‘We Are Preparing For Massive Civil War’ Says DHS Informant

[John F Kennedy III]

‘We Are Preparing For Massive Civil War’ Says DHS Informant

Dominique de Kevelioc de Bailleul
Before It’s News
May 4, 2012

In a riveting interview on TruNews Radio, Wednesday, private investigator Doug Hagmann said high-level, reliable sources told him the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is preparing for “massive civil war” in America.

“We have problems . . . The federal government is preparing for civil uprising,” he added, “so every time you hear about troop movements, every time you hear about movements of military equipment, the militarization of the police, the buying of the ammunition, all of this is . . . they (DHS) are preparing for a massive uprising.”

Hagmann goes on to say that his sources tell him the concerns of the DHS stem from a collapse of the U.S. dollar and the hyperinflation a collapse in the value of the world’s primary reserve currency implies to a nation of 311 million Americans, who, for the significant portion of the population, is armed.

Uprisings in Greece is, indeed, a problem, but an uprising of armed Americans becomes a matter of serious national security, a point addressed in a recent report by the Pentagon and highlighted as a vulnerability and threat to the U.S. during war-game exercises at the Department of Defense last year, according to one of the DoD’s war-game participants, Jim Rickards, author of Currency Wars: The Making of the Next Global Crisis.

Through his sources, Hagmann confirmed Rickards’ ongoing thesis of a fear of a U.S. dollar collapse at the hands of the Chinese (U.S. treasury bond holders of approximately $1 trillion) and, possibly, the Russians (threatening to launch a gold-backed ruble as an attractive alternative to the U.S. dollar) in retaliation for aggressive U.S. foreign policy initiatives against China’s and Russia’s strategic allies Iran and Syria.

“The one source that we have I’ve known since 1979,” Hagmann continued. “He started out as a patrol officer and currently he is now working for a federal agency under the umbrella of the Department of Homeland Security; he’s in a position to know what policies are being initiated, what policies are being planned at this point, and he’s telling us right now—look, what you’re seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. We are preparing, we, meaning the government, we are preparing for a massive civil war in this country.”

“There’s no hyperbole here,” he added, echoing Trends Research Institute’s Founder Gerald Celente’s forecast of last year. Celente expects a collapse of the U.S. dollar and riots in America some time this year.

Since Celente’s ‘Civil War’ prediction of last year, executive orders NDAA and National Defense Resources Preparedness were signed into law by President Obama, which are both politically damaging actions taken by a sitting president.

And most recently, requests made by the DHS for the procurement of 450 million rounds of hollow-point ammunition only fuels speculation of an upcoming tragic event expected on American soil.

These major events, as shocking to the American people as they are, have taken place during an election year.

Escalating preparatory activities by the executive branch and DHS throughout the last decade—from the Patriot Act, to countless executive orders drafted to suspend (or strip) American civil liberties “are just the beginning” of the nightmare to come, Hagmann said.

He added, “It’s going to get so much worse toward the election, and I’m not even sure we’re going to have an election in this country. It’s going to be that bad, and this, as well, is coming from my sources. But one source in particular said, ‘look, you don’t understand how bad it is.’ This stuff is real; these people, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), they are ready to fight the American people.”

TruNews‘ Wiles asked Hagmann: who does the DHS expect to fight, in particular? Another North versus South, the Yankees against the Confederates? Hagmann stated the situation is far worse than a struggle between any two factions within the U.S.; it’s an anticipated nationwide emergency event centered on the nation’s currency.

“What they [DHS] are expecting, and again, this is according to my sources, what they’re expecting is the un-sustainability of the American dollar,” Hagmann said. “And we know for a fact that we can no longer service our debt. There’s going to be a period of hyperinflation . . . the dollar will be worthless . . . The economic collapse will be so severe, people won’t be ready for this.”

Source: http://www.trunews.com/listen_now.htm


article here:
http://www.infowars.com/we-are-preparing-for-massive-civil-war-says-dhs-informant/

originally here:
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/2095/785/We_Are_Preparing_For_Massive_Civil_War,_Says_DHS_I nformant.html

[A Son of Liberty]

John Titor

[Elwar]

I figured we had a bit longer than the elections...

[kah13176]

It'll be an uprising in favor of socialism.

[John F Kennedy III]

It'll be an uprising in favor of socialism.

I fucking hope not. But probably.

[robertwerden]

Hog wash, everything is fine, nothing to see here, move along, these aren't the droids your looking for.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/CategoryListing.aspx?catid=79&PN=rfa
http://www.augasonfarms.com/food-storage/entrees
http://www.amazon.com/Fully-Stocked-Medical-First-Aid/dp/B004Q5UASW/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I25MNHNW1JA5J&colid=1PINAYIX48WJT
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[wizardwatson]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

[DamianTV]

Which do you have less trust in, the Propoganda, or the Govt that spews it?

[enjerth]

I figured we had a bit longer than the elections...

If this event is engineered to head off a surge of Paul support that threatens their stranglehold on politics, the better Paul does the more likely the event before November elections.

If they are expecting that we don't even have the 6 months until the election before breaking out in civil war, you can bet that it has something to do with the way that the election politics are heading. And it's not about the regularly scheduled programming, the R vs D game.

[John F Kennedy III]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

I don't see what would be wrong with preparing just in case. There's no need to panic or live in fear. You should always strive to be entirely self sufficient, or as much as possible. Even if there isn't a collapse, there will eventually be an asteriod strike or some other major natural disaster. I'm not saying be afraid, just that a natural disaster will happen and if you're alive to see it, this type of preparedness will prepare you for that as well.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

It doesn't matter what you want. The collapse is a mathematical inevitability whether people like you bury their heads in the sand or not

[azxd]

DHS has been reading the forums LOL

[Demigod]

There is a reason why hallow point bullets are not used in warfare.A police that uses them against the people it should protect has no authority.

[azxd]

Hallow points are not allowed to be used against humans.Why is your police stockpiling them ?Who the F told you that ?
Civilians and LE don't have to abide by the Geneva Convention ... Look it up, if you don't believe me.

[TheTexan]

We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

The vast majority of those capable of 'waking up' have already woken. Most of the people in this movement took hold of freedom the instant Ron Paul offered it to them. Within 5 minutes of seeing my first Ron Paul video so many years ago, I was hooked. Similar stories can be found across these forums. It was like a flip of a switch.

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the country isn't wired to want freedom. They just want to be fed & entertained, control other people's liberties at the expense of their own, and have most of their choices made for them. No amount of education can fix this.

The reason why the Republican Party and the MSM have been marginalizing Ron Paul and pulling out every trick in the book to fight him is not because they don't understand his policies. They know his policies inside out, but simply reject them. Ron Paul's policies of freedom, personal responsibility, and limited government are in direct opposition to their desires to control and be controlled.

They won't ever admit to their tyrannical nature, instead their tendencies manifest themselves as façades of one variety or the other. Those façades being the Republican party or the Democratic party. You see, despite their desire for tyranny, they like to believe they are free. They don't participate in either party from any ideological belief, but instead as a utility to pretend they are free and in control of their lives.

Of course they are not in control of their lives. They are not free. They like enslaving and being enslaved, but can never admit that, because it would force them to acknowledge the very dark realities of their inner nature. Instead they operate in a state of denial, which is why very few of their arguments are rational. When you force them to look at the truth, they get very defensive and if you continue to press, you find outright hostility. Which is what we've been seeing this entire campaign.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear. I cannot convince you that this is true. I hope only to expose you to this idea so that you can come to your own conclusion based on your own experiences. Based on my own experiences I can say with absolute certainty that only a minority of this country wants freedom.

By extension, this country is not going to make progress towards liberty. This country is on a one-way street both to tyranny, and economic collapse. If we continue with our current strategy, we may take a few steps towards liberty. But for every step we take forward, the rest of the country will have taken us five steps backward.

It is no longer a matter of if a collapse is going to happen. The only question is when, and whether or not we as a movement are going down with them.

[Lafayette]

John Titor

He was just about a decade off on his predictions.

[John F Kennedy III]

It doesn't matter what you want. The collapse is a mathematical inevitability whether people like you bury their heads in the sand or not

Very true.

[John F Kennedy III]

DHS has been reading the forums LOL

Lol. I wouldn't be surprised one bit.

[asurfaholic]

This stuff is real; these people, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), they are ready to fight the American people.”

Those motherfuckers are going to lose, badly.

[azxd]

The vast majority of those capable of 'waking up' have already woken. Most of the people in this movement took hold of freedom the instant Ron Paul offered it to them. Within 5 minutes of seeing my first Ron Paul video so many years ago, I was hooked. Similar stories can be found across these forums. It was like a flip of a switch.

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the country isn't wired to want freedom. They just want to be fed & entertained, control other people's liberties at the expense of their own, and have most of their choices made for them. No amount of education can fix this.

The reason why the Republican Party and the MSM have been marginalizing Ron Paul and pulling out every trick in the book to fight him is not because they don't understand his policies. They know his policies inside out, but simply reject them. Ron Paul's policies of freedom, personal responsibility, and limited government are in direct opposition to their desires to control and be controlled.

They won't ever admit to their tyrannical nature, instead their tendencies manifest themselves as façades of one variety or the other. Those façades being the Republican party or the Democratic party. You see, despite their desire for tyranny, they like to believe they are free. They don't participate in either party from any ideological belief, but instead as a utility to pretend they are free and in control of their lives.

Of course they are not in control of their lives. They are not free. They like enslaving and being enslaved, but can never admit that, because it would force them to acknowledge the very dark realities of their inner nature. Instead they operate in a state of denial, which is why very few of their arguments are rational. When you force them to look at the truth, they get very defensive and if you continue to press, you find outright hostility. Which is what we've been seeing this entire campaign.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear. I cannot convince you that this is true. I hope only to expose you to this idea so that you can come to your own conclusion based on your own experiences. Based on my own experiences I can say with absolute certainty that only a minority of this country wants freedom.

By extension, this country is not going to make progress towards liberty. This country is on a one-way street both to tyranny, and economic collapse. If we continue with our current strategy, we may take a few steps towards liberty. But for every step we take forward, the rest of the country will have taken us five steps backward.

It is no longer a matter of if a collapse is going to happen. The only question is when, and whether or not we as a movement are going down with them.Phuck'n A right !!!

[LibForestPaul]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

Millions of people were persecuted in the violent factional struggles that ensued across the country, and suffered a wide range of abuses including public humiliation, arbitrary imprisonment, torture, sustained harassment, and seizure of property. A large segment of the population was forcibly displaced, most notably the transfer of urban youth to rural regions during the Down to the Countryside Movement. Historical relics and artifacts were destroyed. Cultural and religious sites were ransacked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

The Great Leap ended in catastrophe, resulting in tens of millions of excess deaths.[2] Estimates of the death toll range from 18 million[3] to 45 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

It involved a large-scale purge of the Communist Party and government officials, repression of peasants, Red Army leadership, and the persecution of unaffiliated persons, characterized by widespread police surveillance, widespread suspicion of "saboteurs", imprisonment, and arbitrary executions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/world/europe/15iht-bulgaria.4.16989483.html?pagewanted=all

Politics is played to the death in Bulgaria, where the lives of politicians can be as cheap as spent bullets and murky business groups wage a murderous struggle for their cut of everything from real estate deals to millions in European aid.

During a furious political season last year, the home of the chairwoman of a municipal electoral committee was set on fire and the garages of mayors were firebombed.




In the meantime, government spending continued to be high and corruption was rampant. Argentina's public debt grew enormously during the 1990s and the country showed no true signs of being able to pay it. The IMF, however, kept lending money to Argentina and postponing its payment schedules. Massive tax evasion and money laundering explained a large part of the evaporation of funds toward offshore banks.


In addition to the corralito, the Ministry of Economy dictated the pesificación, by which all bank accounts denominated in dollars would be converted to pesos at official rate. This measure angered most savings holders and appeals were made by many citizens to declare it unconstitutional.

After a few months, the exchange rate was left to float more or less freely. The peso suffered a huge depreciation, which in turn prompted inflation (since Argentina depended heavily on imports, and had no means to replace them locally at the time).

The economic situation became steadily worse with regards to inflation and unemployment during 2002. By that time the original 1-to-1 rate had increased to nearly 4 pesos per dollar, while the accumulated inflation since the devaluation was about 80%

Monthly inflation of 10-20%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monthly_inflation_in_Argentina,_2002.png

[LibForestPaul]

Never underestimate the evil of groups of men.

[Carson]

It'll be an uprising in favor of socialism.

If there is it will be because of the back-door, stealth socialism that has sucked us all dry.

No matter how much you and your friends can gather together to build the world the way they want, others, inside and outside of our once great nation can fire up the fake money presses and dictate their way with us.

In the olden days it was still possible to save money. Often someone would come up with an idea, draw everyone together on it and build what ever it was.

Now it is impossible to save in any fashion. Saving through a bank can't keep up with inflation, nor stocks, commodities or any other form we used to use. The reason lies in the stealth socialism of fiat. They have counterfeited the money supply at least 26 times over.

That has put a lot of money in the hands of people that shouldn't have had any say with a dollar in the first place. They've been able to over rule the honest dollar and everyone's power with the honest buck. These honest people used to do marvelous work at furthering mankind. They've all be silenced by the back-door stealth socialism.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/followthemoney/Baseline2.jpg

The way they do it is with the corrupt system of fiat we've allowed for decades.

Maybe this will help make the danger of fiat money clear.

Imagine you and me are setting across from each other. We create enough money to represent all of the world's wealth. Each one of us has one SUPER Dollar in front of him.

You own half of everything and so do I.

I'm the government though. I get bribed into creating a Central Bank.

You're not doing what I want you to be doing so I print up myself eight more SUPER Dollars to manipulate you with.

All of a sudden your SUPER Dollar only represents one tenth of the wealth of the world!

That isn't the only thing though. You need to get busy and get to work because YOU'VE BEEN STIFFED with the bill for the money I PRINTED UP to get YOU TO DO what I WANTED.

That to me represents what has been happening to the economy, and us, and why so many of our occupations just can't keep up with the fake money presses.

[azxd]

Lol. I wouldn't be surprised one bit.He's makin a list
Check'n it twice
Gonna find out who's naught or nice

The DICKtators goons are comin to town.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110531160746/fallouting/images/a/a0/Barrel_of_a_gun.jpg DAMN STRAIGHT IT"S LOADED

They see you when you're creep'n
They know when you're awake

They tell you you've been bad or good

So be bad for goodness sake


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae74oMMQ4ak

[NoOneButPaul]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

THIS.

But i'm still stocking up on guns and ammo.

[Bruno]

Buy gold, silver, and long term food supply

[anaconda]

It'll be an uprising in favor of socialism.

This is why the PTB want it to happen.

[wizardwatson]

It doesn't matter what you want. The collapse is a mathematical inevitability whether people like you bury their heads in the sand or not

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

And I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand by not freaking out constantly about a collapse. I actually used to do that to a large degree but that was way before Paul. My point is actually the reverse of what you are saying, I'm saying the collapsaholics are the ones who seem to want to bury their head in the sand by constantly denying any kind of educational strategy and just waiting for doomsday in their couch fort.

[wizardwatson]

I don't see what would be wrong with preparing just in case. There's no need to panic or live in fear. You should always strive to be entirely self sufficient, or as much as possible. Even if there isn't a collapse, there will eventually be an asteriod strike or some other major natural disaster. I'm not saying be afraid, just that a natural disaster will happen and if you're alive to see it, this type of preparedness will prepare you for that as well.

I wasn't saying don't prepare. I've prepared myself to some extent, its just the fear mongering about a collapse and the cynicism about doing stuff to try to reach out to others that bothers me. Obviously I'm outgunned in this thread judging on the feedback.

[TheTexan]

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

As debt approaches infinity, the probability of the currency becoming useless becomes 1

[azxd]

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

And I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand by not freaking out constantly about a collapse. I actually used to do that to a large degree but that was way before Paul. My point is actually the reverse of what you are saying, I'm saying the collapsaholics are the ones who seem to want to bury their head in the sand by constantly denying any kind of educational strategy and just waiting for doomsday in their couch fort.Being prepared for situations is smart ... Even if you want to categorize it as something else.

