Why Did the DHS just Purchase 450 Million Rounds of Ammo??

[Deborah K]

Does this concern anyone else? Hollow point 40 caliber?? Really?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp


ATK Secures .40 Caliber Ammunition Contract with Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE)
--ATK Wins Five-Year, Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity Contract for .40 Caliber Ammunition from DHS, ICE --Additional .40 Caliber Ammunition Contract with 450 Million Round Potential Demonstrates ATK's Leadership in Ammunition Manufacturing

ANOKA, Minn., March 12, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- ATK /quotes/zigman/217145/quotes/nls/atk ATK -0.44% announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.

ATK was the incumbent and won the contract with its HST bullet, which has proven itself in the field. The special hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.

"We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40 caliber duty ammunition for DHS, ICE," said Ron Johnson, President of ATK's Security and Sporting group. "The HST is a proven design that will continue to serve those who keep our borders safe."

ATK will produce the ammunition at the Federal Cartridge Company facility in Anoka, Minn. Deliveries are expected to begin in June.

ATK is an aerospace, defense, and commercial products company with operations in 22 states, Puerto Rico, and internationally. News and information can be found on the Internet at www.atk.com .

Certain information discussed in this press release constitutes forward-looking statements as defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although ATK believes that the expectations reflected in such forward-looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions, it can give no assurance that its expectations will be achieved. Forward-looking information is subject to certain risks, trends, and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those projected. Among those factors are: changes in governmental spending, budgetary policies and product sourcing strategies; the company's competitive environment; the terms and timing of awards and contracts; economic conditions; the supply, availability and costs of raw materials and components; or reliance on a key supplier. ATK undertakes no obligation to update any forward-looking statements. For further information on factors that could impact ATK, and statements contained herein, please refer to ATK's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and its subsequent quarterly report on Form 10-Q and current reports on Form 8-K filed with the SEC.

[sailingaway]

hollow tipped ammo from what is flying across twitter the last few days. I think it was on Drudge. Maybe they got such a deal.....

[Deborah K]

hollow tipped ammo from what is flying across twitter the last few days. I think it was on Drudge. Maybe they got such a deal.....


.40 caliber is for revolvers. That is a defensive weapon, for short range. Something stinks to high Heaven. Why 450 million rounds of ammo for a defense weapon - ESPECIALLY hollow points?

[RonPaulFever]

.40 caliber is for revolvers.

Uh...no. There are plenty of .40 semi-auto pistols.

[phill4paul]

Uh...no. There are plenty of .40 semi-auto pistols.

S&W says that 65% of it's law enforcement contracts are for .40 cal. The Glock 22 .40 cal is the most commonly issued handgun for L.E.

[green73]

Typical government over-expenditure. There are only 300 million Americans.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TukFZV-duO0/TskAdVH8bqI/AAAAAAAAAOU/O0NcpwG-t9o/s1600/nazi_execution.jpg

[69360]

Why exactly is this so shocking? An ammo manufacturer is supplying the government. This has been the case since the country was founded.

[PolicyReader]

As I understand it the contract for ammo is for a block, meaning in essence a 'pre-pay' for up-to that amount with (AFAIK) no specific delivery date.
Of course from the same sources it's also mentioned that this is only one such ammo contract for the DHS lately.

In either case I'm a bit less than dancing in the streets about it

[Lishy]

Maybe the deal was good?

Trust me, if DHS wanted to do something to us, they're already more than ready equipped.

[nobody's_hero]

Q: Why Did the DHS just Purchase 450 Million Rounds of Ammo?

A: To keep civilians from purchasing them. :(

[1000-points-of-fright]

.40 caliber is for revolvers. That is a defensive weapon, for short range. Something stinks to high Heaven. Why 450 million rounds of ammo for a defense weapon - ESPECIALLY hollow points?

Actually the .40 was designed for semi-autos. There are very few revolvers in that caliber. Hollow points are pretty much standard issue for Law Enforcement. More stopping power and you don't want rounds going through your target hitting innocent bystanders.

[coastie]

.40 caliber is for revolvers. That is a defensive weapon, for short range. Something stinks to high Heaven. Why 450 million rounds of ammo for a defense weapon - ESPECIALLY hollow points?

You may be thinking of .45 long colt...

Speaking strictly on the Fed side, I know at least two agencies for a fact use .40, because I'm pretty proficient in the SIG P229R-DAK .40 cal I carried for years in the Coast Guard;)...I.C.E uses those as well.

