New video released of police beating Kelly Thomas to death (graphic photo in thread)

[kylejack]

Another video has just been released of the horrifying beating death by Fullerton CA police of Kelly Thomas.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8r33VHT46c

More at the PINAC blog: http://www.pixiq.com/article/shocking-video-of-kelly-thomas-released-watch-with-caution

http://i.imgur.com/DuV3r.jpg

[Bosco Warden]

When Should You Shoot A Cop


That question, even without an answer, makes most “law-abiding taxpayers” go into knee-jerk conniptions. The indoctrinated masses all race to see who can be first, and loudest, to proclaim that it is NEVER okay to forcibly resist “law enforcement.” In doing so, they also inadvertently demonstrate why so much of human history has been plagued by tyranny and oppression.

In an ideal world, cops would do nothing except protect people from thieves and attackers, in which case shooting a cop would never be justified. In the real world, however, far more injustice, violence, torture, theft, and outright murder has been committed IN THE NAME of “law enforcement,” than has been committed in spite of it. To get a little perspective, try watching a documentary or two about some of the atrocities committed by the regimes of Stalin, or Lenin, or Chairman Mao, or Hitler, or Pol Pot, or any number of other tyrants in history. Pause the film when the jackboots are about to herd innocent people into cattle cars, or gun them down as they stand on the edge of a ditch, and THEN ask yourself the question, “When should you shoot a cop?” Keep in mind, the evils of those regimes were committed in the name of “law enforcement.” And as much as the statement may make people cringe, the history of the human race would have been a lot LESS gruesome if there had been a lot MORE “cop-killers” around to deal with the state mercenaries of those regimes.

People don’t mind when you point out the tyranny that has happened in other countries, but most have a hard time viewing their OWN “country,” their OWN “government,” and their OWN “law enforcers,” in any sort of objective way. Having been trained to feel a blind loyalty to the ruling class of the particular piece of dirt they live on (a.k.a. “patriotism”), and having been trained to believe that obedience is a virtue, the idea of forcibly resisting “law enforcement” is simply unthinkable to many. Literally, they can’t even THINK about it. And humanity has suffered horribly because of it. It is a testament to the effectiveness of authoritarian indoctrination that literally billions of people throughout history have begged and screamed and cried in the face of authoritarian injustice and oppression, but only a tiny fraction have ever lifted a finger to actually try to STOP it.

Even when people can recognize tyranny and oppression, they still usually talk about “working within the system”–the same system that is responsible for the tyranny and oppression. People want to believe that ”the system” will, sooner or later, provide justice. The last thing they want to consider is that they should “illegally” resist–that if they want to achieve justice, they must become “criminals” and “terrorists,” which is what anyone who resists “legal” injustice is automatically labelled. But history shows all too well that those who fight for freedom and justice almost always do so “illegally”–i.e., without the permission of the ruling class.

If politicians think that they have the right to impose any “law” they want, and cops have the attitude that, as long as it’s called “law,” they will enforce it, what is there to prevent complete tyranny? Not the consciences of the “law-makers” or their hired thugs, obviously. And not any election or petition to the politicians. When tyrants define what counts as “law,” then by definition it is up to the “law-breakers” to combat tyranny.
Pick any example of abuse of power, whether it is the fascist “war on drugs,” the police thuggery that has become so common, the random stops and searches now routinely carried out in the name of “security” (e.g., at airports, “border checkpoints” that aren’t even at the border, “sobriety checkpoints,” and so on), or anything else. Now ask yourself the uncomfortable question: If it’s wrong for cops to do these things, doesn’t that imply that the people have a right to RESIST such actions? Of course, state mercenaries don’t take kindly to being resisted, even non-violently. If you question their right to detain you, interrogate you, search you, invade your home, and so on, you are very likely to be tasered, physically assaulted, kidnapped, put in a cage, or shot. If a cop decides to treat you like livestock, whether he does it “legally” or not, you will usually have only two options: submit, or kill the cop. You can’t resist a cop ”just a little” and get away with it. He will always call in more of his fellow gang members, until you are subdued or dead.

Basic logic dictates that you either have an obligation to LET “law enforcers” have their way with you, or you have the right to STOP them from doing so, which will almost always require killing them. (Politely asking fascists to not be fascists has a very poor track record.) Consider the recent Indiana Supreme Court ruling, which declared that if a cop tries to ILLEGALLY enter your home, it’s against the law for you to do anything to stop him. Aside from the patent absurdity of it, since it amounts to giving thugs with badges PERMISSION to “break the law,” and makes it a CRIME for you to defend yourself against a CRIMINAL (if he has a badge), consider the logical ramifications of that attitude.

There were once some words written on a piece of parchment (with those words now known as the Fourth Amendment), that said that you have the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures at the hands of ”government” agents. In Indiana today, what could that possibly mean? The message from the ruling class is quite clear, and utterly insane. It amounts to this: “We don’t have the right to invade your home without probable cause … but if we DO, you have no right to stop us, and we have the right to arrest you if you try.”

Why not apply that to the rest of the Bill of Rights, while we’re at it? ”You have the right to say what you want, but if we use violence to shut you up, you have to let us.” (I can personally attest to the fact that that is the attitude of the U.S. “Department of Justice.”) “You have the right to have guns, but if we try to forcibly and illegally disarm you, and you resist, we have the right to kill you.” (Ask Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians about that one.) “You have the right to not testify against yourself, but when we coerce you into confessing (and call it a ’plea agreement’), you can’t do a thing about it.” What good is a ”right”–what does the term “right” even mean–if you have an obligation to allow jackboots to violate your so-called “rights”? It makes the term absolutely meaningless.

To be blunt, if you have the right to do “A,” it means that if someone tries to STOP you from doing “A”–even if he has a badge and a politician’s scribble (“law”) on his side–you have the right to use whatever amount of force is necessary to resist that person. That’s what it means to have an unalienable right. If you have the unalienable right to speak your mind (a la the First Amendment), then you have the right to KILL “government” agents who try to shut you up. If you have the unalienable right to be armed, then you have the right to KILL ”government” agents who try to disarm you. If you have the right to not be subjected to unreasonable searches and seizures, then you have the right to KILL “government” agents who try to inflict those on you.

Those who are proud to be “law-abiding” don’t like to hear this, and don’t like to think about this, but what’s the alternative? If you do NOT have the right to forcibly resist injustice–even if the injustice is called ”law”–that logically implies that you have an obligation to allow ”government” agents to do absolutely anything they want to you, your home, your family, and so on. Really, there are only two choices: you are a slave, the property of the politicians, without any rights at all, or you have the right to violently resist “government” attempts to oppress you. There can be no other option.

Of course, on a practical level, openly resisting the gang called ”government” is usually very hazardous to one’s health. But there is a big difference between obeying for the sake of self-preservation, which is often necessary and rational, and feeling a moral obligation to go along with whatever the ruling class wants to do to you, which is pathetic and insane. Most of the incomprehensible atrocities that have occurred throughout history were due in large part to the fact that most people answer “never” to the question of “When should you shoot a cop?” The correct answer is: When evil is “legal,” become a criminal. When oppression is enacted as “law,” become a “law-breaker.” When those violently victimizing the innocent have badges, become a cop-killer.

The next time you hear of a police officer being killed “in the line of duty,” take a moment to consider the very real possibility that maybe in that case, the “law enforcer” was the bad guy and the “cop killer” was the good guy. As it happens, that has been the case more often than not throughout human history.

http://www.copblock.org/5475/when-should-you-shoot-a-cop/

[mport1]

When Should You Shoot A Cop[/url]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with. Unless you immediately dive head first into their cop car, you may be charged (and even then they will make up something else to get you on).

[Anti Federalist]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with. Unless you immediately dive head first into their cop car, you may be charged (and even then they will make up something else to get you on).

You don't have the moral right to defend yourself against unlawful deadly force?

[brushfire]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with.

Its a complementary charge to disorderly conduct :D
Disorderly conduct is the true catchall. It gives police officers full discretion.

[Anti Federalist]

Another video has just been released of the horrifying beating death by Fullerton CA police of Kelly Thomas.

I don't see a Youtube yet, but you can watch it over here: http://www.pixiq.com/article/shocking-video-of-kelly-thomas-released-watch-with-caution

http://i.imgur.com/DuV3r.jpg

Just a few bad apples.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwq1zk4i6X1qagyvoo1_500.jpg

[mport1]

You don't have the moral right to defend yourself against unlawful deadly force?

Yes, you do have the moral right. But doing so against a gang of people calling themselves "the police" is impractical in terms of the end goal of achieving liberty. Additionally, unlike the common criminal, there is the fact that they for the most part do not understand that their jobs are immoral and entail the initiation of violence.

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, you do have the moral right. But doing so against a gang of people calling themselves "the police" is impractical in terms of the end goal of achieving liberty. Additionally, unlike the common criminal, there is the fact that they for the most part do not understand that their jobs are immoral and entail the initiation of violence.

So we should canonize the martyrs then?

[kylejack]

Yes, you do have the moral right. But doing so against a gang of people calling themselves "the police" is impractical in terms of the end goal of achieving liberty.
When you're about to die, you don't think too much about how your actions will affect the end goal of achieving liberty.

Additionally, unlike the common criminal, there is the fact that they for the most part do not understand that their jobs are immoral and entail the initiation of violence.
When your life is on the line, what they do or don't understand is irrelevant. You're fighting for your life.

[kylejack]

There's a Tube now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8r33VHT46c

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with. Unless you immediately dive head first into their cop car, you may be charged (and even then they will make up something else to get you on).

I believe that other charge would be "Attempting to elude the police." Suspect ran, but had eyes closed and dove right into the back seat of the squad car.

[jkr]

l00k ma, hyenas!

[noneedtoaggress]

Now they're trying to blame it on the medics:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/kelly-thomas-medics-not-cops-to-blame-for-death-defense-says-.html


The lawyer for one of the Fullerton policemen charged in the beating of a mentally ill homeless man suggested Tuesday that it was medical professionals –- not police officers -– who are to blame for the death of Kelly Thomas.

