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Anti Federalist
05-17-2012, 01:55 PM
The ever epic Will Grigg.


If Cops Can't Taze a Pregnant Woman, The Terrorists Will Win

http://www.freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2012/05/if-cops-cant-taze-pregnant-woman.html

Thanks to a misbegotten ruling from a divided Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, police in nine states have been left at an insurmountable disadvantage when dealing with criminal suspects. At least, that’s what we’re told in a legal brief submitted to the Supreme Court by a coalition of police unions.

“It won’t be long before the word spreads through society’s criminal underworld that the Ninth Circuit hasn’t simply given them a `get out of jail free’ card, but a `never have to go to jail in the first place’ card,” warns the amicus brief. Rather than subduing criminals, “police officers will now be forced to walk away from people they have arrested.”

The ruling that is fraught with such awful implications, Brooks v. City of Seattle, involved a patently unnecessary Taser attack upon a woman who was seven months pregnant. The unarmed woman, who was not suspected of a violent crime, posed no threat to the three – yes, three – valiant officers who assaulted her. She was uncooperative, but did not offer any violent resistance.

Her sole “offense” was to refuse a demand that she sign a traffic ticket that was eventually dismissed.

In March 2010, the Ninth Circuit Court found that Seattle Police Officers Steven Daman, Juan Ornelas, and Donald Jones used excessive force when they committed their attack on Brooks and her unborn child – but that they were entitled to “qualified immunity” because the legal precedents dealing with the use of electro-shock torture on a pregnant woman were ambiguous in 2004.

The assailants were thus left in the clear -- but unsatisfied with their victory. With the support of organizations representing tens of thousands of police officers (including some 30,000 SWAT operators), the officers are appealing that ruling to the Supreme Court, claiming that any limitation on the discretionary use of tasers against non-violent “suspects” constitutes an unacceptable restraint on police discretion and a dire threat to that holiest of social considerations, “officer safety.”

In its brief on behalf of the officers, the Los Angeles County Police Chiefs Association (LACPCA) and the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) insist that refusing to allow police to use electro-shock torture against a pregnant woman would fatally undermine the principle of “pain compliance” on which social order – as they pretend to understand it – depends.

On November 23, 2004, Malaika Brooks was taking her son to school when she was stopped by Officer Ornelas, who claimed – wrongly, as it turned out – that she had been speeding. When he presented Brooks with a traffic ticket, she refused to sign it out of the concern that doing so would constitute an admission of guilt. She had done the same during a 1996 traffic stop in which the officer, who possessed some residual decency, simply handed her the little extortion note and walked away.

Ornelas, unfortunately, chose to escalate the encounter by calling for “backup.” A few minutes later, Officer Jones and Sgt. Daman arrived on the scene and began to threaten and berate Brooks. None of this was necessary: The officers were engaging in a tribal display of primate dominance, rather than carrying out a function related in any way to protection of person and property. When they threatened to kidnap – or, as they called it, “arrest” – Brooks, the woman informed them that she was “less than 60 days from having my baby.”

After huddling briefly, the three officers attacked Brooks. Ornelas seized her right arm and -- in the course of less than a minute – inflicted three “drive stun” charges to Brooks’s neck, shoulder, and thigh, an assault that left her with permanent scars. The three officers then dragged Brooks – who had been desperately clinging to the steering wheel, honking the horn, and screaming for help – from the car, threw her face-down and pinned her to the ground. She was handcuffed and then booked on charges of “Refusing to sign” a traffic citation – a misdemeanor – and resisting arrest.

A jury eventually found Brooks guilty of the first “offense,” and acquitted her of the second. The speeding citation was thrown out before Brooks went to court. Brooks filed suit against the officers for assault and violating her civil rights. The officers responded by invoking the well-established – and utterly specious – doctrine of “qualified immunity,” seeking a summary dismissal. The District Court dismissed the assault charge but found that the officers had committed a civil rights violation that nullified their claim to qualified immunity.

The Ninth Circuit reversed that holding as it applied to the defendants, ruling that the officers were protected by qualified immunity and could not be sued by Brooks. However, the Court offered notice that in the future similar taser attacks on non-cooperative but non-violent subjects would constitute excessive force.

