The Libertarian Party

[Elfshadow]

So every so often it enters my mind to ask the question, was the Libertarian party created for the purpose of draining the republican party of small government politicians and their supporters leaving the republican party filled with So-Cons and Neo-cons, or was that just the unintended consequence? I really wonder about this sometimes.

[Keith and stuff]

Of course not. You could look into the history of the LP if you wanted to do so... Back in the 1960s and 1970s, what the Republican Party and the Democratic Party stood for changed. Adults that followed politics in the 1960s and 1970s knew more than anyone that both of the major parties are very similar and will do whatever it takes to get votes. Nowadays, the parties are much more distinct, so it is harder to tell.

Learn more about the LP with LP.org or even Wikipedia.
http://www.lp.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_%28United_States%29

[heavenlyboy34]

Rothbard took interest in it as a vehicle to promote libertarianism. The rest, I'm not so sure about.

[nobody's_hero]

The republican party drained itself of small government politicians.

Too many years of being told "OMG you have to vote for the Republican nominee no matter what or the DeMOCratSZ will winnnnnnnnnnn. NOOOOOO! Party Unity USA USA USA USA!!!! [insert howard dean scream]"

Some folks just reached their breaking points and bailed. No conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

[heavenlyboy34]

Of course not. You could look into the history of the LP if you wanted to do so... Back in the 1960s and 1970s, what the Republican Party and the Democratic Party stood for changed. Adults that followed politics in the 1960s and 1970s knew more than anyone that both of the major parties are very similar and will do whatever it takes to get votes. Nowadays, the parties are much more distinct, so it is harder to tell.

Learn more about the LP with LP.org or even Wikipedia.
http://www.lp.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)
In theory and according to the propaganda outlets, yes. In practice, no.

[NoOneButPaul]

We need to get the LP back into the GOP so we can have the majority...

[anaconda]

Does anyone besides me find it interesting and significant that Gary Johnson polled 7% nationally recently? This has mind bending ramifications and nobody is even talking about it.

http://newmexico.watchdog.org/12704/gary-johnson-polls-at-7-in-race-with-obama-and-romney/

[cheapseats]

Does anyone besides me find it interesting and significant that Gary Johnson polled 7% nationally recently? This has mind bending ramifications and nobody is even talking about it.

http://newmexico.watchdog.org/12704/gary-johnson-polls-at-7-in-race-with-obama-and-romney/


I do.

[anaconda]

I do.

Thank you. You've been my reality check for today.

[heavenlyboy34]

Does anyone besides me find it interesting and significant that Gary Johnson polled 7% nationally recently? This has mind bending ramifications and nobody is even talking about it.

http://newmexico.watchdog.org/12704/gary-johnson-polls-at-7-in-race-with-obama-and-romney/
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Interesting.

[Anti Federalist]

In theory and according to the propaganda outlets, yes. In practice, no.

I picked up on that as well.

For all practical purposes there is just one party now.

In matters of real policy implementation, both parties serve the state to increase it's power, wealth and control.

Which explains why the DC metro area is now the richest place in the country.

[Feeding the Abscess]

We need to get the LP back into the GOP so we can have the majority...

Any time that has ever been attempted, the GOP/statist brigade always wins. Always. Every single time, and in totality.

OP:

The Libertarian Party started as a protest party, to expose the joke that is our two party system. Its purpose was lost when members in the party attempted to actually win elections under the LP banner.

[RabbitMan]

Any time that has ever been attempted, the GOP/statist brigade always wins. Always. Every single time, and in totality.

OP:

The Libertarian Party started as a protest party, to expose the joke that is our two party system. Its purpose was lost when members in the party attempted to actually win elections under the LP banner.

So...the solution is to tune out and do nothing at all about our collective ship? Sorry. I refuse.

[Anti Federalist]

Does anyone besides me find it interesting and significant that Gary Johnson polled 7% nationally recently? This has mind bending ramifications and nobody is even talking about it.

http://newmexico.watchdog.org/12704/gary-johnson-polls-at-7-in-race-with-obama-and-romney/

Wow, thanks for posting that.

It does, and it deserves its own thread.

I was going dismiss it at first thinking it was just a New Mexico poll, but, as far as I can see, it is a national one.

