What I know about the Raid of Liberty Dollar

[Jordan]

What I know about the Raid of Liberty Dollar

I just got back from visiting their location and speaking to the media about it. This is what I know so far:

The office was raided yesterday just before the business was to be opened. FBI agents stormed the building, and confiscated EVERYTHING.

The metals
The certificates
The hard drives
The files
Bank accounts
and even the plates to manufacture the dollars.

..The place is absolutely gutted. The safes are empty. The owner has not been charged with any crimes and currently lives in Florida.

No one was arrested!

I went to their location to find lights out and no one there. I talked to the media for about 20 minutes about the raids. As of right now, the Ron Paul meetup has showed up and already talked to 2 news agencies regarding the busts. The local news will be running a story on the busts and has interviewed many RP supporters.

[kylejack]

Do we know the judge who issued the warrant?

[Jordan]

Do we know the judge who issued the warrant?

I dont know anything about a warrant or whether or not one was issued. Sorry.

[Grandson of Liberty]

Do we know the judge who issued the warrant?

Warrants? We don't need no stinking warrants!!

[Danny Molina]

Those news pieces MUST BE YOUTUBED!

[reduen]

Jordan, I am not trying to disscredit you or anything but how do you know for sure that it happened?

[UtahApocalypse]

Who did you get the information from? If it was the media they could just be basing it on the e-mail. This is getting close but still not proof. The place is closed and empty? how do we know any agency raided and they didn't just pack up and leave? We need actual sources and people who were there, or have documentation. So far everything has been based on hearsay and the first e-mail.

[Jordan]

The media spoke to the FBI who could neither confirm nor deny the raid.

Im expecting something from the owner, who resides in Florida, to make some kind of notification.

[Danny Molina]

He lives in Evansville. Maybe he stopped by.

[Jordan]

He lives in Evansville. Maybe he stopped by.

I was just there 10 minutes ago. There are still news agencies interviewing meetup members at the location.

[kylejack]

Jordan, I am not trying to disscredit you or anything but how do you know for sure that it happened?

He drove down there and talked to people.

[Danny Molina]

I was just there 10 minutes ago. There are still news agencies interviewing meetup members at the location.

That's exactly what I thought. I was just making it clear to the guys in previous posts.

[reduen]

This is a letter from a friend on MySpace so I still see no credible evidenc here.

I am certainly not knocking Jordan on this though. Thanks Jordan for checking things out the best you could..:)


Dear Liberty Supporter,

I have called the Evansville police department and they were unaware of any raids by the FBI today -they said it was possible, but unlikely that it happened-

The FBI Evansville office said twice after I asked them to repeat: "NO they were not raided, but we are forwarding all inquiries to our media representative" I tried calling the media representative and of course there was no answer.

It seems that this is, after all, a hoax which might make "liberty" people look bad -like kooks- as the media call us. So please don't forward alarming things till you have confirmed them. I'm sure that the media will try its hardest to link this to Ron Paul to once again try to discredit him.

So, please please please... bulletin alerting everyone about this possible hoax and asking everyone to restrain themselves from panicking or causing panics now or in the future. They will do whatever it takes to discredit the peace movement; don't ad alarmist to the now in use "terrorist".

[UtahApocalypse]

I don't doubt Jordan went there, I am thankful he did.... it puts at least a few pieces together. However this is still no proof. Its just the media and people basing things from the e-mail and blogs. There are now only two possible options, this is not a hoax anymore.

1) The feds raided and took everything.

2) The company took everything and is long gone with everyones money and coins.

[bolidew]

This matter must be notified to EVERY media outlets!

[Sematary]

Warrants? We don't need no stinking warrants!!

Not in America. right comrade?

[reduen]

He drove down there and talked to people.


I got ya Kyle but it depends on who he talked too. They may not be getting their info from credible sources either. :)

[Danny Molina]

Why not believe the TS? He said he was just there.

If news agencies are there something obviously went down.

[Jordan]

This matter must be notified to EVERY media outlets!

Trust me, the meetup has hit everyone locally. Nationally, probably not.

[evadmurd]

I'm a little slow on the uptake. Can someone explain for us idiots what this establishment was and what they were doing that was apparently perceived as a crime? Sorry, I'm just not aware.

[LibertyEagle]

This matter must be notified to EVERY media outlets!

NO. It needs to be confirmed first. If Meetup members bring Ron Paul's campaign into this unfounded incident in interviews with the press, they are absolutely nuts!!!!

[Drknows]

Why is Ron Pauls name involved in this mess? im just saying.....

[Danny Molina]

I'm a little slow on the uptake. Can someone explain for us idiots what this establishment was and what they were doing that was apparently perceived as a crime? Sorry, I'm just not aware.

I believe it was making novelty money with RP's picture on it, but i'm not entirely sure.

[Sematary]

NO. It needs to be confirmed first. If Meetup members bring Ron Paul's campaign into this unfounded incident in interviews with the press, they are absolutely nuts!!!!

I had my doubts as well, this morning, but it sounds legit. This guy is saying he was there and Lew Rockwells site already has a post about it. I think we should keep RP's name out of it though.

[Chester Copperpot]

Do we know the judge who issued the warrant?

According to the Patriot Act you dont need to have a search warrant issued by a judge in this case.. The FBI can write its own self-written search warrant.

A clear violation of the Constitution

[Jordan]

I'm a little slow on the uptake. Can someone explain for us idiots what this establishment was and what they were doing that was apparently perceived as a crime? Sorry, I'm just not aware.

Its a currency that is made backed by gold and silver. Its not specified as legal tender, it was merely created as an alternate currency to FRNs.

[Sematary]

I believe it was making novelty money with RP's picture on it, but i'm not entirely sure.

not exactly novelty when it's made out of solid gold

[AceNZ]

If this story is correct, I'm surprised that it didn't happen earlier. If it hasn't happened yet, I'm sure it will.

The mistake these guys made was using the word "dollar". Have you ever seen a video of the way they suggest using the Liberty Dollars? They walk up to people and say something like "hey, would you be willing to accept this silver Liberty Dollar for that?" The problem is, that with the word "dollar" in there, it's too close to a "Peace Dollar" or a "Morgan Dollar" or other types of official US currency -- so it amounts to conterfeiting. If they had made it the "Liberty one ounce silver coin", I think things would be different.

I'm all for third-party money, but it really has to be done the right way.

[AceNZ]

Why is Ron Pauls name involved in this mess? im just saying.....

Liberty Dollar makes a "Ron Paul Dollar" (among others).

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar/index.htm

[Meatwasp]

If this story is correct, I'm surprised that it didn't happen earlier. If it hasn't happened yet, I'm sure it will.

