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sickmint79
11-15-2007, 09:42 AM
Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers and froze our bank accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should not to be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and Silver Libertys have been taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services took all the paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and in the people’s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a million is in paper or digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don’t let this happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use this terrible act to band together and further our goal – to return America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

Please click HERE to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the following into your web browser. http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn government and their dollar sinks to a new low.

Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect

Brent H
11-15-2007, 09:49 AM
Bernard von NotHaus is slightly less dishonest than the Federal Reserve. Here's a quote from his web site:


The Liberty Dollar brings free enterprise to the creation of money. Doesn't it just make sense that when the underlying commodity increases in value the purchasing power of the currency should increase in value? Well that is exactly what happened in 2005. The Liberty Dollar Moved Up from the $10 Silver Base to the new $20 Silver base and all Liberty Dollars DOUBLED in value. Just imagine, while your US Dollars are losing purchasing power, the Liberty Dollars are appreciating in value and rewarding

He's been advertising to the public that the value of his coins are determined by the face value of the coins which is false. The value is determined by the weight and purity just as is all other silver and gold rounds produced by competitors. The value did not "double" in value by changing the imprint on the coins. He has typically charged about a $5-10 premium to customers for the $20 imprint on his silver coins, above what competitors charge for silver rounds.

There are other producers of rounds which do not put the bogus statements on their coins, and sell them for a lot less. For example, see

http://www.nwtmintbullion.com/silver_nwtmintbullion.php which sells silver rounds labeled as "Silver Trade Unit". These cost about $15.

Here's silver coins from the U.S. Mint which are legal tender with a face value of $1: http://www.nwtmintbullion.com/silver_americaneagle.php They are sold for about $16.


Federal Reserve is guilty of deceiving the public.
FBI is guilty of theft (assuming the e-mail from Bernard is legitimate).
Bernard von NotHaus is guilty of swindling his customers by putting $20 face value imprints on his coins.

inertia
11-15-2007, 10:12 AM
The face value must be higher than the intrinsic value of the metal or else the coin will not circulate. A silver dollar from 1913 had an intrinsic value lower than it's face value, but this was not considered to be swindling on the part of the government.

Malakai0
11-15-2007, 10:51 AM
A 1oz gold coin will be $1000 dollars VERY soon. They were just planning ahead.


Buy spot gold now, once it actually gets near 20 get liberties cause they look nice. Assuming the email is fictitious (it hasn't been verified).

noxagol
11-15-2007, 10:55 AM
This is still trying to be verified by many various people.

inertia
11-15-2007, 10:56 AM
I noticed that the LibertyDollar.org web site was having problems yesterday. Today the catalog is down and the class action link works. If this is a hoax, it's elaborate.

pcosmar
11-15-2007, 10:57 AM
From the other thread, and all the checking so far, it seems to be a hoax/hack.
There is no evidence as yet that any raid took place.
It may be a phishing scam.
Stay tuned.

werdd
11-15-2007, 11:19 AM
I agree with pcosmar this time, don't jump to conclusions just yet.

inertia
11-15-2007, 11:45 AM
One possibility is that the raid happened yesterday, and the e-mail was scheduled to send today. Where I work, the person who writes the e-mail has little control of when the e-mail is sent. Of course, I could be wrong about this.

Here is some evidence to support my theory that this happened on the 14th:

DAILY COMMISSION RATE
Silver Spot $15.12
Updated: 11/14/07 13:01 EST
Associate Commission 4.7%
Merchant Commission 4.7%
Exchange Rate ALD to USD $0.861

The above block comes from the main site (libertydollar.org) and is usually updated up-to-the-minute, but instead, it has stopped at 1 PM on the 14th. If the raid began at 8 AM on the 14th, this might be reasonable.

