Yoopers considering seceding from MI

[Kluge]

Would love to hear Pete's take on this.

With all the messes in Detroit/Lansing, can't say I blame them.


Would it be called the State of Northern Michigan? How about the State of Superior?

Michigan's Upper Peninsula is going to need a new name if it secedes to become the 51st state.

And that's exactly what they're talking about up in Marquette County, where the issue was raised at the last Marquette County Board of Commissioners meeting and quickly spread via several U.P. media outlets.

"Don't you think it would be kind of nice to start from scratch?" asked Marquette County Commissioner Mike Quayle, who first raised the issue with the commission. "It would be kind of interesting to see what kind of government we could form up here. Maybe we could be a showcase for the rest of the United States."

This isn't the first time there has been talk of the U.P. shedding itself of the trolls. (Trolls are creatures who live under the bridge, in this case, the Mackinac Bridge.) U.P. secession has come up periodically ever since Michigan lost what's called the Toledo War in 1836, and ended up with the U.P. instead of Toledo. The Michigan Legislature defeated U.P. secession by a single vote in the 1970s.

And Quayle concedes that secession probably is too complicated to accomplish this time, as well. The path to secession is a migraine, not a mere headache -- the state Legislature must approve the U.P. seceding and then Congress must OK a 51st state. Which peninsula would get the Mackinac Bridge -- and its tolls? What would be the new state's capital?

But a guy can dream.

Leery of Lansing
The half-in-jest secession conversations reflect a very real feeling among many locals that they are losing local control to Lansing, along with an uncomfortable feeling that Lansing is spending too much time in their wallets.

"I don't know how serious the conversation about secession is, but I know the frustration with our legislators and Lansing is at a boil," said Marquette County Commissioner Steve Pence, who described the current U.P. angst as semi-serious talk of secession and very serious feelings of disenfranchisement.

There also is the growing notion among many in the U.P. that Lansing is trampling the rights of local government, stirred in part by two issues:

• The state Legislature, as some locals see it, "rammed through" in 17 days a bill allowing anyone to mine land, undermining a Michigan Supreme Court ruling that said local government could determine which areas are off-limits to mining based on residential or other concerns.

• Lansing lawmakers are considering changing the way some ore mines are taxed. Currently, the mines pay property taxes, which go to the local government. The new tax would create a severance tax on the ore as it is mined, which many in the U.P. say would send the money to Lansing instead.

But Sara Wurfel, spokeswoman for Gov. Rick Snyder, said the severance tax would ensure "a long-term, sustainable rural economic development strategy now and 20 years from now, rather than booms and busts of years past."

Snyder, she said, "feels very strongly about the importance of the Upper Peninsula," has made multiple visits to the community and has assisted with issues including power grid reliability and harnessing mining opportunities.

The bottom line, folks in the U.P. say, is that Lansing takes a whole lot more in tax dollars than the U.P. gets back. And in this peninsula with only about 3% of the state's population but more than 30% of the land, that's just not cutting it.

"I feel that they're attempting to use the U.P. as a resource colony...

More at link: http://www.freep.com/article/20120506/NEWS06/205060541/51st-state-Yoopers-are-talking-up-secession-from-Michigan-again

[truelies]

The UP has been kicking this around for 40 years. Truth is for all of that time they have been a net financial drain on the rest of Michigan.

[Kluge]

The UP has been kicking this around for 40 years. Truth is for all of that time they have been a net financial drain on the rest of Michigan.

Didn't know that.

[rp08orbust]

the state Legislature must approve the U.P. seceding

LOL, asking for permission to secede.

[VBRonPaulFan]

LOL, asking for permission to secede.

yeah, i thought that was humorous as well. that's like asking for permission to not be raped.

[Krzysztof Lesiak]

That would be kinda cool. I like the UP a great deal. Lot better than the lower peninsula.

[Kluge]

That would be kinda cool. I like the UP a great deal. Lot better than the lower peninsula.

Personally, I'd just like to see some politicians have the courage to carry out these sorts of things. I don't know if it's better for the UP or not, but it'd be a great opportunity for some Ron Paul folks to get in on building a state from the ground-up.

[pcosmar]

The UP has been kicking this around for 40 years. Truth is for all of that time they have been a net financial drain on the rest of Michigan.

Bullshit.
Though there are alot of folks that have become dependent on state handouts,, most would rather do without them.
I personally think the "dependency" has been encouraged by Lansing to keep folks under the thumb. (so to speak)

My Daddy helped build the bridge.. I would not be saddened by correcting that mistake.

[Anti Federalist]

LOL, asking for permission to secede.


yeah, i thought that was humorous as well. that's like asking for permission to not be raped.