The mistake these guys made was using the word "dollar". Have you ever seen a video of the way they suggest using the Liberty Dollars? They walk up to people and say something like "hey, would you be willing to accept this silver Liberty Dollar for that?" The problem is, that with the word "dollar" in there, it's too close to a "Peace Dollar" or a "Morgan Dollar" or other types of official US currency -- so it amounts to conterfeiting. If they had made it the "Liberty one ounce silver coin", I think things would be different.

I'm all for third-party money, but it really has to be done the right way.

I think if they would have called them medallions there would not have been in trouble.

[Dave Wood]

Its a currency that is made backed by gold and silver. Its not specified as legal tender, it was merely created as an alternate currency to FRNs.

Jordan, thanks for verifying this to the best of your ability!
Someone made a point in the original megathread (i think it was there, dont have time to go through all 600+ posts to verify though) that the thread was carried out by FBI and secret service. They stated that the treasury dept. would be the one in charge if the case didnt involve fraud or other crimes.

Is it possible that these folks were involved in something much larger than minting (allowed) alternative currency?

The agents seized a lot of property and didnt press any charges. It seems to me , if they were after evidence to prove counterfitting or illegal minting that they would press charges immediately after seizing the evidence. Just my .02

[DrNoZone]

What I know about the Raid of Liberty Dollar

I just got back from visiting their location and speaking to the media about it. This is what I know so far:

The office was raided yesterday just before the business was to be opened. FBI agents stormed the building, and confiscated EVERYTHING.

The metals
The certificates
The hard drives
The files
Bank accounts
and even the plates to manufacture the dollars.

..The place is absolutely gutted. The safes are empty. The owner has not been charged with any crimes and currently lives in Florida.

No one was arrested!

I went to their location to find lights out and no one there. I talked to the media for about 20 minutes about the raids. As of right now, the Ron Paul meetup has showed up and already talked to 2 news agencies regarding the busts. The local news will be running a story on the busts and has interviewed many RP supporters.

Here is the big issue I have with this account: the plates aren't stored in Evansville; they're (appropriately) stored at the Sunshine Mint where the coins are made.

[Dave Wood]

I think if they would have called them medallions there would not have been in trouble.

Where did you come up with your handle/name meatswap? What does that mean? I have been curios for a week now:o

[Jordan]

Here is the big issue I have with this account: the plates aren't stored in Evansville; they're (appropriately) stored at the Sunshine Mint where the coins are made.

The reporters mentioned a location in North Carolina as suspect. They also noted that the mint that held the plates was raided as well as Liberty Dollar.

[American]

Oh thank goodness, another liberty dollar thread.....

[reduen]

I just want my coppers!!! j/k

Call me selfish....

[DrNoZone]

The reporters mentioned a location in North Carolina as suspect. They also noted that the mint that held the plates was raided as well as Liberty Dollar.

I called the Sunshine Mint this morning and they knew nothing about any raid. And I'm not the only one; a few others called them as well and got the same story.

[pcosmar]

I have been following this all day. This is bad.
I had hoped that it was a hoax. It seems not, the confirmation of a raid is coming from several sources.
I would not be concerned with the "peace movement"., as someone else had stated.
I am concerned, many very well armed and trained folks are very pissed off.
This may have been meant to provoke a reaction.
Not good, not good at all.

[Melissa]

Hey Jordan I am in Fort Wayne is it usually busy at that store or do you know

[UtahApocalypse]

The reporters mentioned a location in North Carolina as suspect. They also noted that the mint that held the plates was raided as well as Liberty Dollar.

In that case this is 100%% Bull Crap.... Quite a few People have called the Mint and they knew nothing of this raid, and they were NOT raided. This tell me with no doubt in my mind that the owner packed up and ran with the money and coins.

[DrNoZone]

In that case this is 100%% Bull Crap.... Quite a few People have called the Mint and they knew nothing of this raid, and they were NOT raided. This tell me with no doubt in my mind that the owner packed up and ran with the money and coins.

Man, you just won't give up with your conspiracy theory will you? Why didn't they pack up and run years ago? They've been doing business for a LONG time.

[Jordan]

I called the Sunshine Mint this morning and they knew nothing about any raid. And I'm not the only one; a few others called them as well and got the same story.

I really do not think its a hoax, I was there and after discussing for nearly an hour I'm confident it isnt.

I can only provide the forums with what I know from being at the scene.

[ARealConservative]

I have been following this all day. This is bad.
I had hoped that it was a hoax. It seems not, the confirmation of a raid is coming from several sources.
I would not be concerned with the "peace movement"., as someone else had stated.
I am concerned, many very well armed and trained folks are very pissed off.
This may have been meant to provoke a reaction.
Not good, not good at all.

loose lips sink ships.

I've been worried too, but being powerless to stop such a thing if it were to happen.....bringing it up seems pointless and possibly damaging in itself.

Just something to consider for the future - no offense meant.

[DrNoZone]

I really do not think its a hoax, I was there and after discussing for nearly an hour I'm confident it isnt.

I can only provide the forums with what I know from being at the scene.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that I don't think anything has been confirmed proving that it did. I'm agnostic at this point.

[Jordan]

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that I don't think anything has been confirmed proving that it did. I'm agnostic at this point.

I completely understand. I'm just spewing what I've gotten and letting people make their own judgments.

[Danny Molina]

Take any pics Jordan?

[Jordan]

Take any pics Jordan?

Unfortunately not. I dont own a camera and pics really wouldn't have shown much.

[FluffyUnbound]

Why would Meetup group members go to this place and identify themselves as Paul supporters?

No one here has ANY IDEA what, if anything, these Liberty Dollar folks have done.

What if it's plain old fraud? What if they were scammers? What if that's why they were arrested? Great, let's associate the campaign with that. You guys are declaring this company the victim of an unfair government crackdown, when you know nothing about them.

I haven't seen their books. Have you? I haven't sat in on their board meetings. Have you? I haven't scrutinized all of their business practices. Have you?

Again, this entire incident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this campaign, and this is NOT a "Ron Paul Grassroots" topic.

Heck, the Barry Bonds indictment has more to do with Ron Paul's campaign than this.

[terlinguatx]

...

[Furis]

Well that suck.......... I wanted my Ron Paul........

[Danny Molina]

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/

[terlinguatx]

...

[Danny Molina]

Why would Meetup group members go to this place and identify themselves as Paul supporters?

No one here has ANY IDEA what, if anything, these Liberty Dollar folks have done.

What if it's plain old fraud? What if they were scammers? What if that's why they were arrested? Great, let's associate the campaign with that. You guys are declaring this company the victim of an unfair government crackdown, when you know nothing about them.

I haven't seen their books. Have you? I haven't sat in on their board meetings. Have you? I haven't scrutinized all of their business practices. Have you?

Again, this entire incident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this campaign, and this is NOT a "Ron Paul Grassroots" topic.

