View Full Version : "I Don't Want to be a Worker Bee" Life is not About Work?
This philosophy challenges the philosophy of western nations. Have we been snookered into being slaves? Working at least 40-50 hour work weeks and then dieing. That is not life. Working a typical job for that many hours a day takes away from what really matters: Your family, friends, and community. The #1 regret of people on their death beds is that they did not spend enough time with their family. No one complains they didn't spend enough time at the office.
I hate to bring this topic up because I will be viewed as a sloth, but the fact is that I believe I see through the matrix. Food is free. Housing is free. Air and water is free. The Amish know this. I remember a famous indian saying the same thing. I cant think of his quote but it goes something like this: The white man is a fool. You slave away all day and you don't enjoy life. We hunted during the day and partied and had sex with our women at night.
From my perspective, Christianity essentially says the same thing: All you need is faith. John 3:16. Life is not work based. It's about faith and family. Why the heck is the mother or the father leaving all day for work without bringing their children along? We are supposed to live our lives with our family. We are supposed to have very tight bonds with our sons and daughters. Not coworkers who also leave their families. Even the Mormons who are quick to say "family first!" spend much more time at work than with any of their family members. Something is terribly wrong with this. This is the root of our ills.
Agorism
05-14-2012, 09:42 PM
Most societies have 6 day work weeks. Only in the west is 5 days on average.
Anti Federalist
05-14-2012, 09:45 PM
The Amish know this.
An average American couldn't even begin to keep up with the amount of work an Amish man does in a day.
Agorism
05-14-2012, 09:46 PM
Amish make life purposely difficult for themselves.
An average American couldn't even begin to keep up with the amount of work an Amish man does in a day.
The Amish haven't been snookered into believing they need to spend their lives working to buy things that don't matter.
Anti Federalist
05-14-2012, 09:55 PM
The Amish haven't been snookered into believing they need to spend their lives working to buy things that don't matter.
Ah, now that much is true.
So, I won't get scoffed at for driving a 25 year old truck or using a 15 year old cel phone, or having no toys?
sparebulb
05-14-2012, 10:02 PM
Ah, now that much is true.
So, I won't get scoffed at for driving a 25 year old truck or using a 15 year old cel phone, or having no toys?
Not to derail very far, but your network lets you use a 15 year old cell phone?
Ah, now that much is true.
So, I won't get scoffed at for driving a 25 year old truck or using a 15 year old cel phone, or having no toys?
I think the point is that relationships with family and friends is what matters. How many boys and girls didn't grow up with a father or mother because they were busy at the office? Oh, but dad and mom spent a little time with them at night and during the weekends and that makes up for it? Sure.
Anti Federalist
05-14-2012, 10:08 PM
Not to derail very far, but your network lets you use a 15 year old cell phone?
Yup.
An i700 Motorola. Nextel/Sprint
To be strictly accurate 14 years, this model was released in 1998 IIRC.
Anti Federalist
05-14-2012, 10:09 PM
I think the point is that relationships with family and friends is what matters. How many boys and girls didn't grow up with a father or mother because they were busy at the office? Oh, but dad and mom spent a little time with them at night and during the weekends and that makes up for it? Sure.
Reason to homeschool # 2,398
heavenlyboy34
05-14-2012, 10:10 PM
Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
heavenlyboy34
05-14-2012, 10:12 PM
An average American couldn't even begin to keep up with the amount of work an Amish man does in a day.
qft.
HigherVision
05-14-2012, 10:14 PM
This philosophy challenges the philosophy of western nations. Have we been snookered into being slaves? Working at least 40-50 hour work weeks and then dieing. That is not life. Working a typical job for that many hours a day takes away from what really matters: Your family, friends, and community. The most common regret dieing people have is that they did not spend enough time with their family. No one complains they didn't spend enough time at the office.
I hate to bring this topic up because I will be viewed as a sloth, but the fact is that I believe I see through the matrix. Food is free. Housing is free. Air and water is free. The Amish know this. I remember a famous indian saying the same thing. I cant think of his quote but it goes something like this: The white man is a fool. You slave away all day and you don't enjoy life. We hunted during the day and partied and had sex with our women at night.
From my perspective, Christianity essentially says the same thing: All you need is faith. John 3:16. Life is not work based. It's about faith and family. Why the heck is the mother or the father leaving all day for work without bringing their children along? We are supposed to live our lives with our family. We are supposed to have very tight bonds with our sons and daughters. Not coworkers who also leave their families. Even the Mormons who are quick to say "family first!" spend much more time at work than with any of their family members. Something is terribly wrong with this. This is the root of our ills.
So go try to live your life in the way you see fit. If not working much is your goal then so be it. Give it a shot. But if it doesn't work out and you still have to work don't use force to make someone else subsidize your lifestyle. I have a feeling that's what you're really getting at.
Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
As long as you spend your days raising your children and not at what you do?
heavenlyboy34
05-14-2012, 10:17 PM
As long as you spend your days raising your children and not at what you do?
If raising kids is what you love to do, do that. :) I dunno how you could afford it unless you have a lot of savings before having kids. /shrugs
So go try to live your life in the way you see fit. If not working much is your goal then so be it. Give it a shot. But if it doesn't work out and you still have to work don't use force to make someone else subsidize your lifestyle. I have a feeling that's what you're really getting at.
This isn't about being a bum.
mport1
05-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
Unfortunately, finding a way to get paid for doing what you love is the hard part. Especially if you want to make enough to provide a comfortable life for a family.
rockerrockstar
05-14-2012, 10:32 PM
I thought about this too. We go so many unemployed people but yet have so many workers being over worked. They system is skewed. We need a more balanced life and to increase quality of life. We need more stable jobs and economy too. The question is what is the best way to do that and to make more of us prosper. What can we do to make a better place for us all to live and work. I will consider all options. Let's discuss.
The politicians should address the number of jobs and quality of jobs. The middle class is being destroyed. Our living standards are being lowered. We should consider what is happening and think about how to prevent this and how to rebound from it.
Anti Federalist
05-14-2012, 10:36 PM
Unfortunately, finding a way to get paid for doing what you love is the hard part. Especially if you want to make enough to provide a comfortable life for a family.
Actually, I ought to consider myself very lucky.
I get paid very well, for doing what, even after thirty years, I still enjoy doing.
thoughtomator
05-14-2012, 10:39 PM
Truth is, if you are not materialist and are capable of learning skills as you need them, you can enjoy a very nice quality of life for very little money.
ryanmkeisling
05-14-2012, 10:39 PM
Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
QFT. +rep.
Indy Vidual
05-14-2012, 10:40 PM
Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
+1,000,000,000 plus one Billion
ShaneEnochs
05-14-2012, 10:43 PM
Actually, I ought to consider myself very lucky.
I get paid very well, for doing what, even after thirty years, I still enjoy doing.
What do you do?
ryanmkeisling
05-14-2012, 10:44 PM
Unfortunately, finding a way to get paid for doing what you love is the hard part. Especially if you want to make enough to provide a comfortable life for a family.
There is nothing hard about it. Focus on what you want and make it your reality. Don't quit until you have accomplished your goal(s) whatever it may take. The minute you think it hard it becomes so.
If raising kids is what you love to do, do that. :) I dunno how you could afford it unless you have a lot of savings before having kids. /shrugs
As long as they are not your kids so you can get that money right? :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgWTpM-nrnQ&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYzSiE2Qwc&feature=context-chv
I think the point is that relationships with family and friends is what matters. How many boys and girls didn't grow up with a father or mother because they were busy at the office? Oh, but dad and mom spent a little time with them at night and during the weekends and that makes up for it? Sure.
Reason to homeschool # 2,398
This is part of why the traditional family structure is designed the way it is, with one person sacrificing themselves to provide for their family by working all the time and not seeing their family much, which frees the other person to be able to sacrifice themselves for the family by being able to be there for the family while the other person cannot, to raise the children, and other vital household work that keeps the family able to function as a unit.
Please note that I am not trying to say that people of certain genders should do certain things. I am only explaining that the problem you bring up -- not being able to be there for the family due to work -- is addressed by the traditional family model to a degree.
You would be sacrificing yourself for the family and thus not see them much yourself, but it is the only way to provide for them.