[enoch150]

Of course not. You could look into the history of the LP if you wanted to do so... Back in the 1960s and 1970s, what the Republican Party and the Democratic Party stood for changed. Adults that followed politics in the 1960s and 1970s knew more than anyone that both of the major parties are very similar and will do whatever it takes to get votes. Nowadays, the parties are much more distinct, so it is harder to tell.

Learn more about the LP with LP.org or even Wikipedia.
http://www.lp.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_%28United_States%29

Here is something to back you up on that:

There was a study by Dr. Keith Poole, a political science professor at the University of Georgia, which ranked 3,320 politicians who served between 1937 and 2002 from liberal to conservative. The study was done in 2004. I haven't yet looked at the exact criteria used, but here were his results:

#1 William H. Meyer - a one term Congressman from Vermont who founded the socialist Liberty Union Party which Bernie Sanders later joined

#3,320 - Ron Paul

Here is his full ranking: http://voteview.com/is_john_kerry_a_liberal.htm

And then he graphed them. The Republicans and Democrats are definitely closer together in the 70's than in the mid 90's to early 2000's.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2diq89u.gif

[Feeding the Abscess]

So...the solution is to tune out and do nothing at all about our collective ship? Sorry. I refuse.

Right, everything is two dimensional.

[IDefendThePlatform]

We need to get the LP back into the GOP so we can have the majority...

I think we've got a pretty rare opportunity to do that and unite some small, 3rd party factions if we can get them to nominate Ron Paul:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?370022-No-2-quot-Americans-Elect-quot-Yes-2-LP-amp-CP-keeping-their-conventions-Open&p=4327626&viewfull=1#post4327626

[anaconda]

I was going dismiss it at first thinking it was just a New Mexico poll, but, as far as I can see, it is a national one.

PPP I believe.

[anaconda]

Wow, thanks for posting that.

it deserves its own thread.



Be my guest. I almost made it an OP but I kind of figured everyone knew about it and did not find it significant for one reason or another. There's plenty of internet hits on it: http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/03/new-poll-shows-gary-johnson-with-7-in-general-election-matchup/

[Keith and stuff]

Be my guest. I almost made it an OP but I kind of figured everyone knew about it and did not find it significant for one reason or another. There's plenty of internet hits on it: http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/03/new-poll-shows-gary-johnson-with-7-in-general-election-matchup/

Yeah, I heard about it the day it happened and just figured if several people I know posted about it on Facebook that lots of the pro-liberty folks in NH and in other important states knew about it. Of course, 7% for Johnson doesn't mean much. It takes 15% over and over again to get in the national polls. Ron Paul did 17% in one 3 way poll, even to get in the debates if he does it over and over again in the polls. http://freeindependentsun.com/republic/what-the-new-ppp-3-way-race-poll-shows-only-a-ron-paul-led-republican-ticket-can-beat-obama/

[anaconda]

Of course, 7% for Johnson doesn't mean much.

7% should be plenty to take down Romney. And imagine if Ron Paul endorses Gary Johnson for the general. That 7% probably goes to 20%. This would mean quite a lot.

[Keith and stuff]

7% should be plenty to take down Romney. And imagine if Ron Paul endorses Gary Johnson for the general. That 7% probably goes to 20%. This would mean quite a lot.

Not a chance. Ron Paul got 17% in the poll I saw, and these numbers tend to shrink close to the election. Libertarian Party candidates usually get less than 0.5%. Even Ron Paul only got 0.5%. The best ever was 1%. Johnson may double that, and I'm being very generous. Heck, maybe a miracle will happen and Johnson will get 4%. Sure, Johnson doesn't have the Koch money that let the LP get 1%, but he was a governor and that counts for something. I agree that if Johnson gets 4%, it wouldn't be possible for Romney to win.

Don't get me wrong, I'd vote for Johnson over Romney or Obama. I have met Johnson more than once. I even attended one of the debates he was in, as his guest. However, he would likely do much better maybe 3% to 5% as opposed to 0.5% to 4% if he was running independent and not libertarian. Johnson is really sad, he could have run for the GOP nomination in 2016 and got much of Ron Paul's support and lots of attention if Rand Paul didn't run. However, he chose to destroy himself with Republicans by going LP.

