Antidepressant Drugs Causing Epidemic of Mania, Mayhem and Murder

[John F Kennedy III]

Antidepressant Drugs Causing Epidemic of Mania, Mayhem and Murder

America’s addiction to dangerous SSRI’s hits crisis levels

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Infowars.com
Monday, April 9, 2012

The alleged shooting of a police officer in Austin by a man taking the anti-anxiety drug Xanax is just one of a plethora of recent incidents fueled by anti-depressant pharmaceuticals – an epidemic of mania that has swept the country.

Mary O’Dell, the mother of 24-year-old Brandon Montgomery Daniel told the Associated Press that her son’s role in the fatal shooting of Austin Senior Police Officer Jaime Padron was fueled by alcohol and psychotropic drugs.

“She said she talked with her son Thursday evening, and that he had been taking the prescription anti-anxiety drug Xanax and drinking tequila,” reports AP. “Hours later, Padron was fatally shot at a Walmart while trying to subdue a potentially intoxicated man who was later identified as Daniel, investigators said. Two employees tackled and disarmed him, then held him until help arrived.”

O’Dell added that Daniel was not even aware of what had taken place because “he was under the influence of tequila and Xanax.”

This is just one of a spate of shocking incidents over recent years in which Xanax and other similar pharmaceuticals have played a central role in triggering random violence and mania.

The two recent incidents involving airline officials suffering mental breakdowns during flights were also caused by anti-depressant drugs.

JetBlue pilot Clayton Osbon, who went crazy and began screaming about Al-Qaeda and threatening to take the plane down during an incident last month was described as a “consummate professional” by colleagues. However, experts looking into the case confirm that “several pharmacological issues under scrutiny within the airline industry are likely to get attention in the Osbon case, including the side effects of medicines that pilots sometimes use to fight fatigue and depression.”

“Was Osbon, for instance, among those pilots newly permitted by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to use one of four specific antidepression medications, whose potential side effects are known to include hallucination and panic attacks?” reports the Christian Science Monitor.

In a separate incident, an American Airlines flight attendant had to be restrained by passengers after she went on a crazy tirade about crashing the plane and killing everyone onboard. It later emerged that the flight attendant had been on medication to treat a bipolar disorder.

A 50-year-old grandmother who went nuts and began kicking, punching and spitting at flight attendants for being refused alcohol last month also blamed her anti-anxiety medication for the outburst.

The Save Project, an organization committed to highlighting the dangers of SSRI drugs, highlights a laundry list of cases where use of anti-depressants, particularly amongst young people, has led to violence. Below is just a partial list.


Eric Harris, the triggerman in the Columbine school shootings, killed his fellow students and took his own life while taking Luvox.

Thirteen year-old Chris Fetters killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Twelve year-old Christopher Pittman murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Thirteen year-old Mathew Miller hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Fifteen year-old Jarred Viktor stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Fifteen year old Kip Kinkel (Prozac and RITALIN) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham aged 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

Boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 who in seizure activity from Zoloft had a stand off at the school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin) a 14-year-old opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded, one of whom was paralyzed.

Young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, aged 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, aged 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, aged 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, aged 19, (Psychiatric Drugs – various) Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush aged 13 (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Another boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) had a stand off at the school.

Jarred Viktor aged 15 (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan aged 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Antidepressants are also exacerbating gang on gang violence. 18-year-old Bryan Sandoval Rocha was recently sentenced to five years in jail for stabbing three rival gang members. “Rocha was taking antidepressants at the time,” reports the San Rafael News Pointer.

Last year the Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) produced a study based on FDA figures that illustrated how the antidepressants Pristiq (desvenlafaxine), Paxil (paroxetine) and Prozac (fluoxetine), all appear in the list of the top ten violence-causing drugs.

America’s addiction to psychotropic drugs is out of control and growing every year.

According to a report in the London Guardian today, “(subscriptions) for benzodiazepines – the class of anti-anxiety drugs including Xanax, Valium, Ativan, and Klonopin – have gone up 17% since 2006 to 94m annually, New York magazine notes. Generic Xanax, which goes by the name alprazolam, has become 23% more popular in that same timeframe “making it the most prescribed psycho-pharmaceutical drug and the 11th-most prescribed overall, with 46m prescriptions written in 2010″.

The connection between anti-depressant drugs and inexplicable and sudden violence is especially prescient given today’s report concerning how “110,000 Army personnel were given antidepressants, narcotics, sedatives, antipsychotics and anti-anxiety drugs,” while on duty last year, prescribed medicines on which psychologists have blamed “a surge in random acts of violence”.

“We have never medicated our troops to the extent we are doing now … And I don’t believe the current increase in suicides and homicides in the military is a coincidence,” Bart Billings, a former military psychologist and combat stress expert, told the Los Angeles Times.

Lawyers are also currently investigating whether Staff Sergeant Robert Bales, accused of massacring 17 Afghan civilians, was influenced by a cocktail of antidepressant drugs that triggered a psychotic episode.

It’s abundantly clear that the epidemic of craziness and violence we are witnessing both in America and by U.S. troops abroad is being fueled by dangerous psychotropic drugs, subscription pharmaceuticals that are causing normally sane people to fly off the hook and act out with insane acts of mania or violence.

Such shocking incidents will continue to happen at an ever-increasing rate until there is a massive backlash against the pharmaceutical industry and establishment doctors for pushing drugs that are directly causing violence, lunacy and bloodshed.


original article here:
http://www.infowars.com/antidepressant-drugs-causing-epidemic-of-mania/

[Anti Federalist]

It's about time these incidents started getting cataloged.

[phill4paul]

Wait till the placebos are shipped in mass quantity.

[dannno]

bump

[Acala]

Back when I was a young man, it was PROVEN that nearly every man who contracted lung cancer regularly carried matches in his pocket. Matches cause lung cancer.

[dannno]

Back when I was a young man, it was PROVEN that nearly every man who contracted lung cancer regularly carried matches in his pocket. Matches cause lung cancer.

What percentage of people who are 'psychotic' are not on prescription drugs/cocktails and have not been for at least 1 year?

What percentage of people from these types of incidents are in that group vs. taking or have taken in the last year these drugs?

[Danke]

Back when I was a young man, it was PROVEN that nearly every man who contracted lung cancer regularly carried matches in his pocket. Matches cause lung cancer.

And now you run barefooted in the desert... strange world.

[ItsTime]

Anyone who thinks these drugs are safe are the insane ones.

[pcosmar]

LSD was not the only drug researched under the MK Ultra umbrella. And Research centers along with Big Pharma were involved intimately in these research projects.

You are witnessing the results of years of trials and billions of dollars.

I do not believe that it is accidental.

http://ssristories.com/
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date

And though the program was "officially" ended after the truth of it started leaking out,, I have never been convinced that it ended at all.

[Acala]

What percentage of people who are 'psychotic' are not on prescription drugs/cocktails and have not been for at least 1 year?

What percentage of people from these types of incidents are in that group vs. taking or have taken in the last year these drugs?

I have no idea. But I am not aware, nor does the article cite, ANY evidence that anyone has demonstrated even a significant correlation between "these types of incidents" (whatever THAT means) and the use of xanax. So when the article jumps to the conclusion, repeated in the thread title, that certain drugs are causing murder etc. that is pure speculation.

There are literally millions of people who take xanax without acting violently, and many incidents of violence recorded through history before xanax was invented. So, if you want to be a careful, critical thinker, the ONLY thing you can conclude from this anecdotal evidence is that xanax and tequila do not prevent violence 100%. Anything beyond that is unsupported.

You are, of course, free to speculate at will. But don't pretend it is science.

[Acala]

Anyone who thinks these drugs are safe are the insane ones.

I don't advocate the use of drugs to treat mental illness (with a few exceptions). But it is unsound to declare, based on the evidence presented, that these drugs are "causing" murder.

[Acala]

And now you run barefooted in the desert... strange world.

And you encase your feet in padding as if they were stinky crystal goblets. Strange indeed.

[angelatc]

Antidepressant Drugs Causing Epidemic of Mania, Mayhem and Murder/ (http://www.infowars.com/antidepressant-drugs-causing-epidemic-of-mania/)

And yet crime rates are actually falling. Hard to reconcile......

[ItsTime]

I don't advocate the use of drugs to treat mental illness (with a few exceptions). But it is unsound to declare, based on the evidence presented, that these drugs are "causing" murder.

I know someone who murdered someone right after they were put on these types of drugs and then had his dose changed. He tried to cut off his gfs head. Before that he showed no signs of violence at all. He claims he blacked out.

[pcosmar]

And yet crime rates are actually falling. Hard to reconcile......

No it isn't..
Reported crime does not include crimes BY the state.
Reported crime does not include crimes that are not reported.

And also the incidence of pointless crime (Mass shootings) has risen with the use of these drugs.

Read the link I gave.

[Acala]

I know someone who murdered someone right after they were put on these types of drugs and then had his dose changed. He tried to cut off his gfs head. Before that he showed no signs of violence at all. He claims he blacked out.

Most people who murder someone never murdered anyone before. Therefore, whatever they ate for breakfast the morning of the murder caused it.

Most people who are addicted to heroin smoked pot first. Therefore, pot causes heroin addiction.

The Great Depression ended after WWII therefore WWII ended the Great Depression.

I don't really care one way of the other, but you might want to understand the fallacies in the narratives humans create around cause and effect.

[tttppp]

I have no idea. But I am not aware, nor does the article cite, ANY evidence that anyone has demonstrated even a significant correlation between "these types of incidents" (whatever THAT means) and the use of xanax. So when the article jumps to the conclusion, repeated in the thread title, that certain drugs are causing murder etc. that is pure speculation.

There are literally millions of people who take xanax without acting violently, and many incidents of violence recorded through history before xanax was invented. So, if you want to be a careful, critical thinker, the ONLY thing you can conclude from this anecdotal evidence is that xanax and tequila do not prevent violence 100%. Anything beyond that is unsupported.

You are, of course, free to speculate at will. But don't pretend it is science.

I would be surprised if xanax had any effect on these people. Its a relatively safe drug (although there really is no such thing). Anti-depressants are another story. They can severely fuck up your liver and kidneys, can cause impotence and severe weight gain. They are not something you want to take. To top that off, they really are not that effective, and in many cases they are reported to have the exact opposite effect of what was intended.

[tttppp]

In my opinion we should start investigating the doctors who prescribe these medications to patients who go on a killing spree. The whole point of giving out these medications is to prevent violent behavior. If these drugs are having the opposite effect, why are these doctors prescribing them?

[pcosmar]

why are these doctors prescribing them?

#1.Kickbacks.
#2. it is more profitable to prescribe a drug than to actually take the time to understand the individual and counsel them.

[tttppp]

#1.Kickbacks.
#2. it is more profitable to prescribe a drug than to actually take the time to understand the individual and counsel them.

Thats exactly why legal action should be taken against them. If they don't have a rational explanation for giving a drug, they should be liable for the damages the medicine causes.

[pcosmar]

Another good documentary.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pssR-NL_LNE

[ItsTime]

Most people who murder someone never murdered anyone before. Therefore, whatever they ate for breakfast the morning of the murder caused it.

Most people who are addicted to heroin smoked pot first. Therefore, pot causes heroin addiction.

The Great Depression ended after WWII therefore WWII ended the Great Depression.

I don't really care one way of the other, but you might want to understand the fallacies in the narratives humans create around cause and effect.

Using this reasoning nothing causing anything.

[pcosmar]

Thats exactly why legal action should be taken against them. If they don't have a rational explanation for giving a drug, they should be liable for the damages the medicine causes.

Nope,, They are insulated. Both the insurance companies and Pharmaceutical companies have buildings full of well paid lawyers to deal with this shit.

[tttppp]

Nope,, They are insulated. Both the insurance companies and Pharmaceutical companies have buildings full of well paid lawyers to deal with this shit.

Thats really a different topic. Unfortunately, cases are won or lost in this country based on who has the most money. Odds are a mentally unstable person is not going to have the resources to take on these people.

But that doesn't change the fact that these doctors SHOULD be liable for the damages their medication causes.

[dannno]

I do not believe that it is accidental.

http://ssristories.com/
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date

And though the program was "officially" ended after the truth of it started leaking out,, I have never been convinced that it ended at all.


