally stupid folly.


At this point the technological leverage is so great the rulers dictate what the average man thinks. Being hopelessly predictable and corrupt, the bulk of the race is readily manipulated this way and that. When small pockets pose an inconvenience that annoys, well... that is what depleted uranium and high explosives are for.

Hope evaporates daily and I suspect we are past the tipping point so now it is nothing but a waiting game to see what new synthetic crisis is paraded before us, or rained upon our heads. Do whatever you feel is right for you. Be brave and die fighting them or cower in your basement. I do not think any of it is going to make much difference. Part of me says fight no matter what - the other part says, "fuck it". Maybe I've just had a tough day... who knows.

We all have tough days. Tipping point or not, I do not think the elite is as organized as you let on. Believe it or not, the elite are also hopelessly predictable and corrupt. They may have technology but so do we.


And so what? What will those people do when a manufactured plague is released amongst them? Burn a few cars? Smash a couple of windows? Kill a few police before they succumb and die? If the stakes include global political control and one is actually serious about achieving the goal, you'd better bet your ass that the willingness to kill by the carton is an absolute prerequisite in the event things take a funny turn.

It's a tough call, maybe people will: A. Pull a few hundred billion out of the banking system? A. Lock and load their 500 million weapons? C. Buy up all the gold and silver they can find to de-leverage the financial system and protect there assets?

I agree that the elites have incredible power. I hope we can get together and have a few beers laughin about it one day too, but never forget that the elites are real, tangible people and most of them have never really done anything in their lives. They are like the European Kings of old, born by birth into a system that allows them to rule. They are no more worthy of ruling than same people they pretend to rule. These families are incredibly powerful institutions of paper money but they will fail... eventually.

thoughtomator
06-11-2012, 10:51 PM
IMHO biowarfare is way too uncontrollable for the elites to be down with that... they have so many other ways to kill people off, they won't risk loosing a disease only to catch it themselves.

Now a biowarfare scare, complete with media hysteria to cause full-blown panic and misinform people of the situation and risks, that I wouldn't put beyond them at all. The real deal is far too likely to come visit them in their own homes to be worth it.

Keith and stuff
06-12-2012, 12:51 AM
Live free or die should be are motto. What good is life if you are not free, you are just a slave, to be treated as your master sees fit. If you can accept that, then you deserve your fate.

It is my motto and even my political philosophy. I'm working smart and hard to try to become free before I die. I voted with my feet and am part of a concentrated effort to make actually positive change towards bringing about a free society. I am try for liberty in my lifetime. Will it happen? I'm not sure but if it does happen anywhere in the world in my lifetime, I think it will happen in New Hampshire, the only place in the world where a decent sized effort to bring about liberty is happening in the world.

noneedtoaggress
06-12-2012, 01:40 AM
Lol, some real pessimists in this thread. Maybe it's got something to do with the trouble the RP grassroots is dealing with lately ;P.

Yeah, shit is shitty, and I fully expect it to get a lot worse before it gets better. It seems that's what it takes to get people to wake the hell up.
To be honest I was pretty pessimistic up until I really started learning about the ideas behind Ron's message. Orwell's "boot stamping on a human face" seemed pretty accurate.

But now? Hell, I'm an optimist. Centralized power is and will continue to break down because it doesn't work, and I see the internet as a gamechanger. Just the fact that we are discussing this, right here, right now is amazing and planting seeds for the future. I don't even really know who any of you are. Ron wouldn't even have such a large, dedicated following, if it weren't for the internet.

Decentralization is the future. It's precisely why the internet is so empowering. It may not be the short term future when it comes to government, but it's rapidly approaching.

One of the things that I find solace in is the fact that ultimately the future really is unpredictable and things can change drastically at any point. Look at the Berlin wall or the collapse of the USSR. When it happens it's rapid. There may be warning signs but people are always caught by surprise. And with the rapid pace of technological change, it's only going to be a catalyst toward social change. Just the fact that we understand how unsustainable the situation we're in really is, and understand the very real possibility of collapse is really a precursor of sorts. It's already happening, and the establishment is going to fight tooth and nail to keep things tinkering and chugging along as best they can, until it's perfectly and abundantly clear to just about everyone that the systems we live under are fundamentally broken and society needs to reorganize.


The great mass of people are incapable of realizing that in economic life nothing is permanent except change. They regard the existing state of affairs as eternal; as it has been so shall it always be.


