Email idea. Next step.

[wizardwatson]

EDIT: [see post #30 for more nuts and bolts didn't want to junk up OP as still work in progress]

A lot of people are asking what the "next step" is in various ways. Some of those have said we need to "organize" but don't really know what that would entail. I agree that we need to organize and I think that is the critical next step and in this thread I outline how I think we can do this. If you are interested in the movement long term I ask and encourage you to read this thread and if you agree with the general direction of the project to support it by following the "Support this" section instructions below.

Basically the idea is to have a large list of supporter email addresses from which local area coordinators construct a newsletter style email that they send to members in their area. There are, I'm sure, instances where this is being done on a local scale but I'm proposing that this be done in a larger more comprehensive way and with a few differences that I want to explain.

Email

I think email is should be the preferred method of getting information out to supporters. It's ubiquitous (many have it right on their phones) and it makes two-way communication easy compared to trying to communicate through social networks. Not to say social networks aren't useful, but any special scenarios that are more suitably carried out via social networks can be communicated/linked via email.

The list

The list of supporters is the primary asset. There need not be a "master list" that everyone is privy to, but rather local coordinators should maintain their relevant chunk of the lists and collaborate in order to remove any redundancies in the list. There should be multiple coordinators with access to the list so that there isn't a single point of failure with regards to access. Lists can be recorded and maintained on shared web-based documents (google spreadsheets).

Building the list is the initial task and can be done by mining social networks and campaign lists where available and requesting that the supporter opt-in.

Content and archiving

Local coordinators are responsible for generating the email content and also with deciding what a suitable number of emails per unit of time should be. Regular supporters can notify coordinators for any local relevant info to be included in the newsletter.

In addition to generating the content, each email should be recorded and published to a shared, public email archive document (google docs segmented by location). This will allow members to view old emails and events outside their area and will allow coordinators to see how other coordinators are constructing content. Having email content archived in this way will cut down on spam and will allow supporters and coordinators to learn from one another on how to better construct future content. This mechanism will also be useful for preserving and promoting links and linked-to content.

Larger supporter base

The primary purpose of a consolidated newsletter is to have as many eyeballs as possible viewing content most relevant to them. However, with the wide spectrum of beliefs and ideologies within the movement it would be difficult and perhaps impossible to know what local information is most relevant to members on their portion of the list. With this in mind I propose a different approach: Share the list.

I see no reason why supporters and activists of different political stripes should not have access to the same local information that someone of a different ideology has. I view the newsletter as a form of media and collaboration on content would be a benefit to all sides of the conversation. Since there is no way really to draw a line around who is in and who is out with respect to the movement, broadening the activist base would lead to more civil communication and would increase the number of crossovers.

So the list is not something to be owned by one faction of the overall movement, but is a comprehensive list of political and grassroots activists from across the political spectrum. The focus is on local people and local info and it's my position that the more eyes and ears that are on the list the better.

Summary

So those are the main points. It's my position that this is what the movement needs, a fixed point to focus our attention on. Allow the grassroots to have its own medium of communication that we can contribute to and collaborate on. Have our own lists that aren't owned by a campaign or some social network. Archive the propagated content so we have a record to reference and learn from. Share the list by encouraging all activists from all stripes to join the list and participate in posting local content and info. Ultimately this project is about getting the grass roots on the same page, getting the right information to the right people, and using transparency to allow the grassroots to learn from one another.

My strategy

In the interest of keeping the OP short I haven't mentioned various objections and faults people might see with this project so I encourage anyone with an opinion one way or the other to contribute to the thread and I'll chime in on those points (it's spam, invasion of privacy, need a website, etc.). This is the fourth thread I've posted on this idea (still evolving) and I've answered a few criticisms on those but I don't mind repeating myself (see this (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?377331-Uniting-our-supporters.-A-simple-strategy.), this (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?377730-The-Grassroots-Connect-Initiative) and this (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?377992-Who-has-the-lists)).

One point that's been mentioned more than once is that I have some agenda with "getting the list". So this section is for me to explain exactly what it is I'm trying to do.

I've actually had this idea for compiling a list of grassroots supporters for some time. Lately, it has become a focus of mine because I'm having a very hard time making any headway in this direction here in Kansas, so my guess is that it is probably the same story for others out there (which some have voiced on these forums). Problem is I can't really get people on some tiny list in Kansas as everyone will think I'm just another spammer. Even if they grasp the overall idea and see the benefit, it will no doubt seem futile. So I'm thinking this can and maybe should be done as a national effort. It isn't that I want access to a "national list", there shouldn't be a national list (as explained above), but I think there's an opportunity here for this to be a national effort.

So the strategy as I see it is to frame this project as a national effort and get supporters from across the country to embrace it. Even with a few hundred supporters I think the idea will gain credibility. At first perhaps just on forums like this, and then that credibility might snowball and spill over to the local arena and it will be easier for me to reach out to local people and have them on board if I have a larger effort to reference. Also, as a national effort I think it will boost morale to watch the list grow.

This is why I'm posting this on the forums. There may not be a lot of "grassroots" things we can do from the forums but I think this is one of those things. It's about building a consensus on a viable strategy for moving forward after this election cycle and I think this consensus building could work around a strategy like this.

Support this

If you are interested in supporting this the threshhold for participation is very low. Just email me your email, name, city and state (or PM me that info here on the forum). When I get these emails/PM's I'll update the amount below.

My email: wizardwatson at gmail dot com

Number of supporters: 2

I will be the sole compiler of the initial email list. I will not spam you and likely the first email you get will be notifying you that your email is being shared with coordinator x or an email detailing what the next steps are. So you'll always know who is managing your email and will know who to contact to opt-out of the system.

The goal at this stage is just to build support on the forums and perhaps, if there is substantial forum support, I'll ask for the thread to be stickied. If we get say a couple hundred interested from the various forums this is posted on we can start working on broader strategies and get the shared lists and email archive documents going. So for now the best way to show support is to opt-in to the list (you can always opt-out later, no risk) and voice your support on the thread. We all post on these forums, many times concerning things that have nothing to do with the movement, so I hope this idea interests you and you'll become part of it.

[LinuxJedi]

Why centralized? Why not just use mailing list software (such as mailman), and allow people to post to the lists within their communities. Local lists might need to be moderated, and it would be a good idea to have some appeal process in case of lists being usurped by trolls / whackos.

Just a simple setup of mailman would suffice. I would also suggest that mailing lists based only on region is not enough, legal mailing lists, technical lists and so on are also important to allow collaboration amongst people with different skills to offer the movement.

[wizardwatson]

Why centralized? Why not just use mailing list software (such as mailman), and allow people to post to the lists within their communities. Local lists might need to be moderated, and it would be a good idea to have some appeal process in case of lists being usurped by trolls / whackos.

Just a simple setup of mailman would suffice. I would also suggest that mailing lists based only on region is not enough, legal mailing lists, technical lists and so on are also important to allow collaboration amongst people with different skills to offer the movement.

Mailman seems like it could definitely be a candidate for running something like this. First I've heard of it, but at first glance looks very versatile.

Yes, local list content would need to be moderated and I've thought about having an appeals process as well. That's why I think it's important to view the idea more like an organization than simply a list. And yes, other groupings/lists would ultimately have to exist in order to keep the overall organization functioning. This could include things like a list for national and state coordinator moderation hierarchy, a web team list for those working on promoting the organization and web based information about it, etc.

So it's not about "centralizing" (not sure if I used that word) it's about having a consensus as I said on where we're getting our information "from" and posting our information "to".

Anyway, you're a step ahead of me. Until we build a consensus around the idea in general, until enough people see this as a strategic step forward and are willing to participate it now at the ground level (you?) we're not going to get the list-building process started to where these organizational and infrastructure issues matter.

[parocks]

I should point out that the ability exists in social networks to send bulk emails, so it isn't either/or - social network or email.

The admin of the social network can send an email to every registered member of the site. Or to a smaller group.

[parocks]

I should add that setting up a social network is REALLY REALLY EASY.

Set up a social network using joomla drupal or any other. Build in all the functionalities. Done. If you can't afford the cost of this, which is actually quite small, don't take on that responsibility.

Why would google spreadsheets be part of this process. Google is not within anyones control, neither is facebook or meetup.