In his dissent, Judge Alex Kozinski maintained that Brooks “had shown herself deaf to reason, and moderate physical force had only led to further entrenchment…. Brooks was tying up two line officers, a sergeant and three police vehicles – resources diverted from other community functions – to deal with one lousy traffic ticket.”

Who was responsible for this “diversion” – Mrs. Brooks, who was merely being uncooperative, or Officer Ornelas and his comrades, who needlessly escalated a disagreement over “one lousy traffic ticket” to the point where potentially deadly force was used against someone accused of a trivial traffic offense, rather than an actual crime?

“The officers couldn’t just walk away,” complains Kozinski. “Brooks was under arrest.”

There was no substantive reason why the police couldn’t walk away – if they had been acting as peace officers, that is, rather than as armed enforcers of the revenue-consuming class.

If a police officer has the option of deploying a reliably deadly weapon in a situation of this kind, he also has the option of backing down and letting the court deal with the merits of the citation. But the position claimed by the officers – and accepted, in a qualified sense, by the Ninth Circuit Court – is that anything other than immediate and unqualified submission by a Mundane justifies the infliction of summary punishment by a police officer.

The amicus brief by the LACPCA and NTOA lament that the Ninth Circuit Court, while upholding the unqualified “authority” of police to arrest people at their discretion, “has deprived officers of any lawful way of enforcing that authority, at least when the suspect is not engaged in violence directed towards the officers” and has “unnecessarily limited the amount of force that can be used against a suspect who refrains from using violence against the police” (emphasis added).

What the police unions who filed that brief are demanding is an open-ended grant of unlimited “authority” to use “pain compliance” against people who passively resist abduction by police. The question of using violent means to subdue a violent criminal suspect is not implicated in any way by this case.

In their petition for certiorari, the officers – whose actions, remember, were upheld by the Ninth Circuit Court – complain that the ruling could “prohibit the use of any low-level physical force against an actually resisting suspect who does not present an imminent threat of harm to the officers, a result that could strip law enforcement of any reasonable and practical means of enforcing the law.”

To which a person whose mind is not hostage to totalitarian assumptions would reply: “And the problem with this is…?”

In a reasonably free society, police (actually, peace officers) would not presume to "enforce" the law; they would track down and arrest people plausibly suspected of committing crimes against person and property. They would not be permitted to violate the unconditional law of non-aggression by initiating force, or issue what they assume to be “lawful orders” to people who are not suspected of actual crimes. They certainly would not be permitted to employ “pain compliance” in any situation that didn’t involve legitimate defense against an actual aggressor.

Remarkably, in their amicus brief the officers who committed what should be prosecuted as a felonious assault on Brooks asserted that “it is well established that police officers need not use the least amount of force in effecting an arrest.”

Once again, we’re invited to believe that there would be apocalyptic consequences if police were inhibited in the use of disproportionate force to compel non-violent “suspects” to submit to their supposed authority.

Under the standard prescribed in the amicus briefs filed on behalf of the officers who assaulted Brooks, it’s difficult to find fault with the actions of Beaumont, California Police Officer Enoch Clark.

On February 21, Clark stopped a woman named Monique Hernandez on suspicion of DUI. When Clark tried to handcuff her, Hernandez resisted. Clark’s preferred method of “pain compliance” was a JPX device — a weapon that employs a gunpowder charge to fire a stream of pepper spray at roughly 400 miles an hour.

The JPX weapon is designed for use against armed assailants at a distance of 6 to 15 feet. Its payload of weaponized OC spray is propelled over that distance at less than three one-hundredths of a second, making it (in the words of the company’s promotional literature) “too fast to avoid…. The effect is immediate; there is no chance to resist.”

Clark – a veteran officer and chairman of the local police officers union -- fired his JPX gun into Hernandez’s right temple at a distance of roughly ten inches. The impact shattered the woman’s right eye and inflicted irreparable damage to her left eye as well.

The officer has been indicted on four felony charges. His attorney insists that the officer’s attack was justified in order “to gain compliance and in defense of his person.” If the claims made by and on behalf of the officers who assaulted Mailaka Brooks are sound – if police officers are not legally required to use minimal force when dealing with non-violent “suspects” – it’s difficult to see how Clark’s actions were improper, even though they resulted in Monique Rodriguez being permanently blinded.