The actual world is a world of permanent change. Population figures, tastes, and wants, the supply of factors of production and technological methods are in a ceaseless flux. In such a state of affairs there is need for a continuous adjustment of production to the change in conditions.


In the universe there is never and nowhere stability and immobility. Change and transformation are essential features of life. Each state of affairs is transient; each age is an age of transition. In human life there is never calm and repose. Life is a process, not a perseverance in a status quo.


It has always been the task of the new generation to provoke changes.

I remember reading a blog from a young Egyptian soon after the Tunisian uprising and just at the cusp of the Egyptian uprising:


I have to admit that I felt a little defeated when I saw how effectively they’d sealed the area. I couldn’t walk thirty meters in any direction without being harassed by a Mubarak subordinate.

The protest began spontaneously at about two forty-five on one of the side streets. I’d been there since 10 am and was growing pretty despondent until I heard the commotion. At this point, I didn’t care how big the protest was I just wanted to vent some frustration; I am a young Arab, after all.

A group of about thirty men broke through a police cordon and about fifty of us joined them right away. That group quickly swelled to several hundred men and women. And an hour later, there were thousands of us. At various times over the course of the next four hours, I experienced a total failure in my ability to synthesize events around me. Was this really Mubarak’s Egypt? Was this really the spot where I’d been hounded by mukhabarat that morning? Right before I left, I climbed up on top of a police booth to get a better view. Someone said that I should get down, and I asked why. He didn’t have an answer for me.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/01/today-in-cairo-protesters-rundown-egyptian-riot-police.html

Everywhere you look established power structures are struggling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTMFXgf95c) to compete with the future and their own mistakes which they've only been able to sustain due to the power that's slipping through their fingers. They only have a vicious cycle of collapse to look forward to, though they're going to try their hardest to hold it all together.

I remember Ron's 2008 run and the disappointment and the flat out MISERY I felt when Obama was elected and everyone was absolutely GUSHING and drooling over him like he was seriously the second coming of Christ. Liberty had no place in that world as far as I could see. Now when I look back I'm pretty amazed at all the crazy things that have happened in just those years since his first run. Off the top of my head we saw Wikileaks, Occupy (and to a lesser extent the TEA party), the Arab Spring. Those are all examples of movement away from the status quo. The liberty movement has grown quite nicely, and people have generally become pretty disillusioned with Obama.

But the first thing I really learned was that liberty, growth, progress all start from within. You have to look at yourself and be willing to change and live the change you want to see, and articulate it to others.

The status quo really comes down to a mass delusion. Our job is to wake people the hell up so that it can dissolve.

And the more it crumbles, the more people begin to wipe the sleep from their eyes and question whether they're really just living in some increasingly nightmarish dream.

Travlyr
06-12-2012, 04:09 AM
Ah, but there's the rub. Who's opinion do we go with? In a scenario where two parties disagree and do things two different ways, each believing their own way to be superior, what is worse? A lack of standardization or the coercion required to force one side to comply?

Lack of standardization in my world. I don't want you to be able to sell me 25,000 sq. ft. of land and call it an acre. I want remedy.

Travlyr
06-12-2012, 04:13 AM
No. I do not expect to be free in my lifetime.

But all slaves who opposed slavery weren't free in theirs either. What's important is that we free the human race a little more each generation.

And in the sense I would sooner die on my feet than live on my knees...I'm already free. The fear of reprisal is the real prison in this world. States come and go, but death is inevitable.

Why are you still misquoting me in your signature? Are you 7 years old?

VoluntaryAmerican
06-12-2012, 07:03 AM
Do you expect to be free at some point in your lifetime?

Expectation has never and will never give anyone their freedom.

You must DEMAND it.

PaulConventionWV
06-12-2012, 08:04 AM
Do you expect to be free at some point in your lifetime?

If so, how do you expect that will happen, and in what timeframe? If not, what do you think is getting in the way of your freedom?

I'll be free tomorrow night. What did you have in mind?

Oh, wait...

PaulConventionWV
06-12-2012, 08:16 AM
How can a violently enforced monopoly on dispute mediation be benign, while other violently enforced monopolies are not?

If it is fair, the market will choose it. And if it is able to be auctioned off for favor it will be.

Also, in common parlance an "ounce of gold" is actually 1.09714 ounces of pot.

The market chose government. That's what people wanted.

Travlyr
06-12-2012, 08:22 AM
How can a violently enforced monopoly on dispute mediation be benign, while other violently enforced monopolies are not?

If it is fair, the market will choose it. And if it is able to be auctioned off for favor it will be.

