MO - Women refused treatment at hospital, then arrested, then dies in jail.

[Anti Federalist]

Another casualty of the medical/enforcement complex.



Hospital defends care prior to woman's death at Richmond Heights jail

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html

RICHMOND HEIGHTS • National attention to the story of Anna Brown's death has overwhelmed her family and prompted St. Mary's Health Center officials to defend the actions workers took moments before the homeless woman was arrested for trespassing there.

"The staff at St. Mary's has heard the outrage being expressed about this tragic event," Kate Becker, president of SSM St. Mary's Health Center, said in a videotaped statement posted on the hospital's website Thursday.

Becker said in a statement to the Post-Dispatch that the hospital has received calls and messages from the public since the story ran, adding that some have been supportive too.

"We followed established medical guidelines and performed appropriate tests. Unfortunately, even with appropriate testing using sophisticated technology, blood clots can still be undetected in a small number of cases," the statement continued.

The Post-Dispatch published a report Sunday on its investigation into the Sept. 21 death of Brown, 29, just hours after Richmond Heights police arrested her for trespassing at St. Mary's.

The homeless mother of two had been to three hospitals within a week complaining of leg pain. Police escorted her out of St. Louis University Hospital. Richmond Heights police then arrested her hours later after she insisted she received inadequate care and refused to leave St. Mary's.

A St. Mary's doctor described Brown as exhibiting "no distress" during an examination Richmond Heights police requested before taking her to jail, according to a federal investigation into the hospital's conduct.

"My legs don't work!" Brown yelled as police wheeled her out of the hospital after the exam. Officers dragged her into the jail and left her on the floor of a jail cell, where she died.

About three hours after examining Brown, the same doctor pronounced her dead.

An autopsy revealed Brown had blood clots in her legs that had moved to and lodged in her lungs.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services' investigation found St. Mary's was in compliance with federal emergency care laws that require hospitals to treat patients regardless of their ability to pay.

The investigation found that medical staff conducted an ultrasound of Brown's legs about 24 hours before she died, which did not reveal any clots. One nurse claimed she saw Brown put on her pants and stand.

"The sad reality is that emergency departments across the country are often a place of last resort for many people in our society who suffer from complex social problems that become medical issues when they are not addressed," Becker said. "It is unfortunate that it takes a tragic event like this to call attention to a crisis in our midst."

Experts say the condition Brown suffered, called deep vein thrombosis, can develop within hours.

Meanwhile, the experience of having her daughter's death in the news has left Dorothy Davis of Normandy once again unable to sleep or eat — as she was just after her daughter died.

"It's brought everything back up," she said. "And it's just so horrible to learn just how selfish people really are because nobody is admitting they did anything wrong in this."

The story has attracted attention this week from other media outlets, including the Los Angeles Times and Washington Post. A Facebook page titled "Justice for Anna Brown," was created Tuesday and has about 12,000 followers.

A petition in support of health care for all Americans in honor of Brown has gotten more than 20,000 signatures.

Locally, radio talk shows have discussed Brown's case. The Rev. Larry Rice marched with a group of about 20 people Tuesday, including two of Brown's sisters, to the St. Louis County government complex, demanding that Brown's death be investigated for criminal misconduct and that the county mirror the city's efforts in offering shelters to the homeless.

"It is so amazing that so many people care," Davis said.

Rice, director of New Life Evangelistic Center, also is planning a march from the St. Louis County government complex to St. Mary's hospital next Friday in Brown's honor.

[donnay]

And people want universal health care? This story makes me sick!! No humanity!!!!!!!!

[randfan7]

Another casualty of the medical/enforcement complex.


In what way is she a casualty of the medical complex? They treated her for free. Are you implying that they are lying about the treatment that she received for free?

[Acala]

So is it your position that:

A. The woman was entitled to more free medical care?

B. The cops should not enforce trespass laws?

[randfan7]

So is it your position that:
A. The woman was entitled to more free medical care?
B. The cops should not enforce trespass laws?

That is what I'm wondering. The woman got free care from 3 different hospitals. Either all 3 hospitals were in on it lying or her illness was not detectable for some reason.

[dannno]

B. The cops should not enforce trespass laws?

How about people in wheelchairs don't need to go to jail for trying to 'trespass' at a hospital?

It would be a lot cheaper for the state if the cops just drove her home and let her find her own way back to the hospital.

[slamhead]

The underlying problem here is the war on drugs. Hospitals are now of the mind set that anyone coming in for unspecified pains are just looking to get prescriptions for pain medications. I guarantee this was the unspoken thought when they were treating this woman. The fact that she went to three different medical facilities probably was used against her. This is really sad.

[randfan7]

How about people in wheelchairs don't need to go to jail for trying to 'trespass' at a hospital?

It would be a lot cheaper for the state if the cops just drove her home and let her find her own way back to the hospital.

FTA:


The homeless mother of two had been to three hospitals within a week complaining of leg pain. Police escorted her out of St. Louis University Hospital. Richmond Heights police then arrested her hours later after she insisted she received inadequate care and refused to leave St. Mary's.

If there were no shelters available, taking her to a jailcell might have been the humanitarian thing to do.

[Anti Federalist]

+rep


How about people in wheelchairs don't need to go to jail for trying to 'trespass' at a hospital?

It would be a lot cheaper for the state if the cops just drove her home and let her find her own way back to the hospital.

[angelatc]

The underlying problem here is the war on drugs. Hospitals are now of the mind set that anyone coming in for unspecified pains are just looking to get prescriptions for pain medications. I guarantee this was the unspoken thought when they were treating this woman. The fact that she went to three different medical facilities probably was used against her. This is really sad.

That's a good point, but blood clots are hard to detect. I have (well, had) a friend who died from a blood clot. She had broken her leg, they told her what to look out for. She developed the symptoms, called an ambulance, went to the hospital. They couldn't find anything, so they sent her home. Then she died.

She had excellent insurance.

[donnay]

In what way is she a casualty of the medical complex? They treated her for free. Are you implying that they are lying about the treatment that she received for free?

Let me see...if someone is telling you they cannot walk their legs are hurting them, it is incumbent upon the doctor to have some idea--like phlebitis/Thrombosis?


The problem is there are no more diagnosticians--they rely too heavily on machines for answers!!

[randfan7]

Let me see...if someone is telling you they cannot walk their legs are hurting them, it is incumbent upon the doctor to have some idea--like phlebitis/Thrombosis?
The problem is there are no more diagnosticians--they rely too heavily on machines for answers!!

So, you are saying that should have treated her indefinitely for free even though they could find no problems?

[donnay]

So, you are saying that should have treated her indefinitely for free even though they could find no problems?


There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!


A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!!

[Anti Federalist]

So, you are saying that should have treated her indefinitely for free even though they could find no problems?

Would Ron Paul have thrown her back out in the street to be arrested and die on the floor of a jail cell?

Jesus...

[randfan7]

Would Ron Paul have thrown her back out in the street to be arrested and die on the floor of a jail cell?
Jesus...

Do we infinite resources? You say jail cell, would it be better if it was under a bridge somewhere? If they had no shelters to take the homeless woman, I can see how they might have decided to "arrest" her in order to give her a roof and bed to sleep on.

[Acala]

Would Ron Paul have thrown her back out in the street to be arrested and die on the floor of a jail cell?

Jesus...

How many homeless invalids have you taken in? If the answer is zero, you might want to back off on juging the limits of the charity of others.

[Anti Federalist]

Do we infinite resources? You say jail cell, would it be better if it was under a bridge somewhere? If they had no shelters to take the homeless woman, I can see how they might have decided to "arrest" her in order to give her a roof and bed to sleep on.

C'mon, she was not arrested out of any altruistic motives.

She was arrested because she caused a scene.

She was making a scene because her legs stopped working and she was dying.

[Brian4Liberty]

As much as we worship Doctors and the Medical system, they are reactive and treat obvious emergencies. They are not so good at pro-active treatment or diagnosis. Who pays does not matter.

[randfan7]

Sounds to me like some of you are afraid to state your true position, which is that everybody should get unlimited free healthcare. don't be afraid, come out and say it.

[randfan7]

C'mon, she was not arrested out of any altruistic motives.
She was arrested because she caused a scene.
She was making a scene because her legs stopped working and she was dying.

So yes, it would be better for her to dump her in an alley somewhere?

[Anti Federalist]

How many homeless invalids have you taken in? If the answer is zero, you might want to back off on juging the limits of the charity of others.

Wow, RPF is in a harsh mood today.

Normally, I would have come back at you with some smart ass remark about how you have no idea what type of charity I perform, followed by a cordial invitation to go and fornicate yourself with an iron bar.

I gues I'm in a better mood than the rest of the forum.

The number is greater than zero.

[donnay]

Sounds to me like some of you are afraid to state your true position, which is that everybody should get unlimited free healthcare. don't be afraid, come out and say it.

You have missed the mark by yards. You being a complete imbecile, and your sheer lack for humanity is quite telling.

[Acala]

There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!


A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!!

hinsight is always 20/20. People die. All the time. Modern medicine is pretty good but it is a LONG way from defeating death.

Additionally, hospitals, and other similar institutions, have a problem called triage. They have limited resources and a need that always exceeds it. They also have a constant stream of people who don't really need the resource - drug addicts looking for drugs, homeless people looking for a place to spend the night, emotionally disturbed looking for attention, the overly dramatic looking for a place to whine, and so on. They must sift through all of this, along with a stream of people who really need the resource but in varying degrees od urgency, and they must do it FAST. Second-guessing the FREE care they gave this woman is unfair.

[randfan7]

You have missed the mark by yards. You being a complete imbecile, and you sheer lack for humanity is quite telling.

No, i have no lack of humanity. I'm stating reality. She went to 3 hospitals, none of them could find the problem. So what are they supposed to do? Treat her indefinitely?

[mike6623]

There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!


A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!!

Not to sound rude, but they were probably without their mother for quite some time.

And Corrections officers are not doctors, so, if she comes from the hospital, and they said she was fine...are they supposed to not believe that? Unless, she was bleeding profusely or something why else would they not believe that? It is sad, I must admit

[donnay]

How many homeless invalids have you taken in? If the answer is zero, you might want to back off on juging the limits of the charity of others.

Sorry that is a bad analogy. Just look at the way invalid vets are treated. I have helped plenty of them, and that means by extension AF has too!

[donnay]

No, i have no lack of humanity. I'm stating reality. She went to 3 hospitals, none of them could find the problem. So what are they supposed to do? Treat her indefinitely?

The reality is that hospital care is a dismal failure. Someone that has thrombosis doesn't need infinite care, they need rest and a blood thinner, immediately.

[randfan7]

It is sad, I must admit

It is sad. But it doesn't mean the people that rendered her free aid are at fault.

[randfan7]

The reality is that hospital care is a dismal failure. Someone that has thrombosis doesn't need infinite care, they need rest and a blood thinner, immediately.[


You need a diagnosis of thrombosis first don't you?

[Acala]

Wow, RPF is in a harsh mood today.

Normally, I would have come back at you with some smart ass remark about how you have no idea what type of charity I perform, followed by a cordial invitation to go and fornicate yourself with an iron bar.

I gues I'm in a better mood than the rest of the forum.

The number is greater than zero.

Good for you. You are a better man than I am for taking care of sick strangers. So judge away since you think you are qualified. I have not so I don't feel free to judge the quality of other people's charity. The woman got some free health care. That's better than none, which is what she was ENTITLED to get. And then she violated the property rights of others. Need does not justify ignoring other people's rights.

[donnay]

It is sad. But it doesn't mean the people that rendered her free aid are at fault.

Incompetence is all around us. Don't forget our charitable tax paying dollars that the government used to subsidize hospitals!

[bolil]

"One nurse claimed she saw Brown put on her pants and stand."... nuff said.
.
.
................ and who does she work for? Presumably she works for us? correct? The police brought her there... no?

"A St. Mary's doctor described Brown as exhibiting "no distress" during an examination Richmond Heights police requested before taking her to jail, according to a federal investigation into the hospital's conduct.

"My legs don't work!" Brown yelled as police wheeled her out of the hospital after the exam. Officers dragged her into the jail and left her on the floor of a jail cell, where she died."

So that would make it, safe to say without research I hope, a tax payer funded medical exam? And who here, if faced with the choice, would have refused to foot the bill if necessary, to save the womans life. If she decides later she wanted to die, she would be free to volunteer her usable organs for harvest and to so die while saving others... not a bad hue for posterity. The point is those people (Individual medical personnel and police) committed neglect, and that neglect lead the ultimate deprivation of liberty: the death of another person. Is their humor in the story, for a cynical imagination... yes. "My legs don't work!" is that honest colloquial literature? Or poor grammar done by the author?

[randfan7]

Incompetence is all around us. Don't forget our charitable tax paying dollars that the government used to subsidize hospitals!
You'll get no argument from me there. But still, it was better treatment than she paid for and from 3 different hospitals! I happen to like Sen. Rand's position of letting doctors deduct ALL pro-bono work from their income taxes. I think he should expand it to cover nurses as well.

[Anti Federalist]

Good for you. You are a better man than I am for taking care of sick strangers. So judge away since you think you are qualified. I have not so I don't feel free to judge the quality of other people's charity. The woman got some free health care. That's better than none, which is what she was ENTITLED to get. And then she violated the property rights of others. Need does not justify ignoring other people's rights.

All I'm judging is the continual increase in the propensity of cops to throw people in jail for the slightest thing.

The women was dying, she knew something was wrong, and they arrested her, threw her in the clink, where she, surprise, died.