Heck, the Barry Bonds indictment has more to do with Ron Paul's campaign than this.

Nobody was arrested.

[Melissa]

Oh so the first thing we know from Jordan--- thanks so much by the way fellow Hoosier here --and now did any one actually call the FBI in North Carolina and if so what did they say.

That would be my next question.

[Meatwasp]

Where did you come up with your handle/name meatswap? What does that mean? I have been curios for a week now:o

I came to the wilderness from the city and when we cooked outside the yellow jackets got into our meat. I didn't know what yellow jackets were so I called them Meat wasps.

[PeacePlan]

Take a look at the prices skyrocket............

http://cgi.ebay.com/RON-PAUL-Silver-Liberty-1-OZ-20-Dollar-norfed-2007_W0QQitemZ320180712873QQihZ011QQcategoryZ39489 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[pcosmar]

loose lips sink ships.

I've been worried too, but being powerless to stop such a thing if it were to happen.....bringing it up seems pointless and possibly damaging in itself.

Just something to consider for the future - no offense meant.

I am not sure I would want to stop it.

I would recommend CAUTION, This may have been done to provoke a reaction.
I can warn, I can't control.

[pcosmar]

Nobody was arrested.

Nope.
Federal Armed Robbery.

[Dave Wood]

I came to the wilderness from the city and when we cooked outside the yellow jackets got into our meat. I didn't know what yellow jackets were so I called them Meat wasps.


Interesting, dont get yourself stung by one of those:o A very powerful sting. I was stung just above the belly button and the pain/swelling didnt subside for a week:eek:

[Mandrik]

Take a look at the prices skyrocket............

http://cgi.ebay.com/RON-PAUL-Silver-Liberty-1-OZ-20-Dollar-norfed-2007_W0QQitemZ320180712873QQihZ011QQcategoryZ39489 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Wow...just...wow. I'm still in shock that I got my on Tuesday and now all this may have happened. I definitely won't be selling mine, though. Still, it's crazy stuff.

[Drknows]

Why would Meetup group members go to this place and identify themselves as Paul supporters?

No one here has ANY IDEA what, if anything, these Liberty Dollar folks have done.

What if it's plain old fraud? What if they were scammers? What if that's why they were arrested? Great, let's associate the campaign with that. You guys are declaring this company the victim of an unfair government crackdown, when you know nothing about them.

I haven't seen their books. Have you? I haven't sat in on their board meetings. Have you? I haven't scrutinized all of their business practices. Have you?

Again, this entire incident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this campaign, and this is NOT a "Ron Paul Grassroots" topic.

Heck, the Barry Bonds indictment has more to do with Ron Paul's campaign than this.

I'm with you man i had no idea so many people here collected medallions. isn't this the same company on QVC all the time?

haha i just find all this funny and amusing,

[Furis]

Wow...just...wow. I'm still in shock that I got my on Tuesday and now all this may have happened. I definitely won't be selling mine, though. Still, it's crazy stuff.

Lucky bastard............. I ordered mine on Monday..........

[terlinguatx]

...

[MO4RonPaul]

I guess the Bonds story is the diversion story for this?

[pcosmar]

I'm with you man i had no idea so many people here collected medallions. isn't this the same company on QVC all the time?

haha i just find all this funny and amusing,

Not so funny for those that were heavily invested.

[Furis]

Not so funny for those that were heavily invested.

Only if they have the paper.


If they have the rounds they are still good to go.

[Drknows]

Not so funny for those that were heavily invested.

Well its just barter money right? really though i had no idea so many here were into this stuff i feel like i just entered the twilight zone or something.

[Broadlighter]

Here's this morning's letter from Bernard Von Nothaus:


Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.


Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect

I just checked the U.S. Treasury's Press Room website and there is nothing on the raid.

My question to the group is, should we trust the words of someone who openly flouts violating the law? Even Dr. Paul, quoting the Constitution with regard to monetary policy, stresses that its the responsibility of Congress to coin money.

[terlinguatx]

...

[DrNoZone]

Here's this morning's letter from Bernard Von Nothaus:



I just checked the U.S. Treasury's Press Room website and there is nothing on the raid.

My question to the group is, should we trust the words of someone who openly flouts violating the law? Even Dr. Paul, quoting the Constitution with regard to monetary policy, stresses that its the responsibility of Congress to coin money.

Man, how many times do we have to school people here on this issue. Yes, Dr. Paul is right about Congress's responsibility, but there is nothing illegal about competing currencies as long as they do not refer to themselves as legal tender or current money. Congress was never granted a monopoly by the Constitution.

[pcosmar]

Well its just barter money right? really though i had no idea so many here were into this stuff i feel like i just entered the twilight zone or something.

Not all Ron Paul's supporters are here.

[Broadlighter]

Man, how many times do we have to school people here on this issue. Yes, Dr. Paul is right about Congress's responsibility, but there is nothing illegal about competing currencies as long as they do not refer to themselves as legal tender or current money. Congress was never granted a monopoly by the Constitution.

That's not how the U.S. Treasury sees it.

Source: http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index.cfm?action=hotitems

Scroll down and read the section on the Liberty Dollar.

You're free to disagree with the U.S. Treasury Department.

[Jordan]

This is going to be interesting. I'm going to make it a point to stop by the offices as much I can to see whats going on.

[Ninja Homer]

My question to the group is, should we trust the words of someone who openly flouts violating the law? Even Dr. Paul, quoting the Constitution with regard to monetary policy, stresses that its the responsibility of Congress to coin money.

The only people who violated the law are those who conducted the raid.

Liberty Dollar competes with the Fed, but they didn't "coin money", or "legal tender". Ron Paul wants to legalize competing currencies, which means that companies like Liberty Dollar can be accepted as "legal tender", rather than just used as barter like it currently is.

Liberty Dollar stands to make a fortune when Ron Paul is president and legalizes competing currencies, which is why I wouldn't believe for a second that they would pull a fast one and flee the country now, when they have been fighting for some of the same things Ron Paul has been fighting for the last 10 years.

[Ninja Homer]

That's not how the U.S. Treasury sees it.

Source: http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index.cfm?action=hotitems

Scroll down and read the section on the Liberty Dollar.

You're free to disagree with the U.S. Treasury Department.

I do. Liberty Dollar has had a lawsuit against the US Mint for a long time now for their statement.

[tnvoter]

This is a like a crazy bad dream if this sort of thing occurred the way it's sounding like it did.

[DrNoZone]

That's not how the U.S. Treasury sees it.

Source: http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/index.cfm?action=hotitems

Scroll down and read the section on the Liberty Dollar.

You're free to disagree with the U.S. Treasury Department.

Yep, I absolutely disagree with them. And that's exactly why the LD was suing the Mint. The LD IS legal and IS Constitutional. Just like all of the other alternate currencies out there.

