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JasonM
05-25-2012, 08:53 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-merkel-0525-jm-20120525,0,6605261.story


Yet Merkel has domestic political concerns too. Her nation underwent the painful economic restructuring that France and others now want to postpone. It reduced government spending, including cuts in unaffordable social programs. Work rules were changed to make its economy more flexible and competitive. Germans know from hard-won experience what their neighbors need to do. They don't want to pay through inflation and a devalued currency for the sake of letting their neighbors temporarily fend off those inevitable changes.

By Jove, I think they've got it! Because they underwent the necessary pain, now they are the envy of all Europe who is begging for Germany to give in and subsidize their spend-thrift ways! Thank goodness that Merkel is strong and saying "Nein!!". Germany would be foolish if they went through painful restructuring only to let the rest of Europe sink them as a country!

Now if only the gutless Congress can pull off a similar feat like the Germans! I think I may have just become a fan of Merkel, the president of Germany!

ds21089
05-25-2012, 08:57 AM
Germany has been making some good moves lately. I hope at the very least it makes other people want to emulate some of their ideas and put pressure on their leaders to follow those steps or risk impeachment. We just need a few places sprouting up to show others how it's done and it's only a matter of time before people would look blatantly idiotic to the public for not following the same procedures.

KingNothing
05-25-2012, 09:03 AM
Its easy to look good when you're neighbors are European nations, and your currency is structured in such a way that it gives workers in your nation an advantage over everyone else.

andrer
05-25-2012, 09:21 AM
Germany are doing some really stupid things too. They are about to forbid nuclear power and it's development. This while China and India are investing in new generation power plants that can use the uranium many, many times over and still be safer and cheaper to mantain.

You can see energy as the salary for a machine. More expensive energy and the machine will be more expensive to use. By doing this, Germany's power will be much more expensive than China's, meaning that machines are working cheaper in China than in Germany. In other words, the Germans will have to lower their standard of living to compete with the Chinese.

If US manage to kick out the corrupt and incompetent politicians, so could US be the leading country in developing the future of energy since Europe has enormous problem itself with all the regulations, taxes and corruption.

Danan
05-25-2012, 09:53 AM
Its easy to look good when you're neighbors are European nations, and your currency is structured in such a way that it gives workers in your nation an advantage over everyone else.

That's not true. The (relative) success of Germany has very little to do with it's currency. It comes from higher productivity. And some reasons for this higher productivity are indeed those stated in the OP's article.

Those laws were by the way a part of the "Agenda 2010" put forward by the Social Democratic Party (!). And although most of the stuff in there really improved Germany's competitiveness Gerhard Schröder (SPD) was kicked out of office in the following election because of it.

Your argument that Germany is profiting from the Euro on the expense of other European nations is completely wrong. That is in fact the logic the left political, journalistic and economic mainstream is using right now to blame Germany for the shortcomings of Greece, Spain and other countries in bad shape. But Germany's trade surplus is not the cause of low Greek productivity, it is it's effect. I'm really cautious when it comes to this rhetoric because the left uses it to advocate the streamlining of economic and social conditions and laws by central planners in Brussels.

JasonM
05-25-2012, 10:12 AM
Germany are doing some really stupid things too. They are about to forbid nuclear power and it's development. This while China and India are investing in new generation power plants that can use the uranium many, many times over and still be safer and cheaper to mantain.

You can see energy as the salary for a machine. More expensive energy and the machine will be more expensive to use. By doing this, Germany's power will be much more expensive than China's, meaning that machines are working cheaper in China than in Germany. In other words, the Germans will have to lower their standard of living to compete with the Chinese.

If US manage to kick out the corrupt and incompetent politicians, so could US be the leading country in developing the future of energy since Europe has enormous problem itself with all the regulations, taxes and corruption.

Well considering that they had to deal with Chernobyl and saw the effects that Fukashima could have had, can you really blame them? Nuclear power is great when nothing goes wrong, and there are lots of safeguards to make it relatively safe. But when something goes horribly wrong, it REALLY goes horribly wrong.

Think of it this way: if there was a way to get unlimited "free" energy from a device that is the equivalent of 5 megaton nuclear warhead if it exploded, and there was a .0001% chance that it could go off at any given time while active, would you REALLY want the thing based anywhere close to your home town? If your answer is "sure, if my town gets a really sweat payout", what if the nightmare scenario happened once and there were at least several close calls in the last 50 years? Would you still take the risk? Is it really worth the risk, especially if you cannot manage a worst case scenario that could potentially cripple your country for a century?