In the second day of a preliminary hearing to determine whether two police officers should be ordered to stand trial for killing Thomas outside a bus depot in July, defense attorney John Barnett questioned a trauma surgeon about the treatment the beating victim received after he was rushed to St. Jude Medical Center in Fullerton.

Dr. Michael Lekawa acknowledged under questioning from Barnett that paramedics had informed him that doctors at St. Jude hospital had struggled to insert a breathing tube in Thomas following the July 5 incident. Lekawa said that if a breathing tube is not inserted quickly it can lead to a low oxygen level in the blood, and eventually death.

PHOTOS: Kelly Thomas death

But Lekawa, the chief trauma surgeon at UCI -- where Thomas was later transfered -- said records did not show such a problem.

"They did everything right," he testified.

A coroner's report found that Kelly had suffered mechanical compression –- pressure on the body leading to a lack of oxygen and eventual brain death.

Officer Manuel Ramos and Cpl. Jay Cicinelli are charged in Kelly’s death -– Ramos with second-degree murder and Cicinelli with involuntary manslaughter. Both have pleaded not guilty.

The surgeon said he was not initially aware of the officers' actions in the field but once he saw what had occurred he understood how Thomas could have sustained enough compression by the weight of the officers that it caused a lack of oxygen to the brain.

The testimony comes a day after a dramatic video of Thomas’ encounter with police was shown in court.

The grainy black-and-white video of Thomas’ violent tangle with police is the centerpiece of the prosecution’s case that the officers escalated a standard police encounter with a homeless man into a fatal beating.
At one point, Thomas –- a 37-year-old mentally ill homeless man who was a familiar face in the city’s downtown -– screams out: “Dad, they are killing me.”

The video and the sound of fists and a baton connecting with Thomas was graphic enough that several spectators in the courtroom left and the judge paused the video at one point as some in the audience began to groan.

He cautioned that those who couldn’t stomach the video should leave.

The case has rocked the north Orange County city, where scores of people have protested, staged memorials and even held a recent public birthday for Kelly Thomas.

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Doc-says-chest-compression-led-to-homeless-death-3542916.php


SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) — A medical center trauma surgeon says continuous compression of a California homeless man's chest during a confrontation with police officers caused breathing problems that led to his death.
Dr. Michael Lekawa testified Tuesday in response to intense questioning by attorneys for two Fullerton officers charged with killing Kelly Thomas last July.
One attorney asked whether performing CPR for a long time might cause the problems that led to Thomas' death.
Prosecutors contend that Officer Manuel Ramos and Cpl. Jay Cicinelli punched and pinned down Thomas, and that the 37-year-old died from mechanical compression of the thorax, which made it impossible for him to breathe normally.
The testimony came in a preliminary hearing to determine whether the officers must stand trial.

[heavenlyboy34]

Sorry I overlooked this thread. :( More discussion of this story going on over here, fwiw: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?375591-I-wonder-how-cop-apologists-will-defend-this-one....

[kcchiefs6465]

Wow. Every officer on scene should be charged with capital murder and subsequently put down. The fuck is wrong with people.

[pcgame]

..

[FindLiberty]

Horrible. The situation slowly goes South from a routine beginning to a tragic end... It’s three videos long: From long, calm standing conversation to his last pleas and muffled gasps.

WTF

They would had never released this video (and it could only be worse) if this was also white on black racial riot fodder (ala Rodney King beating). This incident was still much more savage considering the minor verbal “cause” beginning and the fatal sadistic beating conclusion, even without adding any racial overtones. This should still be enough to get everyone to line up outside the local police and local government offices demanding resignations and lasting changes to prevent this from ever happening again!

The number of times Kelly was ordered to move his legs and hands back and forth would have been funny in the first two videos if this had not ended so badly. They discussed prior encounter(s) with the same cop that threatened a fist beating after he put on the rubber gloves. Kelly did give his name once, early in to the encounter, AFTER they discussed speaking in English, etc. The only thing the poor guy did wrong was give some contempt of cop attitude (just a little) and VERBALLY act a bit crazy by not giving his full name or clearly re-stating his name (an claiming to not speak the cops english language) while still standing there calmly talking to both cops. It's hard to call this an aggravated homicide when there was no apparent grounds for an arrest or that cold-blooded murder by beating and tasering the poor guy to death. He gave no threat to police at any time!

Was it the 2nd cop (who appeared to be even calmer at the start of the interview) that ran out of Taser Lightning Juice and then started pounding the guys head, face-down, into the ground while his partner had his knees in his back – or was it the other way around? It was more traditional and less damming for the other cops (arriving later) who joined in after verbal invitation. Did any of them try to de-escalate the use of force? Was it the voice of a cop (before paramedics arrived) that questioned if he was still breathing? Who observed and commented on his cyanosis (probably noticed Kelly’s lips turning blue)? Were the cops still kneeling on his back at that time?

I don't see how the eventual death can be blamed on the medics or hospital.

From what I've seen here, and especially if there’s additional cover-ups and lies by the cops statements and records from that night, I'd say this was murder and the maximum prison time is probably applicable for the homicidal bullies here - maybe parole after 25 years in hard-core cages, never hold a position with gov or authority again.

Sickening. What’s the back story on the involved cops to have them behave that way instead of act like peace officers should?

This country is going down the crazy crapper tube ...and even Ron Paul can’t bring back the dead.

[ZENemy]

After I read the transcript I didn't even bother watching the video, just READING what happened twisted my stomach.

[aGameOfThrones]

Unbelievable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn8CE5ISUSw&feature=plcp

Where's Waldo the 95% good?

[Anti Federalist]

Where's Waldo the 95% good?

You mean the 95 cops who stepped in to stop this murder?

I dunno...

Donut shop?

[TheTexan]

You don't have the moral right to defend yourself against unlawful deadly force?

We have a ton of rights, that if exercised, would send us six feet under. Violence does not solve this dilemma. Not on an individual level anyway. On a collective level, violent revolutions may work... but one should always try peaceful alternatives such as secession before resorting to violence.

Besides, secession is inherently a better solution, because it breaks the State into smaller pieces. Local government = better government.

Now of course, if someone is going to kill you, unlawful or not... best protect yourself...

[aGameOfThrones]

You mean the 95 cops who stepped in to stop this murder?

I dunno...

Donut shop?

An apologist could surely find one in that video. Donut shop? Nah, probably at a local kennel doing some target practice.

[Flugel89]

Every pig involved in this murder should be hung publicly for anyone else considering commiting such abuses to see.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Every pig involved in this murder should be hung publicly for anyone else considering commiting such abuses to see.

Woah...

I'm not saying this guy is a government plant...but he might be a government plant.

[pcgame]

..

[Flugel89]

Woah...

I'm not saying this guy is a government plant...but he might be a government plant.

I've had a long day. I'm a little grumpy.

I'm not advocating vigilante justice, nor do I urge others to. Maybe I came off that way? I just wish the "justice" system would stop excusing these daily abuses.

I guess being bombarded with AF's posts everyday is getting to me.

[Henry Rogue]

I can't watch the hole thing it's sick.

[Flugel89]

I can't watch the hole thing it's sick.

I had to stop just after they went off screen. The screams were way to much for me.

[noneedtoaggress]

I had to stop just after they went off screen. The screams were way to much for me.

I hear ya. Now you have to imagine what sort of person it would take to participate in that murderous and grotesque abuse of power, with blood dripping from their fists and knees and contempt in their souls, when you can't even watch a video of it.

These are the sort of people hired to "protect" social order. Because, funded by threats of dishing out this sort of punishment to other innocent people, they're only held as accountable as people are willing to revolt.

[presence]

Is it time yet?

[Anti Federalist]

Is it time yet?

Long past time.

Nobody has the stomach for it, to a certain extent, myself included.

No man will dance until the first man boogies.

So here we sit, as Rome burns.

[Anti Federalist]

Look to the bold.

That includes agitation right here on this site.

This is the reason why I post the stories I do, not because of some blind, "collectivst" hatred of cops, not because I'm cowering in fear in some hidey hole somewhere.

Because I truly want to hold these thugs accountable and because I truly care about my fellow patriots and I'd like to see them stay alive and out of prison.


“I just start smashing his face to hell.”

http://www.theagitator.com/2012/05/09/i-just-start-smashing-his-face-to-hell/

Wednesday, May 9th, 2012

This police beating of Kelly Thomas is one of the most heartbreaking videos I’ve ever seen. Not just for Thomas, although quite obviously for Thomas. But also for the sheer depravity—the staring-you-in-the-face confirmation that your fellow human beings are capable of this sort of thing.

Of course, the point is also that these aren’t just any human beings. You can find violent videos at sites like World Star Hip Hop that are every bit as soul-crushing. But these are the people we entrust with the exclusive power to use coercive force—which we do in the interest of protecting the public. Days after the beating, one of these animals called into a radio show to boast about it. The night of the beating, one of them demanded treatment for a scrape on his elbow as Thomas lay dying a few feet away, looking like this.

Public officials closed ranks. A “special assistant to the DA” was brought on to defend the officers. The police department shut down the flow of information, then released misinformation (though another public official later found no fault with that). The city then tried to pay Thomas’ father $900,000 to go away.

Were it not for a citizen with a cell phone camera, the agitation of a local blog, and the determination of Thomas’ father, himself a former cop, we may never have known about Kelly Thomas. And these animals could well still be on the police force in Fullerton.

It’s difficult as hell, but you should still sit down to watch this video. Once you’re done, you can restore some optimism with this video from Reason.tv, which explains how technology and social media eventually shamed Fullerton officials into taking action.

[Todd]

The next time you hear of a police officer being killed “in the line of duty,” take a moment to consider the very real possibility that maybe in that case, the “law enforcer” was the bad guy and the “cop killer” was the good guy. As it happens, that has been the case more often than not throughout human history.

As much as I'm sickened by this case and any violence perpetuated against innocents, this is blatant bullshit.

[Anti Federalist]

As much as I'm sickened by this case and any violence perpetuated against innocents, this is blatant bullshit.

Is it?

