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John F Kennedy III
04-23-2012, 05:38 PM
53 Percent Of All Young College Graduates In America Are Either Unemployed Or Underemployed

The Economic Collapse
April 23, 2012

If you are in college right now, you will most likely either be unemployed or working a job that only requires a high school degree when you graduate. The truth is that the U.S. economy is not coming anywhere close to producing enough jobs for the hordes of new college graduates that are entering the workforce every year. In 2011, 53 percent of all Americans with a bachelor’s degree under the age of 25 were either unemployed or underemployed. Millions upon millions of young college graduates feel like the system has totally failed them. They worked hard in school all their lives, they went into huge amounts of debt in order to get the college education that they were told they “must have” in order to get a good job, but after graduation they found that there were only a handful of good jobs for the huge waves of college graduates that were entering the “real world”. All over America, college graduates can be found waiting tables, flipping burgers and working behind the register at retail stores. Unfortunately, the employment picture in America is not going to get significantly better any time soon.

All over the United States, “middle class jobs” are being replaced by “low income jobs” and young college graduates are being hurt by this transition more than almost anyone else. Massive numbers of young college graduates are now working jobs that do not even require a high school degree. Some of the statistics about young college graduates are absolutely astounding. The following is from a recent CNBC article….


In the last year, they were more likely to be employed as waiters, waitresses, bartenders and food-service helpers than as engineers, physicists, chemists and mathematicians combined (100,000 versus 90,000). There were more working in office-related jobs such as receptionist or payroll clerk than in all computer professional jobs (163,000 versus 100,000). More also were employed as cashiers, retail clerks and customer representatives than engineers (125,000 versus 80,000).

Can you imagine working really hard all throughout high school and college and always getting good grades and then ending up as a bartender?

Sadly, many hard working college graduates cannot seem to find a decent job no matter how hard they try. The following is one example from the CNBC article mentioned above….


“I don’t even know what I’m looking for,” says Michael Bledsoe, who described months of fruitless job searches as he served customers at a Seattle coffeehouse. The 23-year-old graduated in 2010 with a creative writing degree.

Initially hopeful that his college education would create opportunities, Bledsoe languished for three months before finally taking a job as a barista, a position he has held for the last two years. In the beginning he sent three or four resumes day. But, Bledsoe said, employers questioned his lack of experience or the practical worth of his major. Now he sends a resume once every two weeks or so.

Have you ever been there?

Have you ever sent out resumes week after week, month after month, only to get absolutely nowhere?

Many recent college graduates are being advised by “career counselors” that they should go back and “get more education”.

But is that really the answer? The truth is that there are lots and lots of unemployed and underemployed Americans with advanced degrees too. For example, a recent Business Insider article profiled a law school graduate named Erin that is actually on food stamps….


She remains on food stamps so her social life suffers. She can’t afford a car, so she has to rely on the bus to get around Austin, Texas, where she lives. And currently unable to pay back her growing pile of law school debt, Gilmer says she wonders if she will ever be able to pay it back.

“That has been really hard for me,” she says. “I have absolutely no credit anymore. I haven’t been able to pay loans. It’s scary, and it’s a hard thing to think you’re a lawyer but you’re impoverished. People don’t understand that most lawyers actually aren’t making the big money.”

But what “more education” will do is that it will get you into even more debt. Student loan debt can be one of the cruelest forms of debt, because it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

As I wrote about a few days ago, total student loan debt in the United States recently surpassed the one trillion dollar mark. Students keep on racking up student loan debt in the hope that they will find “the American Dream” at the end of the rainbow.

Sadly, many students do everything “right” and still end up in the middle of a nightmare.

But it is not just young college graduates that are suffering in this economy.

As I wrote about a while back, the U.S. economy is not producing enough jobs for anyone at this point.

The mainstream media keeps telling us that unemployment is going down, but the truth is that the percentage of working age Americans that are employed is not increasing. In March 2010, 58.5 percent of all working age Americans had a job. In March 2012, 58.5 percent of all working age Americans had a job.

Does that sounds like improvement?

Of course not.

Unlike what we have seen after every other recession in the post-World War II era, the employment to population ratio is not bouncing back, and that is really bad news.

The main reason for this is because of the bad economy, but also it is important to understand that we are transitioning away from an “employment economy”.

Today, most large corporations view employees as very expensive “liabilities”. The goal for most large corporations is to minimize those “liabilities” as much as possible. In fact, these days some large corporations lay off huge numbers of workers even while they are making huge profits at the same time.

Once upon a time, Henry Ford made a conscious decision to pay his workers enough money so that they could afford to buy the cars that they were making.

Today, most corporations simply do not care about the living standards of their workers. They simply want to maximize profits to the fullest extent possible.

Many small businesses would like to hire more workers, but the federal government has made hiring workers so complicated and so expensive that it has become exceedingly difficult to make a profit on a worker. Most of the time it is simply easier to try to do more with what you already have.