WARNING!

Withdrawal can often be more dangerous than continuing on a medication. It is important to withdraw extremely slowly from these drugs, usually over a period of a year or more, under the supervision of a qualified specialist. Withdrawal is sometimes more severe than the original
symptoms or problems.

That is no joke..

[pcosmar]

Thats really a different topic. Unfortunately, cases are won or lost in this country based on who has the most money. Odds are a mentally unstable person is not going to have the resources to take on these people.

But that doesn't change the fact that these doctors SHOULD be liable for the damages their medication causes.

Odds are that a mentally stable person would not be portrayed as such by the media and the public relations that would be painting him as a drooling imbecile.
"He must be psychotic or why would he be on pills."

Yes they should be responsible..

There are a great many things that "should be".

[John F Kennedy III]

And yet crime rates are actually falling.

Says who?

[dannno]

And yet crime rates are actually falling. Hard to reconcile......

Not really. The majority of crime and fraud, in dollar amounts, is committed by the elite/wealthy.

Most of the crimes you are referring to (measurable community crime rates, personal property crimes, etc) are committed because those people are poor and desperate, not because they are psychotic.

[tttppp]

Odds are that a mentally stable person would not be portrayed as such by the media and the public relations that would be painting him as a drooling imbecile.
"He must be psychotic or why would he be on pills."

Yes they should be responsible..

There are a great many things that "should be".

Too bad there are not lawyers who specialize in this. They could make a fortune taking doctors to court for side effects from medications. Really, how could doctors justify some of their recommendations? "Oh, the drug company paid me to prescribe it." I'm sure that would go over really well with a jury.

[pcosmar]

Too bad there are not lawyers who specialize in this. They could make a fortune taking doctors to court for side effects from medications. Really, how could doctors justify some of their recommendations? "Oh, the drug company paid me to prescribe it." I'm sure that would go over really well with a jury.

I think you would find the drug companies are contributing to defense of the doctors..

You do realize that no one was ever arrested nor charged for the crimes of MK Ultra. NO One.

[dannno]

But that doesn't change the fact that these doctors SHOULD be liable for the damages their medication causes.

I completely disagree. How on earth can you possibly prove if a medication caused a crazy person to act crazy, or whether they were simply acting crazy because they are psychotic!?

You'd have ALL doctors going out of business, because inevitably ALL doctors will treat a patient who experiences a negative outcome and has the potential to make money through lawsuits. So lawyers will get on board and take advantage.

The real problem is that the medical industry runs the FDA and has essentially made it illegal for anybody to advertise natural products, which are safer and more effective, as being effective cures or medications for these conditions.

No, lawsuits are not the answer. The answer is the free market. If a doctor is successfully treating patients with mental psychosis using plants and other inexpensive natural methods then insurance companies will see that they can provide a cost savings to their bottom line and direct their customers towards the more effective doctors by giving them a lower co-pay or only using those particular doctors.

The reason that isn't happening today has got to be at least 10 if not 100 fold.. but all of them have to do with the government controlling the insurance and medical industries with monopoly players acting to protect their industry and products.

[tttppp]

I think you would find the drug companies are contributing to defense of the doctors..

You do realize that no one was ever arrested nor charged for the crimes of MK Ultra. NO One.

Who's MK Ultra?

A competent lawyer would be able to point out who is paying for the defense of the doctors. That would really look bad if the doctor's defense was paid for by the drug companies. You might as well put a big GUILTY sign on the doctor. All that money cannot win cases for these doctors. What it does is drag the process out, and force the patient and his lawyers to spend more money. If they have the money to stay with the drug companies, the drug company or doctor will eventually lose the case. Unfortunately, the patient cannot recover the legal fees even if he wins, so at some point he has to make a decision as to whether or not its profitable to continue the case. Thats where these big companies get you. They make you spend so much money, its not even profitable.

[Jingles]

I don't believe a drug causes "murder" as much as I believe guns "cause" murder...

[tttppp]

I completely disagree. How on earth can you possibly prove if a medication caused a crazy person to act crazy, or whether they were simply acting crazy because they are psychotic!?

You'd have ALL doctors going out of business, because inevitably ALL doctors will treat a patient who experiences a negative outcome and has the potential to make money through lawsuits. So lawyers will get on board and take advantage.

The real problem is that the medical industry runs the FDA and has essentially made it illegal for anybody to advertise natural products, which are safer and more effective, as being effective cures or medications for these conditions.

No, lawsuits are not the answer. The answer is the free market. If a doctor is successfully treating patients with mental psychosis using plants and other inexpensive natural methods then insurance companies will see that they can provide a cost savings to their bottom line and direct their customers towards the more effective doctors by giving them a lower co-pay or only using those particular doctors.

The reason that isn't happening today has got to be at least 10 if not 100 fold.. but all of them have to do with the government controlling the insurance and medical industries with monopoly players acting to protect their industry and products.

Why would it be a bad thing if these doctors went out of business? Without these doctors scamming their patients, the natural medicine industry would get a big boost.

If a doctor's only explanation for giving a medication was that they were paid to give it out, you better believe they are liable for any damages it causes. I've been to some incompetent doctors before. Believe me, they are just guessing. And after they guess wrong 9 or 10 times, they want to guess more. The world would be a better place if these doctors just jumped of a cliff. Patients don't need to go to doctors who just take guesses for them. The need to go to doctors who know what they are doing.

[Jingles]

>The alleged shooting of a police officer in Austin by a man taking the anti-anxiety drug Xanax is just one of a plethora of recent incidents fueled by anti-depressant pharmaceuticals – an epidemic of mania that has swept the country.

Alprazolam is an anti-anxiety medication not a anti-depressant. It functions on the GABAb receptor similar to alcohol except alcohol effects all/majority of GABA receptors. This would be like stating that if I drink so I suddenly cause crime. Not trying to be a dick, but drugs themselves don't cause these things to occur. I've done my fair share of Xanax in my life and it has never caused me to kill people, commit violent acts, etc... This it what bothers me about infowars articles about drugs is they seem to blame the drugs themselves (and they are being pushed by X, Y, Z) so suddenly all pharms are bad. Benzos are very helpful to people with anxiety issues. These aren't SSRI's, and etc... that actually screw with serotonin levels permanently.

Yes the pharm companies are inbed with the government. Yes the drug war is unjust. Of course, but drugs themselves don't cause crime, but people cause crime. These articles just annoy me who was a former drug user in the the past and has done/looked into every recreational drug under the sun. Xanax doesn't make you kill people as much as drinking makes you kill people. It's about the people themselves and not the drug.

[No Free Beer]

Well no shit. He was mixing it with, what seems to be, a lot of alcohol.

[dannno]

Why would it be a bad thing if these doctors went out of business? Without these doctors scamming their patients, the natural medicine industry would get a big boost.

If a doctor's only explanation for giving a medication was that they were paid to give it out, you better believe they are liable for any damages it causes. I've been to some incompetent doctors before. Believe me, they are just guessing. And after they guess wrong 9 or 10 times, they want to guess more. The world would be a better place if these doctors just jumped of a cliff. Patients don't need to go to doctors who just take guesses for them. The need to go to doctors who know what they are doing.

What I'm saying is that in your situation those who provide natural medicines could also be sued by people who are psychotic who have psychotic episodes while on natural substances.. If the doctor is selling the substances to the patients, then they are essentially "being paid" to give it out to the patient. But the psychotic reaction they have could even be from a reaction from an old prescription medication that was taken over a year prior, but the natural medication gets blamed because it is really impossible to trace the blame like that in a court of law.

My point is that the reason the FDA exists is to keep an un-level playing field against natural medicines, and I believe if you put these medications on a level playing field then you'd have natural medicines win out in most cases and you wouldn't have the issues we are having today.

It's sort of like Ron Paul's position on immigration - he believes that if we took away the govt. incentives for illegals to come here, then those who came here for the most part would be welcomed because they would be providing lower cost labor which would benefit everyone.

[Jingles]

Well no shit. He was mixing it with, what seems to be, a lot of alcohol.

And that is called synergy (Increasing the effects of one specific type of drug with a drug of the same type). But having multiple of drugs in your system doesn't make you kill people. It has much, much more to do with the personality of the individual as well as situations. My body has at times contained more depressant class drugs than it should have survived, but I never killed anyone, violated anyones rights, stolen things, etc... I have blackedout enough in my life to understand that it really isn't about "blackouts" or using a bunch of drugs but how you are as a person (I've probably had a years worth of "blackouts in my life or more in regards to total time of my life" and I have never expressed an ounce of violence during such, nor have I been in a fight, etc....). If an individual is violent that will be more expressed if their inhibitions are lowered. That doesn't somehow make drug use/drinking bad as much as the fact that the specific individual is just a violent individual.

Like I said, it is not a drug as much as the individual.

[PaulConventionWV]

I have no idea. But I am not aware, nor does the article cite, ANY evidence that anyone has demonstrated even a significant correlation between "these types of incidents" (whatever THAT means) and the use of xanax. So when the article jumps to the conclusion, repeated in the thread title, that certain drugs are causing murder etc. that is pure speculation.

There are literally millions of people who take xanax without acting violently, and many incidents of violence recorded through history before xanax was invented. So, if you want to be a careful, critical thinker, the ONLY thing you can conclude from this anecdotal evidence is that xanax and tequila do not prevent violence 100%. Anything beyond that is unsupported.

You are, of course, free to speculate at will. But don't pretend it is science.

Who's talking about science? Do you have to have a peer-reviewed study for EVERYTHING you believe?

[DerailingDaTrain]

My brother is bi-polar and takes several medications for it. Was he completely batshit insane and a violent individual before? Most definitely. Did the medicine make him better? Hell no. It made him worse and he ended up incarcerated.

Not everyone who takes a medication is going to flip out and kill someone though. Some people do actually need these drugs to function normally in society and without them would be flipping out and killing people (withdrawal has already been discussed in this thread which when coupled with the problems the have already makes for a really bad situation).

[PaulConventionWV]

I would be surprised if xanax had any effect on these people. Its a relatively safe drug (although there really is no such thing). Anti-depressants are another story. They can severely fuck up your liver and kidneys, can cause impotence and severe weight gain. They are not something you want to take. To top that off, they really are not that effective, and in many cases they are reported to have the exact opposite effect of what was intended.

The kicker is that it says this right on the bottle many times. Drugs used to treat mental disorders and depression have "suicidal thoughts" as a possible side effect. Who would have thought that something that can cause suicidal thoughts is used to treat depression?

Also, can someone explain to me why, if suicidal tendencies are a LISTED side effect, homicidal tendencies aren't also possible? Why is it so far-fetched to think that a type of medicine that is known to cause suicidal behavior might also cause them to direct that violent behavior toward others? It's not listed of course, but it seems absolutely childish to argue that it's okay when something causes suicide, but not okay when something causes homicide. Just imagine if one of the commercials for these drugs said, "Tell your doctor if you have thoughts of homicide."

[tttppp]

What I'm saying is that in your situation those who provide natural medicines could also be sued by people who are psychotic who have psychotic episodes while on natural substances.. If the doctor is selling the substances to the patients, then they are essentially "being paid" to give it out to the patient. But the psychotic reaction they have could even be from a reaction from an old prescription medication that was taken over a year prior, but the natural medication gets blamed because it is really impossible to trace the blame like that in a court of law.

My point is that the reason the FDA exists is to keep an un-level playing field against natural medicines, and I believe if you put these medications on a level playing field then you'd have natural medicines win out in most cases and you wouldn't have the issues we are having today.

It's sort of like Ron Paul's position on immigration - he believes that if we took away the govt. incentives for illegals to come here, then those who came here for the most part would be welcomed because they would be providing lower cost labor which would benefit everyone.

I've never had a negative reaction to herbal medicine from a competent provider. Drinking herbal tea can be unpleasant and sometime uncomfortable, but it always makes you better. There are never any side effects.

I don't think anyone should be automatically sued just because someone acted out on medication. But the doctor should have a better explanation for why he prescribed the medication than "oh I got paid to prescribe it" or "I was just guessing". The doctor should understand the patient's health problems, and should know how their medication will react with him. Without doing that they are committing malpractice.