“It was Brooks’s recalcitrance and resistance that prompted her treatment,” sniffs the officers’ petition for certiorari. “Under both state and federal law she did not have a right to resist her arrest,” which purportedly means that the officers were permitted – nay, required – to employ “pain compliance” techniques against her until she submitted.

Wouldn’t the same principle apply to the actions of Enoch Clark in dealing with the equally recalcitrant Monique Hernandez? His police union attorney certainly thinks so. And let us not forget that any effort to inhibit the police in their sacred mission to impose order would constitute an existential threat to our society.

Deny an intrepid hero in body armor the option of tasing a pregnant woman – or kicking her in the stomach hard enough to cause the near-term infant to defecate in the womb – a reign of terror will ensue, with the “criminal underworld” arising to devour us all.

Acala
05-17-2012, 01:59 PM
The best way to get the people used to routine tazering is to start them in the womb. I don't know why you object to this. It is for our own good.

tod evans
05-17-2012, 02:02 PM
"Qualified immunity"......the most cowardly, despicable words in american jurisprudence.

phill4paul
05-17-2012, 02:05 PM
"Qualified immunity"......the most cowardly, despicable words in american jurisprudence.

It simply means 'All animals are equal. Some more than others.'

aGameOfThrones
05-17-2012, 02:11 PM
In his dissent, Judge Alex Kozinski maintained that Brooks “had shown herself deaf to reason, and moderate physical force had only led to further entrenchment…. Brooks was tying up two line officers, a sergeant and three police vehicles – resources diverted from other community functions – to deal with one lousy traffic ticket.”

It was her fault!~ judge alex "assh*ole" Kozinski

PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 02:29 PM
The best way to get the people used to routine tazering is to start them in the womb. I don't know why you object to this. It is for our own good.

Grrm.... Hrumph! Yes, quite! For the good of societah!

jkr
05-17-2012, 02:45 PM
cowards playing hero...when can WE play BACK?

Revolution9
05-17-2012, 02:48 PM
It was her fault!~ judge alex "assh*ole" Kozinski

What is with the whatever-ski clan. Bunch of morons to the nth degree. Pretenders..the whole lot.

Rev9

aGameOfThrones
05-17-2012, 03:08 PM
With the support of organizations representing tens of thousands of police officers (including some 30,000 SWAT operators)

Good cops, obviously.

Occam's Banana
05-17-2012, 03:28 PM
The ever epic Will Grigg.

If Cops Can't Taze a Pregnant Woman, The Terrorists Will Win

http://www.freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2012/05/if-cops-cant-taze-pregnant-woman.html

[...]

The amicus brief by the LACPCA and NTOA lament that the Ninth Circuit Court, while upholding the unqualified “authority” of police to arrest people at their discretion, “has deprived officers of any lawful way of enforcing that authority, at least when the suspect is not engaged in violence directed towards the officers” and has “unnecessarily limited the amount of force that can be used against a suspect who refrains from using violence against the police” (emphasis added).

[...]

If any more evidence were needed, this is final proof that "law enforcement" has NOTHING to do with the preservation of civic peace (let alone the protection or defense of lives, liberty or property).

Given that they* could not possibly be any more explicit in their* contempt for those of us who are not one of them*, how will pro-system apologists spin this, I wonder?

I'm sure they'll try, though, no matter how badly they have to warp language & common sense. Where there's a will, there's a way ...

* By "they," "their," & "them," I mean: costumed thugs with badges - or black-robed thugs with gavels (such as the allegedly "honorable" Judge Alex Kozinski).

Acala
05-17-2012, 04:01 PM
For the sake of discussion, assume that this was not over a stupid traffic ticket (another reason government shouldn't be in the road business) but instead the woman had robbed some people? Still not armed in this scenario, but has been identified as the perpetrator by the vicitms. Does that change the analysis?