[LinuxJedi]

Social networks and other things are quite limiting. If you take a look at open source projects (my background) mailman is an essential component, and it generally is used to "ignite" a project. It isn't just a matter of sending an email to a bunch of people... mailman allows people to easily join or leave a list, management is shifted entirely to them.

I agree that the idea requires traction, I think that "the movement" has a further direction to take into using a tool such as redmine (I have posted on this previously) to help coordinate a highly distributed effort. It's easy to lose track of small details, and in something as large as reforming the GOP party... the small details are absolutely vital to winning at higher levels.

Setting up mailman is pretty quick to do, and see if the idea gets traction. Might be able to find somewhere already that provides setup servers.

[wizardwatson]

I should point out that the ability exists in social networks to send bulk emails, so it isn't either/or - social network or email.

The admin of the social network can send an email to every registered member of the site. Or to a smaller group.


I should add that setting up a social network is REALLY REALLY EASY.

Set up a social network using joomla drupal or any other. Build in all the functionalities. Done. If you can't afford the cost of this, which is actually quite small, don't take on that responsibility.

Why would google spreadsheets be part of this process. Google is not within anyones control, neither is facebook or meetup.

Google spreadsheets doesn't "need" to be a part of the process. I'm only suggesting as it's easy and can be made secure. It's a mechanism to accomplish the idea I've proposed of managing lists the same as mailman (mentioned above) solves the problem of maintaining a list and the same as your ideas to use joomla or drupal solves the problem of emailing groups.

Yes, all these mechanisms are easy to set up. I'm an app/web developer by profession so I can attest to that.

But this isn't the problem I'm trying to solve. The problem is how do we create a consensus on a local portal for local information that has the momentum and gravity to draw in supporters and make the local mission worthwhile to people. I am thinking that we make the "local mission" a national effort. That's what I'm saying. I don't think these technical matters of what software to use or which social platform people in Topeka, KS should adopt are the primary issues.

The question is simply this: What are we doing wrong as a movement that is preventing us from growing a list of local supporters and bringing them together for the purpose of sharing information?

It could perhaps be phrased better but that's what I'm driving at. We have all these tools but they aren't solving the main problem of having a consensus on how to operate at the local level. I get that some people think or many think that the solution is to concede to a "every man for himself" build your own local list solution, but I'm questioning that stance, as I don't think it is working.

[Paul Fan]

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If you have information you want to get to people, create a website and post it there. Offer to send the posted information on a regular (weekly? twice-monthly?) basis to anyone who signs up. If the information is useful, people will sign up to save themselves the hassle of rechecking the website. No one is going to sign up to an email list that might just spam them with info they don't want. Mailman sounds like it might help, but the key is proving you have useful information before asking people to sign up.

In short: build it and they will come.

[LinuxJedi]

I think that a major problem in this movement is fragmentation. In particular, there is Daily Paul which is a parallel universe to Ron Paul Forums. There are mailing lists here, meetups there, a local site here, another PAC there. United we stand, divided we fall.

I can see the value in a "central hub" of activity where people come together just to get work done. RPF and Daily Paul can discuss whatever is going on, but that is discussion, a central hub is for action. I'm not sure about newsletters that have to go through extensive moderation before posting. I think that instead, a local discussion group is essential. There are many local discussions that aren't relevant to larger districts. However, it does happen that, say, organizing a state requires coordination of counties, which requires coordination of local chapters. This type of organization is what is really needed.

I think that "getting a list of supporters" misses the point. The key part is to "have them sign up" and to join something that allows them to get to know their neighbors, chat, and coordinate locally. How many of us honestly want to get unsolicited email?

I agree that this isn't just a technological problem... that part is easy. It's a matter of how to really coordinate effort, which is more fundamental. What we want is some sort of "fabric" which brings people together to get involved. People go to various sites to chat, hang out... but there is some focal point for all supporters. Does that make sense? With open source software, it would be something like SVN and mailing lists... these bring people together to really work, but other things bring people together to chat and hang out...

[parocks]

You can integrate mailman with joomla, or a mailman / joomla bridge. Or mailman / drupal. Or, whatever works - integrate a satisfactory mail component with a satisfactory social network.


Social networks and other things are quite limiting. If you take a look at open source projects (my background) mailman is an essential component, and it generally is used to "ignite" a project. It isn't just a matter of sending an email to a bunch of people... mailman allows people to easily join or leave a list, management is shifted entirely to them.

I agree that the idea requires traction, I think that "the movement" has a further direction to take into using a tool such as redmine (I have posted on this previously) to help coordinate a highly distributed effort. It's easy to lose track of small details, and in something as large as reforming the GOP party... the small details are absolutely vital to winning at higher levels.

Setting up mailman is pretty quick to do, and see if the idea gets traction. Might be able to find somewhere already that provides setup servers.

[LinuxJedi]

I am aware of the potential for integration, but why? Sometimes very simple things work better than complicated things. I would be concerned that over-complication of a simple tool would reduce its efficiency.

I don't understand why a social network is an essential part of this?

[parocks]

Google spreadsheets doesn't "need" to be a part of the process. I'm only suggesting as it's easy and can be made secure. It's a mechanism to accomplish the idea I've proposed of managing lists the same as mailman (mentioned above) solves the problem of maintaining a list and the same as your ideas to use joomla or drupal solves the problem of emailing groups.

Yes, all these mechanisms are easy to set up. I'm an app/web developer by profession so I can attest to that.

But this isn't the problem I'm trying to solve. The problem is how do we create a consensus on a local portal for local information that has the momentum and gravity to draw in supporters and make the local mission worthwhile to people. I am thinking that we make the "local mission" a national effort. That's what I'm saying. I don't think these technical matters of what software to use or which social platform people in Topeka, KS should adopt are the primary issues.

The question is simply this: What are we doing wrong as a movement that is preventing us from growing a list of local supporters and bringing them together for the purpose of sharing information?

It could perhaps be phrased better but that's what I'm driving at. We have all these tools but they aren't solving the main problem of having a consensus on how to operate at the local level. I get that some people think or many think that the solution is to concede to a "every man for himself" build your own local list solution, but I'm questioning that stance, as I don't think it is working.

All fair enough. How to create consensus with Libertarians? Good luck with that.

One argument could be made, that RPF and Daily Paul should've stepped up and added features. RPF is basically phpbb with a few add ons. Either drupal or joomla (or another social network) could've been integrated. If that had been done, work could've taken place here or elsewhere. Daily Paul and RPF are about the same size, and do about the same thing. Those sites should be adding the features we need.

[parocks]

I am aware of the potential for integration, but why? Sometimes very simple things work better than complicated things. I would be concerned that over-complication of a simple tool would reduce its efficiency.

I don't understand why a social network is an essential part of this?

Person to person communication. Groups.

[wizardwatson]

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If you have information you want to get to people, create a website and post it there. Offer to send the posted information on a regular (weekly? twice-monthly?) basis to anyone who signs up. If the information is useful, people will sign up to save themselves the hassle of rechecking the website. No one is going to sign up to an email list that might just spam them with info they don't want. Mailman sounds like it might help, but the key is proving you have useful information before asking people to sign up.

In short: build it and they will come.

Yeah, this is the every man for himself approach. I get that. But for some reason that has resulted in fragmentation as LinuxJedi talks about above.

[wizardwatson]

I think that a major problem in this movement is fragmentation. In particular, there is Daily Paul which is a parallel universe to Ron Paul Forums. There are mailing lists here, meetups there, a local site here, another PAC there. United we stand, divided we fall.

I can see the value in a "central hub" of activity where people come together just to get work done. RPF and Daily Paul can discuss whatever is going on, but that is discussion, a central hub is for action. I'm not sure about newsletters that have to go through extensive moderation before posting. I think that instead, a local discussion group is essential. There are many local discussions that aren't relevant to larger districts. However, it does happen that, say, organizing a state requires coordination of counties, which requires coordination of local chapters. This type of organization is what is really needed.

I think that "getting a list of supporters" misses the point. The key part is to "have them sign up" and to join something that allows them to get to know their neighbors, chat, and coordinate locally. How many of us honestly want to get unsolicited email?

