LA cops kill another unarmed 19y/o

[tod evans]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/police-90-rounds-101-freeway.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fiBc0oMpiU


Police fired more than 90 rounds at man on 101 Freeway

Eight Los Angeles police officers fired more than 90 rounds at an unarmed 19-year-old man who had led them on a high speed freeway pursuit and called 911 to threaten them with a gun, authorities said.

The shooting played out on live television after Abdul Arian refused to pull over when police tried to stop him for erratic driving. He led police on a chase onto the 101 Freeway, where he stopped in dramatic fashion -- turning his car and stopping across eastbound lanes.

He jumped out of the car and ran. Then he turned and appeared to run backwards. Police said he assumed a "shooting stance" and appeared to raise his arms and appear to point a weapon, prompting them to open fire, killing him.

No gun was found at the scene, but police released statements Arian made to a 911 dispatcher in which he claims he has a weapon and makes it clear that he's not afraid to use it.

"I have a gun," Arian said.

"I've been arrested before for possession of destructive devices; I'm not afraid of the cops."

He also said: "If they pull their guns, I'm going to have to pull my gun out on them."

According to a news release, the dispatcher pleaded with Arian to surrender peacefully, saying, "I don't want you to hurt yourself."

Arian responded with expletives and a threat: "... these police, they're going to get hurt."

The department's force investigation division kept the freeway closed all night as they collected evidence and conducted interviews. Department officials will review several factors related to the incident, including communication tactics and whether the large number of rounds fired endangered other freeway motorists.

No breakdowns were available about how many shots each officer fired.

[QuickZ06]

I am sure they just sprinkled some crack on him and will say he was high and crazy.

[dillo]

I am sure they just sprinkled some crack on him and will say he was high and crazy.

Because he sound soooo rational

[TheTexan]

Because he sound soooo rational

Chances are equal that
a) this guy was a dick and had it coming
b) he's being portrayed as a dick that had it coming

Not really worth my time to investigate, but I'm not going to be so quick to pass judgement, considering how many times in the past the media has lied about this shit

[Brian4Liberty]

Move along, does not fit the agenda...

[Lafayette]

Move along, does not fit the agenda...

Which agenda is that? You mean the one that points out how everyday people are murdered, beaten, tortured, have their pets killed and rights violated by law enforcement?

Because force may be justified in this case, that somehow negates this fact?

[smartguy911]

"I have a gun," Arian said.

"I've been arrested before for possession of destructive devices; I'm not afraid of the cops."

He also said: "If they pull their guns, I'm going to have to pull my gun out on them."

According to a news release, the dispatcher pleaded with Arian to surrender peacefully, saying, "I don't want you to hurt yourself."

Arian responded with expletives and a threat: "... these police, they're going to get hurt."

He is making it clear he has a weapon and he will use it. What is a cop suppose to do? Wait for him to shoot first or hope that he was just kidding on the phone?

[Brian4Liberty]

Which agenda is that?

The agenda that would make this a major, national, MSM firestorm (and a long thread here).

The Trayvon Zimmerman case, on the other hand, was good enough for multiple agendas to come into play:


This case has been the perfect storm for many groups. Not the least is the establishment.

- Establishment Law enforcement: How many thousands of cases exist where the Police (of some form) have shot and killed an unarmed person? An unarmed person that never assaulted or battered them in any way, shape or form? This is not one of those cases. Conveniently, this is a mundane who has done the shooting, not the Police. As a matter of fact, this case has many people granting new authority to the Police in various ways, and at the same time there is the desire to take rights away from mundanes. Very convenient indeed.

- Establishment Favoritism: George was not law enforcement, but apparently his father was a retired Judge. This is an inconvenient fact that must be downplayed, if not completely buried. The case isn't perfect, but it can be spun. They can not allow this to be about the establishment or related favoritism.

- Diversion and distraction: Nothing better than an emotional race case to distract the masses. This is a benefit to many (who knows what we have been distracted from? We've been distracted!). That includes the current Administration. Best to keep it simple, black and white. But George was not exactly white. Another inconvenient fact. One that was "overlooked" for a quite a while, and is still overlooked by many. Just spin it.

- Charlatans: Nothing like a good tragedy to make some money and celebrity. Calling Al Sharpton.