I don't have all the answers, never claimed to have all the answers and never claimed sainthood either.

I'm just sure of one thing: I don't like the idea of people being thrown in prison for making a scene because they're dying and nobody seems able or willing to help.

If that makes me a communist or some such, well, so be it then.

Not to mention, my family just came through an ugly, close encounter with the hospital/medical/police complex and it's left a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Acala]

All I'm judging is the continual increase in the propensity of cops to throw people in jail for the slightest thing.

The women was dying, she knew something was wrong, and they arrested her, threw her in the clink, where she, surprise, died.

I don't have all the answers, never claimed to have all the answers and never claimed sainthood either.

I'm just sure of one thing: I don't like the idea of people being thrown in prison for making a scene because they're dying and nobody seems able or willing to help.

If that makes me a communist or some such, well, so be it then.

Not to mention, my family just came through an ugly, close encounter with the hospital/medical/police complex and it's left a bitter taste in my mouth.

The health care system sucks. We agree.

MANY cops are bullies. We agree.

There are MANY things that are illegal that should not be. We agree.

That is probably close enough to full agreement.

[Anti Federalist]

The healtyh care system sucks. We agree.

MANY cops are bullies. We agree.

There are MAHNY things that are illegal that should not be. We agree.

That is probably close enough to full agreement.

Agreed.

[angelatc]

You need a diagnosis of thrombosis first don't you?

It's pretty easy to diagnose in retrospect. Like I said above, I had a friend who was the classic case. They were specifically looking for it in her, and still could not find it.

But because she wasn't a poster child for single-payer health care and mandated compassion, nobody wants to talk about her.

[fisharmor]

Sounds to me like some of you are afraid to state your true position, which is that everybody should get unlimited free healthcare. don't be afraid, come out and say it.

My true position is that doctors should make an attempt to heal the sick.
My further position is that when doctors utterly fail in their basic duty (healing the sick) they ought not to point fingers at the state and utter the divine incantation of blame-shifting: "We did everything within protocol".

My position is the libertarian position. The state is to blame, again.

[donnay]

You need a diagnosis of thrombosis first don't you?


Yes, indeed. That is where we began this argument. The incompetence of doctors not being able to figure out that if the lady said she couldn't walk and was in excruciating pain they might want to get her on a blood thinner immediately. I am not even a doctor and that was my first reaction once reading the article.

The bottom line is she was indigent and people just don't care--that's the sad truth!

[angelatc]

Yes, indeed. That is where we began this argument. The incompetence of doctors not being able to figure out that if the lady said she couldn't walk and was in excruciating pain they might want to get her on a blood thinner immediately. I am not even a doctor and that was my first reaction once reading the article.

The bottom line is she was indigent and people just don't care--that's the sad truth!

That's not the truth. The truth is that she was examined by 3 different medical teams and none of them found it.
The investigation found that medical staff conducted an ultrasound of Brown's legs about 24 hours before she died, which did not reveal any clots.



Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1quzIrgwZ

[fisharmor]

I also think the socialized medicine argument doesn't hold any water.
Two young children are now inevitably going to end up on the government dole.
I don't think that's going to total up to less than the cost of a competent diagnosis and a blood thinner.

[randfan7]

The bottom line is she was indigent and people just don't care--that's the sad truth!

I wish I too was born with the ability to see what is in others' hearts. I'm sure that is it, nobody cares.

[angelatc]

I also think the socialized medicine argument doesn't hold any water.
Two young children are now inevitably going to end up on the government dole.
I don't think that's going to total up to less than the cost of a competent diagnosis and a blood thinner.

Again, 3 different hospitals ran tests on her. People die sometimes, even those that go to hospitals.

[donnay]

That's not the truth. The truth is that she was examined by 3 different medical teams and none of them found it.
The investigation found that medical staff conducted an ultrasound of Brown's legs about 24 hours before she died, which did not reveal any clots.



Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1quzIrgwZ


Post #11

Let me see...if someone is telling you they cannot walk their legs are hurting them, it is incumbent upon the doctor to have some idea--like phlebitis/Thrombosis?

The problem is there are no more diagnosticians--they rely too heavily on machines for answers!!

Post #13

There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!

A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!!

[Ender]

Sounds to me like some of you are afraid to state your true position, which is that everybody should get unlimited free healthcare. don't be afraid, come out and say it.

Sounds like it was a Catholic hospital and yes, they do treat for free- part of their mission.

[fisharmor]

Again, 3 different hospitals ran tests on her. People die sometimes, even those that go to hospitals.

I'm not saying they don't.
I'm saying that when random people (ok not *that* random) show up in internet fora to pronounce that they know about this condition, that's a pretty big clue that we're not talking about some great unknown here.
If people who aren't physicians know about this, that means the medical professionals fucked up.
The fact that three different hospitals failed to diagnose it isn't proof that it was undiagnosable.
It's proof that the system they're operating under is malfunctioning.

[angelatc]

Post #11

Let me see...if someone is telling you they cannot walk their legs are hurting them, it is incumbent upon the doctor to have some idea--like phlebitis/Thrombosis?

The problem is there are no more diagnosticians--they rely too heavily on machines for answers!!

Post #13

There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!

A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!!

You are smarter than all the doctors in St Louis. Yeah, we got that already. But aside from calling you, what else, specifically should they have done to make the correct diagnosis?

[angelatc]

I'm not saying they don't.
I'm saying that when random people (ok not *that* random) show up in internet fora to pronounce that they know about this condition, that's a pretty big clue that we're not talking about some great unknown here.
If people who aren't physicians know about this, that means the medical professionals fucked up.
The fact that three different hospitals failed to diagnose it isn't proof that it was undiagnosable.
It's proof that the system they're operating under is malfunctioning.

No, it's proof that medicine isn't a perfect science. They can do everything right, and yet people will still die.

People on the internet making the diagnosis post mortem aren't part of the equation, unless you honestly believe that all unexplained leg pain is obviously thrombosis. If that's the case, then there's really no need for the discussion to go any farther.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not saying they don't.
I'm saying that when random people (ok not *that* random) show up in internet fora to pronounce that they know about this condition, that's a pretty big clue that we're not talking about some great unknown here.
If people who aren't physicians know about this, that means the medical professionals fucked up.
The fact that three different hospitals failed to diagnose it isn't proof that it was undiagnosable.
It's proof that the system they're operating under is malfunctioning.

This.

Obviously something was wrong.

And because somebody, somewhere in this whole cluster fuck, got a case of the red ass because this women was making a scene trying to convey the fact that "Hey, something is seriously wrong with me!", they called cops, who do what they do best, throw people in jail, where she died.

[specsaregood]

If that makes me a communist or some such, well, so be it then.
I knew it!

[donnay]

You are smarter than all the doctors in St Louis. Yeah, we got that already. But aside from calling you, what else, specifically should they have done to make the correct diagnosis?

You really are a class act, Angela. Thank God you're not a doctor, your bedside manner would really suck.

[Diurdi]

Medical professionals do not have a 100% success rate, no matter how good they are, because the machines they use are not 100%.

I'm fairly certain you have all sorts of lunatics who demand they recieve prescription level painkillers from the hospital to satisfy their addiction, by faking pain. According to articles, she had some sort of injury in her foot that would heal itself after some time, but caused a lot of pain.

[tttppp]

This is pretty much consistent of my experience in hospitals. I tell them I have a serious condition that needs to get fixed, they tell me "you're fine...get out...and pay us thousands of dollars for wasting 5 minutes of our time." Complete piss poor care.

[angelatc]

This.

Obviously something was wrong.

And because somebody, somewhere in this whole cluster fuck, got a case of the red ass because this women was making a scene trying to convey the fact that "Hey, something is seriously wrong with me!", they called cops, who do what they do best, throw people in jail, where she died.

She would likely have died anywhere she happened to land. Like it or not, DVT isn't the obvious diagnosis that people here want to pretend that it is.

[tttppp]

Medical professionals do not have a 100% successrate, no matter how good they are, because the machines they use are not 100%.

I'm fairly certain you have all sorts of lunatics who demand they recieve prescription level painkillers from the hospital to satisfy their addiction, by faking pain. According to articles, she had some sort of injury in her foot that would heal itself after some time, but caused a lot of pain.

The machines may not have a 100% success rate, but doctors assume they do have a 100% success rate. If a test comes back negative, they just assume you are delusional and have no problems.

[angelatc]

You really are a class act, Angela. Thank God you're not a doctor, your bedside manner would really suck.

The doctor that saved my life (http://beta.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-william-spanenberg-x99xj/quality#) had a horrible personality. He was an arrogant prick that wouldn't even speak directly to me until he realized he could publish a paper about me. The nicest doctor I ever met (http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Bret_House) was not gifted in unusual diagnosis, apparently.

You didn't answer the question. Since ultrasound is considered the best way to detect a DVT, and the fact that they ran at least one indicates they were probably looking for it.....what would you have done to make the diagnosis? Bonus points if you can name 5 other conditions that can produce the same symptoms, and I'll shut up and leave Ron Paul Forums forever if you can tell me, in layman's terms, damage they could have done if they had prescribed a "just in case" blood thinner and the ultimate diagnosis was different.

[tttppp]

Again, 3 different hospitals ran tests on her. People die sometimes, even those that go to hospitals.

Chinese traditional medicine would have fixed her problem and saved her live. People do die in hospitals, but a large percentage of them die there because doctors are incompetent and western medicine is worthless.

[angelatc]

The machines may not have a 100% success rate, but doctors assume they do have a 100% success rate. If a test comes back negative, they just assume you are delusional and have no problems.

NM: Chinese Medicine says it all.

[tttppp]

No, i have no lack of humanity. I'm stating reality. She went to 3 hospitals, none of them could find the problem. So what are they supposed to do? Treat her indefinitely?

How about fix the problem? In most cases, when someone has pain, there is an underlying health problem.

[tttppp]

If you believe that, you *are* delusional.

How am I delusional? I've been to many doctors before. Thats what they do. They read the results of tests as if they came directly from God. And when they turn up negative, they are glad to kick you out and bill you as much as possible.

[dannno]

If there were no shelters available, taking her to a jailcell might have been the humanitarian thing to do.

If it were voluntary.

[Diurdi]

The machines may not have a 100% success rate, but doctors assume they do have a 100% success rate. If a test comes back negative, they just assume you are delusional and have no problems. Didn't they run three tests on her and could not find anything?

If you can't help, then you can't help.

[angelatc]

How about fix the problem? In most cases, when someone has pain, there is an underlying health problem.

You just said it yourself! "In most cases....." Did you read the article? The doctor said she wasn't even in pain.

[angelatc]

Didn't they run three tests on her and could not find anything?

If you can't help, then you can't help.

No, three hospitals treated her. I suspect they ran far more than 3 tests on her.

[randfan7]

If it were voluntary.

Trespassing only holds up if you are asked to leave. Sounds likes he was asked to leave repeatedly and voluntarily stayed. I can see somebody seeing giving a homeless person a night in a jailcell as humanitarian.

[angelatc]

Trespassing only holds up if you are asked to leave. Sounds likes he was asked to leave repeatedly and voluntarily stayed. I can see somebody seeing giving a homeless person a night in a jailcell as humanitarian.

Sure, and I can vouch that homeless people will complain of pain in order to score a night in a comfy cot in the ER.

[donnay]

The doctor that saved my life had a horrible personality. He was an arrogant prick that wouldn't even speak directly to me until he realized he could publish a paper about me. The nicest doctor I ever met was not gifted in unusual diagnosis, apparently.

You didn't answer the question. Since ultrasound is considered the best way to detect a DVT, what would you have done to make the diagnosis? Bonus points if you can name 5 other conditions that can produce the same symptoms, and I'll shut up and leave Ron Paul Forums forever if you can tell me, in layman's terms, damage they could have done if they had prescribed a "just in case" blood thinner and the ultimate diagnosis was different.

Cellulitis, compartment syndrome, popliteal or Baker’s cyst, arterial vascular disease, and Lymphedema. Did I pass the test Nurse Ratched?

They could have taken the precautions in thinking it could be a blood clot--even aspirin would have been good to thin the blood. Then they could have done an MRI--but since we know how expensive that is, of course it wasn't done.

[angelatc]

Cellulitis, compartment syndrome, popliteal or Baker’s cyst, arterial vascular disease, and Lymphedema. Did I pass the test Nurse Ratched?

They could have taken the precautions in thinking it could be a blood clot--even aspirin would have been good to thin the blood. Then they could have done an MRI--but since we know how expensive that is, of course it wasn't done.

You can get an MRI for $400. And it appears that she was already enrolled in MedicAid, so she had government health insurance already, too.

I was hoping you'd mention diabetes, but that's fine. We don't know that she didn't get an MRI. We do know that she got an ultrasound, which is considered more effective than an MRI at detecting them.

I know you're convinced that she died only because people simply hate poor people - but then how do you explain the death of my friend? She had insurance, money wasn't the object. Additionally, she had a condition that meant she was at a higher risk for a DVT than the dead woman you're grieving, yet despite seeking medical attention as instructed, she's just as dead.

Just a few weeks ago, another friend's husband died of pneumonia. He was in the hospital, too.

Here's the deal: sometimes sick people die. There's nothing here to indicate that the woman didn't get a routine standard of medical care. It's sad that her kids are orphans, but my friend's kids lost their Mom too. Real life sucks, but if you think I'm going to advocate giving better medical to mothers than other members of society, well, I guess you can guess how far I'll support that.

As far as I'm concerned, this is just the Dems ramping up the case for a single payer system, which would ironically mean that none of us will ever get an MRI in this instance.