I recognize both that work is valuable, and also that toiling away day after day just for a place to stay and a meal seems like the biggest waste of time ever when our time would be better spent on religious activities to try to get out of this material world, which is the purpose of this life. However, the Lord recommends to do your prescribed duty according to your nature, and as a grihastha (householder), part of that duty is to provide for the family. He recommends to continue to act, but to do so without attachment.
It is somewhat of a problem that the cost of basic necessities dictates dedicating more time toward work than religious activity, though.
To reiterate, my point has nothing to do about being "lazy" and everything to do about an efficient and valuable use of time.
Here's some scripture to give reference to some of the concepts I am referring to:
Chapter 2, Verse 47. (http://www.asitis.com/2/47.html) You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.
Purport: As far as prescribed duties are concerned, they can be fitted into three subdivisions, namely routine work, emergency work and desired activities. Routine work, in terms of the scriptural injunctions, is done without desire for results. As one has to do it, obligatory work is action in the mode of goodness. Work with results becomes the cause of bondage; therefore such work is not auspicious. Everyone has his proprietary right in regard to prescribed duties, but should act without attachment to the result; such disinterested obligatory duties doubtlessly lead one to the path of liberation.
Chapter 2, Verse 48. (http://asitis.com/2/48.html)
Be steadfast in yoga, O Arjuna. Perform your duty and abandon all attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called yoga.
Chapter 2, Verse 49. (http://asitis.com/2/49.html)
O Dhananjaya, rid yourself of all fruitive activities by devotional service, and surrender fully to that consciousness. Those who want to enjoy the fruits of their work are misers.
Chapter 2, Verse 50. (http://asitis.com/2/50.html)
A man engaged in devotional service rids himself of both good and bad actions even in this life. Therefore strive for yoga, O Arjuna, which is the art of all work.
Chapter 3, Verse 4. (http://www.asitis.com/3/4.html) Not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection.
Chapter 5, Verse 1. (http://www.asitis.com/5/1.html) Arjuna said: O Krsna, first of all You ask me to renounce work, and then again You recommend work with devotion. Now will You kindly tell me definitely which of the two is more beneficial?
Chapter 5, Verse 2. (http://www.asitis.com/5/2.html) The Blessed Lord said: The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service is better than renunciation of works.
Chapter 18, Verse 56. (http://asitis.com/18/56.html) Though engaged in all kinds of activities, My devotee, under My protection, reaches the eternal and imperishable abode by My grace.
Chapter 18, Verse 57. (http://asitis.com/18/57.html) In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.
Chapter 18, Verse 58. (http://asitis.com/18/58.html) If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditional life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.
Canto 5, Chapter 5, Verse 4. (http://vedabase.net/sb/5/5/4/en) When a person considers sense gratification the aim of life, he certainly becomes mad after materialistic living and engages in all kinds of sinful activity. He does not know that due to his past misdeeds he has already received a body which, although temporary, is the cause of his misery. Actually the living entity should not have taken on a material body, but he has been awarded the material body for sense gratification. Therefore I think it not befitting an intelligent man to involve himself again in the activities of sense gratification by which he perpetually gets material bodies one after another.
Canto 5, Chapter 5, Verse 5. (http://vedabase.net/sb/5/5/5/en) As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma (Translation: work, action), his mind is called karmātmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear, and as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body.
Canto 5, Chapter 5, Verse 6. (http://vedabase.net/sb/5/5/6/en) When the living entity is covered by the mode of ignorance, he does not understand the individual living being and the supreme living being, and his mind is subjugated to fruitive activity. Therefore, until one has love for Lord Vāsudeva*, who is none other than Myself, he is certainly not delivered from having to accept a material body again and again. *One of the countless names of the Supreme Lord.
Agorism
05-15-2012, 01:54 AM
Most mammals on this planet live day to day. Their entire mission for the day is to make sure they have enough food until the next day.
That's how most of the world lives with the exception of the West, and that's why most work at least 6 days a week.
kuckfeynes
05-15-2012, 02:04 AM
As long as you're not demanding government assistance, who cares how lazy or productive you are? There's no standard for happiness...
Dogsoldier
05-15-2012, 03:06 AM
I know exactly what you are talking about.I think the way to deal with this issue is to restore property rights.All rights derive from property.If you have to pay a tax on property then you don't own it in the first place.This is a communist idea.If you truly own your land then it doesnt matter if you lose your job or get injured and can't work you still have your home base to live and the Government can't take it away.Everyone needs a solid base to stand on.As it is now if you don't pay your taxes then you lose the property and your out in the street.Thats where the Government has you by the balls cause now you are forced to be a tax cow.
Travlyr
05-15-2012, 03:22 AM
I thought about this too. We go so many unemployed people but yet have so many workers being over worked. They system is skewed. We need a more balanced life and to increase quality of life. We need more stable jobs and economy too. The question is what is the best way to do that and to make more of us prosper. What can we do to make a better place for us all to live and work. I will consider all options. Let's discuss.
The politicians should address the number of jobs and quality of jobs. The middle class is being destroyed. Our living standards are being lowered. We should consider what is happening and think about how to prevent this and how to rebound from it.
That is what Ron Paul is talking about with sound money. If our money was real, then as people work, they could accumulate real savings. The way it is under fiat money, if one saves money today, then inflation makes it worth less each day. The key is respect for property rights and honest sound money. If we were using sound money under respected property rights, then anyone could get by on three or four hours of honest work per day... maybe even less.
That is what Ron Paul is talking about with sound money. If our money was real, then as people work, they could accumulate real savings. The way it is under fiat money, if one saves money today, then inflation makes it worth less each day. The key is respect for property rights and honest sound money. If we were using sound money under respected property rights, then anyone could get by on three or four hours of honest work per day... maybe even less.
Great point. And when you add in the amount in taxes taken directly out one's compensation for labor, which is literally time stolen from your labor, working so long for diminishing returns seems quite futile -- especially compared to how it could be with a better system.
Because of the tax system alone, we work 3-4 months out of the year worth of extra hours that goes straight to the government, we never even see it. All of those are hours that we could be relieved of because there is no result (compensation) to the labor, or we could instead be receiving the full employer negotiated compensation in exchange for our labor instead of a portion of the employer negotiated amount.
We work roughly 1/4th of the year as an uncompensated government employee (what does involuntarily uncompensated labor imply?), and for the other 3/4th, our government is generous enough to allow us to be compensated for our labor.
Then add the inflation of the money supply and you can see how we're struggling to do more work for less.
Paul Fan
05-15-2012, 04:44 AM
We work too hard because we've allowed others to steal from us using the power of the state. Stop the stealing, and everyone can decide for themselves how hard to work. Alternatively, drop your own income down so you are below the tax threshold. Many people are doing this which is why the rest are being taxed even more.
asurfaholic
05-15-2012, 04:57 AM
I dunno. I work hard at work.. being an electrician is not easy work.
But when im off with my baby (8mo).. man, THAT'S hard work. Little princess gets into everything. Forget baby toys, she wants cords, the big book off the shelf, oh my I could go on forever... the dogs water dish...
Point is, I like work. Love my baby, but work is 68 hours a week I can spend being productive.
moostraks
05-15-2012, 07:01 AM
I think it is the term "work" that has to be argued. Trust me, home with the children (I have 8) is work. The Amish work.(and btw some of them buy some stupid stuff too if you ever get behind them in Walmart you would see this!) Materialism and marketing drive a person to spend time away from their loved ones to get shiny new toys as functionable obsolence makes them d.o.a. as soon as you spend the paycheck to buy them. So lesson learned would be buy what you need not what you are being marketed to as "needing".
For us the traditional family model works as we don't ever have to worry about overlapping schedules and who is going to be late to work because they had to wait for someone else to get there to care for the children. However, it is possible to have both adults work outside of the home and try to have opposing schedules. Might be tough on the marriage or could be an absence makes the heart grow fonder situation.(Was a time when extended families were much stronger and one could depend on them for assistance and companionship, ah well) Life is what you make of it. Too many people spend their days saying I can't when usually it is a scenario of wanting something else too much to be willing to sacrifice for what you claim to be wanting.
my two cents worth...
Agorism
05-15-2012, 07:05 AM
There are jobs out there that are very cushy, but most most of them are difficult to achieve and take some time to get to.