I agree that this isn't just a technological problem... that part is easy. It's a matter of how to really coordinate effort, which is more fundamental. What we want is some sort of "fabric" which brings people together to get involved. People go to various sites to chat, hang out... but there is some focal point for all supporters. Does that make sense? With open source software, it would be something like SVN and mailing lists... these bring people together to really work, but other things bring people together to chat and hang out...

This is the spirit of what I'm getting at, you've nailed it. And you're perhaps right that phrasing it "getting a list of supporters" isn't the right way to say it as I am talking about opting-in not just getting a list to spam.

With you and others that have posted on various threads I've posted, I already have a short list of people who see the need for this type of "fabric" as you say. I just don't know, and I've tried, how to put my finger on what exactly is missing but I do see it as a sort of email based list that users have the ability to provide input to and collaborate on what content is going out. We need something bare bones and efficient.

[wizardwatson]

I am aware of the potential for integration, but why? Sometimes very simple things work better than complicated things. I would be concerned that over-complication of a simple tool would reduce its efficiency.

I don't understand why a social network is an essential part of this?

I think it's just a bias people on the internet have. People see social networks as the "hub" of activity when in most cases there is little real work being done through this medium. National campaigns don't operate through social networks, that just augments their primary methods of snail-mail, phone and email.

I think social networks should augment a more basic structure not be the centerpiece. The threshhold of participation is too high for the average person. Email however is familiar to nearly everyone.

[wizardwatson]

I'd be interested to know what ideas all you out there think is the next step. How do we connect with each other and grow the movement?

The campaign is winding down, C4L is a non-event, facebook will likely dry up after the campaign, the meetups are already dormant. What is it that we need to do to sustain our efforts? What is the fabric that's gonna hold us together? It's easy to sit back and wait for someone else to take the first step and jump on board later. It's easy to say "we're decentralized and the free market of ideas will manifest into something". It's easy to say join your local GOP become a precinct leader and have an every man for himself attitude.

But how are we going to keep communications? Who's going to notify who of what's happening? Is it not time for us to have some semblance of organization that isn't solely based on the campaign of the day?

The way I see it, we've had 5 years since this all began. We've latched on to these social networks but I don't think they are doing the job that needs to be done. We've gone from creative grassroots organizing to simply following and commenting on news pieces. How many threads are actually grassroots related? Shouldn't there exist something after all this time that allows supporters to easily plug into it and get the info they need.

Thoughts?

[LinuxJedi]

You can compare with what I had posted myself: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?365717-Organizing-the-Grassroots-A-Job-Board-Redmine...-please-read!

I think that this is a good time to reflect on what went right, and what went wrong... and to learn from it for future campaigns / initiatives. There has been a lot of wasted effort, I think, because people didn't know how to help. It has also been the case that cooperation has been shunned... I think that a number of people used this revolution to inflate their sense of self-worth, and that wasn't the best thing for the movement. It is something that is bound to happen again, but many people used this opportunity to make a buck or to "be better than others".

There has also been this notion that the grassroots has an unlimited purse... not true. It is ironic that we are working so hard to restore leadership back to local levels, but we do not coordinate locally as we should. Chip-ins often make their way to the top pages for what should be a national audience, but there are many valuable local chip-ins that could happen. For instance, people might want to sponsor a debate-watch and discussion in their home town... we need to help people connect to do that as locally as possible.

I'm not sure what the final "solution" is to help coordinate our campaigning, but I have learned a few lessons:

1. A better reputation system is essential. There has to be some way that we can indicate how reliable a person is based on volunteering or actions in real-life. If you have 10 people volunteer to do something, and all of them have credible reputation... you can be pretty assured it will get done.

2. Better means of discussion. Tons of ideas have been buried on these forums... the forums are trying to do something they were never meant to do: organize a revolution. They are good for casual discussion, but how many ideas have been buried in threads that are banished to the depths of the site? There has to be a better way to allow good ideas to "float up" and bad ideas to "sink down".

3. A follow-up on Chip-Ins is essential. Many people give money and want to see what they paid for. I think this will make people want to help financially again, but I also think it is important to know we are not getting scammed. I would be concerned that one person could pose and extract money from the grassroots over and over again.

4. When an election is in full-swing, people will arrive from nowhere. Some legitimately want to help, some want to derail things. We have to find a way to reward people who help out earlier, but also reward those who come later and do a ton of work. We have to find someway to handle an influx of people who don't know how to start, what to do... and aren't proven yet.

A good discussion so far, if we can get some more ideas maybe we can start to figure some things out. I agree that there has to be some form of organization in place, maybe not formally incorporated, but something to help resolve disputes that come up... and to help coordinate a little bit.

[parocks]

This is the spirit of what I'm getting at, you've nailed it. And you're perhaps right that phrasing it "getting a list of supporters" isn't the right way to say it as I am talking about opting-in not just getting a list to spam.

With you and others that have posted on various threads I've posted, I already have a short list of people who see the need for this type of "fabric" as you say. I just don't know, and I've tried, how to put my finger on what exactly is missing but I do see it as a sort of email based list that users have the ability to provide input to and collaborate on what content is going out. We need something bare bones and efficient.

You're starting from a spot where you're completely unknown. In an area where there are already many alternatives. Facebook does exist. Facebook is what most people use already in their day to day lives. People naturally gravitiate to Facebook. In 2008, people used meetup. They still do use meetup. And there's Ronpaulforums, and Daily Paul. And 50 smaller Ron Paul sites. Many of the Ron Paul sites have the community features, the ability to send email features, etc etc etc.

The barrier is that. There are too many already.

This discussion is very similar to 6-9 month old discussions where the topic was "we need to be organized. how do we do this?" There were a lot of those conversations. This conversation is very similar to those conversations.

From a practical standpoint, the way to go is to try to fix the existing sites instead of creating a new one, unless the new one is extremely good, far superior to the existing site, and extremely well funded and/or has a lot of people who want to spend a lot of time doing work to get users in the database.

This is nice thought experiment, where people type ideas about organization and why it is good.

Since we're all here on Ron Paul Forums, the best way to get this organizational site to happen, and for it to work, as opposed to being yet another pointless jerkoffery site is to get Ron Paul Forums to add these features.

[Paul Fan]

Maybe before asking how to connect, we should figure out why. What will happen? Publicizing events is great. Who is planning these events? What is the purpose of the events? I too am trying to figure out the best next step. I've got a theory that local action is needed, both political (e.g., taking over elected offices in towns) and non-political (e.g. starting community groups that take no governmrnt money and could come to supplant government services). What do other people think?

[LinuxJedi]

The point is not "another website", at least to me... not sure the OP's view. I think we need something that is a type of political SVN + Project Management, which I do not believe exists at this moment. Yes, the concept might be fleshed out into a website at the end, but the driving technology would be fairly unique. Collaboration is required at a massive scale, and I don't think that even open-source projects (including the Linux kernel itself) achieve this.

Yes, there is Facebook... there are other websites that have served well to get things this far... but I don't know of any technology (or site) that really would help coordinate at the scale required to transform a country. I think the more ideas that bounce around as to what such a tool would look like, what we are doing right and wrong, the better we are able to prepare for the future.

[parocks]

I'd be interested to know what ideas all you out there think is the next step. How do we connect with each other and grow the movement?

The campaign is winding down, C4L is a non-event, facebook will likely dry up after the campaign, the meetups are already dormant. What is it that we need to do to sustain our efforts? What is the fabric that's gonna hold us together? It's easy to sit back and wait for someone else to take the first step and jump on board later. It's easy to say "we're decentralized and the free market of ideas will manifest into something". It's easy to say join your local GOP become a precinct leader and have an every man for himself attitude.

But how are we going to keep communications? Who's going to notify who of what's happening? Is it not time for us to have some semblance of organization that isn't solely based on the campaign of the day?

The way I see it, we've had 5 years since this all began. We've latched on to these social networks but I don't think they are doing the job that needs to be done. We've gone from creative grassroots organizing to simply following and commenting on news pieces. How many threads are actually grassroots related? Shouldn't there exist something after all this time that allows supporters to easily plug into it and get the info they need.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

You're basically right. But another website isn't gonna help. You put up a website, you think it's great. It might be great, it might suck. Doesn't matter. Because nobody knows it's there. And there are already websites that people use. And you won't get enough traffic to make it worthwhile.