[gerryb]

We need to get the LP back into the GOP so we can have the majority...

QFT

[John F Kennedy III]

So every so often it enters my mind to ask the question, was the Libertarian party created for the purpose of draining the republican party of small government politicians and their supporters leaving the republican party filled with So-Cons and Neo-cons, or was that just the unintended consequence? I really wonder about this sometimes.

In my humble opinion, I believe all members of the LP should join the GOP (AND STAY) so that we can take it over. Having several third parties (and the politically awake staying in those parties) is exactly what they want. As long as it remains this way we cannot ever take our country back. We need to break the two party system from inside.

[John F Kennedy III]

Does anyone besides me find it interesting and significant that Gary Johnson polled 7% nationally recently? This has mind bending ramifications and nobody is even talking about it.

http://newmexico.watchdog.org/12704/gary-johnson-polls-at-7-in-race-with-obama-and-romney/

He should drop out and endorse Ron Paul.

[Keith and stuff]

He should drop out and endorse Ron Paul.

He dropped out of the GOP Primary and endorsed Ron Paul. It seems like you are just reporting on the past.

[John F Kennedy III]

He dropped out of the GOP Primary and endorsed Ron Paul. It seems like you are just reporting on the past.

Am I wrong in assuming he has supporters who would turn to Ron if he wasn't in the race?

[Keith and stuff]

Am I wrong in assuming he has supporters who would turn to Ron if he wasn't in the race?

In what race? Johnson dropped out of the GOP race and encouraged all of the people able to vote in the GOP Primary/Caucus in state X to vote for Ron Paul. If there is a Johnson bump (I doubt there is), Paul is already getting it and has been for a while.

[John F Kennedy III]

In what race? Johnson dropped out of the GOP race and encouraged all of the people able to vote in the GOP Primary/Caucus in state X to vote for Ron Paul. If there is a Johnson bump (I doubt there is), Paul is already getting it and has been for a while.

So Johnson isn't running for president?

[anaconda]

Not a chance. Ron Paul got 17% in the poll I saw, and these numbers tend to shrink close to the election. Libertarian Party candidates usually get less than 0.5%. Even Ron Paul only got 0.5%. The best ever was 1%. Johnson may double that, and I'm being very generous. Heck, maybe a miracle will happen and Johnson will get 4%. Sure, Johnson doesn't have the Koch money that let the LP get 1%, but he was a governor and that counts for something. I agree that if Johnson gets 4%, it wouldn't be possible for Romney to win.

Don't get me wrong, I'd vote for Johnson over Romney or Obama. I have met Johnson more than once. I even attended one of the debates he was in, as his guest. However, he would likely do much better maybe 3% to 5% as opposed to 0.5% to 4% if he was running independent and not libertarian. Johnson is really sad, he could have run for the GOP nomination in 2016 and got much of Ron Paul's support and lots of attention if Rand Paul didn't run. However, he chose to destroy himself with Republicans by going LP.

Previous Libertarian nominees that got < 1% in the general election were most certainly NOT polling at 7% nationally in March of those years.

[anaconda]

So Johnson isn't running for president?

He's running for the nomination of the Libertarian Party.

http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

[John F Kennedy III]

He's running for the nomination of the Libertarian Party.

http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

What I'm getting at is there are people who would support Ron Paul if Gary Johnson wasn't running. I understand he isn't running GOP anymore and he endorsed Ron for the GOP nomination. However, if GJ running for president keeps even one person from voting for Dr. Paul it is unacceptable. GJ knows he has no chance, why dilute the liberty support? Only one liberty candidate has a chance this cycle, and that's Ron.

[thequietkid10]

What I'm getting at is there are people who would support Ron Paul if Gary Johnson wasn't running. I understand he isn't running GOP anymore and he endorsed Ron for the GOP nomination. However, if GJ running for president keeps even one person from voting for Dr. Paul it is unacceptable. GJ knows he has no chance, why dilute the liberty support? Only one liberty candidate has a chance this cycle, and that's Ron.

Better to run side by side and keep any more Bob Barr's from winning the Libertarian nomination, and to be ready if Paul doesn't win.

I think the libertarian party is the least of Paul's concerns as far as being President. If he somehow got the nomination I would think that Gary Johnson and the Libertarian party would stand down.