Ask those who survived the Great Depression, or any natural disaster ;)

[azxd]

$hit happens

[BlackTerrel]

In a riveting interview on TruNews Radio, Wednesday, private investigator Doug Hagmann said high-level, reliable sources told him the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is preparing for “massive civil war” in America.

A guy who claims high up people told him... seems very well sourced.

Brought to you by the people who brought you Y2K.

[JasonC]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles.

Well said, my friend.

[wizardwatson]

The vast majority of those capable of 'waking up' have already woken. Most of the people in this movement took hold of freedom the instant Ron Paul offered it to them. Within 5 minutes of seeing my first Ron Paul video so many years ago, I was hooked. Similar stories can be found across these forums. It was like a flip of a switch.

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the country isn't wired to want freedom. They just want to be fed & entertained, control other people's liberties at the expense of their own, and have most of their choices made for them. No amount of education can fix this.

The reason why the Republican Party and the MSM have been marginalizing Ron Paul and pulling out every trick in the book to fight him is not because they don't understand his policies. They know his policies inside out, but simply reject them. Ron Paul's policies of freedom, personal responsibility, and limited government are in direct opposition to their desires to control and be controlled.

They won't ever admit to their tyrannical nature, instead their tendencies manifest themselves as façades of one variety or the other. Those façades being the Republican party or the Democratic party. You see, despite their desire for tyranny, they like to believe they are free. They don't participate in either party from any ideological belief, but instead as a utility to pretend they are free and in control of their lives.

Of course they are not in control of their lives. They are not free. They like enslaving and being enslaved, but can never admit that, because it would force them to acknowledge the very dark realities of their inner nature. Instead they operate in a state of denial, which is why very few of their arguments are rational. When you force them to look at the truth, they get very defensive and if you continue to press, you find outright hostility. Which is what we've been seeing this entire campaign.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear. I cannot convince you that this is true. I hope only to expose you to this idea so that you can come to your own conclusion based on your own experiences. Based on my own experiences I can say with absolute certainty that only a minority of this country wants freedom.

By extension, this country is not going to make progress towards liberty. This country is on a one-way street both to tyranny, and economic collapse. If we continue with our current strategy, we may take a few steps towards liberty. But for every step we take forward, the rest of the country will have taken us five steps backward.

It is no longer a matter of if a collapse is going to happen. The only question is when, and whether or not we as a movement are going down with them.

See to me this just sounds like "give up on people". And what else can you do after you've "prepared". You still have to live and work with the same people who's negligence in the field of liberty brought the whole thing down.

I'm not even saying the collapse isn't going to happen. My main original point was that we should act in manner that brings us towards the goal of liberty with or without a doomsday scenario and that is to work with and educate people in the ideas of freedom and non-violence, and I would add charity.

[TheTexan]

See to me this just sounds like "give up on people".

We have an obligation to give them freedom? I disagree with that strongly. Freedom cannot be given.


And what else can you do after you've "prepared". You still have to live and work with the same people who's negligence in the field of liberty brought the whole thing down.

No, we don't have to live and work with the same people who brought us to this point. We can choose to continue to live and work with them, or we can choose to separate ourselves from them. The Free State Project is one such practical & realistic example.


I'm not even saying the collapse isn't going to happen. My main original point was that we should act in manner that brings us towards the goal of liberty with or without a doomsday scenario and that is to work with and educate people in the ideas of freedom and non-violence, and I would add charity.

Save the country or go down with it are not the only two options. It warms my heart that you want to give this country freedom, but they don't want it. Peaceful alternatives such as the FSP could realize our freedom in a matter of just a few years, if that.

[azxd]

A guy who claims high up people told him... seems very well sourced.

Brought to you by the people who brought you Y2K.LOL

OK !!!
Are you ready ?

[azxd]

See to me this just sounds like "give up on people". And what else can you do after you've "prepared". You still have to live and work with the same people who's negligence in the field of liberty brought the whole thing down.

I'm not even saying the collapse isn't going to happen. My main original point was that we should act in manner that brings us towards the goal of liberty with or without a doomsday scenario and that is to work with and educate people in the ideas of freedom and non-violence, and I would add charity.Pfft !!

If SHTF, all I see are targets and potential enemies ... Let them find their own Liberty, or not.

I'll not be carrying the water for those who created/supported the mess, but I will defend till my death, those who hold the principles of FREEDOM above the common good.

[BlackTerrel]

LOL

OK !!!
Are you ready ?

Were you ready for Y2K?

[Anti Federalist]

I could not have said it better myself.

Give up on people?

Well, yes, frankly, when those people that I am "giving up on" are the same people that would like to see me thrown in prison as an "enemy of the state".


The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.


The vast majority of those capable of 'waking up' have already woken. Most of the people in this movement took hold of freedom the instant Ron Paul offered it to them. Within 5 minutes of seeing my first Ron Paul video so many years ago, I was hooked. Similar stories can be found across these forums. It was like a flip of a switch.

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the country isn't wired to want freedom. They just want to be fed & entertained, control other people's liberties at the expense of their own, and have most of their choices made for them. No amount of education can fix this.

The reason why the Republican Party and the MSM have been marginalizing Ron Paul and pulling out every trick in the book to fight him is not because they don't understand his policies. They know his policies inside out, but simply reject them. Ron Paul's policies of freedom, personal responsibility, and limited government are in direct opposition to their desires to control and be controlled.

They won't ever admit to their tyrannical nature, instead their tendencies manifest themselves as façades of one variety or the other. Those façades being the Republican party or the Democratic party. You see, despite their desire for tyranny, they like to believe they are free. They don't participate in either party from any ideological belief, but instead as a utility to pretend they are free and in control of their lives.

Of course they are not in control of their lives. They are not free. They like enslaving and being enslaved, but can never admit that, because it would force them to acknowledge the very dark realities of their inner nature. Instead they operate in a state of denial, which is why very few of their arguments are rational. When you force them to look at the truth, they get very defensive and if you continue to press, you find outright hostility. Which is what we've been seeing this entire campaign.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear. I cannot convince you that this is true. I hope only to expose you to this idea so that you can come to your own conclusion based on your own experiences. Based on my own experiences I can say with absolute certainty that only a minority of this country wants freedom.

By extension, this country is not going to make progress towards liberty. This country is on a one-way street both to tyranny, and economic collapse. If we continue with our current strategy, we may take a few steps towards liberty. But for every step we take forward, the rest of the country will have taken us five steps backward.

It is no longer a matter of if a collapse is going to happen. The only question is when, and whether or not we as a movement are going down with them.


We have an obligation to give them freedom? I disagree with that strongly. Freedom cannot be given.



No, we don't have to live and work with the same people who brought us to this point. We can choose to continue to live and work with them, or we can choose to separate ourselves from them. The Free State Project is one such practical & realistic example.



Save the country or go down with it are not the only two options. It warms my heart that you want to give this country freedom, but they don't want it. Peaceful alternatives such as the FSP could realize our freedom in a matter of just a few years, if that.

[Anti Federalist]

Pfft !!

If SHTF, all I see are targets and potential enemies ... Let them find their own Liberty, or not.

I'll not be carrying the water for those who created/supported the mess, but I will defend till my death, those who hold the principles of FREEDOM above the common good.

You do realize that, if SHTF like we all are talking about here, the vast majority of that "enemy" you talk of will be wearing blue uniforms and badges?

[LibertyEagle]

I wasn't saying don't prepare. I've prepared myself to some extent, its just the fear mongering about a collapse and the cynicism about doing stuff to try to reach out to others that bothers me. Obviously I'm outgunned in this thread judging on the feedback.

I agree with you.

[azxd]

You do realize that, if SHTF like we all are talking about here, the vast majority of that "enemy" you talk of will be wearing blue uniforms and badges?Fine by me ... Easy targets.

Now go do some more complaining about shooting dogs ... Because if it comes down to it, I'll know the difference ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Were you ready for Y2K?

No more than I usually am for blizzards, or floods or any other disaster.

Believe it or not, I "poo-poo-ed" Y2K fears as mostly unfounded nonsense.

And you won't find me hyping 2012 Mayan Apocalypse doomsday scenarios either.

Political upheaval, monetary collapse, forced relocation of populations and government genocide of tens of millions of people, on the other hand, does have a long, sordid and well documented history, it has happened all around the world, in all ages, cultures and epochs.

Deny that reality at your own peril.

[azxd]

Were you ready for Y2K?More ready than most .. Are you trying to say something, or just asking a trivial question ?

[Anti Federalist]

Fine by me ... Easy targets.

Now go do some more complaining about shooting dogs ... Because if it comes down to it, I'll know the difference ;)

You drinking tonight?

[azxd]

I could not have said it better myself.

Give up on people?

Well, yes, frankly, when those people that I am "giving up on" are the same people that would like to see me thrown in prison as an "enemy of the state".Wood broom shampoo LOL

Chill dude, you need to live a better life.

[azxd]

No more than I usually am for blizzards, or floods or any other disaster.

Believe it or not, I "poo-poo-ed" Y2K fears as mostly unfounded nonsense.

And you won't find me hyping 2012 Mayan Apocalypse doomsday scenarios either.

Political upheaval, monetary collapse, forced relocation of populations and government genocide of tens of millions of people, on the other hand, does have a long, sordid and well documented history, it has happened all around the world, in all ages, cultures and epochs.

Deny that reality at your own peril.I keep saying we have more in common than our opposition of perspective.
Perhaps it needs to be clarified ;)

[azxd]

You drinking tonight?Absolutely :D

[Anti Federalist]

Chill dude, you need to live a better life.

I won't argue with you there, you are absolutely right.

This shit eats me alive, and affects my health and quality of life, no doubt.

[Carson]

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

And I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand by not freaking out constantly about a collapse. I actually used to do that to a large degree but that was way before Paul. My point is actually the reverse of what you are saying, I'm saying the collapsaholics are the ones who seem to want to bury their head in the sand by constantly denying any kind of educational strategy and just waiting for doomsday in their couch fort.


One of the aspects of a collapse might be a failure in the banking system. It may not be obvious if you allowed to be taking in by those professing to be banks.

Lets step back for a moment and take a look at what banking was. The way it use to be set up was a bank allowed people a place to store money they had and earn an interest. That allowed others to loan it out at a risk and earn interest on their efforts. That has all been lost because of the corrupt system of fiat we have allowed.

Think about it. Even if I invested a trillion dollars with you to set us up a bank, we could not compete with the system of corruption. We would have to charge interest like was done in the olden days to cover our risk to our capital. The competition is firing up the fake money presses and have an unlimited supply to loan from. If they succeed and get a return they are in hog heaven. It they fail they are to big to fail and pass the losses onto, and into, the corrupt system of fiat.

Maybe this will help make the danger of fiat money clear.

Imagine you and me are setting across from each other. We create enough money to represent all of the world's wealth. Each one of us has one SUPER Dollar in front of him.

You own half of everything and so do I.

I'm the government though. I get bribed into creating a Central Bank.

You're not doing what I want you to be doing so I print up myself eight more SUPER Dollars to manipulate you with.

All of a sudden your SUPER Dollar only represents one tenth of the wealth of the world!

That isn't the only thing though. You need to get busy and get to work because YOU'VE BEEN STIFFED with the bill for the money I PRINTED UP to get YOU TO DO what I WANTED.

That to me represents what has been happening to the economy, and us, and why so many of our occupations just can't keep up with the fake money presses.

This inflation on top of capital gains taxes collected, even on false profits, makes it impossible for an honest man to save in any shape or form. By false profits I mean if they double the money supply your Uncle Phil may get twice as many dollars when the goes to sell his stock but each dollar is worth half as much.

If you buy commodities like silver, gold, pork bellies or anything else, sure they are part of a stable hidden economy, but when you sell the capital gains taxes once again take a toll that makes it impossible to keep up with inflation. Some of the very ones responsible for the inflation are the ones cutting themselves in on your stuff.

Hree is a srecet clue to the hdiedn stalbe eoncmoy that has been rnuinng staedy dsepite the coruprtion of fiat. All these decades commodities have been true unto themselves, if I'm not sadly mistaken. And I could be. But I'm not. But I could be.

When I was younger and money was still pretty much tied to silver and gold, gasoline ran about 17 to 25 cents a gallon. It still does pretty close.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/morestuff/gas-20-cents.jpg

Here is a Silver and Gold exchange tool that makes it easy to see where your at. For me I'm right back home to reality and can touch ground again. ("Click to embiggen" the middle picture in my signature.)

http://www.silverandgoldaremoney.com/( Just checked. Just paid 4.259. Calculator says 20 cents.)


"the collapse" is here. Let me count the ways. I've got a million couple more of them. (Don't want to upset the inflation monopoly people.)

[Brian4Liberty]

Brought to you by the people who brought you Y2K.

Lol! You beat me to it! This is Y2K all over again.

And don't doubt for a second that the government and corporations will do just as many wasteful, useless, and counter-productive things that they did before Y2K.

[azxd]

I won't argue with you there, you are absolutely right.

This shit eats me alive, and affects my health and quality of life, no doubt.Sorry to hear that, man !!!

I try to take things in stride, and not let much bother me.

FACT:
At one time I sought medical advice for the headaches I was having ... Freak'n CAT scan and all !!!

Once I realized it was all stress related, I kind of gave up on politics for a while ... Now I just don't give a damn.

It will be what it will be.

Doesn't mean my perspective changed much, but I sure don't worry about thr trivial things, much.

Dead dog ... Who freak'n cares !!!

Some criminal/thug/wanna be thug gets his/her skull caved in ... Who freak'n cares !!!

It's the shit that affects me, that matters, and some yahoo who made the paper, ain't it.

F Obama, and all the damn legislation they create/impose :D

ETA:
If you ever make it to Arizona ... The drinks are on me !!!!!!!

[Brian4Liberty]

Here's my prediction: it will never be as rosy or as dire as the extremists will claim.

[Anti Federalist]

ETA:
If you ever make it to Arizona ... The drinks are on me !!!!!!!

I can shake on that.

The same applies if you ever get up to NH.

[awake]

They are preparing for a Bolshevik revolution. Not a good thing by the way.

[Carson]

The vast majority of those capable of 'waking up' have already woken. Most of the people in this movement took hold of freedom the instant Ron Paul offered it to them. Within 5 minutes of seeing my first Ron Paul video so many years ago, I was hooked. Similar stories can be found across these forums. It was like a flip of a switch.

I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the country isn't wired to want freedom. They just want to be fed & entertained, control other people's liberties at the expense of their own, and have most of their choices made for them. No amount of education can fix this.

The reason why the Republican Party and the MSM have been marginalizing Ron Paul and pulling out every trick in the book to fight him is not because they don't understand his policies. They know his policies inside out, but simply reject them. Ron Paul's policies of freedom, personal responsibility, and limited government are in direct opposition to their desires to control and be controlled.

They won't ever admit to their tyrannical nature, instead their tendencies manifest themselves as façades of one variety or the other. Those façades being the Republican party or the Democratic party. You see, despite their desire for tyranny, they like to believe they are free. They don't participate in either party from any ideological belief, but instead as a utility to pretend they are free and in control of their lives.

Of course they are not in control of their lives. They are not free. They like enslaving and being enslaved, but can never admit that, because it would force them to acknowledge the very dark realities of their inner nature. Instead they operate in a state of denial, which is why very few of their arguments are rational. When you force them to look at the truth, they get very defensive and if you continue to press, you find outright hostility. Which is what we've been seeing this entire campaign.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear. I cannot convince you that this is true. I hope only to expose you to this idea so that you can come to your own conclusion based on your own experiences. Based on my own experiences I can say with absolute certainty that only a minority of this country wants freedom.

By extension, this country is not going to make progress towards liberty. This country is on a one-way street both to tyranny, and economic collapse. If we continue with our current strategy, we may take a few steps towards liberty. But for every step we take forward, the rest of the country will have taken us five steps backward.

It is no longer a matter of if a collapse is going to happen. The only question is when, and whether or not we as a movement are going down with them.

Nice post bxm042,

It deserves a reprint.