If you have a lot of money, you can possibly buy ronpaulforums. you can possibly buy daily paul. And if you owned one of those websites, you can add the features you want, and it will be successful.

The question is: how does a website become successful when there are already many many websites doing the same basic thing?

The answer is: money. Buy the other, smaller Ron Paul websites. Combine them and roll them up into one with a large user base. Or buy rpf or dp.

[LinuxJedi]

You're basically right. But another website isn't gonna help. You put up a website, you think it's great. It might be great, it might suck. Doesn't matter. Because nobody knows it's there. And there are already websites that people use. And you won't get enough traffic to make it worthwhile.

You could say this about pretty much any website. I think the point is that the website should be an interface to a special tool to help do the coordination, think webapp not website.

[wizardwatson]

[I rearranged your quote a bit]


You're starting from a spot where you're completely unknown. In an area where there are already many alternatives. Facebook does exist. Facebook is what most people use already in their day to day lives. People naturally gravitiate to Facebook. In 2008, people used meetup. They still do use meetup. And there's Ronpaulforums, and Daily Paul. And 50 smaller Ron Paul sites. Many of the Ron Paul sites have the community features, the ability to send email features, etc etc etc.

The barrier is that. There are too many already.

From a practical standpoint, the way to go is to try to fix the existing sites instead of creating a new one, unless the new one is extremely good, far superior to the existing site, and extremely well funded and/or has a lot of people who want to spend a lot of time doing work to get users in the database.

Since we're all here on Ron Paul Forums, the best way to get this organizational site to happen, and for it to work, as opposed to being yet another pointless jerkoffery site is to get Ron Paul Forums to add these features.

I agree that too many sites is the barrier, and I'm totally on board with pimping out RPF with more organizational tools. My point about the newsletter idea though is that we need something more simple, direct and easier for people who aren't internet savvy (or simply don't have the time) to participate in. I'm not really talking about a new website or a new tool but simply taking a step back and looking at what we aren't doing and what we aren't using. I think people are getting caught up in thinking more "organization" exists than there actually is.


This discussion is very similar to 6-9 month old discussions where the topic was "we need to be organized. how do we do this?" There were a lot of those conversations. This conversation is very similar to those conversations.

This is nice thought experiment, where people type ideas about organization and why it is good.

I'm aware of this and I've been a party to these topics over the last five years. These ideas and convos generally get buried because ideas that will actually move us forward ultimately require work and people generally feel someone else will do the work and they can sit on the sidelines and watch and occasionally comment on it.

I've started many "idea" threads and I know they don't work for the most part. It takes effort. You have to convince individuals. Individuals in public forums like this are perhaps the hardest to convince. Especially if you're trying to convince them that they need to do work. It's ironic that we spend so much effort typing and typing and posting and posting and it seems effortless, but whenever we're presented with a path to action immediately there's a resistance. It's psychological. People aren't on here to be active and "grassrootsy" for the most part they are on here and on every other forum to be social.

So yeah, mostly these end up being "thought experiments" because that's the extent to which your average forum poster is willing to commit. So it's no mystery to me why threads like these die or get resistance the way they do. Sending me email and contact info for instance raises all sorts of alarms in people I think, one of which is the idea that I may actually contact them and ask them to share the workload.

[wizardwatson]

Maybe before asking how to connect, we should figure out why. What will happen? Publicizing events is great. Who is planning these events? What is the purpose of the events? I too am trying to figure out the best next step.

Well, in Topeka where I live there is very little that happens on a day to day basis. GOP here has maybe 10 to 15 significant events in a year. Probably in most towns very little at all happens. That's why I talk about expanding the base of activists that we include in the list. Combine everyone's event info in the same newsletter, why not? Liberts, reform, dems, reps, I see no reason to filter event info. If anything I see a lack of local happenings even IF we combined all local political happenings.

Yeah, you need to moderate offensive or spammy info, but I'd be interested myself in knowing all that was happening around me. I might take the time out to go to a dem function if nothing else was happening that week.

[wizardwatson]

The point is not "another website", at least to me... not sure the OP's view. I think we need something that is a type of political SVN + Project Management, which I do not believe exists at this moment. Yes, the concept might be fleshed out into a website at the end, but the driving technology would be fairly unique. Collaboration is required at a massive scale, and I don't think that even open-source projects (including the Linux kernel itself) achieve this.

Yes, there is Facebook... there are other websites that have served well to get things this far... but I don't know of any technology (or site) that really would help coordinate at the scale required to transform a country. I think the more ideas that bounce around as to what such a tool would look like, what we are doing right and wrong, the better we are able to prepare for the future.

I'm not talking about another "site". I'm just trying to solve the problem of getting local supporters familiar with one another and working together. I think there are a lot of roadblocks for individuals to do this from where they are outward and I think some national grassroots organizing is in order to solve this problem. Succeed where C4L failed basically. I'm open to others ideas, I've posted mine.

[Barrex]

Well I was saying this (and more) even before Iowa (you can see my started threads). Most of the problems are obvious and self evident (to me)... but people were/are simply not interested (grassroots section got 5 /generous/ grassroots related threads).....

In short from my "ultimate rant" :o threads (copy/paste summary):


-Could this entire section "Alternatives to Official Campaign" be moved to grassroots and be entirely dedicated to activism,planing and action. Zero news, zero meaningless conversations, zero irrelevant stories.... just 100% activism.
-have active line of communication with other RP sites and exchange ideas. So when there is good idea all can jump on board and help;
If we had little box on homepage called (for example) "action of the day" (1-2 at the time) where people are encouraged to do something productive before posting in meaninges threads:
Example: letters to the Editor of newspapers
All these actions would take less than 1 min and there are so many people here online that it would be significant contribution.Also they are all FREE FAST EASY. Collecting information and -dont see real database of relevant information;
building huge contact database:
-email, faxes etc. of every media (TV,radio,amatuer radio,newspaper, hologram,TV shows,radio shows,every reporter...) in USA.
-there is failure to recruit new people;
-There is serious lack of organization;
-there is lack of coordination;
-there is way too many comments "what you are doing is crap in comparison what I am doing";
-waaaay to many threads created in grassroots central;
-Make it easier for projects to be realised by having links to all projects and short explanation of them in 1 thread (made sticky) or on home page (would be better);
-On homepage there could be box with positive articles that member should click on so that those articles show higher in web searches;
-have 1 or more moderators only for projects....who would give help to people who would realise projects or got ideas;
Are you beeing coordinated in any way?(Remember Ron Pauls words: COALITIONS!)
If not why not?
-Lack of organization;
-Lack of leader/s;
-too few people are involved;
-lack of coordination;
-preparations not done on time;
-money-bomb website problems;
-buy me beer....

I noticed these things after few weeks on this forum. 12-11-2011 was my first attempt to point at them; 01-10-2012 was suprised how things are not organized and ineffective; around 04-17-2012 I became peaceful about it (God give me strenght to change things I can and peace of mind to accept those that I can not.)... peaceful but little sad because this place had great potential....

I had few new Ideas and observations but I see no use in posting them...

EDIT:
***If you decide to look up my threads please dont revive them I consider them dead and I dont want to derail this thread.

[parocks]

Well I was saying this (and more) even before Iowa (you can see my started threads). Most of the problems are obvious and self evident (to me)... but people were/are simply not interested (grassroots section got 5 /generous/ grassroots related threads).....

In short from my "ultimate rant" :o threads (copy/paste summary):



I noticed these things after few weeks on this forum. 12-11-2011 was my first attempt to point at them; 01-10-2012 was suprised how things are not organized and ineffective; around 04-17-2012 I became peaceful about it (God give me strenght to change things I can and peace of mind to accept those that I can not.)... peaceful but little sad because this place had great potential....

I had few new Ideas and observations but I see no use in posting them...

EDIT:
***If you decide to look up my threads please dont revive them I consider them dead and I dont want to derail this thread.

Yes, by and large, we suck.

One example - there's a very common theory here that if we ENJOY doing something, it's a good thing to do.

Watch for the word ENJOY. That's a big red flag right there.

I could type and type. Epic fail does not necessarily lose to win here.
I suspect many here are trolls, more than one would think.