- Gun grabbers: Once again, the perfection of this particular case is that George was not law enforcement. Perfect, as the gun grabbers want the Police and soldiers to be the only people with guns (with the exception that only the most trusted soldiers can have guns in the physical presence of the elite). This would not be possible with a Police shooting.

- SYG Law: Once again, a great case to repeal laws and take rights away from mundanes. This would not be possible with a Police shooting.

- Presidential Politics: Never waste a tragedy. This will get out the voters and donors for Obama's re-election.

- Racial Profiling: Once again, how convenient for the Police. In one fell swoop, with hardly anyone noticing, the entire concept (and guilt?) of "racial profiling" has been shifted from the government to the mundanes! This would not be possible with a Police shooting.

- Private and semi-private property rights: Apparently it is now some kind of assault to ask someone on your property, or in your gated community, any questions. Can you even say "hello"? Probably not, if the person you say "hello" to takes offense at your obvious insult.

- Thought crime: The dream of the Orwellian's. George was thinking incorrectly before the shooting. It's on the tape. That is a crime in itself! The shooting is just a secondary crime. The first crime is the thought crime.

[Brian4Liberty]

Suicide by cop. Just not newsworthy or controversial enough.

[Lafayette]

The agenda that would make this a major, national, MSM firestorm (and a long thread here).

The Trayvon Zimmerman case, on the other hand, was good enough for multiple agendas to come into play:

I see, i thought you meant "LEO bashing" ,there are always a few of those comments in a post by AF

[phill4paul]

Seems this 'kid' had some kind of mental break. In instances like this I often wonder if he were on meds or if he was doing an unprescribed drug. He seemed to be acting out some kinda 'Grand Theft Auto' fantasy.
Still 90 rounds. Wow!

[tod evans]

He is making it clear he has a weapon and he will use it. What is a cop suppose to do? Wait for him to shoot first or hope that he was just kidding on the phone?

Since when is "I thought he had a gun" justification for killing someone?

Doesn't anyone else have a problem with this?

If "Joe Citizen" had pumped 90 rounds toward a cop would you feel the same way?

[azxd]

No problem.

But it does show that a bit more firearms training is needed.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Since when is "I thought he had a gun" justification for killing someone?

Doesn't anyone else have a problem with this?

If "Joe Citizen" had pumped 90 rounds toward a cop would you feel the same way?


Cops definitely have guns, and will use them.



He is making it clear he has a weapon and he will use it. What is a cop suppose to do? Wait for him to shoot first or hope that he was just kidding on the phone?


Police assume people have weapons anyway, and treat everyone as such.

I don't know what happened here. Sounds like suicide by cop to me, but there are plenty of cases where they don't need to be so fast to help.

[pcosmar]

He is making it clear he has a weapon and he will use it. What is a cop suppose to do? Wait for him to shoot first or hope that he was just kidding on the phone?

YES,
Talking shit, and making empty threats is not an excuse to execute someone.

As far as I am concerned a cop should NEVER draw his weapon until fired upon. EVER.
Period.

(would be better if they did not exist in the first place.)

[pcosmar]

If "Joe Citizen" had pumped 90 rounds toward a cop would you feel the same way?

"Joe Citizen" wouldn't waste that many rounds.

;)

[tod evans]

No problem.

But it does show that a bit more firearms training is needed.

So you're cool with cops shooting an unarmed man?

[tod evans]

Because he sound soooo rational

Why that's a good reason to use him for target practice........The guy's nutty let's gang up and blast away until he shuts up...

[Spikender]

Ninety rounds? For one guy? Really? I know Police Officers aren't known for their stellar accuracy, but seriously. It's as if they just wanted an excuse to pull the trigger on their guns as much as possible before finally saying "Yep, we just randomly sprayed ninety bullets in his general direction, he's dead". It's a wonder no one else got shot; I know he was on a Freeway and not out in neighborhood or a city, but ninety bullets flying at a guy and not one hitting another person is a miracle.

[jmdrake]

The agenda that would make this a major, national, MSM firestorm (and a long thread here).

The Trayvon Zimmerman case, on the other hand, was good enough for multiple agendas to come into play:

True. But if there was incontrovertible evidence that had threatened Zimmerman with a gun he didn't have that story wouldn't have had legs. There are better examples of death by cop that don't get reported in the media. Like:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?369250-Trayvon-Martin-and-the-Cult-Of-Government-(good-Will-Grigg-piece)&highlight=grigg+trayvon

And just because something doesn't get hyped by the media doesn't mean it won't get a long thread here. For example the Sunday School teacher - cop shooting.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?360578-School-teacher-killed-by-police-for-rolling-up-her-car-window&highlight=sunday+school+shot

[asurfaholic]

If it played on live tv, does anyone have a link to the video?

