The mentally ill packing guns.

[palm]

If a person has a mental disease but is able to attend school, communicate well aboveaverage, even for normal people and clearly to boot. Can think understand the law, defend themselves without a gun, and hold a job, apartment and relationships, should they be able to bear arms.


Never mind what mental illness, if they can function perfectly on medicine should they be allowed to carry guns?

[AFPVet]

If a person has a mental disease but is able to attend school, communicate well above average, even for normal people and clearly to boot. Can think understand the law, defend themselves without a gun, and hold a job, apartment and relationships, should they be able to bear arms.


Never mind what mental illness, if they can function perfectly on medicine should they be allowed to carry guns?

Well, these same people are allowed to operate a vehicle which is capable of delivering more kinetic energy that any known firearm.... Of course, you have the definitions of "mental illness" themselves which are controversial. Most mental illnesses are treatable/curable.

[WilliamC]

If a person has a mental disease but is able to attend school, communicate well aboveaverage, even for normal people and clearly to boot. Can think understand the law, defend themselves without a gun, and hold a job, apartment and relationships, should they be able to bear arms.


Never mind what mental illness, if they can function perfectly on medicine should they be allowed to carry guns?

So long as there are local courts and such then I can see a case for someone having their gun rights restricted if they are mentally incompetent.

Otherwise they will be shot and killed when they inappropriately use their weapons in public, and to me that's worse.

That would be natural selection in action, and I'd rather the family of the mentally ill be able to take care of them instead of having to worry about killing them myself if they try to harm me because they are too unintelligent to understand they can't randomly shoot their gun in public or whatnot.

It's the behavior that will do them in, not just the fact they are different.

[eduardo89]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


That.

[Lishy]

Sure. He's not violating anyone's liberties! (But if he does get violent, chances are he'd get a magnum bullet straight though his head!)

[specsaregood]

Who decides if they are mentally ill? and to what degree? Let's say DHS decides all libertarians are mentally ill?

[palm]

That person is me, unfortunately, I don't have much family.

But I dont want a gun, it would be nice but my point is, Im pretty much a half citizen, and I constantly get judged on my mental illness. To the point where my basic rights are taken away. I have never been arrested or detained. I have never attempted suicide.

And I am in college and doing particularly well.


But because of my diagnoses many things are out of my reach, you'd be surprised.

[eduardo89]

Who decides if they are mentally ill? and to what degree? Let's say DHS decides all libertarians are mentally ill?

That's exactly what I was thinking. My opinion is the second amendment is very clear. If you have legal capacity, you have the right to bear arms. Legal capacity is best determined at the most local level possible. There should never be any federal regulations on...well, anything.

[eduardo89]

That person is me, unfortunately, I don't have much family.

But I dont want a gun, it would be nice but my point is, Im pretty much a half citizen, and I constantly get judged on my mental illness. To the point where my basic rights are taken away. I have never been arrested or detained. I have never attempted suicide.

And I am in college and doing particularly well.


But because of my diagnoses many things are out of my reach, you'd be surprised.

I'm sorry to hear that. Do you have the legal right to manage your own affairs? Can you sign a contract?

If you can, I think your right to bear arms should not be violated.

[tod evans]

A more viable question is should the people society pays to carry guns undergo psych. evaluations?

There are far more cop involved shootings than civilian.

[pcgame]

..

[specsaregood]

A more viable question is should the people society pays to carry guns undergo psych. evaluations?
There are far more cop involved shootings than civilian.

by independent perhaps even anonymous psychological reviewers.

[palm]

oh really? other then guns, what else is out of reach?


plenty, go to a mental unit, get diagnosed and try different things.

the very fact that I cant retain my rights and respect under the law is wrong. People don't take you seriously once you reveal you have an illness.


Question: Why cant I join the military?

[pcosmar]

What about Voting?
Or Writing/Speaking?

As I recall,, accusations of "mental illness" have been used been used to lock up political dissidents in the past.

Disagree with TPTB?? you must be crazy.

[WilliamC]

That person is me, unfortunately, I don't have much family.

But I dont want a gun, it would be nice but my point is, Im pretty much a half citizen, and I constantly get judged on my mental illness. To the point where my basic rights are taken away. I have never been arrested or detained. I have never attempted suicide.

And I am in college and doing particularly well.


But because of my diagnoses many things are out of my reach, you'd be surprised.