From the article:

"And it's just so horrible to learn just how selfish people really are because nobody is admitting they did anything wrong in this."

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1qvM6QMLV
Ain't that America. If somebody died, it can't just be a tragedy, or God's will....even if everybody did everything exactly right, we absolutely need somebody to blame.

[PaulConventionWV]

So is it your position that:

A. The woman was entitled to more free medical care?

B. The cops should not enforce trespass laws?

I think the problem is when, despite her obvious condition, they DRAGGED her into a jail cell and left her on the floor. Should the cops not be responsible for that?

[angelatc]

Here's a woman who lived in New Zealand. They have government care there. She complained of pain for six years before she died.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/6299683/Woman-dies-after-cancer-goes-untreated


(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/6299683/Woman-dies-after-cancer-goes-untreated)

[PaulConventionWV]

+rep

Well, randfan7 does have a point. She was homeless. Ergo, no home to be taken to.

[angelatc]

I think the problem is when, despite her obvious condition, they DRAGGED her into a jail cell and left her on the floor. Should the cops not be responsible for that?

That didn't kill her. They could have taken her back to the homeless shelter and she would be just as dead. Reading the woman's background, she has a history of psychological problems.

[PaulConventionWV]

Not to sound rude, but they were probably without their mother for quite some time.

And Corrections officers are not doctors, so, if she comes from the hospital, and they said she was fine...are they supposed to not believe that? Unless, she was bleeding profusely or something why else would they not believe that? It is sad, I must admit

Maybe it's because they had to drag her...?

[randfan7]

As far as I'm concerned, this is just the Dems ramping up the case for a single payer system, which would ironically mean that none of us will ever get an MRI in this instance.

I'm sure it is coincidence that this comes up just as obamacare is back in the news due to the SC hearings.

[randfan7]

Maybe it's because they had to drag her...?

You think they dont have to drag people into cells every single day?

[PaulConventionWV]

"One nurse claimed she saw Brown put on her pants and stand."... nuff said.
.
.
................ and who does she work for? Presumably she works for us? correct? The police brought her there... no?

"A St. Mary's doctor described Brown as exhibiting "no distress" during an examination Richmond Heights police requested before taking her to jail, according to a federal investigation into the hospital's conduct.

"My legs don't work!" Brown yelled as police wheeled her out of the hospital after the exam. Officers dragged her into the jail and left her on the floor of a jail cell, where she died."

So that would make it, safe to say without research I hope, a tax payer funded medical exam? And who here, if faced with the choice, would have refused to foot the bill if necessary, to save the womans life. If she decides later she wanted to die, she would be free to volunteer her usable organs for harvest and to so die while saving others... not a bad hue for posterity. The point is those people (Individual medical personnel and police) committed neglect, and that neglect lead the ultimate deprivation of liberty: the death of another person. Is their humor in the story, for a cynical imagination... yes. "My legs don't work!" is that honest colloquial literature? Or poor grammar done by the author?

Uh... wha? What's wrong with the grammar of that complete sentence? I mean, she could have used a better word than "work", but grammatically, it is a complete sentence. It is also a quote, not anything done by the author. They were just quoting her. Do you understand that?

[angelatc]

I'm sure it is coincidence that this comes up just as obamacare is back in the news due to the SC hearings.

She died in September....so it's newsworthy now. Makes sense to me (not).

[PaulConventionWV]

That's not the truth. The truth is that she was examined by 3 different medical teams and none of them found it.
The investigation found that medical staff conducted an ultrasound of Brown's legs about 24 hours before she died, which did not reveal any clots.



Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1quzIrgwZ


So we should just rely on the ultrasound when there are pretty obvious symptoms here? If the machine doesn't say anything, she's either faking it or she's fine.

Also, the truth is that it very well could have been indigence as the reason she wasn't cared for. The fact that she saw 3 doctors doesn't make it any different. I know at least three people who look down on the homeless, don't you? How many do you wanna bet are doctors?

[PaulConventionWV]

Again, 3 different hospitals ran tests on her. People die sometimes, even those that go to hospitals.

Yes, people die. The point is, she shouldn't have. "Tests" means nothing. Are you going to stop being so dogmatic now?

[randfan7]

So we should just rely on the ultrasound when there are pretty obvious symptoms here? If the machine doesn't say anything, she's either faking it or she's fine.

Yeah, thats it. Only 2 possible answers: she's faking or she's fine. couldn't be some other cause. I sure hope you aren't a doctor.

[PaulConventionWV]

You are smarter than all the doctors in St Louis. Yeah, we got that already. But aside from calling you, what else, specifically should they have done to make the correct diagnosis?

Don't you get the point? The doctors should have known! How can you even argue with that?

[PaulConventionWV]

You really are a class act, Angela. Thank God you're not a doctor, your bedside manner would really suck.

The class just radiates from her very eye sockets. How could anyone get more classy than she?

[angelatc]

Don't you get the point? The doctors should have known! How can you even argue with that?

Your statement is wrong so many levels that I can only be hopeful that you're being sarcastic.

Oops - apparently you're a member of my "I hate that sarcastic bitch!" club, so you're not being sarcastic. OK - how should they have known? Through psychic powers?

[dannno]

I can see somebody seeing giving a homeless person a night in a jailcell as humanitarian.


Again, only if it is voluntary.

"Miss, is there somewhere we can drop you off? I'm sorry, but we can't take you back to the hospital."

"No, I'm homeless, can you take me to jail?"

"Ok"

[angelatc]

The class just radiates from her very eye sockets. How could anyone get more classy than she?

I've never pretended to be anything that I'm not - a pretentious, obnoxious know it all ill tempered overly blunt bitch. Sadly for you, that still doesn't make me wrong.

[Danke]

I've never pretended to be anything that I'm not - a pretentious, obnoxious know it all ill tempered overly blunt bitch. Sadly for you, that still doesn't make me wrong.

Do you have a sister?

[randfan7]

Again, only if it is voluntary.
"Miss, is there somewhere we can drop you off? I'm sorry, but we can't take you back to the hospital."
"No, I'm homeless, can you take me to jail?"
"Ok"

And you have no information to say that didn't happen. And anyways, the trespassing itself is voluntary.

[angelatc]

Do you have a sister?

I would never share you with anybody.

[tttppp]

Didn't they run three tests on her and could not find anything?

If you can't help, then you can't help.

Like I said, Chinese traditional medicine would have fixed the problem. So they could have helped.

[donnay]

You can get an MRI for $400. And it appears that she was already enrolled in MedicAid, so she had government health insurance already, too.

I was hoping you'd mention diabetes, but that's fine. We don't know that she didn't get an MRI. We do know that she got an ultrasound, which is considered more effective than an MRI at detecting them.

I know you're convinced that she died only because people simply hate poor people - but then how do you explain the death of my friend? She had insurance, money wasn't the object. Additionally, she had a condition that meant she was at a higher risk for a DVT than the dead woman you're grieving, yet despite seeking medical attention as instructed, she's just as dead.

Just a few weeks ago, another friend's husband died of pneumonia. He was in the hospital, too.

Here's the deal: sometimes sick people die. There's nothing here to indicate that the woman didn't get a routine standard of medical care. It's sad that her kids are orphans, but my friend's kids lost their Mom too. Real life sucks, but if you think I'm going to advocate giving better medical to mothers than other members of society, well, I guess you can guess how far I'll support that.

As far as I'm concerned, this is just the Dems ramping up the case for a single payer system, which would ironically mean that none of us will ever get an MRI in this instance.

From the article: Ain't that America. If somebody died, it can't just be a tragedy, or God's will....even if everybody did everything exactly right, we absolutely need somebody to blame.


Going back to what fisharmor said in post #46 pretty much sums it all up.

I do not have the time nor the inclination to explain away my years of researching. I have come to my conclusions because I have been researching this for years. I am convinced that the medical community are actually killing people rather than helping them. Suffice it to say that eugenics is alive and well in the good ole' U.S.A., extensively financed by corporate philanthropies, specifically the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation, and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Many people are either desensitized or just plain ignorant of these atrocities.

"One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic."
~Joseph Stalin


Guns don't kill people, police and doctors do!!

[specsaregood]

Like I said, Chinese traditional medicine would have fixed the problem. So they could have helped.

Yes, china the magical wonderland where nobody ever gets sick, nobody ever dies and nobody ever gets old. No wonder they have over a billion people!

[tttppp]

You just said it yourself! "In most cases....." Did you read the article? The doctor said she wasn't even in pain.

The patient said she was in pain. Thats whats most important. The patient has the best clue as to whether she is in pain or not.

[tttppp]

Yes, china the magical wonderland where nobody ever gets sick, nobody ever dies and nobody ever gets old. No wonder they have over a billion people!

Their health care system is better than ours. Maybe our government should take notes.

[dannno]

I would never share you with anybody.

So you keep Danke all to yourself?

[dannno]

Their health care system is better than ours. Maybe our government should take notes.

That's a pretty bad idea..

Maybe PEOPLE should take note of what works over there, we can take away the laws that prevent people from using those types of treatments and let the market work it out.

[tttppp]

That's a pretty bad idea..

Maybe PEOPLE should take note of what works over there, we can take away the laws that prevent people from using those types of treatments and let the market work it out.

The government is the one that has to remove their laws. A lot of PEOPLE know this, but there's nothing we can do. The government is in charge and until they change their minds this is the crap we have.

[specsaregood]

Their health care system is better than ours. Maybe our government should take notes.

Oh, I agree. The US should definitely try to be more like china.

[angelatc]

Going back to what fisharmor said in post #46 pretty much sums it all up.

I do not have the time nor the inclination to explain away my years of researching. I have come to my conclusions because I have been researching this for years. I am convinced that the medical community are actually killing people rather than helping them.

I'm sure you are, dear.

[angelatc]

So you keep Danke all to yourself?

You're next.

[LibertyEagle]

Oh, I agree. The US should definitely try to be more like china.

ROFL

[Son of Detroit]

What's with the sudden disdain for science and private property rights on RPF?

[dannno]

What's with the sudden disdain for science and private property rights on RPF?

People who are unarmed and whose legs don't work do not pose a danger to society and don't need to be in jail *unless they ask to go

[AME3]

She would likely have died anywhere she happened to land. Like it or not, DVT isn't the obvious diagnosis that people here want to pretend that it is.
Yes that is true...

[Son of Detroit]

People who are unarmed and whose legs don't work do not pose a danger to society and don't need to be in jail *unless they ask to go

Trespassing is trespassing. I don't care who it is or what condition they're in. If they refuse to leave the premises of private property when asked, then they should face the consequences.

[donnay]

I'm sure you are, dear.

You're still here? I answered your bonus question in post #67.

[dannno]

Trespassing is trespassing. I don't care who it is or what condition they're in. If they refuse to leave the premises of private property when asked, then they should face the consequences.

I agree, they should be removed from the premises.

Dangerous/violent people should go to jail.

[AME3]

How about fix the problem? In most cases, when someone has pain, there is an underlying health problem.
accupuncture and rhino horn woulda saved her...without a doubt! If only she and one of her kids had been in China...

[AME3]

How many homeless invalids have you taken in? If the answer is zero, you might want to back off on juging the limits of the charity of others.
touché

[nobody's_hero]

Hmm. Not sure about this one, AF.

You're getting a bit sloppy.

My take is that I can't really judge the hospital for this action. I'm just a student nurse, but healthcare providers see it a lot. People will travel to a half dozen facilities in search of narcotic pain medications. Those people DO need help, more help than being arrested and jailed (mostly they need psychiatric help and drug abuse counseling, and perhaps if the facility had psych services available and they had done that, they might have kept this person long enough to diagnose a DVT, and that they were wrong with their first impressions).

We sometimes forget that while our government is intended to operate on the presumption of innocence (which it hasn't done a good job of, lately), ordinary people are sometimes going to make assumptions of others before any facts come to light, however wrong they may turn out to be.

What follows, usually, if you determine that people should not be free to make erroneous assumptions, is that government steps in and tells hospitals that they must treat so-and-so patients regardless of the hospital's perception, which typically ends up in abuse at the cost of the hospital, and increased government control.

One similar example is that according to Georgia law, ERs*must* treat all women in labor and deliver the child. As noble-intended as that is, it has led to women having deliveries (which, are not really dire emergencies so much as they are things that you have at least 9 months to plan for, but I digress) without taking the necessary steps to ensure that they can first afford them. And a pregnancy is something you can actually see, unlike a blood clot. I mean, if they want to start forcing hospitals to run test after test to determine whether or not someone needs a real fixing, or just a 'quick fix', we're not going to have any hospitals left.

Doctors will often make a personal commitment to treat those in need, and we respect them for that, but we tend to forget that they also have the personal right to refuse treatment.

[fisharmor]

Here's a woman who lived in New Zealand. They have government care there. She complained of pain for six years before she died.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/6299683/Woman-dies-after-cancer-goes-untreated

(http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/6299683/Woman-dies-after-cancer-goes-untreated)

See, everyone! It's ok that our socialist/fascist system of healthcare failed to diagnose a problem, because other socialist/fascist healthcare systems do, too!

[Anti Federalist]

Hmm. Not sure about this one, AF.

You're getting a bit sloppy.

Fair enough.

It is a gray area, no doubt, but I stand by my comments in post 34.

[Anti Federalist]

<snip>

The whole quote would be nice:


I'm just sure of one thing: I don't like the idea of people being thrown in prison for making a scene because they're dying and nobody seems able or willing to help.

If that makes me a communist or some such, well, so be it then.