The number of Americans that can work a job (“just over broke”) and still live “the American Dream” is steadily shrinking. Increasingly, the financial rewards in our economy are being funneled to the very top of organizations and workers are finding that their living standards continue to slowly go down.

At corporations that belong to the Standard & Poor’s 500 stock index, CEOs earn380 times what the average worker makes at those companies. In 1980, CEOs only earned 42 times what the average worker made at those companies.

A fundamental shift is happening in our economy and it is not going to be reversed any time soon. Workers are not valued at most companies anymore. No matter how much of yourself you give to your company, when the day comes that you become “disposable”, you will be cast aside as so much rubbish.

That is why I try to encourage people to start their own businesses and to be their own bosses. There is no job security anymore. The job that you have today could be gone tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the federal government is actually spending your money to train foreign workers to take our jobs. The following is from a recent Daily Caller article….


While the president has been urging “insourcing,” the government has been sending money to the Philippines to train foreign workers for jobs in English-speaking call centers.

According to New York Democratic Rep. Tim Bishop and North Carolina Republican Rep. Walter Jones, this is unacceptable and “shocking.”

The pair are calling on the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) to immediately suspend what is known as the Job Enabling English Proficiency (JEEP) program.

Can you believe that?

Over and over again, our politicians talk about the need to keep jobs in the United States and then they go out and do things that have the exact opposite effect.

It is truly maddening.

So what are the hordes of American workers that cannot find jobs supposed to do?

Well, one thing we are definitely seeing is a huge rise in the number of Americans that are dependent on the government.

For example, at the end of the Reagan administration the ratio of workers on Social Security disability to active workers was about 2 percent.

Today, it is over 6 percent.

During the first four months of 2012 alone, 539,000 more Americans were added to the Social Security disability rolls and another 725,000 submitted new applications.

Another federal program that is experiencing explosive growth is food stamps.

Last year, one out of every seven Americans was on food stamps, and the Congressional Budget Office is projecting that the number of people on food stamps will continue to grow through 2014.

It is so sad to see what is happening to America. Our economy is being dismantled all around us and the future looks incredibly bleak.

Right now there are millions upon millions of Americans that are sitting at home wallowing in despair. They don’t understand why nobody will hire them and they are rapidly running out of options.

The following is a comment that a reader left on one of my recent articles about the middle class….


I cannot believe my present situation…

I worked hard in school and college so that I could escape the low income uneducated mess I grew up in.

I made all the correct decisions with my career, finances, etc. I cannot figure out how I got to where I am at now.

In late 2008 I was laid off in the IT field. I was a go-getter, and I didn’t let anyone tell me the economy would make it difficult to find a job. I had another within 4 weeks.

Was laid off from that job last year. I qualified for unemployment, but then my employer decides to bring a bunch of lawyers and fight my eligibility. After I won again, they appealed again. I finally couldn’t afford to keep paying attorney fees. I finally lost the appeal. I had to pay all that money back.

I’m still trying to find a job in my field. Being the go-getting I am, I immediately took a job waiting tables which amounted to a 75% pay-cut.

I had saved 6 months of expenses and that is completely dry. I have completely drained my retirement and savings. Still cannot find a livable wage job after almost a decade in my field.

Things are slowly going into default and it feels utterly hopeless and stressful. My pristine credit rating is gone, my savings and everything I worked for is gone. I haven’t missed a payment on my mortgage, but it is coming. I can’t cut anything more than I already have.

I just can’t figure out how this could have happened to me. I played by the rules and made all the right choices. I skipped vacations and time off to prove I was a good worker and had what it took to be a valuable employee.

I really am just at a loss at this point. I’m single and have no family. This is really make-or-break for me. I have no fallback plan. The feeling of failure is just gut-wrenching.

Please say a prayer for that reader and for all of the other hard working Americans out there that are desperate to find a job.

If you are at the end of your rope, please do not give up. Even in the darkest moments, there is always a way to turn things around if you will just keep on fighting.

Sadly, way too many people are giving up on life because of the economy. In Europe, economic conditions have deteriorated so badly that there has been a dramatic increase in suicides. The following is from a recent article in the New York Times….


The economic downturn that has shaken Europe for the last three years has also swept away the foundations of once-sturdy lives, leading to an alarming spike in suicide rates. Especially in the most fragile nations like Greece, Ireland and Italy, small-business owners and entrepreneurs are increasingly taking their own lives in a phenomenon some European newspapers have started calling “suicide by economic crisis.”

When the next major economic downturn happens in the United States, we will probably see a similar thing happen here too.

But people need to realize that our lives are not about how much stuff we own.

Even if every single thing is taken away from you and you are left with nothing that does not mean that your life is over.

Even if you have not been able to find a job for years, that does not mean that you should give up.

In life, everyone gets knocked down.