So long as you don't feel yourself to be suicidal and are living independently I don't see anything wrong with you owning a gun.

The first because I honestly do not want to encourage anyone to harm themselves, and the second because if you are dependent upon someone else and living in their home then you can harm them by having one if they don't know or disapprove.

But when someone says mental illness in the context of firearms, I'm thinking someone with a proven history of violence towards themselves or others or someone so badly retarded they can't be trusted not to shoot themselves or others.

Just like I wouldn't argue that blind people have a right to drive automobiles on public roads.

[specsaregood]

As I recall,, accusations of "mental illness" have been used been used to lock up political dissidents in the past.
Disagree with TPTB?? you must be crazy.

I could make an argument that the desire to own a gun by itself demonstrates some homocidal intent; since the only purpose of a gun is to kill, wanting one indicates that you have a desire to kill.

[eduardo89]

I could make an argument that the desire to own a gun by itself demonstrates some homocidal intent; since the only purpose of a gun is to kill, wanting one indicates that you have a desire to kill.

PROGRESSIVE ALERT!!!

[NewRightLibertarian]

the only 'mentally ill' people who shouldn't be allowed to hold guns are the government, they clearly show signs of sociopathic behavior

[Kluge]

I could make an argument that the desire to own a gun by itself demonstrates some homocidal intent; since the only purpose of a gun is to kill, wanting one indicates that you have a desire to kill.

Naw. Wanting to protect yourself from any number of threats, whether it's a single female vs. a stalker, a hiker vs. a bear, a father who lives in a bad neighborhood, etc. does not mean that you want to kill, only that you'll do it if you have to in order to protect yourself or your family.

Most gun owners/hikers/stalked chicks don't have the desire to actually be attacked just so they can kill.

[pcosmar]

I could make an argument that the desire to own a gun by itself demonstrates some homocidal intent; since the only purpose of a gun is to kill, wanting one indicates that you have a desire to kill.

I have heard that before.

I however, have only killed game animals. I have in the past committed a crime (stupidity) involving a firearm,, and yet harmed no one.
I have both the desire to defend myself, my loved ones, and my home,, but have no desire to harm anyone otherwise.

In short,, I don't buy that shit.

[specsaregood]

Naw. Wanting to protect yourself from any number of threats, whether it's a single female vs. a stalker, a hiker vs. a bear, a father who lives in a bad neighborhood, etc. does not mean that you want to kill, only that you'll do it if you have to in order to protect yourself or your family.
Most gun owners/hikers/stalked chicks don't have the desire to actually be attacked just so they can kill.

so you are saying you fantasize about killing somebody in order to "protect" yourself. interesting, *jots down something on a clipboard*

[specsaregood]

I have heard that before.

I don't doubt it, its an easy example of how forbidding weapons to some ends up forbidding them to all.

[Kluge]

so you are saying you fantasize about killing somebody in order to "protect" yourself. interesting, *jots down something on a clipboard*

*sigh*

I have a headache now.

[specsaregood]

I have a headache now.

Hrm, and when introduced to a stressor you get pains in your head. interesting. *more notes on clipboard*

[WilliamC]

I could make an argument that the desire to own a gun by itself demonstrates some homocidal intent; since the only purpose of a gun is to kill, wanting one indicates that you have a desire to kill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NzFJxX8yoY

[Kluge]

Hrm, and when introduced to a stressor you get pains in your head. interesting. *more notes on clipboard*

Hmm. I usually have to pay for sessions like this. Want to hear about my mother?

[WilliamC]

Hmm. I usually have to pay for sessions like this. Want to hear about my mother?

Not without pictures.

Bad-a-BOOM!

[specsaregood]

Hmm. I usually have to pay for sessions like this. Want to hear about my mother?

so you've seen a mental professional before?

1. history of mental help -- check
2. pains in head from stress -- check
3. fantasies about killing others, with delusions of grandeur -- check

Application for gun -- DENIED!

We would however like to offer you an application to the local police department.

[Kluge]

Not without pictures.

Bad-a-BOOM!

My mom was quite lovely, thankyewverymuch.


so you've seen a mental professional before?

1. history of mental help -- check
2. pains in head from stress -- check
3. fantasies about killing others, with delusions of grandeur -- check

Application for gun -- DENIED!

We would however like to offer you an application to the local police department.

