Trayvon Martin was Caught with Women's Jewelry and a "Burglary Tool" in Earlier Suspension

[AlexanderY]

Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a schools security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned.

==========

According to the report, on Oct. 21 staffers monitoring a security camera at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School spotted Trayvon and two other students writing “W.T.F.,” an acronym for “What the f---,” on a hallway locker, according to schools police. The security employee, who knew Trayvon, confronted the teen and looked through his bag for the graffiti marker.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described the screwdriver as a burglary tool.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry, which was mostly women’s rings and earrings, belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by Miami-Dade Schools Police.

==========



Source:The Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html)

Read the entire article.

This is just the PR angle folks.

Personally, I think the media went to far in practically canonizing and portraying Trayvon as just an innocent teenager.

I mean they were using an old photo of him from a few years back. Now the kid is almost 18, athletic and 6'3, not to mention that the kid actually does have a dubious record.

He wasn't just suspended a few times, he was suspended multiple times as the article points out.

[Yieu]

And this makes it okay to kill him?

[AlexanderY]

And this makes it okay to kill him?

There is plenty of evidence suggesting Zimmerman may have acted in self-defense (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin).

According to police sources (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,3121664.story), Trayvon initiated the violence, not Zimmerman.

I doubt an overweight dude like Zimmerman would just pick a fight with a 6'3 athletic Black male like Trayvon, just sayin.

[thoughtomator]

The more I learn, the more I think this was two people both looking for a fight, with no good guys. Where's the reporting on the context to why there's a neighborhood watch out there?

[MelissaWV]

Sounds like my suspension relating to the "deadly weapon" found on my person: a paring knife used to section and eat citrus.

[AlexanderY]

The more I learn, the more I think this was two people both looking for a fight, with no good guys. Where's the reporting on the context to why there's a neighborhood watch out there?

Finally, someone here with some sound judgement.

Yeah, we know Zimmerman is an overweight, half-Peruvian, wannabe cop.

However, it does not exactly vindicate Trayvon.

Whether it's marijuana, graffiti, or someone else's jewelry, I think it's fair to say that the kid is not exactly the little angel the mainstream media is portraying him as.


Sounds like my suspension relating to the "deadly weapon" found on my person: a paring knife used to section and eat citrus.

Given the Trayvon's amount of mishaps, I doubt it's solely attributable to police exaggeration. I mean they found him with women's jewelry - it's pretty explicit, not to mention his prior thuggish behavior.

Let's face it, at best, has got a dubious record.

The kid is a thug.

[pcosmar]

There is plenty of evidence suggesting Zimmerman may have acted in self-defense (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin).

According to police sources (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,3121664.story), Trayvon initiated the violence, not Zimmerman.

I doubt an overweight dude like Zimmerman would just pick a fight with a 6'3 athletic Black male like Trayvon, just sayin.

There is also plenty of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman is a racist that hates blacks and was looking for an excuse to blow one away.

I have been trying to stay away from that angle,,

It does explain the initial 911 call of a suspicious person.

[pcosmar]

The more I learn, the more I think this was two people both looking for a fight, with no good guys. Where's the reporting on the context to why there's a neighborhood watch out there?

No they weren't "both looking fora fight"
The kid was walking home with candy from the store. Zimmerman was out on the prowl looking for someone to shoot.

SEE
I can play this stupid shit game too.
:mad:

[QueenB4Liberty]

There is also plenty of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman is a racist that hates blacks and was looking for an excuse to blow one away.

I have been trying to stay away from that angle,,

It does explain the initial 911 call of a suspicious person.

Exactly. And Zimmerman was following Trayvon. It isn't self defense when you FOLLOW someone you're supposed to be "defending" yourself from.

[AlexanderY]

Exactly. And Zimmerman was following Trayvon. It isn't self defense when you FOLLOW someone you're supposed to be "defending" yourself from.

It doesn't mean you have to assault him either.

If Zimmerman wanted to shoot someone he would not have called the cops.

Not to mention, I doubt an overweight man like Zimmerman would want to pick a fight with a fit 6'3 able-bodied 17 year old.

[QueenB4Liberty]

It doesn't mean you have to assault him either.

If Zimmerman wanted to shoot someone he would not have called the cops.

Not to mention, I doubt an overweight man like Zimmerman would want to pick a fight with a fit 6'3 able-bodied 17 year old.

Ok..he shouldn't have been following him. That should be all that needs to be said.

[BlackTerrel]

Exactly. And Zimmerman was following Trayvon. It isn't self defense when you FOLLOW someone you're supposed to be "defending" yourself from.

+1

[moo]

calm down people. it's fair to look at trayvon's background just like it's fair to look at zimmerman's criminal record which proves that zimmerman is physically abusive towards women. let them dig through a dead teenager dirty laundry. most of these leaks are coming straight from headquarters aka the sanford police dept.

*flips through zimmermans stack of 911 calls, arrest & court records*
:rolleyes:

[maskander]

So he's okay to kill now?... Glass houses, or something like that, people are such hypocrites nowadays, you can't tell who is a genuinely good moral person.

[AlexanderY]

Ok..he shouldn't have been following him. That should be all that needs to be said.

Again, the following =/= assault.

Pummeling someone on the ground (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin) = assault

There is a reason the police didn't arrest George Zimmerman.

We just can't blame it on police corruption either, Zimmerman isn't a cop.

Why wouldn't the police arrest Zimmerman?

[Brian4Liberty]

This would really make a good movie script or CSI episode where they portray the characters one way, and the twist at the end is that they are really the opposite of how they were originally portrayed. Oh well, that's Hollywood, and that kind of "clarity" has nothing to do with reality. Reality is never cut and dried like that.

[jmdrake]

It doesn't mean you have to assault him either.

If Zimmerman wanted to shoot someone he would not have called the cops.

Not to mention, I doubt an overweight man like Zimmerman would want to pick a fight with a fit 6'3 able-bodied 17 year old.

Who said Zimmerman wanted to shoot Trayvon? Nobody here at RPF that I've seen. It's clear that Zimmerman was following Trayvon and that Zimmerman accosted Trayvon. It's likely based on the evidence I've seen that Zimmerman initiated unwelcome contact (assault and or battery) against Trayvon, but that Trayvon threw the first actual "punch". This was from the beginning at least worth a grand jury investigation and I'm glad that at least that is happening. As for your OP, it's funny how folks didn't want Zimmerman's past coming out (expunged assault charges against a cop) but people want to try the dead kid.

That said Trayvon was underweight being only 140 lbs. And there are a lot of "overweight" people that can actually fight. If I had to put money on the fight between the two just on body type I would have put it on Zimmerman.