[tttppp]

accupuncture and rhino horn woulda saved her...without a doubt! If only she and one of her kids had been in China...

Unfortunately its almost impossible to save someone who has no money. Acupuncture cost money. Along with the herbs. And almost no insurance covers acupuncture...no insurance covers herbs. There really needs to be a system in place where doctors/acupuncturist/herbologists are motivated to provide some level of pro bono work.

[donnay]

Unfortunately its almost impossible to save someone who has no money. Acupuncture cost money. Along with the herbs. And almost no insurance covers acupuncture...no insurance covers herbs. There really needs to be a system in place where doctors/acupuncturist/herbologists are motivated to provide some level of pro bono work.

Yes a truly free market. Getting government out of the arena would make a huge difference in the quality of life in general!

[specsaregood]

Oh, I agree. The US should definitely try to be more like china.

ROFL
The sad part being that we are at the point where one could take that side of the debate and hold their own. strong currency? strong manufacturing base? growing middleclass? increasing global power?

just saying...

[Anti Federalist]

The sad part being that we are at the point where one could take that side of the debate and hold their own. strong currency? strong manufacturing base? growing middleclass? increasing global power?

just saying...

"We will sell the capitalists the rope that they hang themselves with".

Goddamned commies.

[specsaregood]

"We will sell the capitalists the rope that they hang themselves with".
Goddamned commies.

hey, at least we still have the moral authority of pointing out all our constitutionally protected civil rights. oh wait! damn commies!

[Nirvikalpa]

Pulmonary embolism.

What the hell.

These are doctors?!


People will travel to a half dozen facilities in search of narcotic pain medications. Those people DO need help, more help than being arrested and jailed (mostly they need psychiatric help and drug abuse counseling, and perhaps if the facility had psych services available and they had done that, they might have kept this person long enough to diagnose a DVT, and that they were wrong with their first impressions)

Most med and nursing students understand the seriousness of leg pain, especially reoccurring.


And a pregnancy is something you can actually see, unlike a blood clot.

Not necessarily true, in 100% of cases.

But besides that, leg pain, again, especially reoccurring, should be treated as a woman rushed to the ER, deep lower abdominal pain, sexually active, 2 weeks late on period is: we treat as an ectopic pregnancy, all the time. We (EMT's) don't risk being wrong.

[James Madison]

What's with the sudden disdain for science and private property rights on RPF?

There's a small but vocal minority that despises any science published in the last 200 years. It's bad, I know.

[row row fight da powah]

One similar example is that according to Georgia law, ERs*must* treat all women in labor and deliver the child. As noble-intended as that is.

Is it really? Or is it that they just want to make sure that when that baby comes out, it is fully vaccinated and ready to be a future customer of big pharma? Laws don't create compassionate, loving beings; only help to prevent.

[PaulConventionWV]

That didn't kill her. They could have taken her back to the homeless shelter and she would be just as dead. Reading the woman's background, she has a history of psychological problems.

Who are you trying to incriminate? Jeez... The treatment is the problem. You're the one trying to tell me we are supposed to think less of her death because she had mental problems? I think in this case she obviously had valid concerns, and I don't see why you would even bring that up unless you were really desperate to turn her into a bad person in our eyes. Just what is the purpose of that? You and your idiot doctor would've been great together.

[PaulConventionWV]

You think they dont have to drag people into cells every single day?

No, they don't have to. Especially if they did nothing wrong.

And don't tell me you can't tell the difference between someone who doesn't want to go to jail and someone who literally can't use their legs...

[PaulConventionWV]

Yeah, thats it. Only 2 possible answers: she's faking or she's fine. couldn't be some other cause. I sure hope you aren't a doctor.

I was being sarcastic. The point is, they treated her as if those were the only two possible answers.

[PaulConventionWV]

I've never pretended to be anything that I'm not - a pretentious, obnoxious know it all ill tempered overly blunt bitch. Sadly for you, that still doesn't make me wrong.

Well, you'll take solace in the fact that you are wrong. The wrongness just emanates from everything you say, but the worst part is that you then act like your "bluntness" is some kind of virtue. Everyone tries to justify being a terrible person if they just can't help it. Maybe you should get help from the medical community you so adore. But no, even I wouldn't encourage that because I realize if you actually did it you might end up dead or crazy. Nobody admires you for being a class A bitch, and it doesn't help validate anything you say. Even when presented with logical posts, you argue dogmatically and still have the gall to insult people and act like it's okay if you're being an asshole as long as you admit it. No wonder you're here. The real world won't treat you as well as we do, will they?

[tttppp]

Who are you trying to incriminate? Jeez... The treatment is the problem. You're the one trying to tell me we are supposed to think less of her death because she had mental problems? I think in this case she obviously had valid concerns, and I don't see why you would even bring that up unless you were really desperate to turn her into a bad person in our eyes. Just what is the purpose of that? You and your idiot doctor would've been great together.

Anytime a patient complains of problems that can't be seen on one of their bullshit tests, doctors claim you have mental problems. My guess is this woman had a history of PHYSICAL problems that were not detected by their machines, so doctors just claimed she was mental. This happens all the time.

Unless a patient is coming into the doctors office just to fuck with him, odds are if the patient is complaining of pain, he has a real physical problem that needs to be addressed. Another issue I have with doctors is that they feel pain is just pain and is not a real physical problem. This is not the case.

[Golding]

Anytime a patient complains of problems that can't be seen on one of their bullshit tests, doctors claim you have mental problems. My guess is this woman had a history of PHYSICAL problems that were not detected by their machines, so doctors just claimed she was mental. This happens all the time.

Unless a patient is coming into the doctors office just to fuck with him, odds are if the patient is complaining of pain, he has a real physical problem that needs to be addressed. Another issue I have with doctors is that they feel pain is just pain and is not a real physical problem. This is not the case.People often act like the doctor is insinuating that it's "all in your head" when the tests are negative and admission criteria isn't met. There isn't a nice way to say it, maybe, but without support for a diagnosis that isn't clinical (clinical diagnoses including wound dehiscence, abscess, cellulitis, appendicitis, etc.), there's no medical basis for admission. Will things sometimes get missed as a result? Yes. But they'll get missed without the so-called "bullshit tests" too.

I'd be interested to see what labs and tests were obtained for the lady, to see how far a diagnosis of DVT was pursued.

[TheTexan]

I thought 16% of my paycheck was supposed to go to healthcare for these people... instead of helping them, they're killing them???!?!?!!

I want my 16% back, motherfuckers

[nobody's_hero]

Most med and nursing students understand the seriousness of leg pain, especially reoccurring.
.

It's not that simple (though it would be nice if it were). Hospitals usually know when a patient has been to several facilities. More often than not, that's a tell-tale sign that they're seeking pain medications. It doesn't always explain why they're seeking pain medications. This hospital made a wrong judgment on the motive. If we want to crucify doctors for occasionally being wrong, we're not going to have any doctors left. As many lawsuits as there are flying around, we've put doctors between a rock and a hard place. Do they spend most of their time doing things that are unnecessary for patients and eating the costs when nothing turns up, or do they risk getting sued when that one patient slips through the cracks every now and then? It's no wonder so many of them just throw in the towel early and play golf for the rest of their lives.

I was a firefighter before I was a student nurse. If I had a dollar for every time someone wanted to call an ambulance for a taxi ride, I'd have enough money to join those doctors in playing golf for the rest of their lives. People have learned that saying they have chest pain = getting pretty much whatever they want. —My point is: there really is no easy answer. I mean, what do you do? Sure, for us low guys on the totem pole, we just do our jobs. Give 'em a ride to the hospital and if it turns out that they were faking it, it's not our problem, we just go get ready for the next call, and we get our paycheck. But someone has to eat the cost of the abuse.

[donnay]

It's not that simple (though it would be nice if it were). Hospitals usually know when a patient has been to several facilities. More often than not, that's a tell-tale sign that they're seeking pain medications. It doesn't always explain why they're seeking pain medications. This hospital made a wrong judgment on the motive. If we want to crucify doctors for occasionally being wrong, we're not going to have any doctors left. As many lawsuits as there are flying around, we've put doctors between a rock and a hard place. Do they spend most of their time doing things that are unnecessary for patients and eating the costs when nothing turns up, or do they risk getting sued when that one patient slips through the cracks every now and then? It's no wonder so many of them just throw in the towel early and play golf for the rest of their lives.

I was a firefighter before I was a student nurse. If I had a dollar for every time someone wanted to call an ambulance for a taxi ride, I'd have enough money to join those doctors in playing golf for the rest of their lives. People have learned that saying they have chest pain = getting pretty much whatever they want. —My point is: there really is no easy answer. I mean, what do you do? Sure, for us low guys on the totem pole, we just do our jobs. Give 'em a ride to the hospital and if it turns out that they were faking it, it's not our problem, we just go get ready for the next call, and we get our paycheck. But someone has to eat the cost of the abuse.

I totally understand what you are sayings...lots of people play the system. I am pissed that government is even involved, to tell you the truth, because it is the people who have to pay dearly for their abuses!

Again their plan has certainly divided this country. The focal point should be humanity, and caring for a fellow human being. Sure mistakes are going to be made, after all we are human. But to turn their backs on a person who is screaming in pain that her legs were hurting, begging for someone to help her. Then to be arrested under the guise of trespassing, to later die in a jail cell, due to a pulmonary embolism, certain doesn't sound very humane. Most people would treat a dog better, seriously. :(

[moostraks]

...
Again their plan has certainly divided this country. The focal point should be humanity, and caring for a fellow human being. Sure mistakes are going to be made, after all we are human. But to turn their backs on a person who is screaming in pain that her legs were hurting, begging for someone to help her. Then to be arrested under the guise of trespassing, to later die in a jail cell, due to a pulmonary embolism, certain doesn't sound very humane. Most people would treat a dog better, seriously. :(

I doubt it. I think you might have too much faith in humanity. I used to do animal rescue work before I almost lost everything because of the neighbors. Same people would demand that someone do something for the animals but it sure wasn't going to be them doing it and where those someones who were angels for the animals lived better not be anywhere near their neighborhoods. People suck. One of the hardest commandments of the two we are told to follow as Christians is to love thy neighbor. I am trying to but boy is it hard most of the time!

[tod evans]

People suck. One of the hardest commandments of the two we are told to follow as Christians is to love thy neighbor.


It's much easier if your nearest neighbor is a couple of miles away!

I don't know how so many people can choose to live in cities......but they do.

[angelatc]

Well, you'll take solace in the fact that you are wrong. The wrongness just emanates from everything you say, but the worst part is that you then act like your "bluntness" is some kind of virtue. Everyone tries to justify being a terrible person if they just can't help it. Maybe you should get help from the medical community you so adore. But no, even I wouldn't encourage that because I realize if you actually did it you might end up dead or crazy. Nobody admires you for being a class A bitch, and it doesn't help validate anything you say. Even when presented with logical posts, you argue dogmatically and still have the gall to insult people and act like it's okay if you're being an asshole as long as you admit it. No wonder you're here. The real world won't treat you as well as we do, will they?

Knowing that part of the country you're from, I loved reading that while imagining the accent you'd be using if you spoke it aloud. Gotta love the Appalachians'.

Just curious - which of my doctors was the idiot? The one with a brilliant clinical mind or the one with the sparkling personality?

I think you and I define logic differently, because I don't think anything you've said has been logical. More like hysterical. You're resorting to attacking me instead of pointing out exactly what any of the three hospitals should have done differently.

But again - changing the subject won't change the fact that I'm still right. The facts are that even though she was treated properly, examined by three different medical teams at three different hospitals...even the federal review board also says she received the proper medical treatment. But you can't seem to grasp that the real world of diagnostics isn't as black and white as you desperately need it to be in. Again, sometimes sick people die.

But wait - perhaps the entire hospital should have devoted all their attentions to this one patient until they could determine exactly what was wrong with her, even if it did turn out to be psychosis. Maybe all those other ER patients could have and should have waited while all resources were devoted to a homeless woman with a history of mental problems.

(Note that I don't think they should have taken her to jail. But they could have taken her to the Paris Hilton, and she would still be dead.)

If you want to change the world, go to medical school and heal everybody. Until then, quit whining that the rest of the world doesn't perform to your standards.

[azxd]

How about people in wheelchairs don't need to go to jail for trying to 'trespass' at a hospital?

It would be a lot cheaper for the state if the cops just drove her home and let her find her own way back to the hospital.Cheaper still if the edge of town was closer :D

[azxd]

C'mon, she was not arrested out of any altruistic motives.

She was arrested because she caused a scene.

She was making a scene because her legs stopped working and she was dying.And now she's dead ... YES this truly is another cause for national concern.

Can I get a tweet of the officers address, and perhaps a NBP bounty ... Some people need to get a grip on reality.

[azxd]

Sounds to me like some of you are afraid to state your true position, which is that everybody should get unlimited free healthcare. don't be afraid, come out and say it.It's hard to support Obamacare on a RP forum ;)

[angelatc]

Anytime a patient complains of problems that can't be seen on one of their bullshit tests, doctors claim you have mental problems.

Unfortunately for you, I am living proof that your statement is false.

[azxd]

You have missed the mark by yards. You being a complete imbecile, and your sheer lack for humanity is quite telling.Oh this thread is gonna be good ... Insults begin on page 1 ... I can hardly wait to see what this devolves into.

[nobody's_hero]

I totally understand what you are sayings...lots of people play the system. I am pissed that government is even involved, to tell you the truth, because it is the people who have to pay dearly for their abuses!