http://digg.com/politics/FBI_Raids_Liberty_Dollar_n_Confiscates_All_Ron_Pau l_Dollars

jdmac44
11-15-2007, 02:32 PM
they state several times in their website what they're doing, they tell you very clearly that the value of the gold or silver does not equal face value when it is issued. They change the face value when the price of the metal rises to the face value. They tell you it is not an investment, but an attempt to change the system of barter. BUT in any case, they will exchange the Liberty Dollars for FRN's at face value, thus in a stable economy you will get that money back. If things go to hell in a handbasket you have the value of the gold or silver left at market value when the FRN value has gone into the basement. When they're originally issued, you are paying a premium because you believe in their cause to change the system and thus you are investing in the idea, NOT the money itself!

V Ron Paul 2008
11-15-2007, 02:50 PM
I say sue them! They have NO RIGHT to steal.
I will support you all in your efforts.

We will never accept microchips. This will only give us more reason to not
accept their microchips.

To find out why Ron Paul is the best candidate for President...

Ron Paul is the Best Choice for President in the '08 Election (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/429579/ron_paul_is_the_best_choice_for_president.html)

SeekLiberty
11-15-2007, 04:03 PM
they state several times in their website what they're doing, they tell you very clearly that the value of the gold or silver does not equal face value when it is issued. They change the face value when the price of the metal rises to the face value. They tell you it is not an investment, but an attempt to change the system of barter. BUT in any case, they will exchange the Liberty Dollars for FRN's at face value, thus in a stable economy you will get that money back. If things go to hell in a handbasket you have the value of the gold or silver left at market value when the FRN value has gone into the basement.

When they're originally issued, you are paying a premium because you believe in their cause to change the system and thus you are investing in the idea, NOT the money itself!

Touche! Well stated, jdmac.

For the record, I'm a Liberty Dollar associate and as a Liberty associate, compared to other silver coins being sold, you are not paying much more than what other silver coin dealers charge when you include the shipping in the total cost.

(BTW, the SPOT price for silver is almost $15.00 an ounce.)

- SL

SeekLiberty
11-15-2007, 04:11 PM
This is another major travesty in America!

One should be able to use whatever they want to use for a medium of exchange. If they want to use cigarettes or gas or even MARBLES and it's acceptable to the 2 parties? Then let them for gosh sakes!

This pisses me off to no end and only makes me that much more driven to the cause of Freedom!

- SL

jdmac44
11-15-2007, 04:16 PM
I'm very suspicious of this because the purported email says that their office in Evansville was raided, but their deposits are kept in a vault in Idaho. The blogger who reported this says he talked to "someone" who said he'd spoken to NotHaus. An Evansville paper has an article online about it, but it only uses the words "reportedly", referring to the email, and "A spokeswoman there [FBI Offices] said she had no information on the investigation." Very shoddy journalism.

Syren123
11-15-2007, 04:38 PM
It's not shoddy journalism...there's just no definitive info out there yet. Alex Jones talked about it on his show, but still....no word either way from the owner of the enterprise himself. Even people with his personal phone number can't get in touch with him.

Maybe he's being held as an enemy combatant in which case no one will be hearing from him for a while. Nothing but nothing is beyond the pale for this fascist govt.

If this is true, we are in a world of hurt. The whole legal tender issue was being litigated in court. The gold and silver are PRIVATE PROPERTY. If they can take it from them, they can take it from us with even less fanfare than this is getting.

pcosmar
11-15-2007, 04:54 PM
Well it seem there is more info than this morning, but not much more.
It would seem that a raid did take place.
http://reason.com/blog/show/123543.html

There are a lot of very pissed off people out there. Some heavily invested.
There has been an ongoing antagonism from the government over this alternate currency.
This is not good.

sickmint79
11-15-2007, 05:40 PM
this is bullshit - i have (had) an order in for 100 copper ron paul dollars. this is way LAME. and really lame for anybody with a lot more money into it...