1. Eh, only one session for anxiety, I never went back because this chick wanted me to listen to whale noises. Yeah, I'm still anxious sometimes. Especially when people on the internet pass judgment on me. AAAAAAAHHH.
2. Not stress, consternation.
3. What?! Dammit!

4. I don't like doughnuts though.

[WilliamC]

so you've seen a mental professional before?

1. history of mental help -- check
2. pains in head from stress -- check
3. fantasies about killing others, with delusions of grandeur -- check

Application for gun -- DENIED!

We would however like to offer you an application to the local police department.

http://www.memefrog.com/albums/philosoraptor/philosoraptor-meme-00029.jpg

[WilliamC]

My mom was quite lovely, thankyewverymuch.

And a wonderful person I am sure. Thank you for your humor.


1. Eh, only one session for anxiety, I never went back because this chick wanted me to listen to whale noises.

Was she cute?

Whale noises and cute chick therapists, hummm.....

But I guess that's not covered, more's the pity, otherwise I'd be up for some therapy myself.

[Kluge]

Was she cute?

Whale noises and cute chick therapists, hummm.....

But I guess that's not covered, more's the pity, otherwise I'd be up for some therapy myself.

Naw, she was bony and old and had hippie crap all over the place. Sorry to ruin your fantasy. :p

[Pericles]

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

Sigmund Freud

[AuH20]

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

Sigmund Freud

That is a fabulous quote. Wow!

[AFPVet]

That.

+ Rep

[maskander]

Well, these same people are allowed to operate a vehicle which is capable of delivering more kinetic energy that any known firearm.... Of course, you have the definitions of "mental illness" themselves which are controversial. Most mental illnesses are treatable/curable.This is false. You can't cure addiction, you can't make a person who has been traumatized forget they were traumatized. Mental illness stems from irreversible chemical reactions happening in the brain.

btw, your ignorance of the issue shows, as you put "treatable/curable" together. Do we know a cure for cancer?, can we treat it? If those two questions have different answers then you shouldn't use them together to describe a point of view.

As for the issue, we can't guarantee meds will always work. gun ownership should have nothing to do with being a productive member of society. you should only be allowed to own a gun if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.

[specsaregood]

you should only be allowed to own a gun if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.

Wow, its amazing our country got so populated and lasted hundreds of years with no such requirement. I'll make sure to design such tests just so they are out of your skillset. And I'll have them graded subjectively.

[AFPVet]

This is false. You can't cure addiction, you can't make a person who has been traumatized forget they were traumatized. Mental illness stems from irreversible chemical reactions happening in the brain.

btw, your ignorance of the issue shows, as you put "treatable/curable" together. Do we know a cure for cancer?, can we treat it? If those two questions have different answers then you shouldn't use them together to describe a point of view.

As for the issue, we can't guarantee meds will always work. gun ownership should have nothing to do with being a productive member of society. you should only be allowed to own a gun if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.

So, people who get depressed can never be cured? :rolleyes: People are treated and cured for several types of mental illnesses all of the time; however, very serious types may not be as easily treated.

[maskander]

Wow, its amazing our country got so populated and lasted hundreds of years with no such requirement. I'll make sure to design such tests just so they are out of your skillset. And I'll have them graded subjectively.Why do you assume that I think it should be mandated by the government?

If I was a gun salesperson this would be the ethical thing to do.

[specsaregood]

Why do you assume that I think it should be mandated by the government?

If I was a gun salesperson this would be the ethical thing to do.

Well I never said anything about government. You said "you should only be allowed to own a gun" that would exclude somebody from owning a gun they made themselves as well which would bypass your salesperson followup.

[maskander]

So, people who get depressed can never be cured? :rolleyes: People are treated and cured for several types of mental illnesses all of the time; however, very serious types may not be as easily treated.Straw man, but anyway. We are talking about depressed people owning a gun, and sadly we won't know if they should have owned a gun or not until they kill someone they shoulnd't have with that gun.



Well I never said anything about government. You said "you should only be allowed to own a gun" that would exclude somebody from owning a gun they made themselves as well which would bypass your salesperson followup.Well, quite frankly I'm not worried about someone with homemade weapons, because unless they are forming a militia, aren't really a threat to me. If they don't want to go through the normal routes to get guns then fine, but if they come to fight me, I will have bigger and better guns.

[pcosmar]

you should only be allowed to Speak/Write if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.


you should only be allowed to vote if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.