Again their plan has certainly divided this country. The focal point should be humanity, and caring for a fellow human being. Sure mistakes are going to be made, after all we are human. But to turn their backs on a person who is screaming in pain that her legs were hurting, begging for someone to help her. Then to be arrested under the guise of trespassing, to later die in a jail cell, due to a pulmonary embolism, certain doesn't sound very humane. Most people would treat a dog better, seriously. :(

And, I understand the sentiment.But,

This is going to sound harsh, but from a legal "CYA (cover your ass)" standpoint, turning this woman away was the best thing the hospital could do do to protect itself.

If a healthcare provider had accepted and initiated treatment for this woman, and then made a mistake, they could be sued for malpractice.

But to simply not accept her under their care, means that they never assumed responsibility for her life, and therefore can't be held liable. The doctors didn't cause her blood clot.

It sucks. There's no other way to describe it, but it's how things work now-a-days (if you must blame someone, blame the lawyers). I don't think an arrest was necessary, but at some point you have to draw a line between a patient's rights and a doctor's rights.


If you want to change the world, go to medical school and heal everybody. Until then, quit whining that the rest of the world doesn't perform to your standards.

This. As much as it stings, this. ^^^

Really we do need more doctors.

[angelatc]

I The focal point should be humanity, and caring for a fellow human being.

Oh, she died because the world is a cold, heartless machine. Got it.

I am just amazed that so many of you here are taking the liberal route with these pathetic appeals to emotion. (She was a Mom! She was homeless! She was poor!) I'm two steps away from being a hermit, and when I venture out into the world I am always amazed at how warm and caring 95% of the people out there actually are. You'll never get me to buy into the fact that people don't care deeply about each other.

I've said it twice before - she got a routine standard of medical care. She died. Sometimes that happens to sick people.

[azxd]

All I'm judging is the continual increase in the propensity of cops to throw people in jail for the slightest thing.

The women was dying, she knew something was wrong, and they arrested her, threw her in the clink, where she, surprise, died.

I don't have all the answers, never claimed to have all the answers and never claimed sainthood either.

I'm just sure of one thing: I don't like the idea of people being thrown in prison for making a scene because they're dying and nobody seems able or willing to help.

If that makes me a communist or some such, well, so be it then.

Not to mention, my family just came through an ugly, close encounter with the hospital/medical/police complex and it's left a bitter taste in my mouth.I knew there was method to your madness :D

They're all in cahoots and working against you LOL

[angelatc]

Oh this thread is gonna be good ... Insults begin on page 1 ... I can hardly wait to see what this devolves into.

This is a person who thinks that the entire medical community is involved in a secret conspiracy to kill us all. It's fun to poke at her, but there's no chance that any cohesive dialogue will come from it. Because you can't get sanity from insanity, even though many are tempted to try.

[azxd]

Yes, indeed. That is where we began this argument. The incompetence of doctors not being able to figure out that if the lady said she couldn't walk and was in excruciating pain they might want to get her on a blood thinner immediately. I am not even a doctor and that was my first reaction once reading the article.

The bottom line is she was indigent and people just don't care--that's the sad truth!

That's not the truth. The truth is that she was examined by 3 different medical teams and none of them found it.
The investigation found that medical staff conducted an ultrasound of Brown's legs about 24 hours before she died, which did not reveal any clots.




Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1quzIrgwZ

Logic and truth do not fit the portrayal of intentional bias which some think is of utmost importance.

[azxd]

I wish I too was born with the ability to see what is in others' hearts. I'm sure that is it, nobody cares.Ahh ... You catch on quick to the super powers which some possess ;)

[azxd]

Post #11

Let me see...if someone is telling you they cannot walk their legs are hurting them, it is incumbent upon the doctor to have some idea--like phlebitis/Thrombosis?

The problem is there are no more diagnosticians--they rely too heavily on machines for answers!!

Post #13

There obviously was a problem, since she is DEAD! You act as if "for free" is something bad. Doctors used to give pro bono time to patients--that has truly gone by the way side thanks to government interventions and lawyers!

A good doctor would have used his noggin (like diagnosticians used to do) rather than relying on machines to tell them nothing is wrong...it was all in her head.

Now she is dead, and three children are without a mother!! And it's TOTALLY YOUR FAULT for not using your crystal ball and preventing this.

[angelatc]

You're still here? I answered your bonus question in post #67.

No, you didn't. You still haven't told me what could have happened if they gave her a blood thinner and the diagnosis was incorrect, and you haven't told us why you think an MRI would show clots that the ultrasound didn't....you haven't done anything except Google medical conditions that can cause leg pain.

Come on - you gloated that your diagnostic ability was so amazing you were able to tell what was wrong with this woman just from reading a posthumous newspaper account. Please tell us what the hospital should have done differently - bonus points if you can point out anywhere that they diverted from proper medical protocol.

[azxd]

You are smarter than all the doctors in St Louis. Yeah, we got that already. But aside from calling you, what else, specifically should they have done to make the correct diagnosis?The doctors should have done nothing ... This is donnay's fault.
He alone knew what was wrong and should have acted.

[angelatc]

No, i have no lack of humanity. I'm stating reality. She went to 3 hospitals, none of them could find the problem. So what are they supposed to do? Treat her indefinitely?

The point, according to Donnay, is that she died from both a lack of compassion and an insidious plot within the medical community. Poor thing never stood a chance.

[azxd]

Didn't they run three tests on her and could not find anything?

If you can't help, then you can't help.That only flies if you think this thread is about healthcare ... It's another AF cop bashing thread ... It's just being disguised.

[angelatc]

The doctors should have done nothing ... This is donnay's fault.
He alone knew what was wrong and should have acted.

But shouldn't they have at least cared enough to call her?

[azxd]

You can get an MRI for $400. And it appears that she was already enrolled in MedicAid, so she had government health insurance already, too.

I was hoping you'd mention diabetes, but that's fine. We don't know that she didn't get an MRI. We do know that she got an ultrasound, which is considered more effective than an MRI at detecting them.

I know you're convinced that she died only because people simply hate poor people - but then how do you explain the death of my friend? She had insurance, money wasn't the object. Additionally, she had a condition that meant she was at a higher risk for a DVT than the dead woman you're grieving, yet despite seeking medical attention as instructed, she's just as dead.

Just a few weeks ago, another friend's husband died of pneumonia. He was in the hospital, too.

Here's the deal: sometimes sick people die. There's nothing here to indicate that the woman didn't get a routine standard of medical care. It's sad that her kids are orphans, but my friend's kids lost their Mom too. Real life sucks, but if you think I'm going to advocate giving better medical to mothers than other members of society, well, I guess you can guess how far I'll support that.

As far as I'm concerned, this is just the Dems ramping up the case for a single payer system, which would ironically mean that none of us will ever get an MRI in this instance.

From the article: Ain't that America. If somebody died, it can't just be a tragedy, or God's will....even if everybody did everything exactly right, we absolutely need somebody to blame.Strangely I believe the Obamacare supporting portion of RPF is being exposed by your words.

[azxd]

I think the problem is when, despite her obvious condition, they DRAGGED her into a jail cell and left her on the floor. Should the cops not be responsible for that?Justify why they should be held responsible, if you can.

On a side note:
I guess no one cares about Travon, anymore ... NEW NATIONAL CRISIS ... Woman dies, cops to blame.

[angelatc]

This. As much as it stings, this. ^^^

Really we do need more doctors.


Sure, and the medical community keeps a pretty tight lid on the number that are allowed to practice. But you're making an important point, and that is that doctors and nurses play detective as much as they practice medicine. People lie about themselves - they lie about using drugs, they lie about their sex lives, they make up symptoms to get narcotics and/or a warm bed. ER doctors get to see the worst abuses in the medical system. It's a high pressure, high stress job, and as unfortunate as it it, if they allowed themselves to get devastated every time a patient died, nobody would ever make it out of residency.

Of course we want them to be our friends as well as our doctors, but its pretty unfair to ask them to make that emotional commitment with each and every patient that stumbles into the queue. Nobody could survive that - detaching is a necessary coping mechanism.

[azxd]

She died in September....so it's newsworthy now. Makes sense to me (not).It makes sense if you can't find a better bleeding heart cop hating story to promote, or you want to draw attention toward the idea that Obamacare will save everyone.

[pcosmar]

It makes sense if you can't find a better bleeding heart cop hating story to promote, or you want to draw attention toward the idea that Obamacare will save everyone.

So are you deliberately trying to be an ASS or does it come naturally to you?

This is not about "Obamacare".

[angelatc]

So are you deliberately trying to be an ASS or does it come naturally to you?

This is not about "Obamacare".

You don't think? I absolutely do.

(And I guess you already know my nature. :) )

[azxd]

What's with the sudden disdain for science and private property rights on RPF?The liberal progressive sleeper cell has been awakened, they are becoming bold with the idea that RP can't win, and are thus becoming more vocal of their true beliefs.

[nobody's_hero]

Sure, and the medical community keeps a pretty tight lid on the number that are allowed to practice. But you're making an important point, and that is that doctors and nurses play detective as much as they practice medicine.

See, there's a problem that I could get on board with finding a solution to (which would involve repealing some laws and such).

That'd be a much easier problem to solve than trying to keep people from dying.

Let's remember why we're here.


People lie about themselves - they lie about using drugs, they lie about their sex lives, they make up symptoms to get narcotics and/or a warm bed. ER doctors get to see the worst abuses in the medical system. It's a high pressure, high stress job, and as unfortunate as it it, if they allowed themselves to get devastated every time a patient died, nobody would ever make it out of residency.

Oh man, If people only knew, lol.

We're supposed to educate people on smoking cessation as part of care. We have to document that we did educate people on smoking cessation if they smoke, which is tracked by hospital accredidation agencies. The problem is that some people are afraid to admit to the nurse that they smoke, so we used to put down that the patient denies smoking and then we'd skip the cessation education part. But then we realized that people would later admit to smoking, and the paperwork showed that we didn't educate them on quitting, which raised eyebrows when it came time for the audits. It's detective work, alright.

[PaulConventionWV]

Anytime a patient complains of problems that can't be seen on one of their bullshit tests, doctors claim you have mental problems. My guess is this woman had a history of PHYSICAL problems that were not detected by their machines, so doctors just claimed she was mental. This happens all the time.

Unless a patient is coming into the doctors office just to fuck with him, odds are if the patient is complaining of pain, he has a real physical problem that needs to be addressed. Another issue I have with doctors is that they feel pain is just pain and is not a real physical problem. This is not the case.

True. They act like the pain is what's wrong, when really, the pain is just a symptom of what's wrong. The whole modern medicine scheme is based on treating the symptom and leaving the problem so that it can come back later and, guess what, the patient is back for more "medicine."

[azxd]

Oh, she died because the world is a cold, heartless machine. Got it.

I am just amazed that so many of you here are taking the liberal route with these pathetic appeals to emotion. (She was a Mom! She was homeless! She was poor!) I'm two steps away from being a hermit, and when I venture out into the world I am always amazed at how warm and caring 95% of the people out there actually are. You'll never get me to buy into the fact that people don't care deeply about each other.

I've said it twice before - she got a routine standard of medical care. She died. Sometimes that happens to sick people.I'm not ... The selective use of the guiding principles of Liberty is a very common thing.

[PaulConventionWV]

Oh, she died because the world is a cold, heartless machine. Got it.

I am just amazed that so many of you here are taking the liberal route with these pathetic appeals to emotion. (She was a Mom! She was homeless! She was poor!) I'm two steps away from being a hermit, and when I venture out into the world I am always amazed at how warm and caring 95% of the people out there actually are. You'll never get me to buy into the fact that people don't care deeply about each other.

I've said it twice before - she got a routine standard of medical care. She died. Sometimes that happens to sick people.

No wonder you're pretty much a hermit, because this "warm and caring" world you speak of sure hasn't rubbed off any on you.

[azxd]

The point, according to Donnay, is that she died from both a lack of compassion and an insidious plot within the medical community. Poor thing never stood a chance.Don't forget the cops ... They are also to blame ;)

[nobody's_hero]

The liberal progressive sleeper cell has been awakened, they are becoming bold with the idea that RP can't win, and are thus becoming more vocal of their true beliefs.

I don't think it is that. I think some people just get emotional. Nothing wrong with emotional beliefs, as long as they don't cloud reason. It's sad that she died, but grabbing pitchforks and torches over this is not going to change the fact that she had a DVT that wasn't detected.

[azxd]

But shouldn't they have at least cared enough to call her?Nope ... They should have closed their doors and referred patients to donnay.

[PaulConventionWV]

It makes sense if you can't find a better bleeding heart cop hating story to promote, or you want to draw attention toward the idea that Obamacare will save everyone.

It's amazing how some people in this thread think the same people who believe the police are an unconstitutional standing army are the same that would promote... Obamacare. Yeeeaaahhh...

[pcosmar]

I've said it twice before - she got a routine standard of medical care. She died. Sometimes that happens to sick people.

Everybody dies. No dispute there. Even with the very best care people die.

she was seeking aid and instead was thrown in a jail cell to die.

That is the issue.

[azxd]

So are you deliberately trying to be an ASS or does it come naturally to you?

This is not about "Obamacare".I'm sure in your case it's strictly about the cop bashing ... Carry on !!

[Anti Federalist]

It makes sense if you can't find a better bleeding heart cop hating story to promote, or you want to draw attention toward the idea that Obamacare will save everyone.

Shit, I'm not even a liberal, I'm a full blown commie, haven't you seen specsaregood's sig line yet?

[Anti Federalist]

Everybody dies. No dispute there. Even with the very best care people die.

she was seeking aid and instead was thrown in a jail cell to die.