Also, in common parlance an "ounce of gold" is actually 1.09714 ounces of pot.

Where do they get their authority to violate the Fourth Amendment?

HigherVision
06-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Do you expect to be free at some point in your lifetime?

No

jmdrake
06-12-2012, 09:26 AM
Freedom is a state of mind

+rep. I'm already free.

Meatwasp
06-12-2012, 09:27 AM
Rapidly.

A society where you are under 24/7 surveillance, where more people are in prison than any other place on the earth, where cops can kill you or your pets with impunity, where the president can claim executive authority to kill anybody he wants, on his say so alone, including US citizens, where you will lose your home if you fail to pay government rents, where government steals a chunk of your income before you even see it, where everything down to light bulbs and toilets is subject to federal regulation, where 10 to possibly as much as 30 percent of people on death row are innocent, where speech is only allowed at certain political functions inside heavily armed "free speech" zones, where non compliance with hundreds of thousands of federal regulations can result in prison terms, where all that and ten paragraphs more is happening every day, you cannot in any kind of way think that you are living in any sort of a free society.

Very true

pcosmar
06-12-2012, 09:32 AM
I am Free.

However I may be imprisoned or killed for exercising that freedom.
I take a tactical approach to the exercise of my freedom. Simply a personal choice.

kuckfeynes
06-12-2012, 10:06 AM
The market chose government. That's what people wanted.

That's an oxymoron. No market forces are required to point a gun at someone. Did the market choose Hitler?

kuckfeynes
06-12-2012, 10:17 AM
Lack of standardization in my world. I don't want you to be able to sell me 25,000 sq. ft. of land and call it an acre. I want remedy.

I'd suggest doing your due diligence on whom you buy land from. Get references and don't enter into contracts with individuals who have no references or social proof. That's good advice even with a violently enforced monopoly on dispute resolution. And without it you'd have even more choice.


Where do they get their authority to violate the Fourth Amendment?

Where do they get the authority to construct a system of violence and coercion such that a Fourth Amendment is necessary?
The mere fact the the Bill of Rights exists and is ignored proves that government is inherently abusive and will not be restrained by such formalities.

Noble Savage
06-12-2012, 10:37 AM
Freedom is a state of mind

I like to say it like this...freedom not a right of the state but the right state of mind

the biggest threat to freedom isn't a man its a number our SSN socialist slave number binds us all by the balls from cradle to grave.

a lot of people are happy to be told what to do, how to live, its easy. You have to think to make your own choices and most Americants just aren't up to it

shane77m
06-12-2012, 10:51 AM
Rapidly.

A society where you are under 24/7 surveillance, where more people are in prison than any other place on the earth, where cops can kill you or your pets with impunity, where the president can claim executive authority to kill anybody he wants, on his say so alone, including US citizens, where you will lose your home if you fail to pay government rents, where government steals a chunk of your income before you even see it, where everything down to light bulbs and toilets is subject to federal regulation, where 10 to possibly as much as 30 percent of people on death row are innocent, where speech is only allowed at certain political functions inside heavily armed "free speech" zones, where non compliance with hundreds of thousands of federal regulations can result in prison terms, where all that and ten paragraphs more is happening every day, you cannot in any kind of way think that you are living in any sort of a free society.

When you put it that way the situation is quite depressing.
I might have to post this to Farcebook if you don't mind?

Travlyr
06-12-2012, 10:53 AM
I'd suggest doing your due diligence on whom you buy land from. Get references and don't enter into contracts with individuals who have no references or social proof. That's good advice even with a violently enforced monopoly on dispute resolution. And without it you'd have even more choice.
An acre is a standard. 43560 square feet is an acre. A foot is a standard. 12 inches is a foot. And an inch is a standard. An inch is approximately the length of the first joint of a man's finger. Since not all men's fingers are the same, then an inch had to be standardized on a ruler. Standards are governing documents for trade. 43560 square feet is an acre in all 50 States of the Union. When someone sells me an acre of land I can assume that they are selling me 43560 sq. ft. of land. If they try and cheat me, then I have recourse in a court of law or arbitration.

Government's job is to keep standards static. They do a pretty good job of that except for money. The dollar standard is 371.25 grains of pure silver. America went off that standard in 1861 and again in 1913. Silver dollars still have 371.25 grains of pure silver but most people call a FRN a dollar.