It's pretty clear that the german people's answer to this is a resounding "nein!", and they'll pay the higher energy prices. Their prudence will be demonstrated when China experiences its own version of a nuclear meltdown as the result of some uncontrollable circumstance like a disaster or worker incompetence/error. After all, you get what you pay for with "cheap labor".

Demigod
05-25-2012, 10:24 AM
The success of Germany has to do everything with a private 500 million market + a regulatory body in the EU that kills every competition in other countries.

Here is the USA version of the EU

If California and Texas got together and had the capability to write laws that would only benefit them in Washington ( that is what France and Germany do ),have no import tax to every other USA state but all the other states had quotas what they could export into California and Texas.And finally because they hold so much power they are able to take loans at 1-3% interest rate while loaning to other USA states at 4-7% rates without any possibility of a bankruptcy to erase the debt, also force the countries that take the loans to buy Californian and Texan products.

If on the other hand you don't take loans from Texas and California or do not respect the regulations whose only goal is to destroy your industry then they will simply finance opposition political parties,NGO's,minorities to take down the government.


F**KING GREAT MODEL

Danan
05-25-2012, 11:03 AM
The success of Germany has to do everything with a private 500 million market + a regulatory body in the EU that kills every competition in other countries.

If California and Texas got together and had the capability to write laws that would only benefit them in Washington ( that is what France and Germany do ),have no import tax to every other USA state but all the other states had quotas what they could export into California and Texas.And finally because they hold so much power they are able to take loans at 1-3% interest rate while loaning to other USA states at 4-7% rates without any possibility of a bankruptcy to erase the debt, also force the countries that take the loans to buy Californian and Texan products.

If on the other hand you don't take loans from Texas and California or do not respect the regulations whose only goal is to destroy your industry then they will simply finance opposition political parties,NGO's,minorities to take down the government.


F**KING GREAT MODEL

That's completely untrue. Interest rates for German bonds are lower than Greek ones because the financial market beliefs that there is a far lower risk of default. How is missing budget discipline of southern European countries the fault of Germany?

It is a matter of fact that over the years countries like Germany, the Netherlands, or Austria paid billions more into the EU budget than they recieved while the opposite is true for Greece, Spain and Portugal. What an evil plan of ours to enslave the south.

As much as I hate the European Union (like I said, Germans, Dutch, Austrians and so on are the big losers of this organization) you can't blame it for the bad shape of the PIIGS-states. They are unproductive with an out of control budget because their own governments destroyed their countries. Their taxsystem is laughable, their social welfare programs go far beyond what they can afford with their productivity (not that they were desirable if they could afford them), their violent, mafia-like unions are blocking any improvement in labor law, their pension system is totally unsustainable and I could go on for pages.

To blame Germany for their mischief is completely wrong.

CJPrinter
05-25-2012, 11:10 AM
Germany are doing some really stupid things too. They are about to forbid nuclear power and it's development. This while China and India are investing in new generation power plants that can use the uranium many, many times over and still be safer and cheaper to mantain.

You can see energy as the salary for a machine. More expensive energy and the machine will be more expensive to use. By doing this, Germany's power will be much more expensive than China's, meaning that machines are working cheaper in China than in Germany. In other words, the Germans will have to lower their standard of living to compete with the Chinese.

If US manage to kick out the corrupt and incompetent politicians, so could US be the leading country in developing the future of energy since Europe has enormous problem itself with all the regulations, taxes and corruption.


Well considering that they had to deal with Chernobyl and saw the effects that Fukashima could have had, can you really blame them? Nuclear power is great when nothing goes wrong, and there are lots of safeguards to make it relatively safe. But when something goes horribly wrong, it REALLY goes horribly wrong.

Think of it this way: if there was a way to get unlimited "free" energy from a device that is the equivalent of 5 megaton nuclear warhead if it exploded, and there was a .0001% chance that it could go off at any given time while active, would you REALLY want the thing based anywhere close to your home town? If your answer is "sure, if my town gets a really sweat payout", what if the nightmare scenario happened once and there were at least several close calls in the last 50 years? Would you still take the risk? Is it really worth the risk, especially if you cannot manage a worst case scenario that could potentially cripple your country for a century?