But if that's your goal, you could work extremely hard for 10 years or whatever it is, and then take it easy once you get there (if your goal is a cushy job that is)
Noble Savage
05-15-2012, 07:21 AM
its hard to collect tax revenue from a satisfied mind
What the dollar should really say "In Stuff We Trust"
We use to be strong individualist now we are as packaged as the meat we eat.
Believe this from one who knows its not a home of 15 years to the sheriff, its just his job and when his job leaves you with no place to stay, family gets tight.
There are families out there living under bridges in campers and tents and cars growing tougher and more resilient by the day and the fat cat rich elite are getting soft like butter and will melt when the heat comes down
dirtdigger
05-15-2012, 07:31 AM
This philosophy challenges the philosophy of western nations. Have we been snookered into being slaves? Working at least 40-50 hour work weeks and then dieing. That is not life.
This is because of paper currency. With gold as the currency, you can actually save money and lead a very comfortable life by working hard once in a while. In the system of paper currency which continuously depreciates, you need to keep working till you die and you will still feel insecure.
Dogsoldier
05-15-2012, 08:19 AM
So how about after this campaign is over we start a "Restore property rights" group or movement?
Danke
05-15-2012, 08:20 AM
What do you do?
He's a piano player in a whorehouse.
Exiled_LFOD
05-15-2012, 08:43 AM
He's a piano player in a whorehouse.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81542886/
kcchiefs6465
05-15-2012, 09:28 AM
Living to die. Though I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone. As long as your kids are fed and happy- all worth-while.
Anti Federalist
05-15-2012, 10:03 AM
He's a piano player in a whorehouse.
I rustle the hookers in my spare time as well.
http://aleasemichelle.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83485dd5869e2014e8963a00a970d-550wi
oyarde
05-15-2012, 10:52 AM
Do not wish to be the worker bee ? Amazon Ants raid Formica Ants and steal the unhatched babies and return them with the Amazon's and make slaves of them when they are born.......
stuntman stoll
05-15-2012, 01:56 PM
People do not work for the sake of work. They work so they can consume. If you don't want to work much/hard; fine, then you just shouldn't expect to consume much. But be sure the thank those who do work harder/smarter than average, for they are the reason that so many products and services are available to the common man.
And the thread starter is dead wrong. Everything has a market price except for air and salt water (if you live by the ocean).
As long as you're not demanding government assistance, who cares how lazy or productive you are? There's no standard for happiness...
This really isn't about producing anything by means of work. It so happens that work removes fathers and mothers from their children. The hunting indian is an excellent example. Im pretty sure it was commonplace for indians to bring their sons along with them to learn the ropes of life and develop deep bonds with their fathers. There is a reason why children intrinsically hate to see their parents leave for work or being abandoned at a school away from their parents. It goes against nature and there is a reason for it.
People do not work for the sake of work. They work so they can consume. If you don't want to work much/hard; fine, then you just shouldn't expect to consume much. But be sure the thank those who do work harder/smarter than average, for they are the reason that so many products and services are available to the common man.
And the thread starter is dead wrong. Everything has a market price except for air and salt water (if you live by the ocean).
You aren't even scratching the surface. You should know something about the demand curve. Why do you think it has been proven that corporations saturate our youth with debauchery and consumerism? Do you think rap music and its imagery is a mistake? Why is rap music being pushed as opposed to music that creates an intrinsic demand to find that one and only for marriage, children, and staying faithful to your wife and family? The Federal Reserve practices the same concepts. Now apply the demand curve to that. Food, water and shelter are free. Scratch beyond the surface on that too and think about it.
TheBlackPeterSchiff
05-15-2012, 10:53 PM
We make ourselves work so hard. I busted my ass to get my first Plasma TV, only the toss it for an LCD after a few year.
Only thing I wish is I wasnt so glamored by material possessions. If I could live in a decent home somewhere, riding bikes, wearing simple clothing and eating mostly self grown food I wouldnt have to work as much as I do.
heavenlyboy34
05-15-2012, 10:54 PM
This really isn't about producing anything by means of work. It so happens that work removes fathers and mothers from their children. The hunting indian is an excellent example. Im pretty sure it was commonplace for indians to bring their sons along with them to learn the ropes of life and develop deep bonds with their fathers. There is a reason why children intrinsically hate to see their parents leave for work or being abandoned at a school away from their parents. It goes against nature and there is a reason for it.
I loved to see my dad go to work. He's an asshole to this day. ;)
smartguy911
05-15-2012, 11:05 PM
I like working as long I am working for myself :-). I think if you are doing a job that you hate, yes you will regret everything. The goal should be to find a job or business that you truly enjoy.
DamianTV
05-15-2012, 11:21 PM
And if government would actually let us start up new businesses, many of us would be in business for ourselves, and not someone elses slaves where we work for a pittance of the ammt of labor we provide.
I thought about this too. We go so many unemployed people but yet have so many workers being over worked. They system is skewed. We need a more balanced life and to increase quality of life. We need more stable jobs and economy too. The question is what is the best way to do that and to make more of us prosper. What can we do to make a better place for us all to live and work. I will consider all options. Let's discuss.
Deregulate everything and don't charge income tax.
There is nothing hard about it. Focus on what you want and make it your reality. Don't quit until you have accomplished your goal(s) whatever it may take. The minute you think it hard it becomes so.
Agreed. No one ever said living your dreams was easy (actually it's always extremely difficult in the beginning).
DamianTV
05-16-2012, 12:51 AM
People often say "they dont have a choice". They ALWAYS have a Choice.
But the Choice they have to make is between what is Right and what is Easy.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 08:09 AM
You aren't even scratching the surface. You should know something about the demand curve. Why do you think it has been proven that corporations saturate our youth with debauchery and consumerism? Do you think rap music and its imagery is a mistake? Why is rap music being pushed as opposed to music that creates an intrinsic demand to find that one and only for marriage, children, and staying faithful to your wife and family? The Federal Reserve practices the same concepts. Now apply the demand curve to that. Food, water and shelter are free. Scratch beyond the surface on that too and think about it.
What the hell are you talking about? Food, water and shelter are not free. Land is now a limited resource, so it has a market price. But even if there were still land for homesteading, those things at the least take labor to acquire. Labor = Money. They are convertible.
Now for your other point, people don't buy stuff for the sake of buying stuff (except for hoarders) they buy stuff because they want/need it. Advertising is a vehicle for business and consumer to come together and get the consumer what they want. No business chooses to push something that the consumer does not want (when they do, it is in error).
And last, regarding your problem with rap music: The bling/cocky persona that goes with it is just a long running meme. It was there before rap went mainstream.
moostraks
05-16-2012, 08:21 AM
What the hell are you talking about? Food, water and shelter are not free. Land is now a limited resource, so it has a market price. But even if there were still land for homesteading, those things at the least take labor to acquire. Labor = Money. They are convertible.
Now for your other point, people don't buy stuff for the sake of buying stuff (except for hoarders) they buy stuff because they want/need it. Advertising is a vehicle for business and consumer to come together and get the consumer what they want. No business chooses to push something that the consumer does not want (when they do, it is in error).And last, regarding your problem with rap music: The bling/cocky persona that goes with it is just a long running meme. It was there before rap went mainstream.
addressing bolded part only:Really? So you think that there isn't anything nefarious in the manner in which we are marketed certain products? You have got to be kidding me...
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 09:03 AM
An average American couldn't even begin to keep up with the amount of work an Amish man does in a day.
True, but the kind of work the Amish do is, no doubt, much more fulfilling than the kind of work we do. Life is knowing your work is having an effect on the world around you, and not slaving for the corporations so that somebody else get riches and somebody else enjoys the effects of your work.
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 09:05 AM
Amish make life purposely difficult for themselves.
I will defend the Amish here. They make life difficult because it's not supposed to be easy. We think life is hard when we have to spend life in an office for meager pay while our work makes someone else happy and someone else rich. The work the Amish do is fulfilling and I think it probably adds to their sense of enjoyment of life and their time off, although I can't say for sure because I have never been Amish.
fletcher
05-16-2012, 09:22 AM
This thread reminds me of The Faint video that was banned from MTV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv8mJfDPxuA&ob=av2n
As I lay to die the things I think
Did I waste my time, I think I did
I worked for life
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 09:23 AM
This is because of paper currency. With gold as the currency, you can actually save money and lead a very comfortable life by working hard once in a while. In the system of paper currency which continuously depreciates, you need to keep working till you die and you will still feel insecure.
Major +rep on that one. Keep telling it like it is.