How many has government killed in the last century?

50 million?

75 million?

100 million?

Government just doesn't snap it's fingers and have people vaporized.

Those people that fill the mass graves of history were put there because men with weapons, uniforms and bad haircuts put them there.

[Todd]

Is it?

How many has government killed in the last century?

50 million?

75 million?

100 million?

Government just doesn't snap it's fingers and have people vaporized.

Those people that fill the mass graves of history were put there because men with weapons, uniforms and bad haircuts put them there.

Yes. "Government" has. We agree on that.

My disagreement is with the faulty generalization that "most" cops in the line of duty probably deserved it by the "cop killer".

The Kelly Thomas video is sickening. That is not what I mean. Those cops deserve punishment

[Root]

http://www.ocregister.com/news/thomas-353409-officers-ramos.html

[Philmanoman]

At 9:54 or so...in the video...what is being said by the cops.
"I ran out of...we ran out of options..........................(something about a finger and a taser???)........so I smashed his face in".

Thats all I can get out of it...anyone else?

[mrsat_98]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/kelly-thomas-case-two-fullerton-cops-ordered-to-stand-trial.html

Cops ordered to stand trial. Pull up a chair we might get to watch a BBQ.

[Root]

At 9:54 or so...in the video...what is being said by the cops.
"I ran out of...we ran out of options..........................(something about a finger and a taser???)........so I smashed his face in".

Thats all I can get out of it...anyone else?
Transcript: http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Transcripts-Kelly-Thomas-FPD.pdf

[Magicman]

This guy was tortured for 30 minutes and pleaded for his life while he was beaten by batons and tasered, and the police were caught on tape, they were bailed out and hardly sentenced, they had the guts to blame the medic for it, had manslaughter charges and even were bailed out by other crooked officers, these officers were the scum of the scum, let noone forget this man, nobody serves to be treated this way!

If you have a Heart please re-post this photo on your wall to honor a victim of police brutality that was completely unnecessary, he had to suffer from batons and tasers for 30 minutes, died in a coma and choked on his own blood. This is just sick. These police officers got away with this...Disgusting.

Repost this on your Facebook Walls to Honor this Innocent Man...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku42PPzYEqs

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539946_375547129147055_133646306670473_970062_3574 84223_n.jpg


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/525850_10150838983347770_748882769_9392811_1638746 689_n.jpg

[Dissent]

Actually they both were indicted today and will be going to trial. http://gma.yahoo.com/cops-tried-alleged-fatal-beating-homeless-man-caught-225528732--abc-news-topstories.html

[tod evans]

Without digital recordings and internet publicity the cops here would be going on about their day.

Cops must be recorded every working hour!

[Magicman]

The man didn't know what to do but cry helplessly for his father...I don't believe in the Death Penalty but they should serve life in prison.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s320x320/561257_405040042860800_100000644225939_1221295_210 0216084_n.jpg

[jkr]

He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!

[phill4paul]

Out of all the cops there I'm sure at least one of them was a 'good' cop. Since actions like this are only caused by 'bad apples' and 'bad apples' are few and far in between odds should be that the majority of the officers there were 'good' cops. Right?

[Travlyr]

Out of all the cops there I'm sure at least one of them was a 'good' cop. Since actions like this are only caused by 'bad apples' and 'bad apples' are few and far in between odds should be that the majority of the officers there were 'good' cops. Right?
Yep. Surely there was a 'good' cop there. He/she didn't stop the beating out of fear of losing their job, but surely one of them felt bad about it. Right?

[fisharmor]

Without digital recordings and internet publicity the cops here would be going on about their day.

Cops must be recorded every working hour!

Provided they're standing in front of the deep fat fryer where they ought to be working, I agree with this sentiment.

[fisharmor]

He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!

This goes beyond selling dope disguised as a nun.

[squarepusher]

Out of all the cops there I'm sure at least one of them was a 'good' cop. Since actions like this are only caused by 'bad apples' and 'bad apples' are few and far in between odds should be that the majority of the officers there were 'good' cops. Right?

crooked cops give the other 2% a bad name

[jmdrake]

Actually they both were indicted today and will be going to trial. http://gma.yahoo.com/cops-tried-alleged-fatal-beating-homeless-man-caught-225528732--abc-news-topstories.html

Not good enough. From your link:

Six officers arrived at the scene for back-up, but the district attorney determined that there was only enough evidence to charge Ramos and Cicinelli in Thomas' death.

Those other officers should have been charged at least with accessory to murder.

[tod evans]

Not good enough. From your link:

Six officers arrived at the scene for back-up, but the district attorney determined that there was only enough evidence to charge Ramos and Cicinelli in Thomas' death.

Those other officers should have been charged at least with accessory to murder.

Absolutely!

You or I would have been.

[phill4paul]

Not good enough. From your link:

Six officers arrived at the scene for back-up, but the district attorney determined that there was only enough evidence to charge Ramos and Cicinelli in Thomas' death.

Those other officers should have been charged at least with accessory to murder.

Those that arrived for back-up were the 'good' cops. Obviously.

[jmdrake]

Yep. Surely there was a 'good' cop there. He/she didn't stop the beating out of fear of losing their job, but surely one of them felt bad about it. Right?

That's about right:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?374256-This-is-what-happens-to-good-cops-...&highlight=woman+officer+fired

http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w256.html

[Danke]

crooked cops give the other 2% a bad name

It is down to just 2% now?

[phill4paul]

C'mon guys. Quit thinking collectivism. We weren't there. We don't know EXACTLY what happened. For all we know the MEDICS beat him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Yeah, that's the ticket. It was PROBABLY the medics that did this to him and then BLAMING the cops for it. Scumbag medics. Framing our heroes this way. We are lucky the officers were able to make it home to their families.

[aGameOfThrones]

C'mon guys. Quit thinking collectivism. We weren't there. We don't know EXACTLY what happened. For all we know the MEDICS beat him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Yeah, that's the ticket. It was PROBABLY the medics that did this to him and then BLAMING the cops for it. Scumbag medics. Framing our heroes this way. We are lucky the officers were able to make it home to their families.

Exactly. Kelly could have beaten himself to death. People are so quick to blame cops when there is a perfectly insane explanation that will focus the blame on someone else.

[jmdrake]

Exactly. Kelly could have beaten himself to death. People are so quick to blame cops when there is a perfectly insane explanation that will focus the blame on someone else.

He was resisting by attempting to breathe.

[phill4paul]

He was resisting by attempting to breathe.

Circular force continuum. If he had immediately complied and been choked to death then they wouldn't have needed to beat him. I know some bleeding heart will probably post that he may have been mentally ill but EVERYBODY knows that you should submit to lawful actions by a police officer. People that are mentally ill just like to use their illness as an excuse. Now, all because of him, two officers with YEARS of service and more than likely commendations and such might lose their jobs over this.

[John F Kennedy III]

Police Torture Man To Death For Fun

Alex Jones
May 10, 2012

Editor’s note: The first video below is Alex Jones’ take on the horrific beating followed by the video released by the city of Fullerton, California.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NG5_gQvJYbg

RT posted the video released to the public of the murder:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8JXPpfgbe_I

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2012_may/2300-504083_162-10008884-2.jpg

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2012_may/kelly-thomas-police-beating.jpg


original article here:
http://www.infowars.com/police-torture-man-to-death-for-fun/

[phill4paul]

Thanks for additional footage....

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?375910-Scumbag-Police-Officers-Torture-and-Murder-Innocent-Homeless-Man-and-Get-Away-With-It!!!

[aGameOfThrones]

Circular force continuum. If he had immediately complied and been choked to death then they wouldn't have needed to beat him. I know some bleeding heart will probably post that he may have been mentally ill but EVERYBODY knows that you should submit to lawful actions by a police officer. People that are mentally ill just like to use their illness as an excuse. Now, all because of him, two officers with YEARS of service and more than likely commendations and such might lose their jobs over this.

That's the real tragedy.

[aGameOfThrones]

I'm really getting tired of all these cop hating threads, can't you see he did it to himself?


Note: MOD should merge with this one http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?375910-Scumbag-Police-Officers-Torture-and-Murder-Innocent-Homeless-Man-and-Get-Away-With-It!!!&p=4413421#post4413421

[farreri]

See what happens when gays are allowed to marry? </Fundie>

[aGameOfThrones]

See what happens when gays are allowed to marry? </Fundie>

Finally we are getting to the root of it.

[John F Kennedy III]

Sorry I didn't realize it had been posted already. Please merge.

[Travlyr]

Has anyone seen this story on CNN, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, or any major media network?

[Demigod]

I really don't understand why the US policeman are such sadist.

[farreri]

I really don't understand why the US policeman are such sadist.
It's an intoxication to power. Being in positions of authority has a strange way of doing that.

[phill4paul]

I really don't understand why the US policeman are such sadist.

The american public demands it. Otherwise such shows as COPS, Police Women of Broward County and Inside of American Jail would be boring and T.V. would revert to a wasteland dominated by lame sitcoms and Jerry Springer.

[John F Kennedy III]

Has anyone seen this story on CNN, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, or any major media network?
.
Good question. I highly doubt you will. At least not the full details and I'm sure they'll find a way to spin it.

[Napolitanic Wars]

Fullerton Police Department
237 West Commonwealth Avenue
Fullerton California, CA 92832

(714) 738-6800

ci.fullerton.ca.us

[fisharmor]

The american public demands it. Otherwise such shows as COPS, Police Women of Broward County and Inside of American Jail would be boring and T.V. would revert to a wasteland dominated by lame sitcoms and Jerry Springer.

Ever watch The Twilight Zone?
That was 50 years ago, and to this day nothing can top it.

[tod evans]

Ever watch The Twilight Zone?
That was 50 years ago, and to this day nothing can top it.

Saturday night with popcorn....new episodes.

[phill4paul]

Ever watch The Twilight Zone?
That was 50 years ago, and to this day nothing can top it.

Only in re-runs. :D Loved it.

[Captain Shays]

Not good enough. From your link:

Six officers arrived at the scene for back-up, but the district attorney determined that there was only enough evidence to charge Ramos and Cicinelli in Thomas' death.