It's pretty clear that the german people's answer to this is a resounding "nein!", and they'll pay the higher energy prices. Their prudence will be demonstrated when China experiences its own version of a nuclear meltdown as the result of some uncontrollable circumstance like a disaster or worker incompetence/error. After all, you get what you pay for with "cheap labor".

They are not forbidding nuclear, they are simply phasing out the old outdated plants they currently have operating and shifting focus onto renewable energy over the next 10 years. There are several VERY REAL options available to them and they are smart enough to see them. (Unlike the United States)

Fact is there is a way to get unlimited (nearly) "free" energy from a device that is the equivalent of 5 megaton nuclear warhead. It's called a Thorium reactor (http://www.thorium.tv/en/thorium_reactor/thorium_reactor_1.php), and it's PERFECTLY SAFE. China is leading the charge on this technology & Germany is right there with them. You know why we aren't? Because the current Uranium reactors generate Plutonium as a byproduct. You know, the stuff that makes warheads go BOOM. Convenient huh?

There are other things they are looking at too, like molten salt batteries (http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energ y.html) in conjunction with the current 20 percent of electricity production they get from wind, solar and other renewable energy sources.

Oh, and even after Germany permanently switched off the eight oldest of its 17 nuclear power plants last year following the Fukushima disaster, they were still a net exporter of electricity. What EXACTLY is wrong with this approach?

Danan
05-25-2012, 12:01 PM
@CJPrinter

The government made a deal with the big energy companies regarding a "phase out" plan for nuclear energy before the Fukushima accident happend. Those companies relied on these plans until the green populism after the fallout in Japan (which was not in any way comparable to German power plants) pressured the government to a immediate shutdown of the older plants and a far earlier shutdown of the newer ones which lowered projected profits (as well as taxes intended to slowly build a new infrastructure) and will subsiquently cause higher energy prices.

Not only that but they plan to replace nuclear power with "green energy" that is not market-ready at all. The price for this kind of energy without subsidies would be enormous.

And also this kind of energy is highly unreliable, since wind and solar energy are based on weather conditions as well as daytime. The way the energy system works until recently is that nuclear power plants provide the "base energy" that is used all the time since it's very expensive to vary the output of them. The next kind of energy that gets fed into the power grid is green energy (because of a law that says that if you produce green energy your'e always allowed to feed it in) and the rest is power made of coal and especially gas because it's quite easy to tweak the amount of energy from this source.

Because of emissions (and maybe energy independence) the government is reluctant to compensate nuclear power with gas. And that's the reason many highly skilled engineers and physicists fear a total collapse of the central European power grids in bad weather conditions if the government really implements it's plan.

Another thing that is"wrong with this approach" is that to ensure at least some kind of energy security the vast majority of energy would have to be gained on the shores of northern Germany. But since you can't store this energy easily new pumped storage power station had to be built - in southern germany, which is the only place with necessary topology. And this wouldn't be cheap.

Also the plan of the government (solar panels on private homes, etc.) relies on a very thinly spread power grid with new and expensive technologies. To install such a grid would cost the taxpayer (or power consumer, it depends) a fortune. And the worst part of this: Your mentioned Thorium reactors or new nuclear fusion reactors could become a valid and feasible option until the new grid is complete - but they would need a whole other kind of network. That would be billions and billions completely wasted.

So in conclusion: "What EXACTLY is wrong with this approach?" - The fact that the government sticks it's nose into the energy market - of which it has (what a surprise) no clue whatsoever and tries to force change before the market is ready for it which could cause a great deal of suffering. And why? Just because they feared the Green Party (a buch of socialists) could win an election in Baden-Württemberg. Which they did anyway.

Demigod
05-25-2012, 12:09 PM
That's completely untrue. Interest rates for German bonds are lower than Greek ones because the financial market beliefs that there is a far lower risk of default. How is missing budget discipline of southern European countries the fault of Germany?

It is a matter of fact that over the years countries like Germany, the Netherlands, or Austria paid billions more into the EU budget than they recieved while the opposite is true for Greece, Spain and Portugal. What an evil plan of ours to enslave the south.

As much as I hate the European Union (like I said, Germans, Dutch, Austrians and so on are the big losers of this organization) you can't blame it for the bad shape of the PIIGS-states. They are unproductive with an out of control budget because their own governments destroyed their countries. Their taxsystem is laughable, their social welfare programs go far beyond what they can afford with their productivity (not that they were desirable if they could afford them), their violent, mafia-like unions are blocking any improvement in labor law, their pension system is totally unsustainable and I could go on for pages.