A herbal medicine provider may be getting paid for the herbs, but their is an infinite number of combinations of herbs that they can give to patients. Herbal providers don't give out specific combinations of herbs because the herb manufacturers are paying them.

[tttppp]

The kicker is that it says this right on the bottle many times. Drugs used to treat mental disorders and depression have "suicidal thoughts" as a possible side effect. Who would have thought that something that can cause suicidal thoughts is used to treat depression?

Also, can someone explain to me why, if suicidal tendencies are a LISTED side effect, homicidal tendencies aren't also possible? Why is it so far-fetched to think that a type of medicine that is known to cause suicidal behavior might also cause them to direct that violent behavior toward others? It's not listed of course, but it seems absolutely childish to argue that it's okay when something causes suicide, but not okay when something causes homicide. Just imagine if one of the commercials for these drugs said, "Tell your doctor if you have thoughts of homicide."

I've tried these drugs before and I can tell you they can definitely lead to homicide. I obviously didn't kill anyone on these drugs, but the reaction I got from some of them was so horrible I can see why someone would. On some of these drugs, I couldn't even tolerate one dose. Imagine what these drugs can do to someone who's been on them weeks or months.

[PaulConventionWV]

My brother is bi-polar and takes several medications for it. Was he completely batshit insane and a violent individual before? Most definitely. Did the medicine make him better? Hell no. It made him worse and he ended up incarcerated.

Not everyone who takes a medication is going to flip out and kill someone though. Some people do actually need these drugs to function normally in society and without them would be flipping out and killing people (withdrawal has already been discussed in this thread which when coupled with the problems the have already makes for a really bad situation).

I think there are other ways. Nobody needs the drugs. If I thought that taking these crazy drugs and making yourself a zombie was the only way to live for what passes as a life in this society, then I wouldn't want to live much longer. Fortunately, through my episodes of depression and anxiety that I dealth with, I overcame them through positive mental stimuli and relaxation. You don't need drugs. There are natural medicines that are way more effective, and you can always coach yourself out of negative behavior. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's usually better than dealing with drugs like these. It may be easy to take these drugs, but they can get you in a lot of trouble that you never would have foreseen. Even if you take them as prescribed, the fact that you are taking them can contribute to weird behavior. If someone is on more than one drug, that can have very dangerous side effects. The side effects are even listed on the bottle, so they apply whether or not you are withdrawing from the medication. The medication itself can also have bad consequences, although withdrawal often increases the manifestation of these "side effects." It depends on how long they were taking them, as well, because if you take them long enough, it can make you lose contact with reality, and the cumulative effects of the years of altering your mind and increasing the dosage to achieve the same effects can cause you to snap eventually. For some it's relatively soon, for others it takes longer.

They should really put on the label: "Side effects include psychotic rage, murder and/or suicide."

[dannno]

I've never had a negative reaction to herbal medicine from a competent provider. Drinking herbal tea can be unpleasant and sometime uncomfortable, but it always makes you better. There are never any side effects.

I've never had any long-term negative reactions to herbal medications either, tho sometimes detoxing and such can cause negative short-term effects. Most natural medicines are pretty benign, other than their properties to help treat the condition they are intended for.

But the point isn't whether natural medicines cause negative reactions, though, the point is simply that negative reactions can be blamed on natural medications and you could have doctors end up being sued for no reason other than the patient and lawyers needs money.

What if a patient does their own research and finds out that a certain natural medication would benefit them, don't you think they should have the right to go purchase that medication without excessive hindrance? For example, I find out that plant X will cure my condition Y, condition Y being a condition that may be relatively difficult/expensive to diagnose on-sight. Maybe the symptoms occur sporadically and maybe it is expensive for doctors to detect. But I know I have the condition and I know what is going to cure it. If you setup a system where these types of lawsuits are occurring, then the only people who will sell me these substances will also charge me for a diagnosis.. If the diagnosis is expensive then it could substantially raise the cost of my treatment.

[tttppp]

I've never had any long-term negative reactions to herbal medications either, tho sometimes detoxing and such can cause negative short-term effects. Most natural medicines are pretty benign, other than their properties to help treat the condition they are intended for.

But the point isn't whether natural medicines cause negative reactions, though, the point is simply that negative reactions can be blamed on natural medications and you could have doctors end up being sued for no reason other than the patient and lawyers needs money.

What if a patient does their own research and finds out that a certain natural medication would benefit them, don't you think they should have the right to go purchase that medication without excessive hindrance? For example, I find out that plant X will cure my condition Y, condition Y being a condition that may be relatively difficult/expensive to diagnose on-sight. Maybe the symptoms occur sporadically and maybe it is expensive for doctors to detect. But I know I have the condition and I know what is going to cure it. If you setup a system where these types of lawsuits are occurring, then the only people who will sell me these substances will also charge me for a diagnosis.. If the diagnosis is expensive then it could substantially raise the cost of my treatment.

Diagnosis is not expensive and only take about 5 minutes. The herbologist I saw never even charged for an initial consultation. Its the medical doctors that lead people to believe that diagnosis is expensive. In reality, you should not be taking herbs without consulting an herbologist (unless you are one).

I really don't see why we shouldn't remove the barrier to entry for lawsuits. This will force a lot of incompetent practitioners our of business, and only the strong will survive. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

[dannno]

Diagnosis is not expensive and only take about 5 minutes. The herbologist I saw never even charged for an initial consultation. Its the medical doctors that lead people to believe that diagnosis is expensive. In reality, you should not be taking herbs without consulting an herbologist (unless you are one).

I really don't see why we shouldn't remove the barrier to entry for lawsuits. This will force a lot of incompetent practitioners our of business, and only the strong will survive. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

Well that (bold) is great for Chinese Herbal Medicine, it will help it to better compete in a truly free market by keeping expenses low. The medication itself is cheap, so why does Chinese herbal medicine need any more advantages to out-compete western medicine in a level playing field?

The problem is that I'm not convinced Chinese herbal medicine necessarily has ALL the solutions to EVERY ailment. Maybe they do, it wouldn't surprise me that much, but the fact is I should be able to be my own primary care physician. I should take responsibility over my own health care. If I give that responsibility out to someone else, then I should be responsible for the consequences. The only time a doctor should be responsible is if they signed a contract that they would be liable if something happened to me. Maybe some doctors would actually include that in their contracts to attract customers, a sort of 'guarantee' for your good health. But I don't want the herbologist on the corner getting sued because somebody bought an herb that has legitimate medicinal use and used it incorrectly then had an adverse reaction, allergic or otherwise, when the next person could walk in, buy the same medication, educate themselves on it's use and it could save their life.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't believe a drug causes "murder" as much as I believe guns "cause" murder...

A gun, sitting on the table, fully loaded, can not enter your bloodstream, disrupt the decision making processes in your brain and cause you to act in ways that you normally would not.

ETA - Unless someone wants to argue that it causes an out of control endorphin rush or something.

You've never seen an angry, out of control, drunk?

[Anti Federalist]

Using this reasoning nothing causing anything.

This.

Correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

But it can.

Everything in the universe has a cause and effect.

[heavenlyboy34]

Americans' addiction to dangerous SSRI’s hits crisis levels
fixed. Land masses (countries) don't have thoughts or emotions.

[Brian4Liberty]

A gun, sitting on the table, fully loaded, can not enter your bloodstream, disrupt the decision making processes in your brain and cause you to act in ways that you normally would not.


Well said.

"Drugs have side effects, Mkay?"

1384

[John F Kennedy III]

Not really. The majority of crime and fraud, in dollar amounts, is committed by the elite/wealthy.

Most of the crimes you are referring to (measurable community crime rates, personal property crimes, etc) are committed because those people are poor and desperate, not because they are psychotic.

And they under report the crime rates, among the rates of many other things, to make it appear things are better than they really are.

[tttppp]

Well that (bold) is great for Chinese Herbal Medicine, it will help it to better compete in a truly free market by keeping expenses low. The medication itself is cheap, so why does Chinese herbal medicine need any more advantages to out-compete western medicine in a level playing field?

The problem is that I'm not convinced Chinese herbal medicine necessarily has ALL the solutions to EVERY ailment. Maybe they do, it wouldn't surprise me that much, but the fact is I should be able to be my own primary care physician. I should take responsibility over my own health care. If I give that responsibility out to someone else, then I should be responsible for the consequences. The only time a doctor should be responsible is if they signed a contract that they would be liable if something happened to me. Maybe some doctors would actually include that in their contracts to attract customers, a sort of 'guarantee' for your good health. But I don't want the herbologist on the corner getting sued because somebody bought an herb that has legitimate medicinal use and used it incorrectly then had an adverse reaction, allergic or otherwise, when the next person could walk in, buy the same medication, educate themselves on it's use and it could save their life.

In America its hard for good Chinese traditional medicine practitioners to stand out because there are so many fakes out there, and most Americans just go to acupuncturists and herbologists for the experience, not necessarily to get something cured. If these fakes got exposed for what they are and got sued, that would open the door for the better ones to get more customers and make more money. More customers would then go to the better practitioners, thus more people benefit.

I think you bring up a good point. Doctors should sign a contract taking responsibility for the patient. Although, if that happened, the patient would be obligated to follow the doctors recommendations completely. They'd have to take the medication as prescribed, follow the diet recommended, etc. If the patient does all that and has problems, the doctor is obviously liable. However if the patient took too much of the medication against the doctors orders, then he has no claim. However, even if that did happen, it wouldn't cause the same damage as some of these drugs do.

Why would I want to take medication from a doctor if they are not willing to sign a contract like that?

[John F Kennedy III]

I think you would find the drug companies are contributing to defense of the doctors..

You do realize that no one was ever arrested nor charged for the crimes of MK Ultra. NO One.

THAT.

[Pericles]

My brother is bi-polar and takes several medications for it. Was he completely batshit insane and a violent individual before? Most definitely. Did the medicine make him better? Hell no. It made him worse and he ended up incarcerated.

Not everyone who takes a medication is going to flip out and kill someone though. Some people do actually need these drugs to function normally in society and without them would be flipping out and killing people (withdrawal has already been discussed in this thread which when coupled with the problems the have already makes for a really bad situation).

Sometimes they kill themselves. That won't show up as a crime stat either.

[phill4paul]

Sometimes they kill themselves. That won't show up as a crime stat either.

And sometimes the very 'cocktails' that they take do a job on them. It shows up as an 'overdose' or aggrevated on coroner reports though. Even though they took the 'script as issued.

[Anti Federalist]

And how many of these over prescribed poor bastards would have been just fine if they could have smoked a joint or two and chilled?

[phill4paul]

And how many of these over prescribed poor bastards would have been just fine if they could have smoked a joint or two and chilled?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw

[angelatc]

M
I don't really care one way of the other, but you might want to understand the fallacies in the narratives humans create around cause and effect.

Most people who get anti-depressants were already psychologically disturbed.

[angelatc]

And they under report the crime rates, among the rates of many other things, to make it appear things are better than they really are.

Whatever. All I know is that I am old enough to remember when crimes rates were higher, and there was more crime. There's no way to disprove the bizarre conspiracy theory stuff - "There's more crime but they're not telling us!" - but I'm not going to believe it, because from what I see, violent crimes are indeed trending down.

Of course, the Nancy Grace effect has all of the soccer Moms believing just the opposite.

[Anti Federalist]

Whatever. All I know is that I am old enough to remember when crimes rates were higher, and there was more crime. There's no way to disprove the bizarre conspiracy theory stuff - "There's more crime but they're not telling us!" - but I'm not going to believe it, because from what I see, violent crimes are indeed trending down.

Of course, the Nancy Grace effect has all of the soccer Moms believing just the opposite.

With more people in prison than other place on earth, crime had better be going down.

In fact, for all the people we jail and execute, you'd think this would be a crime free paradise.