But unless you are dead, there is always a way to get things turned around in a more positive direction.

One thing that I have learned in life is that you must never, ever, ever, ever give up.

The years ahead are going to be really hard for the global economy, but that doesn’t mean that they have to be horrible years for you.

The years ahead can be the very best years of your entire life, but that will never happen if you decide to simply give up.


article here:
http://www.infowars.com/53-percent-of-all-young-college-graduates-in-america-are-either-unemployed-or-underemployed/

original article here:
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/53-percent-of-all-young-college-graduates-in-america-are-either-unemployed-or-underemployed

dannno
04-23-2012, 06:04 PM
Finally, a thread fitting of this pic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/xw2kz.jpg

John F Kennedy III
04-23-2012, 06:09 PM
Finally, a thread fitting of this pic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/xw2kz.jpg

YES! I knew I had set it up perfectly :D

QueenB4Liberty
04-23-2012, 06:13 PM
I'm glad I'm not part of those statistics. :)

John F Kennedy III
04-23-2012, 07:08 PM
I'm glad I'm not part of those statistics. :)

Me either. I dropped out :D

NoOneButPaul
04-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Im 24 credit hours from getting my bachelors and I really don't feel like it's worth the money right now.

RickyJ
04-23-2012, 07:58 PM
I'm glad I'm not part of those statistics. :)


Me either. I dropped out :D

Yeah, the only way you couldn't be part of those statistics is to either not be young or not be a college graduate. I am a college graduate but still don't qualify for these statistics since I am a 46. I imagine the employment rate for recent older college graduates isn't much better than for the younger ones.

WilliamShrugged
04-23-2012, 08:10 PM
Yeah only did a semester myself. Been working since then.

spudea
04-23-2012, 08:32 PM
As a recent college grad, glad to be in the 47 percent. While the situation is tragic, the writer seems to come from the occupy wallstreet crowd, ie wanting even more goverment involvement to guarantee he will have a job. As for the readers story, sounds like he blew through all his savings really quick, like he was expecting and felt entitled to another job quickly, therefore he didn't make the necessary sacrifices required.

A college degree doesn't entitle you or guarantee you anything.

Son of Detroit
04-23-2012, 08:48 PM
“I don’t even know what I’m looking for,” says Michael Bledsoe, who described months of fruitless job searches as he served customers at a Seattle coffeehouse. The 23-year-old graduated in 2010 with a creative writing degree.

Is he really that surprised???

QuickZ06
04-23-2012, 08:49 PM
Finally, a thread fitting of this pic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/xw2kz.jpg

OMFG, epic!

DerailingDaTrain
04-23-2012, 08:55 PM
He got a degree in creative writing and he can't find a job? Boo hoo. Pick a major that isn't useless. The world needs plenty of engineers right now.

oyarde
04-23-2012, 10:26 PM
I do not know what to think about the creative writing degree , fathom he missed his chance by not getting employment when the health bill was written , in the future , creative writing oppurtunities could become more limited . As for the 53 % , I am aware of that .What I would really like to have , and do not , is an avg of the student debt loan amount owed and an avg income on those that are working the menial jobs...

VoluntaryAmerican
04-23-2012, 10:52 PM
He got a degree in creative writing and he can't find a job? Boo hoo. Pick a major that isn't useless. The world needs plenty of engineers right now.

My thoughts exactly.

As someone who thought about getting a creative writing degree... i promptly switched to a journalism degree once I realized it was a better option.

Don Lapre
04-23-2012, 11:16 PM
He got a degree in creative writing and he can't find a job? Boo hoo.

haha

Yes.

Sorry, son. Stupid is supposed to hurt.


Further, most of these young pinheads voted for our current @sshole, right?


Once again... haha

oyarde
04-23-2012, 11:32 PM
haha

Yes.

Sorry, son. Stupid is supposed to hurt.


Further, most of these young pinheads voted for our current @sshole, right?


Once again... haha I hope none of them vote , get me an email list of graduates and I will send out a mass e mail advertising free lolipops etc , twenty miles away from the voting booth on election days. ;)

oyarde
04-23-2012, 11:34 PM
Actually, things headed where they are, he should be glad to have his coffee job ...

DamianTV
04-24-2012, 01:40 AM
Well, that 53% certainly doesnt appear to change at all with age. At least from my perspective.

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-24-2012, 02:02 AM
The ignorance of some comments here. Why are we making a mockery of this person's degree? Some people pursue their interests and dreams. They shouldn't be required to abandon their niche, interests, skills, or dreams, just in order to conform to a society that believes he should pursue what they feel is best. If the government was acting according to their appropriate role, and being responsible, the private sector would be prosperous and capable of sustaining his career field. He's not in the wrong, we as a nation are in the wrong for allowing it to progress to this point.

thoughtomator
04-24-2012, 03:04 AM
as for the guy with the "creative writing" degree... if it were worth the paper it were printed on, he could creatively write himself into a job... obviously they didn't teach him shit

As for the general situation, this is pretty much exactly what I've been telling my students - I teach life skills on an informal basis to 20-somethings, who almost universally didn't get those skills from parents or educators over two decades plus of life. They can go the route prescribed for them by TPTB, but there's nothing at the end of that road but broken promises.