[parocks]

Well, in Topeka where I live there is very little that happens on a day to day basis. GOP here has maybe 10 to 15 significant events in a year. Probably in most towns very little at all happens. That's why I talk about expanding the base of activists that we include in the list. Combine everyone's event info in the same newsletter, why not? Liberts, reform, dems, reps, I see no reason to filter event info. If anything I see a lack of local happenings even IF we combined all local political happenings.

Yeah, you need to moderate offensive or spammy info, but I'd be interested myself in knowing all that was happening around me. I might take the time out to go to a dem function if nothing else was happening that week.

I'm in Maine. I'm not interested in losing the plot. I know that Ron Paul supporters are on state committee for my county, and I'm in touch with them. I've offered to help them, and want to be in the loop for things like county committee votes. I'm not all that interested in going to a lot of meetings, but I do want to go to the important ones.

Point being. Hierarchical structure. Based on Geography.

Maine is likely the easiest state out there. Small, and a lot of Ron Paul people there.

Would like to avoid situations where people come on here saying things like "I'm in state X, the election is tomorrow, and I'm completely clueless".

Each state should have a leader. That leader should have a list. The data on that list should be on a website. State / County / Town. We should be to tell anybody - check that website - be in contact with your town, county, state leader for instructions.

[wizardwatson]

More nuts and bolts [UPDATED 06-07-12 CHANGED EMAIL GROUP IDEA TO GOOGLE GROUP]

Basically I envision the system working with 5 basic documents. One is the contact list which should include at a minimum name, email, city and state. County, phone, and other data could be added but I'd say it doesn't really matter at the initial stage. Two is a organizational document explaining what the project is and how to participate. A basic instruction manual on what we're doing/trying to do and how to participate. Three is a "map". This would be THE go to document for supporters to find out all the information they'd want/need to know for what's happening, who's who and where to participate and discuss. Four is an archive document of all the emails that have been blasted out to supporters. Five is a log book of who is doing what and will be internal to the committees to basically record rep and will be used to replace people in the committees who are inactive.

The committees

The whole thing will hinge on the committee. It will be the basic unit of the organization and eventually each geographic area will have a committee. At first we just need one national committee of say 10 or so people. These people should be "web warriors" in that all they really do is maintain the above mentioned web documents, answer emails, and email supporters summaries of what's happening locally/currently. It would simply be a google group (mailing list). Whenever someone wants to join the list they email the committee. When someone wants to promote a project they email the committee. When an email needs to be propagated out to supporters someone in the committee uses the contact list and sends it out.

So you want to join the list, you email the committee. Someone on the group replys to all "i got this" that person updates the contact list and sends a "done" email to the group after responding to the original supporter and the item is deleted. Same for a project, someone from the committee updates the "map" and after its handled and supporter is notified item is deleted.

[ADDED 06/07/12] This scenario can easily be done using a google group. The committee sets up a google group and invites committee members to join. Only can join the group via invite. All the posts remain private but anyone can email the group (using the groups email address) and create the post/action item. Committee members take responsibility for an item with an "i got it" post after making sure they are the only one handling that item (see logbook description below). Having this group makes it to where the supporter can be assured that someone is handling their item and that it will be handled quickly.

In Gmail this could be structured as follows: Someone from the committee has an alias email address that supporters email, say member+natcom1@gmail.com. That's the email supporters use. That address has a filter that forwards to all members of the group. Members of the group take responsibility for the item by a "I got it" reply all email and a follow up one after the task is complete. In this way there's redundancy and the supporter can be assured that someone will take action. When you just email one person they may be away for however long and the feedback loop might be too long.

The map

There needs to be one central document where all the important info can be recorded and linked to. This document could be a google doc that all members of the committee can update. Things could be broken down as header info and events/projects/people/information broken down by area. Header info would be links to the organizational document, and would have links to drill down to other map documents for specific areas maintained by respective local committees. The header would also have the email addresses for the committees so members know where to send information to. The body of the document would be project/event/people/information SUMMARIES, not all the information. The summaries should simply state date, status, description, and a link to a forum or other website/network where the details can be found. When too many projects exist and are outdated or inactive they can be archived (link to archives on map doc).

Email and email archive and contact list

The actual emails sent to supporters should include actionable items that are important and current. It's the committees job to view the map and pick out things that are actionable/notable, perhaps some brief descriptions of local news items (but limit this) and meta-info about how this project is going, how many members/committees etc. All these emails should be recorded in an archive document so supporters can play catch up and view info that might be outside their area. Again, SUMMARIES and LINKS, not giant emails describing everything, let the supporter decide what they want to drill down to. When supporters are actually to be emailed someone from the committee takes responsibility and imports (this is Gmail way) the list into a contact group and then sends it, simple to do. Doesn't have to be the same person every time it's not difficult importing emails into a group in gmail.

Organization document

Like I said this is just the advertising and instructional manual for this project. This task I'm going to spearhead. I'll be on the national committee and people with feedback or improvement ideas can email the committee and then the doc can be updated/expanded.

The logbook

Committees should all have a logbook where they can update how much time they've spent doing work in say a weeks time. This will be a good barometer to know who is doing what and inactive committee members can be replaced. Nothing personal but to be on the committee means to do work, if you don't have time for that someone who does needs to be in your place.

[Added 06/7/12] Another function of the logbook is to make sure tasks aren't being duplicated by committee members. Before a committee member begins a task they enter it into the logbook (date, senders email, subject). Since it's a shared doc the committee member will know/see if someone else is trying to do the same task, only when you're sure you're the only one handling it will you send out the "got it" email.

Projects and links

It's important to point out that the committees and their members are NOT project organizers. They are informational and communication agents. If you or someone else has a project they should notify the committee to get it part of the map. The map should link to say a forum post. That forum post should have contacts listed for that project organizer/coordinator. It's the committees job to propagate info about events and projects that are taking place NOT TO HANDLE RSVPS.

It's my feeling that all these projects and event info should link to discussion boards. Even if its an election campaign. Let the discussion board link to more drilled down info like the candidates website, who to RSVP, etc. This way from receiving an email about a project users are only 2 or 3 clicks away from participating and discussing and aren't blasted with a page worth of text via an email. For important events/projects it probably would be good to send the email to RSVP to with the summary as many people (who use their phone for email) might want to get involved but don't have direct access to the web.

Going forward

Like I said, initially just one national committee, I think 10 or so people could handle a significant amount of information and when it becomes too much we split it off into regions at first and then state by state. The map document is the hub though for linking and directing people to the right address to send the info and join the list.

This is the basic outline I see, it's achievable and simple enough for everyone to see how it works. We don't need a "leader" or a president or a corporation. We do however need people to do the work. I see a lot of potential for all us web warriors to make up these committees considering how much effort we expend online doing very little in the direction of liberty. I'm working on cleaning up the documentation and ironing out the details (still a work in progress) but I think this is the path we need to take so I'm trying to stay focused and committed long term.

I'm going to form this initial committee and when I get the documentation together and an initial list of volunteers who are willing to spend a few hours a week working on this and get the documents shared and put up, I'm going to go more hardcore into pushing it out and asking for stickies and blasting out to meetups/facebook and whatnot. Still not at that point yet. Again feedback is appreciated and let me know if you'd like to help and in what capacity, I've got a short list right now and I'm not playing email tag with everyone yet but I'm getting there.

[wizardwatson]

Well I was saying this (and more) even before Iowa (you can see my started threads). Most of the problems are obvious and self evident (to me)... but people were/are simply not interested (grassroots section got 5 /generous/ grassroots related threads).....

In short from my "ultimate rant" :o threads (copy/paste summary):



I noticed these things after few weeks on this forum. 12-11-2011 was my first attempt to point at them; 01-10-2012 was suprised how things are not organized and ineffective; around 04-17-2012 I became peaceful about it (God give me strenght to change things I can and peace of mind to accept those that I can not.)... peaceful but little sad because this place had great potential....

I had few new Ideas and observations but I see no use in posting them...

EDIT:
***If you decide to look up my threads please dont revive them I consider them dead and I dont want to derail this thread.