[Anti Federalist]

Part of what's happening is nothing but a downside of peak.

http://kondratiefflongwave.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ushomicide20101.jpg?w=640&h=415

[donnay]

SSRI Stories - http://www.ssristories.com/index.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRP7OpRgc1Q&feature=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UBI8HGvvSo&feature=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUA7I5UVSJw&feature=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNgwx6ZSALQ&feature=relmfu



*WARNING Graphic Images*



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmmMRLkCTE&feature=related

Enter Sandman audio content muted by the lars ulrich whiner foundation. ;-o
SSRI, antidepressant, addiction, side effects, paroxetine, seroxat, cold turkey, withdrawal, taper, discontinuation, teen suicide, panic attacks, anxiety, hallucinations. Anger, rage, Adult suicide, GSK, paxil deaths, mental health, Pregnancy, birth defects, FDA, weight gain, psychotropic drugs, defective medication, Poison. Suicidal thoughts, homicidal thoughts. Hospitalization. Divorce

[BlackTerrel]

Part of what's happening is nothing but a downside of peak.

http://kondratiefflongwave.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ushomicide20101.jpg?w=640&h=415

Yes but if these drugs really were causing this mass epidemic then we wouldn't be at less homicides than 1930.

[Sjuguy]

Doctors give out these prescriptions like candy. It's terrible. Trying to get off prescription drugs like Effexor is almost as bad as trying to get off of Heroin from stories I have read. Not to mention Xanax, if taken regularly, can become extremely addicting. I wouldn't recommend getting on anti-depression or anti-anxiety medicine. Try counseling and find other ways to deal with depression and anxiety. These medicines are extremely hard to come off of.

[donnay]

Here's a true story...

I knew a women who wound up taking anti-depressants for about five years, she was diagnosed with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). She got into a horrific accident, where an 18 wheeler T-boned her vehicle. She was in the hospital for nearly a month. She had no medical insurance and her hospital bill were astronomical.

When she finally started to get better, one of her family members suggested she take the trucking company to court. The police report was in her favor, she had eye witnesses who saw the accident stating that she was not to blame. So she got an attorney, they filed a suit against the trucking company who happened to be a very big company that had a mule team of attorneys at their disposal.

To make a long story short she lost her case because the trucking company's lawyers subpoenaed her medical records, found out she was taking prozac. Because she was on an psychotropic drug, the lawyers convince everyone that these drugs alter peoples minds, make them much more manic and much more depressed and that she was the reason the truck lost control and slammed into her. The jury believed the defendants attorneys---she lost everything.

[Anti Federalist]

Here's a true story...

I knew a women who wound up taking anti-depressants for about five years, she was diagnosed with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD). She got into a horrific accident, where an 18 wheeler T-boned her vehicle. She was in the hospital for nearly a month. She had no medical insurance and her hospital bill were astronomical.

When she finally started to get better, one of her family members suggested she take the trucking company to court. The police report was in her favor, she had eye witnesses who saw the accident stating that she was not to blame. So she got an attorney, they filed a suit against the trucking company who happened to be a very big company that had a mule team of attorneys at their disposal.

To make a long story short she lost her case because the trucking company's lawyers subpoenaed her medical records, found out she was taking prozac. Because she was on an psychotropic drug, the lawyers convince everyone that these drugs alter peoples minds, make them much more manic and much more depressed and that she was the reason the truck lost control and slammed into her. The jury believed the defendants attorneys---she lost everything.

Mutual acquaintance.

True story.

[dillo]

xanax is not an ssri

[Anti Federalist]

Yes but if these drugs really were causing this mass epidemic then we wouldn't be at less homicides than 1930.

Wait until the shit hits the fan, and the 20-30 day supply of these drugs on the shelf dries up, and 70 million people go cold turkey off these things.

The zombie apocalypse, for real.

[Sjuguy]

Wait until the shit hits the fan, and the 20-30 day supply of these drugs on the shelf dries up, and 70 million people go cold turkey off these things.

The zombie apocalypse, for real.

Literally people can go crazy if they cold turkey an SSRI. Brain Zaps. OUCH.

[PaulConventionWV]

A gun, sitting on the table, fully loaded, can not enter your bloodstream, disrupt the decision making processes in your brain and cause you to act in ways that you normally would not.

ETA - Unless someone wants to argue that it causes an out of control endorphin rush or something.

You've never seen an angry, out of control, drunk?

I suppose it could, theoretically, go off all by itself and kill someone, but the chances aren't very high of that ever happening. That would truly be a freak accident. Apparently, it's enough for the gun control advocates, although gun control was never about safety and all about controlling people, so the argument may or may not hold sway over gun control advocates.

[donnay]

xanax is not an ssri


Xanax (Alprazolam) is a psychotropic drug. Psychotropic drugs alters peoples minds.

[PaulConventionWV]

Most people who get anti-depressants were already psychologically disturbed.

This argument has been rehashed over and over again. It's quite clear that what happens to these people is, by no means, normal, even for them.

What frustrates me is when people can say, dead serious, that most psychotropic drugs carry the risk of increasing suicidal thoughts and tendencies and then tell you straight-faced that there is no chance it will also lead to homicidal tendencies.

[BlackTerrel]

Wait until the shit hits the fan, and the 20-30 day supply of these drugs on the shelf dries up, and 70 million people go cold turkey off these things.

The zombie apocalypse, for real.

... So you agree then that these drugs have not caused an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder?

Look I'm not a fan of over prescription of drugs. I think there is a small percentage of people who have a chemical imbalance who benefit from these and other drugs. I think there is a larger percentage of people who are fine and would be better suited by eating healthier and working out - but instead due to laziness of themselves and doctors end up on these drugs instead.

I'm not in a panic about an army of zombies out to kill me. What's with all the fear mongering lately?

[tttppp]

Xanax (Alprazolam) is a psychotropic drug. Psychotropic drugs alters peoples minds.

Thats what the theory is. But they don't work. They are just as ineffective at altering your mind as anti-depressants are at reducing depression.

[tttppp]

Most people who get anti-depressants were already psychologically disturbed.

In theory, anti-depressants are for people who are chronically depressed and they can't figure out why. Many times however, doctors are handing out anti-depressants for things happening in the real world. For example, if you have a hard time finding work and are depressed, a lot of doctors will prescribe anti-depressants. Now I'm pretty sure most people here can figure out anti-depressants are not the answer for that problem. A better solution would be to help these people find a career counselor or help them go back to school. Not popping pills.

Additionally, anti-depressants don't work...to top that off they cause numerous health problems. I'd rather live with mental problems, than live with mental problems and physical problems.

[donnay]

Thats what the theory is. But they don't work. They are just as ineffective at altering your mind as anti-depressants are at reducing depression.

Psychotropic drug: Any drug capable of affecting the mind, emotions, and behavior. Some legal drugs, such as lithium for bipolar disorder, are psychotropic. Many illicit drugs, such as cocaine, are also psychotropic. Also known as psychodynamic drug.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=30807

[John F Kennedy III]

And how many of these over prescribed poor bastards would have been just fine if they could have smoked a joint or two and chilled?

At least 90%.

[tttppp]

Psychotropic drug: Any drug capable of affecting the mind, emotions, and behavior. Some legal drugs, such as lithium for bipolar disorder, are psychotropic. Many illicit drugs, such as cocaine, are also psychotropic. Also known as psychodynamic drug.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=30807

What does this have to do with what I posted?

[John F Kennedy III]

Most people who get anti-depressants were already psychologically disturbed.

False.

[donnay]

What does this have to do with what I posted?


Because they do alter your mind, and, in most cases, not in a good way.

[donnay]

False.

I second the motion.

[tttppp]

Because they do alter you mind, and, in most cases, not in a good way.

In the sense that they fuck up your body, and you have the stress in dealing with that, yeah they do effect your mind...in a bad way. However, they do not improve your thinking at all, as they advertised. Complete fraud.

[Anti Federalist]

... So you agree then that these drugs have not caused an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder?

Look I'm not a fan of over prescription of drugs. I think there is a small percentage of people who have a chemical imbalance who benefit from these and other drugs. I think there is a larger percentage of people who are fine and would be better suited by eating healthier and working out - but instead due to laziness of themselves and doctors end up on these drugs instead.

I'm not in a panic about an army of zombies out to kill me. What's with all the fear mongering lately?

It's a tongue in cheek cautionary tale.

Why is coldly assessing worse case scenarios "fear mongering"?

It is what it is. Same as the cop injustices. Is it likely that you'll be beaten, shot or tased to death by a cop? No. Is the increase in incidents indicating a trend in the wrong direction? Yes, without a doubt, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is an uptick of random and multiple shootings, especially by kids and teenagers that probably would not have happened, had it not been for an adverse reaction to these drugs.

[John F Kennedy III]

Whatever. All I know is that I am old enough to remember when crimes rates were higher, and there was more crime. There's no way to disprove the bizarre conspiracy theory stuff - "There's more crime but they're not telling us!" - but I'm not going to believe it, because from what I see, violent crimes are indeed trending down.

Of course, the Nancy Grace effect has all of the soccer Moms believing just the opposite.

Lol wow.

[John F Kennedy III]

Gotta love the establishment worshippers around here. If you don't, they'll pretend you're a nutjob conspiracy theorist.

[PaulConventionWV]

In the sense that they fuck up your body, and you have the stress in dealing with that, yeah they do effect your mind...in a bad way. However, they do not improve your thinking at all, as they advertised. Complete fraud.

"Altering" the mind is not the same thing as "improving" it. Donnay was specifying that these drugs do "alter" your mind in the sense that they change it in some way.

[PaulConventionWV]

It's a tongue in cheek cautionary tale.

Why is coldly assessing worse case scenarios "fear mongering"?

It is what it is. Same as the cop injustices. Is it likely that you'll be beaten, shot or tased to death by a cop? No. Is the increase in incidents indicating a trend in the wrong direction? Yes, without a doubt, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is an uptick of random and multiple shootings, especially by kids and teenagers that probably would not have happened, had it not been for an adverse reaction to these drugs.

The "fear mongering" is the result of a real and present danger, not made-up WMDs or similar fairy tales.

[Chrysamere]

Gotta love the establishment worshippers around here. If you don't, they'll pretend you're a nutjob conspiracy theorist.

But you are a nutjob conspiracy theorist...

I won't love you any less for it though ;]

[tod evans]

Who here has actually consumed these drugs?

I stopped doing "downers" in the late 70's so I have no personal experience.

I'm pretty sure that even these "new" drugs have some similar effects, calm, slowed thought, reduced inhibitions to name a few....

And like the "old downers" I'm pretty sure withdrawal is a bitch!....Scattered thought, depression, anxiety etc.

In the old days 20-30mg of Valium and a few drinks would have strangers telling stories about your behavior weeks after the fact, all unbeknownst to you.

I'm firmly entrenched in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions, if you choose to ingest a chemical then don't blame the chemical for your behavior. Don't blame the doctors for providing a prescription that you asked for.

All of this feel-good, it's not my fault propaganda is BS.......if you eat downers you'll go down, if you eat speed you'll go up, acid..you'll trip....In the end you ate the damn drugs so own up for your behavior

Now parents who permit doctors to prescribe either uppers or downers for their kids are playing Russian roulette with their kids life! I am 100% against medicating children for behavior problems.

In the end the "murder and mayhem" must be blamed on the people who choose to ingest these drugs not on the doctors or drug companies.

This failure to take responsibility will only result in more unnecessary legislation and more loss of freedom!

[PaulConventionWV]

Who here has actually consumed these drugs?

I stopped doing "downers" in the late 70's so I have no personal experience.

I'm pretty sure that even these "new" drugs have some similar effects, calm, slowed thought, reduced inhibitions to name a few....

And like the "old downers" I'm pretty sure withdrawal is a bitch!....Scattered thought, depression, anxiety etc.

In the old days 20-30mg of Valium and a few drinks would have strangers telling stories about your behavior weeks after the fact, all unbeknownst to you.

I'm firmly entrenched in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions, if you choose to ingest a chemical then don't blame the chemical for your behavior. Don't blame the doctors for providing a prescription that you asked for.

All of this feel-good, it's not my fault propaganda is BS.......if you eat downers you'll go down, if you eat speed you'll go up, acid..you'll trip....In the end you ate the damn drugs so own up for your behavior

Now parents who permit doctors to prescribe either uppers or downers for their kids are playing Russian roulette with their kids life! I am 100% against medicating children for behavior problems.

In the end the "murder and mayhem" must be blamed on the people who choose to ingest these drugs not on the doctors or drug companies.