FIFY

[pcosmar]

, because unless they are forming a militia, aren't really a threat to me.
:confused:
Why do you think "forming a militia" is a threat to you?

perhaps you should actually read the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

[specsaregood]

Well, quite frankly I'm not worried about someone with homemade weapons, because unless they are forming a militia, aren't really a threat to me. If they don't want to go through the normal routes to get guns then fine, but if they come to fight me, I will have bigger and better guns.

I'm sure thats exactly what the US govt thought prior to April 19, 1995.

[maskander]

:confused:
Why do you think "forming a militia" is a threat to you?

perhaps you should actually read the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Because I expect my federal government to protect me from foreign attacks, and I expect my state government to protect me from local attacks, if my state government fails to protect me, then I will invoke my 2nd amendment right. It's that simple.

[eduardo89]

Because I expect my federal government to protect me from foreign attacks, and I expect my state government to protect me from local attacks, if my state government fails to protect me, then I will invoke my 2nd amendment right. It's that simple.

http://www.movietrailerreviews.net/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/StarTrekFacePalm.gif

[WilliamC]

Naw, she was bony and old and had hippie crap all over the place. Sorry to ruin your fantasy. :p

No no no, keep going, keep going.

Fantasy coming on just fine...

http://truthpraiseandhelp.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/iris-apfel-portrait_bruce-weber_.jpg

[pcgame]

..

[bunklocoempire]

Originally Posted by maskander

Because I expect my federal government to protect me from foreign attacks, and I expect my state government to protect me from local attacks, if my state government fails to protect me, then I will invoke my 2nd amendment right. It's that simple.


http://www.movietrailerreviews.net/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/StarTrekFacePalm.gif

FP indeed. Ludicrous. Having a toy like a giant standing army in peacetime has done nothing to protect me and the abuse of that toy has made things worse.


"Transportation bureaucrats, especially anti-gun Secretary Mineta, forget that Congress makes the laws," Paul stated, referring to an earlier assertion by one official that the department would never allow guns in the cockpit. "Fortunately, public support for armed pilots has been overwhelming. Congress and the public must continue to pressure Mr. Mineta until every pilot has his or her full Second amendment rights restored."
"We must allow our professional pilots to carry firearms as a last line of defense against future terrorist hijackings," Paul concluded. "Common sense dictates that the pilots who operate today’s incredibly complex aircraft have the ability to handle simple handguns. The flying public deserves to know pilots can defend the cockpit from terrorists."

It's that simple.
Imagine avoiding two wars with a few hand guns rightfully in the hands of citizens first.
Now imagine no terrorists as a result of no corporatist serving standing army.

Nah, expect government who refuses to even balance a checkbook take the lead. :rolleyes:

Back on topic, no crime = no time.

[John F Kennedy III]

That.

^ And he's not even American!

[pcgame]

..

[aGameOfThrones]

If a person has a mental disease but is able to attend school, communicate well aboveaverage, even for normal people and clearly to boot. Can think understand the law, defend themselves without a gun, and hold a job, apartment and relationships, should they be able to bear arms.


Never mind what mental illness, if they can function perfectly on medicine should they be allowed to carry guns?

I don't think police should have guns. :D

[Philhelm]

you should only be allowed to own a gun if you go through training/physical tests/mental evaluations.

In other words, a living organism should only be able to defend itself using the most relevant and efficient technology available if it goes through training, physical tests, or mental evaluations created by another living organism that assumes superiority in those realms.

[No Free Beer]

IMO, if an individual is diagnosed by a doctor to be mentally ill, I do not think they should have a gun, no.

[Philhelm]

IMO, if an individual is diagnosed by a doctor to be mentally ill, I do not think they should have a gun, no.

Define mentally ill. Also, from where would the doctor get the authority to deny another citizen of a right?

[pcgame]

..

[No Free Beer]

Are some doctors incompetent?

I read that people diagnosed in 3rd world countries have a higher recovery rate. In fact, if you are white, middle class/upper, live in the USA, you are more likely to not recover then someone in a 3rd world country.

who is to say mental illness is permanent? In fact, doctors claim that schizophrenia isn't temporary, yet many in 3rd world countries recover without pharmaceutical drugs.

Sure, just like anything else in society. I am one of the most pro-gun people you are going to meet, even though I don't own one, and I don't want mentally ill people running around with guns.