Those other officers should have been charged at least with accessory to murder.

Drake does it again!! Bravo

I totally agree. Unless they are good cops like to one who shot my autistic step kid five times and was found guilty of no wrong doing and was back on the job in six months

[Captain Shays]

Has anyone seen this story on CNN, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, or any major media network?
I would like to see this on ALL of the above.

The media is so complicit in this. Just because it made it to TV this incident, along with Hope Stephie and the little girl selling lemonade and the other little girl crying as the TSA butch put her hands all the way into the little girl's pants. ALL of it should be showed together on national TV at prime time and then repeated. I would be happy if they gave it just half the attention of this F'n gay marriage issue

[Schifference]

Not good enough. From your link:

Six officers arrived at the scene for back-up, but the district attorney determined that there was only enough evidence to charge Ramos and Cicinelli in Thomas' death.

Those other officers should have been charged at least with accessory to murder.

I seem to remember not that long ago a bunch of kids were arrested for watching a couple of kids fight. Some of these kids got arrested for just being at the place where the fight took place and not doing anything. Seems to me that if ordinary citizens can be arrested for witnessing a beating then the police should even be more accountable.

[phill4paul]

I seem to remember not that long ago a bunch of kids were arrested for watching a couple of kids fight. Some of these kids got arrested for just being at the place where the fight took place and not doing anything. Seems to me that if ordinary citizens can be arrested for witnessing a beating then the police should even be more accountable.

Cop hater. Your collectivism has undermined the Ron Paul movement with our law enforcement brethren. Hope you're happy with yourself. We could be winning primaries if not for people like you!

[kcchiefs6465]

Cop hater. Your collectivism has undermined the Ron Paul movement with our law enforcement brethren. Hope you're happy with yourself. We could be winning primaries if not for people like you!
I agree. Such savages they are for assuming cops are bad. Cops dedicate their lives to protecting us. It's a damn shame this one little incident casts a cloud on the ENTIRE police force. We can only hope our TPD helps to get these heros the kind of legal defense that only they are worthy of.

[dillo]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with. Unless you immediately dive head first into their cop car, you may be charged (and even then they will make up something else to get you on).

Unfortunately violence is the only way to liberty

[dillo]

Circular force continuum. If he had immediately complied and been choked to death then they wouldn't have needed to beat him. I know some bleeding heart will probably post that he may have been mentally ill but EVERYBODY knows that you should submit to lawful actions by a police officer. People that are mentally ill just like to use their illness as an excuse. Now, all because of him, two officers with YEARS of service and more than likely commendations and such might lose their jobs over this.

If you cant submit someone without a taser you shouldnt be a cop. If you injure someone as a result of an arrest that should have never happened, you should lose your job.

[heavenlyboy34]

C'mon guys. Quit thinking collectivism. We weren't there. We don't know EXACTLY what happened. For all we know the MEDICS beat him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Yeah, that's the ticket. It was PROBABLY the medics that did this to him and then BLAMING the cops for it. Scumbag medics. Framing our heroes this way. We are lucky the officers were able to make it home to their families.
Already mentioned this on another thread, but it merits repeating. Cops make themselves a collective. ("The Brotherhood") People like the posters you're referring to are simply talking about things as they are.

[Anti Federalist]

Already mentioned this on another thread, but it merits repeating. Cops make themselves a collective. ("The Brotherhood") People like the posters you're referring to are simply talking about things as they are.

Yes, exactly right.

I hope those that think I am on some kind of personal vendetta because I "hate cops" and am judging them through a "collectivist" lens, understands that.

They have joined the collective, not I, and they are ones bonding together and acting collectively while enforcing the, increasingly Draconian, rules of the Regime.

As such their actions, not as individual people, but as the collective, must be judged.

[slamhead]

Ramos..."see my fist?" He was just itching to beat someone that night.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes, exactly right.

I hope those that think I am on some kind of personal vendetta because I "hate cops" and am judging them through a "collectivist" lens, understands that.

They have joined the collective, not I, and they are ones bonding together and acting collectively while enforcing the, increasingly Draconian, rules of the Regime.

As such their actions, not as individual people, but as the collective, must be judged.
I always thought "The Brotherhood" was awfully, disturbingly similar to something a rather high-tech street gang would call themselves. ;) :eek:

[azxd]

I sure hope Ron Paul wins the election, so all of this can be stopped.

He's anti-cop ... Right ?

[PaulConventionWV]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

And for those who don't understand what "resisting arrest" means, it is a catch all that they can (and do) charge anybody with. Unless you immediately dive head first into their cop car, you may be charged (and even then they will make up something else to get you on).

Violence is justified when it is initiated on you. Do you not believe in self-defense, or are you one of those hippies that thinks everyone should just lay back and take it, no matter what. I know most anarchists/voluntarists (I'm sick of the non-word "voluntaryist") advocate self-defense, so which is it?

[PaulConventionWV]

Yes, you do have the moral right. But doing so against a gang of people calling themselves "the police" is impractical in terms of the end goal of achieving liberty. Additionally, unlike the common criminal, there is the fact that they for the most part do not understand that their jobs are immoral and entail the initiation of violence.

I think they understand. There is no way someone can beat another person to a pulp as part of THEIR JOB, and not realize that violence is part of their job.

[Travlyr]

I sure hope Ron Paul wins the election, so all of this can be stopped.

He's anti-cop ... Right ?
Yes. Ron Paul is a strict Constitutionalist.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Cops really shouldn't be killing people. It is against natural law.

[tod evans]

Yes. Ron Paul is a strict Constitutionalist.


Cops really shouldn't be killing people. It is against natural law.


Don't forget that pesky "Standing Army" thing ......

[Pericles]

What is the difference between Fullerton CA, and the Warsaw ghetto? 70 years

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/p462.gif

[phill4paul]

I sure hope Ron Paul wins the election, so all of this can be stopped.

He's anti-cop ... Right ?

http://davidkretzmann.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/the-police-state-in-this-country-1024x633.jpg

[PaulConventionWV]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/kelly-thomas-case-two-fullerton-cops-ordered-to-stand-trial.html

Cops ordered to stand trial. Pull up a chair we might get to watch a BBQ.

Cicinelli's stepfather:


“It’s going to have to go to a jury, and the jury is going to have to say no way,” he said.

He's going to make them an offer they can't refuse...

[PaulConventionWV]

I sure hope Ron Paul wins the election, so all of this can be stopped.

He's anti-cop ... Right ?

What are you on about now?

[Captain Shays]

NEVER FORGET Hope Stephie. Please don't forget her.

She is my wife. She is my daughter. She is my mother. She is my sister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGFAc8Q79iY

[Captain Shays]

When will enough be enough? I am ready to fight back but not alone

[Anti Federalist]

Thread winner.

Jeez, like shooting tuna fish in a barrel, isn't it?


http://davidkretzmann.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/the-police-state-in-this-country-1024x633.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

When will enough be enough? I am ready to fight back but not alone

I don't know.

I know a lot of us are fed up, as this continues to spiral out of control.

There is some push back, here and there, but nothing of any real significance.

Hold!

[Anti Federalist]

What are you on about now?

He might give you a coherent explanation, or he may not.

As I see it, azxd has become my self appointed critic, and has assumed the role of following me around in every police abuse thread that I post, because he seems to think I am unfairly criticizing and collectivizing law enforcement personnel who are, in his view, mostly just decent people trying to do their jobs.

He also feels that these posts are not "political" and thus, should not be cluttering up a political sub forum.

[PaulConventionWV]

He might give you a coherent explanation, or he may not.

As I see it, azxd has become my self appointed critic, and has assumed the role of following me around in every police abuse thread that I post, because he seems to think I am unfairly criticizing and collectivizing law enforcement personnel who are, in his view, mostly just decent people trying to do their jobs.

He also feels that these posts are not "political" and thus, should not be cluttering up a political sub forum.

Posh. If there's one thing I've learned about cop-lovers, it's that they never admit they're wrong.

[Travlyr]

Cop Day. We were taught to like cops in our government school. They would come once each year to be our friend. I thought of them as Andy & Barney until I sat in county jail for a week for something I didn't do.

[Captain Shays]

I don't know.

I know a lot of us are fed up, as this continues to spiral out of control.

There is some push back, here and there, but nothing of any real significance.

Hold!
Yeah I'm with ya HOLD ....for now but we need to start making preparations now as well. We need some kind of plan. They have some nasty weapons, they have experience, they have tactics, they have an endless supply of money and they have the media on their side. I suspect that if the stuff hits a fan communications will be cut off so we won't be able to get enough of us together at one location where needed to put up a resistence. We need something in place in order to communicate when they cut of the net and cell phones etc.
It's gonna happen. No doubt about it. I used to think the crap was somewhere out on the horizen but it's not. It's right up the street now.

[Captain Shays]

Hopefully some good cops and military personnel will be on our side

[azxd]

What are you on about now?Just the impression some of his supporters create.

[azxd]

When will enough be enough? I am ready to fight back but not aloneWhy ?
If enough is enough, make a stand ... That's what Ron Paul's supporters are doing.

I'm not saying to commit an act of violence, but a new member (February 2012) was writing today about someone like you, who is ready to make a stand, and the reference was that someone like you, who is "ready to fight back" might shoot her husband.

Ya see AF ... This is what you are creating.

People who are ready to fight LE ... I wonder what that really means ?
But they're waiting for another to say the word.

Promoting violence against an entire group of people ... Just because of their profession.
Such a great RP representative you are http://wemissjerry.org/smiles/barf.gif

[enjerth]

Why ?
If enough is enough, make a stand ... That's what Ron Paul's supporters are doing.

I'm not saying to commit an act of violence, but a new member (February 2012) was writing today about someone like you, who is ready to make a stand, and the reference was that someone like you, who is "ready to fight back" might shoot her husband.

Ya see AF ... This is what you are creating.

People who are ready to fight LE ... I wonder what that really means ?
But they're waiting for another to say the word.