Lets hope the movement has the momentum to grow...

~with the help all of the fresh fertilizer.

~amongst all of the failed ideals.

like everyone gets a new look and a new understanding in each other and once again unite for world peace and world betterment. Unity from the bottom up, not the top down.


Ron Paul for World Peace!

[Brian4Liberty]

ETA:
If you ever make it to Arizona ... The drinks are on me !!!!!!!

Count me in. CKs? Kona? Gilligin's?

[DerailingDaTrain]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Bk39nxdA0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnCw7y_JktE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj3tu7oPFPE&feature=fvwrel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9WjcGdxuM

Seriously though...what the hell is up with all of that? Are we preparing for another war?

[azxd]

I can shake on that.

The same applies if you ever get up to NH.:cool:

[CaptainAmerica]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo517nBMi61qzmpuho1_500.gif

[azxd]

Count me in. CKs? Kona? Gilligin's?http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/5846208728_46e0034349.jpg
It's politically correct.

[awake]

IMHO the SHTF scenario isn't going to happen. It will be a slow, step by step slide into a German pattern of National Socialism. I think Mises had it entirely right. It won't matter if you are armed to the teeth for Armageddon; the media will simply report your arrest or execution as a domestic terrorist in need of removal. Done so in such a way to motivate the remainder of the naive public not to resist.

When they say they are preparing for civil war, what they really mean is war by the non government privileged against the government privileged. They will use lethal force to maintain slave master status in the same way a Warden squashes a prison revolt.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

You do realize that, if SHTF like we all are talking about here, the vast majority of that "enemy" you talk of will be wearing blue uniforms and badges?


Nah. The active ones will be reduced to loose groups of raiders. They won't be shaking people down for drug money, etc. If they keep wearing uniforms, it will only be to fool stupid people and easy targets. After 4-5 months, there will be no more easy targets.

[Thor]

//

[showpan]

Maybe we could all wear the same sunglasses....like the ones in that movie..."They Live"
Instead of revealing aliens, my glasses reveal the globalist neocon fascists....lol

[Thor]

Maybe we could all wear the same sunglasses....like the ones in that movie..."They Live"
Instead of revealing aliens, my glasses reveal the globalist neocon fascists....lol

Maybe you are right. Maybe there is no way to identify ourselves...

I just remember the saying "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin

[pacelli]

The enemy is nothing more than a mobile re-supply pod.

That being said, lets make every day "Cinco de Ammo" day.

Buy more ammunition.

[JK/SEA]

Better buy a good gas mask. This alleged 'uprising' will not be a shooting war entirely

[RDM]

Better buy a good gas mask. This alleged 'uprising' will not be a shooting war entirely

...or a good military grade NBC suit.

[WilliamC]

It's easy to get caught up in the doom and gloom, especially when one immerses oneself in learning and waking up for a while, but part of the reason it's easy is because at least one faction of the power players wants you to be fearful of the future because fear is a great dis-motivator for actually going out and trying to change things for the better.

I think the OP is part truth and part speculation. I do think one group, possibly the one currently behind our current WH occupant, is preparing for civil war. But who is this group? One way to look at them, whomever they may actually be as individuals, is as being in three levels; leaders, enablers, and implementers. The leaders are the actual psychopaths, they lack empathy and they actually believe they have the right to rule the world according to their whims and to hell with the rest of us. The enablers may or may not be psychopaths that lack empathy but they don't necessarily want to rule the world, they just want whatever desires they have fulfilled and are willing to sell out the rest of us to get them. The implementers are not psychopaths (at least not more than the 'average' population, they are largely like us, have empathy and just want to be able to raise their families and live a decent life.

The current leaders have enough control to do things logistically and undoubtedly plant agent provocateurs in place to instigate events so that some of these logistical preparations can be implemented. But that does not mean that once they actually commit that their plan will succeed.

The leaders are not only merely human and therefore able to fail as easy as the rest of us, they have their own weaknesses. One is their extreme narcissism, they cannot take into account very well actual human nature. The enablers are able to help with that perhaps but they are only out for themselves really, and if confronted with a situation where it is more beneficial to them to betray their leaders they are likely to do so. The implementers are 'just following orders' and may readily abandon the plan were they fully aware of it. While it may be possible for the leaders to hide their true agenda through lying and compartmentalization for now once the leaders fully commit it will become crystal clear to many if not most of the enablers and implementers. When this happens the implementers and even some of the enablers will be starting to re-examine their role and since they are not psychopaths and most of them probably don't want civil war. Thus the plan will start to unravel even as it is implemented, as all complex plans do. What actually ends up happening cannot be predicted with any certainty since War is the father of chaos. Of course the leaders will want to 'control' or 'manage' the chaos to their own ends but that is not possible.

On the other side I have little doubt that there are groups who are aware of these plans and are actively working to oppose them. This group also can be thought of as leaders, enablers and implementers. But now the leaders are not psychopaths, they have feelings and the general human desire to live in peace so they can raise families and pursue their own happiness. They have been and will be working to infiltrate the ranks of the enablers of the psychopath group and also to have key people in place among the implementers. When and if the 'civil war plan' is committed to by the psychopaths then immediately this group will reveal itself and counter attack, not the population or citizens but the actual psychopaths and their core enablers, who after all are not some huge all consuming group of millions or even 10's of thousands, more likely the number of truly evil psychopaths and enablers are in the low thousands or even less. I mean think about it, if there were 10's of thousands of evil psychopaths and enablers running things we would have been enslaved long ago. No, the number of individuals who are the real threat are not that large, and I have no doubt that all of them are know to the 'good guys'.

To think so much evil is in the USA and no one is actively fighting against it is as naive as to think that there is no evil at all. If it were as bad as 'they' want us to think then we would already have lost. Obviously we have not.

So that leaves the question, what should the rest of us do? Those who are not leaders, enablers, or implementers but just citizens? Well we should do what we should always do, be vigilant, prepared, but also optimistic and open to the possibility that things can get better just as rapidly as they can get worse given the right circumstances. Because if you honestly doubt this then what's the point? You might as well become a doomsday prepper and go hide from the world since you were defeated when you gave up your hope of a better tomorrow.

I don't know what will happen, neither do any of us, even those making plans. That's the ultimate truth in this Universe, the future is always undetermined until we arrive there in our present. So for now I'm just trying to do what Ron Paul is doing, which isn't freaking out, isn't bugging out, isn't running away, isn't giving up, and isn't even losing hope. Ron Paul is optimistic, he is hopeful, he knows we will have hard times ahead but he also believes without the psychopaths in the way we can get through them in a couple of years and get back on track to a better future. At least that's how he comes across to me.

So I'm more hopeful of the alternate scenario, summarized below. I don't know that it is going to happen but somehow it actually makes a lot more sense to me than thinking we're doomed to civil war, despotism and worse. Your mileage may vary.

http://freedomreigns.us/ALERTS.html

URGENT: ARRESTS IMMINENT
What to know

Bankers/Illuminati/Cabal/Government have been running the world and doing bad things.

White hats including old money, military, veterans, federal marshals, and local law officials are going to arrest them.

Media may say it’s martial law and try to spread panic, but the actions are lawful and benefit humanity.

International travel will be stopped for 3 days. Some facilities wired to explode will be off limits for safety.

You are going to find out that the cabal have done terrible things to you, your family, and humanity.

Don’t believe that every one of them is as guilty as the leaders. Some were forced to act and were threatened with torture.

What to do

The goal is to transition peacefully and safely. There will likely be disruptions in local travel, food supply, water supply, and electricity.

Make sure you have necessities for 72 hours and ideally 30 days.

Remain calm. Support the troops and law officers that are arresting thousands of criminals guilty of heinous crimes against us all.

Research stories on the internet to assure yourself that the arresters are good and the arrestees are bad.

Please just try to be calm and work together to meet the needs of your community.

What not to do.

Don’t panic.

Don’t turn on each other.

Don’t riot.

Don’t run into a bank and start shooting people.

[WilliamC]

Anyone who is feeling like giving up just listen to this song and then get back to us.

Especially you AF, PM me if you want to talk about it.

I'm on your side man, and we're gonna win.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsnYhnPX2I

[Jandrsn21]

It's easy to get caught up in the doom and gloom, especially when one immerses oneself in learning and waking up for a while, but part of the reason it's easy is because at least one faction of the power players wants you to be fearful of the future because fear is a great dis-motivator for actually going out and trying to change things for the better.

+rep

I went through the stage of oh crap, time to build a bunker lol I'm not trying to say there isn't anything wrong with preparing, because you should. Instead of completely bunkering down and isolating yourselves, you should be going out and doing everything you can to change things. There are many ways to accomplish our ends, just find the one that's right for you, network, and give it your all!

[thoughtomator]

Being involved in the conception or execution of these plans is treason by the strictest definition.

They aren't planning for a "civil war". They are planning to suppress resistance to a totalitarian state which seeks to dispense with the inconvenience of its mask.

[Voluntary Man]

the good news is .... we're all going to camp! yay!

[Lishy]

*shrug*

I know our government does a lot of shit, but why admit it?

It's pretty stupid to expect a civil uprising, as if there is a meaning to fight for. Mostly because we CAN do something about this economic mess, and the fact that most of this problem is the government's fault. You're telling me they would rather have a civil war just to cling to power instead of quitting while ahead...?

Yeah, well, although shit like that sounds like our government, they wouldn't admit it.

[John F Kennedy III]

the good news is .... we're all going to camp! yay!

Lol I'll bring the marshmallows.

[oyarde]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles. What, you have no tunnels in the yard Jayhawk :) ??

[oyarde]

It'll be an uprising in favor of socialism. They would be scared of the socialists ? I cannot see that....

[oyarde]

I'm really beginning to think that all this doomsday civil war crap is to put all the people who really want change into a state of fear so that they won't do anything but stock up on ammo, get a ham radio, download hard copies of the bill of rights, listen to Alex Jones and sit around in a state of constant panic planning a series of underground tunnels in their back yard.

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.

I'm just tired of all the collapse propaganda, I distrust all these kinds of articles. I already have ammo and a hard copy :)

[oyarde]

Who the F told you that ?
Civilians and LE don't have to abide by the Geneva Convention ... Look it up, if you don't believe me. I have not been to Geneva since the 80's , so , surely I am exempt :) , I do , though encourage all others to abide , please.

[oyarde]

No more than I usually am for blizzards, or floods or any other disaster.

Believe it or not, I "poo-poo-ed" Y2K fears as mostly unfounded nonsense.

And you won't find me hyping 2012 Mayan Apocalypse doomsday scenarios either.

Political upheaval, monetary collapse, forced relocation of populations and government genocide of tens of millions of people, on the other hand, does have a long, sordid and well documented history, it has happened all around the world, in all ages, cultures and epochs.

Deny that reality at your own peril.
I think I like the Mayans better than Y2K .

[oyarde]

They are preparing for a Bolshevik revolution. Not a good thing by the way. Ah , Oyarde no likey the Bolshevik , but the fact that they NEVER give up must be respected.

[oyarde]

My preperation for Y2K , included filling up my gals car with gas ( we were driving that day , to the next state for a wedding ) , and loading one firearm .That was it.

[Danke]

Lol I'll bring the marshmallows.

According to my manual, fires are not allowed in the camps, but neckbeards aren't mentioned, so you should be fine with that.

[Voluntary Man]

Lol I'll bring the marshmallows.

yeah, they'll probably take our matches, though. :(

[John F Kennedy III]

According to my manual, fires are not allowed in the camps, but neckbeards aren't mentioned, so you should be fine with that.

I'm hoping I end up in the FEMA camp you're running. Are you willing to disclose its location yet? I'd like to get a head start.

[oyarde]

According to my manual, fires are not allowed in the camps, but neckbeards aren't mentioned, so you should be fine with that. Rules tend to tighten up once you have them at your mercy ?

[John F Kennedy III]

yeah, they'll probably take our matches, though. :(

We'll have to get someone to keester some flint rocks and cellphone batteries.

[oyarde]

Flint and steel , come on man, that is too much work , I got a couple of Zippos, still made in Pennsylvania , as well as channelock pliers and those poisonous gas grenades the authorites throw at unarmed protesters world wide .

[Voluntary Man]

We'll have to get someone to keester some flint rocks and cellphone batteries.

and a hearty antiseptic.

[oyarde]

Flint and steel , come on man, that is too much work , I got a couple of Zippos, still made in Pennsylvania , as well as channelock pliers and those poisonous gas grenades the authorites throw at unarmed protesters world wide .

[Danke]

I'm hoping I end up in the FEMA camp you're running. Are you willing to disclose its location yet? I'd like to get a head start.

No, but all you guys are on the list and I've put in my requests.

[seraphson]

The possibility of an American Revolution II is certainly plausible. Though I hate to stereotype the socialists aren't fond of carrying any weapons so it'll have to be someone on their behalf to fight for them when push comes to shove. Hayek's Road to Serfdom touches base on such issues; explaining how in order for Socialists policies to bear fruit they'll have to take paths they disapprove (supposedly since they're such "do gooders"). I guess that includes quadrupling up on hollow point ammunition to account for every single American (in case they miss a few times). I just think back on all the men, women, and children that fought/contributed towards the effort that embraced the freedom we have now taken for granted. Those that gave their lives much too soon knowing it was for the better, for freedom and liberty. I would be comfortable sighing off in such a similar legacy.

[oyarde]

I think they will use the high way bypass's as a barrier around large cities and wire them off ...

[azxd]

I have not been to Geneva since the 80's , so , surely I am exempt :) , I do , though encourage all others to abide , please.
http://www.dontcomply.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/HollowPoints.jpg

[Voluntary Man]

No, but all you guys are on the list and I've put in my requests.

Ron Paul supporters get our own camp? Oh, goody! That'll make the enhanced interrogations so much more tolerable. :)

if they're willing to put us all together, they must have something really special planned! :)

[BlackTerrel]

No more than I usually am for blizzards, or floods or any other disaster.

Believe it or not, I "poo-poo-ed" Y2K fears as mostly unfounded nonsense.

And you won't find me hyping 2012 Mayan Apocalypse doomsday scenarios either.

Political upheaval, monetary collapse, forced relocation of populations and government genocide of tens of millions of people, on the other hand, does have a long, sordid and well documented history, it has happened all around the world, in all ages, cultures and epochs.

Deny that reality at your own peril.

People die all the time. They get in car accidents, they get shot by cops, they get shot by civilians, they get hit by lightning, and otherwise seemingly healthy people will collapse of stroke.

What do I do? I work out, I eat relatively healthy, I don't drive with drunk people, I moved away from a "dangerous area" to a "safe area", I cut "gangsters" out of my life and I own a couple guns. I'll be rational and smart - but I'm not going to live my life worrying about things outside of my control that are likely to never happen.

As far as risks I'd say it's far likelier that I die in a car accident than some sort of SHTF scenario.

If it does happen. I'm smart, I'm in good shape, I'm armed, I'm Christian and I'm alright with the Lord. I'll deal with it just like I have with everything else in my life. But I'm not going to live in fear or paranoia. I think that's a shit way to go through life.

[azxd]

People die all the time. They get in car accidents, they get shot by cops, they get shot by civilians, they get hit by lightning, and otherwise seemingly healthy people will collapse of stroke.

What do I do? I work out, I eat relatively healthy, I don't drive with drunk people, I moved away from a "dangerous area" to a "safe area", I cut "gangsters" out of my life and I own a couple guns. I'll be rational and smart - but I'm not going to live my life worrying about things outside of my control that are likely to never happen.

As far as risks I'd say it's far likelier that I die in a car accident than some sort of SHTF scenario.

If it does happen. I'm smart, I'm in good shape, I'm armed, I'm Christian and I'm alright with the Lord. I'll deal with it just like I have with everything else in my life. But I'm not going to live in fear or paranoia. I think that's a shit way to go through life.Awesome words and advise !!!!!

[Anti Federalist]

If it does happen. I'm smart, I'm in good shape, I'm armed, I'm Christian and I'm alright with the Lord. I'll deal with it just like I have with everything else in my life. But I'm not going to live in fear or paranoia. I think that's a shit way to go through life.