[Furis]

Yep, I absolutely disagree with them. And that's exactly why the LD was suing the Mint. The LD IS legal and IS Constitutional. Just like all of the other alternate currencies out there.

If it wasn't legal arrests would have been made.

[pcosmar]

This is a like a crazy bad dream if this sort of thing occurred the way it's sounding like it did.

Not good.
It looks like a provocation.

[reduen]

If it wasn't legal arrests would have been made.


Yes, I agree. If the FBI thought that what LD was doing is illeagle, they would have arrested people.

[DrNoZone]

Ok, it's been about as confirmed as I could ask for it to be at this point: Mark, co-host of Free Talk Live, spoke with Bernard about an hour ago and though he is in no shape to be interviewed, he did say that the raid was real and that it did happen.

What a sad day for America. What a sad day for every Liberty Dollar supporter. What a sad day for a man who's life is now ruined.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm with you man i had no idea so many people here collected medallions. isn't this the same company on QVC all the time?

No.


haha i just find all this funny and amusing,

Why is that?

What I find funny and amusing is all those who aren't worried about carrying around paper money whose value is dropping like a lead balloon and who carry around a pocketful of change whose precious metal content is now about equivalent to a small sheet of aluminum foil.

At least the Liberty rounds had real precious metals in them, as opposed to the coins being minted by our government for legal tender.

[Erazmus]

http://libertydollararrest.blogspot.com

http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction

[LibertyEagle]

What a sad day for America. What a sad day for every Liberty Dollar supporter. What a sad day for a man who's life is now ruined.

I'm sure he knew what he was up against. I haven't heard any fat lady singing yet, either.

[DrNoZone]

I'm sure he knew what he was up against. I haven't heard any fat lady singing yet, either.

None of that can downplay the fact that they just took his entire livelihood. As far as I know, this was his only source of income and they just came in and stole every bit of it.

[Drknows]

Well i dont know much about them since i dont invest in barter money or competing currencies. If ron paul makes it legal i might. But i dont see anything wrong with bullion.

But anyway.....


A proposed explanation for the FBI action is fraudulent pricing. One source claims that "...the minted gold, silver, and bronze coins were being sold at markups of between 25% and 400% on the actual value of the precious metals contained therein.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar


Looks to me they were making a HUGE profit.

[Erazmus]

Well i dont know much about them since i dont invest in barter money or competing currencies. If ron paul makes it legal i might. But i dont see anything wrong with bullion.

But anyway.....




Looks to me they were making a HUGE profit.

I'm sorry, I don't read wikipedia. :)

[maggiebott]

This is pure bullshit! Bernard was interviewed and said they were raided, yet he also says in the letter that the sunshine mint was raided and we have confirmed according to poster who called that it never happened.

As I see it right now, I was conned and Bernard has my gold which was paid for over three weeks ago. I smelled a rat when it didn't come in the original order and now this?

[Marc]

Could it be,

That maybe the paper money that they offer didn't have gold or silver to back it up? That's the only thing I can think of as to why you would call it fraud. I mean you don't have to use the coins they sell for anything. They can be collectors who just want to put the coin in a case, and that can't be seen as fraud can it?

Expect Wolf Blitzer and some "experts" to go on how all the Ron Paul supporters were fooled by the idea of the gold standard on CNN soon.

[dddienst]

I believe it was making novelty money with RP's picture on it, but i'm not entirely sure.

It made Coins from Gold, Silver, and Copper and one set of coins has Ron Paul on it.

The thing that make this plausible is the company was in contention with the federal government because even though the company says the coins are not legal tender they push them for barter and maintain a list of companies that will take them in trade for goods and services.

Some people have gotten in trouble because they tried to pay for things as if it was legal tender.

I bought them because of their metal value and collectible value but would never try and pass it off as money.

If this story is true then the coppers have stolen my coppers!

[Broadlighter]

This news has caused me to ask some questions.

Rather than posting them here, I put them up on this Hot Topics thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=37521

I'm just trying to make sense of this.

[LFOD]

Well its just barter money right? really though i had no idea so many here were into this stuff i feel like i just entered the twilight zone or something.

It's the principles, the laws, and the implications of this incident that are interesting to those of us who follow monetary policy in general, and specifically Ron Paul's proposal to allow competing currencies as a way to transition out of a collapsing dollar.

It's not just about gold and silver collectibles. This whole thing raises the question of whether there IS any legal "barter money" that the feds won't swoop and and declare illegal. An aggravating question if you'd prefer to find a way to protect yourself from a dollar crisis, instead of watching your purchasing power go up in smoke.

[richk]

Why would Meetup group members go to this place and identify themselves as Paul supporters?

No one here has ANY IDEA what, if anything, these Liberty Dollar folks have done.

What if it's plain old fraud? What if they were scammers? What if that's why they were arrested? Great, let's associate the campaign with that. You guys are declaring this company the victim of an unfair government crackdown, when you know nothing about them.

I haven't seen their books. Have you? I haven't sat in on their board meetings. Have you? I haven't scrutinized all of their business practices. Have you?

Again, this entire incident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this campaign, and this is NOT a "Ron Paul Grassroots" topic.

Heck, the Barry Bonds indictment has more to do with Ron Paul's campaign than this.


Like it or not, it is very relevant. It is one of the things Dr. Paul is talking about: competing currencies. This outfit has been around for at least 10-15 yrs., and has had legal battles with the Treasury Dept. I have a few of the $20 Ron Paul coins and was expecting some copper coins to be sent to me. I know they have been used as a barter system; I do not see anything wrong with that.

[realitywiz]

Go to www.libertydollar.org. This is their web site.

Liberty Dollar is a legitimate operation. Here's what happened: the government STOLE real money! There was real gold and silver there, lots of it. And those who have the paper liberty dollars are (eh, were) able to redeem those for physical silver or gold.

This tyrannical act is a way to force us to use COUNTERFEIT Federal Reserve Notes even when its artificial "value" is being debased at an accelerating rate. The Liberty Dollar operation has been going on since 1998. The dollar is weakening every day, and it is no coincidence that LD has been raided at a time when people want to protect their purchasing power.

The greater implications are that the government can confiscate anything they want to, for any reason! If you have gold in your home, they may come raid your house. Or even seize money from your bank account. They can do anything! The principle is there, and so they can.

[fsk]

I've been looking around and could not find an answer to this question:

According to the government, what was the official reason for the Liberty Dollar Raid?

In case you're wondering, "The government is run by chowder-heads" (or variants thereof), while accurate, are not an answer to my question.

[torchbearer]

They talk about the warrant a little bit in this Reason magazine blog post:
http://reason.com/blog/show/123543.html

[steph3n]

says fraud in the warrant

[thomaspaine23]

"don't steal the government hates competition...."

although in this case i'd say only the gubment was stealing.