If someone can make a good case for me to change my mind, I will be glad to do that...

As long as the anarchists don't come here...:D

[specsaregood]

Sure, just like anything else in society. I am one of the most pro-gun people you are going to meet, even though I don't own one, and I don't want mentally ill people running around with guns.

If someone can make a good case for me to change my mind, I will be glad to do that...

I think most of us would agree with your overall position. The problem primarily being who determines if one is mentally ill? What degree of mental illness forbids owning a gun? These are the tough questions and the ones that are prone to abuse if you give them an inch.

[No Free Beer]

I think most of us would agree with your overall position. The problem primarily being who determines if one is mentally ill? What degree of mental illness forbids owning a gun? These are the tough questions and the ones that are prone to abuse if you give them an inch.

And what you just said makes perfect sense. I think about that all the time. With a lot of (proposed) laws, I think to myself, "if we implement that law, we give them the opportunity to abuse it in the future." This is why I think creating a law is such a tricky game...

[pcgame]

..

[WilliamC]

do you think if the mentally ill have gun rights, they'll take over society?

Hey, wait, I thought that already happened?

Otherwise why is the world so f#@ed up?

[No Free Beer]

do you think if the mentally ill have gun rights, they'll take over society?

No, I don't nec think that. But that doesn't mean that there wont be violence.

I read an article in a paper a couple of months ago, where a guy who suffered from a severe mental disorder (Schizophrenia) and had been released from a facility. He eventually got a gun (I don't remember if he bought it legally or not) and eventually killed someone (maybe even a few).

That is what I would be afraid of and I think we would all be pretty stupid to allow this to happen.

[No Free Beer]

Hey, wait, I thought that already happened?

Otherwise why is the world so f#@ed up?

I would diagnose those people as "assholes."

I don't know the medical term...;)

[Kade]

We apparently let the mentally ill operate commuter jetliners as well, I see no reason not to give everyone a gun when they are born.

http://www.liberalswithguns.com/

[eduardo89]

Hey, wait, I thought that already happened?

Otherwise why is the world so f#@ed up?

It's the morally ill that have taken over.

[No Free Beer]

It's the morally ill that have taken over.

Well put.

BTW, I love the Hannity avatar.

[VBRonPaulFan]

You're basically proposing attempting to regulate behavior/lifestyle based on what 'might' happen. If a mentally unstable person commits a crime with a gun they should be charged exactly the same as if a mentally stable person commits that same crime. You're attempting to introduce shades of gray in what should be a black or white problem.

Besides, if someone is so unstable that they could go off and shoot someone at any time, friends/family should try to get them help. Banning guns from them and thinking things will be okay is a bit silly and a good way to think you've dealt with a problem that is still a ticking time bomb. Who's to say that unstable person, not being able to get a gun in your scenario, doesn't run off and go on a stabbing spree, or builds an impromptu explosive device and set it off, etc. You can't deal with a symptom of a disease and think you've cured the disease.

[pcgame]

..

[pcgame]

..

[oyarde]

Who decides if they are mentally ill? and to what degree? Let's say DHS decides all libertarians are mentally ill? Yep

[WilliamC]

It's the morally ill that have taken over.

Good point.

Psychopaths are morally ill, but damned if they can't be charismatic as well.

[eduardo89]

Good point.

Psychopaths are morally ill, but damned if they can't be charismatic as well.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

[Danke]

We apparently let the mentally ill operate commuter jetliners as well, I see no reason not to give everyone a gun when they are born.

http://www.liberalswithguns.com/

Hey, I resemble that remark!

[WilliamC]

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Which reminds me, in addition to a gun it's nice to have a big dog as well.

I've always wanted a wolfhound...

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG

http://www.barfworld.com/html/IPEzine/images/irish_wolfhound.jpg

[chudrockz]

My mom was quite lovely, thankyewverymuch.



1. Eh, only one session for anxiety, I never went back because this chick wanted me to listen to whale noises. Yeah, I'm still anxious sometimes. Especially when people on the internet pass judgment on me. AAAAAAAHHH.
2. Not stress, consternation.
3. What?! Dammit!

4. I don't like doughnuts though.

Who in the hell doesn't like doughnuts?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

I would diagnose those people as "assholes."

I don't know the medical term...;)


Psychopaths or sociopaths. See this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR2OJT1EJUc