Where do they get the authority to construct a system of violence and coercion such that a Fourth Amendment is necessary?
They take it through brute force because stealing is easier than working. Bullies don't need reasons ... they use violence because it pays big bucks.



The mere fact the the Bill of Rights exists and is ignored proves that government is inherently abusive and will not be restrained by such formalities.
Constitutional government is not the abuser. Government is made up of standards, contract law, and land law. Government is merely documents. Rulers subverted the Constitution to get their authority rule by assuming power they were not granted. They are unconstitutional rulers. They are illegitimate. They call themselves government as a hegelian dialect in order to keep everybody divided. They are not government. They are Khazars.

Counterfeiters must seek and destroy any competition in order to keep their monopoly. Separation of Money and State delivers liberty.

People can only be free by enforcing the rule of law and ending monopoly money.

osan
06-12-2012, 11:45 AM
Lol, some real pessimists in this thread.

It is a great error to confuse realistic assessments of a grim situation with pessimism. To view our circumstance as anything less than grim smacks of either lack of intelligence, a failure to pay attention, poor analytical skills, or a healthy dose of Mr. Head visiting with Mr. Sand.

Noble Savage
06-12-2012, 11:56 AM
Its the feral vs the domesticated the domesticants resent the feral because they are too afraid to leave the comfort of the pen

noneedtoaggress
06-12-2012, 12:33 PM
It is a great error to confuse realistic assessments of a grim situation with pessimism. To view our circumstance as anything less than grim smacks of either lack of intelligence, a failure to pay attention, poor analytical skills, or a healthy dose of Mr. Head visiting with Mr. Sand.

Really? So if someone doesn't agree with the "pessimistic realistic assesment" that:


I am not even sure the race is worth saving, to be frank.

Then they must be some sort of idiot who doesn't pay attention to the world around them and buries their head in the sand, huh?

I don't think anyone said that what we're facing, and currently living for that matter, is anything short of grim. C'mon now.




Also, I heard this after posting last night... pretty on point interview:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2012/06/05/281-secede-from-the-regime/

thoughtomator
06-12-2012, 12:46 PM
I should have posted this way back on the first page of this thread, but better late than never:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

PaulConventionWV
06-12-2012, 01:09 PM
That's an oxymoron. No market forces are required to point a gun at someone. Did the market choose Hitler?

In a way, yes. The people loved him for his power. If the market didn't choose it, then how did it come to be? We seem to view only good things as products of the market, but we never consider the popularity among people of having powerful individuals tell them how to live their lives.

Also, I don't think you know what oxymoron means.

kuckfeynes
06-12-2012, 08:23 PM
I'm not sure you understand what market means... It's not popular opinion. A market requires buyers and sellers, it requires valuation and exchange, and that requires voluntary participation. If you're pointing a gun at someone your roles are no longer buyer and seller -- they are now master and slave. If you say that just because something exists in a certain way that a market must have chosen it, there would literally be no reason to have or use the word at all, because it would be entirely redundant.


Oxymoron: noun, a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true).

"The market chose government" is an oxymoron because one is the antithesis of the other. Government exists to prevent markets from functioning. If I sell Travlyr land and deceive him with non-standard units, but the judge is in my back pocket, he is SOL. He does not have a market to turn to in order to select a mediator that is acceptable to both of us (or our insurance agencies). There is no choice, by design. He can only be voted out every so often, to be replaced by someone susceptible to the same temptations. But, if people could put a value on the service of dispute resolution and mediation, my morally loose judge friends would probably not survive long in their field because, as with any business, reputation is everything. THAT would be a functioning market.

Draco33
06-12-2012, 08:37 PM
We will allways be a slave to the money. So No.

Seraphim
06-12-2012, 08:47 PM
I may be shackled, but a free man, I am. Always and forever more.

phill4paul
06-12-2012, 08:50 PM
The exact moment before I die.

TheBlackPeterSchiff
06-12-2012, 08:53 PM
Nope.

Seraphim
06-12-2012, 08:54 PM
Money is a means to an end. If you desire material, money (VALUE) is required.

If you require a lot of material to satisfy you, you are not a slave to money. You a slave to yourself. You have the choice to evaporate such egotistical desires. Ergo, you are free. Always.


We will allways be a slave to the money. So No.

osan
06-13-2012, 07:41 AM
how many freedoms are sacrificed for comfort?

All of them.

pcosmar
06-13-2012, 08:09 AM
"Two men look out of prison bars
One sees mud, the other stars."
author unknown

I am a free man, living in an un-free land.

you can not cage my mind.
;)