This failure to take responsibility will only result in more unnecessary legislation and more loss of freedom!

"Eat" is kind of a funny word to use in this context.

[tod evans]

"Eat" is kind of a funny word to use in this context.

Feel free to substitute snort, smoke or bang if it applies...

[Pericles]

In theory, anti-depressants are for people who are chronically depressed and they can't figure out why. Many times however, doctors are handing out anti-depressants for things happening in the real world. For example, if you have a hard time finding work and are depressed, a lot of doctors will prescribe anti-depressants. Now I'm pretty sure most people here can figure out anti-depressants are not the answer for that problem. A better solution would be to help these people find a career counselor or help them go back to school. Not popping pills.

Additionally, anti-depressants don't work...to top that off they cause numerous health problems. I'd rather live with mental problems, than live with mental problems and physical problems.

They did that with my GF - gave her a max dose of Cymbalta. Before the scip ran out, she killed herself. She never should have been on that stuff (I know someone else, bipolar his whole life, who was on the same dose and it did him some good).

[AuH20]

File this one under the obvious. Altering brain chemistry through excessive use of psychoactive drugs is not something I would recommend. I had a friend who destroyed his sense of wellbeing via excessive drug use, thanks in large part due to the depletion of dopamine.

[donnay]

In the sense that they fuck up your body, and you have the stress in dealing with that, yeah they do effect your mind...in a bad way. However, they do not improve your thinking at all, as they advertised. Complete fraud.

What I am saying is that if you take a mind altering drug you may do things, whether good or bad, without even knowing it. It screws with peoples minds in ways that many people do not even have recollections of what they did or are doing.

They tell people not to drive drunk--correct? Because it impairs their perception and alters their mind. Some drugs that are prescribe have warning labels on it not to drive or use heavy machinery--correct? Well when you take a psychotropic drug there are no warnings on it saying you should not drive, or use heavy machinery yet these drugs impair and alters peoples minds.

Many professionals like pilots and captains of ships are allowed to fly and navigate ships while on these psychotropics drugs. But they cannot smoke pot or drink before their shifts or while they work. Doesn't that seem quite contradictory?

[Sjuguy]

Who here has actually consumed these drugs?

I stopped doing "downers" in the late 70's so I have no personal experience.

I'm pretty sure that even these "new" drugs have some similar effects, calm, slowed thought, reduced inhibitions to name a few....

And like the "old downers" I'm pretty sure withdrawal is a bitch!....Scattered thought, depression, anxiety etc.

In the old days 20-30mg of Valium and a few drinks would have strangers telling stories about your behavior weeks after the fact, all unbeknownst to you.

I'm firmly entrenched in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions, if you choose to ingest a chemical then don't blame the chemical for your behavior. Don't blame the doctors for providing a prescription that you asked for.

All of this feel-good, it's not my fault propaganda is BS.......if you eat downers you'll go down, if you eat speed you'll go up, acid..you'll trip....In the end you ate the damn drugs so own up for your behavior

Now parents who permit doctors to prescribe either uppers or downers for their kids are playing Russian roulette with their kids life! I am 100% against medicating children for behavior problems.

In the end the "murder and mayhem" must be blamed on the people who choose to ingest these drugs not on the doctors or drug companies.

This failure to take responsibility will only result in more unnecessary legislation and more loss of freedom!

I have a prescription for Xanax for panic attacks. I don't take it more than once every 1-3 months. This stuff can become highly addicting, the feeling you get you can't really describe. Almost the ultimate relaxation. I also had a prescription for Effexor, took that for three days, and didn't even feel like a was living. Threw that prescription into the swamp and went through withdrawals after only taking it for 3 days.

[Acala]

Gotta love the establishment worshippers around here. If you don't, they'll pretend you're a nutjob conspiracy theorist.

It is beyond dispute that the government has spent billions of dollars developing mind altering drugs for nefarious uses. That almost certainly has involved the development of drugs that inclined people to murder and mayhem. I am with you up to that point.

But if the anti-depressant drugs being gobbled down by millions of Americans were the product of the government's black ops research, then all I can say is the taxpayers got ripped off again because the effect has been insignificant. Millions of people taking the drugs and a handful acting out violently is hardly what one would expect from the secret labs of the CIA, now is it?

Anti-depressants are, like most drugs, useful in some cases, not useful in most cases, and sometimes really bad. It isn't a conspiracy to destroy America. It is just the usual modern healthcare formula applied to mental illness with the predictable results.

[ItsTime]

List of Xanax side effects:

General Effects
1. Drowsiness
2. Dizziness
3. Decreased Alertness and Concentration
4. Lack of Coordination
5. Decreased Libido, Erection Problems
6. Depression, Disinhibition
7. Hypotension (low blood pressure)
8. Suppressed Breathing
9. Nausea
10. Changes in Appetite
11. Blurred Vision
12. Confusion
13. Euphoria
14. Depersonalization
15. Nightmares

Paradoxical Effects
1. Epilepsy
2. Aggression
3. Violence
4. Impulsivity
5. Irritability
6. Suicidal Behavior

Cognitive Effects
1. Cognitive Dysfunction
2. Visuospatial Memory
3. Visiomotor Coordination
4. Information Processing
5. Verbal Learning and Concentration

Long-Term Effects
1. Cognitive Dysfunction
2. Behavioural Problems
3. Feelings of Turmoil
4. Thinking Problems
5. Lack of Libido
3. Agoraphobia
4. Social Phobia
5. Increasing Anxiety and Depression
6. Loss of Interest in Leisure Pursuits and Hobby
7. Inability to Experience or Express Feelings
8. Altered Perception of Self, Environment and Relationships
9. Addiction


Case closed. They cause violence.

[Acala]

Who's talking about science? Do you have to have a peer-reviewed study for EVERYTHING you believe?

Human beings are, by nature, inclined towards developing post hoc causative narratives to make the world seem a more predictable place. I try to correct that bias in myself by not jumping to conclusions without adequate evidence. You may choose to do otherwise.

[DerailingDaTrain]

And how many of these over prescribed poor bastards would have been just fine if they could have smoked a joint or two and chilled?

To be honest this is what I do. I have the same problems as my brother and dad but I refuse to take any medication with horrible side effects. The harmful effects of prescription drugs have scared me into not wanting them in my body.

[tod evans]

To be honest this is what I do. I have the same problems as my brother and dad but I refuse to take any medication with horrible side effects. The harmful effects of prescription drugs have scared me into not wanting them in my body.

Personal responsibility..........What a refreshing outlook!

Now all that needs done is to decriminalize your choice of medication.

Others choose to eat legal pills, they need to accept responsibility for their behavior too.

[angelatc]

I think there is an uptick of random and multiple shootings, especially by kids and teenagers that probably would not have happened, had it not been for an adverse reaction to these drugs.

Fair enough, but the "probably" part isn't provable. I could easily argue that there probably would have been more of these incidents if mentally ill people weren't getting their medications. I blame society's tendency to continually look to place blame on external sources, instead of focusing on individual responsibility.

Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more. It's the fault of big pharma, big government, corporate America, MK ULtra, chem trails, the Jooz...but nobody is ever just fucking insane.

Not that I actually look for objective (or even rational) discussion on the subject of anything on the forums, but the argument is clearly biased and one sided when people simply refuse to consider that there are indeed millions of people who are indeed helped by the same drugs and methods that are demonized here, without any legitimate studies to support their claims.

I just hope that the young libertarians reading these threads don't decide not to seek help for their personal demons out of a baseless paranoid fear proposed by the vocal outliers of society.

[Kluge]

Not really. The majority of crime and fraud, in dollar amounts, is committed by the elite/wealthy.

Most of the crimes you are referring to (measurable community crime rates, personal property crimes, etc) are committed because those people are poor and desperate, not because they are psychotic.

Crimes committed out of poverty/desperation are also quite low. We don't have masses of people starving here. I'd think that a better guess as to why people rob, assault and murder is because they're not raised right, are addicted to something or are mentally ill (which includes sociopathy), or a combination of the three. Though I suppose that an addict could be considered desperate, but I don't think that's what you were talking about.

[tod evans]

Feeling out of sorts?

Just a tad antsy?

The tried-n-true 24hr lobotomy;

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/images/blog/thorazine.jpg

[donnay]

Fair enough, but the "probably" part isn't provable. I could easily argue that there probably would have been more of these incidents if mentally ill people weren't getting their medications. I blame society's tendency to continually look to place blame on external sources, instead of focusing on individual responsibility.

Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more. It's the fault of big pharma, big government, corporate America, MK ULtra, chem trails, the Jooz...but nobody is ever just fucking insane.

Not that I actually look for objective (or even rational) discussion on the subject of anything on the forums, but the argument is clearly biased and one sided when people simply refuse to consider that there are indeed millions of people who are indeed helped by the same drugs and methods that are demonized here, without any legitimate studies to support their claims.

I just hope that the young libertarians reading these threads don't decide not to seek help for their personal demons out of a baseless paranoid fear proposed by the vocal outliers of society.


The point is that with a lot of these instances the common denominator is psychotropic drugs! Go research a bit more about psychotropic drugs! Many people who were not depressed or psychotic were prescribed these drugs. After being on these drugs they had major mood swings, agitation and psychotic episodes. There are countless testimonies of these things happening. Pete posted them and I have posted SSRI stories, you need to take a look at it. It is truly glaring the problems that happen once people start taking these drugs.

Andrea Yates was on psychotropic drugs when she killed all five of her children! Susan Smith was on psychotropic when she drowned both her children! The list goes on and on...

[Anti Federalist]

Fair enough, but the "probably" part isn't provable. I could easily argue that there probably would have been more of these incidents if mentally ill people weren't getting their medications. I blame society's tendency to continually look to place blame on external sources, instead of focusing on individual responsibility.

I can't recall where I've ever said that I am not in favor of people taking responsibility for their actions.

For me, that's the point of bringing these incidents to light, to prove the damages that can be done.

Hell, I recall how the maker of Prozac, I can't recall the company off the top of my head, Eli Lilly perhaps, how they kicked screamed when they were forced to put a warning label on Prozac about the suicidal thoughts side effects. Side effects that were denied by the maker and the government for years, until it was proved.


Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more. It's the fault of big pharma, big government, corporate America, MK ULtra, chem trails, the Jooz...but nobody is ever just fucking insane.

Well, if one was truly insane, how is that the fault of the person? Something scrambled their brains. Maybe genetics, maybe a hormonal imbalance, maybe an injury, or maybe prescription pharmaceuticals or poisons in the food and water.


Not that I actually look for objective (or even rational) discussion on the subject of anything on the forums, but the argument is clearly biased and one sided when people simply refuse to consider that there are indeed millions of people who are indeed helped by the same drugs and methods that are demonized here, without any legitimate studies to support their claims.

Again, to get to the point of having "legitimate" studies done, there has to be some sort of outcry and agitation in order to get those studies done.


I just hope that the young libertarians reading these threads don't decide not to seek help for their personal demons out of a baseless paranoid fear proposed by the vocal outliers of society.

And I hope that:

A - Just like legal and cop advice that I talk about, that people do not base life saving decisions based solely on an anonymous internet posting and,

B - That people reading this, just like the legal and cop advice threads, take away a new understanding of the dangers posed and take it upon themselves to investigate further in order to make informed choices on some of the most serious decisions that they will ever make in life.

[JoshLowry]

Found this about flouride and prozac.

Is it basically the same flouride they put in our water? Seems that all fluoride compounds effect the thyroid per experiments in the '30's.

Anyone have better info/links on this relationship?

(http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-08-Prozac-Paxil-Fluorophenyl.htm)http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-08-Prozac-Paxil-Fluorophenyl.htm

[angelatc]

Well, if one was truly insane, how is that the fault of the person? Something scrambled their brains. Maybe genetics, maybe a hormonal imbalance, maybe an injury, or maybe prescription pharmaceuticals or poisons in the food and water.

But there have been insane people since there have been people on this planet. I can take you to the small Ohio town where my great-grandparents were born and show you the graves of a family that was slaughtered by a father that went bonkers back in the 1800's. There are thousands and thousands of stories just like that, predating any of the big scary chemicals that send the conspiracy theorists into a tizzy. I don't believe there is necessarily a reason that people go crazy. Some people are crazy - it's really that simple.