I agree with most of your observations. However I think the solution is to put forward ideas to solve the problems that are more direct and clear and make sense to people. Yes lack of organization is obvious but the cure is not. I think that's what frustrates people. We know we can do better but what do we rally around? What is the "next step"? Yes we all want to be creative and independent but at the same time we know we need marching orders and we need to do mundane stuff. Once we have something functionable that lots of people are contributing to, then we can all spread our wings so to speak

I'm in the same boat as you are. I see the problems, the inefficiencies, the wasted effort, the constant noise of irrelevant posts and threads, and all the rest of it. All I can say is we have to keep looking for a way out. Don't give up. There are other people on here, I would say hundreds on this forum alone, that see the potential and are looking for a way forward that capitalizes on the assets we have right now (a large online community). This project is ultimately about connecting with those people and showing them a template of what could work. And not just that "it" could work but that "it" is something that fills a critical need in the movement.

I'm no visionary, I'm just someone who's been thinking about this for a while now and I think I have a good idea. It's not perfect and its not even finely tuned yet but I think I'm barking up the right tree, and with the feedback I'm getting others are agreeing.

[wizardwatson]

Yes, by and large, we suck.

One example - there's a very common theory here that if we ENJOY doing something, it's a good thing to do.

Watch for the word ENJOY. That's a big red flag right there.

Definitely people have that theory. It's fun to be a part of the Ron Paul movements social following. It's a self-esteem builder. This is why it's hard to get grassroots projects off the ground. They inevitably begin with "we need to [insert work here]", which a lot of people instinctively shy away from. There's positive self-esteem feedback involved with work too, even more so, but it requires work. This project requires work, it requires work INDEFINITELY as any long term venture does. In the beginning some people will inevitably do more than their share. Only after it's taken off will the burden be shared more evenly.

This is why I'm not rabidly spamming for emails at this point in time. I don't want an initial list of 300 people if only 10 of them are actually interested in doing stuff. I want to find those 10 people first, then, when we've got some people ready to work we can spread out into people that are only interested in propagating some info here and there. That's also why I elaborated in post #30 above about committees. The whole purpose of having a group of 10 people getting emailed action items is to make sure someone takes action. Peer pressure. Having ten people singularly handle events for their respective area alone I predict would simply atrophy WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO C4L IN MY STATE.

So yeah, we suck as far as organizing goes but I think it can be fixed. What I think we need to sell to people is a clear path to action. Everyone's tired of reading and seeing noise and not seeing action. Many of us want a clear path to action, and that's what this idea is about. Creating a shortest path to action as possible.

[wizardwatson]

I'm in Maine. I'm not interested in losing the plot. I know that Ron Paul supporters are on state committee for my county, and I'm in touch with them. I've offered to help them, and want to be in the loop for things like county committee votes. I'm not all that interested in going to a lot of meetings, but I do want to go to the important ones.

Point being. Hierarchical structure. Based on Geography.

Maine is likely the easiest state out there. Small, and a lot of Ron Paul people there.

Would like to avoid situations where people come on here saying things like "I'm in state X, the election is tomorrow, and I'm completely clueless".

Each state should have a leader. That leader should have a list. The data on that list should be on a website. State / County / Town. We should be to tell anybody - check that website - be in contact with your town, county, state leader for instructions.

see post #30 added a few of my ideas

Essentially yes, I'm talking hierarchical geographical based list management and two-way email information propagation. However, it's not about a "leader". I think we have geographical based committees responsible for maintaining their list and keeping track of projects/events and blasting this info out to supporters. But no GOP or Libert or Reform party "leaders" are part of the scheme. Those people I would simply consider "project" leads.

The overall idea is to separate individual projects/initiatives from the actual organization of the idea/project I'm talking about. A state GOP chairman or whatever would simply send his project/event info to his geographical committee who would then add this info to the master document and would blast out emails to supporters. The point of the newsletter idea is not to actually force participation or put people on the spot but simply inform them efficiently of what's going on. It's still the supporters job to take action on those items.

A state level GOP guy for instance would use the network to get his meeting info out, but if he wanted a direct list of supporters he'd have to build it himself. The committees job is simply to inform the supporter of the GOP guys projects and events, he isn't going to be able to co-opt the list.

The idea in general is not about micro-managing every project that comes down the pipes but rather to organize and document it along with others. People from all across the political spectrum would be part of the supporter list, and it wouldn't make sense to allow direct access to our supporter list. How would we even manage that? There's no efficient way I can see to decide whose project is important enough to allow direct email access. That's not the goal as I see it. The goal is building a network of activists who are informed and given a clear path to action. We lead them to water we don't make them drink.

[ninepointfive]

Mailing lists are the bread and butter. Trying to get a consolidation of email lists is noble, but too many egos at work will destroy this plan.

famously happened on this board last year with some key players

[wizardwatson]

Mailing lists are the bread and butter. Trying to get a consolidation of email lists is noble, but too many egos at work will destroy this plan.

famously happened on this board last year with some key players

Yes they are. This plan is more than a list though. I'm not familiar with what famously happened on this board, you got a link? It wasn't famous enough for me to know about it. Those key players need to get back in the game, why give up? What is going to happen outside the grassroots? The only thing that destroys a plan is having a bad one.

I think the "ego" problem can be overcome by not putting singular people in charge, hence groups/committees. Without knowing what you're talking about though I can't compare this to that.

[Barrex]

Mailing lists are the bread and butter. Trying to get a consolidation of email lists is noble, but too many egos at work will destroy this plan.

famously happened on this board last year with some key players

Agree. Bread and butter.... When I said that there needs to be database of emails of activists, every local news media contact, database for everything people mentioned that Mossad (Israeli secret agency) would hack them. I was new on this forum then and said "ok"(I didnt get it but I didnt wanted to push it because moderators were against it too).

[ninepointfive]

Yes they are. This plan is more than a list though. I'm not familiar with what famously happened on this board, you got a link? It wasn't famous enough for me to know about it. Those key players need to get back in the game, why give up? What is going to happen outside the grassroots? The only thing that destroys a plan is having a bad one.

I think the "ego" problem can be overcome by not putting singular people in charge, hence groups/committees. Without knowing what you're talking about though I can't compare this to that.

Hmmm - I can't give you a link - But basically people were really dogging on Trevor Lyman for not sharing his email list outright.
It had to do with promoting Black This Out moneybomb.

Trevor Left RPF entirely after the way he was treated.

[wizardwatson]

Agree. Bread and butter.... When I said that there needs to be database of emails of activists, every local news media contact, database for everything people mentioned that Mossad (Israeli secret agency) would hack them. I was new on this forum then and said "ok"(I didnt get it but I didnt wanted to push it because moderators were against it too).

Yeah, I saw some of that on another thread about lists. People have to opt-in, there's no other way about it. I think some limited promotion would be acceptable though even if it's through email. Take a forum for instance. A forum owner might decide that the project is a good idea and encourage members to support it via an administrative email. I think this kind of "spam" from someone who owns a list would be acceptable, but no we wouldn't want anyone to just "give" a list over to a project.


Hmmm - I can't give you a link - But basically people were really dogging on Trevor Lyman for not sharing his email list outright.
It had to do with promoting Black This Out moneybomb.

Trevor Left RPF entirely after the way he was treated.

Yeah, that's not the way to go. Who is he going to share with? Who is the entity that wanted that list? Was it a specific person?

There's a way to go about it. I don't see nothing wrong with people being emailed to opt-in to something as long as it's from someone they've already signed up with as a general concept. I get "opt-in" email requests from all sorts of companies I've shared my email with. But the "opt-in" stage is necessary, you can't just grab someone's list and started plugging your agenda.

I think this is a well understood and is standard operating procedure. I get emails from my video store and netflix for instance all the time but I don't get a lot of "spam" because likely these companies are not just selling or sharing my email willy nilly.

[LinuxJedi]

I have some feedback to provide on the organizational structure, but first: it is critical that there is some sane way of keeping a healthy environment in place. I myself have left RPF for periods of time after being brutally insulted by "supporters" who are here to destroy others working. It is absolutely vital that some way of calling out this bad behavior is in place, people use pseudo-anonymity on the Internet as an excuse to behave in a completely unacceptable manner. It is important that people be able to talk and discuss matters, but it is something else entirely when an angry mob is developing with pitchforks calling for blood... and they take out their frustrations on other supporters nearby.

I know that the original intention was to discuss some form of committee / mailing list thing... and there are some refinements that can accompany that. However, it is important to figure out how to address some of these issues. Do you moderate messages up until some threshold, where people have "proven" themselves? Do you encourage locals to moderate each other when they step out of line? Is there some form of process for addressing these types of actions?