[fisharmor]

How about we find out WHY the cops were chasing him in the first place?


No breakdowns were available about how many shots each officer fired.

Oh, well, there you have it - investigative journalism at its finest.... give us a breakdown of shots fired, and we don't care why they were after him.

[TheTexan]

As far as I am concerned a cop should NEVER draw his weapon until fired upon. EVER.
Period.

That's taking it a bit extreme IMO. I think they should be able to defend themselves as civilians. I certainly wouldn't wait to draw my weapon until a person started shooting at me, and I wouldn't expect a cop to do that either.

Then again, they signed up to protect and serve. Perhaps we should hold them to a higher standard, because they do so love to call themselves heroes and all that.

[tod evans]

That's taking it a bit extreme IMO. I think they should be able to defend themselves as civilians. I certainly wouldn't wait to draw my weapon until a person started shooting at me, and I wouldn't expect a cop to do that either.

Then again, they signed up to protect and serve. Perhaps we should hold them to a higher standard, because they do so love to call themselves heroes and all that.

Cops run in pairs, wear body armor and have thousands of reinforcements available at the push of a button.

Should a cop be permitted to shoot and kill an unarmed citizen no matter what the citizen says?

Should a "gang" of cops be any less liable for shooting an unarmed citizen?

Cops should be held to the same legal standards as a citizen......No more-no less.

However, I'd like to have every cops working hours recorded, no exceptions. No recording no pay.....No recording no conviction of a citizen.......No recording of "deadly force", guilty cop.

[PaulConventionWV]

Since when is "I thought he had a gun" justification for killing someone?

Doesn't anyone else have a problem with this?

If "Joe Citizen" had pumped 90 rounds toward a cop would you feel the same way?

If you thought someone was going to use a gun on you, what would you do? What would you do if you had a gun of your own?

[brushfire]

"Joe Citizen" wouldn't waste that many rounds.

;)

LEO's are trained to "Shoot until the threat is neutralized". There are many cases of officers doing mag dumps - it supports them in court too. The actions taken are viewed as "appropriate" according to the perceived threat. Those citizens who have taken defense training are taught the same. Dont stop until the threat is neutralized. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, its hard to argue the need for "lethal force" if you just plug the guy once in the knee.

At the very least, "Dude" didn't help his chances of survival by calling 911 and threatening to have a gun, while leading police on a reckless chase. He'd already shown no regard for the safety of himself, or anyone else. Add to that, the possibility of him having a gun, and his previous statements to the 911 dispatch. I'm not an apologist for the police, but I have a hard time getting hung up on this particular story. It only stands to discredit other, more compelling cases of misconduct and unlawful killing of citizens by police.

[TheTexan]

Cops run in pairs, wear body armor and have thousands of reinforcements available at the push of a button.

Should a cop be permitted to shoot and kill an unarmed citizen no matter what the citizen says

Should a "gang" of cops be any less liable for shooting an unarmed citizen?

Cops should be held to the same legal standards as a citizen......No more-no less.

Agreed


However, I'd like to have every cops working hours recorded, no exceptions. No recording no pay.....No recording no conviction of a citizen.......No recording of "deadly force", guilty cop.

Agreed. Or a third-party non-cop witness.

[PaulConventionWV]

YES,
Talking shit, and making empty threats is not an excuse to execute someone.

As far as I am concerned a cop should NEVER draw his weapon until fired upon. EVER.
Period.

(would be better if they did not exist in the first place.)

I agree, but you really can't expect anyone to wait until a weapon is used before firing. That makes this case somewhat more justifiable in a "heat of the moment" context.

[tod evans]

If you thought someone was going to use a gun on you, what would you do? What would you do if you had a gun of your own?

Well, let's see..........Were I wearing body armor in a car full of communication gear and armaments with an armed partner.....I would wait until I knew the guy was going to engage.....Knew being the operative word.

There is no excuse for a gang of cops to kill an unarmed man no matter what drivel spews forth from his mouth.


But.....Yeah, if some mouthy bastard pulled an actual gun on me and I was armed, I'd perforate him.