The problem here is that the fact that these people were prescribed psychiatric drugs only means that they were already disturbed on some level, so it's not like they gave a drug to a sane person who then proceeded to go crazy. More likely they gave drugs to a person who was already on the edge, and the drugs failed to pull them back.

I'm sticking firm to my position that these drugs have improved the lives of millions of people all over the world. Their success in the market speaks strongly to that, especially considering the propaganda disinformation squad has been gunning for them for years.

The position that they're evil only lends to more government. After all, if people are too gullible or stupid to decide for themselves what drugs they want to take, then the alternative is ...... what?

[angelatc]

Found this about flouride and prozac.

Is it basically the same flouride they put in our water? Seems that all fluoride compounds effect the thyroid per experiments in the '30's.

Anyone have better info/links on this relationship?

(http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-08-Prozac-Paxil-Fluorophenyl.htm)http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-08-Prozac-Paxil-Fluorophenyl.htm

With a name like that, there's little doubt of that being such a horribly biased site that I can't justify even wasting my time disproving their case. Without even looking, I can assume they're cherry picking data and presenting anecdotal evidence as scientific fact.

ETA: I couldn't stop myself. I found this on a science site: (http://www.volconvo.com/forums/science-technology/12297-fluoride.html)
The fact that a flourine atom is part of the fluoxetine molecule is a red herring. Fluoxetine has completely different properties from elemental flourine or flouride for that matter. Fluoxetine is a key that fits a lock resulting in increased serotonin levels. The effects of it rely on the shape of the molecule. The shape of the molecule relys on what atoms it is made from and how they are arranged. Flourine or flouride may have some psycotropic effects or even be detrimental to brain tissue(although I strongly doubt both), but those effects would have to rely on the shape of a flourine molecule (ie. Fl2) or the reactivity of flourine or flouride. The flourine atom in fluoxetine is not available to do what elemental flourine would do.

[Zippyjuan]

Let us try to see if what is claimed is possibly true. The first premise is that there is "an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder". We can begin with crime statistics. In January of this year, the Washington Post had an article on life expectancy- and points at what has been happening with the murder rate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-death-rate-from-homicide-drops-to-a-near-50-year-low/2012/01/11/gIQAo5tDrP_story.html

U.S. death rate from homicide drops to a near 50-year low

“We sort of expected those trends would continue, but what grabbed us here was the drop in homicide,” said Robert N. Anderson, chief of mortality statistics at the National Center for Health Statistics.

Homicide climbed into the top 15 causes of U.S. deaths in 1965. It placed tenth for three years in the early 1990s. In recent years, it has been hovering at 13 or 14. In 2010, it fell to 16.


Hmm. No massive murder waves- in fact, murder rate continues to decline- hitting a 50 year low. It adds that ant-social behavior has also been declining.

“We’re really not sure what’s driving this. That’s the million-dollar question,” Anderson said.

The steep drop in homicide in the 1990s — the District’s rate is now less than a third of what it was in 1991 — is usually attributed to crack cocaine’s waning popularity. Experts are less able to explain the decline since 2008, a period that tracks the economic downturn.

“There’s not enough knowledge out there for us to have an explanation that we can bank on. We’re left with speculation,” said Alfred Blumstein, a criminologist at Heinz College of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh.

A wide array of theories has been offered about factors that might be contributing to the decline, he said, ranging from better policing to the possibility that a lowered rate of lead poisoning in city children has led to reduced antisocial behavior among young adults.


Now it is certainly possible that anti-depressant usage contributes to higher murder rates but for us to have a good corelation the usage should move with the murder rate. Since the murder rate is down we need to have the anti-depressant usage to also be going down. Is that happening? I guess not.

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20111019/use-of-antidepressants-on-the-rise-in-the-us

Oct. 19, 2011 -- About 11% of Americans aged 12 or older take antidepressants, including many who have not seen a mental health professional in the past year, according to a new federal report.

The report by the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics also says that the rate of antidepressant use in the U.S. has increased nearly 400% since 1988.


Since the murder rate is moving in the OPPOSITE direction from anti-depressant usage there is no provable corelation.

What the article may be actually pointing out is that perhaps people likely to commit murder may also be on anti-depressants (they may be on the drugs because of a mental problem which also causes them to kill people) but even without the anti- depressants may still be likely to commit mayhem or murder. It is also It does not show that the consumption of the anti-depressants is the cause. It is also possible that for some people that being on anti- depressants may make them LESS likely to commit murder.

Not just murder down, but all violent crime:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html

Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

Published: May 23, 2011

The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States. Small towns, especially, are seeing far fewer murders: In cities with populations under 10,000, the number plunged by more than 25 percent last year


Anti-depressant usage has doubled while violent crime has fallen by 50%.

[dannno]

I completely disagree. How on earth can you possibly prove if a medication caused a crazy person to act crazy, or whether they were simply acting crazy because they are psychotic!?

You'd have ALL doctors going out of business, because inevitably ALL doctors will treat a patient who experiences a negative outcome and has the potential to make money through lawsuits. So lawyers will get on board and take advantage.

The real problem is that the medical industry runs the FDA and has essentially made it illegal for anybody to advertise natural products, which are safer and more effective, as being effective cures or medications for these conditions.

No, lawsuits are not the answer. The answer is the free market. If a doctor is successfully treating patients with mental psychosis using plants and other inexpensive natural methods then insurance companies will see that they can provide a cost savings to their bottom line and direct their customers towards the more effective doctors by giving them a lower co-pay or only using those particular doctors.

The reason that isn't happening today has got to be at least 10 if not 100 fold.. but all of them have to do with the government controlling the insurance and medical industries with monopoly players acting to protect their industry and products.

I just had jury duty and have even further solidified my position on this.

So some old asian lady backed into a worker at a grocery store (surprise :rolleyes:) while he was organizing carts next to the cart coral. Now he wants a bunch of money for a chiropractor and for pain and suffering.

Fortunately I didn't get picked for the jury so I didn't get to see the evidence, but what if he had back pain from pushing around the carts or from something else, and then got into this accident and pretended the back pain was from getting hit by this lady? What if the lady caused all the back pain and suffering, shouldn't she be responsible for some speculated amount of financial loss that he experienced due to the accident? There is already so much room for fraud with regards to these types of injury lawsuits where there is an incident which can be positively, at least beyond a reasonable doubt, identified as the cause of the injuries. In our situation with doctors prescribing medicine, we can't even positively identify what caused the injury and whether the medication, which the effects of may vary, actually caused it.

The other big issue I have is that I don't want my doctor to be responsible for my outcome because that will prevent them from being completely honest and acting in his own long-term best interest to protect his reputation as a healer. Instead they end up following some standardized procedure which protects them in a court of law but might not be the best treatment. Also consider doctors today who get in trouble for prescribing pain killers to people who may be addicted. This also in many cases stops doctors from prescribing painkillers to people who actually need painkillers (even if cannabis is a safer/better option) because people who really need them are in a lot of pain and require a lot and may resemble people who are addicted and over-prescribed or are using them for purely or primarily for recreational purposes.

[pcosmar]

Who's MK Ultra?


Wow.
Just wow..

The wiki,,for quick reference,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

Project MKULTRA, or MK-ULTRA, was the code name for a covert CIA human experimentation program, run by the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence

Though it is not hard to find much more on the subject.
it involved experimentation in Mind Control. and involved major Psychiatric, Pharmaceutical and research organizations.

Social Engineering and Control are the purpose. It is the purpose of these drugs..

These psychotic murder sprees are not an anomaly,,
It is working as expected.

[John F Kennedy III]

Wow.
Just wow..

The wiki,,for quick reference,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA


Though it is not hard to find much more on the subject.
it involved experimentation in Mind Control. and involved major Psychiatric, Pharmaceutical and research organizations.

Social Engineering and Control are the purpose. It is the purpose of these drugs..

These psychotic murder sprees are not an anomaly,,
It is working as expected.

Exactly.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Let us try to see if what is claimed is possibly true. The first premise is that there is "an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder". We can begin with crime statistics. In January of this year, the Washington Post had an article on life expectancy- and points at what has been happening with the murder rate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-death-rate-from-homicide-drops-to-a-near-50-year-low/2012/01/11/gIQAo5tDrP_story.html


Hmm. No massive murder waves- in fact, murder rate continues to decline- hitting a 50 year low. It adds that ant-social behavior has also been declining.


Now it is certainly possible that anti-depressant usage contributes to higher murder rates but for us to have a good corelation the usage should move with the murder rate. Since the murder rate is down we need to have the anti-depressant usage to also be going down. Is that happening? I guess not.

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20111019/use-of-antidepressants-on-the-rise-in-the-us


Since the murder rate is moving in the OPPOSITE direction from anti-depressant usage there is no provable corelation.

What the article may be actually pointing out is that perhaps people likely to commit murder may also be on anti-depressants (they may be on the drugs because of a mental problem which also causes them to kill people) but even without the anti- depressants may still be likely to commit mayhem or murder. It is also It does not show that the consumption of the anti-depressants is the cause. It is also possible that for some people that being on anti- depressants may make them LESS likely to commit murder.

Not just murder down, but all violent crime:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html


Anti-depressant usage has doubled while violent crime has fallen by 50%.

Even if the crime rate was brought down to 0% by mass druggings, I still wouldn't support these chemical lobotomies that the government and the pharmaceutical companies are pushing on the public.

[Zippyjuan]

In addition to the rates for violent crime and murder hitting 40 and 50 year lows, the percent of all murders which involve multiple victims has remaind fairly steady which means that the multiple murder rate should also be down as a percent of the total population.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/multiple.cfm

The proportion of homicides involving multiple victims increased gradually during the last two decades from 3.1% of all homicides in 1976 to 4.4% in 2005.

[tttppp]

"Altering" the mind is not the same thing as "improving" it. Donnay was specifying that these drugs do "alter" your mind in the sense that they change it in some way.

I would agree that these drugs do "fuck" with your mind and body, but they do not improve it as advertised. The only real benefit psych drugs have is they sedate their patients. Patients which were violent in the past can be considered safer under medication because they are too tired to get out of bed, let alone kills someone. Problem is these drugs can have severe side effects, and when doctors just take guesses at what medications you should take, many times you get a horrible reaction. This is very common.

[tttppp]

Wow.
Just wow..

The wiki,,for quick reference,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA


Though it is not hard to find much more on the subject.
it involved experimentation in Mind Control. and involved major Psychiatric, Pharmaceutical and research organizations.

Social Engineering and Control are the purpose. It is the purpose of these drugs..

These psychotic murder sprees are not an anomaly,,
It is working as expected.

Can you explain this a little more? Are you saying that all the psych drugs today are based off of CIA experiments?

[tttppp]

Fair enough, but the "probably" part isn't provable. I could easily argue that there probably would have been more of these incidents if mentally ill people weren't getting their medications. I blame society's tendency to continually look to place blame on external sources, instead of focusing on individual responsibility.

Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more. It's the fault of big pharma, big government, corporate America, MK ULtra, chem trails, the Jooz...but nobody is ever just fucking insane.

Not that I actually look for objective (or even rational) discussion on the subject of anything on the forums, but the argument is clearly biased and one sided when people simply refuse to consider that there are indeed millions of people who are indeed helped by the same drugs and methods that are demonized here, without any legitimate studies to support their claims.

I just hope that the young libertarians reading these threads don't decide not to seek help for their personal demons out of a baseless paranoid fear proposed by the vocal outliers of society.

I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of people on psych drugs are not helped. And of the ones who actually are, they could get better results from Chinese traditional medicine and not have any side effects like you would get from drugs.

[pcosmar]

Can you explain this a little more? Are you saying that all the psych drugs today are based off of CIA experiments?

Yes, I am saying that the Psychiatric industry, the Pharmaceutical industry and Government are in full partnership.
The FDA approves drugs based on this partnership.

NO ONE was ever charged with a crime for MK Ultra. Ever.
Those involved have continued to this day.

Listen to some of the victim testimony before congress.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=mk+ultra+victim+testimony&oq=MK+ULTRA+victim&aq=1&aqi=g3g-v1&aql=&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l3j0i15.0l0l1l638l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l 0.frgbld.&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7f11edaceb0ef551&biw=1188&bih=615

if you start following some of the rabbit trails,, be warned.
It is some dark and ugly shit.