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 09:34 AM
What the hell are you talking about? Food, water and shelter are not free. Land is now a limited resource, so it has a market price. But even if there were still land for homesteading, those things at the least take labor to acquire. Labor = Money. They are convertible.
Now for your other point, people don't buy stuff for the sake of buying stuff (except for hoarders) they buy stuff because they want/need it. Advertising is a vehicle for business and consumer to come together and get the consumer what they want. No business chooses to push something that the consumer does not want (when they do, it is in error).
And last, regarding your problem with rap music: The bling/cocky persona that goes with it is just a long running meme. It was there before rap went mainstream.
But many corrupt businesses with power do push aggressive advertising campaigns that make us want stuff we don't need and then sell that stuff for a profit. I'm not arguing against the market. I'm arguing for awareness.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 09:42 AM
addressing bolded part only:Really? So you think that there isn't anything nefarious in the manner in which we are marketed certain products? You have got to be kidding me...
No. Any other point of view is conceding that there should be central planners and moral police regulating the speech of business men.
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 09:46 AM
No. Any other point of view is conceding that there should be central planners and moral police regulating the speech of business men.
Not really. You can simply advocate awareness of all this, as I do. I don't try to act like the existence of market forces means everyone who participates in it is morally upright.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 09:52 AM
But many corrupt businesses with power do push aggressive advertising campaigns that make us want stuff we don't need and then sell that stuff for a profit. I'm not arguing against the market. I'm arguing for awareness.
But businesses don't push things that they know the public doesn't want. They offer a product or service that they think the public will want, and only then will spend money on spreading the awareness of that product. In a way, the consumer has the power, and businesses are slaves to the whims, desires, and needs of the consumer.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Not really. You can simply advocate awareness of all this, as I do. I don't try to act like the existence of market forces means everyone who participates in it is morally upright.
You're the exception to the rule
oyarde
05-16-2012, 10:04 AM
Most mammals on this planet live day to day. Their entire mission for the day is to make sure they have enough food until the next day.
That's how most of the world lives with the exception of the West, and that's why most work at least 6 days a week. Correct
oyarde
05-16-2012, 10:07 AM
What do you do? AF ,is an oil tycoon , the Occupy people are protesting him :)
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 02:22 PM
But businesses don't push things that they know the public doesn't want. They offer a product or service that they think the public will want, and only then will spend money on spreading the awareness of that product. In a way, the consumer has the power, and businesses are slaves to the whims, desires, and needs of the consumer.
Uh, no. You are not listening. First, they create the demand, then they fill said demand.
For the large part, yes, most small businesses start out doing what you mentioned, but large companies can promote a desire by telling people how such and such a product will make their lives easier, as well as make them more popular and sexy. Have you ever heard of subliminal messages? This is a great example.
PaulConventionWV
05-16-2012, 02:24 PM
You're the exception to the rule
Here's what you said earlier:
Any other point of view is conceding that there should be central planners and moral police regulating the speech of business men.
All I was doing is pointing out that I am not conceding that there should be central planners. It's not a hard and fast rule. People can choose to argue that some big companies are corrupt without conceding that there should be central planners. The market doesn't make everyone pure of heart.
QuickZ06
05-16-2012, 02:32 PM
I work to live, not live to work. The rest of my time is enjoying life with friends and family and trying to leave this world in better shape than when I was brought into it.
soulcyon
05-16-2012, 02:41 PM
The most productive countries have the longest vacations (America's is 2-week average).
moostraks
05-16-2012, 02:54 PM
No. Any other point of view is conceding that there should be central planners and moral police regulating the speech of business men.
bull chips..You said that when businesses push something a consumer doesn't want it is in error and now you want to claim any other point demands moral police and central planners. Fear monger much? Why is it not a personal responsibility to realize that many companies are corrupt in playing to the weaknesses of human character? You act like businesses are all saints and/or people of virtue. They are people trying to make a profit and susceptible to the same weaknesses as any other human being as that is whom they are comprised of. In the pursuit of profit many large businesses employ savvy agencies which often provide a marketing campaign which feeds off of people's fears and insecurities. It is what it is, and knowledgable consumers are aware of this. Don't polish poop and then sell it with fear.
eta this isn't even tackling what delightful businesses such as the insurance companies or vaccine makers do by corrupting governments into mandating purchases of their products.
ProIndividual
05-16-2012, 03:55 PM
This is why I play poker for a living...screw schedules, bosses, working to make someone else rich, and conforming to social standards that aren't about not harming or defrauding others.
Not everyone can play pro poker...but trust me, there is a way to get by without work if you really want to. But be warned, it isn't easy...you'll WORK to get to a point that you don't work. I spent over a year reading 10-12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week, about gambling, money management, poker, etc...and that only prepared me for ONE particular game expertise (No Limit Hold Em).
And you're still at the mercy of the state. They outlawed online poker in the USA like a bunch of tyrants just when I was starting to do well for myself...hence why I'm leaving the country, most likely permanently (except to return for the WSOP). So plan for the unexpected, and understand there won't be any social security to fall back on. Be prepared to save like 1.2 -2 million dollars on your own to retire on and cover your future medical expenses.
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 04:15 PM
You're not going to improve the lot of people unless you work as hard as you possibly can to take advantage of whatever talents and skills nature has granted you. You owe it to humanity to be as productive as possible, and to then put the fruit of your labor to effective, virtue-oriented work.
heavenlyboy34
05-16-2012, 04:22 PM
The most productive countries have the longest vacations (America's is 2-week average).
Is that so? :eek: I'd like to see proof of that. /intrigued
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 04:22 PM
Uh, no. You are not listening. First, they create the demand, then they fill said demand.
For the large part, yes, most small businesses start out doing what you mentioned, but large companies can promote a desire by telling people how such and such a product will make their lives easier, as well as make them more popular and sexy. Have you ever heard of subliminal messages? This is a great example.
That is absolute hogwash. You're blaming the corporation and giving a pass to the dumbass who has no control over his sub-conscious desires. Do you buy stupid crap to make you feel better about you? My guess is that you do not. Why don't you believe others are capable of the same?
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Uh, no. You are not listening. First, they create the demand, then they fill said demand.
For the large part, yes, most small businesses start out doing what you mentioned, but large companies can promote a desire by telling people how such and such a product will make their lives easier, as well as make them more popular and sexy. Have you ever heard of subliminal messages? This is a great example.
All I was doing is pointing out that I am not conceding that there should be central planners. It's not a hard and fast rule. People can choose to argue that some big companies are corrupt without conceding that there should be central planners. The market doesn't make everyone pure of heart.
bull chips..You said that when businesses push something a consumer doesn't want it is in error and now you want to claim any other point demands moral police and central planners. Fear monger much? Why is it not a personal responsibility to realize that many companies are corrupt in playing to the weaknesses of human character? You act like businesses are all saints and/or people of virtue. They are people trying to make a profit and susceptible to the same weaknesses as any other human being as that is whom they are comprised of. In the pursuit of profit many large businesses employ savvy agencies which often provide a marketing campaign which feeds off of people's fears and insecurities. It is what it is, and knowledgable consumers are aware of this. Don't polish poop and then sell it with fear.
eta this isn't even tackling what delightful businesses such as the insurance companies or vaccine makers do by corrupting governments into mandating purchases of their products.
You people are thinking just like socialists except that you claim a different means to the end (awareness instead of govt intervention)
You look for a problem where there isn't one. You misdiagnose it. And the solutions (through govt intervention) only do harm.
Have you ever heard of "buyer beware"? Do you think people are so dumb that they buy everything they see a commercial for whether or not they need it?
Lets say I decide to start a hot dog stand where there was no hot dog stand. I would not put money into start-up or marketing if I didn't think there would be a demand for hot dogs at that particular corner. After I put up the stand I will use all sorts of persuasion to get people to buy my hot dogs. I will have posters of beautiful people eating hot dogs. I will use shiny things to get people's attention. I will tell people they look hungry. Is not all of that OK? It's freedom of speech for fuc's sake. All is fair and well as long as no one is forced to do anything and I don't use fraud (advertise 12" dogs and deliver 6", imply that they are edible and fill them with arsenic, etc.)
What the hell are you talking about? Food, water and shelter are not free. Land is now a limited resource, so it has a market price. But even if there were still land for homesteading, those things at the least take labor to acquire. Labor = Money. They are convertible.