To blame Germany for their mischief is completely wrong.

The EU protects those same governments that as you say spend more than they have and helps them to get reelected.Did you not reed the part about opposition political parties,NGO`s and minorities that I wrote.If you don't do what the EU says you get thrown out of power.The Slovaks refused the Greek bailouts so many time that in the end their government was changed with a new one that accepted.What the German,Austrian and Dutch taxpayers paid more than needed has been used by their governments for bribing other governments for decades.Do you think any of that money is ever used for something productive?

From the last bailout for Greece almost 10 billion went for buying German and French weapons, is this the great German fiscal responsibility which by the way is the number one country in defaults in Europe?


In the end by all means if you are so miserable and don't want to pay for the poor south STOP PAYING.


I got interested by what you said that Austria,Germany and the Netherlands paid for all so I found this site http://www.money-go-round.eu/ where it says who gave and took how much.

After adding all the amounts of the countries that had overpaid and taking out of that all the amounts of money countries have received over what they have paid in the end result is a net + of 318 billions for the EU so if I were you I would first look up what they did with all the extra money you paid in.

Except for Greece,Portugal,Ireland,Spain and to some extent Poland who have gotten 92,50,41,93 and 27 respectably all the other countries that have gotten more are sums from 1-5 billion dollars and all together can be covered by how much Sweden paid more.

On the other hand Italy which is in the PIIGS has paid more in than Austria and Netherlands combined.

CJPrinter
05-25-2012, 12:30 PM
@CJPrinter

The government made a deal with the big energy companies regarding a "phase out" plan for nuclear energy before the Fukushima accident happend. Those companies relied on these plans until the green populism after the fallout in Japan (which was not in any way comparable to German power plants) pressured the government to a immediate shutdown of the older plants and a far earlier shutdown of the newer ones which lowered projected profits (as well as taxes intended to slowly build a new infrastructure) and will subsiquently cause higher energy prices.

Not only that but they plan to replace nuclear power with "green energy" that is not market-ready at all. The price for this kind of energy without subsidies would be enormous.

And also this kind of energy is highly unreliable, since wind and solar energy are based on weather conditions as well as daytime. The way the energy system works until recently is that nuclear power plants provide the "base energy" that is used all the time since it's very expensive to vary the output of them. The next kind of energy that gets fed into the power grid is green energy (because of a law that says that if you produce green energy your'e always allowed to feed it in) and the rest is power made of coal and especially gas because it's quite easy to tweak the amount of energy from this source.

Because of emissions (and maybe energy independence) the government is reluctant to compensate nuclear power with gas. And that's the reason many highly skilled engineers and physicists fear a total collapse of the central European power grids in bad weather conditions if the government really implements it's plan.

Another thing that is"wrong with this approach" is that to ensure at least some kind of energy security the vast majority of energy would have to be gained on the shores of northern Germany. But since you can't store this energy easily new pumped storage power station had to be built - in southern germany, which is the only place with necessary topology. And this wouldn't be cheap.

Also the plan of the government (solar panels on private homes, etc.) relies on a very thinly spread power grid with new and expensive technologies. To install such a grid would cost the taxpayer (or power consumer, it depends) a fortune. And the worst part of this: Your mentioned Thorium reactors or new nuclear fusion reactors could become a valid and feasible option until the new grid is complete - but they would need a whole other kind of network. That would be billions and billions completely wasted.

So in conclusion: "What EXACTLY is wrong with this approach?" - The fact that the government sticks it's nose into the energy market - of which it has (what a surprise) no clue whatsoever and tries to force change before the market is ready for it which could cause a great deal of suffering. And why? Just because they feared the Green Party (a buch of socialists) could win an election in Baden-Württemberg. Which they did anyway.

I'll concede your point on the government sticking it's nose into the energy market, BUT I'm not sure you understand how Thorium and new nuclear fusion reactors work. There is no need for a "new grid," or "whole other kind of network," they simply replace the current plants an plug into the EXISTING grid. Same goes for molten salt batteries...

andrer
05-25-2012, 12:41 PM
The energy question is huge, and usally evolves to the biggest and most intense discussions! But we should not hijack this thread and have this discussion here.

JasonM: You should however, look up GEN IV nuclear reactors. Start with the molten salt reactors. They use today's nuclear waste and often together with throrium as fuel. They are many times more efficient, has a passive safety system and operates at atmospheric preassure (meaning that they can't explode). Because of this, China claims today that their uranium reserves that before would last 60 years, now can last 3000 years with less radiactive waste and to a fraction of the cost.