US Marshalls I believe carry Glocks in .40, that may have changed though. I'm sure the list goes on and on. Nearly 1/2 billion rounds is a BIG order. We didn't get shit to shoot with when I was in, very limited in ammo and I just got out less than 2 years ago. Maybe they're gonna let them all train more now? /s:rolleyes:

[Deborah K]

Uh...no. There are plenty of .40 semi-auto pistols.

Sorry I meant hand guns in general as opposed to long arms.

[69360]

They didn't order half a billion. That's just the cap. Actual delivered will be much less.

This is a non-story and everyday government business.

[Deborah K]

Actually the .40 was designed for semi-autos. There are very few revolvers in that caliber. Hollow points are pretty much standard issue for Law Enforcement. More stopping power and you don't want rounds going through your target hitting innocent bystanders.

Standard issue for Law Enforcement as in local police? What does the DHS need with this ammo?

[Deborah K]

They didn't order half a billion. That's just the cap. Actual delivered will be much less.

This is a non-story and everyday government business.

If this is a non-story then why is it the first of it's kind? When has the DHS ever engaged in this kind of deal with an ammo manufacturer?

[pacelli]

http://www.9abc.net/wp-content/uploads/ta-thumbnails-cache/TAdownload/2011/9/38549-1.jpg

Chinese police have arrested six people and shut 16 websites after rumours were spread that military vehicles were on the streets of Beijing, officials say.

The web posts were picked up last week by media outlets around the world, amid uncertainty caused by the ouster of top political leader Bo Xilai.

The State Internet Information Office (SIIO) said the rumours had a "very bad influence on the public".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17570005

[sunsense]

That's 2,083 rounds for every single DHS employee, including secretaries, accountants, vehicle maintenance techs etc.

[69360]

If this is a non-story then why is it the first of it's kind? When has the DHS ever engaged in this kind of deal with an ammo manufacturer?

Why is it first of kind? The government has contracted for ammunition since the 1700's.

[TheGrinch]

That's 2,083 rounds for every single DHS employee, including secretaries, accountants, vehicle maintenance techs etc.
That's also the maximum over 4 years.

According to your numbers, even if you hit the maximum that'd be 520 rounds per employee over 4 years, with clips holding 10-16. Given training and target practice, this is not at all unreasonable... I agree, non-story, especially when compared to the much more massive MIC expenditures.

[Deborah K]

Why is it first of kind? The government has contracted for ammunition since the 1700's.

The first for the DHS. Why do they need this much of this kind of ammo? Why??? For what purpose???

[69360]

The first for the DHS. Why do they need this much of this kind of ammo? Why??? For what purpose???

It's not that much. The number given is the cap to the contract. They likely won't buy anywhere close to that.

They use it the same way any other government agency does. To arm their agents, target practice, etc.

[Deborah K]

It's not that much. The number given is the cap to the contract. They likely won't buy anywhere close to that.

They use it the same way any other government agency does. To arm their agents, target practice, etc.

Why do they need hollow points?

[KingNothing]

The first for the DHS. Why do they need this much of this kind of ammo? Why??? For what purpose???

The Department of Education is buying arms and ammo. Why the shock that DHS is doing so, too?

[69360]

Why do they need hollow points?

All law enforcement uses hollow points. Less chance of a through and through hitting bystanders.

[KingNothing]

Why do they need hollow points?

Why not? They're safer, and generally considered a better option.

[Deborah K]

The Department of Education is buying arms and ammo. Why the shock that DHS is doing so, too?

The Dept of Education is buying arms and ammo? W.T.F.??? And my right to open carry just got taken away from me.....

[r3volution]

4u

[jolynna]

Maybe they're gonna let them all train more now? /s:rolleyes:
Hollow points are NOT for target practice.

[69360]

You don't use those for target practice.

No reason you can't.

[jolynna]

No reason you can't.

You could if you wanted to. But that ISN'T what they are made for.

The hollow points are made strictly for defensive purposes.

[Carson]

Hollow points are NOT for target practice.

They are better for hopping a tin can.

What you do is you don't aim right at the can but right under it. Hollow points work much better. Well in twenty two caliber anyways.

Nothing quite like a tin can for a target. Make you feel like a kid no matter how old you are.

Maybe the order is a little short?

[ichirix]

Sale at Costco...
Bought in Bulk.