Now for your other point, people don't buy stuff for the sake of buying stuff (except for hoarders) they buy stuff because they want/need it. Advertising is a vehicle for business and consumer to come together and get the consumer what they want. No business chooses to push something that the consumer does not want (when they do, it is in error).
And last, regarding your problem with rap music: The bling/cocky persona that goes with it is just a long running meme. It was there before rap went mainstream.
Maybe some people refuse to dig deeper into the reality that is force fed to them? I don't believe you are far enough advanced in the area of business and the matrix if you fail to understand the relationship of the demand curve and how corporations/governments use it to create slaves and the breakdown of the family unit.
Cowlesy
05-16-2012, 04:59 PM
Sitting in my office right now after getting crushed with a 4:30PM absolute-world-stops-unless-we-finish-this-asap project, wishing I could be dancing through the meadow singing "la-dee-dah-dee-dahhhhh"....
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 05:05 PM
Maybe some people refuse to dig deeper into the reality that is force fed to them? I don't believe you are far enough advanced in the area of business and the matrix if you fail to understand the relationship of the demand curve and how corporations/governments use it to create slaves and the breakdown of the family unit.
We owe it to everyone around us to live a life absent want. We should lead by example and show others that satisfaction is attainable through friends, family, charity, loyalty, hardwork and a commitment to better ourselves in every way possible. That's how you Break The Matrix. You overcome id. You overcome the base-self. In doing so you might open the eyes of others, who in turn might do the same to others still.
You're missing the point if you think that corporations/governments/entities/people who play on what it means to be human are the biggest concern. WE our the concern. If we change how we think, those who wish to take advantage of our simplicity won't be able to do so.
MelissaWV
05-16-2012, 05:10 PM
I like what I do.
When I didn't like what I did, I changed it. If I no longer find that I can do what I'm doing, and be fine with it, then I will change what I am doing.
This is shockingly difficult for other people, and I've never really understood why. There are usually a bunch of "but but but" excuses related to financial obligations --- obligations that the person willingly took on. Credit cards, cable, gadgets of all kinds... but whining that half their paycheck seems to fly out the window to support their "standard of living." If you can't be flexible, then yes, you're going to be stuck in your worker bee life. Again, I don't understand why people do that to themselves, but they do.
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 05:10 PM
For what it's worth, public relations -which is just built on an understanding of humanity- isn't bad. It's reality. Acknowledging that it exists and that it is not evil is an important part in overcoming human frailty.
PierzStyx
05-16-2012, 05:12 PM
The Amish haven't been snookered into believing they need to spend their lives working to buy things that don't matter.
But that is very different from NOT working at all.
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 05:13 PM
I like what I do.
When I didn't like what I did, I changed it. If I no longer find that I can do what I'm doing, and be fine with it, then I will change what I am doing.
This is shockingly difficult for other people, and I've never really understood why. There are usually a bunch of "but but but" excuses related to financial obligations --- obligations that the person willingly took on. Credit cards, cable, gadgets of all kinds... but whining that half their paycheck seems to fly out the window to support their "standard of living." If you can't be flexible, then yes, you're going to be stuck in your worker bee life. Again, I don't understand why people do that to themselves, but they do.
That's true, but a person does reach stations in his life when he has financial obligations. A man must, unquestionably, provide for himself and his family.
Which reminds me of a funny generalization one of my favorite comedians once made: "A man has obligations. A woman has.... options."
pcgame
05-16-2012, 05:14 PM
..
MelissaWV
05-16-2012, 05:16 PM
That's true, but a person does reach stations in his life when he has financial obligations. A man must, unquestionably, provide for himself and his family.
Which reminds me of a comedic generalization one of my favorite comedians once made: "A man has obligations. A woman has.... options."
I have plenty of obligations, I'm just not stupid. I can tell when I no longer want to do something, and I move along to something else. That's not to say I quit every time I have a bad day. I notice you included a family, which I'm sure you were there for the conception of. That is yet another debt to chain oneself to, then cry "worker bee" syndrome later. Even still, the amount of money that needs to go to "supporting" your family is probably far less than the average person makes it out to be. That's their choice, but all it does is remove options.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 05:19 PM
Maybe some people refuse to dig deeper into the reality that is force fed to them?
No one is forced to think anything. Their actions may be forced by govt/criminals, but people have free will
I don't believe you are far enough advanced in the area of business...
I've started three
... and the matrix...
WTF?
...if you fail to understand the relationship of the demand curve and how corporations/governments use it to create slaves and the breakdown of the family unit.
I know what the demand curve is. So are you saying that in general, there are too many products and the price too low, or are you saying that there are too few products and the price too high? Either way you're wrong and to do anything to influence it with force is evil.
For example, it has been proven that rap music purposely creates a demand for consumerism, fame, fortune, the breakdown of the family etc. The purpose our lives is to now become a slave in order to obtain those meaningless things. Create a good beat and insert the brainwashing lyrics that they have been told to sing. How many songs brainwash listeners into obtaining money, wealth, and bling? Here are lyrics to a typical Jayz or little wayne song: "Money, money, money, money, money, hoes, bitches, drugs, get it, get it, get it, get it...make it rain." Is it no mistake that rap music is also saturated with satanic and Illuminati symbolism whos goal is to create a slave society. All of this is blatantly obvious with just about every rap song.
How do impressionable young kids legally obtain these things that they have been brainwashed into wanting? They become slaves and if anyone gets in their way they are "haters." Meanwhile, there is zero demand created for the things that really matter in life and what most of us really want: Love, meaning, and deep personal relationships with friends and family. Sounds like an excellent way to breakdown a society for the benefit of corporations and central banksters.
stuntman stoll
05-16-2012, 05:47 PM
For example, it has been proven that rap music purposely creates a demand for consumerism, fame, fortune, the breakdown of the family etc. The purpose our lives is to now become a slave in order to obtain those meaningless things. Create a good beat and insert the brainwashing lyrics that they have been told to sing. How many songs brainwash listeners into obtaining money, wealth, and bling? Here are lyrics to a typical Jayz or little wayne song: "Money, money, money, money, money, hoes, bitches, drugs, get it, get it, get it, get it...make it rain." Is it no mistake that rap music is also saturated with satanic and Illuminati symbolism whos goal is to create a slave society. All of this is blatantly obvious with just about every rap song.
How do impressionable young kids legally obtain these things that they have been brainwashed into wanting? They become slaves and if anyone gets in their way they are "haters." Meanwhile, there is zero demand created for the things that really matter in life and what most of us really want: Love, meaning, and deep personal relationships with friends and family. Sounds like an excellent way to breakdown a society for the benefit of corporations and central banksters.
Moving on to a new topic because you got spanked on the last one?
Ok, I'll bite. Rap is like any other fad in "art." There is no evil conspiracy that brought it about. The nature of the "art" of yelling poetry into a mic over a heavy beat with repetitive music fits perfectly with a cocky persona. Nobody chose that, it just is what it is. The cocky persona means showing that you're "better" than others (banging better broads, having better cars, having more money, etc.) That persona has been linked with rap from beginning before it was mainstream. Since then, no one has forced people to listen to it. People just have because they like the catchy hooks, heavy beats, etc. The music industry, seeing that a lot of people like rap, put more effort and money into producing and distributing it.
People listen to it because they like it. If you don't like it, then don't listen to it.
Vessol
05-16-2012, 05:50 PM
So there was no demand for consumerism, fame, or fortune before rap? Not at any time in history?
Well, shit.
Edit: Usually when you italicize that something has been proven, you should usually provide a source.
Edit2: Ah yes, the classic age old "argument" of, if you disagree with me, you are brainwashed.
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 05:52 PM
Here I was thinking that I liked money because it made life easier and better and good looking women because they excited me. It was rap all along!
Vessol
05-16-2012, 05:57 PM
Maybe some people refuse to dig deeper into the reality that is force fed to them? I don't believe you are far enough advanced in the area of business and the matrix if you fail to understand the relationship of the demand curve and how corporations/governments use it to create slaves and the breakdown of the family unit.
You didn't even address a single point that stuntman stoll brought up.
Food and shelter is not free. In order to obtain both, you have to use your labor. In order to obtain more complex versions of both, it either requires a large amount of labor from you and others, or you can exchange your labor used in other endeavors, through a medium of exchange(currency), and obtain it.