CJPrinter
05-25-2012, 12:48 PM
The energy question is huge, and usally evolves to the biggest and most intense discussions! But we should not hijack this thread and have this discussion here.

Good point. I honestly had not realized I did until you pointed it out. I just went back, read everything in context. Low and behold that's exactly what happened. Sorry all. :o

Danan
05-25-2012, 12:49 PM
The EU protects those same governments that as you say spend more than they have and helps them to get reelected.Did you not reed the part about opposition political parties,NGO`s and minorities that I wrote.If you don't do what the EU says you get thrown out of power.The Slovaks refused the Greek bailouts so many time that in the end their government was changed with a new one that accepted.What the German,Austrian and Dutch taxpayers paid more than needed has been used by their governments for bribing other governments for decades.Do you think any of that money is ever used for something productive?

From the last bailout for Greece almost 10 billion went for buying German and French weapons, is this the great German fiscal responsibility which by the way is the number one country in defaults in Europe?

In the end by all means if you are so miserable and don't want to pay for the poor south STOP PAYING.

Guess what? I don't want to pay. The sad fact of the matter is that we don't have Ron Paul running for office in Austria or at least a history of liberty. I don't know if you're an US citizen but that's like coming to this forum and write "What's your problem? If the Federal Reserve system is so damaging to your economy, why don't you just shut it down and shut it up?!". I'd love to if I could. But our politicians are only interested in helping out big banks and getting reelected. Sadly they can combine these goals because the general public is completely stupid and the media is bought.

But why do you think that rightwing, nationalistic populists are gaining votes in Austria, the Netherlands, Finnland, Sweden and so on? Because the EU harms them a great deal and while these parties are far from perfect (and by that I mean so far from perfect that I can't even vote for them) they are at least the only ones who are against the EU-worshipping.

The Slovaks had one great, very liberty minded, but also small party in the government that was against these measurments. Because the spineless prime minister didn't have the guts to do what's right she forced a snap election only to lose by leaps and bounds to the opposing Social Democrates (who also voted against the measurments) and to join them as a junior partner. Guess what, their first action in charge was to change their minds and pass the law. This had nothing to do with Germany or France. Do you believe Angela Merkel blackmailed them or hired assassins? Never try to motivate something with maliciousness which could otherwise be explained by sheer stupidity when it comes to government officials.

"Do you think any of that money is ever used for something productive?" How could it be used productive? We're talking about government. But that doesn't mean it is used for bribes. It's used to finance stupid, useless projects in economically underdeveloped regions of europe. Of course there was an enormous amount of waste and in case of countries like Greece also bribery. But you know why? Because the EU gave the money to the people in charge of these projects and you literally can't to anything in Greece without bribes. So is that your prove that the shit that's going on here is only because it's in the interest of the German people to damage weaker economies? To accept that you would have to accept the assumption that the German government acts in interest of it's people. And it doesn't. No government does that.

The German economy does not profite from what's going on in any way. The actions by the French and German government in regards to Greece have nothing to do with the EU or the Euro. The only purpose of them is to save their own banks who are heavily invested in Greece. That's exactly the reason why Great Britain also participated in the Ireland "rescue" although they don't have the same currency. It's all about the banks. And if you believe that the wellbeing of banks is to the advance of the people your completely wrong.

Danan
05-25-2012, 12:52 PM
I'll concede your point on the government sticking it's nose into the energy market, BUT I'm not sure you understand how Thorium and new nuclear fusion reactors work. There is no need for a "new grid," or "whole other kind of network," they simply replace the current plants an plug into the EXISTING grid. Same goes for molten salt batteries...

A last point to the energy discussion: They are planning the build a very expensive, completely new and thinner grid that would be useless if tomorrow's energy comes from big power plants once again, that's all I was trying to say. And there is good reason to be against that if there is the possibillity of other kinds of energy than power from solar pannels.

JasonM
05-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Guess what? I don't want to pay. The sad fact of the matter is that we don't have Ron Paul running for office in Austria or at least a history of liberty. I don't know if you're an US citizen but that's like coming to this forum and write "What's your problem? If the Federal Reserve system is so damaging to your economy, why don't you just shut it down and shut it up?!". I'd love to if I could. But our politicians are only interested in helping out big banks and getting reelected. Sadly they can combine these goals because the general public is completely stupid and the media is bought.