Promoting violence against an entire group of people ... Just because of their profession.
Such a great RP representative you are http://wemissjerry.org/smiles/barf.gif

Promoting violence.... out of a hill of beans?

Aren't the violent the ones who are promoting violence?

[Captain Shays]

Why ?
If enough is enough, make a stand ... That's what Ron Paul's supporters are doing.

I'm not saying to commit an act of violence, but a new member (February 2012) was writing today about someone like you, who is ready to make a stand, and the reference was that someone like you, who is "ready to fight back" might shoot her husband.

Ya see AF ... This is what you are creating.

People who are ready to fight LE ... I wonder what that really means ?
But they're waiting for another to say the word.

Promoting violence against an entire group of people ... Just because of their profession.
Such a great RP representative you are http://wemissjerry.org/smiles/barf.gif
First of all, AF didn't "create" my anger at the establishment. It's been brewing for a very long time. I am 53 years old and since I was 15 I have been watching events in a somewhat unique way.
Second, I am not a violent person nor do I advocate violence unless it's in self defense or in defense of your loved ones/country. IN those cases violence is completely justified.
What I am talking about is defending my own life and the lives of my family and my country.

You may or may not agree with me, but tyranny isn't some idea. It's not some far off concept. It's not only in other countries or what we read in history books. It's here and it's now. When cops can regularily murder, beat, strip innocent women and kill your family pets for no good reason that by all of my definitions is tyranny.

Call me a conspircy nut but in light of all that I have already seen which confirms what I have been expecting since I was 15 years old, I fully believe my government is capable of rounding many of us up and detaining us in concentration camps otherwise known as FEMA camps.

I don't want to go. I don't want them to get away with strip searching my wife or daughters without me putting up some sort of resistence. I'm totalyl sick of this crap and it's got to stop and it's us who must stop it.

First through the ballot box but if that doesn't work I KNOW where it's heading.

The only "group" of people I advocate violence against are the jacko booted thugs wearing riot gear and come to my house and kill my dog or point a gun at one of my family member's head or attempt to take us to a internment camp.

[heavenlyboy34]

Just thought of another thing I want to mention while we're on this topic. As much as I dislike standing armies, at least with they have a code of conduct that (mostly) keeps them in line-especially when dealing with citizens-the UCMJ. Cops, on the other hand, are basically a lawless gang of thugs in nice costumes.

[pcgame]

..

[kcchiefs6465]

First of all, AF didn't "create" my anger at the establishment. It's been brewing for a very long time. I am 53 years old and since I was 15 I have been watching events in a somewhat unique way.
Second, I am not a violent person nor do I advocate violence unless it's in self defense or in defense of your loved ones/country. IN those cases violence is completely justified.
What I am talking about is defending my own life and the lives of my family and my country.

You may or may not agree with me, but tyranny isn't some idea. It's not some far off concept. It's not only in other countries or what we read in history books. It's here and it's now. When cops can regularily murder, beat, strip innocent women and kill your family pets for no good reason that by all of my definitions is tyranny.

Call me a conspircy nut but in light of all that I have already seen which confirms what I have been expecting since I was 15 years old, I fully believe my government is capable of rounding many of us up and detaining us in concentration camps otherwise known as FEMA camps.

I don't want to go. I don't want them to get away with strip searching my wife or daughters without me putting up some sort of resistence. I'm totalyl sick of this crap and it's got to stop and it's us who must stop it.

First through the ballot box but if that doesn't work I KNOW where it's heading.

The only "group" of people I advocate violence against are the jacko booted thugs wearing riot gear and come to my house and kill my dog or point a gun at one of my family member's head or attempt to take us to a internment camp.
Captain.. After reading about your tragedy involving L.E. it is understandable that you might feel a certain way. Please refrain from this kind of language. Reading a few of your other posts I feel/know you a good-hearted individual only responding to the immense pressure put on you. I understand why you might, in the heat of the moment, say something; not many can account for what you have been put through. That being said, violence is never the answer. EDUCATION IS. SOPA didn't stand a snowball chance in hell once it went viral. These atrocities need to be brought to the light.

[Anti Federalist]

Captain.. After reading about your tragedy involving L.E. it is understandable that you might feel a certain way. Please refrain from this kind of language. Reading a few of your other posts I feel/know you a good-hearted individual only responding to the immense pressure put on you. I understand why you might, in the heat of the moment, say something; not many can account for what you have been put through. That being said, violence is never the answer. EDUCATION IS. SOPA didn't stand a snowball chance in hell once it went viral. These atrocities need to be brought to the light.

Especially when being trolled to make a response.

Hold!!!

[Anti Federalist]

Ya see AF ... This is what you are creating.

I'd suggest that the only person that "created" anything in this particular case was the asshole cop who gunned down this man's stepson, in a fucking school office, under questionable circumstances, and never so much as lost a day's pay over it.

[kcchiefs6465]

Especially when being trolled to make a response.

Hold!!!
Fucking A. I don't even know if I should have responded, quite honestly. But, to be perfectly clear, once again, violence is never the answer. EDUCATION IS.

[TheTexan]

That being said, violence is never the answer. EDUCATION IS. SOPA didn't stand a snowball chance in hell once it went viral. These atrocities need to be brought to the light.

Atrocities like the patriot act? We've been educating for years on the patriot act. Obama's signing of it got nary a peep.

All of our successes, SOPA included, have been the result of an irate minority. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I feel the need to correct you here. It wasn't education that got SOPA shot down. It was a call to arms of everyone who was already on our side to do something about it.

We raised all kinds of hell, and we had our victory: SOPA was shot down. It's back, however, and worse with CISPA. Unless we raise all kinds of hell all over again, it's going to pass. Even if we win again, they will just be back, again, and again, until SOPA passes. We can't keep doing this. We're getting exhausted fighting these forces.

We're swimming upstream without a paddle here folks. We can either expend all our energy fighting the current until we drown in the river, or we can just get out of the river and walk.

[kcchiefs6465]

Atrocities like the patriot act? We've been educating for years on the patriot act. Obama's signing of it got nary a peep.

All of our successes, SOPA included, have been the result of an irate minority. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I feel the need to correct you here. It wasn't education that got SOPA shot down. It was a call to arms of everyone who was already on our side to do something about it.

We raised all kinds of hell, and we had our victory: SOPA was shot down. It's back, however, and worse with CISPA. Unless we raise all kinds of hell all over again, it's going to pass. Even if we win again, they will just be back, again, and again, until SOPA passes. We can't keep doing this. We're getting exhausted fighting these forces.

We're swimming upstream without a paddle here folks. We can either expend all our energy fighting the current until we drown in the river, or we can just get out of the river and walk.
Well, thank you for correcting. Pretty much all I can say. What's this "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act" you speak of? And furthermore, what does this have to do with me explaining that, I, IN NO WAY, CONDONE NOR ADVOCATE VIOLENCE TOWARDS ANYONE?

ETA: I apologize if I seem somewhat harsh. I have been in somewhat of a mood, "lately." I really don't mean any disrespect towards you.

[TheTexan]

Well, thank you for correcting. Pretty much all I can say. What's this "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act" you speak of? And furthermore, what does this have to do with me explaining that, I, IN NO WAY, CONDONE NOR ADVOCATE VIOLENCE TOWARDS ANYONE?

You made two assertions.
1) Violence is not the answer
2) Education is the answer

I agree with 1). Violence is not the answer.

I disagree with 2). Education is not working, and from all available evidence, won't be expected to work.

The reason I correct you is because a lot of people assume that the only choices are either violence or education. But there's a third option: Separation.

It's a peaceful, realistic, and achievable solution, that would allow us to take our freedom back in a matter of just a few years or less. An example of this is the FSP, and if our movement expended even a quarter of the energy on the FSP that we do now on delegates, we'd have our freedom back. Today.

[Verrater]

What is the difference between Fullerton CA, and the Warsaw ghetto? 70 years

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/p462.gif
This.

http://www.worldsfamousphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/410px-einsatzgruppen_killing.jpg


Violence is not the path to liberty.

That being said, violence is never the answer.

Promoting violence against an entire group of people ... Just because of their profession.

Self defense is violence.
I refuse to be a victim of another person no matter their profession.

[Anti Federalist]

Self defense is not unjustified violence.

I think that is what you meant to say.

And I agree.

[kcchiefs6465]

Where art thou azxd?

[dillo]

Fucking A. I don't even know if I should have responded, quite honestly. But, to be perfectly clear, once again, violence is never the answer. EDUCATION IS.

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?

[RickyJ]

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?

Education seems to work best for "hard heads" when there is the force behind it. That is the way it has always been on planet Earth and that is the way it will always be until Jesus comes back. War isn't going away even if Paul wins. That sucks, but it is the truth.

[kcchiefs6465]

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?
What was that you say, why not 'troll' (though I hate to be so typical as to word it that way; perhaps entrap?) the "British" into saying something incriminating? Because that would be ineffective. As many should have realized by now. Is there any other questions that pertain to violence vs. education? Any at all? Shall I really repeat myself one more goddamn 'gain?

[Czolgosz]

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?

Precisely.

[Captain Shays]

Education seems to work best for "hard heads" when there is the force behind it. That is the way it has always been on planet Earth and that is the way it will always be until Jesus comes back. War isn't going away even if Paul wins. That sucks, but it is the truth.

But at least president Ron Paul would only engage in just wars. Wars of self defense. violence in self defense or in defense of your loved ones is fully justified not only in the eyes of God but supposedly in the halls of earthly justice.

[Captain Shays]

"Mr. President, no man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the house. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if entertaining, as I do, opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely, and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the house is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery. And in proportion to the magnitude of the subject, ought to be the freedom of debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself guilty of treason toward my country, and of an act of disloyality toward the majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

My President, it is natural for a man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation. For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it might cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the house? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy in this quarter of the world to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned--we have remonstrated--we have supplicated we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight!! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat, but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged, their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable and let it come!! I repeat it, sir, let it come!!!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace but there is no peace. The war is actually begun. The next gale that sweeps from the North will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry


All below are from Thomas Jefferson. So tell me. How should we educate them to avoid violent confrontation? What can we say to them to convince them to take their agent's hands out of the pants of our little daughters? To stop beating us to death with clubs and kicks to our heads for talking back in a way that offends their forces?
How can we be free if we must ask permission for every little choice to make regarding business, or what we eat or drink or smoke or otherwise put into our own bodies? How can we say that we're free if we're not free over what we put into our own body? How does that comport with the free will our Heavenly Father, creator of the universe gave us as our very first gift?
Who am I to answer such questions?. I defer to my teacher Mr Jefferson

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government".