If you're arguing for an ascetic lifestyle, then you should practice what you preach and rid yourself of the most anti-spartan object of all, your personal computer.
dannno
05-16-2012, 05:58 PM
Yup.
An i700 Motorola. Nextel/Sprint
To be strictly accurate 14 years, this model was released in 1998 IIRC.
I have an iphone because my work pays for it and being able to browse the web while being out and about is awesome..
But my personal phone while only half your age also doesn't have the GPS shit attached to it. I kept it for that reason until I had a good enough reason (free smartphone) not to do so.
Im not the one to blame when you're reflecting on life on your death bed wishing you spent more time with your sons and daughters.
Vessol
05-16-2012, 06:03 PM
Im not the one to blame when you're reflecting on life on your death bed wishing you spent more time with your sons and daughters.
What about those who do not have children? Or daughters? Or sons? Or just one son and one daughter?
MelissaWV
05-16-2012, 06:05 PM
What about those who do not have children? Or daughters? Or sons? Or just one son and one daughter?
Then he's not to blame when you're wondering why you didn't do whatever you wanted to do most, which you likely would still not have done if you had worked a different job.
You didn't even address a single point that stuntman stoll brought up.
Food and shelter is not free. In order to obtain both, you have to use your labor. In order to obtain more complex versions of both, it either requires a large amount of labor from you and others, or you can exchange your labor used in other endeavors, through a medium of exchange(currency), and obtain it.
If you're arguing for an ascetic lifestyle, then you should practice what you preach and rid yourself of the most anti-spartan object of all, your personal computer.
Why are you attacking me? Of course you would have to labor or pay someone to get shelter, water, or food. They are free in the sense that it comes from the earth. They are not exclusively man made. GE doesn't have a monopoly on water, wood, or food.
What about those who do not have children? Or daughters? Or sons? Or just one son and one daughter?
Did I say something that personally offended you?
Vessol
05-16-2012, 06:10 PM
Then he's not to blame when you're wondering why you didn't do whatever you wanted to do most, which you likely would still not have done if you had worked a different job.
Heh, why would I blame him anyways? I'll sit there on my deathbed shaking my fist going "Damn you AGRP on Ron Paul Forums! Damn you!".
I imagine that everyone has regrets and what-if moments, the best way that I feel to live life is through my values and desires. Desires can be any multitude of things.
Did I say something that personally offended you?
Not in the least. I just like to debate and probe people's minds.
Heh, why would I blame him anyways? I'll sit there on my deathbed shaking my fist going "Damn you AGRP on Ron Paul Forums! Damn you!".
I imagine that everyone has regrets and what-if moments, the best way that I feel to live life is through my values and desires. Desires can be any multitude of things.
Not in the least. I just like to debate and probe people's minds.
You're blaming me for something people have needed for eons before creation of flat screen tvs. For whatever reason you refuse to knowledge the basic needs of human life like I offended you. Do you prefer love or blow up dolls and shinny metal objects?
MelissaWV
05-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Oh I know, and that was my point; it's unlikely we'd blame some dude on the internet for anything.
Though, here's an idea: You have zero way of knowing what your absolutely final thought on this planet will be. Barring some sort of thought related to your impending doom, it could be some random vision of something you did in 3rd grade, or a music video, or some post on RPF, or a movie clip, or a nice sunset, or remembering your significant other saying something lovely, or that time you smashed your finger really hard. MAYBE we're all cursed to remember this thread with our final spark of life.
dannno
05-16-2012, 06:40 PM
Oh I know, and that was my point; it's unlikely we'd blame some dude on the internet for anything.
Though, here's an idea: You have zero way of knowing what your absolutely final thought on this planet will be. Barring some sort of thought related to your impending doom, it could be some random vision of something you did in 3rd grade, or a music video, or some post on RPF, or a movie clip, or a nice sunset, or remembering your significant other saying something lovely, or that time you smashed your finger really hard. MAYBE we're all cursed to remember this thread with our final spark of life.
You've obviously never done DMT.
Vessol
05-16-2012, 07:03 PM
You're blaming me for something people have needed for eons before creation of flat screen tvs. For whatever reason you refuse to knowledge the basic needs of human life like I offended you. Do you prefer love or blow up dolls and shinny metal objects?
I don't know about blow-up dolls. Shiny metal objects do however do make me pretty happy, particularly silver and gold. I like the idea of holding something that I can always count on to be a medium of exchange.
Oh I know, and that was my point; it's unlikely we'd blame some dude on the internet for anything.
Though, here's an idea: You have zero way of knowing what your absolutely final thought on this planet will be. Barring some sort of thought related to your impending doom, it could be some random vision of something you did in 3rd grade, or a music video, or some post on RPF, or a movie clip, or a nice sunset, or remembering your significant other saying something lovely, or that time you smashed your finger really hard. MAYBE we're all cursed to remember this thread with our final spark of life.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20061125.gif
LibForestPaul
05-16-2012, 07:43 PM
People here believe in consumerism. That it is people deciding they want stuff. Wrong...
this explains in detail...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zPkTItOXuN0#!
If those in power, force expenses on you, such as increased health care costs, increased property taxes, increased social security taxes, increased food prices, increased pensions of government workers. You have a choice in this matter? No.
Far more than 1/4 of your labor is stolen. That is only what is easily seen. We are all working longer and harder because those at the top demand more, and they have the guns and the people willing to use them as needed against us.
1stAmendguy
05-16-2012, 07:52 PM
Edit: don't feel articulate enough to try an express Wilber's ideas.
KingNothing
05-16-2012, 08:09 PM
You didn't even address a single point that stuntman stoll brought up.
Food and shelter is not free. In order to obtain both, you have to use your labor. In order to obtain more complex versions of both, it either requires a large amount of labor from you and others, or you can exchange your labor used in other endeavors, through a medium of exchange(currency), and obtain it.
If you're arguing for an ascetic lifestyle, then you should practice what you preach and rid yourself of the most anti-spartan object of all, your personal computer.
I don't think that they should lose sight of the fact that being productive is one of the things that makes human, human. It's also one of the things that allows us to care for and help others.
You've got to have a good work-life balance, but working 50 or 60 hours a week through certain phases of your life is NOT a bad thing. It's one of the ways to get the most out of your life.
Brian4Liberty
05-16-2012, 08:52 PM
Yin and yang. Sometimes it takes hard work to fully appreciate time off. And there is no substitute for the satisfaction of accomplishing something.
mport1
05-16-2012, 09:10 PM
Uh, no. You are not listening. First, they create the demand, then they fill said demand.
For the large part, yes, most small businesses start out doing what you mentioned, but large companies can promote a desire by telling people how such and such a product will make their lives easier, as well as make them more popular and sexy. Have you ever heard of subliminal messages? This is a great example.
I disagree. Even large corporations are extremely concerned with understanding what the consumer wants and providing it to them. That is the most effective way to achieving long term growth and profitability. Corporations are trying to understand the market and how to meet the demands of consumers so they can sell higher volumes of goods at larger premiums.
I work for a consulting firm that specializes in developing growth strategies centered around understanding consumer demand. Corporations pay us and many other firms like us millions and millions of dollars for this kind of work. They are constantly tracking the market, talking to consumers, and trying to develop products that they think will be successful. Trying to create demand and create products to meet it is a much more costly and risky endeavor that many companies try to avoid (if they're being managed well).
moostraks
05-17-2012, 06:57 AM
You people are thinking just like socialists except that you claim a different means to the end (awareness instead of govt intervention)
You look for a problem where there isn't one. You misdiagnose it. And the solutions (through govt intervention) only do harm.
Have you ever heard of "buyer beware"? Do you think people are so dumb that they buy everything they see a commercial for whether or not they need it?
Lets say I decide to start a hot dog stand where there was no hot dog stand. I would not put money into start-up or marketing if I didn't think there would be a demand for hot dogs at that particular corner. After I put up the stand I will use all sorts of persuasion to get people to buy my hot dogs. I will have posters of beautiful people eating hot dogs. I will use shiny things to get people's attention. I will tell people they look hungry. Is not all of that OK? It's freedom of speech for fuc's sake. All is fair and well as long as no one is forced to do anything and I don't use fraud (advertise 12" dogs and deliver 6", imply that they are edible and fill them with arsenic, etc.)