[Melissa]

Actually it says money laundering and mail fraud trying to read the codes right now.

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf

[Smiley Gladhands]

Thanks to Melissa and DrNoZone for posting this link over in Hot Topics:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

That's about as confirmed as it gets.

[Indy Vidual]

Actually it says money laundering and mail fraud trying to read the codes right now.

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf

I think those charges are against customers or associates, not the main company.
Someone's house in South Carolina got raided too.
The people in South Carolina may have been doing something illegal, and the Fed's use it as an excuse to take down the main company.

Guilt by association. :eek:

[nullvalu]

Thanks to Melissa and DrNoZone for posting this link over in Hot Topics:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

That's about as confirmed as it gets.

yep, on the front page as well: "FBI Raids Liberty Dollar" http://www.libertydollar.org/index.php

[Melissa]

I did not get that it was against customers at all sounds like they were trying hard to find a way to take all this companies stuff but I am still reading the US Codes they were taken from

[nullvalu]

yep, on the front page as well: "FBI Raids Liberty Dollar" http://www.libertydollar.org/index.php

Search warrant says they were authorized to obtain customer information.. If you ever had a transaction with Liberty Dollar, they know who you are now..

[Furis]

Search warrant says they were authorized to obtain customer information.. If you ever had a transaction with Liberty Dollar, they know who you are now..

Yep, makes me wonder if they will confiscate everyones stuff. Im on the list and I dont even have anything to show for it....... ordered 2 Ron Pauls Monday...... I highly doubt they got shipped before the raid.......

[nullvalu]

Seizure Warrant says they it was because they're believed to be involved in money laundering and mail fraud.

Judge Richard L Young on the search warrant and Dennis L Howell on the seizure warrant.

[Indy Vidual]

...The greater implications are that the government can confiscate anything they want to, for any reason! If you have gold in your home, they may come raid your house. Or even seize money from your bank account. They can do anything! The principle is there, and so they can.

Those "greater implications" also continue an existing mega-trend of tyranny.
The 'Drug War' and Patriot Act already allow 'them' to do almost anything. :(

[foofighter20x]

Seizure Warrant says they it was because they're believed to be involved in money laundering and mail fraud.

Judge Richard L Young on the search warrant and Dennis L Howell on the seizure warrant.

Ah... Mail fraud... That's the federal government's foot in the door to practically any crime.

LD shoulda shipped UPS or FedEx...

[Syren123]

Here is the big issue I have with this account: the plates aren't stored in Evansville; they're (appropriately) stored at the Sunshine Mint where the coins are made.

The plates were for the paper money, not the coins.

Okay everyone who is laughing or thinking this guy deserved it is missing the point. The point is that while the case was still in litigation, not over yet, still going on, not decided, the gold/silver and everything else in that store was PRIVATE PROPERTY and the feds came in and TOOK IT!!

THEY TOOK PRIVATE PROPERTY!!

That is straight out of Police State 101. It can happen to Liberty Dollar, it can happen to YOU.

[terlinguatx]

...

[foofighter20x]

The plates were for the paper money, not the coins.

Okay everyone who is laughing or thinking this guy deserved it is missing the point. The point is that while the case was still in litigation, not over yet, still going on, not decided, the gold/silver and everything else in that store was PRIVATE PROPERTY and the feds came in and TOOK IT!!

THEY TOOK PRIVATE PROPERTY!!

That is straight out of Police State 101. It can happen to Liberty Dollar, it can happen to YOU.

Winner.

[dircha]

Well, this will be one for the lawyers to sort out, and it probably won't go in this gentleman's favor.

The Department of the Treasury seems to be alleging that the marketing literature for these coins states that these coins are not "current money" or "legal tender", but in the literature they are portrayed implicitly and explicitly as being used for and useful as current money and legal tender.

That is, the government alleges that while the coins are not marketed as current money or legal tender in name, they are marketed as being current money and legal tender in practice, and this is sufficient to violate the law.

This gentleman appears to have been clearly warned and given ample opportunity over the years to desist. It's admirable that he continued to fight on, but it should come as no surprise that there were consequences for his refusal to comply. I hope he is vindicated.

[specsaregood]

Say what you want about the LD people, but does ANYBODY think it is mere coincidence that the seizure warrant (http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf)
was issued THE DAY AFTER Ron Paul took Bernake to task?

Seriously? This is retaliation it is finest (worst).

[Furis]

Say what you want about the LD people, but does ANYBODY think it is mere coincidence that the seizure warrant (http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf)
was issued THE DAY AFTER Ron Paul took Bernake to task?

Seriously? This is retaliation it is finest (worst).

I wouldn't put it past out government....

[Melissa]

and what does it mean that some say this guy knew he was going to get in trouble but the feds waited till there were Ron Paul coins coming out --now is that coincidence

[terlinguatx]

...

[Richandler]

Private property taken in the name of anti-competition against the governement, when the government is in clear violation of Article 1 section 10 of the constitution.

[Syren123]

Well, this will be one for the lawyers to sort out, and it probably won't go in this gentleman's favor.

The Department of the Treasury seems to be alleging that the marketing literature for these coins states that these coins are not "current money" or "legal tender", but in the literature they are portrayed implicitly and explicitly as being used for and useful as current money and legal tender.

That is, the government alleges that while the coins are not marketed as current money or legal tender in name, they are marketed as being current money and legal tender in practice, and this is sufficient to violate the law.

This gentleman appears to have been clearly warned and given ample opportunity over the years to desist. It's admirable that he continued to fight on, but it should come as no surprise that there were consequences for his refusal to comply. I hope he is vindicated.

HELLO?! Again for those of you just tuning in, there in an ONGOING case in Federal Court! It's still in litigation! It's not done yet!! No one is guilty yet!!

[specsaregood]

Not to mention it is the DAY AFTER Ron Paul was on Kudlow discussing his proposal of legalizing alternative, competing currencies on nationwide television!? (Of which I might add, the financial commentators on the show all liked the idea of?)

[Syren123]

Say what you want about the LD people, but does ANYBODY think it is mere coincidence that the seizure warrant (http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf)
was issued THE DAY AFTER Ron Paul took Bernake to task?

Seriously? This is retaliation it is finest (worst).

Holy smoke. I never thought of that. You are probably right on the money. No pun intended.

That is truly sick.

Well, I'm on the Liberty Dollar customer list. Better pack my stuff and wait for the stormtroopers.

[Indy Vidual]

I agree, I'm sick. What's wrong with collecting gold coins or using them to barter. Hell, what's wrong with a competing currency to the monopolistic crap we have now. How is it any different than restaurants here in Texas accepting pesos?