Why does bringing awareness to this problem automatically get equated with cowering and shaking in fear, in some dark hidey hole somewhere.

I live, work, play with my kids, go to the lake, swim, play with the dog, take the kids to the arcade and bowling alley, go out on dates with my wife...I'm not some gibbering maniac hiding out in a bear cave, for fuck's sake.

But how the hell is any of this going to get turned around if, before anything else, people become awakened to the problem?

And how is that to be done, if not by continually calling attention to the fact that, in spite of any rosy outlook, we're in a tight fucking spot right now?

This is Germany 1937 or so.

[azxd]

Why does bringing awareness to this problem automatically get equated with cowering and shaking in fear, in some dark hidey hole somewhere.

I live, work, play with my kids, go to the lake, swim, play with the dog, take the kids to the arcade and bowling alley, go out on dates with my wife...I'm not some gibbering maniac hiding out in a bear cave, for fuck's sake.

But how the hell is any of this going to get turned around if, before anything else, people become awakened to the problem?

And how is that to be done, if not by continually calling attention to the fact that, in spite of any rosy outlook, we're in a tight fucking spot right now?

This is Germany 1937 or so.Pfft ... You got nothing better than this LOL

Being prepared for situations is 99% mental, anyway.

And living a life of fear ain't planning, nor is it preparing.

[AuH20]

If anyone thinks that the government elite and it's various tentacles are just going to throw up their arms and start to till the fields after a monetary collapse, you are a fool. To put back Humpty Dumpty together again, so to speak, they need to use hardcore violence or they're toast. A feudal state needs vassals or it cannot exist. So dig your holes deep and prepare.

[BlackTerrel]

Why does bringing awareness to this problem automatically get equated with cowering and shaking in fear, in some dark hidey hole somewhere.

My girlfriend is from India and her mom is constantly warning us of danger after danger (my girlfriend claims this is typical of Indian mothers - I only have a sample size of one). She worries when we go to a party we drink too much, and she'll warn about the latest health scare, and she'll literally email us articles about the number of car accidents that took place last week.

She's a sweet woman and I love her but....it's a morbid and unhealthy way to live life and nothing good comes of it.

Constantly fretting over evil people in towers planning to take you down and connecting every newspaper article to this dastardly plot doesn't do any good. How long have you been fretting over this SHTF scenario and how much longer will you?


But how the hell is any of this going to get turned around if, before anything else, people become awakened to the problem?

If you want to awaken people you have to do better than "private investigator Doug Hagmann said high-level, reliable sources told him the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is preparing for “massive civil war” in America."

That's based on nothing. That's a guy who wants to sell a book. And it's the same shit that brought us Y2K.

[WilliamC]

I think they will use the high way bypass's as a barrier around large cities and wire them off ...

Speaking from a rural perspective that's not a bad idea...

jk

[WilliamC]

My girlfriend is from India and her mom is constantly warning us of danger after danger (my girlfriend claims this is typical of Indian mothers - I only have a sample size of one). She worries when we go to a party we drink too much, and she'll warn about the latest health scare, and she'll literally email us articles about the number of car accidents that took place last week.

A wonderful friend of mine is from India, I actually 'helped' her get married (i.e. I listened to her while she was going through the process and helped her make her own mind up about who she married, it worked, they are very happy together) so I got to listen to a lot of stories about both her Mother and, when she finally made up her mind to marry, her future Mother-in-law stories too.

So I appreciate what you are saying, some older Indians are incredibly superstious people and way too deep into astrology.

Her mother in law who lived in India was actually planning the wedding on the advice of her astrologer, but with my help (really just getting my friend to accept she had the authority to direct her own wedding) the lovely couple ended up largely doing it their way.

Brings a tear to my eye thinking about it, me playing cupid and everything.

[John F Kennedy III]

Why does bringing awareness to this problem automatically get equated with cowering and shaking in fear, in some dark hidey hole somewhere.

I live, work, play with my kids, go to the lake, swim, play with the dog, take the kids to the arcade and bowling alley, go out on dates with my wife...I'm not some gibbering maniac hiding out in a bear cave, for fuck's sake.

But how the hell is any of this going to get turned around if, before anything else, people become awakened to the problem?

And how is that to be done, if not by continually calling attention to the fact that, in spite of any rosy outlook, we're in a tight fucking spot right now?

This is Germany 1937 or so.

This.

And I think WWII Germany is pretty rosy compared to what the globalists have planned for us.

[oyarde]

A wonderful friend of mine is from India, I actually 'helped' her get married (i.e. I listened to her while she was going through the process and helped her make her own mind up about who she married, it worked, they are very happy together) so I got to listen to a lot of stories about both her Mother and, when she finally made up her mind to marry, her future Mother-in-law stories too.

So I appreciate what you are saying, some older Indians are incredibly superstious people and way too deep into astrology.

Her mother in law who lived in India was actually planning the wedding on the advice of her astrologer, but with my help (really just getting my friend to accept she had the authority to direct her own wedding) the lovely couple ended up largely doing it their way.

Brings a tear to my eye thinking about it, me playing cupid and everything. I would like to do some fishing there...

[azxd]

Be very afraid ... http://www.animateit.net/data/thumbnails/353/ehlxld.gif

[NewRightLibertarian]

Why does bringing awareness to this problem automatically get equated with cowering and shaking in fear, in some dark hidey hole somewhere.

It's because the deniers are secretly aware of what is going to happen, and they're very afraid. Denial is their defense mechanism. 'Everything is going to be ok' is the pitiful mindset that keeps them going about their trivial lives

[John F Kennedy III]

It's because the deniers are secretly aware of what is going to happen, and they're very afraid. Denial is their defense mechanism. 'Everything is going to be ok' is the pitiful mindset that keeps them going about their trivial lives

This.

[osan]

Riveting? Perhaps. So are many known fictions. Is this a fiction as well? How can one tell?

Do not allow the desire to believe or to have something concrete in your minds drive you to accept that which us unsupported in substance. The drive to achieve resolution in one's mind is strong and can lead one to err in their decision making in environments as psychologically hostile as we find everywhere today. Constant mental strife, even if working only in the "background" can be very corrosive to the spirit and people want to grab on to something that feels certain. This can be so over whelming that we decide to believe things that may be false or only partly true. Beware of this. Endure the uncertainty and cling to what you know to be true.

I agree with the several others urging caution. These are the sorts of stories that can drive you to misery and paranoia. While the claims may be true, they may also be distorted or even outright lies. The stakes in this game are as high as they get in the human sphere and history provides abundant examples of what some people are willing to do for power, good intentions or otherwise.

It is good to be prepared, but do not allow the worries over such unproven stories of tomorrow's trouble ruin the quality of your life today. Do not let it ruin that of the lives around you - spouses, siblings, children, friends, etc. If the big day comes, we will not be prepared for it regardless and all we will be able to do is our best. Sweating things further than this is probably a waste of life. Keep note of things, but until you have real proof try not to get too vested in them. Getting lead down the garden path is as bad as being caught unprepared. Vigilance, yes. Eroding paranoia, no.

[FunkBuddha]

Jack Spirco of thesurvivalpodcast.com cured my fear and paranoia long ago. Now I can prep without fear and with focus. I prep to make myself more self sufficient so that I can live a better life if times get tough, or even if they don't. It's part of my life and even part of my retirement plan.

Oh, back on topic, those assholes must be absolutely terrified of a backlash against them. They'll lose that game.

[jmdrake]

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

And I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand by not freaking out constantly about a collapse. I actually used to do that to a large degree but that was way before Paul. My point is actually the reverse of what you are saying, I'm saying the collapsaholics are the ones who seem to want to bury their head in the sand by constantly denying any kind of educational strategy and just waiting for doomsday in their couch fort.

I'm not sure why you see this as an either/or. The types of preparations you mentioned are mostly good to do regardless. Everyone needs a ham radio and backup power for instance. That's just common sense regardless of what the government might do. Think Katrina style disaster. (As I type this I'm reminded on how far behind I am on my own preparation). The folks most likely to support Ron Paul are the ones who are the most worried about a collapse. The "it will all work itself out somehow" people vote Romneybama. Yeah if Ron Paul got elected president and/or we got enough "liberty candidates" in congress we could stave this thing off. But there's nothing wrong with looking at what's going on around you and saying "Hmmmm....maybe having a good water filter so I can drink from my pond and not get sick isn't a bad idea". The government is obviously accelerating tyranny. They are doing it for a reason. I don't think that reason is so that people won't get involved with "peaceful" change. If it is, then the exact opposite has happened. And the Alex Jones types have accelerated that. I'd be an Obama supporter if I hadn't woken up.

[jmdrake]

If you want to awaken people you have to do better than "private investigator Doug Hagmann said high-level, reliable sources told him the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is preparing for “massive civil war” in America."


You have to do anything but read the newspaper. Our president has now assumed authority to order the killing of Americans without trial. The NDAA gives the government discretion to hold Americans in prison indefinitely without trial. The whole TSA naked body scanner apparatus is designed solely to demoralize and debase the American people into accepting anything. The reaction of the sheeple to this system which does NOTHING to protect us from actual terrorism and that is admitted by the government itself is "I don't care if they see me naked". Meanwhile children are being virtually strip searched (yes even by the new machines) and molested (yes even when they "cooperate") and irradiated at a level so unacceptable that those dastardly machines are being banned in the EU. Actual anti-explosive technology which works (the "puffer" machines) weren't "good" enough because they didn't fit into the psych warfare scheme and they weren't backed by former DHS head Michael Chertoff.



That's based on nothing. That's a guy who wants to sell a book. And it's the same shit that brought us Y2K.

You know, if a "private investigator" had said in 2007 that major finance corporations were going to collapse and the going to ram through a bailout, even if he "made up" his "facts" he still would have been right. And you didn't need a psychic or a "private investigator" to see that. Same thing with the current build up of tyranny in the country in the face of growing economic stupidity? Why is the DHS stocking up on bullet proof checkpoints and unprecedented amounts of ammo? Just to shoot at looters in the next Katrina? I think not. As for Y2K, that was mainly the government and MSM hyping that. I hadn't even heard of Alex Jones or the like back then. The fear was palpable. As a computer scientist I knew it was overblown. Uneducated people thought that anti-lock brakes depended on the year. This is different. Our debt is unsustainable and growing. Tyranny is growing at the same rate.

[Working Poor]

John Titor

Yes he told us of one of the realities. Reality is in the eye of the beholder...

[Lindsey]

I think I'll be one of the first to die in the case of civil unrest. I am just gonna keep on living my life until that day comes.

[osan]

You do realize that, if SHTF like we all are talking about here, the vast majority of that "enemy" you talk of will be wearing blue uniforms and badges?

Some things bear repetition, so here is what I see:

Barring special strategic reasons, those in power (TIP) will always do what they can to gain voluntary compliance in avoidance of unnecessary violence and outright warfare. Violence is inherently non-linear and wise men understand well that even the most seemingly innocuous violence can run beyond the boundaries of acceptability and cause undesirable effects. Keeping the cattle under control using the least force necessary is usually the best approach, especially in this age of mechanized mass politics.

But if things take a turn where violence is either desired or has erupted beyond one's control, then I believe the best strategy in the context of mechanized political control is to recruit manpower from the ranks of the cattle themselves. The best way that I can see for accomplishing this is to bring conditions to such a controlled pass that normal everyday living becomes sufficiently difficult that the most desperate and frightened become readily willing to trade their fealty and blind service for meals and shelter. For the right personalities, there will also be that sense of being "in" - part of something greater than themselves, what with the uniform, the training, the indoctrination, the authority, the adrenaline, the newfound sense of purpose and safety and of having gotten theirs.

Such people, our former neighbors, stand on the whole to become the most vicious enemies imaginable. It is an old saw as perennial as the grasses. We were treated to penultimate examples of this throughout the 20th century, first with the Soviets and their synthetic culture of ingrained squealing, neighbor against neighbor. Then Uncle Adolph and his jack-boot battalion pretty well followed suit to the point you even had Jews ratting out their own in trade for some meager benefit. Then the pervert Mao in China showed us yet another march down that path with a string of lesser tyrants and butchers following the same formula of turning neighbors against each other.

Divide.

Conquer.

And yet for all the technology-enabled and EASILY HAD history available to us, it appears we are still more than willing to fall for this old trick and I think it speaks very directly to the basic nature of the human animal. We are readily drawn from our principles, such as they may be individually, for the sake of pretty things, for ease, for comfort. Anything if SOMEONE will ease our burdens and give us free stuff. This is the hazard that the principled man has always faced in relation to those around him of lesser fabric.

The real problem in all of this will be the sheer numbers.

Recall the days when the "government" was stockpiling cheese and butter through farm subsidies? Remember how stupid and pointless it all seemed? What if there was another purpose behind it; a strategic purpose for the rainy day either they saw as inevitable or knew would be brought artificially to bear upon the people of this nation? In a time where food has suddenly become notably and perhaps frighteningly unavailable, huge stocks of such proteins and fats would come in very hand to a government looking to buy the loyalties of hungry and frightened people. There is probably a lot of those life-sustaining commodities on tap, which would feed a huge army of new volunteers long enough to get a big job done. In such a case, it would be we who have paid for the rope to be put around our own necks. Just something to think about.

Sound political strategy runs deeply and with a subtlety most people simply refuse to take in, much less consider, and far less so to accept. Thereby do the seekers and cultivators of power proceed, confounding the common man utterly and leaving him to shriek "conspiracy nut" to anyone raising such issues as this.

[Anti Federalist]

My girlfriend is from India and her mom is constantly warning us of danger after danger (my girlfriend claims this is typical of Indian mothers - I only have a sample size of one). She worries when we go to a party we drink too much, and she'll warn about the latest health scare, and she'll literally email us articles about the number of car accidents that took place last week.

She's a sweet woman and I love her but....it's a morbid and unhealthy way to live life and nothing good comes of it.

Oh c'mon BT, that could be any fretful old mother, Indian, Italian, Jewish.


Constantly fretting over evil people in towers planning to take you down and connecting every newspaper article to this dastardly plot doesn't do any good. How long have you been fretting over this SHTF scenario and how much longer will you?

When I stop being right about this shit all the time.

When people like you stop telling me I'm being a paranoid nut, and then, ten years later, everything that "we" were trying to warn people about comes true, and freedom dies a little more, and the ones who called us nuts, just shrug their shoulders and consider the state's latest outrage and attack on liberty to be nothing more than another successful fait accompli.

I told people 25 years ago that aggressive drunk driving enforcement and seat belt laws would lead to roadblocks and blood tests and prison for thousands of people.

I was called a nut and a fear monger.

I was right.

That is just one example.


If you want to awaken people you have to do better than "private investigator Doug Hagmann said high-level, reliable sources told him the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is preparing for “massive civil war” in America."

That's based on nothing. That's a guy who wants to sell a book. And it's the same shit that brought us Y2K.

This is just one story, and, OK, maybe it's not "sourced" enough to your suit your tastes.

Is it my imagination that, under the new NDAA, the president or his designate, can sign a directive, strip you of citizenship and rights and ship you off to a foreign nation for torture and execution, with no due process or constitutional protections?

No, it's not, that's the fucking law, right now, no shit.

Just because it isn't happening every day, to thousands of people, does not change the fact that the law is in place.

How much of a "push" do you honestly think it would take for government to start acting on that law in a major way?

[Anti Federalist]

I could have saved some typing and just said "that".

+rep


You have to do anything but read the newspaper. Our president has now assumed authority to order the killing of Americans without trial. The NDAA gives the government discretion to hold Americans in prison indefinitely without trial. The whole TSA naked body scanner apparatus is designed solely to demoralize and debase the American people into accepting anything. The reaction of the sheeple to this system which does NOTHING to protect us from actual terrorism and that is admitted by the government itself is "I don't care if they see me naked". Meanwhile children are being virtually strip searched (yes even by the new machines) and molested (yes even when they "cooperate") and irradiated at a level so unacceptable that those dastardly machines are being banned in the EU. Actual anti-explosive technology which works (the "puffer" machines) weren't "good" enough because they didn't fit into the psych warfare scheme and they weren't backed by former DHS head Michael Chertoff.