UPDATE: Thanks to reasoner Jeff Taylor, I've seen a copy of a Nov. 9 seizure warrant on an Asheville, NC, address, not available online, claiming that Liberty Dollars at that address are forefeitable for being connected with money laundering and mail fraud. I have not read the entire 38 page warrant, nor am I 100 percent certain it is connected with the actions in Evansville today, but given that the Indianapolis FBI referred me to the U.S. Attorney in North Carolina, probably so, and that multiple raids were planned or executed re: the liberty dollar.

The warrant explains that the FBI from Aug 2005 to July 2007 were "conducting undercover operations to determine the legality of the American Liberty Dollar currency." The warrant also notes that von NotHaus sold an undercover agent a Liberty Dollar T-shirt, and that the agent observed von NotHaus driving a 1999 Cadillac Deville. It doesn't take a trained federal agent to connect the dots here, I suppose. In other words: What-th-what-th-What?

jdmac44
11-15-2007, 05:56 PM
It's not shoddy journalism...there's just no definitive info out there yet. Alex Jones talked about it on his show, but still....no word either way from the owner of the enterprise himself. Even people with his personal phone number can't get in touch with him.

Maybe he's being held as an enemy combatant in which case no one will be hearing from him for a while. Nothing but nothing is beyond the pale for this fascist govt.

If this is true, we are in a world of hurt. The whole legal tender issue was being litigated in court. The gold and silver are PRIVATE PROPERTY. If they can take it from them, they can take it from us with even less fanfare than this is getting.

When a newspaper runs a story with a headline stating that such an event has occurred and the only supporting evidence they have is an email that's been circulated and they've called the FBI and the FBI says we have no information on this investigation and the paper states all of this as if it's really happening, doesn't even call anything into question or make a disclaimer, THAT is shoddy journalism. And that's exactly what that local newspaper has done, it has passed along a rumor with no further support than what's going around the grapevine. If real evidence isn't there you don't report on it!

near_tucson
11-15-2007, 06:00 PM
"Courier Press (a local paper there) has this story < http://www.courierpress.com/news/2007/nov/15/liberty-dollar-office-raided/> which may be confirmation that something occurred after all.

"Liberty Dollar employees were at the office this morning cleaning up after the raid. They referred all questions to von NotHaus."

Which appears to indicate they went to the office and something had happened. Although it is very vague and doesn’t offer much more beyond quotes from the email...."


I spoke with Alan Julian, Business Editor, of the Evansville Courier Press (812-464-7458). He was very evasive when questioned about this story, did not answer any of my questions in trying to vet this story and just kept referring to their published story as all the info they had. This is very weird in the news business.

jaybone
11-15-2007, 06:03 PM
This is strange,
if it's true, then I am afraid that we may not even have until Nov 08 to turn this thing around.
IF it's a hoax, then I hope it gets Ron some coverage at least

I think SHTF sooner than anybody thinks,

"Nobody expects the spanish inquisition" Monty Python

porcupine
11-15-2007, 06:32 PM
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/123543.html

moberley
11-15-2007, 06:42 PM
I'm very suspicious of this because the purported email says that their office in Evansville was raided, but their deposits are kept in a vault in Idaho.

Regarding the two locations only. I'm not involved with the Liberty Dollar, this is just information I looked up on their website at http://www.libertydollar.org/

Evansville, Indiana is the location of the offices of Liberty Services the company that marketed and distributed the Liberty Dollar product. The Idaho location refers to the secure warehouse where the metal backing the "paper" Liberty Dollars (i.e. warehouse receipts) was stored. These paper receipts were made available along with the actual metal specie.

The warehouse is operated by Sunshine Minting which is the same company that did the custom manufacturing of specie for Liberty Services.

The specie stored in that warehouse were audited on a monthly basis according to Liberty Services and most of the audit reports are still available on the Liberty Dollar website. The reports appear to stop earlier this year but I was not able to find any indication of the reason for that.

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/information/audit-statement.htm
http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/information/audits.htm