[dannno]

I'd like to know what prescription drugs he was on.

[brushfire]

I agree, but you really can't expect anyone to wait until a weapon is used before firing. That makes this case somewhat more justifiable in a "heat of the moment" context.

Yea, I agree. At the very least, the dead guy didnt give himself much of a chance. Life is not a movie. Rational people dont do what he did, and expect to come out on top (much less alive).

[PaulConventionWV]

LEO's are trained to "Shoot until the threat is neutralized". There are many cases of officers doing mag dumps - it supports them in court too. The actions taken are viewed as "appropriate" according to the perceived threat. Those citizens who have taken defense training are taught the same. Dont stop until the threat is neutralized. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, its hard to argue the need for "lethal force" if you just plug the guy once in the knee.

At the very least, "Dude" didn't help his chances of survival by calling 911 and threatening to have a gun, while leading police on a reckless chase. He'd already shown no regard for the safety of himself, or anyone else. Add to that, the possibility of him having a gun, and his previous statements to the 911 dispatch. I'm not an apologist for the police, but I have a hard time getting hung up on this particular story. It only stands to discredit other, more compelling cases of misconduct and unlawful killing of citizens by police.

That's right. "I was scared so I emptied the clip", is the best defense in self-defense cases like this one.

[TheTexan]

LEO's are trained to "Shoot until the threat is neutralized". There are many cases of officers doing mag dumps - it supports them in court too. The actions taken are viewed as "appropriate" according to the perceived threat. Those citizens who have taken defense training are taught the same. Dont stop until the threat is neutralized. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, its hard to argue the need for "lethal force" if you just plug the guy once in the knee.

At the very least, "Dude" didn't help his chances of survival by calling 911 and threatening to have a gun, while leading police on a reckless chase. He'd already shown no regard for the safety of himself, or anyone else. Add to that, the possibility of him having a gun, and his previous statements to the 911 dispatch. I'm not an apologist for the police, but I have a hard time getting hung up on this particular story. It only stands to discredit other, more compelling cases of misconduct and unlawful killing of citizens by police.

Ya assuming what we are told is true, this is a good shoot IMO. If you don't want to get shot unarmed, don't tell a bunch of cops [or anyone, for that matter] that you have a weapon and plan to use it, and then point your hand at them.

[tod evans]

I'd like to know what prescription drugs he was on.

Chinese herbs (wink)

[PaulConventionWV]

Well, let's see..........Were I wearing body armor in a car full of communication gear and armaments with an armed partner.....I would wait until I knew the guy was going to engage.....Knew being the operative word.

There is no excuse for a gang of cops to kill an unarmed man no matter what drivel spews forth from his mouth.


But.....Yeah, if some mouthy bastard pulled an actual gun on me and I was armed, I'd perforate him.

You can never know until they actually do engage. Maybe they were just going to point it at you. You can't expect people not to act in self-defense if they believe they are going to be shot at. Especially when he said he was a gun and would use it. If he appears to be acting on that claim, I wouldn't blame anyone for filling his ass full of lead.

[tod evans]

Found a tube.........

[Brian4Liberty]

Ninety rounds? For one guy? Really?

That does seem a little excessive, almost panicked. If multiple officers shoot a person, that makes it harder to single out one as being (ir)responsible. Then there is the days off angle.


Ya assuming what we are told is true, this is a good shoot IMO. If you don't want to get shot unarmed, don't tell a bunch of cops [or anyone, for that matter] that you have a weapon and plan to use it, and then point your hand at them.

So many options for killing yourself. The irony is that arguably the most civilized way to do it would be to call Dr. Kevorkian, but no, we put a Doctor like that in prison.

[dannno]

Then there is the days off angle.


So, you mean, most of these guys were thinking, "Oh shit, he's shot! Let me put a bullet in him so I can go on vacation!"

[tod evans]

You can never know until they actually do engage. Maybe they were just going to point it at you. You can't expect people not to act in self-defense if they believe they are going to be shot at. Especially when he said he was a gun and would use it. If he appears to be acting on that claim, I wouldn't blame anyone for filling his ass full of lead.

Watched the tube a few times.......lots of lights and cops but no footage of the actual shooting.

Looks to me as though the kid was corralled when the film stops.

[jmdrake]

Watched the tube a few times.......lots of lights and cops but no footage of the actual shooting.

Looks to me as though the kid was corralled when the film stops.