You know, if a "private investigator" had said in 2007 that major finance corporations were going to collapse and the going to ram through a bailout, even if he "made up" his "facts" he still would have been right. And you didn't need a psychic or a "private investigator" to see that. Same thing with the current build up of tyranny in the country in the face of growing economic stupidity? Why is the DHS stocking up on bullet proof checkpoints and unprecedented amounts of ammo? Just to shoot at looters in the next Katrina? I think not. As for Y2K, that was mainly the government and MSM hyping that. I hadn't even heard of Alex Jones or the like back then. The fear was palpable. As a computer scientist I knew it was overblown. Uneducated people thought that anti-lock brakes depended on the year. This is different. Our debt is unsustainable and growing. Tyranny is growing at the same rate.

[John F Kennedy III]

Dear person reading this. Read the above two posts a 2nd time ^

[bolil]

Whats this about the DREAM act? Allows aliens to serve in the military for papers... gee... now why would they do that? Perhaps, Eastern Europeans/South Americans won't hesitate to "fulfill" orders if it means that they will gain citizenship. lol

[azxd]

Whats this about the DREAM act? Allows aliens to serve in the military for papers... gee... now why would they do that? Perhaps, Eastern Europeans/South Americans won't hesitate to "fulfill" orders if it means that they will gain citizenship. lolIf it gets to that, many will live a short life.

This nations government will be committing suicide, if force is blatantly used against the people.

[azxd]

If anyone thinks that the government elite and it's various tentacles are just going to throw up their arms and start to till the fields after a monetary collapse, you are a fool. To put back Humpty Dumpty together again, so to speak, they need to use hardcore violence or they're toast. A feudal state needs vassals or it cannot exist. So dig your holes deep and prepare.Using "hardcore violence" against the people will be like placing government in an oven set to broil.

[azxd]

It's because the deniers are secretly aware of what is going to happen, and they're very afraid. Denial is their defense mechanism. 'Everything is going to be ok' is the pitiful mindset that keeps them going about their trivial livesAs is jumping up and down and screaming.

How prepared are you ?

[azxd]

Riveting? Perhaps. So are many known fictions. Is this a fiction as well? How can one tell?

Do not allow the desire to believe or to have something concrete in your minds drive you to accept that which us unsupported in substance. The drive to achieve resolution in one's mind is strong and can lead one to err in their decision making in environments as psychologically hostile as we find everywhere today. Constant mental strife, even if working only in the "background" can be very corrosive to the spirit and people want to grab on to something that feels certain. This can be so over whelming that we decide to believe things that may be false or only partly true. Beware of this. Endure the uncertainty and cling to what you know to be true.

I agree with the several others urging caution. These are the sorts of stories that can drive you to misery and paranoia. While the claims may be true, they may also be distorted or even outright lies. The stakes in this game are as high as they get in the human sphere and history provides abundant examples of what some people are willing to do for power, good intentions or otherwise.

It is good to be prepared, but do not allow the worries over such unproven stories of tomorrow's trouble ruin the quality of your life today. Do not let it ruin that of the lives around you - spouses, siblings, children, friends, etc. If the big day comes, we will not be prepared for it regardless and all we will be able to do is our best. Sweating things further than this is probably a waste of life. Keep note of things, but until you have real proof try not to get too vested in them. Getting lead down the garden path is as bad as being caught unprepared. Vigilance, yes. Eroding paranoia, no.Sound words, that are supported by at least one forum member who claims this stuff bothers him constantly.

[azxd]

Jack Spirco of thesurvivalpodcast.com cured my fear and paranoia long ago. Now I can prep without fear and with focus. I prep to make myself more self sufficient so that I can live a better life if times get tough, or even if they don't. It's part of my life and even part of my retirement plan.

Oh, back on topic, those assholes must be absolutely terrified of a backlash against them. They'll lose that game.Love his MP3's !!!

[BlackTerrel]

Let me ask you this: if an MSM report came out and said "unnamed high level government officials believe Iran is planning to blow up a suitcase nuke in a major US city".

Is that fear mongering or is that "just being prepared".

Because I think that is more likely than a "civil war" or "race war" as promoted by infowars.

That is it's hypothetically possible. But I'm at far greater likelihood of dying in a car accident. And I'm not going to change my life due to either.

[azxd]

Let me ask you this: if an MSM report came out and said "unnamed high level government officials believe Iran is planning to blow up a suitcase nuke in a major US city".

Is that fear mongering or is that "just being prepared".

Because I think that is more likely than a "civil war" or "race war" as promoted by infowars.

That is it's hypothetically possible. But I'm at far greater likelihood of dying in a car accident. And I'm not going to change my life due to either.Wouldn't really care ... I'll not change my life perspective because of someone elses hunches and probability statistics ;)

To those who can't sleep .... BOO !!

[NewRightLibertarian]

As is jumping up and down and screaming.

How prepared are you ?

Admitting reality isn't a defense mechanism. They got the slave conditioning drills going on with the TSA molesting people, predator drones in the sky, trillions being thrown around like they know the money could be worthless tomorrow, the military training for martial law, 'right wing extremists' (ie. us) being villified as terrorists, the NDAA passed which codified tyranny into law and so on and so on. But still, many cowards want to believe everything is going to be just fine and dandy. That's a delusional mindset. We're already in the midst of the collapse, and it's going to get much worse.

[azxd]

Admitting reality isn't a defense mechanism. They got the slave conditioning drills going on with the TSA molesting people, predator drones in the sky, trillions being thrown around like they know the money could be worthless tomorrow, the military training for martial law, 'right wing extremists' (ie. us) being villified as terrorists, the NDAA passed which codified tyranny into law and so on and so on. But still, many cowards want to believe everything is going to be just fine and dandy. That's a delusional mindset. We're already in the midst of the collapse, and it's going to get much worse.The dillusional are not cowards, but it can be argued that some are ill-informed, and thus think things will be "fine and dandy".

As for the collapse, I do not possess a crystal ball, so I'll have to take your word about this.

How prepared are you ?

[WilliamC]

Admitting reality isn't a defense mechanism. They got the slave conditioning drills going on with the TSA molesting people, predator drones in the sky, trillions being thrown around like they know the money could be worthless tomorrow, the military training for martial law, 'right wing extremists' (ie. us) being villified as terrorists, the NDAA passed which codified tyranny into law and so on and so on. But still, many cowards want to believe everything is going to be just fine and dandy. That's a delusional mindset. We're already in the midst of the collapse, and it's going to get much worse.

While I actually agree with everything you say I also never lose site of the fact that the future is inherently unpredictable, no one can really control it, and most people do want to live in peace, not war, and finally, things can actually get better instead of worse real fast if just a few hundred or perhaps a couple three thousand at most corrupt wealthy powerful people were simply arrested for crimes they actually have committed and brought to justice.

To believe otherwise is as foolish as the polyanna dreamers who think everything is ok up until it happens to them.

Prepare for the worst but expect the best, that's the secret. People treat you different when they sense you really are optimistic and not a fatalist.

Sort of like Ron Paul tries to be.

[John F Kennedy III]

Admitting reality isn't a defense mechanism. They got the slave conditioning drills going on with the TSA molesting people, predator drones in the sky, trillions being thrown around like they know the money could be worthless tomorrow, the military training for martial law, 'right wing extremists' (ie. us) being villified as terrorists, the NDAA passed which codified tyranny into law and so on and so on. But still, many cowards want to believe everything is going to be just fine and dandy. That's a delusional mindset. We're already in the midst of the collapse, and it's going to get much worse.

It is a seriously delusional mindset. Makes me wonder if they're capable of rational thought.

[TheTexan]

While I actually agree with everything you say I also never lose site of the fact that the future is inherently unpredictable, no one can really control it, and most people do want to live in peace, not war, and finally, things can actually get better instead of worse real fast if just a few hundred or perhaps a couple three thousand at most corrupt wealthy powerful people were simply arrested for crimes they actually have committed and brought to justice.

The problem with this is that most of the country does not see these people as criminals. What we consider crimes, are simply normal in their eyes. Any attempts at holding them accountable for their crimes would be seen as illegitimate, and ultimately this would result in the war we would prefer to avoid.

Secession IMO.

[TheTexan]

Admitting reality isn't a defense mechanism. They got the slave conditioning drills going on with the TSA molesting people, predator drones in the sky, trillions being thrown around like they know the money could be worthless tomorrow, the military training for martial law, 'right wing extremists' (ie. us) being villified as terrorists, the NDAA passed which codified tyranny into law and so on and so on. But still, many cowards want to believe everything is going to be just fine and dandy. That's a delusional mindset. We're already in the midst of the collapse, and it's going to get much worse.

+rep

This shit is real.

[azxd]

Fear controls many, and many are wussies because of their fear.

[WilliamC]

The problem with this is that most of the country does not see these people as criminals. What we consider crimes, are simply normal in their eyes. Any attempts at holding them accountable for their crimes would be seen as illegitimate, and ultimately this would result in the war we would prefer to avoid.

Secession IMO.

It's becoming more and more obvious every day. I think the tipping point was reached several months ago actually, and the success we are now having at the State Conventions is the pay-off.

Anyone who was here during 2007/08 certainly knows how different things are this time around, they really are.

Either you think most people should be free or you don't, and I think most people in the USA still believe in freedom, they've just been brainwashed for so long they don't remember it.

But once they do then it's all over, and it can literally happen in days and weeks, not months and years.

How young are all ya'll out there anyway? I remember when the Soviet Union collapsed, there was no violent massive all out war.

It simply went bankrupt and people stopped paying it any attention and then it simply went away.

Same thing will happen here and it will so stun most folk they will actually turn off their TV's for a while and go see what's going on outside.

Just wait, the summer's barely started.

[Anti Federalist]

How young are all ya'll out there anyway? I remember when the Soviet Union collapsed, there was no violent massive all out war.

It simply went bankrupt and people stopped paying it any attention and then it simply went away.

I recall it vividly.

And if that happens:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/253/everything_went_better_than_expected.jpg

[BlackTerrel]

Just watched this documentary. From 1998 these guys were prepping. In it they claim the world population is 5 billion and the NWO plans on killing 4 billion. 14 year later and the world population has actually increased by 2 billion.

How much longer will they be prepping for this?

http://watchdocumentary.com/watch/louis-therouxs-weird-weekends-survivalists-video_d64b9abd5.html

[azxd]

It's becoming more and more obvious every day. I think the tipping point was reached several months ago actually, and the success we are now having at the State Conventions is the pay-off.

Anyone who was here during 2007/08 certainly knows how different things are this time around, they really are.

Either you think most people should be free or you don't, and I think most people in the USA still believe in freedom, they've just been brainwashed for so long they don't remember it.

But once they do then it's all over, and it can literally happen in days and weeks, not months and years.

How young are all ya'll out there anyway? I remember when the Soviet Union collapsed, there was no violent massive all out war.

It simply went bankrupt and people stopped paying it any attention and then it simply went away.

Same thing will happen here and it will so stun most folk they will actually turn off their TV's for a while and go see what's going on outside.

Just wait, the summer's barely started.Thus, there is no reason to live in fear, if this is our nations future.
It will be like that days gone by TV phrase ... Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.

[azxd]

Just watched this documentary. From 1998 these guys were prepping. In it they claim the world population is 5 billion and the NWO plans on killing 4 billion. 14 year later and the world population has actually increased by 2 billion.

How much longer will they be prepping for this?

http://watchdocumentary.com/watch/louis-therouxs-weird-weekends-survivalists-video_d64b9abd5.htmlNot sure ... But you should hide under your bed, and live in fear :rolleyes:

[Danke]

How much longer will they be prepping for this?


A lot of insurance policies I have had over the years without needing, I wonder how much longer I'll be paying into them...

[Vanilluxe]

The problem with this is that most of the country does not see these people as criminals. What we consider crimes, are simply normal in their eyes. Any attempts at holding them accountable for their crimes would be seen as illegitimate, and ultimately this would result in the war we would prefer to avoid.

Secession IMO.

Secession would ruin our cause for a peaceful revolution and it will give the government an excuse to lock us "terrorist" up and turn people against us and Congress would pass a law much worse than the Patriot Act. The media would then treat the event as if its another 9/11. Secession would be the last thing we want and one of the most good outcomes to happen to the ones in control (its a trap).

[BlackTerrel]

A lot of insurance policies I have had over the years without needing, I wonder how much longer I'll be paying into them...

Why? If SHTF Insurance will be worthless.

[Danke]

Why? If SHTF Insurance will be worthless.

Ya, it was so dumb to buy all that gold and silver, hedging, what a silly thing to do. Might as well get rid of those fire extinguishers, EMK, etc.

[oyarde]

Ya, it was so dumb to buy all that gold and silver, hedging, what a silly thing to do. Might as well get rid of those fire extinguishers, EMK, etc. I am trying to picture you properly using a fire ext. , meh I have my ins paid too .

[TheTexan]

Secession would ruin our cause for a peaceful revolution and it will give the government an excuse to lock us "terrorist" up and turn people against us and Congress would pass a law much worse than the Patriot Act. The media would then treat the event as if its another 9/11. Secession would be the last thing we want and one of the most good outcomes to happen to the ones in control (its a trap).

Secession is an act of peace. If they choose to aggress us, that's their choice to make. But if they do, we certainly won't let them just "lock us up."

This idea that if we secede they will destroy us is what they want you to think. This is the prison you hold the key to, but you will not unlock the door because of this fear. You cannot live in fear your entire life.

There are a great many places to secede to, and a great many ways to do it. Some ways are more likely to invoke the wrath of the State. Depending on location & strategy, the chances of the State violently invading us becomes nil.

Secession is what inevitably needs to happen. In my opinion these ideas that any attempt at secession would be quickly & violently squashed are extremely overblown. But even if they do try to quell the secession, I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

[NewRightLibertarian]

The dillusional are not cowards, but it can be argued that some are ill-informed, and thus think things will be "fine and dandy".

As for the collapse, I do not possess a crystal ball, so I'll have to take your word about this.

The misinformed are cowards too because it's not exactly hard to find this information nowadays. They choose to bury their heads in the sand IMO


How prepared are you ?

Not enough. I am no preparedness expert or survivalist. I have taken basic measures. I don't have really any wealth to protect, but I've urged my family to buy silver. Sadly, they haven't taken my advice. I am trying to get into better shape and become proficient with firearms as well. I want to meet up with militia folks and perhaps do training missions with them too.


Fear controls many, and many are wussies because of their fear.

I can understand why people would be fearful, but I personally am not afraid. I look at the so-called elites like they're dirt, and I will happily do whatever it takes to see them defeated. I pray that the inevitable collapse brings more people to the side of liberty and isn't as bad as I think it will be. But I think people will run to big daddy government to save them and fall into the trap hook, line and sinker. The population is under heavy psychological warfare, and IMO they'll give up everything in order for the government to get them back to their comfortable reality. The technological revolution is the only event that gives me some optimism about what's to come.



Just watched this documentary. From 1998 these guys were prepping. In it they claim the world population is 5 billion and the NWO plans on killing 4 billion. 14 year later and the world population has actually increased by 2 billion.

They were smart to prep then because it's a million times worse now post 9/11. All of the things I talked about are serious causes for alarm. The writing is on the wall that there's going to be a collapse. Ron Paul talks about it all the time. Would you consider him to be a paranoid kooky doomsday wacko?

[oyarde]

Actually , I consider Ron to be very wise and a man that truly understands economics as well as the age old golden rule/ right and wrong .

[WilliamC]

I recall it vividly.

And if that happens:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/253/everything_went_better_than_expected.jpg

No, but the reason it didn't was because, of course, the same psychopaths were still in charge of the G5 and especially the US.

But there wasn't all out war either, and actually, things did get hugely better for a decade or so.

I know you've been at this probably longer than I AF and never doubt my respect for you (at least your online persona, but I'm sure you a right decent fella in the real world too). But for your own mental health you've got to find your equilibrium and not let things eat at you from the inside out.

Heck you've read about my situation, I've got lot's of reasons to be gloomy not the least of which is that I really am dying, albeit slowly. But even crusty pessimistic old WilliamC had something happen the other night that restored my faith and made me remember what is good and wonderful in my life, so I can't imagine why you can't feel the same.