It started with Operation Paperclip. (Well, Even before that really)
when Nazi Doctors and researchers were brought here and protected from prosecution.

[tttppp]

Yes, I am saying that the Psychiatric industry, the Pharmaceutical industry and Government are in full partnership.
The FDA approves drugs based on this partnership.

What does that have to do with the ability of a patient to sue a doctor who prescribed these drugs negligently?

[pcosmar]

What does that have to do with the ability of a patient to sue a doctor who prescribed these drugs negligently?

You can sue.. Go for it.
Of course you will be fighting the entire insurance industry,, The pharmaceutical industries, the Psychiatric industry, The US Government (FDA)
And all their combined resources.

I would just avoid the damn drugs.

Oh,, and to add,
Looking into this dark chapter is enough to eliminate any false view of a Benevolent Government.

[tttppp]

You can sue.. Go for it.
Of course you will be fighting the entire insurance industry,, The pharmaceutical industries, the Psychiatric industry, The US Government (FDA)
And all their combined resources.

I would just avoid the damn drugs.

Like I said before, a good lawyer would be able to point out the fact that the drug companies are paying for the doctor's defense and would make a connection between that and the reason they prescribed the medication in the first place. The fact that drug companies would fund a doctor's defense would put a big GUILTY sign on him.

[tod evans]

I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of people on psych drugs are not helped. And of the ones who actually are, they could get better results from Chinese traditional medicine and not have any side effects like you would get from drugs.

This statement is really out there.......

Every person is different and responds differently to both drugs and herbs......some responses may be similar but the facts remain that each body and each brains chemistry are unique.

Some people may have better luck with one or the other, some may have adverse reactions such as "going nuts".........problem is pinning the nuttiness on a specific drug/herb/brain interaction and not having external stimuli play a factor.

Education is the key to making informed decisions, if a person chooses to eat jimsonweed seeds in the hopes of "curing" the schizophrenic voices in his head then he needs to accept responsibility for his choice.

Just as if Suzy Homemaker decides she needs a script for "mothers little helper".....Suzy needs to do her due diligence and see if Prozac really is the best choice for postpartum depression.

If either Jimsonweed Joe or Suzy freak out and kill their kid or spouse then they need to accept responsibility for their behavior.

Now kids are a whole different story.......Parents who put kids on downers for any reason other than seizures need to take responsibility for their actions too. Same with parents who put their kids on speed.

Kids rely on their parents to do the due diligence for them and I believe it's irresponsible to give kids any psychotropic drugs. But that's me, and opinions are like assholes.

[tttppp]

This statement is really out there.......

Every person is different and responds differently to both drugs and herbs......some responses may be similar but the facts remain that each body and each brains chemistry are unique.

Some people may have better luck with one or the other, some may have adverse reactions such as "going nuts".........problem is pinning the nuttiness on a specific drug/herb/brain interaction and not having external stimuli play a factor.

Education is the key to making informed decisions, if a person chooses to eat jimsonweed seeds in the hopes of "curing" the schizophrenic voices in his head then he needs to accept responsibility for his choice.

Just as if Suzy Homemaker decides she needs a script for "mothers little helper".....Suzy needs to do her due diligence and see if Prozac really is the best choice for postpartum depression.

If either Jimsonweed Joe or Suzy freak out and kill their kid or spouse then they need to accept responsibility for their behavior.

Now kids are a whole different story.......Parents who put kids on downers for any reason other than seizures need to take responsibility for their actions too. Same with parents who put their kids on speed.

Kids rely on their parents to do the due diligence for them and I believe it's irresponsible to give kids any psychotropic drugs. But that's me, and opinions are like assholes.

There are no side effects to herbs. And herbs have the same effects on everyone. The key is taking the right herbs for you specific condition. As long as you go to a competent provider, you should never have any problems.

I don't see how the rest of my statement is "out there". Most patients are not helped in any way by these drugs. Of the ones that receive mild improvements in mental health, they experience severe problems in their physical health. There are very few poster childs for psych medicine. Very few people on these drugs have model lives.

[Zippyjuan]

You are right that everybody is different. In my brother's case, he had depression. It was brought on by being married to a bipolar woman. He went to a therapist and tried many different drugs with little to no effect. The thing which worked for him: divorce which removed the stress causing his depression.

[tttppp]

You are right that everybody is different. In my brother's case, he had depression. It was brought on by being married to a bipolar woman. He went to a therapist and tried many different drugs with little to no effect. The thing which worked for him: divorce which removed the stress causing his depression.

Being married to a crazy person is not a good reason to take anti-depressants. As you stated, what worked is eliminating the real problem, which was his wife. The doctors who prescribed him antidepressants should be ashamed of themselves.

[Kluge]

There are no side effects to herbs. And herbs have the same effects on everyone. The key is taking the right herbs for you specific condition. As long as you go to a competent provider, you should never have any problems.

I don't see how the rest of my statement is "out there". Most patients are not helped in any way by these drugs. Of the ones that receive mild improvements in mental health, they experience severe problems in their physical health. There are very few poster childs for psych medicine. Very few people on these drugs have model lives.

There ARE side-effects to herbs and other natural supplements and they do NOT react the same way in every person.

Generally not as bad or dramatic as pharmaceuticals, but they're also generally not as potent. Most pharmaceuticals are based on natural substances.

[tod evans]

There are no side effects to herbs. And herbs have the same effects on everyone. The key is taking the right herbs for you specific condition. As long as you go to a competent provider, you should never have any problems.

I don't see how the rest of my statement is "out there". Most patients are not helped in any way by these drugs. Of the ones that receive mild improvements in mental health, they experience severe problems in their physical health. There are very few poster childs for psych medicine. Very few people on these drugs have model lives.

Here is a link (http://www.erowid.org/herbs/) to a pretty comprehensive list of common herbs,here's (http://www.erowid.org/plants/) a list of plants, and here's (http://www.erowid.org/pharms/) a list of pharmaceuticals, all from the vaults of erowid website.

Please spend some time reading there, it will be informative and the information is backed by both research and first hand experience.

Some people really do reap benefits from antidepressants just as some do from plants and herbs.....

I tend to gravitate to things as nature made them myself but that doesn't mean I'm against using chemical compositions on occasion for certain purposes.

Really read the vaults..........please:o

[tttppp]

There ARE side-effects to herbs and other natural supplements and they do NOT react the same way in every person.

Generally not as bad or dramatic as pharmaceuticals, but they're also generally not as potent. Most pharmaceuticals are based on natural substances.

You are way off. All herbs do the same thing for everyone. Everyone has different conditions, so the combination of herbs needs to be tailored for each person. Lets say for example, one herb you take is dang gui. Dang gui builds blood in everyone. It doesn't build energy in some people, heats other people up, or cools other people down. It always has the effect of building more blood.

Also, herbs are far more stronger than drugs.

[tttppp]

Here is a link (http://www.erowid.org/herbs/) to a pretty comprehensive list of common herbs,here's (http://www.erowid.org/plants/) a list of plants, and here's (http://www.erowid.org/pharms/) a list of pharmaceuticals, all from the vaults of erowid website.

Please spend some time reading there, it will be informative and the information is backed by both research and first hand experience.

Some people really do reap benefits from antidepressants just as some do from plants and herbs.....

I tend to gravitate to things as nature made them myself but that doesn't mean I'm against using chemical compositions on occasion for certain purposes.

Really read the vaults..........please:o

I don't see the point of these websites.

Anti-depressants only work in a small percentage of people, if that. Of the people it helps, the vast majority of them have health problems caused by the anti-depressants. For example, most patients will experience impotence, weight gain, liver problems, and kidney problems. You are far more likely to experience these side effects than the actual benefits. Therefore, most people are not helped by anti-depressants.

[tod evans]

I don't see the point of these websites.

Anti-depressants only work in a small percentage of people, if that. Of the people it helps, the vast majority of them have health problems caused by the anti-depressants. For example, most patients will experience impotence, weight gain, liver problems, and kidney problems. You are far more likely to experience these side effects than the actual benefits. Therefore, most people are not helped by anti-depressants.

Then don't waste your time, who needs knowledge? Especially first hand knowledge...

[Zippyjuan]

What does "building more blood" mean? More blood in the same volume of body? That would mean higher blood pressure. More red blood cells? Cyclists have experimented with drugs which boost the oxygen carrying red blood cells. That makes the blood thicker and in extreme cases, some died from it.


All herbs do the same thing for everyone.


so the combination of herbs needs to be tailored for each person.

Why would you need to change the combination if it works the same in everyone? Those are contradictory statements.

[tttppp]

What does "building more blood" mean? More blood in the same volume of body? That would mean higher blood pressure. More red blood cells? Cyclists have experimented with drugs which boost the oxygen carrying red blood cells. That makes the blood thicker and in extreme cases, some died from it.





Why would you need to change the combination if it works the same in everyone? Those are contradictory statements.

Those are not contradictory statements. Lets say for example, a patient does not have any more room to build more blood. You would not give him an herb that makes more blood. That doesn't change the fact that herbs that build more blood would have the effect of building more blood.

Building more blood does not make blood thicker. Things like smoking, drinking, bad diet, can all have the effect of drying out your blood and leaving you with less blood than you used to have. The only way to fix that is to take herbs that build more blood.

[tttppp]

Then don't waste your time, who needs knowledge? Especially first hand knowledge...

I already have first hand knowledge of herbs. I checked out the website, but it wasn't relevant to our discussion.

[Zippyjuan]

Those are not contradictory statements. Lets say for example, a patient does not have any more room to build more blood. You would not give him an herb that makes more blood. That doesn't change the fact that herbs that build more blood would have the effect of building more blood.

Building more blood does not make blood thicker. Things like smoking, drinking, bad diet, can all have the effect of drying out your blood and leaving you with less blood than you used to have. The only way to fix that is to take herbs that build more blood.

Drying out your blood? I have never heard of that happening. Blood will dry if it leaves your body but not while it is inside you and you are alive.

[tttppp]

Drying out your blood? I have never heard of that happening. Blood will dry if it leaves your body but not while it is inside you and you are alive.

You've heard of heart attacks, blood clots, and strokes, right? This is caused from not having enough blood. When you don't have enough blood, blood dries up and forms clots.

You probably haven't heard of this because in western medicine, heart attacks and strokes are basically considered a medical mystery like everything else. They just assume its some sort of magic which causes it.

[Zippyjuan]

Clots don't mean "dry blood" though drying blood will clot. Heart attacks and strokes aren't caused by "not enough blood". You can be dizzy and perhaps faint if your blood is too thin which again does not mean "dry".


They just assume its some sort of magic which causes it.

No doctors I know of do.

[tttppp]

Clots don't mean "dry blood" though drying blood will clot. Heart attacks and strokes aren't caused by "not enough blood". You can be dizzy and perhaps faint if your blood is too thin which again does not mean "dry".



No doctors I know of do.

You obviously either never have had not enough blood, or have never gone to an herbologist with herbs that build more blood. One of the biggest causes of heart attacks is blood clots. Your blood clots only when you don't have enough blood.

Again, if blood clots are not caused by lack of blood, what are they caused by? Magic? Western medicine has zero clue as to what causes blood clots. Perhaps you should listen to the profession that has had an answer for blood clots for the past 5,000 years.

[BlackTerrel]

It's a tongue in cheek cautionary tale.

Why is coldly assessing worse case scenarios "fear mongering"?

It is what it is. Same as the cop injustices. Is it likely that you'll be beaten, shot or tased to death by a cop? No. Is the increase in incidents indicating a trend in the wrong direction? Yes, without a doubt, as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is an uptick of random and multiple shootings, especially by kids and teenagers that probably would not have happened, had it not been for an adverse reaction to these drugs.

Except that there isn't. Your own data shows homicides are at the same level they were 80 years ago.

[Chrysamere]

You guys sound like a bunch of scientologists.

[PaulConventionWV]

I would agree that these drugs do "fuck" with your mind and body, but they do not improve it as advertised. The only real benefit psych drugs have is they sedate their patients. Patients which were violent in the past can be considered safer under medication because they are too tired to get out of bed, let alone kills someone. Problem is these drugs can have severe side effects, and when doctors just take guesses at what medications you should take, many times you get a horrible reaction. This is very common.