But why do you think that rightwing, nationalistic populists are gaining votes in Austria, the Netherlands, Finnland, Sweden and so on? Because the EU harms them a great deal and while these parties are far from perfect (and by that I mean so far from perfect that I can't even vote for them) they are at least the only ones who are against the EU-worshipping.

The Slovaks had one great, very liberty minded, but also small party in the government that was against these measurments. Because the spineless prime minister didn't have the guts to do what's right she forced a snap election only to lose by leaps and bounds to the opposing Social Democrates (who also voted against the measurments) and to join them as a junior partner. Guess what, their first action in charge was to change their minds and pass the law. This had nothing to do with Germany or France. Do you believe Angela Merkel blackmailed them or hired assassins? Never try to motivate something with maliciousness which could otherwise be explained by sheer stupidity when it comes to government officials.

"Do you think any of that money is ever used for something productive?" How could it be used productive? We're talking about government. But that doesn't mean it is used for bribes. It's used to finance stupid, useless projects in economically underdeveloped regions of europe. Of course there was an enormous amount of waste and in case of countries like Greece also bribery. But you know why? Because the EU gave the money to the people in charge of these projects and you literally can't to anything in Greece without bribes. So is that your prove that the shit that's going on here is only because it's in the interest of the German people to damage weaker economies? To accept that you would have to accept the assumption that the German government acts in interest of it's people. And it doesn't. No government does that.

The German economy does not profite from what's going on in any way. The actions by the French and German government in regards to Greece have nothing to do with the EU or the Euro. The only purpose of them is to save their own banks who are heavily invested in Greece. That's exactly the reason why Great Britain also participated in the Ireland "rescue" although they don't have the same currency. It's all about the banks. And if you believe that the wellbeing of banks is to the advance of the people your completely wrong.

Sometimes I feel like the only viable liberty movement going on in the world is right here in the US, and even that is in its early stages and having a rough time.

If our beliefs in small government and liberty were really truly true, then surely there must be some kind of movement elsewhere in the world that believes in the same things we do and trying to make it happen!

Danan
05-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Sometimes I feel like the only viable liberty movement going on in the world is right here in the US, and even that is in its early stages and having a rough time.

If our beliefs in small government and liberty were really truly true, then surely there must be some kind of movement elsewhere in the world that believes in the same things we do and trying to make it happen!

I sincerely belief that if it wasn't for Ron Paul the situation in European countries and the US would be very similar.

Because, let's face it, even with your great history and that wonderful written document called the US Constitution real libertarians are still a small minority in the general public. There are quite a few people who love liberty but make all kinds of compromises in favour of the state because they don't think that this or that can be solved voluntary. And these people exist in Europe too. But they are hardly successful, neither here nor there. They may achieve one or two little moves in the direction of liberty but all their effort disappears in the great scheme of things. The only thing they might be able to do is to slow down the inevitable crash but they could never turn everything around.

That's maybe the single most important thing I've learned from Ron Paul's campaign and his whole career. Never compromise. Ever.

Compromises kill you and everything you stand for. It's not worth it to work within the system and to be a team player. You only get used by the team and help them getting more efficient with their vicious game. The reason Ron Paul has such an influence, scares the sh** out of the mainstream and can start a real revolution is because he was always honest, even if every political strategist on this planet would have advised him otherwise. And because he was ideologically pure to the greatest possible degree where he could still possibly run for any public office. And because he refused to play the game.

In order to be a real beacon of freedom, someone with a real chance to start a process of real change towards liberty, you have to be completely flawless. And I couldn't name any other politician since WWII who embodies flawlessness like Ron Paul does.


That being said, it's really not the case that Europe has no history of liberty (that's why I said without Ron Paul things wouldn't be that different on both continents).

The second chancelor of Germany Ludwig Erhard whose policies were responsible for the German "Wirtschaftswunder" was a huge free market guy and a member of the Mont Pelerin Society and close friend to people like Friedrich Hayek. Germany also has a quite successful "FDP" ("Free Democratic Party") that currently has to fight for it's life. And not because people don't like the idea of freedom in Germany, but because they couldn't achieve any promised tax or spending cuts while being in the same cabinet with Angela Merkel's party. Another example of good intentions that turned out to be very damaging to the cause of liberty because the acting people compromised to get "something done".