Don Lapre
04-24-2012, 04:10 AM
The ignorance of some comments here. Why are we making a mockery of this person's degree?

I'm not mocking his degree.

If he wanted to learn creative writing - and forked over big dollars to do so, more power to him.

But being flustered and bewildered when you graduate with said degree and can't find a job that will give you a living wage is... I'm sorry, quite humorous.

You deal in reality if you are an adult.

The adult reality is that right now in America, a degree in creative writing is probably going to leave you struggling for work.

azxd
04-24-2012, 08:33 AM
He got a degree in creative writing and he can't find a job? Boo hoo. Pick a major that isn't useless. The world needs plenty of engineers right now.Major understatement ... We're producing 400 per year, and China is producing 200,000 (numbers approximate).
Degrees in Medical, Engineering, and Science will always lead to employment, IF the individual does their part ... Nothing is handed out, you have to work to get those jobs.

But hey ....................................
Obama is after a voting block !!!
This has NOTHING to do with education, and the writer is finally getting paid (probably under the table) to put name to pen, for this administration ... No name, just a blog entry, and a request to tweet the article LOL

azxd
04-24-2012, 08:37 AM
The ignorance of some comments here. Why are we making a mockery of this person's degree? Some people pursue their interests and dreams. They shouldn't be required to abandon their niche, interests, skills, or dreams, just in order to conform to a society that believes he should pursue what they feel is best. If the government was acting according to their appropriate role, and being responsible, the private sector would be prosperous and capable of sustaining his career field. He's not in the wrong, we as a nation are in the wrong for allowing it to progress to this point.Reality is not ignorance.

Some degrees just have little to no demand whether the economy is up/down.
If your skillset is not needed, regardless of how it is obtained, it is economically worthless.

MRoCkEd
04-24-2012, 08:40 AM
He got a degree in creative writing and he can't find a job? Boo hoo. Pick a major that isn't useless. The world needs plenty of engineers right now.

+1

There are plenty of jobs if you pick the right major or trade.

Philhelm
04-24-2012, 10:21 AM
What a bleak world it would be if everyone were an engineer.

The real issue is that people have been sold on the idea that they must have a degree and we are suffering from degree inflation, lowering the value of most degrees. Furthermore, employers often require a degree, any degree, to do jobs that should not really have such a requirement. Not to mention that many children have been sold on the idea that they should do what they want to do, and that they can do anything.

DerailingDaTrain
04-24-2012, 10:44 AM
The ignorance of some comments here. Why are we making a mockery of this person's degree? Some people pursue their interests and dreams. They shouldn't be required to abandon their niche, interests, skills, or dreams, just in order to conform to a society that believes he should pursue what they feel is best. If the government was acting according to their appropriate role, and being responsible, the private sector would be prosperous and capable of sustaining his career field. He's not in the wrong, we as a nation are in the wrong for allowing it to progress to this point.

Come on man...really? Everyone knows that if you get a degree in drama, creative writing, or anything like that you're going to have a really hard time making money in today's world. It's better to just not do it if your object is surviving.

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-24-2012, 12:46 PM
Come on man...really? Everyone knows that if you get a degree in drama, creative writing, or anything like that you're going to have a really hard time making money in today's world. It's better to just not do it if your object is surviving.

The reality isn't what bothers me. The mentality of where we feel obligated to tell him he should do something he doesn't wanna' do (or unaware if he's even good at), is bothersome. Honestly, I fail to see the logic behind more labor, and less creativity in this world. This world needs more people who understands humanity, and thinks on a deeper level. It doesn't need simply more people who cannot think about what truly matters.

DamianTV
04-24-2012, 01:07 PM
What a bleak world it would be if everyone were an engineer.

The real issue is that people have been sold on the idea that they must have a degree and we are suffering from degree inflation, lowering the value of most degrees. Furthermore, employers often require a degree, any degree, to do jobs that should not really have such a requirement. Not to mention that many children have been sold on the idea that they should do what they want to do, and that they can do anything.

What an even bleaker world it would be if everyone had degrees in Banking!

And you had a very critical word in your statement that is 100% dead on. But its not the word everyone thinks it is. The word was SOLD. Selling ideas. I think everyone here knows that our education system is in shambles. So even if you pay a bunch of money (again, keyword: SOLD) to get an expensive piece of paper, it does not make a person an Engineer. Or a Doctor, Creative Writer, or Qualified Burger Flipper. Everyone knows the pieces of paper are not a true reflection of the capacity of a recently graduated student to do a job assigned to them. Thus, they arent being hired. Not all for that very reason, but it is a contributing factor.