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 04:14 PM
I know I feel safer now. /grim sarcasm :(

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 04:16 PM
cowards playing hero...when can WE play BACK?
As I understand, it's lawful to resist an unjust arrest. It's just not a wise idea nowadays.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2012, 04:53 PM
For the sake of discussion, assume that this was not over a stupid traffic ticket (another reason government shouldn't be in the road business) but instead the woman had robbed some people? Still not armed in this scenario, but has been identified as the perpetrator by the vicitms. Does that change the analysis?

Not for me, no.

There is no room whatsoever for the concept of "pain compliance".

There were three cops there, in your case, you lay hands on her, cuff her and throw her in the back of the cop car.

The only time lethal force is justified is to end an immediate life threatening attack.

Kelly Thomas got the "pain compliance" treatment.

Anti Federalist
05-17-2012, 04:59 PM
Good cops, obviously.

There are 800,000 active duty cops in the US right now.

5 percent of that 40,000.

We're always being told that it's only five percent or so of the "bad apples" that give all cops a bad name.

Well, lets assume that all 30,000 of the SWAT cops that signed that brief are "bad cops".

Then another 30,000 of regular cops.

That's 60,000.

That means they got every single "bad cop" in the country, plus another 20,000 or more, to sign on to that.

That's pretty impressive petition driving, there.

LOL

tod evans
05-17-2012, 05:10 PM
40k / 50 states is 800 bad cops per state!

[edit]
That's $3,200,000.00 per year aprox. for BAD cops per state!

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 05:23 PM
As I understand, it's lawful to resist an unjust arrest. It's just not a wise idea nowadays.

Hey, AF-got any details about what I was guessing about here? ^^

Anti Federalist
05-17-2012, 05:44 PM
Hey, AF-got any details about what I was guessing about here? ^^

What, specifically?

Like you, I know that in most all states it is lawful to resist an unlawful arrest.

One of the most famous instances of that is the trial of the Waco survivors.

They were all acquitted of felony murder charges, due to the fact that their defense counsel was able to prove that they were, under Texas law, resisting an unlawful use of force against them by the ATF.

But we know how it all turned out.

Resisting an unlawful arrest will likely get you killed.

But I'm convinced it will soon come to a time where all of us will have little choice but to resist.

Kylie
05-17-2012, 05:56 PM
The assailants were thus left in the clear -- but unsatisfied with their victory. With the support of organizations representing tens of thousands of police officers (including some 30,000 SWAT operators), the officers are appealing that ruling to the Supreme Court, claiming that any limitation on the discretionary use of tasers against non-violent “suspects” constitutes an unacceptable restraint on police discretion and a dire threat to that holiest of social considerations, “officer safety.”


If you are such a pussy that you must tazer a pregnant woman rather than punch her in the face and cuff her, then you shouldn't be a cop.

If you are such a pussy that you must tazer, beat and render braindead a mentally handicapped man that you could have punched in the face and cuffed, you shouldn't be a cop.

If you are such a pussy that you tazer puppies that are confined to a kennel, you shouldn't be a cop.




These should be the first questions that are asked on a psych eval for these guys. If they say yes to any of the above, shitcan them.

jmdrake
05-17-2012, 06:07 PM
So do the rights of the unborn include the right not to be tazed? Why aren't the pro-lifers talking about this? because for the national leadership of the pro life movement it's all political ploy for reasons other than ending abortion. If it wasn't then they would support Ron Paul.

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 06:12 PM
What, specifically?

Like you, I know that in most all states it is lawful to resist an unlawful arrest.

One of the most famous instances of that is the trial of the Waco survivors.

They were all acquitted of felony murder charges, due to the fact that their defense counsel was able to prove that they were, under Texas law, resisting an unlawful use of force against them by the ATF.

But we know how it all turned out.

Resisting an unlawful arrest will likely get you killed.

But I'm convinced it will soon come to a time where all of us will have little choice but to resist.
You answered my question perfectly, thnx. :D

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 06:13 PM
If you are such a pussy that you must tazer a pregnant woman rather than punch her in the face and cuff her, then you shouldn't be a cop.

If you are such a pussy that you must tazer, beat and render braindead a mentally handicapped man that you could have punched in the face and cuffed, you shouldn't be a cop.

If you are such a pussy that you tazer puppies that are confined to a kennel, you shouldn't be a cop.




