Is it moral to not report all of your tips for taxes if you are a waiter/waitress?

[PaulConventionWV]

This just crossed my mind. I'm not working as a waiter, but I have considered it. If you see your tip lying on a table, it seems like nobody would know if you acted like half of it wasn't there and just stuffed it in your pocket. Of course, I don't think anyone's going to believe you if you report 0 tips.

The question is, is it moral to lie if the IRS shouldn't have the money anyway? Most people will scoff at this question, but others I know would also have questions about this. I have a firm conviction against lying, but I'm not sure how this could even be considered that since it is to protect your rightful earnings.

[phill4paul]

I don't have a problem with not reporting. I consider tips to be gifts. If some one gives me a $20 in a birthday card should I report that?
Granted that is not as the laws are written. But, then, I don't believe most laws are written from a moralistic standard.

[WilliamC]

Hell yes its moral to keep your money from the IRS, it doesn't belong to them!

If you don't you are guilty of deliberately feeding the beast.

Just keep yourself off their radar as much as possible, period.

[angelatc]

The IRS automatically taxes servers on their tickets. So the question becomes whether its moral to not report tips that exceed the amount ( IIRC 8%) that the IRS assumed you got.

My answer: Depends if you're a Libertarian. As long as you're voting to tax other people, it's immoral for you not to pay the amount that those other people have decided is your fair share.

[KMX]

I have been a bartender/sever for many years. I NEVER report all my tips and here is why.

They are taking enough money from me already.
I get paid 2.13 an hour plus tips. Some people don't understand that. Some think I get $8 an hour or something.
When I bartend I get $5.50 plus tips but still I don't get paid min wage.

Ron Paul is trying to pass a bill that will allow ALL tips to be kept in pocket and 0% tax on tips. LOVE IT! Keep the fruits of your labor!

[ghengis86]

Is extortion moral? No, so not complying is moral.

If I put a gun to your head and demand money, is that moral? If you refuse, is that immoral (maybe it's not smart since I lay claim to your life if you do not comply, but certainly not immoral)?

[Liberty74]

It's technically against the law but the law itself is immoral. Income taxation is theft.

[oyarde]

Fed govt is immoral , therefore it is immoral ( and foolish )to give them anymore than you have to. Tips are not earned income , it is a gift , does every ten year old need to report the $20 Grandma gave them for birthday ??

[Danke]

Tips in the private sector are beyond the scope of the Income Tax, Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

[Acala]

You should not only declare your tips but give extra to the Treasury Department because all the money they get is used for good things like killing people who are different than us and making sure that bankers and military contractors can continue to live in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

[MaxPower]

I think it is thoroughly morally justifiable not to file an income-tax return at all, and to be open about the reasons you have not-- that the money is used in an array of grossly-immoral ways and in blatant violation of the Constitution, which is the "contract" from which the government purports to derive the authority to tax you in the first place-- but I do not support the practice of deception.

[sync]

Wouldn't that kind of be like volunteering information to a thief, that you have more money stashed some place else? A rose is a rose by any other name... You can call it taxation, but if you are being forced to hand something over at the barrel of a gun it's theft, no matter what entity is holding the gun.

[Acala]

I file honest returns because I don't want the hassle of trying to hide. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Taxation is theft. You are not morally required to cooperate with a thief.

[Lishy]

What the fuck, now we have to tell our mommy and daddy government when someone gives us money too!?

[eduardo89]

You should not only declare your tips but give extra to the Treasury Department because all the money they get is used for good things like killing people who are different than us and making sure that bankers and military contractors can continue to live in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

Did you know you can write off any contribution to the treasury to reduce the federal debt as a "charitable donation"?

[Kodaddy]

Who gets to decide what is moral or not?

[sync]

Who gets to decide what is moral or not?

The universe. Morality is not relative.

[tfurrh]

is it moral to not tip at sonic?

[sync]

is it moral to not tip at sonic?

Rude, maybe. But not immoral. :)

[kah13176]

OP, please understand that tax evasion is moral. Not just tips, but wages too.

[Toureg89]

is it moral to resist the threat of rape or theft?

[Sam I am]

I think that it would make sense for an exception to be made to cash, non-billed tips because it is very hard to enforce.


But on the topic of morality,

If it's moral to cheat on your taxes( and not reporting tips is cheating on your taxes), then would it be moral for your children to be prevented by an outsider from going to public school? would it be moral for you to be prevented from driving on public roads? Would it be moral to just not give your social security pension when you reach 65?

[phill4paul]

Reported. The lot of you.

[Liberty's Landing]

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"

Read in context, I believe that the teaching points you toward your heart in the matter. Jesus was asked the question in an attempt to corner him. His answer forced to questioners to examine their own hearts about the matter. I would say that only you can answer the question, and that you will/would know what to do.