*sigh* never mind. The point was that they really do alter your mind.

[PaulConventionWV]

Feel free to substitute snort, smoke or bang if it applies...

How about "take"?

[PaulConventionWV]

Fair enough, but the "probably" part isn't provable. I could easily argue that there probably would have been more of these incidents if mentally ill people weren't getting their medications. I blame society's tendency to continually look to place blame on external sources, instead of focusing on individual responsibility.

Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more. It's the fault of big pharma, big government, corporate America, MK ULtra, chem trails, the Jooz...but nobody is ever just fucking insane.

Not that I actually look for objective (or even rational) discussion on the subject of anything on the forums, but the argument is clearly biased and one sided when people simply refuse to consider that there are indeed millions of people who are indeed helped by the same drugs and methods that are demonized here, without any legitimate studies to support their claims.

I just hope that the young libertarians reading these threads don't decide not to seek help for their personal demons out of a baseless paranoid fear proposed by the vocal outliers of society.

You touched on something there. Nobody "is ever just fucking insane." Believe it or not, I actually believe that. There is always a cause for the things that people do, and the "just insane" part is something that has been drilled into the minds of people as a way to make taking drugs more acceptable. Even in the rare case that somebody may seem to do something violent or stupid for no reason whatsoever, there is usually a reason underneath it all. The "bunch of loonies" mindset is just another way for the government to classify and control people. Some people may seem crazy, but their condition is treatable, despite what we have been told.

You just seem to want to avoid any causal relationships between a totalitarian state and its techniques for control of society, and the way people behave. You can't ignore everything like you seem to want to. Eventually, you're going to have to face the facts that sometimes government is involved in these "conspiracies" because humans given power WILL abuse that power if they can, and believe me, they can. History is just one big string of conspiracies. It is the norm, not the exception. The only reason people like you believe conspiracies are some kind of crazy kooky thing to believe is because the people perpetrating the conspiracies have created that narrative which makes it the only "normal" and socially acceptable thing to believe. The evidence is all around us now, and we are not shifting the blame by putting it on government and big pharma and the state-controlled education system. We are pointing out the reality of our soceity today. The reality is not that just a bunch of random crazy shit happens and nobody knows why. Cause and effect, cause and effect.

[Anti Federalist]

Except that there isn't. Your own data shows homicides are at the same level they were 80 years ago.

Maybe they would have been even lower.

[pacelli]

There are no side effects to herbs. And herbs have the same effects on everyone. The key is taking the right herbs for you specific condition.


All herbs do the same thing for everyone. Everyone has different conditions, so the combination of herbs needs to be tailored for each person.


You're absolutely right.


A toxic ingredient in a popular herbal remedy is linked to more than half of all cases of urinary tract cancer in Taiwan where use of traditional medicine is widespread, said a US study Monday.

Aristolochic acid (AA) is a potent human carcinogen that is found naturally in Aristolochia plants, an ingredient common in botanical Asian remedies for aiding weight loss, easing joint pain and improving stomach ailments.

The ancient herb has been touted around the world for thousands of years for everything from gout to childbirth, but scientists now know it carries serious risks of causing kidney disease and urinary cancers.

The latest research found it can interact with a person's DNA and form unique biomarkers of exposure, as well as creating signals within tumor suppressing genes that indicate the carcinogen has been ingested.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/herbal-remedy-blamed-high-cancer-rate-taiwan-study-204239835.html

[tttppp]

You're absolutely right.



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/herbal-remedy-blamed-high-cancer-rate-taiwan-study-204239835.html

I should have rephrased my comment to say there are no side effects to CHINESE herbs. I don't have experience in other herbs. I do know in chinese traditional medicine, there are no bad herbs.

Also, even if you give someone a "good" herb, you can exacerbate their problems if you give the patient the wrong herbs for his condition.

[heavenlyboy34]

Re:the OP-To be fair, Klonopin is prescribed for other things (like epilespy). I believe its use as an anti-depressant is "off-label". If I'm right, that changes the story a bit.

[heavenlyboy34]

You can sue.. Go for it.
Of course you will be fighting the entire insurance industry,, The pharmaceutical industries, the Psychiatric industry, The US Government (FDA)
And all their combined resources.

I would just avoid the damn drugs.

Oh,, and to add,
Looking into this dark chapter is enough to eliminate any false view of a Benevolent Government.
qft and +rep

[moostraks]

I have no idea. But I am not aware, nor does the article cite, ANY evidence that anyone has demonstrated even a significant correlation between "these types of incidents" (whatever THAT means) and the use of xanax. So when the article jumps to the conclusion, repeated in the thread title, that certain drugs are causing murder etc. that is pure speculation.

There are literally millions of people who take xanax without acting violently, and many incidents of violence recorded through history before xanax was invented. So, if you want to be a careful, critical thinker, the ONLY thing you can conclude from this anecdotal evidence is that xanax and tequila do not prevent violence 100%. Anything beyond that is unsupported.

You are, of course, free to speculate at will. But don't pretend it is science.

Have not read the whole thread but I can tell you through first hande experience-Xanax can cause a person to become irrational and violent. I went to a doctor who gave it to me for depression. I went from being incredibly depressed (sad) to ragingly angry. I was doing the dishes one day when I was taking it and in a spat of anger slammed the dishwasher closed with the dish racks sitting out on the door. Called the doctor to tell him it was causing me to go from not wanting to live to wanting to destroy things from being in a blind angry rage. The piece of crap doctor said that was not possible and dropped me as a patient. I quit taking the medicine and went back to being depressed (sad). Eventually I changed my situtation and that changed my problem with the depression.

These meds change the way you think and to act like there are people who cannot have this type of bad reaction to these drugs is wrong. Nothing changed about my situation except for taking xanax. I KNOW that is what caused me to be in such a blind rage. It came from out of nowhere and I reacted destructively before I could even think. Once I ditched the xanax I went back to being sad but not furious. Just because some people can be helped by it doesn't mean that there aren't some of us who can be turned irrational and manic.

[WilliamC]

The one time in my life I felt mildly depressed I bought myself a copy of the DSMV-III and self-diagnosed.

I also realized that I was boringly normal and that there are some really f-ed up folks out there.

Psychotropic drugs are way overperscribed, and too many Americans are way over medicated, yet the most natural anti-depressent known is illegal, as are drugs that have been clinically shown to treat drepresing and other mental disorders.

The entire medical industry in the USA is more about control than it is about health, and until the Federal Government gets completely out of it it is likely to stay so.

[tod evans]

Just because some people can be helped by it doesn't mean that there aren't some of us who can be turned irrational and manic.

Common sense! Thanks!

I agree what works for some doesn't work for others.

Blanket statements about some of these drugs don't make sense to me, it's not like we're talking about cyanide where the physical effect is identical in every instance. Some of these drugs mess with brain chemistry by impeding neural transmission while others have more of a physical effect on the patient but every patient will react somewhat differently.

In the end it's up to the patient to do as you did....refuse to take medication that doesn't work for you.

I'm kind of leery about having the FDA and big-pharma in bed when it comes to messing with crazy peoples brain chemistry. But that raises the question; Who's going to keep an eye on big-pharma? Their business is formulating new chemical compounds and in the realm of "crazy" folks who can say if it's the drugs or the underlying issues that cause some patients to do what they do.

There's a moral/ethical and legal quagmire associated with any "treatment" of mental illness.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

some kind of fluorine or fluoride is in those medicines, the same shit they put in the water in half the country.

[Mani]

I heard a frightening lecture from a guy who had some well documented sources about the uptick in school shootings and the correlation to those kids being on Ritalin. It was back in 2006 so I can't remember a lot of the details but it scared the crap out of me.

Then after the lecture i went on a mini search and found a bunch of sites from some dr's who had done research which showed side effects of ritilan and a couple other ADD type drugs that included serious stuff like manic mood swings, suicidal thoughts, etc.

There were pages and pages of sources, not just 1 cooky infowars site or something, but multiple sources and multiple doctors.

(btw not calling info wars kooky, but the stuff I looked up was full of references)

I did that research on my own 5+ years ago, so unfortunately I don't have the sites or sources anymore. But it was scary.

Going back to the lecturer he was talking about the epidemic of medicating children and asking the population to take a step back before we start turning kids into zombies because they don't like sitting in a desk for 8hrs listening to boring subjects.

He was concerned about a generation of zombie children.

My only experience with medicating kids was my former neighbor she was raising a teenage boy alone, he was a sweet helpful boy. He was a bit sad about his dad leaving them when he was little. I guess he was going thru some emotional turmoil or depression or something and the doc prescribed something. He was on it for a while and she said she cried the whole time coz she didn't recognize him anymore while he was on it. She couldnt take him on the stuff and tossed it. She didn't wanna get into details, but it was bad. Well, she remarried and had a father figure in the home and i think it helped a lot...he was a good kid all along.


Again sorry I don't have specifics, this thread is 5 years too late for me to give better input, but it made me remember that scary lecture and my own startling research about ADD drugs.

I think the lecture was focused on ADD and the hyper one, and not solely ritilan.

[nbhadja]

Western medicine has become a scam these days. A bunch of propaganda for big drug companies and their useless expensive dangerous chemical drugs which not only make it worse but cause other problems as well.

As someone who has taken the infamous acne drug accutane before, I can assure you that it can F with your mind. Not for all people, but for some. Also it only "cured" my acne for a few years then it came back- but then I went on a raw food diet and it permanently wiped out my acne- that's something they don't want you to know. Also before my raw food diet, when I had the big cysts taht would never go away with anything but expensive cortisone injections they lied to me. Dabbing organic apple cider vinegar on the cyst will make it go away in a few days, if not a day.

All they wanna do is drug you up with useless expensive dangerous pills. They hide the real truth. My friends mom was suffering from minor depression, went on these useless chemical pills and then became much worse. She has literally become addicted to these pills like a heroine addict is to heroine and will become suicidal if she is taken off the pills- she has become dependent on them- just what they want.

[tttppp]

Western medicine has become a scam these days. A bunch of propaganda for big drug companies and their useless expensive dangerous chemical drugs which not only make it worse but cause other problems as well.

As someone who has taken the infamous acne drug accutane before, I can assure you that it can F with your mind. Not for all people, but for some. Also it only "cured" my acne for a few years then it came back- but then I went on a raw food diet and it permanently wiped out my acne- that's something they don't want you to know. Also before my raw food diet, when I had the big cysts taht would never go away with anything but expensive cortisone injections they lied to me. Dabbing organic apple cider vinegar on the cyst will make it go away in a few days, if not a day.

All they wanna do is drug you up with useless expensive dangerous pills. They hide the real truth. My friends mom was suffering from minor depression, went on these useless chemical pills and then became much worse. She has literally become addicted to these pills like a heroine addict is to heroine and will become suicidal if she is taken off the pills- she has become dependent on them- just what they want.

I agree 100%. Acne is from having an unclean liver...usually from bad foods. Getting a better diet is one way to reduce your acne problems.

As you said, drug companies are a scam. Eventually they are going to have a pill for every bodily function, and we'll all take pills all day long as if we are AIDS patients.

[PierzStyx]

If it hasn't been said yet- Fahrenheit 451.

[Zippyjuan]

If it hasn't been said yet- Fahrenheit 451.

How do book burners fit in?

[BlackTerrel]

Maybe they would have been even lower.

But you agree that we do not currently have an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder right? The title is fearmongering?

It sounds like we both agree the title is wrong.

[Anti Federalist]

But you agree that we do not currently have an epidemic of mania, mayhem, and murder right? The title is fearmongering?

It sounds like we both agree the title is wrong.

Yes, agreed, in fact, if anything, things are too safe, sane and regulated.

People walking about in a happy trance, induced by whatever cause, and the world's largest prison population in the world to keep a thumb on the malcontents.

[BlackTerrel]

Can't argue with that.

[John F Kennedy III]

Yes, agreed, in fact, if anything, things are too safe, sane and regulated.

People walking about in a happy trance, induced by whatever cause, and the world's largest prison population in the world to keep a thumb on the malcontents.


Can't argue with that.

I third this motion.