For a concrete example... what do you do if some member (perhaps even on one of these proposed committees) starts to throw a tantrum and alienating others with conspiracy theories or general bashing?

Also, I think there is a good opportunity here to really adopt rules of order in a digital form. Perhaps if we mirror this organizational structure with that of how the GOP should be run, people will be more familiar with it when they go to conventions?

[Paul Fan]

So basically the idea is Ron Paul Event & Project News - but pushed out by email rather than being actively sought. I still think that the first step is to make the news available on a website and invite people to opt in. If the news is interesting, then people will opt in. Think about Townhall. You can go to the Townhall website and see all the news. Or you can get it emailed to you if you opt in. But you don't opt in until you have checked out the website a couple days or weeks running, and decide that this is information that you want in your inbox.

I like this idea, it has a different focus from the "social forums" (RPF & DP). It might give events and projects more visibility and more support. They tend to get lost in the chatter on the forums. Perhaps the main challenge may be getting the word out to the people who are creating and running the Events and Projects, to tell you about their events/projects so they can be included in the news. Who are these people? How will they know to contact you? This is where you need to come up with a plan for reaching out to existing state people and get them to agree to give you info.

[LinuxJedi]

Well, building the tool is trivial in comparison to figuring out that we end up where we want to be. A few points:

- Email is really outdated... aggregated RSS feeds based on things you like is much better
- Project management has to be an important part, to allow a small group of people to come up with something to do, and see it through themselves (think SourceForge)
- Email for things like newsletters is a good idea, but email for "getting things done" can be aggravating... because of the number of emails you might get per day
- If done properly, there is no need for there to be a "master controller" vs. a bunch of loosely coordinated parts (again, think open-source project that depend upon other open-source projects).
- ChipIn needs to be there, and some reputation system for ensuring people aren't just lining their pockets with grassroots money

I'm not intimidated by the technology aspect, or getting people to adopt it... but we do need to learn from the positives and negatives of moneybombs, RPF and DP, so that we learn from mistakes.

[wizardwatson]

I made some changes to post #30. After researching GMail and how it handles contact groups it seems google groups is a much better choice for what I'm trying to do. Using Gmail like I was thinking would be too clunky and would require more effort than is necessary. It never occurred to me to use google groups because I thought you had to be a member to post to it which turns out not to be the case. So it would work nicely for the project.

[wizardwatson]

I have some feedback to provide on the organizational structure, but first: it is critical that there is some sane way of keeping a healthy environment in place. I myself have left RPF for periods of time after being brutally insulted by "supporters" who are here to destroy others working. It is absolutely vital that some way of calling out this bad behavior is in place, people use pseudo-anonymity on the Internet as an excuse to behave in a completely unacceptable manner. It is important that people be able to talk and discuss matters, but it is something else entirely when an angry mob is developing with pitchforks calling for blood... and they take out their frustrations on other supporters nearby.

I know that the original intention was to discuss some form of committee / mailing list thing... and there are some refinements that can accompany that. However, it is important to figure out how to address some of these issues. Do you moderate messages up until some threshold, where people have "proven" themselves? Do you encourage locals to moderate each other when they step out of line? Is there some form of process for addressing these types of actions?

For a concrete example... what do you do if some member (perhaps even on one of these proposed committees) starts to throw a tantrum and alienating others with conspiracy theories or general bashing?

Also, I think there is a good opportunity here to really adopt rules of order in a digital form. Perhaps if we mirror this organizational structure with that of how the GOP should be run, people will be more familiar with it when they go to conventions?
I thought about these things and definitely some rules would need to be adopted and followed eventually, not unlike the rules that guide this forum. However, I don't even have the plan of what I'm doing fleshed out and the details keep evolving. One good thing is that the idea is not a forum, it's just a committee of people using a google group and sharing web-based documents. So that cuts down on the troll factor right away. At first though I'm simply going to get people who I think are genuinely interested and also people here in KS that I trust as well as RPF'ers that I've known for some time.

I honestly have given this area little thought as I'm more worried about either no one doing anything, or the committee inbox being overrun by one serial poster. The group can fix the latter using admin tools that's part of the google group for that kind of stuff though. There's also an issue of how the comittee members moderate stuff that supporters want promoted on the map document. Initially I'd like to see everything relevant to grassroots organizing and connecting with grassroots in your area included.

I think that these issues of how content put on the map is moderated, how we tailor the emails we send out, how we deal with problem committee members and troll posters though are minor issues at this stage. If they became an issue in the scenario I'm describing then I think that would actually be a sign of success that things were moving along well enough for those problems to present themselves.

[LinuxJedi]

I would suggest that Google Groups is a bad idea. First, if Google abandon groups this would leave the movement at a severe disadvantage. Second, I would be concerned about creating "islands" of support with no interconnection.

I think that it is important to have some sort of geographical-hierarchy of groups, but something like Redmine projects with an associated mailing list is probably the best way to go.

Take a look at the demo of redmine: http://demo.redmine.org/

[wizardwatson]

So basically the idea is Ron Paul Event & Project News - but pushed out by email rather than being actively sought. I still think that the first step is to make the news available on a website and invite people to opt in. If the news is interesting, then people will opt in. Think about Townhall. You can go to the Townhall website and see all the news. Or you can get it emailed to you if you opt in. But you don't opt in until you have checked out the website a couple days or weeks running, and decide that this is information that you want in your inbox.

I like this idea, it has a different focus from the "social forums" (RPF & DP). It might give events and projects more visibility and more support. They tend to get lost in the chatter on the forums. Perhaps the main challenge may be getting the word out to the people who are creating and running the Events and Projects, to tell you about their events/projects so they can be included in the news. Who are these people? How will they know to contact you? This is where you need to come up with a plan for reaching out to existing state people and get them to agree to give you info.

The "map" document is the central place where all the info will be aggregated. People will be directed there to see what basically amounts to a catalog of grassroots activity. And if they choose they can opt-in to receive emails that summarize activities and action items specific to their area. That's really all that it is.

Yeah, both committee members supporters and project leaders would contribute to the "map". Supporters might ask to post a poker party in their town for activists. A committee member might be datamining local GOP event info. A moneybomb project leader might want a link to his promotion site put on the map. It's a collaborative project and the map is the end product along with the newsletter emails.

[wizardwatson]

Well, building the tool is trivial in comparison to figuring out that we end up where we want to be. A few points:

- Email is really outdated... aggregated RSS feeds based on things you like is much better
- Project management has to be an important part, to allow a small group of people to come up with something to do, and see it through themselves (think SourceForge)
- Email for things like newsletters is a good idea, but email for "getting things done" can be aggravating... because of the number of emails you might get per day
- If done properly, there is no need for there to be a "master controller" vs. a bunch of loosely coordinated parts (again, think open-source project that depend upon other open-source projects).
- ChipIn needs to be there, and some reputation system for ensuring people aren't just lining their pockets with grassroots money

I'm not intimidated by the technology aspect, or getting people to adopt it... but we do need to learn from the positives and negatives of moneybombs, RPF and DP, so that we learn from mistakes.

The scope of this project I'm trying to outline is very small. And I'm specifically NOT making project management part of that. I'm actually part of another group of RPF'ers that tried something like that in 2010 and no one ended up doing anything. I've posted a lot of text in this thread but basically I'm talking about a collaboratively managed collection of wikipages and a newsletter with multi-person committees set up to handle emails and supporter feedback in a timely and efficient manner. I feel like if I go outside this box I'm heading into "scope creep" territory.

Increasing the scope to include some kind of project management I think would be an idea killer. This isn't to say there is no use for it, just that I'd be more comfortable from my standpoint merely using the map to point to and promote those projects that are managed in the way you envision.


I would suggest that Google Groups is a bad idea. First, if Google abandon groups this would leave the movement at a severe disadvantage. Second, I would be concerned about creating "islands" of support with no interconnection.

I think that it is important to have some sort of geographical-hierarchy of groups, but something like Redmine projects with an associated mailing list is probably the best way to go.

Take a look at the demo of redmine: http://demo.redmine.org/

As I said above project management is really outside the scope of what I'm proposing. My idea would promote rather than participate in project management ideas and initiatives.