[anaconda]

What I'm getting at is there are people who would support Ron Paul if Gary Johnson wasn't running. I understand he isn't running GOP anymore and he endorsed Ron for the GOP nomination. However, if GJ running for president keeps even one person from voting for Dr. Paul it is unacceptable. GJ knows he has no chance, why dilute the liberty support? Only one liberty candidate has a chance this cycle, and that's Ron.

If Paul fails to get the nomination, why shouldn't Johnson run 3rd Party? Paul might even endorse him.

[tbone717]

If he somehow got the nomination I would think that Gary Johnson and the Libertarian party would stand down.

Don't be so sure of that. They ran a candidate against Amash in 2010, and they were seriously considering running a candidate against Rand. I think the fact that they would have needed 5000 signatures to get someone on the ballot prevented that.

I try to keep tabs on the LP and CP and as far as I know neither party has encouraged their members to support Paul in his bid for the GOP nomination.

[seawolf]

Third Parties are going to be a significant factor this year. You have the Libertarian Party, the AmericansElect.org and the Constitution Party. Together they could poll between 10% and 15% nationally and much more in individual States.

They will be really significant if it is Romney vs Obama. Gary Johnson will do surprisingly well I think getting many Ron Paul Supporters to cast a ballot for him. We will have to see who the AmericansElect Organization nominates. I also think the Constitution Party will be a factor if they can find a strong candidate.

[tbone717]

Third Parties are going to be a significant factor this year. You have the Libertarian Party, the AmericansElect.org and the Constitution Party. Together they could poll between 10% and 15% nationally and much more in individual States.

They will be really significant if it is Romney vs Obama. Gary Johnson will do surprisingly well I think getting many Ron Paul Supporters to cast a ballot for him. We will have to see who the AmericansElect Organization nominates. I also think the Constitution Party will be a factor if they can find a strong candidate.

Bookmark this post: The LP, CP, Green and AE candidates will all get less than 1% of the vote each. They would be lucky if all together they total 2%. This year will be like every other year - they will run candidates who have no name recognition, they will have no money to campaign, they will get zero media coverage and 99% of people won't even know they exist until they see their names on the ballot on election day.

If I am wrong I will admit it, but I don't think I will be.

BTW (and this is not part of my prediction) I think the candidates will be Wrights (L), Goode (C), Stein (G), Roemer (AE) - yawn!

[The Free Hornet]

And then he graphed them. The Republicans and Democrats are definitely closer together in the 70's than in the mid 90's to early 2000's.

Color me "very fucking skeptical". First, with few exceptions, I think "social issues" are a sideshow. Sure I have passionate views about them, but they keep us from talking about the big issues: fiat money, social security, medicare, government regulation, real civil rights.

I am not impressed by clear division on a boatload of who-gives-a-fuck issues. This includes gay marriage, abortion, flag/god waving/proclaiming, don't ask don't tell, birth control, stem cells (fucking microscopic cells - how much smaller can a political issue get??!!), and even medical marijuana.

Each of these is an important issue espcially to the people affected. But the days of debating war, currency, social security, and medicare (it's existence, not the increases) have largely ended.

Even Nixon's expansion of the War on Drugs had a few naysayers (1% opposed, 19% not voting):
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/91-1970/h355

In the 1930s, prohibition was repealed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/US_incarceration_rate_timeline.gif/300px-US_incarceration_rate_timeline.gif

I see these assclowns in Congress as closer than ever and thick as thieves. They are paid off by the central bankers, military-industrial complex, IP thieves, prison industry, and government unions. The most these guys do is tinker around the edges of multi-trillion dollar budgets carved in stone. Almost nobody has the balls to do anything. With few exceptions, they are cut from the same cloth now more than ever. You won't fool me with your jedi mind tricks!

[anaconda]

The LP, CP, Green and AE candidates will all get less than 1% of the vote each. they will run candidates who have no name recognition

I'm not the huge Gary Johnson supporter like many here, but why is it you're not acknowledging Gary Johnson's polling at 7%? No previous LP candidate (as you correctly point out hover in the 1% or less of the general election vote) has polled at 7% nationally in March of election year, or any other month for that matter. This strikes me as completely unique and unprecedented.