That is the issue.

Shut up bleeding heart, pinko, commie, liberal, cop hater.

She was supposed to die, and decrease the surplus population.

[pcosmar]

I'm sure in your case it's strictly about the cop bashing ... Carry on !!

And you are busy badge sniffing and boot licking,, carry on.

Yes I do oppose the Police State,, as contrary to Liberty and to the intent of the Founders.

[azxd]

I don't think it is that. I think some people just get emotional. Nothing wrong with emotional beliefs, as long as they don't cloud reason. It's sad that she died, but grabbing pitchforks and torches over this is not going to change the fact that she had a DVT that wasn't detected.And in this you are probably correct, but the OP article called this a national event, and some people are easily suckered by a few words.

Strangely though,
If these are true emotions, it makes me wonder what some people are doing here, when the Obama campaign and it's socialized medical program is in need of support.

[azxd]

It's amazing how some people in this thread think the same people who believe the police are an unconstitutional standing army are the same that would promote... Obamacare. Yeeeaaahhh...Flip Flop principles, perhaps.

[angelatc]

No wonder you're pretty much a hermit, because this "warm and caring" world you speak of sure hasn't rubbed off any on you.

Oh sure it has.In the real world, I do quite a bit of volunteer work, and am generally considered to be one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. Over the years I have indeed taken in homeless people as well as animals, and blah blah blah. If I could figure out a way to get Suzu and her cats up here, I'd happily let her live in my basement (which is actually an apartment, so it's not as bad as it sounds) and help her run her rescue out of my barn even though I've never met her.

I just don't seem to get along with you because you can't hold your own in a discussion of issues and instead resort to insults in an attempt to divert the conversation away from the topic at hand. But I will worry more over Suzu than that.

[pcosmar]

If these are true emotions, it makes me wonder what some people are doing here, when the Obama campaign and it's socialized medical program is in need of support.

Socialized Medicine is and has been a reality,, for some time now.
All Obama/Romneycare do is codify it further.

[Anti Federalist]

And in this you are probably correct, but the OP article called this a national event, and some people are easily suckered by a few words.

Strangely though,
If these are true emotions, it makes me wonder what some people are doing here, when the Obama campaign and it's socialized medical program is in need of support.

Because it has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

And stop hyperventilating.

The OP said it attracted national attention, when media outlets picked it up.


National attention to the story of Anna Brown's death has overwhelmed her family and prompted St. Mary's Health Center officials to defend the actions workers took moments before the homeless woman was arrested for trespassing there.

Who are you voting for in the fall?

[nobody's_hero]

And in this you are probably correct, but the OP article called this a national event, and some people are easily suckered by a few words.

Strangely though,
If these are true emotions, it makes me wonder what some people are doing here, when the Obama campaign and it's socialized medical program is in need of support.

Methinks the media presentation of the story is designed to incite emotional blowback at the expense of weighing the argument in a rational manner. Getting people outraged usually works better for ratings than having two sides sit down at a coffee table and try to calmly discuss what went wrong.

Typical media, you know.

(though the original article wasn't that bad, really, they did try to get the hospital's side of the story)

[angelatc]

Everybody dies. No dispute there. Even with the very best care people die.

she was seeking aid and instead was thrown in a jail cell to die.

That is the issue.

OK - I see now. No, I don't think she should have gone to jail. But I can see how it happened. I had the cops called on me for making a scene in a doctor's office, but I had the sense to leave before they arrived.

I wonder where the hell her mother was? When I was that age, I got sick and my Mom flew to Florida to see what was wrong. This girl had been to three hospitals, but her Mom couldn't be bothered to step up and try to help?

[azxd]

Because it has nothing to do with socialized medicine.

And stop hyperventilating.

The OP said it attracted national attention, when media outlets picked it up.



Who are you voting for in the fall?I'll not be aligning myself with a communist.

[PaulConventionWV]

Flip Flop principles, perhaps.

Oh, uh huh. From dangerous police state and no government violence to... Obamacare. Sure, sounds reasonable.

[Anti Federalist]

OK - I see now. No, I don't think she should have gone to jail. But I can see how it happened. I had the cops called on me for making a scene in a doctor's office, but I had the sense to leave before they arrived.

Which is all I've been saying since page one of this mess.


I wonder where the hell her mother was? When I was that age, I got sick and my Mom flew to Florida when I got sick once. This girl had been to three hospitals, but her Mom couldn't be bothered to step up and try to help?

Who knows?

Not really germane to what the problem, in my mind, is:

For whatever reason nobody could or wanted to help a woman who was dying, and must have had a pretty good idea she was dying, was justifiably raising hell about it and got thrown in jail to die on a piss covered concrete slab.

That some people think that should be SOP is just leaving me flabbergasted, frankly.

[specsaregood]

Oh sure it has.In the real world, I do quite a bit of volunteer work, and am generally considered to be one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. Over the years I have indeed taken in homeless people as well as animals, and blah blah blah. If I could figure out a way to get Suzu and her cats up here, I'd happily let her live in my basement (which is actually an apartment, so it's not as bad as it sounds) and help her run her rescue out of my barn even though I've never met her.


Just for the record, I could see all that right through your online persona. You didn't even have to say it.

[PaulConventionWV]

Oh sure it has.In the real world, I do quite a bit of volunteer work, and am generally considered to be one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet.



That's a laugh.

[angelatc]

I don't think it is that. I think some people just get emotional. Nothing wrong with emotional beliefs, as long as they don't cloud reason. It's sad that she died, but grabbing pitchforks and torches over this is not going to change the fact that she had a DVT that wasn't detected.

That's what frustrates me. This happens. Like I said - it happened to my friend, and they had a much bigger reason to suspect it, but they still couldn't find it. It was a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean anybody was negligent, or filled with malice. But she was just a middle class white girl, so there's no election year drama.

[Anti Federalist]

I'll not be aligning myself with a communist.

OK, so Obama is out.

Who will you be voting for in the fall?

The inventor of Obamacare?

[PaulConventionWV]

OK - I see now. No, I don't think she should have gone to jail. But I can see how it happened. I had the cops called on me for making a scene in a doctor's office, but I had the sense to leave before they arrived.

I wonder where the hell her mother was? When I was that age, I got sick and my Mom flew to Florida when I got sick once. This girl had been to three hospitals, but her Mom couldn't be bothered to step up and try to help?

This "girl" was a mom of three. How old do you think her mother was? How do you know she was alive or even able to move?

[azxd]

Oh, uh huh. From dangerous police state and no government violence to... Obamacare. Sure, sounds reasonable.It does give cause to be concerned about the outcome for RP.

IMO, you can't be selective with principles.

[azxd]

Which is all I've been saying since page one of this mess.



Who knows?

Not really germane to what the problem, in my mind, is:

For whatever reason nobody could or wanted to help a woman who was dying, and must have had a pretty good idea she was dying, was justifiably raising hell about it and got thrown in jail to die on a piss covered concrete slab.

That some people think that should be SOP is just leaving me flabbergasted, frankly.Seems like you just exposed that this really is another of your cop bashing threads.

[angelatc]

For whatever reason nobody could or wanted to help a woman who was dying, and must have had a pretty good idea she was dying, was justifiably raising hell about it and got thrown in jail to die on a piss covered concrete slab.

That some people think that should be SOP is just leaving me flabbergasted, frankly.

I hate that you're making me defend the cops, because I hate them too. But seriously - a homeless woman laying on the floor screaming all night is probably just Friday in that world.

[specsaregood]

This "girl" was a mom of three. How old do you think her mother was? How do you know she was alive or even able to move?

You should really try reading the article in the OP before debating its contents.

[nobody's_hero]

OK - I see now. No, I don't think she should have gone to jail. But I can see how it happened. I had the cops called on me for making a scene in a doctor's office, but I had the sense to leave before they arrived.

I wonder where the hell her mother was? When I was that age, I got sick and my Mom flew to Florida when I got sick once. This girl had been to three hospitals, but her Mom couldn't be bothered to step up and try to help?

One thing I've witnessed though, is that most healthcare providers don't know how to handle excited (for lack of a better word?) patients. I always prefer speaking with patients, and if I can "talk someone down" rather than call security (or the cops), I'm all for that. (but then I'm a 220 lb guy so maybe they just don't feel like they could take me on as much as they could the 125lb female nurse?) People tend to do things when they're scared that they wouldn't normally do, but force shouldn't be used unless they've demonstrated physical violence against others (or themselves, if you are dealing with psychiatric patients who have entrusted their care to you). I don't like to see physical restraints on patients being used for frivolous reasons (even though they're supposed to have a good reason, doctors will occasionally rubber-stamp an M.D. order for restraints to be used just based on one nurse's interaction with the patient - - someone else might walk in to the patient's room and the patient will be cooperative and calm as can be; weird things happen like that in hospitals).

Even the most sane people will do strange things when they're scared, but sometimes it's hard to determine whether they're doing them because they're scared, or because they're just plumb crazy all along.

Anyway, sorry about that rant. It's probably more of a personal judgment call.

[azxd]

OK, so Obama is out.

Who will you be voting for in the fall?

The inventor of Obamacare?I was referring to you, but you know that ;)

[Anti Federalist]

I'm sure in your case it's strictly about the cop bashing ... Carry on !!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0c4viVPJJ1qccfn1o1_500.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

I was referring to you, but you know that ;)

Oh, OK, so you won't be voting for Ron Paul.

[azxd]

I hate that you're making me defend the cops, because I hate them too. But seriously - a homeless woman laying on the floor screaming all night is probably just Friday in that world.I'm glad you noticed this aspect.

[angelatc]

This "girl" was a mom of three. How old do you think her mother was? How do you know she was alive or even able to move?

Well, if she was 22, her Mom was probably at least 35. Because I actually read more than one article about the case, I know that her mother had custody of her kids, so from that I assumed she was ambulatory.

[Anti Federalist]

Seems like you just exposed that this really is another of your cop bashing threads.

Yes.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0c4viVPJJ1qccfn1o1_500.jpg

[azxd]

Oh, OK, so you won't be voting for Ron Paul.You are not Ron Paul, but you do seem to be an opportunist who loves to bash on cops, and within this thread you claimed the title of communist as your own ... Therefore I will not align with you.

[Anti Federalist]

I hate that you're making me defend the cops, because I hate them too. But seriously - a homeless woman laying on the floor screaming all night is probably just Friday in that world.

I don't dispute that at all.

The whole thing just sucked, when I read it.

[angelatc]

One thing I've witnessed though, is that most healthcare providers don't know how to handle excited (for lack of a better word?) patients. I always prefer speaking with patients, and if I can "talk someone down" rather than call security (or the cops), I'm all for that. ...
Even the most sane people will do strange things when they're scared, but sometimes it's hard to determine whether they're doing them because they're scared, or because they're just plumb crazy.

Anyway, sorry about that rant.

It's a gift. That's why it's so important to have a good medical team, and not just rely one one person.

[Anti Federalist]

You are not Ron Paul, but you do seem to be an opportunist who loves to bash on cops, and within this thread you clamied the title of communist as your own ... Therefore I will not aling with you.

So, since I WILL be voting RP in the fall, and you will NOT align with me, an avowed communist and opportunistic cop basher, it must therefore be safe to assume that you will NOT be voting Ron Paul in the fall.

Duly noted, wobbly.

[nobody's_hero]

The saddest part of this story to me is that you're not even going to see outrage at the police department. Or if you do, you'll only see it momentarily as the focus shifts to government intervention in healthcare (in other words, those with agendas will exploit emotion for the sake of growing the nanny state).

The same government that apparently screwed up with the "police protection" side of things, is now going to be expected to manage the hospital's affairs in regard to indigent care.

Even when you win, you lose :(

[angelatc]

The saddest part of this story to me is that you're not even going to see outrage at the police department. Or if you do, you'll only see it momentarily as the focus shifts to government intervention in healthcare.

The same government that apparently screwed up with the "police protection" side of things, is now going to be expected to manage the hospital's affairs in regard to indigent care.

Even when you win, you lose :(

The one thing that struck me as wrong was that the police said they guessed she was on drugs. I am guessing that a tox screen was one of the first things the hospital ran on her, so somebody somewhere knew she wasn't high. Of course, that doesn't mean they could have known she wasn't crazy though.

[Origanalist]

"
A petition in support of health care for all Americans in honor of Brown has gotten more than 20,000 signatures."

It looks to me like the woman's death is being used to promote certain political agendas, go figure..................

Someone dies in a gun accident, let's take your guns. Someone dies from a misstep at a hospital, you need government run health care.




Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1qzpHa46f

[azxd]

Oh, OK, so you won't be voting for Ron Paul.Modus Operandi is exposed again :D

[Brian4Liberty]

That's what frustrates me. This happens. Like I said - it happened to my friend, and they had a much bigger reason to suspect it, but they still couldn't find it. It was a horrible tragedy, but that doesn't mean anybody was negligent, or filled with malice. But she was just a middle class white girl, so there's no election year drama.

Yeah, it happened to an in-law of mine. Many signs of strokes, Doctors could never find anything.

They were finally able to confirm there was a problem after a major stroke. Now please hand them $250,000 for that wonderful insight. Too expensive? Let's have government pay them instead, that will fix our "medical" problem!

[azxd]

So, since I WILL be voting RP in the fall, and you will NOT align with me, an avowed communist and opportunistic cop basher, it must therefore be safe to assume that you will NOT be voting Ron Paul in the fall.

Duly noted, wobbly.Modus Operandi ... It is your weakness that is on display.

[azxd]

"
A petition in support of health care for all Americans in honor of Brown has gotten more than 20,000 signatures."