You can eat in Texas with pesos? :eek:
Call the SS and FBI now!

[dircha]

HELLO?! Again for those of you just tuning in, there in an ONGOING case in Federal Court! It's still in litigation! It's not done yet!! No one is guilty yet!!

Hello what?

I said I hoped he is vindicated.

But being cynical, I suspect he will lose.

I was simply reiterating the legal angle presented on the Department of the Treasury's website.

[specsaregood]

Well, I'm on the Liberty Dollar customer list. Better pack my stuff and wait for the stormtroopers.

And so am I. And you know what? These <insert derogatory term> people are HERE in this FORUM, reading this post.

[Syren123]

Hello what?

I said I hoped he is vindicated.

But being cynical, I suspect he will lose.

I was simply reiterating the legal angle presented on the Department of the Treasury's website.

SUSPECT he will lose? He's LOST and the case isn't even decided yet.
It is customary to wait until the case is tried, the verdict is in and delivered to all parties before confiscating one's private property.

[Furis]

The way I see it:

This guy is screwed (maybe us too) if they can't get him on making the money they will create an illegality to put him away.


That is UNLESS Ron is Pres.

[Duckman]

B]How is it any different than restaurants here in Texas accepting pesos?[/B]

The difference is that a liberty dollar, unlike a peso, has actual value. :D

...just trying to make some levity in a really, really bad situation. This is truly an outrage, part of the descent into "guilty until proven innocent" or just plain "guilty cause I said so" mode of modern American Federal government.

[Smiley Gladhands]

LD shoulda shipped UPS or FedEx...

That is kind of ironic, that LD was a competing, private currency to the badly run [quasi]government one, and with the choice between a competing, private mail service and the badly run government one, they chose the latter.

Let that be a lesson to any free-marketers that are thinking about making ironic use of a public service. The free market doesn't take kindly to your doing that, and may come and get you.

:)

[Furis]

private mail service and the badly run government one, they chose the latter.

Actually I have found the USPS to be more efficient and cheaper in most situations. Just my experience though.

[phixonpolitics]

<removed>

[dircha]

SUSPECT he will lose? He's LOST and the case isn't even decided yet.
It is customary to wait until the case is tried, the verdict is in and delivered to all parties before confiscating one's private property.

Suspect.

You know, predict, project? Have a thesaurus handy?

I'm sorry, what on earth is your hang up?

You'll have to forgive me for not sharing your confidence that our dysfunctional legal system will vindicate this man. I certainly didn't endorse what happened. Good grief.

[Mandrik]

And so am I. And you know what? These <insert derogatory term> people are HERE in this FORUM, reading this post.

http://www.mandrik.com/etc/rp/rp-silver.jpg

[maiki]

Actually I have found the USPS to be more efficient and cheaper in most situations. Just my experience though.

I've had mixed experiences. It depends on what you are sending. USPS *Can* be faster, but it is not on average or reliably faster for the same price. USPS has the advantage of delivering to my mail box, which UPS and Fedex can't do.

Also, they are subsidized, so it is not true that they are cheaper, since there is a hidden cost of paying them through my taxes.

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

If the raid took 6 hours, how did a past-tense report on it get released within an hour?

[specsaregood]

http://www.mandrik.com/etc/rp/rp-silver.jpg

LOL, I'd be tempted to take a pic myself but mine is somewhere safe. :)

[Mandrik]

LOL, I'd be tempted to take a pic myself but mine is somewhere safe. :)

Yeah, that's the next step for me. It's the only one I got. I actually bought it to be used as a card holder while playing poker. Now I guess I gotta lock it up somewhere safe.

[sylvania]

Make sure to set up one of these:

[NH4RonPaul]

Um I think this is real - it's on their own website:

http://www.libertydollar.org/

And I think this is in response to the $4.3M we raised. They want to try to prevent us from doing the same on Dec 16th.
They also wanted all your names so they can implicate you in the 'crimes' of owning these precious metals.

This is very serious... and reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

[Furis]

Um I think this is real - it's on their own website:

http://www.libertydollar.org/

And I think this is in response to the $4.3M we raised. They want to try to prevent us from doing the same on Dec 16th.
They also wanted all your names so they can implicate you in the 'crimes' of owning these precious metals.

This is very serious... and reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

We know it is real.

I would say in response to: 4.3million, Ron owning the Fed, and Ron going up in the polls.

And as far as Germany goes, you are correct.

[Mandrik]

They also wanted all your names so they can implicate you in the 'crimes' of owning these precious metals.

Huh? What metal? All I have is this oddly shaped lump of silver. My damn necklace fell in the fireplace. :(

[CCTelander]

I've heard, but not been able to verify, that they also raided the good folks over at eGold. Any additional info would be appreciated.

[Furis]

I've heard, but not been able to verify, that they also raided the good folks over at eGold. Any additional info would be appreciated.

Safe bet its true.

[nullvalu]

I've heard, but not been able to verify, that they also raided the good folks over at eGold. Any additional info would be appreciated.

The search warrant posted on their website was only for the address in Evanston, IN. That's not to say there weren't more..

[Xanax Nation]

http://www.nysun.com/article/66542?page_no=1

[SwanMaiden]

Ok, it's been about as confirmed as I could ask for it to be at this point: Mark, co-host of Free Talk Live, spoke with Bernard about an hour ago and though he is in no shape to be interviewed, he did say that the raid was real and that it did happen.

What a sad day for America. What a sad day for every Liberty Dollar supporter. What a sad day for a man who's life is now ruined.

Ain't it the truth...:(

Man, the IRS and FBI have ruined so many good innocent people's lives, I hate them so much:mad: This is an old story just being repeated again. If you want more examples just watch "America: Freedom to Fascism" or read ""My Battles Against Goliath" by Michael Minns, which has a forward by Ron Paul. I gauruntee you will be horrified and frightened.

[CCTelander]

The search warrant posted on their website was only for the address in Evanston, IN. That's not to say there weren't more..

Yeah, I saw that. A raid on eGold would have required a seperate warrant though, since they're a totally different entity not associated at all with the Liberty Dollar.

[American]

http://www.nysun.com/article/66542?page_no=1

This is a good article, I wonder whar RP is going to do or say. He is mentioned in the several times.

Sure are allot of Jews protesting this campaign..."JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN" I have never really given it a seconds thought but I see it everywhere. Is that just me?

[Trance Dance Master]

Maybe it was raided by this FBI. I know I got my badge.

http://badexample.mu.nu/archives/fbi.JPG

[Tidewise]

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf

[Syren123]

E GOLD:
Here we go! The govt using fear and lies AGAIN to control our money:

http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11462

Child pornographers? Money laundering? Mail fraud? PLEASE. Just one more attempt to limit your options.

[Furis]

Alright who let the Gestapo come play...........