[jmdrake]

Again, the following =/= assault.

Unless you put the person in fear of imminent contact that was either harmful or offensive...like reaching your hand toward them.



Pummeling someone on the ground = assault


Wrong. That's battery.



There is a reason the police didn't arrest George Zimmerman.


But not a good one.



We just can't blame it on police corruption either, Zimmerman isn't a cop.


Could have been an informant. As a self appointed "block captain" he probably had plenty of police contact especially in today's "community policing" world.



Why wouldn't the police arrest Zimmerman?

Incompetence?

[Anti Federalist]

Exactly. And Zimmerman was following Trayvon. It isn't self defense when you FOLLOW someone you're supposed to be "defending" yourself from.

This +rep

That's not her "opinion", that is what the law is.

[Ender]

Trayvon Martin’s Girlfriend Talks About Final Call

On Monday morning ABC News published an interview with a 16-year old girl who is believed to have been on the phone with Trayvon Martin moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said told ABC News, in an interview with lawyers asking the questions because the girl is underage. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

ABC News verified phone records and the girl’s statements are believed to be accurate.

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone,” the girl went on to say.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/...l_moments.html

[moo]

Again, the following =/= assault.

Pummeling someone on the ground (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin) = assault

There is a reason the police didn't arrest George Zimmerman.

We just can't blame it on police corruption either, Zimmerman isn't a cop.

Why wouldn't the police arrest Zimmerman?

40,000 people at 1 rally
2+ million petition signatures
1 statement from the president
$10,000 bounty for his arrest which is set to increase to $100,000

after all that, he has not been arrested and nobody knows where he is?

george zimmerman has more authority than every single american in this nation right now and he is being fiercely protected. the PRESIDENT has stated to the ENTIRE WORLD that this is a SERIOUS case and zimmerman is still free? now they're trying to dehumanize trayvon from the shadows like the cowards they are by portraying him as a criminal who deserved to be killed for no other reason than being a black man.

trayvon martin was lynched.

[Danke]

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,”

The forum experts have already decided he put the hoodie on for warmth. nice try.

[Ender]

The forum experts have already decided he put the hoodie on for warmth. nice try.

Well, supposedly it was raining- but that is what the call says.

[Danke]

Well, supposedly it was raining- but that is what the call says.

Oh, it was a plastic hoodie, not those cotton kind?

[RonPaulMall]

Exactly. And Zimmerman was following Trayvon. It isn't self defense when you FOLLOW someone you're supposed to be "defending" yourself from.

He was not following someone he was "defending" himself from. He was following someone. That is perfectly legal. He then asked that person a question, again perfectly legal. At that point, he says the person attacking him. Then, and only then did Zimmerman defend himself. And again that is perfectly legal. Don't sound off about the law unless you understand it. If what Zimmerman says is true, then no crime occurred here.

[specsaregood]

A screwdriver is a "burglary tool"? Damn, we aren't even allowed screwdrivers nowadays? How about butterknives are those ok? I guess I need to empty out my trunk, wouldn't want to be accused of being a burglar.

[AlexanderY]

A screwdriver is a "burglary tool"? Damn, we aren't even allowed screwdrivers nowadays? How about butterknives are those ok? I guess I need to empty out my trunk, wouldn't want to be accused of being a burglar.

No a screw driver is not a burglary tool.

However, a screw driver in tandem with women's jewelry in a man's backpack at school is rather damning. Don't ya think?

Let's keep it in context.

[squarepusher]

Jay Santos from Citizens Auxillary Police

[moo]

No a screw driver is not a burglary tool.

However, a screw driver in tandem with women's jewelry in a man's backpack at school is rather damning. Don't ya think?

Let's keep it in context.

why are you smearing a dead teenager?

[AlexanderY]

why are you smearing a dead teenager?

Smearing?

or

pointing out obvious facts that the media conveniently did not mention when presenting this story?

[Danke]

No a screw driver is not a burglary tool.

However, a screw driver in tandem with women's jewelry in a man's backpack at school is rather damning. Don't ya think?

Let's keep it in context.

He could just be a transvestite handyman, no?

[KMX]

who cares about this let's get Ron Paul elected president!

[specsaregood]

No a screw driver is not a burglary tool.
However, a screw driver in tandem with women's jewelry in a man's backpack at school is rather damning. Don't ya think?
Let's keep it in context.

No, I don't think. The jewelry is out of place, I don't think the screwdriver is at all.

[coastie]

This +rep

That's not her "opinion", that is what the law is.

That's no matter here to many, apparently.

[pahs1994]

this is all a distraction from more important things. Seeing 1000 threads on this in this forum arguing if this kid should be dead or not or if this guy is even white or not just shows the propaganda machine is far reaching and everyone is buying in. EVEN HERE! as soon as i heard that race-war-monger asshole Al Sharpton was involved in this i knew enough to just move along...

[pcosmar]

There is a reason the police didn't arrest George Zimmerman.

We just can't blame it on police corruption either, Zimmerman isn't a cop.

Why wouldn't the police arrest Zimmerman?

A very good question. And I believe the heart of this whole story.

The media is pushing the story for several reasons, and hence the several discussions here.

Why aren't cops arrested when they kill people?, or abuse their authority? It is common enough that there are several threads a week here about it.
I suspect that Zimmerman was a cop wannabe and buddies with the cops that showed up. He was known and protected as if he were a cop.

The media is focusing on several other points though, and avoiding this "immunity".
Some want to attack the 2nd Amendment, and the Stand your Ground Law. It does not apply in this case,, but that won't stop the attack.
I think Zimmerman did a huge disservice to responsible Gun Owners and gave ammo to the anti gunners.
Others are focusing on the Race of both,, and pushing the divide. They are blowing up racial tensions. It is my personal view that this is both stupid and deliberate.
But it does distract from the real issues.

[jmdrake]

A very good question. And I believe the heart of this whole story.

The media is pushing the story for several reasons, and hence the several discussions here.

Why aren't cops arrested when they kill people?, or abuse their authority? It is common enough that there are several threads a week here about it.
I suspect that Zimmerman was a cop wannabe and buddies with the cops that showed up. He was known and protected as if he were a cop.

The media is focusing on several other points though, and avoiding this "immunity".
Some want to attack the 2nd Amendment, and the Stand your Ground Law. It does not apply in this case,, but that won't stop the attack.
I think Zimmerman did a huge disservice to responsible Gun Owners and gave ammo to the anti gunners.
Others are focusing on the Race of both,, and pushing the divide. They are blowing up racial tensions. It is my personal view that this is both stupid and deliberate.
But it does distract from the real issues.