Made me chuckle too.

Shows lack of serious intent, sadly.

[pcosmar]

Didn't know that.

I did.
http://www.copperconnection.com/images/bumpersticker-sayya.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_%28proposed_U.S._state%29
http://www.motherjones.com/road-trip-blog/2010/08/51st-state-inmichigan


The Upper Peninsula has about as much in common with Detroit as Manhattan does to Manhattan, Kansas. And that's why, for the last 150 or so years, Yoopers have talked about blowing up the bridge, breaking away, and starting a state of their own called "Superior."

[Demigod]

LOL, asking for permission to secede.

Unless you plan to secede with violence the only other way is for both sides to agree.

The agreement is mostly about how much the seceding region would compensate the what is at the moment their central government so that it would not be of interest to stop the seceding.From what I read there would be a conflict about who gets the bridge,if the northern peninsula would want to secede fast and without problems it would probably need to give up that bridge.

[pcosmar]

Unless you plan to secede with violence the only other way is for both sides to agree.

The agreement is mostly about how much the seceding region would compensate the what is at the moment their central government so that it would not be of interest to stop the seceding.From what I read there would be a conflict about who gets the bridge,if the northern peninsula would want to secede fast and without problems it would probably need to give up that bridge.

The Yooper attitude is
Blow the Bridge.

I did not invent that,, It has been said by many since the damn thing was built.

[Demigod]

002

[Domalais]

Bullshit.
Though there are alot of folks that have become dependent on state handouts,, most would rather do without them.
I personally think the "dependency" has been encouraged by Lansing to keep folks under the thumb. (so to speak)

My Daddy helped build the bridge.. I would not be saddened by correcting that mistake.


The UP receives more state funding than it pays in. It, essentially, is a welfare recipient. Not just the people, but the local governments.


The lower peninsula is not, in any way, an economic drain on the UP.

[pcosmar]

The lower peninsula is not, in any way, an economic drain on the UP.

??
Where do you live exactly?
My ancestors settled this area.. (There was no bridge then)
And local Governments??? did you know that there is Only ONE city in the eastern UP ? A city of less than 20,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sault_Ste._Marie,_Michigan

Sault Ste. Marie (play /ˌsuː seɪnt məˈriː/) is a city in and the county seat of Chippewa County in the U.S. state of Michigan.[1] It is in the north-eastern end of Michigan's Upper Peninsula, on the Canadian border, separated from its twin city of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, by the St. Marys River. The city is quite isolated, within the Upper Peninsula. The population was 14,144 at the 2010 census, making it the second most populous city in the Upper Peninsula.

Oh,, and I am not on welfare. (though I am tempted some times,, just to contribute to the collapse)

[oyarde]

The first plans for the UP to become a state , that , I am aware of , date to 1820. They even had a pretty good name picked out , I am a bit South of Pete, but if I was up there , I would be all for it.

[MozoVote]

I think I've seen discussion too about the northern counties of Wisconsin wanting to join, to get away from the influence of Madison.

[Kluge]

I think I've seen discussion too about the northern counties of Wisconsin wanting to join, to get away from the influence of Madison.

That would be very interesting.

[oyarde]

I think I've seen discussion too about the northern counties of Wisconsin wanting to join, to get away from the influence of Madison. Yeah , that is correct , pc.'s of Minnesota , Wisconsin and then the entire UP , I would be in , BUT , it would mean I would have to start grwing food later , and cut more wood , so , I hope you all do and I will come visit for Grouse season ;)

[Son of Detroit]

Only been to the UP a few times in my life. Mainly stick to upper lower Michigan. Love the Traverse City area.

[oyarde]

S o d , YOU HAVE to check out the fishing and mushroom hunting sometime.

[Domalais]

??
Where do you live exactly?
My ancestors settled this area.. (There was no bridge then)
And local Governments??? did you know that there is Only ONE city in the eastern UP ? A city of less than 20,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sault_Ste._Marie,_Michigan


Oh,, and I am not on welfare. (though I am tempted some times,, just to contribute to the collapse)

Currently in Georgia, but I grew up near Ann Arbor. A large majority of my cousins and aunts/uncles went to Northern and/or Tech, and my brother lives in Marquette.

The UP receives more tax dollars than it pays in in taxes. Much like the southern US in general. While you personally are not on welfare, you drive on roads that are paved with Detroit metro area tax dollars.


I understand the desire to get away from the social politics of the south, but economically, the UP benefits.

[Kluge]

Currently in Georgia, but I grew up near Ann Arbor. A large majority of my cousins and aunts/uncles went to Northern and/or Tech, and my brother lives in Marquette.