Me? I would not report them. Doesn't make it right, though.

[Paul Fan]

The IRS automatically taxes servers on their tickets. So the question becomes whether its moral to not report tips that exceed the amount ( IIRC 8%) that the IRS assumed you got.

My answer: Depends if you're a Libertarian. As long as you're voting to tax other people, it's immoral for you not to pay the amount that those other people have decided is your fair share.

This^

[TheGrinch]

If it's moral to cheat on your taxes( and not reporting tips is cheating on your taxes), then would it be moral for your children to be prevented by an outsider from going to public school? would it be moral for you to be prevented from driving on public roads? Would it be moral to just not give your social security pension when you reach 65?
Well, let's see, that's quite the pandora's box you're opening:

Is it moral to force someone to pay what you determine is a "fair share" of their tax dollars to go to things that they oppose or don't use? Because if I could decide where my tax dollars went (or at least if they used our tax dollars responsibly), then I'd agree it'd be immoral to not pay for what I use. However, the amount of things your taxed on in life (pretty much anything and everything) is only trumped by the number of ways they waste those tax dollars.

Is it moral for the government to set up a tax system that's further in scope than the one our founders opposed with "tea parties"?

Is it moral for them to force us into social security and then use the money for overseas wars, with us younger folks probably unlikely to see a dime from the ponzi scheme we're forced to pay into?

Is it moral for the federal government to rack up trillions in debt with no plan to balance the budget for another 28 years, and pay for it and the interest with my tax dollars, essentially making me and my children responsible for their irresponsibility?

Is it moral that a person who makes more and uses less services should pay a big chunk of their hard-earned income, while another might pay as little as zero and use far more services? Further, is it moral to force one person to pay for someone else who may have no desire to work? Is it moral to subsidize drug addictions?

Is it moral to devalue (essentially a hidden tax) people's money by counterfeiting more money on top of what you tax and borrow?


Does that just about cover it, cuz I could probably go all day.... They're going to find a way to tax you on anything and everything they can, so any chance you have to deal in cash under the table, I say go for it when you can.

[brushfire]

Its about as moral to not report tips to the IRS as it is to forcibly take money against someone's will.

[awake]

In this case immorality is enshrined as law.

[TheGrinch]

Its about as moral to not report tips to the IRS as it is to forcibly take money against someone's will.

How so? I'd say the latter is far more immoral than the former (especially when by default they still tax you on CC's and 8% of cash sales), which to me is more peaceful civil disobedience against something you find immoral.

(Or was that just meant to be sarcasm?)

[Wesker1982]

Nothing wrong with lying to criminals.

If a bandit comes up to you with a knife and asks where all your gold is, is it wrong to lie to him? (let's ignore whether this is risky or not)

Or lying to protect your kids from a criminal, etc etc etc. IRS is just a criminal gang writ large.

[Sam I am]

Well, let's see, that's quite the pandora's box you're opening:

Is it moral to force someone to pay what you determine is a "fair share" of their tax dollars to go to things that they oppose or don't use? Because if I could decide where my tax dollars went (or at least if they used our tax dollars responsibly), then I'd agree it'd be immoral to not pay for what I use. However, the amount of things your taxed on in life (pretty much anything and everything) is only trumped by the number of ways they waste those tax dollars.

Is it moral for the government to set up a tax system that's further in scope than the one our founders opposed with "tea parties"?

Is it moral for them to force us into social security and then use the money for overseas wars, with us younger folks probably unlikely to see a dime from the ponzi scheme we're forced to pay into?

Is it moral for the federal government to rack up trillions in debt with no plan to balance the budget for another 28 years, and pay for it and the interest with my tax dollars, essentially making me and my children responsible for their irresponsibility?

Is it moral that a person who makes more and uses less services should pay a big chunk of their hard-earned income, while another might pay as little as zero and use far more services? Further, is it moral to force one person to pay for someone else who may have no desire to work? Is it moral to subsidize drug addictions?

Is it moral to devalue (essentially a hidden tax) people's money by counterfeiting more money on top of what you tax and borrow?


Does that just about cover it, cuz I could probably go all day.... They're going to find a way to tax you on anything and everything they can, so any chance you have to deal in cash under the table, I say go for it when you can.

The fact of the matter is that these programs exist, and they have been funded with people's tax money.

If you went to take advantage of say... social security, would it be moral for the distribute to decide to give you less money than you're supposed to be entitled to?

[Cabal]

This just crossed my mind. I'm not working as a waiter, but I have considered it. If you see your tip lying on a table, it seems like nobody would know if you acted like half of it wasn't there and just stuffed it in your pocket. Of course, I don't think anyone's going to believe you if you report 0 tips.