I regret only having 1 +rep to give you for this post! Yes Zimmerman has done a disservice for gun ownership and a disservice for "stand your ground" laws in Florida and other states. And those doing the "goal line defense" of Zimmerman are doing a disservice as well. If a James Bond style "license to kill" is the result of the Florida stand your ground law then the law should be repealed. But I don't think that's the case. And no, that doesn't mean I want Zimmerman automatically convicted or "lynched" or any of the other rash accusations coming from the Zimmerman defenders. But I do want him to be forced to answer for what he did under oath! He should not get IMMUNITY from prosecution just on a disputed claim! I'm not sure why that's so hard for some people to grasp. Nor do I understand why some are willing to drudge through the dead kid's past, but not Zimmermans. Zimmerman was accused of assaulting a cop. The charges against him were expunged. The same people here who seem to believe that we can trust cops 100% when they say they have no reason to arrest Zimmerman apparently don't trust the cop who said Zimmerman assaulted him. You can't have it both ways.

[TeaPartyHistorian]

We get it. He was a low-life teenage hood rat. Still no excuse for the rent-a-cop who was 10 years his elder and 100lbs heavier than him to follow him and murder him.

[Toureg89]

http://www.orlandoforums.com/forum/crossfire/164257-trayvon-martin-he-really-innocent-symon-just.html

i found this thread to be a breath of fresh air.

i am still reluctant to be pro or anti GZ or TM, but there is some tidbits that could be used to GZ defence:

1) Immediately everyone pulled racial tension out there thinking he was white. Then it turns out he's hispanic of some sort. I wonder if Sharpton and the others actually realize this. Zimmerman in fact had several minority friends who say he is not racist.

2) This area is not nice as i have had 2 choppers over my house in ten days, called 911 myself after some fleeing burglars wrecked in front of my house, and witnessed several chases as they happened within 30 ft of me. The demographics here play a huge role.

3) The neighborhood where it happened is not the Isleworth of Sanford if there is such a thing. It is not predominantly white as most people assume because it was gated. It is less than 50% white. It had a string of burglaries involving young black males. [probable cause]

4) Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch, so lets assume he knows most people who live there. He sees an unfamiliar kid, in a hoodie, walking in the dark. People are calling it prejudice, but in this neighborhood, that may be another potential. Why was GZ a watch guard? Because there was a need for it.

5) Martin began walking down a footpath that borders a pond behind apartments. That is why Zimmerman got out initially to keep track of the kid. In the 911 tape of GZ calling 911 (which by the way indicates he wanted to this legitimately based on the fact that he did call) you hear Zimmerman saying that they need to call him when they get there [cops] because he doesn't want the kid to get away. (People have said he didn't want to give his address because he was shady, he wasn't there to meet the cops...)

6) According to the police report Martin asked aggressively why he was being followed and struck GZ first. Witnesses report the kid was on top of GZ and he had grass and blood on the back side of him, and blood on his face. People heard GZ yelling for help which indicates he didnt want to shoot the kid for a few moments during the scuffle. GZ then pulled his gun and shot him once/twice in the chest. [speculation: did the kid see and reach for said gun? GZ should not have had the gun, but in this area I understand why he had one]

7) People of african american decent are screaming cold blooded murder but he hesitated until the last moment to shoot and called the cops beforehand indicating he wanted to do it correctly.

8) People just want the facts but this is an investigation which could corrupt jurors....

[angelatc]

Ok..he shouldn't have been following him. That should be all that needs to be said.

Exactly. Zimmerman had absolutely no way of knowing anything about Martin's past.

[angelatc]

http://www.orlandoforums.com/forum/crossfire/164257-trayvon-martin-he-really-innocent-symon-just.html
8) People just want the facts but this is an investigation which could corrupt jurors....

Sure but without the media outcry there would not even be a proper investigation.

[angelatc]

. Now the kid is almost 18, Cough cough - he was less than a month into year 17.

[Toureg89]

one has to admit, the moral character of TM aside, there is a legit reason for a voluntary guard to be suspicious of unknown individuals in a neighborhood that is the victim of buglaries.

not saying TM was or wasnt a criminal, did or did not instigate anything. just saying following someone in itself isnt wrong. we need to let the carpet role itself out before we can measure its quality.

[angelatc]

Smearing?

or

pointing out obvious facts that the media conveniently did not mention when presenting this story?

These records are supposed to be sealed - he's a juvenile. The Law Enforcement Person who released them broke the law, too. And his record has nothing to do with what happened.

[angelatc]

one has to admit, the moral character of TM aside, there is a legit reason for a voluntary guard to be suspicious of unknown individuals in a neighborhood that is the victim of buglaries.

not saying TM was or wasnt a criminal, did or did not instigate anything. just saying following someone in itself isnt wrong. we need to let the carpet role itself out before we can measure its quality.

You are clearly saying he is a criminal. Don't be a weasel about it.

[Toureg89]

Sure but without the media outcry there would not even be a proper investigation.
im not concern so much about the media as peoples willingness to jump to the conclusion that one person was completely innocent and the other completely guilty.

it could be that TM was completely innocent, completely guilty, or shared some of the guilt for what went down.

but just because GZ was following TM, doesnt equate to an automatic guilt on his part. there are legit reasons one person could be following another inside a neighborhood, irregardless of what a dispatcher told him to do.

alls i, me, personally am saying is, lets here the case and the grand jury opinion before construction an opinion.

[Toureg89]

You are clearly saying he is a criminal. Don't be a weasel about it.
no, im clearly not saying that.

i said, his moral character aside, as in, i dont know his moral character.

but according to GZ, he others from the Orlando area, TMs outward appearances at a time and location proved satisfactorilly suspicious for a native of sanford to be worried.

saying TM fit GZs definition of PC is not the same as saying hes a criminal. thats for the full circumstances of the case to decide, which, none of us know.

[Pericles]

These records are supposed to be sealed - he's a juvenile. The Law Enforcement Person who released them broke the law, too. And his record has nothing to do with what happened.

Except that one of Martin's school suspensions is for weed. That matters because Zimmerman in is 911 call states that he thinks Martin is on drugs. We have no way to determine how credible that may be without the toxicolagy report, and without that report, knowing that Martin has probably used weed gives more information to evaluate the truthfulness of Zimmerman's statement.

[specsaregood]

1) Immediately everyone pulled racial tension out there thinking he was white. Then it turns out he's hispanic of some sort. I wonder if Sharpton and the others actually realize this. Zimmerman in fact had several minority friends who say he is not racist.

Come now, the dude is as pale as me and I've never had anybody mistake me for anything other than white.