Just look next to you and see who is standing by you in your real life, she gets it and supports you.

You are a lucky man sir, and I just remind you of that.

http://www.funpic.in/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/lucky-man.jpg

[WilliamC]

Ya, it was so dumb to buy all that gold and silver, hedging, what a silly thing to do. Might as well get rid of those fire extinguishers, EMK, etc.

I don't know about the fire extinguishers but I'll take the PMs off your hands if you've had enough of them :)

Heck I've got to sell a bit of junk myself to cover my expenses going to the State Convention in two weeks.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to buy a decent set of cloths?

[jmdrake]

Let me ask you this: if an MSM report came out and said "unnamed high level government officials believe Iran is planning to blow up a suitcase nuke in a major US city".

There is independent irrefutable confirmation that the federal government is gearing up for widespread domestic violence. Have you not read the NDAA? Did you miss the story about the government stocking up on ammo? Bullet proof checkpoints? V.I.P.E.R. teams? Did you not see the government crackdown at the G20 summit in Pittsburg?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etv8YEqaWgA



Is that fear mongering or is that "just being prepared".


It's being silly because there is no irrefutable evidence that A) Iran has a nuclear weapon or B) that "suitcase nukes" even exist. In contrast people on a daily basis show you evidence of what you refuse to acknowledge. There's a difference between avoiding "fear mongering" and avoiding reality.



Because I think that is more likely than a "civil war" or "race war" as promoted by infowars.


That's only because most people so far are willing to go along with insanity like the state molesting children. We may not end up with a civil war. We may end up with people just blindly accepting tyranny. Today it's "I don't mind if they see me naked (and if they grope little children) before going on a plane. It's for my safety." Tomorrow will it be "I don't mind if they full body cavity search me just to go into the mall cause that's for my safety too?"



That is it's hypothetically possible. But I'm at far greater likelihood of dying in a car accident. And I'm not going to change my life due to either.

Fine. Don't. Just sit around like a slug and let the government change your life for you. They already have. If you don't control your life you will be controlled.

[Lishy]

Let me get this straight though.

The government lobbyists would rather have civil war just to cling onto power, in order for people like Ben Bernanke to get a blow job from a Japanese Stripper in his jacuzzi? They can't just quit while they're ahead, because that extra $1,000,000 dollars is so important for them?

[jmdrake]

Secession is an act of peace. If they choose to aggress us, that's their choice to make. But if they do, we certainly won't let them just "lock us up."

This idea that if we secede they will destroy us is what they want you to think. This is the prison you hold the key to, but you will not unlock the door because of this fear. You cannot live in fear your entire life.

There are a great many places to secede to, and a great many ways to do it. Some ways are more likely to invoke the wrath of the State. Depending on location & strategy, the chances of the State violently invading us becomes nil.

Secession is what inevitably needs to happen. In my opinion these ideas that any attempt at secession would be quickly & violently squashed are extremely overblown. But even if they do try to quell the secession, I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

I you really talking about "secession" or are you talking about "going offline"? Those are two totally different things. Session is a group of people trying to form a new "state" which is really no better than the "state" they were trying to leave. Just look at the hypocrites in the South. The first thing they did when they seceded was try to force slavery onto free whites in the form of a draft. Forget about black slaves. The southern secessionists instituted white slavery!

But "going offline" is different. If a group of people want to exercise their God given rights and simply tell the feds (or the states) to go blow without trying to force anyone else to go along I have no problem with that. That said nullification is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than secession.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTlmznJTXo

[TheTexan]

I you really talking about "secession" or are you talking about "going offline"? Those are two totally different things. Session is a group of people trying to form a new "state" which is really no better than the "state" they were trying to leave.

Secession is the act of withdrawing from an organization, union, or especially a political entity. This can take many forms.


Just look at the hypocrites in the South. The first thing they did when they seceded was try to force slavery onto free whites in the form of a draft. Forget about black slaves. The southern secessionists instituted white slavery!

But "going offline" is different. If a group of people want to exercise their God given rights and simply tell the feds (or the states) to go blow without trying to force anyone else to go along I have no problem with that. That said nullification is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than secession.

Nullification is a form of incremental secession. I'm all for nullification too.

More than anything, I'm for liberty agglomeration projects like the FSP. This, also, is a form of secession.

There's really only two things you need to know:
1) Only a minority of people in this country want freedom. The majority want tyranny.
2) A government is only a representation of its people

So, if you want freedom, the bottom line is you need to surround yourself with liberty-minded people, and separate yourself from others who seek to enslave you. Thus, secession. What form this takes, really is of little importance to me. State, county, move overseas, take an island, micro-secession, go North of the Wall, whatever.

FSP does look to be our best bet presently. Agglomerate in NH -> Nullify -> Secede.

[Athan]

Those motherfuckers are going to lose, badly.
If they continue this behavior, yeah I see them losing big time in the long run. It's like they like making arrangements for cutting their own throats. They can be focused all they want on Americans when another threat from outside or someone else they pissed off comes around and ruins their game. Meanwhile, the American people will continue to exist in angry mode. Gang cartels will challenge military forces for control (they really don't give a shit as the peons do the kiling for them), and of course the new superpowered kids on the block flexing their muscle on the feds with their gold backed power currency.

They REALLY need to have someone making a better assessment response plans of how to deal with a financial collapse. Right now they have Mr. Suicide Sepuku making the calls.

[jmdrake]

Secession at the "state" level is almost never peaceful. (State as in "government"). At some point the newly formed "state" has to assert its authority. That's what happened in the U.S. Civil War and the attack on Ft. Sumpter. And the other problem is "What about the people who don't want to secede"?

Nullification is different in my book. There's no not to assert what you're going to do. You can just decide to "no cooperate". It's civil disobedience taken to another level. Some states have nullified the NDAA. If enough states said "You know what? You can't use our prisons to house Americans. And we're going to instruct all police not to cooperate with any federal orders." then what? Sure that could become violent, but then you're forcing the feds to make the first move.

As for the FSP, after spending time here at RPF and seeing how some people sling around "property rights" I don't think I'd want to leave there. I'm afraid all of the roads around me would become private property and people could say "You are banned from traveling on my road" and if I dared have a bumper sticker on my car that said "The owners of these roads suck" just my speaking up for myself could be construed as a "violation of property rights" etc.


Secession is the act of withdrawing from an organization, union, or especially a political entity. This can take many forms.



Nullification is a form of incremental secession. I'm all for nullification too.

More than anything, I'm for liberty agglomeration projects like the FSP. This, also, is a form of secession.

There's really only two things you need to know:
1) Only a minority of people in this country want freedom. The majority want tyranny.
2) A government is only a representation of its people

So, if you want freedom, the bottom line is you need to surround yourself with liberty-minded people, and separate yourself from others who seek to enslave you. Thus, secession. What form this takes, really is of little importance to me. State, county, move overseas, take an island, micro-secession, go North of the Wall, whatever.

FSP does look to be our best bet presently. Agglomerate in NH -> Nullify -> Secede.

[Athan]

What exactly does "the collapse" entail. If its a "mathematical inevitably" you obviously must have a mathematically sound theory of what it actually entails.

And I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand by not freaking out constantly about a collapse. I actually used to do that to a large degree but that was way before Paul. My point is actually the reverse of what you are saying, I'm saying the collapsaholics are the ones who seem to want to bury their head in the sand by constantly denying any kind of educational strategy and just waiting for doomsday in their couch fort.

For the math, check our debt clock. Here's the link: http://www.usdebtclock.org/

+ 2 Trillion in Annual Revenue
-3.5 Trillion in Annual Spending
-15 Trillion in Debt
-57 Trillion in Total Debt
-118 Trillion in future unfunded liabilities (Future dues like promises in Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, Pensions)

Also we can't just monitize debt. It isn't that simple, as you know we owe 1 trillion to the Federal Reserve. Why? Interest. So as we monitize debt to pay off the debt because we can't pay for it by legitimate means, that means we also create interest owed to the Federal Reserve. Just so you know 175 Trillion (57 Trillion + 118 Trillion = 175 Trillion) will add up to insane amounts of interest due to the fed.

Say thank you Federal Reserve!

[TheTexan]

Secession at the "state" level is almost never peaceful. (State as in "government"). At some point the newly formed "state" has to assert its authority. That's what happened in the U.S. Civil War and the attack on Ft. Sumpter.

Ft. Sumpter was 150 years ago. I think it's nigh time for another attempt at secession. There have been enough peaceful secessions in the last 30 years to believe we also can do it peacefully.


And the other problem is "What about the people who don't want to secede"?

Ideally it would be best to scare them out of the vicinity via liberty legislation (FSP is apparently doing this already...), but at the end of the day, this isn't a concern of mine. I'm only concerned insofar that the more "people who don't want to secede" that live there, the less legitimate the attempt will be seen as, and the more likely violence will occur. Other than that, fuck 'em. There's plenty of other places to find tyranny, so if they don't like freedom, they can get out.


Nullification is different in my book. There's no not to assert what you're going to do. You can just decide to "no cooperate". It's civil disobedience taken to another level. Some states have nullified the NDAA. If enough states said "You know what? You can't use our prisons to house Americans. And we're going to instruct all police not to cooperate with any federal orders." then what?

Every nullification is an incremental secession. It's the same thing as secession, just more gradual.


Sure that could become violent, but then you're forcing the feds to make the first move.

Again... same thing with secession.


As for the FSP, after spending time here at RPF and seeing how some people sling around "property rights" I don't think I'd want to leave there. I'm afraid all of the roads around me would become private property and people could say "You are banned from traveling on my road" and if I dared have a bumper sticker on my car that said "The owners of these roads suck" just my speaking up for myself could be construed as a "violation of property rights" etc.

You'd rather live in a country ran like it is today than in a country ran by Ron paul supporters? Interesting. Why are you here again?

[AuH20]

Not sure ... But you should hide under your bed, and live in fear :rolleyes:

I'd rather be the ant than the grasshopper. And there are many grasshoppers who refuse to see winter coming.

[jmdrake]

Ft. Sumpter was 150 years ago. I think it's nigh time for another attempt at secession. There have been enough peaceful secessions in the last 30 years to believe we also can do it peacefully.


There have been far more violent ones than peaceful ones.



Ideally it would be best to scare them out of the vicinity via liberty legislation (FSP is apparently doing this already...), but at the end of the day, this isn't a concern of mine. I'm only concerned insofar that the more "people who don't want to secede" that live there, the less legitimate the attempt will be seen as, and the more likely violence will occur. Other than that, fuck 'em. There's plenty of other places to find tyranny, so if they don't like freedom, they can get out.


Why would you want to scare anyone away? :confused: Sounds like a type of initiation of force. And "f*ck em"? If they've been living there much longer than you just "f*ck em"? Would Ron Paul have such a sorry attitude?




Every nullification is an incremental secession. It's the same thing as secession, just more gradual.


Your saying that repeatedly doesn't make it true. Nullification is nullification. Secession is secession. Nullification isn't saying "I'm not part of country X anymore". It's saying "I'm going to ignore law Y".




Again... same thing with secession.


Again, your opinion.



You'd rather live in a country ran like it is today than in a country ran by Ron paul supporters? Interesting. Why are you here again?

I doubt Ron Paul would want to live in a country run by people with a "f*ck em" attitude. So why are you here? And I see you didn't even bother addressing my question. I'll pose it again. What's your answer to the "locked in by liberty" problem where someone could buy up all of the roads around you and say "You're free to travel as long as you don't cross my private property"?

Anyway, to answer your question, many Ron Paul supporters agree with his stated goal of restoring the constitutional republic. And yeah I've seen the "Motorhome diaries" interview and I think that's an interesting intellectual exercise. But intellectual exercises don't happen in a vacuum. Many people who want "liberty" show by their actions that they would enforce their own brand of tyranny given the chance. I was hoping your answer to my question about people who didn't want to secede would be "Well maybe we'd break up into smaller enclaves that didn't include them" or "Maybe we'd move offshore and build an island where people weren't already living" or anything other than a "Hey, let's see if we can pass a law that will scare people who disagree with us away! Yeah, lets all run around naked so that folks who don't understand liberty as well as we do will give up on their 150 year old family farms and leave the state!"

I'm here because Ron Paul is the best chance to end the wars and roll back the police state. I'm not here to join a state project with someone not mature enough to dispassionately debate his ideas.

[TheTexan]

Why would you want to scare anyone away? :confused: Sounds like a type of initiation of force. And "f*ck em"? If they've been living there much longer than you just "f*ck em"? Would Ron Paul have such a sorry attitude?

Scare them not through force, but through freedom. Most people are averse to freedom, so by enacting liberty legislation they move out of the area naturally, on their own. I'd prefer that the people who brought us to this point today weren't voting on the laws I'd have to live under. As for "fuck em", well there is not a free place in the world to live, outside of remote locations in desert & cold. The people who like tyranny, they have the entire planet to choose from. I don't think it unfair to stake out just a small area where we can live free.



Your saying that repeatedly doesn't make it true. Nullification is nullification. Secession is secession. Nullification isn't saying "I'm not part of country X anymore". It's saying "I'm going to ignore law Y".

I think you missed the point. Or you're just playing semantics.


I doubt Ron Paul would want to live in a country run by people with a "f*ck em" attitude. So why are you here?

Freedom.


And I see you didn't even bother addressing my question. I'll pose it again. What's your answer to the "locked in by liberty" problem where someone could buy up all of the roads around you and say "You're free to travel as long as you don't cross my private property"?

I didn't answer it because I thought it was just an example. I didn't think you expected an answer. There are plenty of answers to your private property question in the philosophical forum. And no, unless you're a rapist/murderer/etc, people are not going to bar you from entering their private property for purposes of peaceful travel.


Many people who want "liberty" show by their actions that they would enforce their own brand of tyranny given the chance.

You clearly don't understand freedom. This ignorance surely isn't from a lack of exposure, you have 18,000 posts. Maybe my idea of freedom is simply different from yours, and I accept that. Agree to disagree.

[WilliamC]

Let me get this straight though.

The government lobbyists would rather have civil war just to cling onto power, in order for people like Ben Bernanke to get a blow job from a Japanese Stripper in his jacuzzi? They can't just quit while they're ahead, because that extra $1,000,000 dollars is so important for them?

What people have to realize is that for the evil psychopaths at the top of the pyramid there is never enough wealth or power or control to satisfy them, they honestly think they are gods and entitled to rule over us lesser beings.

So yes, that extra trillion dollars is that important to them and the power it represents.

When asked how much is enough there only answer is more more more.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJeA7yD8DXg&feature=fvst

[jmdrake]

I'd prefer that the people who brought us to this point today weren't voting on the laws I'd have to live under. As for "fuck em", well there is not a free place in the world to live, outside of remote locations in desert & cold. The people who like tyranny, they have the entire planet to choose from. I don't think it unfair to stake out just a small area where we can live free.


So the people who would still like to be able to travel across the state without permission from the new "road barrons" just don't like freedom? Okay.



I think you missed the point. Or you're just playing semantics.


Or maybe your point isn't as good as you think it is? Is that possibility beyond your ability to fathom?



Freedom.


And freedom requires a "f*ck em" attitude? Ron Paul seems to embrace freedom fine without the tude. Why can't you?




I didn't answer it because I thought it was just an example. I didn't think you expected an answer. There are plenty of answers to your private property question in the philosophical forum. And no, unless you're a rapist/murderer/etc, people are not going to bar you from entering their private property for purposes of peaceful travel.


Someone could just be a prick. Unless your new "freedom" doesn't allow for jerks.



You clearly don't understand freedom. This ignorance surely isn't from a lack of exposure, you have 18,000 posts. Maybe my idea of freedom is simply different from yours, and I accept that. Agree to disagree.

LOL. So in the same paragraph you throughout insults about how I must be "ignorant" and "clearly not understand freedom" and then you try to clean it up at the end with an "agree to disagree" and "I accept that" statement? The sad part is you probably don't understand how inconsistent that is. Oh well. Maybe after 18,000 you'll come to realize that you don't know as much as you think you do. Until you can ask the hard questions of your own philosophy, and not just blindly attack those who disagree with you, you aren't ready to be a "freedom ambassador". Of course that's just my opinion.