Note: not accusing anyone here of being a fed.

[reaver]

http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/seizure_warrent_20071114.pdf

Same Dennis L. Howell that donated to John Edwards in 04?
Anyone know about the State of Kansas vs. Dennis L. Howell case?

[error]

My name and address is on the list of data seized from Liberty Dollar.

I've tangled with the feds before, on an unrelated matter. It wound up being highly embarrassing for them. The higher ups don't like being publicly embarrassed, and as you probably know, in a bureaucracy shit rolls downhill. And when Members of Congress call your boss's boss and ask what the hell you thought you were doing...

This is what's about to happen to one overzealous prosecutor in Asheville, N.C.

[LibertyEagle]

This is a good article, I wonder whar RP is going to do or say. He is mentioned in the several times.

Sure are allot of Jews protesting this campaign..."JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN" I have never really given it a seconds thought but I see it everywhere. Is that just me?

STOP IT! You are just feeding into it. We have a lot of Jewish supporters. Please remember that.

[LibertyEagle]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - Revised


FBI RAIDS SUNSHINE MINT



RON PAUL Liberty Dollars Amongst $20 Million Worth of Gold and Silver Confiscated



Evansville, Indiana, November 14, 2007 -- In an effort to suppress the movement back to Constitutional money, the FBI raided SUNSHINE MINT and the Liberty Dollar offices in Evansville, Indiana and confiscated over $20 million worth of silver, gold and platinum as well as other assets. Among the materials seized by twelve agents were almost two tons of commemorative Ron Paul Liberty Dollar coins. The FBI also took all files, computers and froze bank accounts.


Based upon Article I, Sections 8 & 10 of the U.S. Constitution, which state: "Congress shall have power to coin money, regulate the value thereof and ... No state shall ... coin money; emit bills of credit; make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts," monetary architect and head of SUNSHINE MINT, Bernard von NotHaus, claims he sought official permission from Edmond C. Moy, Director of the United States Mint, who acknowledged in a letter sent him and CCed to an appropriate U.S. Senator, that the paper certificates issued by SUNSHINE MINT did not violate Section 486 and were thus permissible.

But it seems that this permission did not prevent the raid, after which von NotHaus stated: "We now have no records to even know what was ordered or what the owners of the Liberty Dollars are owed in the event they wish to redeem their silver and gold, nevertheless; we will push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have money made of and backed by gold and silver as defined by the U.S. Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the unconstitutional fiat money currently being emitted as bills of credit by the Federal Reserve System."



But money backed by gold and silver -- what's known collectively as the "gold standard" -- isn't an idea generated only by von NotHaus or within the so-called "Ron Paul Revolution," it's an idea that goes back well before 1967 when former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan argued persuasively in favor of a gold standard, writing: "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. . . . The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard."



Based upon reasoning like this, and the U.S. Constitution, von NotHaus began issuing paper certificate receipts, certificates that illustrate the type of currency the U.S. should have were the People to demand a return to Constitutional money redeemable in gold and silver. But von NotHaus never imagined that an agency of the U.S. government would, as Greenspan phrased it, be so "antagonistic toward the gold standard" here in 2007. But these paper certificates, as well as the gold and silver backing them, are exactly what the FBI has confiscated under the overt or covert direction of statists who many experts, apparently in agreement with Greenspan's essay, claim are stepping up their attempt to suppress a return to Constitutional money. With the recent decline of the dollar and the popularity of Ron Paul -- the only presidential candidate that's advocating a return to sound money, limited government, and abolition of the Federal Reserve System in the event it's not brought back into alignment with the U.S. Constitution -- it looks like the money issue is back on the table.



Among the Liberty Dollars being produced at the SUNSHINE MINT is the new Ron Paul Silver Dollar created to symbolize the national grass-roots movement for a return to sound money and limited government. Many Americans well remember when quarters and dimes were made of real silver and dollar bills were called "Silver Certificates." Silver Certificates were issued by the U.S. Treasury as Constitutional money because the People could turn these in for silver any time they suspected Congress was printing up and spending too much money. But somewhere between 1961 and 1971 (when Nixon closed the gold window making it impossible for foreigners to redeem their holdings of U.S. currency in gold), the last vestige of redeemable, Constitutional money was quietly phased out by the statists, as Alan Greenspan might have said. Many continue to this very day to argue whether this was a wise choice, especially given the current and unprecedented $9 trillion national debt and massive trade deficits now conspiring to destroy the U.S. dollar, now "fiat" currency issued by private bankers as so-called "Federal Reserve Notes" and no longer backed by either gold or silver.



Bernard von NotHaus is calling for a class action suit against the FBI and possibly the statists behind what some believe is an illegal raid: "Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption" says von NotHaus; "We cannot allow the government to steal our money. Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. We did nothing wrong and are entitled to have our property returned. Contact us at http://www.libertydollar.org:80/classaction/index.php to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back."





###





PRESS CONTACT:

Lorraine Sterling, MEC

contact@mecfilms.com
phone number removed

[Richandler]

$20 Million dollars taken! That's criminal in every sense.

[Micahyah]

Well, this is why we are in a rEVOLution.

The stakes are high.

[Mark]

Well, this is why we are in a rEVOLution.

The stakes are high.

Due to the consequences of further progression
on the path we're on, they don't get much higher
on this earth.

[82ndVET4RP]

More news http://www.nolanchart.com/article291.html

[rodent]

This is a serious question and a possible arguing point.

Chuck E. Cheese's distributes tokens and coins that are valid currencies backed by cheap Chinese prizes and/or paper tickets. In essence, it's a commodity backed currency. If they are raiding the Ron Paul Liberty Dollar outfit, then why aren't they raiding every establishment (like Chuck E. Cheese's) that has an indirection on top of the Federal Reserve notes? This includes other state highway road systems as well. Furthermore, all online gaming systems with currencies are now subject to problems, since virtual currencies have exchange rates with real currencies now.

[Indy Vidual]

Chuck E.'s young customers don't use the money to hedge against a falling dollar. :D

[AceNZ]

From http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm :


But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also
been confiscated.

This is why paper money is such a bad, bad idea. The government regularly steps in to make it worthless.

eMoney has the same problem -- remember how eGold was raided a while back? I think it was for some of the same reasons they gave for Liberty Dollar -- money laundering, etc. Basically what the government is saying is that privacy when it comes to money is a bad thing.

Hard money is the only real money. Reject all paper currencies!

[rodent]

Chuck E.'s young customers don't use the money to hedge against a falling dollar. :D

I theory, you could hedge against a falling dollar with Chuck E. Cheese tokens. If you buy tokens and hold the tokens, the value of the non-Chinese toys goes up. If the dollar goes down, and the tokens can purchase resellable toys, the toys will have a higher dollar value than they were originally sold with. If China lifts the peg, you have a fortune. The tokens are essentially backed by prizes or tickets, so they do have real value.