School is being treated as a business. But there is no competition to incentivize th Quality of the Education. Oh sure you have to pay out big bucks to go to school. But how many Federal Subsidies are educational facilities being provided to NOT TEACH? They want them to not teach? Sure they do! If you dont get enough students going to your school because no one wants to go, then the Govt subsidises your school for mediocre performance. So no matter what you do, there is no incentive to create a better "product" (read: Student) than another school because the employees of the school still get their paychecks.

But it gets worse. Many of us know that schools are abused to not be facilities of learning. They are Indoctrination Centres. What they Teach is totally different than what ever the cirriculum says. Welcome to Math 101. Today you will learn the importance of "the teacher is always right", "you arent smart unless someone else says you're smart", and most importantly "do what I tell you to do because I have a Title". What the fuck does any of that actually have to do with Math? And YES, you CAN teach anyone (not just "children") these lessons. Thus, we spend all our time enforcing rules to get paychecks in Math 101 and forget that Math 101 is about MATH, not OBEDIENCE.

Most of the students recognize this as well. They might not put quite as many words to describe the aforementioned problems with our educational system, yet still express that there is a problem by simply stating "School Sucks!", and they're right.

John F Kennedy III
04-24-2012, 04:14 PM
Finally, a thread fitting of this pic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/xw2kz.jpg

This is seriously the funniest pic I have seen on here. I still laugh every time I look at it. I only I could get away with putting it in my sig...I'd gladly pay the $20 just to be able to do it.

MelissaWV
04-24-2012, 04:46 PM
Screw it.

dannno
04-24-2012, 04:50 PM
Come on man...really? Everyone knows that if you get a degree in drama, creative writing, or anything like that you're going to have a really hard time making money in today's world. It's better to just not do it if your object is surviving.

In what day's world were the arts a good money maker?

The supply and demand of art is just like anything else. If you have a lot of artists then you have more art. If people value art very highly and those people who value the art are producing enough for themselves and for artists, then the artists will be supported.

It all comes down to production, because there is pretty much an unlimited demand for most things, even art. I would love to go get some cool paintings and photographs that are in the $350-$1,000 range if I had the extra money. But first we have to produce more. In order to do that, we have to get government out of the way and lower taxes.

So I wouldn't blame the people who are more prone to getting into art, except that people should be realistic and explain to them that they are probably going to end up doing a service or retail job while doing their hobbies on the side unless they happen to make a break-through into the industry.

dannno
04-24-2012, 05:00 PM
This is seriously the funniest pic I have seen on here. I still laugh every time I look at it. I only I could get away with putting it in my sig...I'd gladly pay the $20 just to be able to do it.

There's another one that is a series of photos, ending with the one above but with a different caption that I want to post but I can't find it..

It shows something like this...

Obama giving a speech and you hear a "knock, knock"

Obama says, "Who's there?"

"Biden"

"Now Joe..."

Then it shows the pic with Clinton coming in, "Just Bidin' my time until your daughters turn 18!!"

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-24-2012, 05:09 PM
I think you have a fundamental disconnect with what people are saying.

Let's assume for a moment that this person absolutely adores writing. They may, in fact, be a very talented and budding author. Now, option one was to go to college and spend years studying every aspect of literature and the writing process, with maybe a class or two that touches on getting published, while writing overly structured pieces that will likely never branch into any satisfactory composition --- all for the low, low price of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.

Option two was to go to college for some unrelated but "steady" sort of degree that would be flexible enough to become gainfully employed as he continues to write in his spare time, perhaps even finding inspiration at work --- all for the low, low price of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans (but with more of a chance of a net gain on the investment).

Option three was to follow his dream without spending tens of thousands of dollars to do it, perhaps looking up free advice or low-cost courses online. Sure, he would not have a degree in creative writing, but how many of your favorite authors do? Actually working, deciding you don't need a degree, and having the time to pursue your dreams? PRICELESS.

You have decided that people saying his degree is useless are saying he should give up creative writing. What I am saying, and what many others likely are, is that the degree adds nothing to the desired field of employment. There are very few writing jobs that care whether or not you have a degree, and publishers are looking for what they can sell... not the educational pedigree of the author. If you are going to spend so much money on college, you want the degree to help you make that money back and then some. "Creative Writing" is not a degree that will do that.

I have no such disconnect. I object to this mentality that anyone's degree is worthless, because it's equivalent to saying that what they enjoy or devote themselves to is worthless. I figured a Ron Paul supporting community would understand this, considering that many people consider things like "Philosophy" to be a worthless degree. Even though, nearly everything about us as a movement, and Ron Paul are deeply part of philosophy in numerous ways. A very philosophically adept crowd exists in his support, hence, confirming my argument.

But, let's cut the bull. If these people's degree's are worthless, i consider you people worthless. The issue is a society of this mentality, not these career fields and decisions.