These should be the first questions that are asked on a psych eval for these guys. If they say yes to any of the above, shitcan them.
Well, the "job" of law enforcement tends to attract bullies by its nature-and bullies are pussies inside. :p

heavenlyboy34
05-17-2012, 06:16 PM
So do the rights of the unborn include the right not to be tazed? Where aren't the pro-lifers talking about this? because for the national leadership of the pro life movement it's all political ploy for reasons other than ending abortion. If it wasn't then they would support Ron Paul. +10000000000000000

Anti Federalist
05-17-2012, 06:17 PM
Truth.

+rep


So do the rights of the unborn include the right not to be tazed? Where aren't the pro-lifers talking about this? because for the national leadership of the pro life movement it's all political ploy for reasons other than ending abortion. If it wasn't then they would support Ron Paul.

phill4paul
05-17-2012, 06:21 PM
Hunter S. was right...

“We cannot expect people to have respect for law and order until we teach respect to those we have entrusted to enforce those laws.”
― Hunter S. Thompson

I got NO respect.

Acala
05-18-2012, 02:37 PM
Not for me, no.

There is no room whatsoever for the concept of "pain compliance".

There were three cops there, in your case, you lay hands on her, cuff her and throw her in the back of the cop car.

The only time lethal force is justified is to end an immediate life threatening attack.

Kelly Thomas got the "pain compliance" treatment.

So your position is that no matter how justified the arrest and how violent and effective and prolonged the unarmed resistance to arrest, the only option for the cops is grappeling?

pcosmar
05-18-2012, 02:45 PM
So your position is that no matter how justified the arrest and how violent and effective and prolonged the unarmed resistance to arrest, the only option for the cops is grappeling?

Yes. and any who is incapable of doing so should by no means ever hold the position. Period.

whippoorwill
05-18-2012, 03:06 PM
F!

Anti Federalist
05-18-2012, 03:09 PM
So your position is that no matter how justified the arrest and how violent and effective and prolonged the unarmed resistance to arrest, the only option for the cops is grappeling?

Yes.

Lethal and less lethal use of force is only justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat of loss of life or serious bodily harm.

That's how things used to work under the vertical force continuum. A cop could not shoot a man because he punched him.

That is no longer the case under the circular force continuum. Now a cop can use whatever force he feels like, to ensure "officer safety" and "gain compliance".

Which is the reason for the increasing numbers of unarmed people being shot, pregnant women being tazed and kicked, unarmed homeless being beaten to death and dogs being shot for barking at a cop.

Acala
05-18-2012, 03:25 PM
Yes.

Lethal and less lethal use of force is only justified to stop an imminent and immediate threat of loss of life or serious bodily harm.

That's how things used to work under the vertical force continuum. A cop could not shoot a man because he punched him.

That is no longer the case under the circular force continuum. Now a cop can use whatever force he feels like, to ensure "officer safety" and "gain compliance".

Which is the reason for the increasing numbers of unarmed people being shot, pregnant women being tazed and kicked, unarmed homeless being beaten to death and dogs being shot for barking at a cop.

Interesting. I don't have a preconceived position here. But rules of engagement interest me because I think that is where the action is.

How about a serial murderer who simply runs away and he is too fast for the cops to catch him. Or suppose it is Mike Tyson in his prime? They just let him go? Or do they shoot him?

Putting aside cops for a moment, I don't think if I am attacked that I should be required to grapple with my attacker. I should be able to simply shoot him. And keep shooting him until he stops attacking me. I should not be required to carefully meter out my use of force to use just the bare minimum required to repel the attack. Once the other guy has initiated force, all bets are off and if he takes a bullet, that is HIS fault. He miscalculated. That leads to a MORE peaceful society.

The same for foreign policy. If the country is TRULY minding its own business and its own borders and not messing in the affairs of other nations, but is attacked anyway, retaliation should so swift, so unequivocal, and so ferocious, that people will remember it for generations. That leads to a MORE peaceful world.