"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty".

"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive".

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? "

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all.
When wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality.
God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure". That statement was in response to a letter Jefferson recieved while in France informing him about Shays Rebellion


"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual".

"It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately".

"I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man".


"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical".


"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate".

[tod evans]

Concerning violence,

I came to the realization in my 30's (20yrs ago) that until violence has been done to you peacefulness is generally advocated.

Once you have been subjected to true violence either at the hand of the state or at the hand of the common man your perspective usually changes.

If your life has been so blessed that violence is only something that you read about or watch on TV then consider yourself lucky.

Learning to separate an honest need for violence from the desire to control or seek vengeance is something good men have battled with for ever.

The problem I see raised every day is that "good men" are few and far between in the ranks of government today.


[ For azxd, This post is not intended to promote violence against anyone]

[Carson]

Relax.

[kcchiefs6465]

[For L.E., This post is not intended to promote violence against anyone]

ETA: And that shit took me a long fucking time to write :mad:

[kcchiefs6465]

Relax.
(*While doing my best Rockwell impression..*) "I always feel like, somebody's waatching meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."

ETA: Not directed towards you. Or anyone else here, for that matter.

[tod evans]

(*While doing my best Rockwell impression..*) "I always feel like, somebody's waatching meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."


They are:rolleyes:

[kcchiefs6465]

They are:rolleyes:
ETA: Not directed towards you. Or anyone else here, for that matter.

I was more talking about the police state. Probably why I don't say much to the subject. Just to be clear.

[tod evans]

ETA: Not directed towards you. Or anyone else here, for that matter.

I was more talking about the police state. Probably why I don't say much to the subject. Just to be clear.

I'm chuckling.........

I knew that wasn't directed at me...

[Lishy]

Excuse me, but we need a federal reform of the police system, if only to better define what is "excessive force".

[tod evans]

Excuse me, but we need a federal reform of the police system, if only to better define what is "excessive force".

The only "federal" reform we need is to cut ALL federal funding not authorized in the constitution.

Everything will fall in place once the money stops.

[osan]

Violence is not the path to liberty. It will only strengthen the state.

Excuse me, but am I to take it that you are suggesting we are obliged to suffer the tyrant's bully boys? Is that really what you mean, because that is what you imply in terms leaving precious skinny space for wiggling.

Because the courts (you know, those people whom we hire and PAY to administer justice) now routinely and almost categorically refuse to prosecute a cop for just about any act no matter how heinous, I am of the clear mind that people must take justice into their hands. I would fully support any group that would hunt, try, and punish any cop who has committed a crime. If I knew of such people, I would lend them all aid and support and if "authorities" questioned me on the issue, I would refuse them any information and might even bid them kiss Obama's ass because I would not insult my own cheeks with their manky and spooge-crusted lips.

[Lishy]

The only "federal" reform we need is to cut ALL federal funding not authorized in the constitution.

Everything will fall in place once the money stops.
The constitution is federal, and police should not be above it. Hence, it is a federal issue.

[tod evans]

The constitution is federal, and police should not be above it. Hence, it is a federal issue.

Are you looking for more laws here?

Or to have the Supreme Court clarify one of the thousands already written?

I'm just not getting it?:o

[osan]

Yes, you do have the moral right. But doing so against a gang of people calling themselves "the police" is impractical in terms of the end goal of achieving liberty. Additionally, unlike the common criminal, there is the fact that they for the most part do not understand that their jobs are immoral and entail the initiation of violence.


Sorry to be direct, but this is the cowardly position. Oh, it's not "practical"... ooooo hooo hoo... Jesus Christ - get some sense and go buy a pair of balls, even if only prosthetic ones.

Have you ever been on the wrong end of a gun? Have you? If not, then you don't know shit about the value of "practical" and should hold your tongue. It is clear you know not enough about sense. And yes, I have been on the wrong end of one. More than once.

We have an old rule of thumb when we teach gun disarms, especially to newbies. Generally, the disarm techniques, effective as they are, are ONLY to be used if you feel you will be shot no matter what you do. If you feel sufficiently certain that a bullet is in your immediate future, regardless whether you hand over the wallet (or whatever), then you have nothing to lose by executing the technique. When cops begin behaving in the manners cited here, you have NOTHING to lose by killing them. The worst that will happen is you end up the say you would if you fail to resist: dead. At best, you skip and the cops get to spend the next 20 years pounding salt up their backsides in gnawing, bitter frustration.

Your stated position on this issue is dangerously ignorant at best and despicably cowardly at worst. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume the former.

[bolil]

They are lucky his dad is not more eager for vengeance. Are these pigs being held for murder? I think not. People get all hot and messy over Tranyon, and Kelly Thomas is why that pisses me off. At least Trayvon died quickly, the most any of us can ask, Kelly Thomas had the pleasure of being tortured to death, on camera, by cops. This is as messed up as the Daniel Pearl video... The media covers some stories, and covers others up. Does it bother anyone else that, indirectly, we paid the cowards to do this?

[tod evans]

They are lucky his dad is not more eager for vengeance. Are these pigs being held for murder? I think not.

2 have been indicted the remainder have not.

[osan]

Now they're trying to blame it on the medics:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/kelly-thomas-medics-not-cops-to-blame-for-death-defense-says-.html



http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Doc-says-chest-compression-led-to-homeless-death-3542916.php

I give 2:1 they skate. In that case they must be hunted and given their rightful desserts. This must not be allowed to stand. Life in prison for both, not possibility of parole, and they must go to general population for their duty as pass-around girls. They would sell their mothers to a Mexicali whore house to avoid the justice I would see served upon them.

[kcchiefs6465]

2 have been indicted the remainder have not.
Voluntary manslaughter and abuse of power am I right?

[tod evans]

Voluntary manslaughter and abuse of power am I right?

I'm just regurgitating MSM blather, I haven't actually seen an indictment.

[Indy Vidual]

Sick topic is sick.
What country is this Fullerton place in? :o

[patriot2008]

It's sad. The Feds are more interested in Going after our good Sheriffs like this.

Ariz. sheriff: 'I will not surrender to federal government'
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Headlines/Default.aspx?id=1596090

[Captain Shays]

At some point people are going to start getting together and fight back. It's a shame because a lot of us really want to uphold the law and actually help the police but their actions seem to be driving a wedge between those who would help and themselves

[awake]

This is so sad...

[kcchiefs6465]

It's sad. The Feds are more interested in Going after our good Sheriffs like this.

Ariz. sheriff: 'I will not surrender to federal government'
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Headlines/Default.aspx?id=1596090
Do not even get me started on Sheriff Joe.

[kcchiefs6465]

I'm just regurgitating MSM blather, I haven't actually seen an indictment.
Was feeling lazy earlier :D. Here's what I found:
Officer Manuel Ramos, 37, a 10-year veteran, was charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter in the beating death of Thomas, 37, at a bus depot. If convicted, Ramos could face a life prison term. He remained in jail Wednesday, with his bail set at $1 million, after his arraignment was delayed Wednesday.

A second officer, Cpl. Jay Cicinelli, 39, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and using excessive force; Cicinelli faces a maximum prison term of four years. He pleaded not guilty, posted bail of $25,000 and was scheduled to be released from custody late Wednesday.

Utterly ridiculous. Second degree murder charges for a man getting beat to death? And it's all on camera? If this doesn't prove the fact that 'we' use a different legal system from L.E., nothing will.

ETA: Not to mention four got off scott free.

[tod evans]

If you or I commit a crime in concert and someone dies we are both guilty of the same murder charge.

This double standard for cops is bullshit!

At the very least cops 1 & 2 should be tried for the murder and if the others stood by complacently then they were accessories.

Only if the others actively stopped the beating taking place were they not guilty after the fact.

[Captain Shays]

I am happy with 2nd degree murder for the first guy but not the second guy. I agree with Tod on this one He should be charged the same as Ramos.

We still have hope for a positive outcome during sentencing. Maybe they'll get hit as hard as they rightfully deserve. I would like to see them get life

[Anti Federalist]

I am happy with 2nd degree murder for the first guy but not the second guy. I agree with Tod on this one He should be charged the same as Ramos.

We still have hope for a positive outcome during sentencing. Maybe they'll get hit as hard as they rightfully deserve. I would like to see them get life

2 to 4 with time served.

Count on it.

[Pericles]

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?

Had to login just to +rep this post.

[kylejack]

With regard to the other cops, they came upon a scene where a man was resisting and assisted with the arrest. They weren't aware that Kelly Thomas had been unlawfully threatened by the other officer. I think they're shameful for not stopping Cicinelli, but I don't know that I would say they are accessories to murder. They should certainly be kicked off the police force, though.

[tod evans]

With regard to the other cops, they came upon a scene where a man was resisting and assisted with the arrest. They weren't aware that Kelly Thomas had been unlawfully threatened by the other officer. I think they're shameful for not stopping Cicinelli, but I don't know that I would say they are accessories to murder. They should certainly be kicked off the police force, though.

Cops beating an already bloody prisoner in handcuffs? Others "joining in" isn't "assisting with an arrest".

How in the world could you make that statement after watching the video?

[kylejack]

Cops beating an already bloody prisoner in handcuffs? Others "joining in" isn't "assisting with an arrest".
No, those officers were not beating him. That was all Cicinelli. Thomas was not already handcuffed when they arrived.

[kcchiefs6465]

Had to login just to +rep this post.
Perhaps I misspoke. Violence is never the answer; when you have federal laws stipulating a 1-5 year prison sentence and federal trolls waiting to report you.