It looks to me like the woman's death is being used to promote certain political agendas, go figure..................

Someone dies in a gun accident, let's take your guns. Someone dies from a misstep at a hospital, you need government run health care.




Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1qzpHa46fAnd people fall for it and give it greater exposure.

[nobody's_hero]

"
A petition in support of health care for all Americans in honor of Brown has gotten more than 20,000 signatures."

It looks to me like the woman's death is being used to promote certain political agendas, go figure..................

Someone dies in a gun accident, let's take your guns. Someone dies from a misstep at a hospital, you need government run health care.




Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/hospital-defends-care-prior-to-woman-s-death-at-richmond/article_2bf0f06e-a173-582e-99da-e1858875883d.html#ixzz1qzpHa46f

Yep. It's coming. Another shooting in the news today. I'm personally making bets with some neocons I know, that the first politician to introduce new firearm regulations is going to be a republican, or at least, a republican and democrat co-sponsoring the bill as a show of "bipartisanship". You know, just to get the ball rolling.

[azxd]

Yeah, it happened to an in-law of mine. Many signs of strokes, Doctors could never find anything.

They were finally able to confirm there was a problem after a major stroke. Now please hand them $250,000 for that wonderful insight. Too expensive? Let's have government pay them instead, that will fix our "medical" problem!It seems more efficient to have government pay for the prosecuting and defense attorneys, and leave the patients and billing out of this :rolleyes:

[donnay]

Yeah, it happened to an in-law of mine. Many signs of strokes, Doctors could never find anything.

They were finally able to confirm there was a problem after a major stroke. Now please hand them $250,000 for that wonderful insight. Too expensive? Let's have government pay them instead, that will fix our "medical" problem!

Just as our schools are failing since government took over, so is our medical failing since government took over.

[Brian4Liberty]

One thing I've witnessed though, is that most healthcare providers don't know how to handle excited (for lack of a better word?) patients.

After 4 hours in an Emergency Room where there was obviously no Doctor treating anyone (no patients were ever seen), I asked the nurses who were all standing around if there was a Doctor on duty, if not, we would go to another Hospital. Apparently they called in a Doctor that was on-call. That Doctor let me know that there had been an earlier incident of "emergency room rage" and that was why he was called in. Funny how the nurses describe a person telling them that they might leave as "rage". There was no raised voices or anything, just a quick and simple discussion. Apparently anything that interrupted their coffee and BS session was too much to handle.

[phill4paul]

After 4 hours in an Emergency Room where there was obviously no Doctor treating anyone (no patients were ever seen), I asked the nurses who were all standing around if there was a Doctor on duty, if not, we would go to another Hospital. Apparently they called in a Doctor that was on-call. That Doctor let me know that there had been an earlier incident of "emergency room rage" and that was why he was called in. Funny how the nurses describe a person telling them that they might leave as "rage". There was no raised voices or anything, just a quick and simple discussion. Apparently anything that interrupted their coffee and BS session was too much to handle.

Sounds like you got off easy to me. Surprised they didn't call the cops instead of a doctor.

[nobody's_hero]

After 4 hours in an Emergency Room where there was obviously no Doctor treating anyone (no patients were ever seen), I asked the nurses who were all standing around if there was a Doctor on duty, if not, we would go to another Hospital. Apparently they called in a Doctor that was on-call. That Doctor let me know that there had been an earlier incident of "emergency room rage" and that was why he was called in. Funny how the nurses describe a person telling them that they might leave as "rage". There was no raised voices or anything, just a quick and simple discussion. Apparently anything that interrupted their coffee and BS session was too much to handle.

That's what I'm saying. It's as if they don't really know what constitutes an "enraged patient". Sometimes I'll see people in restraints and I'm like, "really? this 90 y/o lady weighs about 80 pounds", lol. Was she gonna push her jello into her lap or something? (edit: I don't mean to make it sound like I see this commonly, but there's plenty of sporadic "WTF" moments in healthcare)

But, here I go, getting caught up in speculation. We don't really know how the lady in this story reacted after being told she should leave. If those details come out, maybe I'll weigh in again.

It's been an interesting thread thus far, with a few tempers flaring every now and then.

[specsaregood]

That's what I'm saying. They don't really know what constitutes an "enraged patient". Sometimes I'll see people in restraints and I'm like, "really? this 90 y/o lady weighs about 80 pounds", lol. Was she gonna push her jello into her lap or something?

break thousands of dollars of equipment? harm themselves?

[Brian4Liberty]

Sounds like you got off easy to me. Surprised they didn't call the cops instead of a doctor.

Of course. Once you walk into a Hospital, you can not leave without their permission (or as the OP story goes, you can not stay once they tell you to leave). Otherwise, they'll call the Police and check you into their "partner" facilities. It's amazing the pedestal of authority that the medical industry is placed on. Power corrupts.

[donnay]

Homeless Mo. Mother Dies in Jail After Hospital 'Clears' Her Arrest
St. Mary's Health Center, Police Department Deny Wrongdoing in Anna Brown's Death

By Christine Thomasos (http://www.christianpost.com/news/homeless-mo-mother-dies-in-jail-after-hospital-clears-her-arrest-72377/) , Christian Post Reporter
March 30, 2012|11:34 am

A 29-year-old Missouri woman died in a jail cell after local hospital staff told police that she was trespassing for complaining about continual pain after receiving a clean bill of health. After community residents spoke about potential racial profiling being at play, the hospital staff recently defended the way they treated the African-American woman, identified as Anna Brown.

On Sept. 21, a homeless Brown refused to leave the St. Mary's Health Center emergency room in Richmond Heights, Mo., after complaining about pain in her legs that kept her from walking. However, the hospital staff called the police, who believed that she might have been on drugs and arrested her for trespassing.

Brown had already been examined before police were called to the scene and doctors said she was healthy enough to be taken to jail. After police reportedly dragged the 29-year-old to jail by her hands and feet, because she could not walk, she died minutes later in her cell.

"They thought she was a drug seeker," an officer said in a Los Angeles Times report.

However, an autopsy report found no drugs in Brown's system. Instead, they found blood clots in her legs and lungs that went untreated by doctors.

According to an investigation by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Brown first visited St. Mary's on Sept. 20 with a swollen ankle. During her seven-hour stay she was given ultrasounds on both legs, which reportedly came back negative for blood clots. The investigation also revealed that the 29-year-old mother of two returned twice more to St. Mary's, and refused to leave on the final visit.

The Associated Press reports that Brown had visited two other hospitals complaining of leg pain before visiting St. Mary's and being arrested.

Brown's sister, Krystle Brown, said the 29-year-old died because of profiling by the police and hospital staff.

"She was not a drug dealer or a hooker or doing other things that she could've ended up dead for," Brown said of her dead sister, according the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. "People assume things because of the way they talk or the way they live or the things they do. My sister is not here today because people passed judgment."

Although the incident took place six months ago, the Post-Dispatch launched an investigative report and its findings sparked outrage in the community. People took to Twitter to express concern about Brown's death.

"RIP to Anna Brown," one person tweeted. "Doesn't help the racial climates rising in the US due to the Trayvon case!"

"Police brutality is getting out of hand," tweeted another.

However, acting Police Chief Maj. Roy Wright blamed St. Mary's Health Center for Brown's death and said his staff did their job.

"A lot of times people don't want to stay in jail and will claim to be sick," Wright told the Post-Dispatch. "We depend on medical officials to tell us they're OK."

Still, the hospital that refused to treat Brown after continued complaints said they did nothing wrong.

Kate Becker, president of St. Mary's Health Center, released a videotaped statement that was posted on the hospital's website Thursday.

"The staff at St. Mary's has heard the outrage being expressed about this tragic event," Becker stated. "We followed established medical guidelines and performed appropriate tests. Unfortunately, even with appropriate testing using sophisticated technology, blood clots can still be undetected in a small number of cases."

Brown's family has reportedly hired an attorney to look into the case.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch revealed that Brown and her two children were made homeless in 2010 when a tornado destroyed their St. Louis home, and again when financial hardship made it difficult for her to keep their next home. Brown's children eventually moved in with her mother, Dorothy Davis. The Post-Dispatch reports Brown lived in homeless shelters from May to September, as the local child welfare agency claimed she was guilty of neglecting her children and was not allowed to live with them.

Davis said her daughter called her children everyday.

"If the police killed my daughter, I want to know. If the hospital is at fault, I want to know. I want to be able to tell her children why their mother isn't here," said Davis.

[Brian4Liberty]

break thousands of dollars of equipment? harm themselves?

Even worse, they may ask questions. :p

[nobody's_hero]

break thousands of dollars of equipment? harm themselves?

Possibly. Possibly not. You have to re-order restraints every 24 hrs according to GA law, so if I can't justify to a doctor why the patient needs restraints, they have to come off. More often than not, I don't get much trouble out of them, and I can't think of a good reason to tell the doctor to leave them on, so they come off.

[specsaregood]

Possibly. Possibly not. You have to re-order restraints every 24 hrs according to GA law, so if I can't justify to a doctor why the patient needs restraints, they have to come off. More often than not, I don't get much trouble out of them, and I can't think of a good reason to tell the doctor to leave them on, so they come off.

right, im just saying I doubt the majority of medical professionals are putting restraints on 90yr olds because its giving them their jollies.

[dannno]

Modus Operandi ... It is your weakness that is on display.

You're the one with the broken sarcasm meter..

Look, the reason why AF is upset is because the medical establishment, our educational institutions and a large majority of the institutions we interact with on a daily basis are not only run like but are also aligned with the brutal police state. And it is growing. The police state is encroaching into nearly every facet and corner of our lives.

What we mean by things being run like the police state is that everything within these institutions is run on chain of command and every decision comes from their internal policies, internal policies that are intimately linked with the police state. Many of the internal policies are based on government regulations, so you can see this goes full circle. By supporting the actions of these institutions and the police state, you are supporting big, brutal, oppressive government that is not anything unlike the communism which you apparently oppose.

AF and others here are not supporting socialism, we are supporting freedom. Freedom to go back to practice medicine the way it used to be practiced where individuals like me and you get care from other individuals like Ron Paul or whoever we choose, not this "care" from oppressive institutions that are so intertwined with the over regulated insurance companies that have become overly large due to their intimate relationships with politicians in DC and don't give a rats ass about anybody.

[azxd]

Of course. Once you walk into a Hospital, you can not leave without their permission (or as the OP story goes, you can not stay once they tell you to leave). Otherwise, they'll call the Police and check you into their "partner" facilities. It's amazing the pedestal of authority that the medical industry is placed on. Power corrupts.With a slight mod your argument will work for any business, and it's a damn lie to say you can't leave a hospital ... They just ask that you sign a release form stating you refuse their treatement, and they do not have the ability to force you to sign anything.

[dannno]

They just ask that you sign a release form stating you refuse their treatement, and they do not have the ability to force you to sign anything.


They don't have the ability to force you to sign anything? So, what happens again if you leave the hospital without signing the paper?

[fisharmor]

I hate that you're making me defend the cops, because I hate them too. But seriously - a homeless woman laying on the floor screaming all night is probably just Friday in that world.

The thing I'm not getting is how you make it sound like this is OK.
If you hate the cops, why is this an excuse? The fact that they throw people screaming on piss-soaked concrete all night every single day is somehow supposed to excuse the fact that they ignored her cries of pain?
How is the idea that she might have been looking for narcotics from the hospitals an excuse? The fact that some people do this is somehow an excuse for a slipshod diagnosis?

Bad shit happens - I really do get that. What I don't get is how that becomes an out for people who are passively responsible for her death.
There's an opportunity in stories like this to explore how it could have been avoided. As long as the attitude of most people is "aw well, fuck it", then that review is never going to happen.

ETA:


The one thing that struck me as wrong was that the police said they guessed she was on drugs. I am guessing that a tox screen was one of the first things the hospital ran on her, so somebody somewhere knew she wasn't high. Of course, that doesn't mean they could have known she wasn't crazy though.

This actually does make it look like you want to review what went wrong, so maybe I misjudged.

[azxd]

You're the one with the broken sarcasm meter..

Look, the reason why AF is upset is because the medical establishment, our educational institutions and a large majority of the institutions we interact with on a daily basis are not only run like but are also aligned with the brutal police state. And it is growing. The police state is encroaching into nearly every facet and corner of our lives.

What we mean by things being run like the police state is that everything within these institutions is run on chain of command and every decision comes from their internal policies, internal policies that are intimately linked with the police state. Many of the internal policies are based on government regulations, so you can see this goes full circle. By supporting the actions of these institutions and the police state, you are supporting big, brutal, oppressive government that is not anything unlike the communism which you apparently oppose.

AF and others here are not supporting socialism, we are supporting freedom. Freedom to go back to practice medicine the way it used to be practiced where individuals like me and you get care from other individuals like Ron Paul or whoever we choose, not this "care" from oppressive institutions that are so intertwined with the over regulated insurance companies that have become overly large due to their intimate relationships with politicians in DC and don't give a rats ass about anybody.And within all this preaching, you still failed to administer the correct diagnosis to the hospital :D

And I don't know what form of socialized medicine you subscribe to, but I choose my own doctors and pay my own bills, and yes I use insurance, because that is the way the current system works ... But I'm waiting for the day that it becomes a full on mandate ... Then I can use the liberal progressive tactics against those who support such things.

Cloward & Pivens ... Crash the entire system upon itself ... Everyone on the government dole is the only way to end this fiasco that has some upset, and screaming for equality.

Nothing is equal after you arrive on this planet ... Just as complaining about BS that does not concern you at the individual level is wasted energy.