So then back to cops. We have authorized cops to affirmatively confront and apprehend people who are a threat to the safety of others. (Of course we have them doing a crap load of things OTHER than this that they shouldn't be doing, but let's ignore this for now and focus on laws most of would agree upon). So if we authorize cops to go after a suspected serial murderer and take him into custody, it is your position that no weapons can be used in that process even if it means the suspect escapes?

By the way, I'm not trying to be contrary here. We are going to agree on all the easy questions, so I like to ask the hard ones where we might not agree.

heavenlyboy34
05-18-2012, 03:30 PM
Interesting. I don't have a preconceived position here. But rules of engagement interest me because I think that is where the action is.

How about a serial murderer who simply runs away and he is too fast for the cops to catch him. Or suppose it is Mike Tyson in his prime? They just let him go? Or do they shoot him?

Putting aside cops for a moment, I don't think if I am attacked that I should be required to grapple with my attacker. I should be able to simply shoot him. And keep shooting him until he stops attacking me. I should not be required to carefully meter out my use of force to use just the bare minimum required to repel the attack. Once the other guy has initiated force, all bets are off and if he takes a bullet, that is HIS fault. He miscalculated. That leads to a MORE peaceful society.

The same for foreign policy. If the country is TRULY minding its own business and its own borders and not messing in the affairs of other nations, but is attacked anyway, retaliation should so swift, so unequivocal, and so ferocious, that people will remember it for generations. That leads to a MORE peaceful world.

So then back to cops. We have authorized cops to affirmatively confront and apprehend people who are a threat to the safety of others. (Of course we have them doing a crap load of things OTHER than this that they shouldn't be doing, but let's ignore this for now and focus on laws most of would agree upon). So if we authorize cops to go after a suspected serial murderer and take him into custody, it is your position that no weapons can be used in that process even if it means the suspect escapes?
Non-lethal force or let him go. (as AF said, non-lethal until a lethal threat exists) Beat cops can always call in a chopper to chase a suspect till he's tired out. If the cop can be judge, jury, and executioner just because he's scared, there's no reason to even pretend to have a "justice" system.

Acala
05-18-2012, 03:42 PM
Non-lethal force or let him go. (as AF said, non-lethal until a lethal threat exists) Beat cops can always call in a chopper to chase a suspect till he's tired out. If the cop can be judge, jury, and executioner just because he's scared, there's no reason to even pretend to have a "justice" system.

I misunderstood. I thought AF said nothing but barehands ever unless the suspect is posing a threat of serious bodily injury or death (essentially the self-defense standard in most states).

Edit: I didn't misundertand - that is what he said.

The problem I see with using the same standard as for self-defense is that a citizen should be trying to avoid trouble and should not be initiating confrontation. But Cops HAVE to look for trouble, initiate confrontation and force. So I'm not sure the same standard applies.

tod evans
05-18-2012, 03:42 PM
The question isn't what you or I would/should/could do, the question is what are our taxpayer dollars paying for.

Acala
05-18-2012, 03:48 PM
Non-lethal force or let him go. (as AF said, non-lethal until a lethal threat exists) Beat cops can always call in a chopper to chase a suspect till he's tired out. If the cop can be judge, jury, and executioner just because he's scared, there's no reason to even pretend to have a "justice" system.

I agree with you. Of course for most people under most circumstances, taser is non-lethal. So you would advocate using a taser in my hypothetical with the killer? (not for the woman in the op)

Anti Federalist
05-18-2012, 03:53 PM
Interesting. I don't have a preconceived position here. But rules of engagement interest me because I think that is where the action is.

How about a serial murderer who simply runs away and he is too fast for the cops to catch him. Or suppose it is Mike Tyson in his prime? They just let him go? Or do they shoot him?

Yes, just let him go.

How do you know he is a serial murderer?

There have been plenty of cases where people have been gunned down by cops, unarmed, who were just running away because they were scared.


Putting aside cops for a moment, I don't think if I am attacked that I should be required to grapple with my attacker. I should be able to simply shoot him. And keep shooting him until he stops attacking me. I should not be required to carefully meter out my use of force to use just the bare minimum required to repel the attack. Once the other guy has initiated force, all bets are off and if he takes a bullet, that is HIS fault. He miscalculated. That leads to a MORE peaceful society

You're not the one initiating force against somebody.