John F Kennedy III
04-24-2012, 05:15 PM
There's another one that is a series of photos, ending with the one above but with a different caption that I want to post but I can't find it..

It shows something like this...

Obama giving a speech and you hear a "knock, knock"

Obama says, "Who's there?"

"Biden"

"Now Joe..."

Then it shows the pic with Clinton coming in, "Just Bidin' my time until your daughters turn 18!!"

Lol. Stop the presses everyone. Forum activity will not be allowed to continue until we find this!

MelissaWV
04-24-2012, 05:22 PM
Screw it.

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-24-2012, 05:25 PM
Yeah... you are still equating "art" with "a degree in art." You are equating a "career field" with a degree. These are the disconnects I was talking about before you decided to skip down the path of being insulting.

There are a multitude of careers which do not require a degree. Some of those require pure talent, and some of those require skills that one learns on the job. In either of those cases, a degree is a waste of time. You do not have to pay anything to have talent, though you may want to seek out a mentor or some guidance in order to develop your talent to its fullest. Nothing in what I just said suggests that a rigid path towards a degree would benefit someone who is looking to make a career out of their talent. Skills learned on the job are just that, and no amount of book-learning will prepare you for it to your future employer's satisfaction. College is just time that you could have spent gaining job experience, in that case.

I don't know why you are so utterly insulted at this. There is cost/benefit analysis involved with the plunge to go to a traditional university and go into debt. Paying oodles of money and going into debt for a degree in a field where the people who excel most NEVER HAVE AN "ARTS" DEGREE does not seem like it's a good idea. I seriously doubt that getting a Creative Writing degree made this guy more creative, or even a better writer. What, then, do you call spending large amounts of money to not achieve your goal? Some might call that a waste....

You still put forth a great deal of effort, in the same interest. Which is precisely my point that you have a disconnect with. You invest into both, as such, society is the issue. I consider a waste, a society that believes we should classify which interest is worthless.

MelissaWV
04-24-2012, 05:44 PM
Screw it.

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-24-2012, 08:02 PM
So in your world... what? You force businesses to employ people regardless of what field their degree is in? Or force artists to all have degrees? Or make sure that every Creative Writing graduate makes the same amount as every Civil Engineering graduate? There is an economic reality out there. I'm not sure how you've leapt from that, to condemning society for saying that an artist with a degree does not automatically make oodles more than an artist without, or at least enough to cover their loans.

If you don't understand the idea of return on an investment, or you just reject it, then why even bother? You're still saying society has decided an "interest" is worthless. No. Society laughs at people who get a degree in Creative Writing. You either have that gift, or you don't, and four years and tens of thousands of dollars in debt is not likely to fix you if you are unable to write to begin with.

Actually, no. That's not what I'm stating at all, but it doesn't surprise me you would jump to such a judgmental and preposterous conclusion. This entire mentality of proclaiming that someone else's life work, niche, and interests is "worthless" is simply sickening. It breeds yet again, an elitist mentality, a social status, a class of "worth." Where people may proclaim that someone is worth more or less, simply due to their degree. People immediately say that someone else's degree is worthless, and it clumps every individual with such a degree into the same group of "worth."

I know people with business degree's, that I, as a philosophy major. Simply know more about business than they do. Arbitrary labels of "worth" are an issue in this society.

heavenlyboy34
04-24-2012, 08:07 PM
Come on man...really? Everyone knows that if you get a degree in drama, creative writing, or anything like that you're going to have a really hard time making money in today's world. It's better to just not do it if your object is surviving.

To be fair, people my age and younger were told constantly that getting any ol' degree will be the gateway to a job and bright future. To an extent, it's true. Since employers aren't allowed to test employee intelligence (discrimination laws) they have to resort to the degree requirement. Parents should do more to help kids make better decisions about these things, IMO.

MelissaWV
04-24-2012, 08:18 PM
Screw it.

BlackTerrel
04-24-2012, 09:40 PM
What does underemployed mean? "Underemployed for a college graduate"? We will never have an economy where everyone has high paying jobs - that's why they're high paying.

It is again the government (along with the media, and society in general) not understanding statistics.

10% of Americans graduate college and do well so they look at the stats and say "aha let's have everyone go to college", but a lot of people aren't capable of doing those jobs degrees or not and just giving them a degree doesn't make them qualified. Who is going to be the plumber, the mechanic, and the guy who takes my order at Taco Bell? Hate to break it to you but those jobs are always going to exist in any economy.

It's the same people that look at stats that say "homeowners are more involved in the community, commit less crime etc.." so the government puts these stupid incentives in place so we get more homeowners. But it doesn't change shit. The new homeowners act like they always did. It's not the owning of the home that makes the stats it's the underlying people who own them. (And I say this as a guy who rents and can't afford a home here in Cali).