3) The neighborhood where it happened is not the Isleworth of Sanford if there is such a thing. It is not predominantly white as most people assume because it was gated. It is less than 50% white. It had a string of burglaries involving young black males. [probable cause]

Did you really just suggest that just being a young black male is "probable cause"?



4) Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch, so lets assume he knows most people who live there. He sees an unfamiliar kid, in a hoodie, walking in the dark. People are calling it prejudice, but in this neighborhood, that may be another potential. Why was GZ a watch guard? Because there was a need for it.

I've lived in a number of neighborhood watch areas and never once met the people involved in it. That is quite the assumption.



7) People of african american decent are screaming cold blooded murder but he hesitated until the last moment to shoot and called the cops beforehand indicating he wanted to do it correctly.

Huh? The way you wrote that sounds like you think he was on the phone asking them how he should shoot the kid. lol I doubt that is what you meant.

Hell if I know what happened here; it all stinks. But the stench most of all is how it was all brushed under the carpet initially like the killing of an unarmed teenager was no big deal.

[jmdrake]

one has to admit, the moral character of TM aside, there is a legit reason for a voluntary guard to be suspicious of unknown individuals in a neighborhood that is the victim of buglaries.

not saying TM was or wasnt a criminal, did or did not instigate anything. just saying following someone in itself isnt wrong. we need to let the carpet role itself out before we can measure its quality.

This will probably come down to a wrongful death lawsuit. That's where it should come down. Based on that standard it's not even a question of whether what GZ did was "wrong" but whether it negligently led to the death of Trayvon. And GZ, by his own admission, did more than just follow Trayvon. He went up to Trayvon and did something. What? That's what a jury should decide. He claims he just tried to talk to Trayvon. There's evidence to suggest he may have put a hand on Trayvon. Regardless what he did was stupid. Hey, it's commendable to try to "clean up your neighborhood". But that should be done in a way that doesn't needlessly endanger yourself or anyone else. Let's say if instead of playing "volunteer cop" Zimmerman had played "volunteer firefighter" and through his negligence cause the death of some third party? (Maybe the real firefighter who went in to rescue the now hapless Zimmerman). What then?

Police in these situations are trained to call for back up and wait for it. GZ did the right thing in calling 911. But he did the wrong thing in not waiting. We can debate until the cows come home whether it was legal or not. But it was clearly wrong. If the "stand your ground law" protects him anyway then the stand your ground law is flawed and should be amended or appealed. People should think twice before initiating what might be a deadly confrontation even if their motives are as pure as the driven snow.

[Toureg89]

im not a criminal, but i was once pulled over by a cop for driving a flashy car in a bad neighborhood around in circules (greater miami area). i was an orlando native who was visiting family and got lost through the maze of streets trying to get back to a main road.

my moral character aside, i fit a proper PC profile to be suspecting of a car thief.

saying that TM might have fit the profile of a criminal is not the same as saying he was a criminal, its saying thats a possible scenario that MIGHT have played through GZ mind, which we wont know till we hear all the facts of the case in a courtroom.

[jmdrake]

Except that one of Martin's school suspensions is for weed. That matters because Zimmerman in is 911 call states that he thinks Martin is on drugs. We have no way to determine how credible that may be without the toxicolagy report, and without that report, knowing that Martin has probably used weed gives more information to evaluate the truthfulness of Zimmerman's statement.

Have a real criminal investigation and do the toxicology report. And do one on Zimmerman too! And while we're looking at relevant facts, look at the fact that Zimmerman may have assaulted a police officer. That also gives information to evaluate the truthfulness of Zimmerman's statement. (Shows Zimmerman might be prone to violence. Folks keep saying Zimmerman wouldn't pick a fight with a kid 6 inches taller, yet 100 pounds lighter then him. But if Zimmerman would pick a fight with a cop......?) Bottom line, all of these "what ifs" just further prove why it was wrong to grant Zimmerman immunity from prosecution. There needs to be a proper investigation. That's all. The short circuiting of the "just us" system either through prosecutorial discretion or bad legislation is the real culprit.

[cajuncocoa]

George Zimmerman has already been tried and found guilty of a hate crime in the court of public opinion. If, in a court of law by a jury of Trayvon Martin's peers, he is found anything less than guilty of 1st degree murder and given a death sentence, there will be no peace.

[Pericles]

This will probably come down to a wrongful death lawsuit. That's where it should come down. Based on that standard it's not even a question of whether what GZ did was "wrong" but whether it negligently led to the death of Trayvon. And GZ, by his own admission, did more than just follow Trayvon. He went up to Trayvon and did something. What? That's what a jury should decide. He claims he just tried to talk to Trayvon. There's evidence to suggest he may have put a hand on Trayvon. Regardless what he did was stupid. Hey, it's commendable to try to "clean up your neighborhood". But that should be done in a way that doesn't needlessly endanger yourself or anyone else. Let's say if instead of playing "volunteer cop" Zimmerman had played "volunteer firefighter" and through his negligence cause the death of some third party? (Maybe the real firefighter who went in to rescue the now hapless Zimmerman). What then?

Police in these situations are trained to call for back up and wait for it. GZ did the right thing in calling 911. But he did the wrong thing in not waiting. We can debate until the cows come home whether it was legal or not. But it was clearly wrong. If the "stand your ground law" protects him anyway then the stand your ground law is flawed and should be amended or appealed. People should think twice before initiating what might be a deadly confrontation even if their motives are as pure as the driven snow.

That right there - neighborhood watch is just that - watch. The only possible justification for action is to protect life or stop assault. Neither was happening here, until confrontation that escalated.

[angelatc]

A very good question. And I believe the heart of this whole story.
Why wouldn't they arrest Zimmerman? I have an answer for that from a lawyer board, The Volokh Conspiracy, but I can't find it again to link to it. They said something like that Florida Law prohibits the police from arresting a shooter if there's a strong case that the shooting was self-defense. Argh - I wish I could find the exact post.

Another comment over there (http://volokh.com/2012/03/24/lethal-self-defense-the-quantum-of-proof-the-duty-to-retreat-and-the-aggressor-exception/#comment-476758863)I wish I had seen yesterday when engaging our own psycho neighborhood watch zealot:


I am the coordinator for a neighborhood watch grid in Tampa. I cannot speak for how neighborhood watch is managed outside of Tampa. Given that, we are trained by the Tampa Police Department (TPD) prior to going out on watch. The training is pretty much a list of do's and don'ts with a smattering of suggested techniques. We have a law here that protects neighborhood watch personnel on a legitimate patrol and there are requirements for meeting those definitions.Some of the things we must agree to and which are required: We may never carry any weapon of any kind, regardless of permit--not even mace. We may never approach a suspicious person and must stay at least 40 feet distant. Our role is to *watch* and *call* -- never to interfere. We may never get out of the vehicle while on vehicle patrol. We must always patrol with another person who is with you at all times while on patrol. The vehicle and/or your person must be clearly marked as neighborhood watch. We must always follow the instructions of an officer (including the dispatch/operator).