The UP receives more tax dollars than it pays in in taxes. Much like the southern US in general. While you personally are not on welfare, you drive on roads that are paved with Detroit metro area tax dollars.


I understand the desire to get away from the social politics of the south, but economically, the UP benefits.

I've been driving on Michigan roads--they suck. Someone's getting robbed.

[2young2vote]

It would only help if there was a deregulated economy. The only way this would benefit anyone here is if the new government were to actually respect private property rights, have extremely low or non-existent taxes, and deregulate the economy in nearly every imaginable way. It could really becoming a booming economy, like it was in years past, if the new government simply let business take its course.

I think it would be a good idea, but only if the above happened. Otherwise, there would be no point. There would certainly be room for new business in several different industries as long as the new government kept its paws on the floor.

[oyarde]

I've been driving on Michigan roads--they suck. Someone's getting robbed. Toll road ??

[oyarde]

It would only help if there was a deregulated economy. The only way this would benefit anyone here is if the new government were to actually respect private property rights, have extremely low or non-existent taxes, and deregulate the economy in nearly every imaginable way. It could really becoming a booming economy, like it was in years past, if the new government simply let business take its course.

I think it would be a good idea, but only if the above happened. Otherwise, there would be no point. There would certainly be room for new business in several different industries as long as the new government kept its paws on the floor. Ya , old govt taxes no good , not to be replaced by new , no good , govt taxes....

[Domalais]

I've been driving on Michigan roads--they suck. Someone's getting robbed.

Depends on where. The UP's roads are actually better, because there's less freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw-etc.

[oyarde]

I always thought everything North of Kokomo or West Lafayette got worse , then , once I drove in Alaska ....

[pcosmar]

While you personally are not on welfare, you drive on roads that are paved with Detroit metro area tax dollars.

.

And who makes those decisions..?
Who dictates what will be spent here and on what? Who make laws for Detroit,, and them applies them to the UP?

It ain't the Yoopers.


I understand the desire to get away from the social politics of the south, but economically, the UP benefits.

NO.
A few folks that are connected benefit.
Roads?? Unions and Outside contractors make big bucks. Locals do not. The largest employer here is the state,,
So those benefits are benefits to state employees. (and organized crime)

A collapse of the economy would bring a rapid exodus of dead weight from the UP.
Yoopers will survive without State money.

[Domalais]

If you think that the only people who benefit from state dollars are those who are directly paid by the state, then your views on how economies work are a touch naive.

[pcosmar]

If you think that the only people who benefit from state dollars are those who are directly paid by the state, then your views on how economies work are a touch naive.

Explain it to me.

Explain (for instance) how spending $100,000s on electric signs all over the place benefits me. (they tell you to drive slow in ice and snow).
Explain how all the laws restricting and preventing start up business is benefiting me.

Explain how the massive buildup of Border Patrol,, police,, DNR etc. ,, is benefiting anyone up here.

Please explain how the massive prison complex at Kincheloe is a benefit.

Please.. Explain.

[oyarde]

If you think that the only people who benefit from state dollars are those who are directly paid by the state, then your views on how economies work are a touch naive. I dunno about that , you could make the argument the paving contracter gets a fat paycheck and some of that money goes back into the economy , but is it any diffrent than the benefit the local economy would have been able to provide for itself if the tax money was not taken in the first place ?

[oyarde]

Explain it to me.

Explain (for instance) how spending $100,000s on electric signs all over the place benefits me. (they tell you to drive slow in ice and snow).
Explain how all the laws restricting and preventing start up business is benefiting me.

Explain how the massive buildup of Border Patrol,, police,, DNR etc. ,, is benefiting anyone up here.

Please explain how the massive prison complex at Kincheloe is a benefit.

Please.. Explain. While I know nothing of your prison complex , I feeel safe in declaring there is little benefit in that...

[angelatc]

If you think that the only people who benefit from state dollars are those who are directly paid by the state, then your views on how economies work are a touch naive.

The issue is efficiency. Government spending essentially equates to malinvestment, because they aren't spending the dollars as efficiently as the private sector does. They never will, either - this is the very essence of politics. Government spending isn't about anything except winning the next election.

[oyarde]

The issue is efficiency. Government spending essentially equates to malinvestment, because they aren't spending the dollars as efficiently as the private sector does. They never will, either - this is the very essence of politics. Government spending isn't about anything except winning the next election. That is correct , govt is incapable of spending as effeciently as others. Less govt is better.

[angelatc]

The UP receives more tax dollars than it pays in in taxes. Much like the southern US in general. While you personally are not on welfare, you drive on roads that are paved with Detroit metro area tax dollars.


I understand the desire to get away from the social politics of the south, but economically, the UP benefits.