Correlation does not equal causation no matter how much you want it to.

thoughtomator
04-24-2012, 09:55 PM
The economic value of a degree is that which the market puts on it - a degree which doesn't help someone make money has a book value of zero.

It seems someone here has an emotional investment in these pieces of paper having actual worth on their own irrespective of market demand. Sort of reminds me of TPTB's view on paper money.

oyarde
04-24-2012, 11:54 PM
To be fair, people my age and younger were told constantly that getting any ol' degree will be the gateway to a job and bright future. To an extent, it's true. Since employers aren't allowed to test employee intelligence (discrimination laws) they have to resort to the degree requirement. Parents should do more to help kids make better decisions about these things, IMO. Should , THIS , be theplace :) , where I jump in and remind everyone , that when I was 17 yrs old , you could kind of calculate , that , just , say , you made 1.2 million across your life you could , live , exceptionally well .The entire life .Then .. you are about to turn 50 , look back , see , THAT is not enough , you have already payed one half million in Social Security , MediCare , MediCaid , Federal Tax , Property Tax , State Tax , County Tax , child support . But , then that is nowhere near enough , there is sales tax , three gas taxes , 11 % ammo tax etc etc etc. If , you can surmise , you can make two million writing , go for it ! , Otherwise , better get a real job and write on the side . This kid is Luckyto be selling coffee , I wish him luck , I still think , though , as a creative writer , he missed his real oppurtunity in the health bill , I read it, extremely creative .

tttppp
04-25-2012, 12:06 AM
As a recent college grad, glad to be in the 47 percent. While the situation is tragic, the writer seems to come from the occupy wallstreet crowd, ie wanting even more goverment involvement to guarantee he will have a job. As for the readers story, sounds like he blew through all his savings really quick, like he was expecting and felt entitled to another job quickly, therefore he didn't make the necessary sacrifices required.

A college degree doesn't entitle you or guarantee you anything.

Why shouldn't a college degree come with a guarantee? A lot of great products come with guarantees. If a college degree can't get you work, then what is it there for? A lot of colleges have the wrong attitude. They think we should be honored to have a degree from their school, as if we just go there for the hell of it. We go to school to make money, period. If it doesn't make you money, its a ripoff.

After I graduated college, I was about ready to sue them for my money back. If finished near the top of my class, yet had to go on more than 50 interviews before I got an offer. I was about ready to say to them, "I'm you're best student, get me a job, or give me my money back."

oyarde
04-25-2012, 12:43 AM
Ahh BT , Taco Bell ? really ? :) That is kindofscary , you should come visit me some weekend , I will pick you up at the airport and feed you!

DamianTV
04-25-2012, 02:34 AM
Would you like a Degree with your Burrito Supreme, sir? :p

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-25-2012, 02:37 AM
You are STILL equating someone's "life work" with "getting a degree in the subject of your life's work."

What do you think people pursue those degree's for? Something they desire as their life work. Claiming that their degree is worthless, is claiming their interests are worthless.

Don Lapre
04-25-2012, 03:16 AM
What do you think people pursue those degree's for? Something they desire as their life work. Claiming that their degree is worthless, is claiming their interests are worthless.

It may not be worthless as far as a person's inner happiness is concerned.

A creative writing degree will just simply be likely to not be a good avenue to go down if a person is interested in making a living wage, however.


http://www.studentsreview.com/salary_by_major.php3

I don't see it on this list.

I see journalism.

Starting salary expectation of $44,000.

Would imagine a creative writing degree would have a lower expectation than that.

thoughtomator
04-25-2012, 03:47 AM
What do you think people pursue those degree's for? Something they desire as their life work. Claiming that their degree is worthless, is claiming their interests are worthless.

The brutal recognition of reality is a necessary corrective. A great deal of what people study in college is objectively worthless and the market is telling us so in no uncertain terms. If there was value in those degrees, they would fetch a premium in the market.

azxd
04-25-2012, 08:24 AM
Actually, no. That's not what I'm stating at all, but it doesn't surprise me you would jump to such a judgmental and preposterous conclusion. This entire mentality of proclaiming that someone else's life work, niche, and interests is "worthless" is simply sickening. It breeds yet again, an elitist mentality, a social status, a class of "worth." Where people may proclaim that someone is worth more or less, simply due to their degree. People immediately say that someone else's degree is worthless, and it clumps every individual with such a degree into the same group of "worth."

I know people with business degree's, that I, as a philosophy major. Simply know more about business than they do. Arbitrary labels of "worth" are an issue in this society.Not arbitrary - http://www.bls.gov/ooh/home.htm

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-25-2012, 10:01 AM
The brutal recognition of reality is a necessary corrective. A great deal of what people study in college is objectively worthless and the market is telling us so in no uncertain terms. If there was value in those degrees, they would fetch a premium in the market.