I will refrain from commenting on the question of guilt--that's for a court to decide. However, I have met one person who was as "gung-ho" as the reports make Zimmerman sound, and I can tell you that no one on patrol wanted him near them. He had that "accident waiting to happen" vibe. Someone looking for trouble can usually find it and I don't want to be near them when they do.

So whether or not Zimmerman was exactly like this, I don't know, but just knowing that he violated such a long list of basic neighborhood watch principles/rules/common sense, makes me think he had no business on patrol at all.

And apparently Zimmerman wasn't actually even on Neighborhood Watch - he was running an errand.

[Toureg89]

Come now, the dude is as pale as me and I've never had anybody mistake me for anything other than white.
not really. hes as dark as my dad, and my dad and i (im pale white) get confused for being hispanics once a week. people always come up to use asking if we speak spanish.

Did you really just suggest that just being a young black male is "probable cause"?
no, you misunderstand. by saying the community was more than 50% black, it was pointing out that the race of TM might not have had anything to do with it. if you actuall read the thread, the person i quoted later says its the fact that TM is from Miami, and not a native of that community, is the PC for him being a possible thief in the area, not his race per say. if the thieves were just black males, then to GZ, TM wouldnt matter because most most of the community is made up of blacks. but its the fact that hes not from the community, walking home at dark, that adds to the PC.

I've lived in a number of neighborhood watch areas and never once met the people involved in it. That is quite the assumption.
yes, and the other side is making assumptions as well. and this is the whole point. there are many number of factors that could be the case we dont yet know, so lets let the case tell itself.

Huh? The way you wrote that sounds like you think he was on the phone asking them how he should shoot the kid. lol I doubt that is what you meant.
like i said, i didnt type this

Hell if I know what happened here; it all stinks. But the stench most of all is how it was all brushed under the carpet initially like the killing of an unarmed teenager was no big deal.
the numbers you quoted were typed up by someone else who lives in the area on OF. i just copy and pasted all because i didnt want to do it individually...the points i dont care to defend ill ignore

[angelatc]

Except that one of Martin's school suspensions is for weed. That matters because Zimmerman in is 911 call states that he thinks Martin is on drugs. We have no way to determine how credible that may be without the toxicolagy report, and without that report, knowing that Martin has probably used weed gives more information to evaluate the truthfulness of Zimmerman's statement.

None of that matters. Those records are supposed to be sealed. The Law Enforcement Officer who released them broke the law. And if Zimmerman is afraid of a guy on weed.....I don't know what to say. People on pot aren't dangerous.

[GraniteHills]

We get it. He was a low-life teenage hood rat. Still no excuse for the rent-a-cop who was 10 years his elder and 100lbs heavier than him to follow him and murder him.

Yup. One individual's "preventive" harassment and attack on another individual = a president's "preventive" harassment and attack on a foreign nation.

I'm also amused at the "police say that Zimmerman was attacked" angle, as if the kind of cop-cowboy so prevalent today has left us with any reason to believe or trust his or her word at all.

[coastie]

http://www.orlandoforums.com/forum/crossfire/164257-trayvon-martin-he-really-innocent-symon-just.html

i found this thread to be a breath of fresh air.

i am still reluctant to be pro or anti GZ or TM, but there is some tidbits that could be used to GZ defence:

1) Immediately everyone pulled racial tension out there thinking he was white. Then it turns out he's hispanic of some sort. I wonder if Sharpton and the others actually realize this. Zimmerman in fact had several minority friends who say he is not racist.

2) This area is not nice as i have had 2 choppers over my house in ten days, called 911 myself after some fleeing burglars wrecked in front of my house, and witnessed several chases as they happened within 30 ft of me. The demographics here play a huge role.

3) The neighborhood where it happened is not the Isleworth of Sanford if there is such a thing. It is not predominantly white as most people assume because it was gated. It is less than 50% white. It had a string of burglaries involving young black males. [probable cause]

4) Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch, so lets assume he knows most people who live there. He sees an unfamiliar kid, in a hoodie, walking in the dark. People are calling it prejudice, but in this neighborhood, that may be another potential. Why was GZ a watch guard? Because there was a need for it.

5) Martin began walking down a footpath that borders a pond behind apartments. That is why Zimmerman got out initially to keep track of the kid. In the 911 tape of GZ calling 911 (which by the way indicates he wanted to this legitimately based on the fact that he did call) you hear Zimmerman saying that they need to call him when they get there [cops] because he doesn't want the kid to get away. (People have said he didn't want to give his address because he was shady, he wasn't there to meet the cops...)

6) According to the police report Martin asked aggressively why he was being followed and struck GZ first. Witnesses report the kid was on top of GZ and he had grass and blood on the back side of him, and blood on his face. People heard GZ yelling for help which indicates he didnt want to shoot the kid for a few moments during the scuffle. GZ then pulled his gun and shot him once/twice in the chest. [speculation: did the kid see and reach for said gun? GZ should not have had the gun, but in this area I understand why he had one]

7) People of african american decent are screaming cold blooded murder but he hesitated until the last moment to shoot and called the cops beforehand indicating he wanted to do it correctly.

8) People just want the facts but this is an investigation which could corrupt jurors....

#3 is NOT Probable Cause, and is barely enough for Reasonable Suspicion given that "50% of the gated community is black" in that same very sentence.

The fact you'd even try to link that to Probable Cause is pretty sad, and shows you've not a clue of either of those definitions..

[Toureg89]

#3 is NOT Probable Cause, and is barely enough for Reasonable Suspicion given that "50% of the gated community is black" in that same very sentence.

The fact you'd even try to link that to Probable Cause is pretty sad, and shows you've not a clue of either of those definitions..
not his race per say. if the thieves were just black males, then to GZ, TM wouldnt matter because most most of the community is made up of blacks. but its the fact that hes not from the community, walking home at dark, that adds to the PC.

as i said, the initial response i quoted, i myself did not type someone else did. and if you READ THE THREAD, the same individual eloberates further, the point i DID type above in bold.

as i said earlier. i myself was pulled over once because i fitted the profile of a car thief in an area i was wondering around in. fortnuately, nothing harmful happened to me. purely speculation (once again, we should wait till all the facts come out in the court before making judgements), but TM could have found himself fitting a similar profile, even though he might not have been a criminal (i say might, because, once again, i admit that theres very few nonbiased facts that i know of either GZ or TM)

[coastie]

not his race per say. if the thieves were just black males, then to GZ, TM wouldnt matter because most most of the community is made up of blacks. but its the fact that hes not from the community, walking home at dark, that adds to the PC.

as i said, the initial response i quoted, i myself did not type someone else did. and if you READ THE THREAD, the same individual eloberates further, the point i DID type above in gold.