ETA: In all seriousness. I do not advocate violence.

[tod evans]

No, those officers were not beating him. That was all Cicinelli. Thomas was not already handcuffed when they arrived.

I didn't want to watch that again but you're right about him not being cuffed when cops 2 & 3 arrive and join in the beating, it looks like cops 5 & 6 just help smother him for a while.

But cops 2, 3 & 4 definitely took part in the beating.

[kcchiefs6465]

I didn't want to watch that again but you're right about him not being cuffed when cops 2 & 3 arrive and join in the beating, it looks like cops 5 & 6 just help smother him for a while.

But cops 2, 3 & 4 definitely took part in the beating.
If someone dies during the commission of a felony... well, let's just say the charges would be a little bit different for a mundane. ALL of the cops on scene should be charged with FIRST degree murder. (along with a slew of other charges)

[tod evans]

If someone dies during the commission of a felony... well, let's just say the charges would be a little bit different for a mundane. ALL of the cops on scene should be charged with FIRST degree murder. (along with a slew of other charges)

The prosecutor of this case needs to be called to task.

[kylejack]

The Orange County DA is prosecuting it himself.

[kylejack]

Also, the DA says he is still considering charges against Wolfe, the first cop to hit Kelly.

[kcchiefs6465]

Also, the DA says he is still considering charges against Wolfe, the first cop to hit Kelly.
Justice is served.

[osan]

The Orange County DA is prosecuting it himself.


No possible conflict of interest there. Nope.

All such cases should have a special prosecutor and fuck the locals. When those NYC cops murdered Amadou Dialo, Morgenthau's office prosecuted. I listened, blow by blow on WBAI and it became embarrassingly apparent that the Manhattan DA had NO interest in the case. And so naturally the murderers skated. The whole trial was a massive travesty put on for show purposes only, and not a very good effort at that; further evidence of the profound depth of the DA's contempt for the people of NYC. It was enough to make we hope that hell truly exists so that I can be there to torment them into eternity. There is nothing worse on the planet than a criminal operating under the impunity of the state imprimatur. Child molesters are as God himself in comparison with these filth. It appears the human race will indeed never learn its lessons.

[kylejack]

No possible conflict of interest there. Nope.

All such cases should have a special prosecutor and fuck the locals. When those NYC cops murdered Amadou Dialo, Morgenthau's office prosecuted. I listened, blow by blow on WBAI and it became embarrassingly apparent that the Manhattan DA had NO interest in the case. And so naturally the murderers skated. The whole trial was a massive travesty put on for show purposes only, and not a very good effort at that; further evidence of the profound depth of the DA's contempt for the people of NYC. It was enough to make we hope that hell truly exists so that I can be there to torment them into eternity. There is nothing worse on the planet than a criminal operating under the impunity of the state imprimatur. Child molesters are as God himself in comparison with these filth. It appears the human race will indeed never learn its lessons.
Well, I think this guy means business.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN-gIRJoWNU

[GuerrillaXXI]

Why didnt we merely educate the British instead of fighting them when we declared independence?Exactly.

I don't wish to seem cross, but many in the freedom movement badly need a reality check:

(1) Freedom is not something you beg and plead for. It's not something you try to get by "reasoning" with the power-mad. Freedom is something that has to be TAKEN. If you can only get freedom by begging for it, then you're not really free at all, since even if you're granted privileges in response to your begging, those privileges can be taken away by FORCE at any time. To use an analogy, a dog on a 50-foot leash isn't any more free than a dog on a 5-foot leash, since the dog on the long leash CAN be put on a short leash whenever its master decides to do so.

(2) The only way to take freedom is through (a) the implicit threat of force, (b) the explicit threat of force, or (c) the actual use of force.

(3) Force has to be either economic or physical. If a population can't win its freedom and guarantee justice through economic means (such as boycotts), then its ONLY hope is to use violence.

[Captain Shays]

Exactly.

I don't wish to seem cross, but many in the freedom movement badly need a reality check:

(1) Freedom is not something you beg and plead for. It's not something you try to get by "reasoning" with the power-mad. Freedom is something that has to be TAKEN. If you can only get freedom by begging for it, then you're not really free at all, since even if you're granted privileges in response to your begging, those privileges can be taken away by FORCE at any time. To use an analogy, a dog on a 50-foot leash isn't any more free than a dog on a 5-foot leash, since the dog on the long leash CAN be put on a short leash whenever its master decides to do so.

(2) The only way to take freedom is through (a) the implicit threat of force, (b) the explicit threat of force, or (c) the actual use of force.

(3) Force has to be either economic or physical. If a population can't win its freedom and guarantee justice through economic means (such as boycotts), then its ONLY hope is to use violence.

That was close to the sermons being preached from pulpits prior to the Revolunionary War

[kcchiefs6465]

Well, I think this guy means business.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN-gIRJoWNU
Seriously.... What part about him means business? The fact that these officers BEAT A MAN TO DEATH and received only second degree murder charges? Or the fact that only TWO OUT OF SIX were charged? But since he is considering charges against another, he is suddenly for the people? Hardly the case. The public outrage is the only reason he said that. These cops will receive nothing more than slaps on the wrists, when they should receive the death penalty; as anyone else would for beating a man into a coma, and walking around the body speaking nonchalantly about your injuries/how it was the fight of your life. By the way, I do not have 46:00 to spend watching a tough talking prosecutor. If it wasn't for the 50,000 angry calls to his office he never would have held a press conference. Justice will never be served in this case. They beat this man in the head with their taser for Christ's sake. Anyone who feels a second degree murder charge is adequate, please elaborate.

[osan]

Well, I think this guy means business.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN-gIRJoWNU

Do you think? Lets see: he begins with singing the praises of OC police. He then alerts us that they will not be prosecuting the other officers. He clearly and explicitly notes that Kelly Thomas was in fear for his life based on what Ramos threatened. That is assault, yet there were no assault charges on the litany. These earn him a significant credibility fail. Time, I suppose, will tell. I hope those two burn big time.

[kylejack]

Do you think? Lets see: he begins with singing the praises of OC police. He then alerts us that they will not be prosecuting the other officers. He clearly and explicitly notes that Kelly Thomas was in fear for his life based on what Ramos threatened. That is assault, yet there were no assault charges on the litany. These earn him a significant credibility fail. Time, I suppose, will tell. I hope those two burn big time.
Assault is a lesser included offense of murder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_included_offense. It's the same reason Cicinelli isn't charged with battery. Besides, murder is the big prize. The assault was probably a misdemeanor.

[kcchiefs6465]

I am willing to bet California has stipulations on the book stating when someone dies during the commission of a felony, it is first degree murder. Say if someone kicks in a person's door and takes the homeowner at gunpoint to rob him; the homeowner has a heart attack and dies, this would be first degree murder charges for the home invader. Anyone who planned this crime, would be charged with first degree murder. Even the "lookout" outside of the house, would be charged with first degree murder. The "getaway driver" would be charged with first degree murder. Every last one of the cops that did not stop this attack, but rather assisted in it, or even watched it occur, should be charged with first degree murder. Even if they charge and convict every officer on scene (which they have no plans on doing) for second degree murder, that is not justice. At least not in my eyes.

[kylejack]

Yes, the felony murder rule. Eligible felonies are arson, robbery, burglary, carjacking, train wrecking, kidnapping, mayhem, torture, rape, unlawful acts of sodomy, unlawful acts of oral copulation, forcible acts of penetration, and lewd acts with a minor.

[kcchiefs6465]

Yes, the felony murder rule. Eligible felonies are arson, robbery, burglary, carjacking, train wrecking, kidnapping, mayhem, torture, rape, unlawful acts of sodomy, unlawful acts of oral copulation, forcible acts of penetration, and lewd acts with a minor.
Torture, you say?

[tod evans]

When I worked the ambulance crew in the Navy we had a rash of PCP OD's and those guys had the strength of 2 men....

We never ganged up on and tried to beat into submission any of those guys, not once!

First off KT was much smaller than every "cop" there, he was unarmed and pretty much unclothed....No boots specifically.

Getting away from all of the positioning surrounding this fiasco, it's just plain wrong!

There's been some kind of breakdown in morals/ethics/logic and even law for just one of these incidents to take place let alone repeatedly.

[kcchiefs6465]

Getting away from all of the positioning surrounding this fiasco, it's just plain wrong!

There's been some kind of breakdown in morals/ethics/logic and even law for just one of these incidents to take place let alone repeatedly.
Exactly. I wonder if they will ever release why they were originally called to the scene in the first place. Tresspassing? Loitering? Suspicious person? This case leaves me at a loss for words sometimes.

[kylejack]

Torture, you say?
Yeah, that part piqued my curiosity too. Here's the definition in California law:

"Every person who, with the intent to cause cruel or extreme pain and suffering for the purpose of revenge, extortion, persuasion, or for any sadistic purpose, inflicts great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7 upon the person of another, is guilty of torture."3

[kcchiefs6465]

Yeah, that part piqued my curiosity too. Here's the definition in California law:

"Every person who, with the intent to cause cruel or extreme pain and suffering for the purpose of revenge, extortion, persuasion, or for any sadistic purpose, inflicts great bodily injury as defined in Section 12022.7 upon the person of another, is guilty of torture."
+rep. My laziness is getting a reputation of it's own. :D Seems like a hard case to prove; but if I were the prosecutor I would definitely have to point out the officer's first statements as he was approaching the man, as well as point out the excessive amount of times the taser was used. A picture of this man's disfigured face would be one of my key exhibits. No juror in their right "conscience" could consider this anything but. His screams and cries for his dad would echo that courtroom for days. Make no doubt about it, the jurors would be in tears. I really do believe this is defined as torture. Definitely about the most sadistic thing I've ever seen, and it could be argued that this beating was "revenge" for the victim's lack of respect for L.E.

ETA: And his intent is pretty clear cut from his first statements, as well as putting on his latex gloves.

[kylejack]

Well, part of the problem is that different people were doing different things. Ramos just created the deadly situation. Cicinelli did most of the punching.