The reality of the market not being supportive to those degrees, is also a result of people taking those career fields for granted by the very mentality that perpetuates it.

azxd
04-25-2012, 10:08 AM
The reality of the market not being supportive to those degrees, is also a result of people taking those career fields for granted by the very mentality that perpetuates it.Would that be a mentality of choice ?
I.E.
Do I buy food (farmer), or a painting (artist) ?

Both are considered career fields, but one will always be in demand.

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-25-2012, 10:17 AM
Would that be a mentality of choice ?
I.E.
Do I buy food (farmer), or a painting (artist) ?

Both are considered career fields, but one will always be in demand.

Claiming a degree is "worthless." Is flawed as an argument.

I could view engineering to be flawed as a career field, and that degree worthless, because humanity grows technologically but lacks understanding of more important things. Wouldn't feel so good now, would it? Now, you could see my view of that is not part of the reality in the market demand. Which is true, but if I influence enough people into the same mentality, engineering will become a thing of the past as well.

azxd
04-25-2012, 10:21 AM
Claiming a degree is "worthless." Is flawed as an argument.

I could view engineering to be flawed as a career field, and that degree worthless, because humanity grows technologically but lacks understanding of more important things. Wouldn't feel so good now, would it? Now, you could see my view of that is not part of the reality in the market demand. Which is true, but if I influence enough people into the same mentality, engineering will become a thing of the past as well.Many people work in an area that does not align with their degree ... But that does not make their degree worthless.

At the least, a degree shows that you are proven trainable ... Does that make sense ?

However,
Thinking a degree is going to get you a job, is a false premise, and some degrees are less desirable within the workforce ... YES ?

Philosophy_of_Politics
04-25-2012, 10:36 AM
Many people work in an area that does not align with their degree ... But that does not make their degree worthless.

At the least, a degree shows that you are proven trainable ... Does that make sense ?

However,
Thinking a degree is going to get you a job, is a false premise, and some degrees are less desirable within the workforce ... YES ?

I still think you're missing my point. The issues pertaining to the market desire of those degrees/skills are not what I'm contesting. What I'm contesting is the mentality which promotes it, which only serves in "reinforcing" that mentality, which effectively only further contributes to making such degree's/fields less existent.

azxd
04-25-2012, 11:00 AM
I still think you're missing my point. The issues pertaining to the market desire of those degrees/skills are not what I'm contesting. What I'm contesting is the mentality which promotes it, which only serves in "reinforcing" that mentality, which effectively only further contributes to making such degree's/fields less existent.The mentality that promotes it is judgemental, this is true ... Do you deny that some degrees hold little value within the workforce, and because of this, the earning potential of someone who only wishes to work within their degreed profession, is likewise limited ?

I view it as being no different than the reasons why some careers do not even offer a degree program.

Nothing wrong with this, but it does remind me of this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_a4BU09GrU

GraniteHills
04-25-2012, 11:16 AM
Creative writing degrees aren't useless by any stretch. I have one and have led a very comfortable life because of it. Two of the things one needs to do with said degree, though, are a) network like hell with other writers/editors/publishers and b) publish like crazy.

If the guy in the article is like most CWR degree holders with whom I'm familiar, he's done neither and as such he has to expect he finds himself in the hole he's in.

Don't be collectivists, guys. The degree is not "useless" for it depends entirely on what the individual who attains it is willing to do to beat back the thousands of others like him from the precious few jobs.

tttppp
04-25-2012, 11:35 AM
Creative writing degrees aren't useless by any stretch. I have one and have led a very comfortable life because of it. Two of the things one needs to do with said degree, though, are a) network like hell with other writers/editors/publishers and b) publish like crazy.

If the guy in the article is like most CWR degree holders with whom I'm familiar, he's done neither and as such he has to expect he finds himself in the hole he's in.

Don't be collectivists, guys. The degree is not "useless" for it depends entirely on what the individual who attains it is willing to do to beat back the thousands of others like him from the precious few jobs.

I wouldn't say those degrees are worthless, but if you have a much lower chance of making money off that degree, your tuition should be much less expensive. Colleges don't do that. They over charge you regardless of what your major is.

The Free Hornet
04-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Lol. Stop the presses everyone. Forum activity will not be allowed to continue until we find this!

Can we resume the jocularity now?

http://www.lolbrary.com/content/527/knock-knock-obama-17527.gif

Philhelm
04-25-2012, 12:26 PM
Can we resume the jocularity now?

http://www.lolbrary.com/content/527/knock-knock-obama-17527.gif

Internet winner!!!

John F Kennedy III
04-25-2012, 01:25 PM
Can we resume the jocularity now?

http://www.lolbrary.com/content/527/knock-knock-obama-17527.gif

Fucking genius :D

MelissaWV
04-25-2012, 05:47 PM
Screw it.

John F Kennedy III
06-27-2012, 04:25 PM
Finally, a thread fitting of this pic.

http://i40.tinypic.com/xw2kz.jpg

BUMP :D