Again bull...and stop with the loaded wording (ie socialists) Buyer beware is an arcane idea when the government educates the majority of society and the schools allow corporations (for a price) to come in and assist with their captive audience. Then there is the social engineers in social services who have been raised in a subpar system that will demand parents to provide children with certain items because they must be mainstreamed. Step outside of the norm in some areas by not allowing something such as television (even if you tolerate videos) because you want to remove the influence of the 24-7 marketing that you feel is oversexualized and you will get targeted and be demanded to bring the children back into the fold. Don't even try to open your mouth to claim this is not true because I wear the war wounds to prove it. You might be allowed to be Amish in Ohio but you sure cannot be Mennonite in Alabama.(not in the NE part anyways if you have children....)
Turn on the television, open a magazine as a female with the eyes of an aware consumer and it is shocking how as women we are supposed to be skinny, not one gray hair, sexy, organic food providers who work while never letting an item go askew in our homes and be ready for sex at moments notice. Then step out in the world with a society that sees this thrust at them over and over again and try to buck the trend. I don't die my hair. I am prematurely gray. I got my first gray hair at 13. I have been asked so many times I lost count whether I am grandmother of my children. My last child will be 1 the end of June. This will drive even the most secure woman to look at the hair dye just to shut people up and not make their children feel like freaks.
Don't own a cellphone? People act like you sprout horns on your head. I have wanted to get rid of my land line and I can only imagine the havoc that would cause. When we got rid of cable a few years back the people at the cable company were aghast and asked what we would do, uhm...read? Talk to the people in our homes? Go to Best Buy and the marketers there ask do you have cable or satellite. What about neither?Want to raise your children to wear clothing outside of the normal trends being marketed? Be prepared to defend your choices for not mainstreaming your children as you will be viewed as some perv cultists. Again don't tell me what I have experienced is not true. Want to provide a non-standard housing choice for your family? Again be aware of who knows. Want to use cash instead of credit for your purchases? Well you might just be a terrorist.
And to whom is the benefit to control society by making all these types of choices seem like the people stepping outside of the norm are pervs or terrorists? CORPORATIONS and the industries they operate in. As for your fear mongering, wrongheaded argument that the only solutions are to get more government interventions are again polishing poop and selling it with fear. The problem is the fact that corporations have bought the government and we got sold out. I want an end to agencies such as department of education and social services precisely because of the corrupt nature of them and how devastating the effects of the collusion of corporate and government agencies on the family.
moostraks
05-17-2012, 07:15 AM
I disagree. Even large corporations are extremely concerned with understanding what the consumer wants and providing it to them. That is the most effective way to achieving long term growth and profitability. Corporations are trying to understand the market and how to meet the demands of consumers so they can sell higher volumes of goods at larger premiums.
I work for a consulting firm that specializes in developing growth strategies centered around understanding consumer demand. Corporations pay us and many other firms like us millions and millions of dollars for this kind of work. They are constantly tracking the market, talking to consumers, and trying to develop products that they think will be successful. Trying to create demand and create products to meet it is a much more costly and risky endeavor that many companies try to avoid (if they're being managed well).
CFR and Bilderberg...
phill4paul
05-17-2012, 07:26 AM
I remember a famous indian saying the same thing. I cant think of his quote but it goes something like this: The white man is a fool. You slave away all day and you don't enjoy life. We hunted during the day and partied and had sex with our women at night.
If this is the quote you are referencing....
• When the white man discovered this country Indians were running it. No taxes no debt, women did all the work White man thought he could improve on a system like this.
~ Old Cherokee Saying
then your just going about work the wrong way. :p
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 07:41 AM
That is absolute hogwash. You're blaming the corporation and giving a pass to the dumbass who has no control over his sub-conscious desires. Do you buy stupid crap to make you feel better about you? My guess is that you do not. Why don't you believe others are capable of the same?
Whether or not they are capable is irrelevant. They have been culled into this mindset by, you guessed it, the companies and corporations that tell you it's what's best in life. We know better, but ignorance is easily taken advantage of by those looking to make a profit. I'm not saying all corporations are evil, and I'm not saying all people are dumb, but it is enough to where it can be extremely effective. I advocate the free market because it is way better than government controlled markets, but that doesn't mean all who participate in business must, by their very definition, have pure intentions and be angels.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 07:46 AM
You people are thinking just like socialists except that you claim a different means to the end (awareness instead of govt intervention)
You look for a problem where there isn't one. You misdiagnose it. And the solutions (through govt intervention) only do harm.
Have you ever heard of "buyer beware"? Do you think people are so dumb that they buy everything they see a commercial for whether or not they need it?
Lets say I decide to start a hot dog stand where there was no hot dog stand. I would not put money into start-up or marketing if I didn't think there would be a demand for hot dogs at that particular corner. After I put up the stand I will use all sorts of persuasion to get people to buy my hot dogs. I will have posters of beautiful people eating hot dogs. I will use shiny things to get people's attention. I will tell people they look hungry. Is not all of that OK? It's freedom of speech for fuc's sake. All is fair and well as long as no one is forced to do anything and I don't use fraud (advertise 12" dogs and deliver 6", imply that they are edible and fill them with arsenic, etc.)
Oh yeah, that's all fine and completely legal. But don't fool yourself into thinking that this means there is no such thing as consumerism, which is constantly promoted by large companies looking to expand the market for any good or service imagineable. At the time, it may seem like a good idea, but not all goods and services are actually necessary. I am simply not trying to fool myself into thinking that everything that results from free market advertising and consumer demand is absolutely pure and good. You know full well that there are a lot of dumb people out there who simply listen to desires when it really isn't a good idea. Doesn't mean the government should be involved. It just means the market isn't this shining example of human perfection. There is no such thing as human perfection.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 07:56 AM
No one is forced to think anything. Their actions may be forced by govt/criminals, but people have free will
I've started three
WTF?
I know what the demand curve is. So are you saying that in general, there are too many products and the price too low, or are you saying that there are too few products and the price too high? Either way you're wrong and to do anything to influence it with force is evil.
Nobody is saying anything about force, so you can just drop that little line. I don't see why you keep bringing it up when we have both told you we favor the free market. How hard is it, however, to realize that there is too much stuff, period? Do you really think EVERYTHING that is produced these days is absolutely necessary for living a fulfilling life? We have become coddled by people trying to fulfill our deepest human desires. News flash, sometimes people don't always want what's best for them. You think the world is perfect, which is absurd on its face. If all the market demands were completely legitimate, then why do people cry out for more government? Have you ever heard of propaganda? It's more than just a government thing.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:00 AM
So there was no demand for consumerism, fame, or fortune before rap? Not at any time in history?
As far as I can tell, no. Not nearly as much as there is today. People always wanted stuff, but they were way more practical in there considerations than we are today.
pcosmar
05-17-2012, 08:05 AM
"Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,"
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."
I made a decision long ago,, that I did not want to work myself to death. (as I had seen others do)
I am not at all opposed to work,, and still do even though not "gainfully employed". I have always tried to strike a balance between work, play, and leisure.
I have lost all,, or left all, a couple times in my lifetime. and started over with nothing.
Presently Own my home and land.
Find the balance.
3 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:08 AM
Heh, why would I blame him anyways? I'll sit there on my deathbed shaking my fist going "Damn you AGRP on Ron Paul Forums! Damn you!".
I imagine that everyone has regrets and what-if moments, the best way that I feel to live life is through my values and desires. Desires can be any multitude of things.
Not in the least. I just like to debate and probe people's minds.
Ok, here's how it is:
Fact 1: People desire things that are not good for them. Hence, obesity.
Fact 2: This desire can be propagandized and sensationalized to where it creates a demand in order to expand the market.
Fact 3: Corporations will do anything to exploit the desires and demands of the people to make money.
Therefore, people have been culled into thinking they need things that they really don't because it satisfies their desire to be cool and accepted in society. Marketing creates the perception that somesuch product or service makes you cool and accepted, and then everyone needs it all of a sudden. It's a manufactured demand. It's part of the free market. The free market, therefore, does not equate with the epitome of resourcefulness and efficiency.
tod evans
05-17-2012, 08:11 AM
A simple solution is not to work for corporations, be self employed.
Ok, here's how it is:
Fact 1: People desire things that are not good for them. Hence, obesity.
Fact 2: This desire can be propagandized and sensationalized to where it creates a demand in order to expand the market.