[Danke]

Hollow points are NOT for target practice.
They use the same ammo for training that they are issued for duty. So yes, hollow points are used for practice.

[oyarde]

The Dept of Education is buying arms and ammo? W.T.F.??? And my right to open carry just got taken away from me..... Yes , If I remember they have a SWAT arm...

[azxd]

Did I hear someone scream ... This, as has been said, is normal, and is a cap at 450 million rounds.

If the number of agents someone suggested is correct, the number is actually very low, as it relates to practice.

Talk to any competitive shooter, and you will find that many go through a few thousand rounds per month.

I want this guys range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2O7K8MawTs
The gong at 5:20 is 230 yards away.

So all this really says is that DHS doesn't require much in the line of training, or they'd be trying to order more.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Did I hear someone scream ... This, as has been said, is normal, and is a cap at 450 million rounds.

If the number of agents someone suggested is correct, the number is actually very low, as it relates to practice.

Talk to any competitive shooter, and you will find that many go through a few thousand rounds per month.

I want this guys range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2O7K8MawTs
The gong at 5:20 is 230 yards away.

So all this really says is that DHS doesn't require much in the line of training, or they'd be trying to order more.


DHS is not a competitive shooting club. Nor do we need a bunch of armed DHS agents running around.

[AncientHoney]

It is all Obama's fault.

As you shall sow, so shall you reap.

[azxd]

DHS is not a competitive shooting club. Nor do we need a bunch of armed DHS agents running around.If they're gonna be armed, we are better off if they train ... Far to many people are injured during spray and spray attempts.

[coastie]

They use the same ammo for training that they are issued for duty. So yes, hollow points are used for practice.

Misinformation....

From someone who actually worked for DHS(doesn't matter either way, they're all the same), we used FMJ for practice because they are much cheaper than using the much more expensive hollow points.

While you should practice with what you carry, the economic realities of doing so force most people, including govt agencies, to use FMJ for target practice.

The only times we shot hollow points was when we were getting rid of older stock. That was rare, they were usually shipped off somewhere else to be played with.

[azxd]

Back to the OP ... If I were selling ammo, I’d start a rumour just like this !!!

[Danke]

Misinformation....

From someone who actually worked for DHS(doesn't matter either way, they're all the same), we used FMJ for practice because they are much cheaper than using the much more expensive hollow points.

While you should practice with what you carry, the economic realities of doing so force most people, including govt agencies, to use FMJ for target practice.

The only times we shot hollow points was when we were getting rid of older stock. That was rare, they were usually shipped off somewhere else to be played with.

:rolleyes:

[oyarde]

Misinformation....

From someone who actually worked for DHS(doesn't matter either way, they're all the same), we used FMJ for practice because they are much cheaper than using the much more expensive hollow points.

While you should practice with what you carry, the economic realities of doing so force most people, including govt agencies, to use FMJ for target practice.

The only times we shot hollow points was when we were getting rid of older stock. That was rare, they were usually shipped off somewhere else to be played with.

I actually like the FMJ.

[phill4paul]

:rolleyes:

Care to give your personal experience as an L.E.O.?

[Danke]

Care to give your personal experience as an L.E.O.?

NO.

[Anti Federalist]

Why do they need hollow points?

As others have already noted, hollow point ammo is SOP for defensive handguns.

Anybody who carries a handgun for defense should use and practice with JHP ammo.

[oyarde]

i DO NOT NORMALLY USE HANDGUNS FOR ANYTHING , EXCEPT HOME DEFENSE, BACK UP .Since I do not live in a populated area , I buy only FMJ .

[Anti Federalist]

i DO NOT NORMALLY USE HANDGUNS FOR ANYTHING , EXCEPT HOME DEFENSE, BACK UP .Since I do not live in a populated area , I buy only FMJ .

Risky move.

FMJ has no where near the stopping power of well made JHP defense loads.

[phill4paul]

Risky move.

FMJ has no where near the stopping power of well made JHP defense loads.

And stand a better chance of travelling beyond the intended target.

[Carson]

Post deleted as possibly being to relevant.

[oyarde]

Risky move.

FMJ has no where near the stopping power of well made JHP defense loads. Good point , I always figured if circumstances were that dire , target would be within a few feet and I would be using a whole magazine

[Anti Federalist]

Good point , I always figured if circumstances were that dire , target would be within a few feet and I would be using a whole magazine

There have been more than a few cases where whole magazines have been emptied into somebody, yet they retained enough strength to do some severe harm.