Cops are given a unique status under the law, in that they are allowed to use force against people that, if you or I tried it, we would go to jail.

Therefore, they can and must be held to higher standard of using the pre-emptive force.

To give free reign and "blank check" to use any force they want, whenever they want, which is what we have right now, is recipe for tyranny and death.


The same for foreign policy. If the country is TRULY minding its own business and its own borders and not messing in the affairs of other nations, but is attacked anyway, retaliation should so swift, so unequivocal, and so ferocious, that people will remember it for generations. That leads to a MORE peaceful world.
Same answer.


So then back to cops. We have authorized cops to affirmatively confront and apprehend people who are a threat to the safety of others. (Of course we have them doing a crap load of things OTHER than this that they shouldn't be doing, but let's ignore this for now and focus on laws most of would agree upon). So if we authorize cops to go after a suspected serial murderer and take him into custody, it is your position that no weapons can be used in that process even if it means the suspect escapes?

No lethal or less lethal weapons. No guns, no tazers. Cops performed their duties with fists, nightsticks and handcuffs for decades. No reason they can't now. Course, they might get a punch in the nose back from time to time, but that used to be accepted as just "going with the territory".

Now, if the situation escalates to one with deadly force then they, or course, have the right to defend themselves or others.


By the way, I'm not trying to be contrary here. We are going to agree on all the easy questions, so I like to ask the hard ones where we might not agree.
Didn't take it that way at all.

Glad to answer.

Austrian Econ Disciple
05-18-2012, 03:55 PM
"Qualified immunity"......the most cowardly, despicable words in american jurisprudence.

Which, according to their own framework is illegal in and of itself as it violates Equality before the Law (14th Amendment Section I) - nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. [sic]

Of course they never enforce this part, they like their own 'qualified immunities'. Reminds me of Judge Dredd.

heavenlyboy34
05-18-2012, 04:00 PM
I agree with you. Of course for most people under most circumstances, taser is non-lethal. So you would advocate using a taser in my hypothetical with the killer? (not for the woman in the op)
Edit: I prefer AF's answer now that I think about it:


No lethal or less lethal weapons. No guns, no tazers. Cops performed their duties with fists, nightsticks and handcuffs for decades. No reason they can't now. Course, they might get a punch in the nose back from time to time, but that used to be accepted as just "going with the territory".

Now, if the situation escalates to one with deadly force then they, or course, have the right to defend themselves or others.

Acala
05-18-2012, 04:00 PM
Yes, just let him go.

How do you know he is a serial murderer?

There have been plenty of cases where people have been gunned down by cops, unarmed, who were just running away because they were scared.



You're not the one initiating force against somebody.

Cops are given a unique status under the law, in that they are allowed to use force against people that, if you or I tried it, we would go to jail.

Therefore, they can and must be held to higher standard of using the pre-emptive force.

To give free reign and "blank check" to use any force they want, whenever they want, which is what we have right now, is recipe for tyranny and death.


Same answer.



No lethal or less lethal weapons. No guns, no tazers. Cops performed their duties with fists, nightsticks and handcuffs for decades. No reason they can't now. Course, they might get a punch in the nose back from time to time, but that used to be accepted as just "going with the territory".

Now, if the situation escalates to one with deadly force then they, or course, have the right to defend themselves or others.


Didn't take it that way at all.

Glad to answer.

You convinced me.

And if cops were limited to enforcing laws that everyone agreed should be enforced, rather than all the crap on the books now, the public would HELP apprehend criminals.

Danke
05-18-2012, 04:01 PM
Yes, just let him go.

How do you know he is a serial murderer?

There have been plenty of cases where people have been gunned down by cops, unarmed, who were just running away because they were scared.



You're not the one initiating force against somebody.

Cops are given a unique status under the law, in that they are allowed to use force against people that, if you or I tried it, we would go to jail.

Therefore, they can and must be held to higher standard of using the pre-emptive force.

To give free reign and "blank check" to use any force they want, whenever they want, which is what we have right now, is recipe for tyranny and death.


Same answer.



No lethal or less lethal weapons. No guns, no tazers. Cops performed their duties with fists, nightsticks and handcuffs for decades. No reason they can't now. Course, they might get a punch in the nose back from time to time, but that used to be accepted as just "going with the territory".