Switzerland used to be and still is a comparably free country. Maybe even freer than the US. But there the pendulum swings in the wrong direction too.

Many European countries east of the former iron curtain seem to care a great deal for freedom. Vaclav Klaus, the current Czech president is a huge free market supporting, liberty lover for example. There is also a very liberty minded Slovakian party that's not unsuccessful.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that also some Baltic countries have one or two great parties.

Then of course there are the more "nationalistic", right-wing, populist parties all over the other countries. I guess you could say they are the European equivalent to the Tea Party. Some liberty rhetoric here and there, anti-EU-bureaucracy (but sadly not really against the same stuff happening on the national stage), but also quite xenophobic.

Those parties seem to hurt more than they help because every liberty minded commentator gets stigmatized by the liberal media to be "one of the bad guys".

Then of course there are good people in the UK like Daniel Hannan and maybe to some extend Nigel Farrage.


I could go on but you might get the impression. It's not that there is absolutely no reception for these ideas. It's more that there's nobody like Ron Paul who is so completely above the typical mainstream. I really hope you people know how grateful you should be to have this man.

But overall I wouldn't say we are in much worse shape, really. Yes there might be more acceptance for income redistribution but on the other hand I'd say that Europe is overall "freer" in regards to civil liberties so that somehow evens out I guess.


But in conclusion if there's one thing I'd like to advise you guys from over the pond it would be: always think "what would Ron Paul do" and don't compromise "to get something done". In the long run it's not worth it to lose all your credibility for minor changes. That was the huge mistake every liberty movement 'til today made. Only a total win is worth the effort.

Demigod
05-26-2012, 05:02 AM
Guess what? I don't want to pay. The sad fact of the matter is that we don't have Ron Paul running for office in Austria or at least a history of liberty. I don't know if you're an US citizen but that's like coming to this forum and write "What's your problem? If the Federal Reserve system is so damaging to your economy, why don't you just shut it down and shut it up?!". I'd love to if I could. But our politicians are only interested in helping out big banks and getting reelected. Sadly they can combine these goals because the general public is completely stupid and the media is bought.

But why do you think that rightwing, nationalistic populists are gaining votes in Austria, the Netherlands, Finnland, Sweden and so on? Because the EU harms them a great deal and while these parties are far from perfect (and by that I mean so far from perfect that I can't even vote for them) they are at least the only ones who are against the EU-worshipping.

The Slovaks had one great, very liberty minded, but also small party in the government that was against these measurments. Because the spineless prime minister didn't have the guts to do what's right she forced a snap election only to lose by leaps and bounds to the opposing Social Democrates (who also voted against the measurments) and to join them as a junior partner. Guess what, their first action in charge was to change their minds and pass the law. This had nothing to do with Germany or France. Do you believe Angela Merkel blackmailed them or hired assassins? Never try to motivate something with maliciousness which could otherwise be explained by sheer stupidity when it comes to government officials.

"Do you think any of that money is ever used for something productive?" How could it be used productive? We're talking about government. But that doesn't mean it is used for bribes. It's used to finance stupid, useless projects in economically underdeveloped regions of europe. Of course there was an enormous amount of waste and in case of countries like Greece also bribery. But you know why? Because the EU gave the money to the people in charge of these projects and you literally can't to anything in Greece without bribes. So is that your prove that the shit that's going on here is only because it's in the interest of the German people to damage weaker economies? To accept that you would have to accept the assumption that the German government acts in interest of it's people. And it doesn't. No government does that.

The German economy does not profite from what's going on in any way. The actions by the French and German government in regards to Greece have nothing to do with the EU or the Euro. The only purpose of them is to save their own banks who are heavily invested in Greece. That's exactly the reason why Great Britain also participated in the Ireland "rescue" although they don't have the same currency. It's all about the banks. And if you believe that the wellbeing of banks is to the advance of the people your completely wrong.

I am from what you call the underdeveloped parts of Europe and those money never get here.Even when we get to use them they come in the form of "experts" or "consultants" who are supposed to teach us how to develop whatever the money were supposed to be used to develop.When rarely money do get used to build bridges or roads always the company then offers the cheapest option never wins.

About the bold part:

They did not do it for the people they did it for the corporations.I don't think that the end result of the German and French polices ( what the Germans did trough regulation to other countries industry the French did it to agriculture) was to destroy the smaller weaker countries but they were just fighting to get their corporations and economies more dominant role in the EU market and with it more profits. What we have today is just the result of that policy.