The question is, is it moral to lie if the IRS shouldn't have the money anyway? Most people will scoff at this question, but others I know would also have questions about this. I have a firm conviction against lying, but I'm not sure how this could even be considered that since it is to protect your rightful earnings.

The immorality began with taxation. Judging the morality of the subsequent actions which follow is rather useless.

If a man breaks into your home, which is rightfully your property, and puts a loaded gun to your head demanding to know where your wife is; you can't really say it is immoral for you to lie to this man about the location of your wife.

If you can rightfully use defensive force to protect life and property, which you can, there's no reason why you can't also use lying to do the same.

[TheGrinch]

The fact of the matter is that these programs exist, and they have been funded with people's tax money.

That is reality, not morality.


If you went to take advantage of say... social security, would it be moral for the distribute to decide to give you less money than you're supposed to be entitled to?
No, it's not moral, and that's why I mentioned the social security ponzi scheme in my reply... Is it moral that they don't allow me to opt out of a savings account that I'm forced into, and likely won't see my money back from? SS is not meant to be a tax, they jsut use it as one.

Anyways, I said my piece. I really don't feel like arguing about something so completely subjective as morality. I'll just leave to the fact that our tax dollars are wasted every day by the billion and used to fight violent wars, so no, I'm not going to think someone is less moral for skimming a little bit of taxes off a waiter's salary. They make up for it in taxing you on what you spend anyway.

[No Free Beer]

Are you a double agent?

;)

[PaulConventionWV]

The universe. Morality is not relative.

The universe decides morality? Who is the universe that it has such a mind? Is it an intelligent being, perhaps?

[stuntman stoll]

When someone is robing you at gun point and asks you where your stash is, it is not immoral to lie to him. You say that you don't have a stash unless you think the robber might find it anyway. In that case you tell the robber where the stash is, not for the sake of telling the truth, but in pragmatic self interest to avoid possible punishment for hiding the stash from the robber.

IRS = armed robber

[stuntman stoll]

The universe decides morality? Who is the universe that it has such a mind? Is it an intelligent being, perhaps?
Morality in a political sense is based on natural law. All political morality stems from every person having ownership of themselves, the fruits of their labor, the fruits of voluntary trade, and ownership of of discovered resources that a person puts into use (ie. life, liberty, property). There can be religious morality that goes above and beyond political morality (such as the Mennonite belief that killing is wrong even in self defense.)
Natural law is just as much a part of nature as the laws governing gravity, properties of elements, and mathematics.

[MikeStanart]

Laws =! Morality

[thoughtomator]

I'm in the "it is immoral to deal morally with an amoral entity" camp. If .gov is going after waiters for their tips, the game is already over.

[VBRonPaulFan]

as someone who works in the tax industry here is the mostly likely scenario of not reporting any tips as a waitress/waiter from stuff i've heard.

(btw, if you're being audited - you're already presumed guilty and the burden is on you to prove you aren't... so you already fucked up by letting that happen in the first place. it's lame, but that's just what we've 'let' the irs become)

so an auditor comes to your house and says you haven't reported any tips, and it's highly suspicious. they'll say it's completely unreasonable for someone who works as a waiter to not get any tips, prove you didn't get any tips. which you can't. because obviously you have no way of proving you never took money off a table you served. so they'll probably try to go back through your employers receipts and find any receipts where a gratuity was automatically included for a table of like 6 people+ you served. if they find even one, game over. it really depends on the auditor, but they'll probably make an 'estimate' of how many tips you got based off the receipts they can prove you had, but that won't matter because they'll fine the shit out of you for lying on a tax return. that's how the irs makes its dough, not by getting you to pay the 'taxes you owe', but by fining you to high fucking heaven.

so do i think not reporting tips is immoral? absolutely not, i don't think the IRS/state has a claim to your money in the first place. but is it stupid as shit to claim 0 tips and allow yourself to get into the situation i described above? absolutely. at the bare minimum, keep track of the tips automatically included on the bills for large parties to cover your bases.

[FindLiberty]

Don't leave "Tips"!

I leave cash "Gifts" and use these cards EVERY TIME http://store.theadvocates.org/category_s/65.htm

[QueenB4Liberty]

I file honest returns because I don't want the hassle of trying to hide. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Taxation is theft. You are not morally required to cooperate with a thief.

Pretty much this.

But if I was a waiter I probably wouldn't report all my tips!

[Danke]

I file honest returns because I don't want the hassle of trying to hide. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with morality. Taxation is theft. You are not morally required to cooperate with a thief.


And therein lies the conundrum.

I'd argue you are filing dishonest returns.

[The Gold Standard]

Is it moral to lock your valuables in a safe to keep burglars from stealing them?