[TheTexan]

So the people who would still like to be able to travel across the state without permission from the new "road barrons" just don't like freedom? Okay.

There are easy answers to the roads question on the philosophical forum if you're truly interested.


Or maybe your point isn't as good as you think it is? Is that possibility beyond your ability to fathom?

Or maybe your reading comprehension sucks. If you nullify everything, but one thing at a time, what happens at the end? Secession. Nullification is an incremental form of secession.


And freedom requires a "f*ck em" attitude? Ron Paul seems to embrace freedom fine without the tude. Why can't you?

Shrug. Forgive me if I'm my concerns lie not with their desire for taxes, wars, and 130,000 laws.


Someone could just be a prick. Unless your new "freedom" doesn't allow for jerks.

There's always going to be jerks. Except, in a free society, those jerks don't have badges. There are free ways to deal with jerks, but when the jerks have the might & force & full authority of the United States justice system & military behind them.... no, you cannot deal with those jerks.


LOL. So in the same paragraph you throughout insults about how I must be "ignorant" and "clearly not understand freedom" and then you try to clean it up at the end with an "agree to disagree" and "I accept that" statement? The sad part is you probably don't understand how inconsistent that is.

You're hung up on non-issues of freedom. You seem to be inventing tyranny where there is none. I don't know you well enough to say for sure, but you exhibit signs of being afraid of freedom. For now, I'm throwing you in the "tyranny lover" category. I could be wrong, but if that's the case, there is no reason in arguing with you. People who don't want freedom... just don't want freedom, and no amount of intellectual discourse can change that. Thus, the agree to disagree part.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Pfft !!

If SHTF, all I see are targets and potential enemies ... Let them find their own Liberty, or not.

I'll not be carrying the water for those who created/supported the mess, but I will defend till my death, those who hold the principles of FREEDOM above the common good.

Exactly. I've explained the message of liberty to people plenty of times. And I'm so tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I know I'm right. But it's depressing talking to people who obviously don't want to hear it. So I won't waste my time or theirs. I won't stop talking about liberty and freedom with other like minds, and I'll try a few times on people I think are worth it, other than that. No, I'm going to enjoy my life.

[Carson]

Let me get this straight though.

The government lobbyists would rather have civil war just to cling onto power, in order for people like Ben Bernanke to get a blow job from a Japanese Stripper in his jacuzzi? They can't just quit while they're ahead, because that extra $1,000,000 dollars is so important for them?

They are like a monkey caught in a coconut trap and can't let go of the peanuts and free their hand out of the hole. (http://www.ghinsberg.com/1m5/the-burmese-monkey-trap.html)

[Lishy]

What people have to realize is that for the evil psychopaths at the top of the pyramid there is never enough wealth or power or control to satisfy them, they honestly think they are gods and entitled to rule over us lesser beings.

So yes, that extra trillion dollars is that important to them and the power it represents.

When asked how much is enough there only answer is more more more.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJeA7yD8DXg&feature=fvst

So in other words, people like Dick Cheney have time get their cocks sucked and write a million non-fiction books I see at chapters, but they can't do shit to clean up the mess they've created?

You know what? EXCUUUSE ME!

How DARE I speak out against the almighty Dick Cheney's blowjob!?!?

This is an INJUSTICE!

DICK CHENEY DESERVES ANOTHER BLOWJOB FROM A CHEAP ASS HOE WHILE CHEATING ON HIS WIFE!

SHUT!

UP!

HIS BLOW JOB IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU!!!

[Evangelical_Protestant]

I suppose a collapse would really suck. I'm not overly concerned however because I have several fishing poles and live in the woodland zone of the United States where deer and bluegill are abundant. I also have several rifles.

That's really all one needs isn't it? A fishing pole, a rifle with a few 28 rnd magazines and a pocket bible. I'm good. Could use some warm boots though. Oh and a hat with ear flaps, those are good.

[WilliamC]

So in other words, people like Dick Cheney have time get their cocks sucked and write a million non-fiction books I see at chapters, but they can't do shit to clean up the mess they've created?

You know what? EXCUUUSE ME!

How DARE I speak out against the almighty Dick Cheney's blowjob!?!?

This is an INJUSTICE!

DICK CHENEY DESERVES ANOTHER BLOWJOB!

That's sort of exactly the point of the video except perhaps I could not have stated it quite so vivaciously. Interesting.

I would like to see all people regardless of rank or station held to the same standard of justice, so if Cheney and his ilk have committed documented crimes for which there is legal evidence I would like to see them charged, arrested, prosecuted and, if found guilty jailed or worse.

That is the ultimate outcome of any revolution, the overthrow of the empowered establishment by a new coalition of interests who have seized enough control to actually carry through on the Rule of Law. Of course in some Countries with less institutionalized or engrained traditions of Liberty than we have in the United States there is much more concern for violence in the course of a Revolution, but the Constitutional framework of our Federal Government gives us a revolution every two years with the election of the entire House of Representatives, every 4 years with the election of a President, and every six years with the election of State Senators. So we have a long tradition of handling even profound transformations of our Government without the need to resort to violence.

That's what we are seeing today with the Ron Paul Revolution. This is a Jeffersonian Revolution, a blood-less coup, a popular uprising backed by a reaffirmation of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Rule of Law, not a Robespierrian Revolution based on mob rule and anarchy and violence run rampant. Leave those sorts of ideas to our opponents, make sure they are the ones who go there if anyone is insane enough to actually do so. Let them be the one's who attack without provocation and give themselves up to evil to attempt to accomplish their goals.

Let us be the ones who defeat them just as our Founding Fathers defeated the tyrants of their time, but with the insignificant price of some small number of us having to turn off our televisions, get up off of our couches, leave our homes and go to some boring and possibly contentious meetings and show up in large enough numbers to simply take control of the very reigns of power that allow the current leadership to manipulate the system. That's far less of a sacrifice that so many others have made before us.

Just make damn sure though that if you do find yourself in a position of authority over your fellow citizen you follow this one simple creed to keep you from becoming part of the problem you are claiming to be trying to solve. That is the motto of the Army's West Point Cadets with regards to their actions as students and officers and guardians of the Weapons of our Republic and the penultimate force that secures our freedoms.

I will not lie, cheat or steal nor will I tolerate those that do.

Find your own role models in America's history. Read about these individuals, the sacrifices they made in their own personal lives, the incredible adversities they faced and terrible prices they paid for their convictions and our freedoms, then model your selves after them. Personally I'm needing to read more of Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and Robert E. Lee. Each seems to embody a certain aspect of the American psyche, Thomas Paine the paramount importance of the sovereign individual over both God and Government, Benjamin Franklin the intellectual curiosity and skepticism that allowed him and thousand like him to see through the folly of monarchy and the deluded worldviews that dominated European thinking, and Robert E. Lee for being the living example of integrity and indefatigable devotion to duty and honor. I can only hope to learn something from them that will help me to both better myself and better serve my fellow man.

And if certain former public officials find themselves in Federal Prisons getting sexual 'favors' from fellow inmates, why that actually wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

[brushfire]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110531160746/fallouting/images/a/a0/Barrel_of_a_gun.jpg DAMN STRAIGHT IT"S LOADED


Not that it matters all that much, but that's one fugly crown. Youch is that fugly...

[jmdrake]

There are easy answers to the roads question on the philosophical forum if you're truly interested.

Then you should be able to answer it in a single sentence instead of referring me to thousands of posts in a forum.



Or maybe your reading comprehension sucks. If you nullify everything, but one thing at a time, what happens at the end? Secession. Nullification is an incremental form of secession.


Or maybe your understanding of the word "nullify" sucks. Question, what happens when you try to travel to another country once you've "nullified" your passport? To nullify something is passive resistance. Secession requires active resistance. If federal troops come across your border at will then you haven't successfully seceded.



Shrug. Forgive me if I'm my concerns lie not with their desire for taxes, wars, and 130,000 laws.


Who said anything about a desire for taxes or wars or 130,000 laws? I'd love to see Ron Paul elected president. I assume when that happens taxes will go down (preferably to zero), needless wars will end and senseless laws will be repealed. There will probably still be war (Ron Paul said he would fight over the Panama Canal with an act of congress for instance) some laws (Ron Paul's desire to overturn Roe v. Wade would mean more state laws restricting abortion) and some forms of revenue.



There's always going to be jerks. Except, in a free society, those jerks don't have badges. There are free ways to deal with jerks, but when the jerks have the might & force & full authority of the United States justice system & military behind them.... no, you cannot deal with those jerks.


Oh, but they have the "force" of "property rights". And those "rights" have to be enforced somehow. It's easy for blowhards like yourself to act like petulant little children and verbally attack others on an internet forum when you haven't thought everything through. Actually building a society is another matter altogether. I see your lack of maturity (yes you personally) and think "Would I really want to live in a society run by someone like that? Probably not". Ron Paul I respect. You I don't.



You're hung up on non-issues of freedom. You seem to be inventing tyranny where there is none. I don't know you well enough to say for sure, but you exhibit signs of being afraid of freedom. For now, I'm throwing you in the "tyranny lover" category. I could be wrong, but if that's the case, there is no reason in arguing with you. People who don't want freedom... just don't want freedom, and no amount of intellectual discourse can change that. Thus, the agree to disagree part.

LOL. Whatever dude. I don't want freedom so I'm voting for Dr. Paul, donating money to his campaign, volunteering to help he and other candidates who actually understand freedom and responsibility and general dignity etc. I see insolent little brats like you getting mad because I don't think you're mature enough to run a lemonade stand let alone a state and that means I "don't love freedom". Okay. I hope when you grow up you can be like Dr. Paul.

Edit: Honestly I don't even understand the point of your stupid tirade. All I said from jump is that I have no interest in the free state project. Your unreasonableness underscores that my initial thoughts on that were correct. But hey, you wanna do it don't let me stop you. If it turns out great I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Domalais]

There are easy answers to the roads question on the philosophical forum if you're truly interested.

Oh yes, the philosophical forum, home of intelligent debate and thoughtful, insightful ideas on freedom and the future of nations.

[A Son of Liberty]

"Nation" is a construct.

[Pericles]

What people have to realize is that for the evil psychopaths at the top of the pyramid there is never enough wealth or power or control to satisfy them, they honestly think they are gods and entitled to rule over us lesser beings.

So yes, that extra trillion dollars is that important to them and the power it represents.

When asked how much is enough there only answer is more more more.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJeA7yD8DXg&feature=fvst


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.C. S. Lewis (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/C._S._Lewis/)

[jmdrake]

"Nation" is a construct.

Of course. So are property rights. Initially people just roamed around looking for stuff to eat. Yeah they had "possessions" which were things they made or traded for that they carried around with them. But they didn't consider owning the land they walked on. Not that land ownership is a bad idea. I own land. But the idea that I can own something that I didn't make but merely "staked out" or bought from someone else who "staked it out" is as much a construct as anything else.

[A Son of Liberty]

I disagree... but that's a discussion for another thread. Another sub-forum, actually. :)

[jmdrake]

I disagree... but that's a discussion for another thread. Another sub-forum, actually. :)

+rep for disagreeing in an agreeable manner. ;) Though I'm curious as to what you're disagreeing with? My assertion that early man was nomadic and had no concept of land as property (seems pretty self-evident to me) or the idea that flows from that which is property rights (owning something you aren't possessing) is a construct?

[A Son of Liberty]

+rep for disagreeing in an agreeable manner. ;) Though I'm curious as to what you're disagreeing with? My assertion that early man was nomadic and had no concept of land as property (seems pretty self-evident to me) or the idea that flows from that which is property rights (owning something you aren't possessing) is a construct?

Reciprocated. ;) :thumbs:

I disagree that property rights are a construct - I say that they are a natural consequence of our individual sovereignty, which is objective and observable.

[jmdrake]

Reciprocated. ;) :thumbs:

I disagree that property rights are a construct - I say that they are a natural consequence of our individual sovereignty, which is objective and observable.

Fair enough. But sovereignty over what exactly? Everyplace you happened to put your foot? Everyplace you happened to put your foot first? Everyplace your ancestor happened to put his foot first? I'm all for enjoying the fruits of my labor. Am I really naturally entitled to the fruits of some ancestors labor who didn't know about me and might have disinherited me if he had the chance? Don't get me wrong. I believe in inheritance rights[1]. But I think that's a construct.

[1] Edit: It's actually a right to devise (dispose of) property rather than a right to inherit it. Technically there are no inheritance "rights" because anyone can be written out of someone's will.

[TheTexan]

Then you should be able to answer it in a single sentence instead of referring me to thousands of posts in a forum.

The way I see it, is with your 18,000 posts there is a high probability you've already seen those answers and rejected them. I don't plan on running down that pointless road with you.


Or maybe your understanding of the word "nullify" sucks. Question, what happens when you try to travel to another country once you've "nullified" your passport? To nullify something is passive resistance. Secession requires active resistance. If federal troops come across your border at will then you haven't successfully seceded.

If federal troops come across your border to enforce the 16th amendment, you haven't successfully nullified the 16th amendment, either. Neither is passive.


Who said anything about a desire for taxes or wars or 130,000 laws? I'd love to see Ron Paul elected president.

I was talking about their desires, not yours.


I assume when that happens taxes will go down (preferably to zero), needless wars will end and senseless laws will be repealed. There will probably still be war (Ron Paul said he would fight over the Panama Canal with an act of congress for instance) some laws (Ron Paul's desire to overturn Roe v. Wade would mean more state laws restricting abortion) and some forms of revenue.

Needless wars will end because that's directly in his power. As for taxes, or meaningful cuts... he may be able to pull off his trillion cut plan, but I don't see him doing much more than that without fierce resistance.

If Ron Paul wins it will be through political maneuvering and not ideological education. What he can achieve will be limited, and temporary. The natural forces of tyranny are greater than this movement unfortunately. As long as we try to fight it instead of separate from it, we cannot win.


Oh, but they have the "force" of "property rights". And those "rights" have to be enforced somehow. It's easy for blowhards like yourself to act like petulant little children and verbally attack others on an internet forum when you haven't thought everything through. Actually building a society is another matter altogether. I see your lack of maturity (yes you personally) and think "Would I really want to live in a society run by someone like that? Probably not". Ron Paul I respect. You I don't.

LOL. Whatever dude. I don't want freedom so I'm voting for Dr. Paul, donating money to his campaign, volunteering to help he and other candidates who actually understand freedom and responsibility and general dignity etc. I see insolent little brats like you getting mad because I don't think you're mature enough to run a lemonade stand let alone a state and that means I "don't love freedom". Okay. I hope when you grow up you can be like Dr. Paul.

Edit: Honestly I don't even understand the point of your stupid tirade. All I said from jump is that I have no interest in the free state project. Your unreasonableness underscores that my initial thoughts on that were correct. But hey, you wanna do it don't let me stop you. If it turns out great I'll be pleasantly surprised.

You mad bro? No reason for name calling. Let's keep this civil.

What was interesting about your response to the FSP is not your disagreements with anarchy per se, but moreso that you immediately jumped to the conclusion that a country ran by Ron Paul supporters would be anarchist, and that country would inherently be worse than the one we have today.

[A Son of Liberty]

Fair enough. But sovereignty over what exactly? Everyplace you happened to put your foot? Everyplace you happened to put your foot first? Everyplace your ancestor happened to put his foot first? I'm all for enjoying the fruits of my labor. Am I really naturally entitled to the fruits of some ancestors labor who didn't know about me and might have disinherited me if he had the chance? Don't get me wrong. I believe in inheritance rights[1]. But I think that's a construct.

[1] Edit: It's actually a right to devise (dispose of) property rather than a right to inherit it. Technically there are no inheritance "rights" because anyone can be written out of someone's will.

Out of respect for the owners/moderators of this website, I’d be happy to continue the discussion with you in one of the private sub-forums; my responses would contain content outside of what they allow in the open forums here.

[jmdrake]

The way I see it, is with your 18,000 posts there is a high probability you've already seen those answers and rejected them. I don't plan on running down that pointless road with you.