Besides, you can't count on making hits with all those rounds, now you've sent penetrating projectiles downrange to hit god knows what.

If you have to use deadly force, make it as effective as possible to stop an attack as quickly and safely as possible.

Well made expanding JHP rounds do that much better than ball ammo.

[coastie]

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure how posting factual information warranted a :rolleyes: a roll eyes from you, but whatever.

[coastie]

There have been more than a few cases where whole magazines have been emptied into somebody, yet they retained enough strength to do some severe harm.

Besides, you can't count on making hits with all those rounds, now you've sent penetrating projectiles downrange to hit god knows what.

If you have to use deadly force, make it as effective as possible to stop an attack as quickly and safely as possible.

Well made expanding JHP rounds do that much better than ball ammo.

Another possible misconception some might draw from this, hollow points need actual fluid pressure to perform, they still go through wood/drywall,etc just as well and hard as FMJ's.;)

[phill4paul]

I'm not sure how posting factual information warranted a :rolleyes: a roll eyes from you, but whatever.

Shush you. He has secret agent man credentials.

[Anti Federalist]

Another possible misconception some might draw from this, hollow points need actual fluid pressure to perform, they still go through wood/drywall,etc just as well and hard as FMJ's.;)

Yes they will, especially once the hollow tip becomes plugged with wood or drywall or even heavy clothing.

If overpenetration is a serious concern, you live in townhome, condo, apartment, that kind of thing or have very close neighbors, then frangible ammo is the safest bet.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-frangible-ammo

[Jingles]

If I was an ammunition manufacturer I would refuse to sell to the government.

[Danke]

I'm not sure how posting factual information warranted a :rolleyes: a roll eyes from you, but whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about.

[coastie]

Yes they will, especially once the hollow tip becomes plugged with wood or drywall or even heavy clothing.

If overpenetration is a serious concern, you live in townhome, condo, apartment, that kind of thing or have very close neighbors, then frangible ammo is the safest bet.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/9mm-frangible-ammo




Personally, I'll just watch where I'm shooting, it pays to be well aware of where you shouldn't try to hit someone in your home. Someone has to be standing literally in my bedroom door before I can safely shoot, and even then rounds can make there way across the street into my neighbors homes(not likely, but possible).

The other(non) option is sending rounds right into my son's bedroom across the house. :eek:

The good thing is that my Little Warrior Princess, "Chewy" the 8 lb Shiz-Poo, barks when the wind changes direction, I'm a light sleeper and can hit you outside the door well before you line up with the kids' bedrooms.:toady::D

[coastie]

Maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about.

And maybe, just maybe, I imagined it all.:rolleyes:

[phill4paul]

Maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not doubting you, Danke. But maybe, just maybe, different L.E.O. agencies have different policies. Let me ask you this since you seem to have insight. How much of a difference is there from practicing with a HP as opposed to a cheaper round? Significant?

[Danke]

Hollow points are NOT for target practice.



I'm not doubting you, Danke. But maybe, just maybe, different L.E.O. agencies have different policies. Let me ask you this since you seem to have insight. How much of a difference is there from practicing with a HP as opposed to a cheaper round? Significant?

I'm not disputing that, I responded to an earlier comment that they don't practice with hollow points, I know this is false.

[phill4paul]

I'm not disputing that, I responded to an earlier comment that they don't practice with hollow points, I know this is false.

I merely pointed out your ":rolleyes:" when you responded to coasties post that he backed that up. That indeed, for the most point, he trained with cheaper FMJ's. You seem to have a different understanding. I was merely wondering 'from your experience' where you got the idea that practice was done with hollow-points. I think his mindset probably came from range practice. I was wondering if you, or any others, have had a different understanding. Such as what kind of ammo is used during a 'smart-target' practice.

[oyarde]

[QUOTE=Anti Federalist;4328082]There have been more than a few cases where whole magazines have been emptied into somebody, yet they retained enough strength to do some severe harm.

Besides, you can't count on making hits with all those rounds, now you've sent penetrating projectiles downrange to hit god knows what.

If you have to use deadly force, make it as effective as possible to stop an attack as quickly and safely as possible. I do not have to worry about down range , I doubt I could miss at close range , but something to think about , I am just generally partial to long weapons ...