Fact 3: Corporations will do anything to exploit the desires and demands of the people to make money.
Therefore, people have been culled into thinking they need things that they really don't because it satisfies their desire to be cool and accepted in society. Marketing creates the perception that somesuch product or service makes you cool and accepted, and then everyone needs it all of a sudden. It's a manufactured demand. It's part of the free market. The free market, therefore, does not equate with the epitome of resourcefulness and efficiency.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:13 AM
Ying and yang. Sometimes is takes hard work to fully appreciate time off. And there is no substitute for the satisfaction of accomplishing something.
*Yin and yang, not ying and yang.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:15 AM
I disagree. Even large corporations are extremely concerned with understanding what the consumer wants and providing it to them. That is the most effective way to achieving long term growth and profitability. Corporations are trying to understand the market and how to meet the demands of consumers so they can sell higher volumes of goods at larger premiums.
I work for a consulting firm that specializes in developing growth strategies centered around understanding consumer demand. Corporations pay us and many other firms like us millions and millions of dollars for this kind of work. They are constantly tracking the market, talking to consumers, and trying to develop products that they think will be successful. Trying to create demand and create products to meet it is a much more costly and risky endeavor that many companies try to avoid (if they're being managed well).
Ok, so where did all the demand for the useless junk that we see today come from? You must admit there is a ridiculously large demand for useless junk, and stuff that hurts us.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:19 AM
Again bull...and stop with the loaded wording (ie socialists) Buyer beware is an arcane idea when the government educates the majority of society and the schools allow corporations (for a price) to come in and assist with their captive audience. Then there is the social engineers in social services who have been raised in a subpar system that will demand parents to provide children with certain items because they must be mainstreamed. Step outside of the norm in some areas by not allowing something such as television (even if you tolerate videos) because you want to remove the influence of the 24-7 marketing that you feel is oversexualized and you will get targeted and be demanded to bring the children back into the fold. Don't even try to open your mouth to claim this is not true because I wear the war wounds to prove it. You might be allowed to be Amish in Ohio but you sure cannot be Mennonite in Alabama.(not in the NE part anyways if you have children....)
Turn on the television, open a magazine as a female with the eyes of an aware consumer and it is shocking how as women we are supposed to be skinny, not one gray hair, sexy, organic food providers who work while never letting an item go askew in our homes and be ready for sex at moments notice. Then step out in the world with a society that sees this thrust at them over and over again and try to buck the trend. I don't die my hair. I am prematurely gray. I got my first gray hair at 13. I have been asked so many times I lost count whether I am grandmother of my children. My last child will be 1 the end of June. This will drive even the most secure woman to look at the hair dye just to shut people up and not make their children feel like freaks.
Don't own a cellphone? People act like you sprout horns on your head. I have wanted to get rid of my land line and I can only imagine the havoc that would cause. When we got rid of cable a few years back the people at the cable company were aghast and asked what we would do, uhm...read? Talk to the people in our homes? Go to Best Buy and the marketers there ask do you have cable or satellite. What about neither?Want to raise your children to wear clothing outside of the normal trends being marketed? Be prepared to defend your choices for not mainstreaming your children as you will be viewed as some perv cultists. Again don't tell me what I have experienced is not true. Want to provide a non-standard housing choice for your family? Again be aware of who knows. Want to use cash instead of credit for your purchases? Well you might just be a terrorist.
And to whom is the benefit to control society by making all these types of choices seem like the people stepping outside of the norm are pervs or terrorists? CORPORATIONS and the industries they operate in. As for your fear mongering, wrongheaded argument that the only solutions are to get more government interventions are again polishing poop and selling it with fear. The problem is the fact that corporations have bought the government and we got sold out. I want an end to agencies such as department of education and social services precisely because of the corrupt nature of them and how devastating the effects of the collusion of corporate and government agencies on the family.
I agree, except I don't think corporations have bought the government. It's the other way around.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:20 AM
A simple solution is not to work for corporations, be self employed.
Which is exactly what I plan to do... right after I have saved enough money by working for the corporations.
tod evans
05-17-2012, 08:22 AM
Which is exactly what I plan to do.
Good for you!
I've been self employed for most of my life and although it's often feast or famine I wouldn't trade it for a salaried position.
mport1
05-17-2012, 08:38 AM
Ok, so where did all the demand for the useless junk that we see today come from? You must admit there is a ridiculously large demand for useless junk, and stuff that hurts us.
People want that crap. That is why companies make it. If there stops being a demand for the product, heavily advertising it to continuously push it can only do so much. Eventually companies will move to produce other goods more heavily demanded by consumers.
moostraks
05-17-2012, 08:55 AM
People want that crap. That is why companies make it. If there stops being a demand for the product, heavily advertising it to continuously push it can only do so much. Eventually companies will move to produce other goods more heavily demanded by consumers.
So corporations do not lobby the government or work at controling public policy?
pcosmar
05-17-2012, 09:04 AM
People want that crap. .
Why?
Noble Savage
05-17-2012, 09:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMiv4o3XByA&feature=fvwrel
Domalais
05-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Ok, so where did all the demand for the useless junk that we see today come from? You must admit there is a ridiculously large demand for useless junk, and stuff that hurts us.
Our productivity is now so much greater than what we need to sustain ourselves that we can use that excess productivity to get useless junk. This was not true when real income was lower.
cheapseats
05-17-2012, 10:22 AM
In my educated and considered opinion, American "Activists" who buy into slash settle for WE'LL GET 'EM IN 2016 are not only enlisting to be Worker Bees, but also to be VOLUNTEER ACTIVIST BEES in their "spare" time.
People want that crap. That is why companies make it. If there stops being a demand for the product, heavily advertising it to continuously push it can only do so much. Eventually companies will move to produce other goods more heavily demanded by consumers.
Your thought process is disconnecting propaganda and a legitimate need or want in terms of legitimate business. You don't think we needed to go to war with Iraq or Libya do you? Faux News, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, CNN, etc. simply gave the people what they wanted?
Brian4Liberty
05-17-2012, 11:32 AM
*Yin and yang, not ying and yang.
Lol. Thanks.
Ender
05-17-2012, 12:12 PM
According to the ancient Toltecs, man is here to play.
Play is where children learn the most- fall down, get back up, find a better way.
We are all slaves to a system that is The Matrix; never been a truer film, IMHO.
This does not mean that we don't work- it means that we do OUR work, the work that we love and enjoy and/or that sustains us.
cheapseats
05-17-2012, 08:14 PM
In my educated and considered opinion, American "Activists" who buy into slash settle for WE'LL GET 'EM IN 2016 are not only enlisting to be Worker Bees, but also to be VOLUNTEER ACTIVIST BEES in their "spare" time.
I would also mention that VOLUNTEERING = FREE LABOR undermines Market Principles.
The Politicking & Campaigning sector of the U.S. economy is NOTHING, if not Big Business.
PaulConventionWV
05-17-2012, 08:34 PM
Our productivity is now so much greater than what we need to sustain ourselves that we can use that excess productivity to get useless junk. This was not true when real income was lower.
Yeah, which brings me to the point I was trying to make, which is that the market doesn't just fulfill legitimate needs. The market is at least partially responsible for the rise in sedentary lifestyles and our break from a mindset of survival and practicality. We no longer have that. Some people's lives are so hopelessly fueled by more stuff that they can't possibly survive without the latest gadgets, and like an animal, they will eat right out of the hands of these large corporations who will gladly feed their every human desire and make their lives drab and dull without them even realizing it.
EDIT: I must add that I would be completely okay with this if the government wasn't involved. All I want is for the government to get out of my life so I can rant in the public square and not be arrested for "disorderly conduct". Okay, maybe I wouldn't rant in the public square, but I would definitely speak out if I were given a forum to disseminate my ideas.
The point is, I am fine with this consumerist mindset as long as I still have my freedom, and as long as there are others like me. I simply stress to people that the market isn't the key to unlocking heaven. There will always be dishonest business practices, even if not illegal ones, and there will always be sheep-like consumers because the market doesn't guarantee that there will not be widespread demand for stuff that hurts us and stuff that completely undermines the idea of consuming for sustenance rather than the idle want of a large portion of the masses.
flynn
05-17-2012, 09:04 PM
a job is a discount for a long term productivity you will be producing via the sale of your labour, skills, and experience.
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