My apologies then, I admit didn't read the entire thread, they all seem to be the same at this point.

Carry On.

[AuH20]

It was recently revealed Zimmerman was a registered democrat who voted for Obama this past election. I wonder if they're going to still lynch him or mislabel him as being as an evil white man harboring racial ill will. ROFL

[coastie]

It was recently revealed Zimmerman was a registered democrat who voted for Obama this past election. I wonder if they're going to still lynch him or mislabel him as being as evil white man harboring racial ill will. ROFL

Wonder if they'll start pushing the fact he was an Obama supporter....

You'd know they'd of said Ron Paul Supporter about a bazillion times by now if he was.:rolleyes:

[AuH20]

Wonder if they'll start pushing the fact he was an Obama supporter....

You'd know they'd of said Ron Paul Supporter about a bazillion times by now if he was.:rolleyes:

Yup. He'd be damned if he was a ron paul supporter. DOA. I could see the media outcry "George Zimmerman donated 3500 dollars to Neoconfederate Texas Congressman Ron Paul over the past 7 years." LOL

[dannno]

No they weren't "both looking fora fight"
The kid was walking home with candy from the store. Zimmerman was out on the prowl looking for someone to shoot.

SEE
I can play this stupid shit game too.
:mad:

I know you quit the other thread early yesterday, but the evidence points to Trayvon hiding then coming up from behind Zimmerman and saying, "hey, you got a problem?" Zimmerman says, "no" and Trayvon says, "you do now!" and decks him and starts beating his head on the ground. Witnesses have corroborated most of his story.

Again, the pics of Trayvon in the media are total bullshit, from several years ago.. This kid is big, 6'3", in good shape and has a GOLD GRILL in his mouth. He looks nothing like the media portrays him to be. I am kinda surprised you have taken the media's line on this incident. I usually tend to believe the opposite of whatever the media is saying.

[cajuncocoa]

Wonder if they'll start pushing the fact he was an Obama supporter....

You'd know they'd of said Ron Paul Supporter about a bazillion times by now if he was.:rolleyes:OMG, yes.

[AuH20]

I know you quit the other thread early yesterday, but the evidence points to Trayvon hiding then coming up from behind Zimmerman and saying, "hey, you got a problem?" Zimmerman says, "no" and Trayvon says, "you do now!" and decks him and starts beating his head on the ground. Witnesses have corroborated most of his story.

Again, the pics of Trayvon in the media are total bullshit, from several years ago.. This kid is big, 6'3", in good shape and has a GOLD GRILL in his mouth. He looks nothing like the media portrays him to be. I am kinda surprised you have taken the media's line on this incident. I usually tend to believe the opposite of whatever the media is saying.

Exactly. We see this angelic photo of Martin being circulated by AP and then the President goes as far to say that this clean cut boy could have been his son. What a coincidence? Complete media orchestration when you start to delve into the raw details.

[coastie]

I know you quit the other thread early yesterday, but the evidence points to Trayvon hiding then coming up from behind Zimmerman and saying, "hey, you got a problem?" Zimmerman says, "no" and Trayvon says, "you do now!" and decks him and starts beating his head on the ground. Witnesses have corroborated most of his story.

Again, the pics of Trayvon in the media are total bullshit, from several years ago.. This kid is big, 6'3", in good shape and has a GOLD GRILL in his mouth. He looks nothing like the media portrays him to be. I am kinda surprised you have taken the media's line on this incident. I usually tend to believe the opposite of whatever the media is saying.

And black to boot! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG.

What the fuck is your infatuation with this kids grill???

Gold Teeth=criminal? Or is it something more???? I'm going with something more, for the simple fact you've mentioned it a dozen times in the 12 different threads here about it..

[specsaregood]

Exactly. We see this angelic photo of Martin being circulated by AP and then the President goes as far to say that this clean cut boy could have been his son.

Are you suggestig that the 17yr old version of the boy couldn't still be his son?

[coastie]

Exactly. We see this angelic photo of Martin being circulated by AP and then the President goes as far to say that this clean cut boy could have been his son. What a coincidence? Complete media orchestration when you start to delve into the raw details.

Kinda like how you guys are ORCHESTRATING that being 6'3 BLACK and having a gold grill=thug, and therefore by default, deserved what he got.

[AuH20]

Are you suggestig that the 17yr old version of the boy couldn't still be his son?

Let's put it this way. The 17 year old version doesn't nearly tug on the heart strings like the junior high photos. It's like night and day. I thought Zimmerman killed a precocious little kid at first because I orginally got sucked in by the media manipulation. Obama and his administration have mastered the art of exploiting events, as relayed by former chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel. That press conference in the Rose Garden wasn't entirely sincere. It was politically motivated.

[jmdrake]

I know you quit the other thread early yesterday, but the evidence points to Trayvon hiding then coming up from behind Zimmerman and saying, "hey, you got a problem?" Zimmerman says, "no" and Trayvon says, "you do now!" and decks him and starts beating his head on the ground. Witnesses have corroborated most of his story.

Again, the pics of Trayvon in the media are total bullshit, from several years ago.. This kid is big, 6'3", in good shape and has a GOLD GRILL in his mouth. He looks nothing like the media portrays him to be. I am kinda surprised you have taken the media's line on this incident. I usually tend to believe the opposite of whatever the media is saying.

Dannno, how much do you weight? Seriously? In HS I was 6'1" and 168 lbs and underweight. I can't believe you or anyone else is saying something so stupid as calling 140 lbs "big". And as for your imaginary "Trayvon snuck up on Zimmerman and started the conversation" fantasy, that doesn't even match what Zimmerman has said. Lastly gold grills don't mean squat. I know you like magic mushrooms and all, but lay off them okay?

[Toureg89]

Kinda like how you guys are ORCHESTRATING that being 6'3 BLACK and having a gold grill=thug, and therefore by default, deserved what he got.
i think the intent was that people making judgements based on what they know from the media are bound to be flawed, since the reporting of the incident has been flawed, and perhaps necessarily so to get a grand jury to review the incident.

[AuH20]

Kinda like how you guys are ORCHESTRATING that being 6'3 BLACK and having a gold grill=thug, and therefore by default, deserved what he got.