Now, if the situation escalates to one with deadly force then they, or course, have the right to defend themselves or others.


Didn't take it that way at all.

Glad to answer.

Seriously. I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone with some of the lawyers here.

heavenlyboy34
05-18-2012, 04:04 PM
Which, according to their own framework is illegal in and of itself as it violates Equality before the Law (14th Amendment Section I) - nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. [sic]

Of course they never enforce this part, they like their own 'qualified immunities'. Reminds me of Judge Dredd.
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs26/PRE/i/2008/095/0/5/I_Am_the_Law_by_The_13th_Doctor.png

Noob
05-18-2012, 04:04 PM
Of course they need to Taze a Pregnant Woman. How else well they enforce a One-Child Policy?

heavenlyboy34
05-18-2012, 04:06 PM
You convinced me.

And if cops were limited to enforcing laws that everyone agreed should be enforced, rather than all the crap on the books now, the public would HELP apprehend criminals.
There was a time when citizens were the primary law enforcers(the "front line" as it were). No reason that can't come back.

Anti Federalist
05-29-2012, 01:53 PM
SCOTUS Denies Cert to Cops Who Tasered a Pregnant Woman

Tuesday, May 29th, 2012

http://www.theagitator.com/2012/05/29/scotus-denies-cert-to-cops-who-tasered-a-pregnant-woman/

Here’s what happened:

The U.S Supreme Court has refused to grant cert in an appeal by Seattle police officers who say they did not use excessive force when they used a Taser stun gun on a pregnant woman.

The court denied cert today, report SCOTUSblog, Reuters and CNN.

The woman, Malaika Brooks, was seven months pregnant when she was pulled over for going 32 miles an hour, 12 miles an hour over the limit in a school speed zone. She refused to sign the ticket and refused to exit her car.

But check the last sentence:

The en banc San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had ruled that police used excessive force, but they had immunity because the law was unclear.

So these cops were already off the hook for damages. They appealed anyway (with support from a number of police organizations), because they wanted the Supreme Court to forever preserve a police officer’s power to Tase pregnant women who drive 12 miles per hour over the speed limit and refuse to sign their speeding tickets.

kathy88
05-29-2012, 02:07 PM
I know I feel safer now. /grim sarcasm :(

I never feel safe enough without an anal cavity search. Maybe that's just me.

tod evans
05-29-2012, 02:13 PM
Legally obviously isn't working.......

Occam's Banana
05-29-2012, 02:17 PM
police used excessive force, but they had immunity because the law was unclear.

And that (apart from the utterly gratuitous tasing) is the most disturbing thing about this - especially the underlined part.

They get the invincibly armored tank of "immunity" - while the rest of us get the laughably impotent fig leaf of "presumed innocence."

CCTelander
05-29-2012, 03:55 PM
And that (apart from the utterly gratuitous tasing) is the most disturbing thing about this - especially the underlined part.

They get the invincibly armored tank of "immunity" - while the rest of us get the laughably impotent fig leaf of "presumed innocence."


You must live in an area with exceptionally good judges and prosecutors. In my not insignificant experience one is almost never presumed innocent by the powers that be. One is almost always required to prove one's innocence to avoid a guilty verdict.

Occam's Banana
05-29-2012, 04:31 PM
You must live in an area with exceptionally good judges and prosecutors. In my not insignificant experience one is almost never presumed innocent by the powers that be. One is almost always required to prove one's innocence to avoid a guilty verdict.

Precisely so! Hence, "laughably impotent fig leaf." :p;)

catdd
05-29-2012, 05:49 PM
Are they intentionally trying to start a violent conflict or are they just that ignorant?

Anti Federalist
05-29-2012, 05:54 PM
Are they intentionally trying to start a violent conflict or are they just that ignorant?

They honestly think that there will never be any push back from the Mundanes.

catdd
05-29-2012, 06:36 PM
They honestly think that there will never be any push back from the Mundanes.

Because they are accustomed to picking us off one-at-a-time. Don't they realize human beings are not mundanes but just as human as they are? Who teaches them?