[FrankRep]

Money made of paper and plastic = GOOD

Money made of Gold and Silver = BAD

That is all.

good day

[rodent]

Money made of paper and plastic = GOOD

Money made of Gold and Silver = BAD

That is all.

good day

I am so dumb.

FRANK REP FOR FED CHIEF! FRANK REP FOR FED CHIEF! FRANK REP FOR FED CHIEF! FRANK REP FOR FED CHIEF! FRANK REP FOR FED CHIEF!

[Indy Vidual]

I've had enough debates for today, but this one is the cheesiest. :p

[rodent]

I've had enough debates for today, but this one is the cheesiest. :p

It's late, but I am seeing a lot of parallels between Chuck E. Cheese and the Federal Government. They have these puppets that say stuff that the people in power want them to say, and all the kids sing along to the tune that the puppets say.

Chuck E. Cheese prints its own money, redeemable in real content.

Chuck E. Cheese has a genuine economy in which a central bank actually sets the value of the tokens, the token to ticket ratios, and the number of tokens in circulation. They also set exchange rates.

[wgadget]

Ok, it's been about as confirmed as I could ask for it to be at this point: Mark, co-host of Free Talk Live, spoke with Bernard about an hour ago and though he is in no shape to be interviewed, he did say that the raid was real and that it did happen.

What a sad day for America. What a sad day for every Liberty Dollar supporter. What a sad day for a man who's life is now ruined.

No! This is a GREAT DAY for America...Ron Paul will be asked tons and tons of questions by the media (when they FINALLY catch on to this story), Ron Paul will EDUCATE Americans on the value of their money, and Ron Paul will come across as INTELLIGENT, INFORMED, and THE MAN AMERICA NEEDS.

[wgadget]

And during the Great Conversation, someone oughta ask WHY *pesos* are an accepted form of currency. This should be interesting....

[wgadget]

Like it or not, it is very relevant. It is one of the things Dr. Paul is talking about: competing currencies. This outfit has been around for at least 10-15 yrs., and has had legal battles with the Treasury Dept. I have a few of the $20 Ron Paul coins and was expecting some copper coins to be sent to me. I know they have been used as a barter system; I do not see anything wrong with that.

What the Feds don't like is that people can get away without paying taxes on them. I'm sure that's what's bugging them.

[error]

The question is, why don't they raid the Federal Reserve? That's where all the money laundering, wire fraud and mail fraud is taking place.

[Chester Copperpot]

Chuck E.'s young customers don't use the money to hedge against a falling dollar. :D

Yes, this is the real answer... seriously.

[Chester Copperpot]

The question is, why don't they raid the Federal Reserve? That's where all the money laundering, wire fraud and mail fraud is taking place.

Great Idea... Theyre the largest counterfeitres in the country.. and while we're at it lets have the IRS raid them too, because GASP, the Federal Reserve doesnt pay any income tax on its profits! Imagine that..

[FrankRep]

https://tips.fbi.gov/

:D

Report them

[Jordan]

I've heard, but not been able to verify, that they also raided the good folks over at eGold. Any additional info would be appreciated.

That is true however that happened a few years ago. E-Gold was a money laundering safe haven, but it was also a great place for people who were tired of Paypal locking accounts.

[Dave Wood]

Has anyone noticed how SILENT the MSM is about this today?

If you google search it....comes up with The new York Sun and a couple of other smaller pubs, thats it.

Keep in mind, we are dealing with a raid that confiscated at least $20 MILLION dollars worth of goods and it happened early Wednesday morning.....plenty of time for the story to blossom.

Nothing, nada, zip!

I really wish I had never caught on to all of this. Sometimes it IS better to live in ignorance.:(

[constituent]

...

[Chester Copperpot]

Anything viewed as a threat to the banking system is dealt with harshly..lLiberty Dollars, the Hunt Bros, President Kennedy, Lincoln, Garfield, and Mc Kinley..

[Trance Dance Master]

what's wrong w/ clean money?

have you ever seen a study of what is actually crawling around on that stuff?
"Money laundering" is only a crime because the government hates competition.

[weatherbill]

Great Idea... Theyre the largest counterfeitres in the country.. and while we're at it lets have the IRS raid them too, because GASP, the Federal Reserve doesnt pay any income tax on its profits! Imagine that..

They don't have any "profits" becasue they can claim they are in debt becasue we don't pay any principle on the debt, just the interest on the debt.....LOL

however, we know the real story, they collect over 400 billion a year off our backs and that money goes into the pockets of the bankers(RR 1982 Grace Commission report)............what a scam

[Smiley Gladhands]

I theory, you could hedge against a falling dollar with Chuck E. Cheese tokens. If you buy tokens and hold the tokens, the value of the non-Chinese toys goes up. If the dollar goes down, and the tokens can purchase resellable toys, the toys will have a higher dollar value than they were originally sold with. If China lifts the peg, you have a fortune. The tokens are essentially backed by prizes or tickets, so they do have real value.

I smell a kids' book!.....Mommy? Why Does Johnny Save His Tokens? Please, somone with kids' book-writing ability write this. I wanna buy a copy and get Ron Paul to sign it. And then I want it hand-delivered to Bernanke's house, with caramel on top so he can EAT THEM APPLES!

:)

[torchbearer]

The question is, why don't they raid the Federal Reserve? That's where all the money laundering, wire fraud and mail fraud is taking place.

It's also unconstitutional...at least, its governmental part is... the private part is criminal... and fraudulent. These people deserve life in prison if not death for what they have done to our country.

[denvervoipguru]

Make this congressman earn his paycheck and protect the rights of these people...they were burglarized!!!

www.ellsworth.house.gov

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0D7s4MfbQE







He was also recently interviewed on Freedom Watch by Judge Napolitano:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufHiZKKh9Hw#t=27m0s

[MelissaWV]

This is you doing that thing we discussed.

[low preference guy]

This is you doing that thing we discussed.

It shows you he is a super badass who doesn't care what you think. It gives him an awesome thrill.

[MelissaCato]

I can't believe this happened to the Liberty Dollar. I remember the night dude brought a car load to our meetup, I never in my life seen such pretty n shiney gold, copper and silver coins .. I had a tear in my eyes because Ron Paul was on almost all them .. I still can't get over the feeling I had looking at all the gold, silver and copper all sprawled out in stacks on the tables. It felt like Fort Knox at the meetup. LOL

That was the night everyone withdrew their money outta the bank in 100 dollar bills and rubber stamped Ron Paul for President 2008 on all the bills .. total was about $25,000.00 then deposit the next morning. Those were the days ..... lol

I'm just glad to be a part of it all. ;o) I love you guys !!!