You're spewing nonsense now. Zimmerman should be held accountable for manslaughter if the evidence and prosecution prove it to be so. However, this psych ops media manipulation being pushed that Zimmerman's actions were exclusively racially motivated is bunk. This could have happened with anyone. I know plenty of ill-tempered white punks who could have swung at Zimmerman and then a struggle could have ensued. This story is a human story as opposed to a racial one.

[Butchie]

Personally I can't believe that even this board has become infected with this non-story. I am sorry for his parents, I hope the truth comes out and justice is served if need be, that being said, people are killed everyday and they don't get this kind of attention. Don't we have better things to talk about???

[Toureg89]

the statement i made in the other forum i linked to:

tattoos, use of the n word, and having been involved in a fight/smoked marijuana a violent person does not make. following someone along a street also a guilty person does not make.

there could be an argument made for the innocents of both sides. im going to wait to let this play out in court, before i make a judgement.

[jmdrake]

You're spewing nonsense now. Zimmerman should be held accountable for manslaughter if the evidence and prosecution prove it to be so. However, this psych ops media manipulation being pushed that Zimmerman's actions were exclusively racially motivated is bunk. This could have happened with anyone. I know plenty of ill-tempered white punks who could have swung at Zimmerman and then a struggle could have ensued. This story is a human story as opposed to a racial one.

And I know overweight people of all races who might imagine they could take on some underweight kid and take a swing at him or at least punch him. The whole "Zimmerman wouldn't initiate a fight because the skinny kid was taller than him and had a grill" argument is just goofy. The fact that GZ got out of his car and went approached the kid in the first place and did something (and Dannno's scenario is just BS) shows GZ was unlikely to be too scared to "throw down". And the fact that GZ had some kind of previous physical altercation with the freaking police shows GZ likely had a temper. Now I'd be cool with a manslaughter conviction. Voluntary manslaughter is probably the best charge under the circumstances grill or no grill. Granting GZ immunity from prosecution which so far is what actually happened is not.

[AuH20]

Personally I can't believe that even this board has become infected with this non-story. I am sorry for his parents, I hope the truth comes out and justice is served if need be, that being said, people are killed everyday and they don't get this kind of attention. Don't we have better things to talk about???

They want the peons fighting the peons. I'm focused on the man behind the curtain. Blacks who hate the middle class white man for being one tier above them are gullible fools. They signed a deal with a devil and now they're lashing out. The late, great Malcolm X specifically warned them not to fall prey to the schemes of the white liberal but they wouldn't listen.

[jmdrake]

Are you suggestig that the 17yr old version of the boy couldn't still be his son?


Let's put it this way. The 17 year old version doesn't nearly tug on the heart strings like the junior high photos. It's like night and day. I thought Zimmerman killed a precocious little kid at first because I orginally got sucked in by the media manipulation. Obama and his administration have mastered the art of exploiting events, as relayed by former chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel. That press conference in the Rose Garden wasn't entirely sincere. It was politically motivated.

He could have most definitely been my nephew at 17 grill and all. And my nephew was not and is not a thug. He was at the time a stupid kid trying to be cool and fit in at a high school were even the white kids were wannabe hip hoppers. Now he's an engineering major and doing well. Call it "exploitation" by Obama all you want, but I'm with Obama on this one, as bad as I'd hate to admit it.

[TeaPartyHistorian]

I was 6 foot 140lbs when I was this kid's age and I was beyond weak. I couldn't bench press 100 lbs. Under no circumstances at all could I imagine a grown 240 lbs healthy adult being afraid of or losing a fight to any 17 year old 140 lb kid. That is just laughable.

[seeker4sho]

This blog needs to clean out the trolls. IMHO, it is becoming more and more like the National Inquirer -- it is losing all credibility as a supporter of Ron Paul. Ron Paul supports the Constitution and due process, not mob rule. All of you folks supporting lies and hearsay, and the law of the jungle, may get what you wish for some day soon. Zimmerman and the local police department should be put on trial in a court of law -- Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old kid and it appears the local police tried to cover it up..

[frodus24]

Could this media blitz be a distraction for something going on in Washington?

[AuH20]

This blog needs to clean out the trolls. IMHO, it is becoming more and more like the National Inquirer -- it is losing all credibility as a supporter of Ron Paul. Ron Paul supports the Constitution and due process, not mob rule. All of you folks supporting lies and hearsay, and the law of the jungle, may get what you wish for some day soon. Zimmerman and the local police department should be put on trial in a court of law -- Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old kid and it appears the local police tried to cover it up..

So the police manipulated ALL OF THE WITNESSES? Now I'm not saying that Zimmerman should walk free based on what we know, but I find your assertion to be highly suspect.

[Butchie]

I was 6 foot 140lbs when I was this kid's age and I was beyond weak. I couldn't bench press 100 lbs. Under no circumstances at all could I imagine a grown 240 lbs healthy adult being afraid of or losing a fight to any 17 year old 140 lb kid. That is just laughable.

Come on down to my MMA Gym, I'll show you some 140 pounders who could rock any 240 pound bodybuilder's world. (I'm not taking a side or trying in anyway to say what happened that night just that thinking people can't take on someone bigger than them is flawed)

[RickyJ]

I don't know much at all about this case but I fail to see the reason to care much about it. Some guy shot another guy over something. It happens everyday folks, don't we have an election to win?

[TeaPartyHistorian]

Come on down to my MMA Gym, I'll show you some 140 pounders who could rock any 240 pound bodybuilder's world. (I'm not taking a side or trying in anyway to say what happened that night just that thinking people can't take on someone bigger than them is flawed)

140 lbs at 6'3. The height is key. Of course people can win fights against bigger people. But at 6'3 140lbs the kid is so incredibly skinny there's simply no way he could have the strength to move a 240 lb man. I'm sure someone could be...say 5'9 140 lbs and a very effective fighter.

[specsaregood]

It was politically motivated.

of course it was. at the same time, if some guy executed my child and the police swept it under the rug like it was no big deal; I'd hope for somebody to make a big deal out of it too even if it was only for political reasons. The evidence is gonna be heard by a grand jury now --as it should-- it doesnt sound like that would have happened if not for political motivations.

[jmdrake]

Come on down to my MMA Gym, I'll show you some 140 pounders who could rock any 240 pound bodybuilder's world. (I'm not taking a side or trying in anyway to say what happened that night just that thinking people can't take on someone bigger than them is flawed)

True. But there's no evidence of Trayvon having trained MMA. And that's besides the point anyway. Some have made the argument that Trayvon's height advantage meant that Zimmerman's story must be true because no one 5'7" would try to pick a fight with someone 6'3". I bet if you went to any MMA gym and put a 5'7" 240 lb man up against a 6'1" 140 lb man and both had been training just as hard for the same amount of time, 9 times out of 10 the 5'7" 240 lb fighter would win. That's why MMA is divided by weight classes and not height classes.