I'm not convinced that's true. Detroit sucks up far more in tax dollars than they pay. The UP doesn't have many jobs, but they don't have many people either. I'm guessing the tax money that comes from the mining industry exceeds the welfare, school and road spending.

ETA: According to this local news story, (http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/211535/14/Yoopers-are-talking-secession-from-Michigan-again?odyssey=tab|topnews|bc|large) which I can't properly embed, the UP sends in more tax dollars than it gets back:

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[Domalais]

Please.. Explain.

A large chunk of the economy of the UP would instantly vanish if the state universities disappeared. You have the immediate impact on employees, followed by the lack of students who normally spend their money in the local economy. Employees of businesses reliant on that spending, and in turn those reliant on their spending, and so on down the line.

You can add other chunks for the prisons, parks, etc.

It's not just those worker's livelihoods, but all those whose jobs depend on the money they spend. The waitress at Red Lobster is not an employee of the state, but in Marquette, you can bet that one in three dollars she makes originated in a paycheck a state employee receieved.

[Domalais]

I dunno about that , you could make the argument the paving contracter gets a fat paycheck and some of that money goes back into the economy , but is it any diffrent than the benefit the local economy would have been able to provide for itself if the tax money was not taken in the first place ?

That's the point. The tax money isn't coming from the local area, it's coming from elsewhere. It's not money that is being spent in different ways by the government, it's money that is being spent in a different place.

If not for state taxes, that money would have been spent in the lower peninsula. It never would have entered the market in the UP.

[Domalais]

The issue is efficiency. Government spending essentially equates to malinvestment, because they aren't spending the dollars as efficiently as the private sector does. They never will, either - this is the very essence of politics. Government spending isn't about anything except winning the next election.

A nice talking point. I'm explaining how markets work in reality, not advocating taxation or government spending.


Saying that nuclear bombs kill people doesn't mean that I support killing people with nuclear bombs.

[angelatc]

A nice talking point. I'm explaining how markets work in reality, not advocating taxation or government spending.


Saying that nuclear bombs kill people doesn't mean that I support killing people with nuclear bombs.

I'm not sure why you think we don't understand how markets work in reality. Oyarde asked the question
"... but is it any diffrent than the benefit the local economy would have been able to provide for itself if the tax money was not taken in the first place ?"

Of course it's different. It's malinvested.

[Domalais]

Malinvested in a different place.


Removing taxation doesn't benefit an area if spending in that area exceeded taxes in that area. That is why the UP has more to lose than gain, IMHO, from secession. They lose the state gravy train and gain... what? Social conservatism?

[pcosmar]

They lose the state gravy train and gain... what?

Independence.
As in the opposite of Dependance.
There are quite a lot of self sufficient folks here. As opposed to those that have more recently flocked to the state tit.

[angelatc]

Malinvested in a different place.


Removing taxation doesn't benefit an area if spending in that area exceeded taxes in that area. That is why the UP has more to lose than gain, IMHO, from secession. They lose the state gravy train and gain... what? Social conservatism?

And you're telling us we don't understand economics? It isn't malinvested if the market is making the decisions, so the opening statement doesn't make sense.

Well for one, they gain the right to decide what areas get to be mined, which is a right the state recently took away from them. Also, as it stands now, local governments can tax those operations, but there's a movement afoot to take that revenue away and give it to Lansing too.

The revenue from the Mackinac Bridge would be a sticking point. Ideally Rick would let the UP have it, and then build that new bridge he so desperately craves using the tax dollars from the LP.

And again, according to the news report I posted, the UP is chalking up a net loss when it comes to their taxation, so your "gravy train" point is moot. The state spending in that area is less than what they're paying.

I know it doesn't seem right to you, but I haven't seen you produce a source for that assertion.

[Domalais]

And you're telling us we don't understand economics? It isn't malinvested if the market is making the decisions, so the opening statement doesn't make sense.

You've decided that I disagree with you, and so you're reading everything in that light.


The state is malinvesting somewhere else. They are taking money from people in place A and spending it in place B. If you remove the state, place A benefits and place B loses. That is the situation that the UP is in.




And again, according to the news report I posted, the UP is chalking up a net loss when it comes to their taxation, so your "gravy train" point is moot. The state spending in that area is less than what they're paying.

I know it doesn't seem right to you, but I haven't seen you produce a source for that assertion.

They aren't counting tax dollars spent on state universities.

[pcosmar]

They aren't counting tax dollars spent on state universities.

Universities are irrelevant to the millions being spent (misspent),, And are largely irrelevant to the people of the UP.

Aside from that,, they are of NO USE to me. or to the vast majority of folks native to this area.

Though I did get my GED at LSSC.. (before it was turned into LSSU)