View Full Version : Can anyone help?
11-14-2007, 06:51 PM
"Are Ron Paul supporters thinking this all the way through?
First off, I don't denigrate the man. He's saying some plain truths that need to be said, and the regular politicians have long-since abdicated thier responsibility to the people. However, if you follow through on his 'If it's not in the Constitution it's out the door' philosophy, the end result would be a country that would be unrecognizable to most people today. I don't know if people think things like poverty, environmental degradation, social ills, consumer rights, and many other things will magically rectify themselves, or they simply don't care. The libertarian ideas Paul esposes posit that each man really IS an island and a working society can exist where the concept of the 'public good' simply doesn't exist. I've never seen one. Ever. I get the feeling alot of the pro-Paul sentiment is about frustration with the status quo than a real desire to totally remake the country. Am I wrong?"
I posted this in another thread.. but no one was answering, so I thought I'd ask here.. I'm looking for a good rebuttal for this, he is a potential voter?
oh and I'll delete the other thread I posted..
11-14-2007, 07:05 PM
11-14-2007, 07:23 PM
"The libertarian ideas Paul espouses posit that each man really IS an island and a working society can exist where the concept of the 'public good' simply doesn't exist."
I look at the island analogy a bit differently. I see each person as an island...and under the surface of the water were all connected.
The 'public good' exist because of the people....not the government. The tsunami relief for Indonesia is a good example. The US government gave less per capita than most countries. If you look at individual contributions the US was the world leader.
So the drastic change would only be at the government level. Americans will continue to be what they've always been and thats good people. People won't start living their lives differently in some dramatic fashion; they'll just have more freedom to live their lives. We'll also have more money to give to the charity of our choice. The important part here is that we get to chose and the charity given is sincere and not through force.
11-14-2007, 07:24 PM
11-14-2007, 08:08 PM
Let's start here first: Name one positive thing that the federal government is really good at.
11-14-2007, 08:24 PM
Ron Paul will not be a dictator. He is regularly bringing up the role of Congress. It is unfortunate, but how much did Ronald Reagan reduce the government in office? Probably none. Ron Paul has his ideal state, but he is realistic that there will need to be "un-shocking" transitions if he has his way.
Ron Paul can only stem the tide of big government really.
Before 1913, people did a pretty good job of taking care of themselves.
Look up the history of mutual aid societies. They were common before their activities got taken over by the government, at a much higher cost.
The idea that the government needs to look out for the "common good" is nonsense. That is just an excuse for higher taxes. If you consider taxation to be stealing, looking out for the "common good" is just an excuse to steal.
The average person would be better off without income taxes. For example, my parents might be screwed without Medicare. However, if I didn't have to pay income taxes of 40% or more, I could afford to directly support them myself.
11-14-2007, 08:49 PM
These are not specifically Ron Paul pieces, but they do address the question of "How can we survive without the government taking care of us?"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer60.html (BTW, Butler Shaffer (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer-arch.html) is a very good writer. Real good stuff.)
Most people don't realize that most of our daily lives are actually lived in a state of anarchy (no-rulers), we just don't realize it.
11-14-2007, 08:52 PM
People always seem to forget about the 50 states. If California wants to have universal health care, an insane income tax, free education, and welfare for everyone including illegal aliens they can go ahead and do it. But they'd be paying for it themselves.
I bet they'd lose population to the states that don't do those things.
11-14-2007, 09:25 PM
The libertarian ideas Paul esposes posit that each man really IS an island and a working society can exist where the concept of the 'public good' simply doesn't exist. I've never seen one. Ever.
Like I posted in the other thread, probably the only reason that's the case is because dictatorships and democracies share at least one thing in common: those in power will always hand out benefits to stay in power. And even consensus doesn't make it good policy.
I forget where I read this, but remember, the original liberal insight is that society is self-organizing.
That was the idea behind the United States of America. No big government required. It's amazing what free people can do through peaceful, voluntary means. We just aren't really used to it.
11-15-2007, 02:07 AM
People are worried about the environment without government controls, but in a free market the good ideas rise to the top. In our present state, the corrupt government uses it's power to regulate the good ideas out of existence in favor of old ideas that are hanging on to power. The electric railcar public transportation system in Los angeles would have never been eliminated without the interference of the oil lobby. Ostrich farming (a better idea environmentally) might have become serious competiton to the beef industry if not for interference by the FDA and the power of the meat lobby. The list goes on and on, Electric cars, solar power, etc. etc. Our coountry is still benefitting from the first 150 years of history when our market was more free, it's only the last century when things have gotten bad. Corporations should be subject to public pressures, but when you have the lobby connection between government corporations and they can regulate away their competition, you have the Halliburtons, and the corporate mindset of "this years profits are more important of the long term well being of the company" (Let's cut down all the trees in Brazil while we can, with no thought of the future) What Ron Paul's presidency will bring is legitamate competition, and strong leadership encouraging corporations to not only be profitable, but to also be good citizens. Just look at the last free market left in the world. Without government interference, the internet is a place where you can find infomation unfiltered by any special interest presence, and it truly stands out when compared to what we are being force-fed elsewhere. If there was a news source where people could actually get the truth on network television, I hope that the public would be smart enough to watch it and the others would just fade away, as bad ideas are supposed to.
Most Americans have at least heard of socialism, but corporatism like filmmaker58 has described is perhaps the biggest hidden threat - "hidden" because people equate it with capitalism.
the state governments can provide social programs (entitlements) if they people of that state want to fund it.
Putting at the federal level makes it "one size fits all" which rarely, if ever works. The only thing that needs to be done at the federal level is our common defense and the defense of liberty (e.g. whats in the constitution)
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