I don't think using google groups is a "bad" idea though. Yes it could go away, but even if it did I'm sure we'd have warning, and what I'm proposing wouldn't be that hard to mimic with some code anyway (I'm a web programmer myself). I'm not saying use google groups permanently, if someone finds something that does the job I'm describing just as well or better without the failings of google group I'll be all for it.

But I'm attracted to the simplicity. I don't want to get into hosting our own website even, much less writing proprietary software or using project management suites that we have to install ourselves. Why go that far when all the project requires shared public and private docs, a mailing list group (google groups) and basic email functionality?

I'm not trying to shoot you down, I really appreciate the input you've put on here (thanx!!!). I'm just trying to get you (and others who may be watching) that I'm not trying to create something that is a panacea for the grassroots movement. I see an unfilled need. A hole in our whole process. We have forums and social networks, people with large supporter lists, web-based project management tools like you describe, and many other things. What we don't have is an easy way to get ahold of organizers in your area and we don't have a "catalog" a "map", if you will, of grassroots information.

Even to me it sounds stupid easy. I can easily see someone yelling "well shut up and build it then". I want to, but I want the effort to be collaborative and current which means we need to spread around the work to keep it updated. If I devoted 8 hours a day I might be able to compile most of what's happening in KS but I'd never be able to keep a national list of events and info current.

Let's build that, then when we've succeeded in getting eyeballs all going in the same direction we can use that to point to the "higher order goods" that you are thinking about.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that the internet is big but it is finite. This project wouldn't grow forever, eventually the effort required would level off. There's only so many grassroots projects and events going on across the country and I think it's not out of reach to get nearly all of it in our catalog.

[parocks]

great, another website </s>

I like the ability of you 2 to type, be reasonable, make sense.

But you're talking about another website, it isn't something other than that.

On the plus side, who ever wants to build a website has a long time to do it, because you aren't talking about 2012.

Building a website like this is easy enough, getting people who are already using facebook or meetup or whatever they're using, to use your website would be extremely time consuming, and dull, and not filled with glory or money or power. So, typically, that's where these projects dwindle.

This "map" document is a web page, right, it's on the internet? So, we ARE talking about another website.

You really just should accept that what you really should be doing if you want to spend time doing this (that's iffy) is building a website. And then you need to determine exactly what the new website should contain, and then you figure out which of the various joomla, drupal, etc softwares will work for you.

You might want to take a look at the functionalities that are sitting right here
http://webmusicvideo.com/bachmann2012/ This is mine, it's there because last summer someone said "I own bachmann2012.com, what should we do with that", and I said "I'll do something, why not?" And we figured out what to do, and did something. Very few people cared and used the site. But, you know, why take it down? I use it because its the fastest way to upload graphics (as an attachment on the forum section). It's easy enough to throw together various modules and components, a community social network component, an email list component, groups, secret groups, etc etc etc. If you wanted to look at it, you'd see the features.

The key point is - it was very very easy to do.

[wizardwatson]

great, another website </s>

I like the ability of you 2 to type, be reasonable, make sense.

But you're talking about another website, it isn't something other than that.

On the plus side, who ever wants to build a website has a long time to do it, because you aren't talking about 2012.

Building a website like this is easy enough, getting people who are already using facebook or meetup or whatever they're using, to use your website would be extremely time consuming, and dull, and not filled with glory or money or power. So, typically, that's where these projects dwindle.

This "map" document is a web page, right, it's on the internet? So, we ARE talking about another website.

You really just should accept that what you really should be doing if you want to spend time doing this (that's iffy) is building a website. And then you need to determine exactly what the new website should contain, and then you figure out which of the various joomla, drupal, etc softwares will work for you.

...

The key point is - it was very very easy to do.

You are right. In essence it is a website. The "map" part anyway. But there's also a contact list and a mailing list and a newsletter involved. What I want is a simple shared website for the web document part though. I could easily use a wiki, or some other software, I don't however see the need for something like drupal or joomla. I'm open to suggestions about what software would be ideal for this scenario, but I don't want something complicated that requires knowledge of HTML. I want something simple to access and share, something that a non-tech person can simply copy and paste text into. This is why I propose using a google doc. There may be something to gain from using a traditional website but if it comes to that it should be a no brainer copying the shared doc compilation over to a website format under some url.

I'm a programmer and I use python hosted google's cloud platform. If it came to constructing a website to replace the "ticketing" system I'm proposing (implemented via a google group) it wouldn't be hard to program. Google's app engine provides a free robust infrastructure that could handle up to 5 million hits for free and it's cheaply scalable after that. The site could be programmed to handle the incoming email requests, a simple page could be constructed ajax style to where the committee members could just log in and click on the work items and email back the originator. This is probably the "ideal" anyway, because if you had a robust ticketing system for handling incoming mail you could have hundreds of people handling communication requests from all over the country rather than splitting the committees and work requests up geographically.

These are the key points that need to be implemented:

1. Communication: Anyone needs to be able to post info to the committee that gets moderated by the committee and added to the webpage and responded to IN A TIMELY MANNER. For that we need a simple group based ticketing system and a shared and collaboratively edited public web document.
2. Newsletter: The committees have to manual constuct emails that are relevant to geographical location of supporters and send them out. For this we simply need a shared contact list.
3. Template: We need clear instructions for supporters on how to use the system and clear instructions for committee members on how to moderate and in what way the web document should be constructed as well as guidelines for how the newsletter emails should be formatted.

It is easy, it's stupid easy but just because something is easy and obvious doesn't mean it's being done. Yes, great, another website. But tell me where the website is that allows me to directly contact someone with important or relevant info (and actually get them to respond) and have it added to a website that is promoted via a newsletter that is sent out to the supporters the info is most relevant to.

Point #1 is the main part to me and it is the easiest to implement. Point #3 is the hardest as it actually requires that someone intelligent put together an instructional template of "how to do things". Point #2 relies on #3 being done. For all these core things actual humans have to do it. There's no software that is going to to do all these things for you. Yes you can augment and streamline the process as I said above but you still need person to person communication and actual humans inputting information in an intelligable way. There is no AI that is going to parse your text and determine where and to who it should go. Even if your program has everything categorized and labeled with dates you're still using humans to catalog and categorize the data.

You are right though, projects fail because there is no glory involved. Doing actual work for free, simply for a cause is not something that comes natural to people. And yes it is "iffy" at this point whether people would actually work on this. People would rather type and type and type for self-esteem reasons on the internet rather than work towards a meaningful goal.

What I'm trying to put together is something that is as simple as can be and still produce something useful. And in the embryonic stage I want to do it using the simplest tools possible. All this typing is for me more than anything as it helps me realize what I'm unclear about and what I'm sure about. But ultimately before I can truly market it I have to decide as you said, exactly what the web document (or site) will contain.

[Paul Fan]

Have you looked at the Campaign for Liberty's map? It looks great but there isn't much content. Maybe because they aren't allowed to endorse? Or maybe for some other reason. There is definitely scope for a better version. How would your map be different? It would save work if trusted event/project leaders could post the events and projects themselves - maybe with moderation for a while until they were trusted. It would be good if users could select several places and get emails for all of them, which CfL doesn't seem to allow. It might be nice to have an international section too. There seem to be lots of RPFers from other countries.

[parocks]

http://webmusicvideo.com/bachmann2012/

WizWat - just look at that website.

Since I did that website - and since that website does much of what you want already - you might want to look at it.

Many, most, all of the things you want to accomplish I've done at one point or another for over 10 years.

It's 2012. Everything you want to accomplish can be accomplished with a website. All functions, interrelated.

Again, look at the website, test to see if it does, now, what you want it to do.

[parocks]

Have you looked at the Campaign for Liberty's map? It looks great but there isn't much content. Maybe because they aren't allowed to endorse? Or maybe for some other reason. There is definitely scope for a better version. How would your map be different? It would save work if trusted event/project leaders could post the events and projects themselves - maybe with moderation for a while until they were trusted. It would be good if users could select several places and get emails for all of them, which CfL doesn't seem to allow. It might be nice to have an international section too. There seem to be lots of RPFers from other countries.

I just looked at, joined up to, the c4l site. Not sure what people are talking about with the map.