[thoughtomator]

Then they're both murderers and ought to be convicted as such. First degree should be easily provable, this kind of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum and I would wager quite a bit that there is additional evidence waiting to be had to prove an established pattern of abuse by these cops.

[thoughtomator]

Then they're both murderers and ought to be convicted as such. First degree should be easily provable, this kind of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum and I would wager quite a bit that there is additional evidence waiting to be had to prove an established pattern of abuse by these cops.

[phill4paul]

If it were Mundanes the list of charges would be this long

<





















>

[Pericles]

Exactly.

I don't wish to seem cross, but many in the freedom movement badly need a reality check:

(1) Freedom is not something you beg and plead for. It's not something you try to get by "reasoning" with the power-mad. Freedom is something that has to be TAKEN. If you can only get freedom by begging for it, then you're not really free at all, since even if you're granted privileges in response to your begging, those privileges can be taken away by FORCE at any time. To use an analogy, a dog on a 50-foot leash isn't any more free than a dog on a 5-foot leash, since the dog on the long leash CAN be put on a short leash whenever its master decides to do so.

(2) The only way to take freedom is through (a) the implicit threat of force, (b) the explicit threat of force, or (c) the actual use of force.

(3) Force has to be either economic or physical. If a population can't win its freedom and guarantee justice through economic means (such as boycotts), then its ONLY hope is to use violence.

I'd say I'm at 2(a) right now ....

[Captain Shays]

One is lead to ponder all the people these two, these four or five have tortured, beaten, or intimidated and haven't been caught or prosecuted. Hopefully others will come forward with their own complaints to amplify their mentality as exhibited during this horrible murder. This couldn't have just begun with Kelly. There must be others who didn't die. Who knows? Maybe these scumbags have killed people and got rid of the evidence before anyone else showed up. In fact, I wonder how many missing persons around this country are because of cops killing them with tasers or beating, shooting, kicking and clubbing them to death? Come on. If you were a cop who had that attitude toward people and you acted out and "accidently" wound up killing them is it to hard to believe that they would just get rid of the evidence so they wouldn't go through all the hoop la la?
At the very minimum there MUST be other victems of these cops. Maybe not full blown murder like they did to Kelly but beaten enough to scare them from EVER telling anyone about it. Maybe now if they're out there they'll have the courage to come forth as witnesses

[tod evans]

You must remember bullies only pick on the weakest, those who for some reason or another are unable to "defend" themselves.

I would imagine there's more than a few hookers/junkies/homeless people who these fine examples of LEO have "serviced".....But without video there's no case.



One is lead to ponder all the people these two, these four or five have tortured, beaten, or intimidated and haven't been caught or prosecuted. Hopefully others will come forward with their own complaints to amplify their mentality as exhibited during this horrible murder. This couldn't have just begun with Kelly. There must be others who didn't die. Who knows? Maybe these scumbags have killed people and got rid of the evidence before anyone else showed up. In fact, I wonder how many missing persons around this country are because of cops killing them with tasers or beating, shooting, kicking and clubbing them to death? Come on. If you were a cop who had that attitude toward people and you acted out and "accidently" wound up killing them is it to hard to believe that they would just get rid of the evidence so they wouldn't go through all the hoop la la?
At the very minimum there MUST be other victems of these cops. Maybe not full blown murder like they did to Kelly but beaten enough to scare them from EVER telling anyone about it. Maybe now if they're out there they'll have the courage to come forth as witnesses

[phill4paul]

I'd say I'm at 2(a) right now ....

My options shift by the second. I'm worried that I'm at a disadvantage by using the linear force continuum when an aggressor might be using a a circular force continuum. I consider my options on a sliding scale that is measured in seconds not philosophy.

[kcchiefs6465]

You must remember bullies only pick on the weakest, those who for some reason or another are unable to "defend" themselves.
I would imagine there's more than a few hookers/junkies/homeless people who these fine examples of LEO have "serviced".....But without video there's no case.
Move along now; there's nothing to see here. Wish I had a night-stick smiley :(

[Travlyr]

I'd say I'm at 2(a) right now ....
I'm not far off either. The number of these uniformed and badged meatheads caught on video beating the citizens is disgusting. The number that are not on video or otherwise reported is concerning.

[Anti Federalist]

My options shift by the second. I'm worried that I'm at a disadvantage by using the linear force continuum when an aggressor might be using a a circular force continuum. I consider my options on a sliding scale that is measured in seconds not philosophy.

Wisdom.

I owe you a rep when I get more ammo

[kcchiefs6465]

--

[Captain Shays]

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." --James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, 1788


So is that why people don't fight back? Is that why we don't use at least the threat of violence a or b to stop the tyranny? That it happens "over there to that guy" but not in our face every day where we can see it happen?
I used to hate those Rodney King rioters for what they did to Reginold Denny and other innocent people but I totally understood why they felt the way they did. Unfortunately many of them wrongly blamed "white people". I guess some around here will say that some of us are blaming all cops by our comments. I don't think that's true however. I think by reading these posts what we're all concerned about is the abuse of authority by some. Not all.
The thing is, we also see it increasing in the number of instances and the severity of the abuse. I see it coming at me from all sides. It seems that just about every day there is another bill passed that takes away our freedom or totally violates the letter and spirit of our Constitution. The rate of growth of government in size, spending and intrusiveness into our lives has metastacized into ful blown cancer. All the while the "symptoms" (Kelly Thomas-Hope Steffy) more visible.

Not to be an insitgater but it's clear to me that this is going to come to a head at some point. The government and LE WILL push us too far at some point and I predict it's going to get ugly.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." --James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, 1788


So is that why people don't fight back? Is that why we don't use at least the threat of violence a or b to stop the tyranny? That it happens "over there to that guy" but not in our face every day where we can see it happen?
I used to hate those Rodney King rioters for what they did to Reginold Denny and other innocent people but I totally understood why they felt the way they did. Unfortunately many of them wrongly blamed "white people". I guess some around here will say that some of us are blaming all cops by our comments. I don't think that's true however. I think by reading these posts what we're all concerned about is the abuse of authority by some. Not all.
The thing is, we also see it increasing in the number of instances and the severity of the abuse. I see it coming at me from all sides. It seems that just about every day there is another bill passed that takes away our freedom or totally violates the letter and spirit of our Constitution. The rate of growth of government in size, spending and intrusiveness into our lives has metastacized into ful blown cancer. All the while the "symptoms" (Kelly Thomas-Hope Steffy) more visible.

Not to be an insitgater but it's clear to me that this is going to come to a head at some point. The government and LE WILL push us too far at some point and I predict it's going to get ugly.

Nicely Stated Captain Shays

[Captain Shays]

You must remember bullies only pick on the weakest, those who for some reason or another are unable to "defend" themselves.

I would imagine there's more than a few hookers/junkies/homeless people who these fine examples of LEO have "serviced".....But without video there's no case.

The trouble is Tod that as the government grows bigger and stronger we ALL become the weakest among us.

[tod evans]

The trouble is Tod that as the government grows bigger and stronger we ALL become the weakest among us.

We have been for a long time.

It's just now with the internet and social media, video recordings etc. that Joe Citizen is becoming aware...

Convenient that as as the economy tanks "terroristic" activity necessitates more of these bullies roaming the streets with guns and body armor.

But wait..........Most of the "terrorists" have turned out to be more government agents.....

Hummmm?

[Jonse]

Sickening.

You'd think maybe people would have learned from the Rodney King beating that this sort of thing is wrong, but nope...doesn't look like we've come very far since then.

The fact that cops like this are still hired is a clear sign that obviously not enough is being done to determine the psychological health of a police officer. Cracks in their psyche must undoubtedly have had to show before now, yet somehow it was not identified.

It's also pretty sad how I see a few people saying things like "if he had followed orders this wouldn't have happened". It's easy to take that stance when some asshole cop pepper sprays kids in the face for protesting. However, somebody died resulting from this particular incident. Aside from his obvious inability to cooperate related to his disorder, excessive force is NEVER acceptable. They are supposed to be servants of the public and in no way is beating the shit out of someone catastrophically past the point of being subdued serving the public.

I'm glad to hear these cops got prison sentences. They will in no way be missed.

[catdd]

I just see it as more proof of the demise of this nation. The devaluing of the dollar, police acting more and more like brutal soldiers of the Roman Empire, socialists vs capitalists, black vs white.... Nobody seems to be capable of seeing the big picture other than us. "Most of our problems are the result of not respecting the Rule of Law - the Constitution of the United States." RP

[Captain Shays]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVdpKsc_qbY&feature=youtu.be

I am really afraid of the evil that has overtaken our country

[Captain Shays]

I'd suggest that the only person that "created" anything in this particular case was the asshole cop who gunned down this man's stepson, in a fucking school office, under questionable circumstances, and never so much as lost a day's pay over it.

That only confirmed what I already knew. It's been brewing a very long time. Maybe since I saw three cops beat the snot out of my friend, throw him down a flight of stairs hand cuffed behind his back at the round house in Philly and then proceed to cuff him to a pole and beat him even more. Then they came after me. One of them put a switchblade to my throat lifting me to my toes while another punched my in the gut. I went down and they all took turns punching and kicking me. I was 17 years old and got caught with 1/32 of a gram of hashish.
I watched every night on TV during the 60's how they beat protesters. How they beat black people who just wanted to have the same rights as everyone else.
Over the years every time I saw a black family be pulled over on one of New Jersey's roads, they ALWAYS had them behind the car as the cops searched it making those poor people look like criminals. Even little kids would be there waiting behind the cars.
I remember how four kids were killed at Kent State and 8 others shot one of them cripled for life. I remember what they did to the family at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Countless upon countless abuses. Countless innocent people languishing in jails all across our country. Countless people harrassed, tased, murdered and their lives ruined by authoritarian power hungry police and government officials. No this just didn't start with the words of AF or my 16 yr old autistic step son being shot five times at school by a cop who got away with it.

What I see in the deployment of 30,000 drones and passage of NDAA only continues the straight line from that to now. And YES I am very concerned.