[Danke]

I merely pointed out your ":rolleyes:" when you responded to coasties post that he backed that up. That indeed, for the most point, he trained with cheaper FMJ's. You seem to have a different understanding. I was merely wondering 'from your experience' where you got the idea that practice was done with hollow-points. I think his mindset probably came from range practice. I was wondering if you, or any others, have had a different understanding. Such as what kind of ammo is used during a 'smart-target' practice.

When I see an idiotic post like "Misinformation...." I tend to use the :rolleyes:

And now you are putting words in like they were mine. I said no such things.

[phill4paul]

When I see an idiotic post like "Misinformation...." I tend to use the :rolleyes:

And now you are putting words in like they were mine. I said no such things.

Synopsis...

jolynna posted...


Hollow points are NOT for target practice.

you responded....


They use the same ammo for training that they are issued for duty. So yes, hollow points are used for practice.

Inferring that you had relevant information to the contrary...

coastie replied....


Misinformation....

From someone who actually worked for DHS(doesn't matter either way, they're all the same), we used FMJ for practice because they are much cheaper than using the much more expensive hollow points.

While you should practice with what you carry, the economic realities of doing so force most people, including govt agencies, to use FMJ for target practice.

The only times we shot hollow points was when we were getting rid of older stock. That was rare, they were usually shipped off somewhere else to be played with.

To which you, unenlightening as it was, responded...


:rolleyes:

Now then, from my understanding /rolleyes/ means 'whatever.' As in 'you don't know what your talking about'...

To which I responded....


Care to give your personal experience as an L.E.O.?

and you responded....


NO.

Inferring that you have law enforcement knowledge of weapon practice... You did not deny it. You inferred that you did not wish to divulge your personal L.E.O. experience.

Shall I take you through the WHOLE of the thread or are you re-acquainted now?

I'm not putting in words that aren't yours I'm merely seeking clarity in your evasive posts.

:rolleyes:

[oyarde]

As for the Original post , yes , I find it disconcerting that there even is a Homeland Security outside of the Coast Guard. I just need a map of the ammo storage sites when production , delivery , purchases are complete :)

[Danke]

Synopsis...

jolynna posted...



you responded....



Inferring that you had relevant information to the contrary...

coastie replied....



To which you, unenlightening as it was, responded...



Now then, from my understanding /rolleyes/ means 'whatever.' As in 'you don't know what your talking about'...

To which I responded....



and you responded....



Inferring that you have law enforcement knowledge of weapon practice... You did not deny it. You inferred that you did not wish to divulge your personal L.E.O. experience.

Shall I take you through the WHOLE of the thread or are you re-acquainted now?

I'm not putting in words that aren't yours I'm merely seeking clarity in your evasive posts.

:rolleyes:

Good god. "You seem to have a different understanding."

No, I don't. Again, stop putting words on my mouth. He said I was spreading "misinformation."

I am not.

I won't go in to specifics, because I (may not be) allowed to. capiche?

[azxd]

Good point , I always figured if circumstances were that dire , target would be within a few feet and I would be using a whole magazineStudy a bit and you will realize that even a .45 hole that does not get larger, is not as effective as a 9mm that reliably expands to .75 inches or larger.

Almost every major name brand of defensive ammo will do exactly as described ... Expand to .75 inches or more, and it will expend it's energy into the target and not the wall behind the target, and possibly whoever is behind that wall.

The list of reasons why FMJ is a bad choice for defensive porposes is great, and these are just a few.

From a reliable source, and worthy of investigation.


...there is no "Best". That bears repeating, so let me say it again:

There is no "Best".

Why? Because what works best for me, in my gun, when I shoot it, may not be what works best in your gun when you shoot it...and not all guns/shooters are the same.

That being said, though...not all loads are created equal.

So: I suggest that folks with questions like this read these links:

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.40%20S&W)

Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887)

They list several loads that all have proven themselves to be excellent choices...and also explains the why as to them being excellent choices.

So, choose one of the loads listed (you may find that some are considerably more expensive and/or harder to find than others--but they all will perform more or less the same). Buy a box or two, and take it to the range. Load up your mags, and let fly. Fire at least one entire magazine out of every magazine you plan on using for defense. See if the load runs 100% reliably in your pistol in your hands, and see if you think it has acceptible control when rapid firing. If your pistol likes it, and you like it...why try something else? You've got something that you know works for you, instead of what some anonymous yahoo tells you in an internet forum. If it doesn't work..then start all over again.