Actually I haven't seen a real answer to the particular question I posed. The only answer I can think of is one that I gave myself which is to forget roads, get helicopters, and everyone agree that they don't have property rights to their airspace. It's funny that you can't take the time to give a simply answer to a straightforward question, but you do have time to continue to engage and insult someone that simply disagrees with you and doesn't think the FSP is well thought out. Fine. To each his own.


If federal troops come across your border to enforce the 16th amendment, you haven't successfully nullified the 16th amendment, either. Neither is passive.


A state could still successfully, and peacefully, nullify by not cooperating with those federal troops. Are you aware that most "federal" prisons are housed in state prison facilities? And imagine what would happen if, instead of helping DEA agents, sheriffs started actively tipping off hemp growers when the DEA came to town? The federal government requires active cooperation from its vassals in order to carry out its schemes. Heck, the federal government can't even hold elections without active cooperation from the states.




Who said anything about a desire for taxes or wars or 130,000 laws? I'd love to see Ron Paul elected president.
I was talking about their desires, not yours.

Yes. But the fact that I want Ron Paul elected proves that there are some people who aren't interested in secession but have a desire to dispense with taxes, elective wars and needless laws.



You mad bro? No reason for name calling. Let's keep this civil.


You started with the incivility. But I don't mind returning to civil discourse if that is what you wish at this point.



What was interesting about your response to the FSP is not your disagreements with anarchy per se, but moreso that you immediately jumped to the conclusion that a country ran by Ron Paul supporters would be anarchist, and that country would inherently be worse than the one we have today.

Please quote where I said that. I'm pretty sure I never said that. I'm trying to get Ron Paul supporters elected to office after all. But none of the ones I've worked for have stated secession as one of their goals. (Yeah I know. You think "nullify" = "secession" even though it doesn't). I want to return to a constitutional republic. Yeah the constitution isn't perfect etc, but it's better IMO than what I've seen so far from proposed.

Edit: Why do you make the assumption that FSP = country run by Ron Paul supporters? That's one way Ron Paul supporters could run a country. Another is that they could simply get elected to office. I saw someone pose the question would a president Ron Paul oppose secession. Well why would any Ron Paul supporter want to secede if he was president? :confused:

[TheTexan]

Actually I haven't seen a real answer to the particular question I posed. The only answer I can think of is one that I gave myself which is to forget roads, get helicopters, and everyone agree that they don't have property rights to their airspace. It's funny that you can't take the time to give a simply answer to a straightforward question, but you do have time to continue to engage and insult someone that simply disagrees with you and doesn't think the FSP is well thought out. Fine. To each his own.

Two more reasons I'm still not going to give you a straight forward answer to the roads question: 1) I have no interest in debating anarchy with you, and 2) This isn't the place to do it


A state could still successfully, and peacefully, nullify by not cooperating with those federal troops. Are you aware that most "federal" prisons are housed in state prison facilities? And imagine what would happen if, instead of helping DEA agents, sheriffs started actively tipping off hemp growers when the DEA came to town? The federal government requires active cooperation from its vassals in order to carry out its schemes. Heck, the federal government can't even hold elections without active cooperation from the states.

"Not cooperate" meaning... stand aside and not cooperate but let them do what they came to do? Or "Not cooperate" as in, get in their way and make sure they don't do it?


You started with the incivility. But I don't mind returning to civil discourse if that is what you wish at this point.

Did I? What was it, the ignorance of freedom comment? There are a great many people in this country that are ignorant of freedom. I don't mean it as an insult, it just is what it is. They don't understand it and never will, and I do not fault them for that.


Please quote where I said that. I'm pretty sure I never said that. I'm trying to get Ron Paul supporters elected to office after all. But none of the ones I've worked for have stated secession as one of their goals. (Yeah I know. You think "nullify" = "secession" even though it doesn't).

You did say it. Here's the quotes:


FSP does look to be our best bet presently. Agglomerate in NH -> Nullify -> Secede.


As for the FSP, after spending time here at RPF and seeing how some people sling around "property rights" I don't think I'd want to leave there. I'm afraid all of the roads around me would become private property and people could say "You are banned from traveling on my road" and if I dared have a bumper sticker on my car that said "The owners of these roads suck" just my speaking up for myself could be construed as a "violation of property rights" etc.

Roads issue is an anarchy problem. Not a minarchy problem. You immediately assumed that a country ran by RPF members would be anarchist. The 'anarchist' claim may be an implied assumption based on your roads complaint.

What you said explicitly though is that you said you'd rather live in this country than a country ran by RPF members. Is this not what you meant? If so please clarify.

[jmdrake]

Two more reasons I'm still not going to give you a straight forward answer to the roads question: 1) I have no interest in debating anarchy with you, and 2) This isn't the place to do it


Then quit answering.



"Not cooperate" meaning... stand aside and not cooperate but let them do what they came to do? Or "Not cooperate" as in, get in their way and make sure they don't do it?


False choice. Not cooperate meaning "When the Feds inevitably come to you and say 'would you please let us keep prisoners X1 - X1000 in your facility. We'll gladly pay you for it'." telling them to take a hike. Not cooperating also as in not turning over records the feds need etc. There are lots of ways to passively/aggressively not cooperate.



Did I? What was it, the ignorance of freedom comment? There are a great many people in this country that are ignorant of freedom. I don't mean it as an insult, it just is what it is. They don't understand it and never will, and I do not fault them for that.


And I think you're immature. I hope someday you will mature. It's not your fault that you are immature. There are a great many people in this country who are immature and think they know more than what they do. I don't fault them for that.




You did say it. Here's the quotes:

As for the FSP, after spending time here at RPF and seeing how some people sling around "property rights" I don't think I'd want to leave there. I'm afraid all of the roads around me would become private property and people could say "You are banned from traveling on my road" and if I dared have a bumper sticker on my car that said "The owners of these roads suck" just my speaking up for myself could be construed as a "violation of property rights" etc.

Ah. I see you have a reading comprehension problem. I didn't say I didn't want to live in a country run by Ron Paul supporters. I said I didn't want to live there as in the free state project! There are many Ron Paul supporters that don't have the "f*ck em" attitude that you've displayed. Many who aren't looking to "secede". Some who do what to secede I'm cool with too. But I've run into enough who don't really have a concept of freedom, but think they do and that it's just the "other guy" that doesn't, not to want to live in some seceded - land locked country run by them. In other words, I'm not rejecting the idea of Ron Paul supporters in general running a country, just ones like you. Sorry, no offense intended.



Roads issue is an anarchy problem. Not a minarchy problem. You immediately assumed that a country ran by RPF members would be anarchist. The 'anarchist' claim may be an implied assumption based on your roads complaint.

I never said anything regarding a "country run by RPF members". I specifically pointed out types of RPF members that I wouldn't want running a country. And really it's not the anarchist part that bothers me as much as the "f*ck em" attitude. Some anarchists are wonderful people.



What you said explicitly though is that you said you'd rather live in this country than a country ran by RPF members. Is this not what you meant? If so please clarify.

What you wrote isn't what I said. What part of the phrase "some people" do you not understand?

Again what I said. This time read carefully.

after spending time here at RPF and seeing how some people sling around "property rights"

For example, I've seen some people argue the abortion question this way. If someone stole his way onto my boat, shouldn't I have a right to just throw him off? Of course it's a bad analogy because no fetus ever forced himself into a woman. That's true even in cases of rape. The guilty party is the rapist. That would be like someone being kidnapped and forced onto a boat owned by a third party. Does the third party have a right to throw the kidnap victim off into the ocean just because of "property rights"?

Now I'm not trying to derail this further by talking about abortion. It's the analogy that concerns me that lifts property rights above human rights. I wouldn't even throw someone overboard to certain death just for being a stowaway even if he wasn't forced on my boat. I'd make him earn his keep by scrubbing the deck or whatever else has to be done on a boat, then deal with the balance of what he owed me once we got to shore. To me that's the moral thing to do. Others may see it differently.

[TheTexan]

False choice. Not cooperate meaning "When the Feds inevitably come to you and say 'would you please let us keep prisoners X1 - X1000 in your facility. We'll gladly pay you for it'." telling them to take a hike. Not cooperating also as in not turning over records the feds need etc. There are lots of ways to passively/aggressively not cooperate.

And if the Feds arrest you for not cooperating, and then simply get the records themselves?


Ah. I see you have a reading comprehension problem. I didn't say I didn't want to live in a country run by Ron Paul supporters. I said I didn't want to live there as in the free state project! There are many Ron Paul supporters that don't have the "f*ck em" attitude that you've displayed. Many who aren't looking to "secede". Some who do what to secede I'm cool with too. But I've run into enough who don't really have a concept of freedom, but think they do and that it's just the "other guy" that doesn't, not to want to live in some seceded - land locked country run by them. In other words, I'm not rejecting the idea of Ron Paul supporters in general running a country, just ones like you. Sorry, no offense intended.

I never said anything regarding a "country run by RPF members". I specifically pointed out types of RPF members that I wouldn't want running a country. And really it's not the anarchist part that bothers me as much as the "f*ck em" attitude. Some anarchists are wonderful people.

What you wrote isn't what I said. What part of the phrase "some people" do you not understand?

Because you disagree with some people in the FSP, you want no part of the FSP?

[azxd]

Exactly. I've explained the message of liberty to people plenty of times. And I'm so tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I know I'm right. But it's depressing talking to people who obviously don't want to hear it. So I won't waste my time or theirs. I won't stop talking about liberty and freedom with other like minds, and I'll try a few times on people I think are worth it, other than that. No, I'm going to enjoy my life.I'm sure you are doing a fine job of it ... A single person cannot solve the World's problems, and in fact, is often busy just solving their own ;)

[azxd]

I suppose a collapse would really suck. I'm not overly concerned however because I have several fishing poles and live in the woodland zone of the United States where deer and bluegill are abundant. I also have several rifles.

That's really all one needs isn't it? A fishing pole, a rifle with a few 28 rnd magazines and a pocket bible. I'm good. Could use some warm boots though. Oh and a hat with ear flaps, those are good.NOPE ... Not even close.

What one needs to survive any situation is knowledge and the ability to remain calm.
Without those, survival can become short-lived and very rough.

All material things are expendable and replacable ;)

[jbauer]

Thats just plain assinine. If you support liberty you continue to talk about it, you continue to exercise your rights. You continue to try and "unplug" people. Everyone's ready to hear about liberty. Everyone is NOT ready to hear about it today. You have to be ready to teach them when they become ready to learn. You'll never know if they're ready without talking to them.


Exactly. I've explained the message of liberty to people plenty of times. And I'm so tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I know I'm right. But it's depressing talking to people who obviously don't want to hear it. So I won't waste my time or theirs. I won't stop talking about liberty and freedom with other like minds, and I'll try a few times on people I think are worth it, other than that. No, I'm going to enjoy my life.

[azxd]

Thats just plain assinine. If you support liberty you continue to talk about it, you continue to exercise your rights. You continue to try and "unplug" people. Everyone's ready to hear about liberty. Everyone is NOT ready to hear about it today. You have to be ready to teach them when they become ready to learn. You'll never know if they're ready without talking to them.

Exactly. I've explained the message of liberty to people plenty of times. And I'm so tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I know I'm right. But it's depressing talking to people who obviously don't want to hear it. So I won't waste my time or theirs. I won't stop talking about liberty and freedom with other like minds, and I'll try a few times on people I think are worth it, other than that. No, I'm going to enjoy my life.
Queen never said what your read :p

[jmdrake]

And if the Feds arrest you for not cooperating, and then simply get the records themselves?

They don't have the power to arrest everyone. Note how the feds initially backed down when people were going to "opt out" of the body scanners. Eventually when folks decided "I guess this isn't so bad. I'll go along" things picked up again. Besides, even our current law which has disregarded the constitution, the federal government has no power to compel the states to do squat. The feds are not allowed to commandeer state government, legislative or otherwise. That's why garbage like the Adam Walsh Act is tied to incentives paid to the states. If you're interested I can send you the case law on this. Claiming that the states nullifying federal law is the same as secession is as off-base as claiming that a president's veto or a congressional override of that veto or the Supreme Court overturning a federal law is somehow "secession". Can nullification lead to secession? I suppose. If the feds decide to ignore current Supreme Court precedent and commandeer state government. But saying that means nullification = secession is like saying a husband and wife disagreeing finance = divorce since it can lead to divorce.



Because you disagree with some people in the FSP, you want no part of the FSP?

The Ron Paul supporters I'd like to see running the country aren't the ones that are pushing for secession. And I think I've laid out my concerns about the FSP in general well enough at this point. Why can't you just accept that not everyone agrees with the FSP, at least from a "secession" point of view, and be done with it? If you want to secede, I'm not going to stand in your way. And when anti-secessionists bus in enough people to NH to override the FSP I'll just chuckle to myself and say I told you so. In the meantime, instead of trying to take over a single state in order to "secede" I'll continue working to help others try to take over the government of all 50 states and the federal government and restore the republic.

[azxd]

The real FSP will occur overnight, and will not be announced.

[jmdrake]

The real FSP will occur overnight, and will not be announced.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw

[azxd]

The American Writ of Grievances (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/posts)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DdNCS8uVkQ

[TheTexan]

The feds are not allowed to commandeer state government, legislative or otherwise.

They don't have the power to? Oh, I'd like to see you tell them that after you nullify everything in existence and they decide to have the Supreme Court "reaffirm nullification" in yet another case, to legitimize *whatever* they decided to do to your state.

The point you still have not grasped is that nullification is not passive. It's only passive while the Federal Government allows you to be passive. At some point, if the FedGov decides to put your nullification to a stop, you will be faced with a choice: defend the nullification, or forfeit it. Exactly the same with secession. You either defend your secession, or forfeit it.


The Ron Paul supporters I'd like to see running the country aren't the ones that are pushing for secession. And I think I've laid out my concerns about the FSP in general well enough at this point.

Actually you haven't. Pretty much the only thing you've said so far is that "I don't want any part of the FSP because I disagree with some people on the RPF". Pretty much those exact words, which you restated in your "rebuttal."


Why can't you just accept that not everyone agrees with the FSP, at least from a "secession" point of view, and be done with it? If you want to secede, I'm not going to stand in your way.

I can, and do accept that. Everyone has their own reasons for joining the FSP but they all want liberty, and recognize we need to agglomerate to take it.

There are many people on these forums that I respect that do not want to be a part of the FSP. Either they want to give freedom to the entire country, or don't want to leave their home, or think it wouldn't work, or think it makes it easier for the Fed Gov to target us violently because we're in one place. I disagree with all of these reasons, but they are legitimate reasons nonetheless.

You on the other hand... don't want to be a part of the FSP because you disagree with some of the people on these forums. Which is just silly. You'll probably deny it and claim "reading comprehension" again... but those are the words you said, and continue to say. Cognitive dissonance IMO.

[Carson]

Let me get this straight though.

The government lobbyists would rather have civil war just to cling onto power, in order for people like Ben Bernanke to get a blow job from a Japanese Stripper in his jacuzzi? They can't just quit while they're ahead, because that extra $1,000,000 dollars is so important for them?


They are like a monkey caught in a coconut trap and can't let go of the peanuts and free their hand out of the hole. (http://www.ghinsberg.com/1m5/the-burmese-monkey-trap.html)

I wonder if a monkey can be coaxed to let go of the peanuts in the trap if he is given peanuts in the other hand and they are gradually pulled farther and farther away.

If the banking system was restored to a real banking system and the counterfeiting was done away with, the economy could blossom again like it never has before. It should be good for everyone.

[UWDude]

The r3volution is a peaceful movement. We don't want collapse, we want a gradual waking up of the masses, a real change of public opinion and subsequently real change in the role and scope of government in general.



never gonna happen. I used to think it could years ago, but you clearly do not understand the forces aligned against you.

The only thing that will change this country is catastrophe.

It is the state of man, to be fat and happy until he is forced to change.

[John F Kennedy III]

never gonna happen. I used to think it could years ago, but you clearly do not understand the forces aligned against you.

The only thing that will change this country is catastrophe.

It is the state of man, to be fat and happy until he is forced to change.

Sad but true.