My thoughts exactly. They didn't shoot him when he supposedly "lifted his hands" at them. I dunno. Plus they had a chopper. Maybe I thinking "Hollywood physics" but couldn't they have knocked him over by the force of the downdraft?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWaYXfdqHIE

Anyhow I haven't heard the 9/11 tapes. If they are accurate it seems like "suicide by cop". But that might not be the case.

[tod evans]

Anyhow I haven't heard the 9/11 tapes. If they are accurate it seems like "suicide by cop". But that might not be the case.

I have a hard time getting my head around some guy lipping off being justification to grease him.

Even lipping off and running away....

[heavenlyboy34]

Seems this 'kid' had some kind of mental break. In instances like this I often wonder if he were on meds or if he was doing an unprescribed drug. He seemed to be acting out some kinda 'Grand Theft Auto' fantasy.
Still 90 rounds. Wow!
Maybe these cops were piss-poor shots? /grim sarcasm

[Brian4Liberty]

So, you mean, most of these guys were thinking, "Oh shit, he's shot! Let me put a bullet in him so I can go on vacation!"

It's more like a firing squad when it goes down, but there are jokes about the time off. It's probably not the first thing on most of their minds at the time.

[PaulConventionWV]

Watched the tube a few times.......lots of lights and cops but no footage of the actual shooting.

Looks to me as though the kid was corralled when the film stops.

Doesn't change what I said.

[jmdrake]

I have a hard time getting my head around some guy lipping off being justification to grease him.

Even lipping off and running away....

I agree. Problem is his "lipping" was allegedly threatening. If he just said "Cops suck and their mamas drive dump trucks! You'll never catch me pigs!" that wouldn't sound threatening. From the video I definitely question the shooting though. I assume the final movements were edited out because the news didn't want to be too "graphic"? Then again that didn't stop the showing of the subway shooting. Then again that was already over YouTube.

[TheTexan]

I agree. Problem is his "lipping" was allegedly threatening. If he just said "Cops suck and their mamas drive dump trucks! You'll never catch me pigs!" that wouldn't sound threatening. From the video I definitely question the shooting though. I assume the final movements were edited out because the news didn't want to be too "graphic"? Then again that didn't stop the showing of the subway shooting. Then again that was already over YouTube.

Its entirely possible, even probable, that this kid didn't raise an arm in a shooting motion. Certainly wouldn't be the first time cps have lied about that

[PaulConventionWV]

Its entirely possible, even probable, that this kid didn't raise an arm in a shooting motion. Certainly wouldn't be the first time cps have lied about that

Well, the video kind of throws that notion out the window.

[heavenlyboy34]

These long car chases are stupid and unnecessary. Instead of this irrational shit, they could easily call in a chopper and just follow the "perp". IMO, the pigs only do these silly chases to act macho. :p

[jmdrake]

Well, the video kind of throws that notion out the window.

Does look that way....but then they don't shoot him at that point. :confused: I'd like to see what happened right before the shooting.

[TheTexan]

Well, the video kind of throws that notion out the window.

Ya I'm at work so I haven't seen the video, I thought the actual shouting wasnt shown?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

LEO's are trained to "Shoot until the threat is neutralized". There are many cases of officers doing mag dumps - it supports them in court too. The actions taken are viewed as "appropriate" according to the perceived threat. Those citizens who have taken defense training are taught the same. Dont stop until the threat is neutralized. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, its hard to argue the need for "lethal force" if you just plug the guy once in the knee.

At the very least, "Dude" didn't help his chances of survival by calling 911 and threatening to have a gun, while leading police on a reckless chase. He'd already shown no regard for the safety of himself, or anyone else. Add to that, the possibility of him having a gun, and his previous statements to the 911 dispatch. I'm not an apologist for the police, but I have a hard time getting hung up on this particular story. It only stands to discredit other, more compelling cases of misconduct and unlawful killing of citizens by police.

No, he didn't help his chances. Still not an offense punishable by execution on site. I agree that it may discredit other cases, but we don;t know what happened here.

Where's the tube? I looked back through the thread and couldn't find a link.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Guy was crazy but unarmed. Could have just tazed him.

[tod evans]

Where's the tube? I looked back through the thread and couldn't find a link.

First post edited with tube.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

First post edited with tube.

Thanks. I went all the way back to 2 since I'd seen page 1 10 times already. :)