I hope this actually helps you, instead of sombody just posting some bullet name that may or may not work in your gun.

[azxd]

Another possible misconception some might draw from this, hollow points need actual fluid pressure to perform, they still go through wood/drywall,etc just as well and hard as FMJ's.;)A generalization that is not always true.

[azxd]

Personally, I'll just watch where I'm shooting, it pays to be well aware of where you shouldn't try to hit someone in your home. Someone has to be standing literally in my bedroom door before I can safely shoot, and even then rounds can make there way across the street into my neighbors homes(not likely, but possible).

The other(non) option is sending rounds right into my son's bedroom across the house. :eek:

The good thing is that my Little Warrior Princess, "Chewy" the 8 lb Shiz-Poo, barks when the wind changes direction, I'm a light sleeper and can hit you outside the door well before you line up with the kids' bedrooms.:toady::DNINJA

[azxd]

I'm not doubting you, Danke. But maybe, just maybe, different L.E.O. agencies have different policies. Let me ask you this since you seem to have insight. How much of a difference is there from practicing with a HP as opposed to a cheaper round? Significant?I'll give you a better answer than he did, hopefully ... Every gun will have an ammo preference.
Finding SD ammo that will feed reliably is the most important thing, and is worth the money expended to determine what works in your particular gun ... We're only talking a hundred dollars or so, versus your life, so spend a few dollars, find out what works well, and stick with it.

Shoot enough to be comfortable with the firearm and be able to clear any malfunction that might occur.
Do this often enough so that the guns use becomes second nature, and you might just survive the day you actually need to use it for it's primary purpose.

Oh,
And your question ... My primary handgun shoots the same weight projectile in FMJ about 3 inches high at 10 yards versus on target with the same weight HP.
If I adjust the sights so the FMJ is on target, the HP is low.

Practice with what you depend on ... Play with what you do not.

Personally,
If given the choice,
I'll take a Federal 62gr Fusion JSP of the AR15 variety :D

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

I'm not disputing that, I responded to an earlier comment that they don't practice with hollow points, I know this is false.

You know it is false sometimes or all the time? It's kind of a dumb measuring contest you guys are getting into.

As I understand it, most LEOs don't practice much in general, regardless of ammo choice. I don't know about the teams that break down peoples' doors in the middle of the night. I'd imagine they practice quite a bit.

[Danke]

You know it is false sometimes or all the time? It's kind of a dumb measuring contest you guys are getting into.


Why don't you go back and read what I posted? I said the Feds do in fact practice with hollow points in response to a member saying they don't.

Then coast guard guy said that was "misinformation."

I know he is wrong in that assertion.

[Pericles]

That's also the maximum over 4 years.

According to your numbers, even if you hit the maximum that'd be 520 rounds per employee over 4 years, with clips holding 10-16. Given training and target practice, this is not at all unreasonable... I agree, non-story, especially when compared to the much more massive MIC expenditures.

The military averages buying 1.2 billion rounds of small arms a year as a basis for comparison.

[azxd]

And the soft estimate for 2009 had us civilians purchasing +14 BILLION rounds of ammo ... Obama was great for sales !!
Gun Owners Buy 14 Million Plus Guns In 2009 – More Than 21 of the Worlds Standing Armies (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/#)

[oyarde]

And the soft estimate for 2009 had us civilians purchasing +14 BILLION rounds of ammo ... Obama was great for sales !!
Gun Owners Buy 14 Million Plus Guns In 2009 – More Than 21 of the Worlds Standing Armies (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/#) Which 21 standing Armies ?

[azxd]

Which 21 standing Armies ?Click the link and read

[oyarde]

Click the link and read Cool , I am off to work , I will print it and read it tommorrow. Am at the farm now and headed to the place in the woods when I get off work.

[pacelli]

Just got home from work and had a thought.... I should buy more .40 arms.

[Sullivan*]

Just got home from work and had a thought.... I should buy more .40 arms.
This.

[Carson]

Quote from a new thread;

The US government has begun buying up millions of rounds of ammunition, in fact to the point that it has driven up prices and availability for we the people here at home. What we are about to see is a coordinated attack on US nationality and our sovereignty.


North American Union will Attempt to Disarm the People of the United States (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?370397-North-American-Union-will-Attempt-to-Disarm-the-People-of-the-United-States)