[azxd]

They don't have the ability to force you to sign anything? So, what happens again if you leave the hospital without signing the paper?They send you a bill which you can choose to ignore.

[azxd]

The thing I'm not getting is how you make it sound like this is OK.
If you hate the cops, why is this an excuse? The fact that they throw people screaming on piss-soaked concrete all night every single day is somehow supposed to excuse the fact that they ignored her cries of pain?
How is the idea that she might have been looking for narcotics from the hospitals an excuse? The fact that some people do this is somehow an excuse for a slipshod diagnosis?

Bad shit happens - I really do get that. What I don't get is how that becomes an out for people who are passively responsible for her death.
There's an opportunity in stories like this to explore how it could have been avoided. As long as the attitude of most people is "aw well, fuck it", then that review is never going to happen.

ETA:



This actually does make it look like you want to review what went wrong, so maybe I misjudged.Passively responsible ... How many people can you lump into that category of blame ?

[pcosmar]

And I don't know what form of socialized medicine you subscribe to,

NO ONE HERE is supporting socialized medicine.
The fact is,, the medical industry* is already socialized. That is the problem and exactly why this happened.

*This is what is really disturbing..

[azxd]

NO ONE HERE is supporting socialized medicine.
The fact is,, the medical industry is already socialized. That is the problem and exactly why this happened.I'm glad you can so easily identify the problem, yet also saddened that you have no solution.

[azxd]

Bitch Bitch Bitch

It's always someone else's fault.

[pcosmar]

I'm glad you can so easily identify the problem, yet also saddened that you have no solution.

BULLSHIT.

And Ron Paul has spoken of it often. Get the Government out of it.

[azxd]

BULLSHIT.

And Ron Paul has spoken of it often. Get the Government out of it.So one man is going to fix everything ... What about the 535 and all those other idiots holding public office ?

[pcosmar]

So one man is going to fix everything ... What about the 535 and all those other idiots holding public office ?
Can't -rep that one

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to azxd again.

:(

[Anti Federalist]

Could not have said it better myself.

+rep


You're the one with the broken sarcasm meter..

Look, the reason why AF is upset is because the medical establishment, our educational institutions and a large majority of the institutions we interact with on a daily basis are not only run like but are also aligned with the brutal police state. And it is growing. The police state is encroaching into nearly every facet and corner of our lives.

What we mean by things being run like the police state is that everything within these institutions is run on chain of command and every decision comes from their internal policies, internal policies that are intimately linked with the police state. Many of the internal policies are based on government regulations, so you can see this goes full circle. By supporting the actions of these institutions and the police state, you are supporting big, brutal, oppressive government that is not anything unlike the communism which you apparently oppose.

AF and others here are not supporting socialism, we are supporting freedom. Freedom to go back to practice medicine the way it used to be practiced where individuals like me and you get care from other individuals like Ron Paul or whoever we choose, not this "care" from oppressive institutions that are so intertwined with the over regulated insurance companies that have become overly large due to their intimate relationships with politicians in DC and don't give a rats ass about anybody.

[Anti Federalist]

With a slight mod your argument will work for any business, and it's a damn lie to say you can't leave a hospital ... They just ask that you sign a release form stating you refuse their treatement, and they do not have the ability to force you to sign anything.

Oh that's a load of horseshit right there.

We (meaning the immediate AF family) just came through a hospital incident where release was refused, and if pressed, would have resulted in arrest.

[dannno]

And within all this preaching, you still failed to administer the correct diagnosis to the hospital :D

That is irrelevant. In a free market a hospital would tell them there is nothing they can do and ask them to leave. If they didn't have a place to go they would suggest the closest religious or otherwise voluntary non-state funded homeless shelter. If they still wouldn't leave then they would use private security to escort them off of the premises. What they wouldn't do is put a crippled mother in jail.




And I don't know what form of socialized medicine you subscribe to, but I choose my own doctors and pay my own bills, and yes I use insurance, because that is the way the current system works ...

Bull fucking shit you choose your own doctors, you are living in a dream land. Your insurance company chooses them. Your insurance company paid millions of dollars to elect Obama, you actually believe there is ANY semblance to the free market within our health care system?! Free market health care is a lot more than people paying for their own care, it would allow people to pay for WHATEVER care they wanted HOWEVER they wanted rather than the government contrived medical establishment that tells us what treatments we are allowed to have.

I pay for my own insurance and I get a list of like two doctors I can see. I pay for my insurance through my company because it is all tax deductible for me and my company. If I could get tax deductible insurance outside my company or better yet if they decreased the tax rate significantly and ended the tax deductible corporate health care system we have then I would opt for a higher salary and I would get my own catastrophic health insurance plan. Then I would go see doctors who utilize the types of medicines that work best for me (natural medicines). They would get more patients because the government wouldn't prevent them from advertising their medical claims, so the market can test those claims and bring the prices down through competition.

Right now there is zero competition because the FDA and the AMA completely control medicine, and they are run by the same people who funded Obama's campaign. Look it up.

[angelatc]

The thing I'm not getting is how you make it sound like this is OK.
If you hate the cops, why is this an excuse? The fact that they throw people screaming on piss-soaked concrete all night every single day is somehow supposed to excuse the fact that they ignored her cries of pain?


I don't think the cops cops "ignored her cries of pain," as much as they assumed the doctors were correct, and that there wasn't anything actually wrong with her. To them, she was just another crazy street person.




How is the idea that she might have been looking for narcotics from the hospitals an excuse? The fact that some people do this is somehow an excuse for a slipshod diagnosis?

Again, hindsight is 20/20. Three hospitals missed this. Isn't is possible that what the spokesperson said was true - sometimes blood clots simply don't show up no matter how many tests they run?


Bad shit happens - I really do get that. What I don't get is how that becomes an out for people who are passively responsible for her death.
There's an opportunity in stories like this to explore how it could have been avoided. As long as the attitude of most people is "aw well, fuck it", then that review is never going to happen.


But this isn't about that. If you don't believe that medical personnel across the globe aren't constantly looking for ways to improve, then there's not much that can be done. This is about the faux outrage over one particular incident, when the (sad) fact is this happens about 200,000 times a year.

[angelatc]

Bitch Bitch Bitch

It's always someone else's fault.


Well, it obviously has to be somebody's fault. Certainly it's not the fault of the medical community who mistakenly assumed that a woman who lived in the gutter might possibly be exhibiting drug seeking behavior when their battery of tests all indicated there was no medical issue.

They should never have assumed that just because she lived looked and acted like a crazy person that she might actually behaving a brief moment of rationality.

That would be profiling, and we can't have that.

[donnay]

I take the stance that all human life is precious and worth saving. Sometimes good people die by human error, but it seems like the hospital and the police are doing nothing more than pointing fingers at each other to escape any litigation. I only wished I could be called for jury duty on a case like this, because I see both are to blame.

It's clear that both the hospital and the police treated this woman as though she was subhuman. Truly tragic!

[tttppp]

No, you didn't. You still haven't told me what could have happened if they gave her a blood thinner and the diagnosis was incorrect, and you haven't told us why you think an MRI would show clots that the ultrasound didn't....you haven't done anything except Google medical conditions that can cause leg pain.

Come on - you gloated that your diagnostic ability was so amazing you were able to tell what was wrong with this woman just from reading a posthumous newspaper account. Please tell us what the hospital should have done differently - bonus points if you can point out anywhere that they diverted from proper medical protocol.

If the doctors had specialized in Chinese traditional medicine, they would have been able to look at her tongue and identify the problem. In a case of blood clots they would not have given her a blood thinner. Blood clots form when your body does not have enough blood, gets dry and forms clumps. The solution is to create more blood with the help of herbs. Herbologist know how to do this, doctors don't.

The protocol should be changed. Our medical system should be based on chinese traditional medicine where the issue is some form of chronic illness like this one. Western medicine does not fix chronic illnesses.

[Brian4Liberty]

With a slight mod your argument will work for any business, and it's a damn lie to say you can't leave a hospital ... They just ask that you sign a release form stating you refuse their treatement, and they do not have the ability to force you to sign anything.

Exclusive: RFK's Son Arrested in Westchester Hospital Maternity Unit Clash, Police Say (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/douglas-kennedy-arrrested-baby-westchester-RFK-son-140296403.html)

[dannno]

They send you a bill which you can choose to ignore.

A bill for what? Why don't they charge me for the diagnosis first so If I refuse the treatment they offer then I can just leave?

[PaulConventionWV]

It does give cause to be concerned about the outcome for RP.

IMO, you can't be selective with principles.

Who's being selective? What gives cause to be concerned about the outcome for RP?

[Anti Federalist]

Exclusive: RFK's Son Arrested in Westchester Hospital Maternity Unit Clash, Police Say (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/douglas-kennedy-arrrested-baby-westchester-RFK-son-140296403.html)

Communist.

[dannno]

If the doctors had specialized in Chinese traditional medicine, they would have been able to look at her tongue and identify the problem. In a case of blood clots they would not have given her a blood thinner. Blood clots form when your body does not have enough blood, gets dry and forms clumps. The solution is to create more blood with the help of herbs. Herbologist know how to do this, doctors don't.

The protocol should be changed. Our medical system should be based on chinese traditional medicine where the issue is some form of chronic illness like this one. Western medicine does not fix chronic illnesses.

In a free market I'd choose this treatment over the medical establishment's treatment any day.

[SpicyTurkey]

In 10 years you will have no choice but to receive treatment, or else to jail with your sick ass.

[PaulConventionWV]

NO ONE HERE is supporting socialized medicine.
The fact is,, the medical industry* is already socialized. That is the problem and exactly why this happened.

*This is what is really disturbing..

THANK YOU! Finally, someone said it. Although the accusations flew wildly, EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE KNOWS that nobody in this thread is, in all likelihood, supporting Obamacare. You can stop trying to witch-hunt people and shame them into submission by accusing them of supporting state-sponsored care. NOBODY is supporting that, so stop acting like every person who disagrees with you is an Obamacare socialist. The tone in here is absurd.

[PaulConventionWV]

If the doctors had specialized in Chinese traditional medicine, they would have been able to look at her tongue and identify the problem. In a case of blood clots they would not have given her a blood thinner. Blood clots form when your body does not have enough blood, gets dry and forms clumps. The solution is to create more blood with the help of herbs. Herbologist know how to do this, doctors don't.

The protocol should be changed. Our medical system should be based on chinese traditional medicine where the issue is some form of chronic illness like this one. Western medicine does not fix chronic illnesses.

I can't + rep you enough for standing up to the "conventional wisdom" of modern medicine, which is all bullshit. I am very interested in Chinese tradition medicine as well as other forms of "alternative medicine". What bothers me the most is when people say that, if that stuff actually worked, it wouldn't be called "alternative." Those people forget to take into account the fact that only allopathic forms of medicine are funded by the government, and the FDA will only approve those forms of medicine. No others are allowed to compete. Accupuncture, kinesiology, and chiropractic have all overcome this bias to some degree, although it will never be completely overcome as long as we do NOT have a free market in healthcare. That is why "alternative" medicine is alternative. If we had a free market, allopathic medicine would be the "loony fringe" stuff, and many alternative types would be commonplace.

[azxd]

Oh that's a load of horseshit right there.

We (meaning the immediate AF family) just came through a hospital incident where release was refused, and if pressed, would have resulted in arrest.The individual seeking treatement can always refuse said treatment ... That doesn not mean the family can refuse treatment for the one who has been admitted.

[azxd]

That is irrelevant. In a free market a hospital would tell them there is nothing they can do and ask them to leave. If they didn't have a place to go they would suggest the closest religious or otherwise voluntary non-state funded homeless shelter. If they still wouldn't leave then they would use private security to escort them off of the premises. What they wouldn't do is put a crippled mother in jail.




Bull fucking shit you choose your own doctors, you are living in a dream land. Your insurance company chooses them. Your insurance company paid millions of dollars to elect Obama, you actually believe there is ANY semblance to the free market within our health care system?! Free market health care is a lot more than people paying for their own care, it would allow people to pay for WHATEVER care they wanted HOWEVER they wanted rather than the government contrived medical establishment that tells us what treatments we are allowed to have.

I pay for my own insurance and I get a list of like two doctors I can see. I pay for my insurance through my company because it is all tax deductible for me and my company. If I could get tax deductible insurance outside my company or better yet if they decreased the tax rate significantly and ended the tax deductible corporate health care system we have then I would opt for a higher salary and I would get my own catastrophic health insurance plan. Then I would go see doctors who utilize the types of medicines that work best for me (natural medicines). They would get more patients because the government wouldn't prevent them from advertising their medical claims, so the market can test those claims and bring the prices down through competition.

Right now there is zero competition because the FDA and the AMA completely control medicine, and they are run by the same people who funded Obama's campaign. Look it up.Cry me a river, Danno ... You can speak for yourself, yet have no clue what I am capable of.

[azxd]

Well, it obviously has to be somebody's fault. Certainly it's not the fault of the medical community who mistakenly assumed that a woman who lived in the gutter might possibly be exhibiting drug seeking behavior when their battery of tests all indicated there was no medical issue.

They should never have assumed that just because she lived looked and acted like a crazy person that she might actually behaving a brief moment of rationality.

That would be profiling, and we can't have that.Yea, it has to be somebodies fault ... That's why some people are bitching and claiming they know better than the hospital staff ;)

[azxd]

Who's being selective? What gives cause to be concerned about the outcome for RP?A developed conclusion that some of his supporters are as selective in their support as they are in their understanding of the principles he promotes.