[jmdrake]

I don't know much at all about this case but I fail to see the reason to care much about it. Some guy shot another guy over something. It happens everyday folks, don't we have an election to win?

Because the "stand your ground" law has become an issue this is bigger than just one person shooting another.

[Sam I am]

Every these kinds of articles come out about Trayvon, it seems like they're stretching to dig up every piece of dirt they can find on him.

"there was this one time where he was writing on a locker, and this other time, where was found carrying items which might suggest that he had stolen from someone. He also has these tattoos"

[jmdrake]

So the police manipulated ALL OF THE WITNESSES?

You mean like Mary Crutcher who said the cries for help did not sound like a grown man and who said Zimmerman didn't try at all to assist Trayvon after he shot him? That witness? The one whom police claim her story doesn't match what she supposedly originally told them? It's funny how "all the witnesses" that exist seem to only be those who back up the story you accept.



Now I'm not saying that Zimmerman should walk free based on what we know, but I find your assertion to be highly suspect.

What assertion is suspect? That Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old kid? That's not even up for debate. That the local police are trying to cover something up? So now you fully trust the state? Cause I don't. It's possible that Zimmerman is innocent and the police still are involved in a cover up of evidence that might make him look guilty. If we presume Crutcher isn't lying (no reason to suspect she is) then it's highly likely that something fishy is going on.

[kahless]

I don't know much at all about this case but I fail to see the reason to care much about it. Some guy shot another guy over something. It happens everyday folks, don't we have an election to win?

If it was not this case I suspect they would have found another. I believe it is all about making this election cycle all about race again for Obama's re-election campaign. If he wins or loses the point is to pass more gun control regulations and pass more laws to favor minority groups.

There are other cases that seem more clear cut but they do not want that. They want something that will drag out and create ethnic strife through the cycle for political purposes. They will use this case to do it and Republicans will cower in fear of being labeled against the victim or fear of being labeled a racist. It is disgusting.

[Brian4Liberty]

Did you really just suggest that just being a young black male is "probable cause"?

Where I grew up, any teenager was suspect and liable to be stopped by the Police, especially at night. They claimed that a teenager out at night was "probable cause" for a Q&A. Or some neighborhood busy-body might say something to you. Or some farmer might shoot in your direction (supposedly with rock-salt in his shells) if you went on his property. Luckily, we never were shot by any of the above, probably because we refrained from jumping on any of them and beating on them. Heck, we didn't even talk back (to adults). A different time and place I guess.

[specsaregood]

Where I grew up, any teenager was suspect and liable to be stopped by the Police, especially at night. They claimed that a teenager out at night was "probable cause" for a Q&A. Or some neighborhood busy-body might say something to you. Or some farmer might shoot in your direction (supposedly with rock-salt in his shells) if you went on his property. Luckily, we never were shot by any of the above, probably because we refrained from jumping on any of them and beating on them. Heck, we didn't even talk back (to adults). A different time and place I guess.

Funny, i grew up surrounded by farms and did have that very same shotgun warning shots fired at me. Don't ever remember seeing cops except once for a marijuana growop bust in the fields. Certainly never got harassed by anybody for walking on the public streets or woods or whatnot -- maybe offered a ride or two by neighbors but never harassed about being out.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Guy is guilty of shooting the kid but he'll probably get off on self defense. Cops told him to stay in the car and not do anything and instead he got out of the car, argued with the kid, and then shot him after being struck in the face and falling to the ground. For all the kid knew he was some guy with a gun looking to hurt him. A previous criminal history doesn't make it ok to kill him either and neither does the type of language he used on the internet which isn't an accurate representation of anyone. He had some "marijuana residue" in his bag, he had a flat head screw driver, was in possession of women's jewelery, and tagged up a locker. I'm guilty of most of that and that doesn't make me a horrible criminal out prowling the streets.

[RonPaulMall]

140 lbs at 6'3. The height is key. Of course people can win fights against bigger people. But at 6'3 140lbs the kid is so incredibly skinny there's simply no way he could have the strength to move a 240 lb man. I'm sure someone could be...say 5'9 140 lbs and a very effective fighter.

You are assuming two guys walking in a ring to fight. This was a short, fat, completely un-athletic dude walking around his own neighborhood thinking all that was giong to happen was a conversation. A young, in shape, possibly quite used to fighting kid, who unexpectedly punches him in the face would have a huge advantage in any "fight" moving forward. Hell, we don't even have any evidence Zimmerman fought back at all until he fired his gun. He could have just been trying to block the blows. I've seen plenty of fights like that when a brawler initiates an attack on somebody who never gets in fights.

Bottom line- we don't know what happened. Our legal system requires probable cause that a crime was committed to make an arrest or press charges. That clearly doesn't exist as of now. Keep investigating by all means. But stop with the lynch mob calls for an arrest before you find cause. If you do that, you are no better than the Black Panthers calling for murder before probable cause.

[DerailingDaTrain]

You are assuming two guys walking in a ring to fight. This was a short, fat, completely un-athletic dude walking around his own neighborhood thinking all that was giong to happen was a conversation. A young, in shape, possibly quite used to fighting kid, who unexpectedly punches him in the face would have a huge advantage in any "fight" moving forward. Hell, we don't even have any evidence Zimmerman fought back at all until he fired his gun. He could have just been trying to block the blows. I've seen plenty of fights like that when a brawler initiates an attack on somebody who never gets in fights.

Bottom line- we don't know what happened. Our legal system requires probable cause that a crime was committed to make an arrest or press charges. That clearly doesn't exist as of now. Keep investigating by all means. But stop with the lynch mob calls for an arrest before you find cause. If you do that, you are no better than the Black Panthers calling for murder before probable cause.

Zimmerman himself says that isn't how it happened. He wasn't trying to have a conversation, he had a gun with him, he got out of the car when instructed not to, argued with the kid, and then was struck in the nose, fell to the ground and hit his head, then shot the kid in "self defense" according to the witnesses.

Martin was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin's girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.

Zimmerman phoned the Sanford Police Department police at the non-emergency number at approximately 7:00 p.m., February 26, 2012. The dispatcher recommended that he not take any action, and informed him that police were on the way. Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running. The dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher informed him that this was not necessary, saying "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman affirmed "OK" and made arrangements to meet with police when they arrived.

When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest. The police report states that they attempted CPR, paramedics arrived and continued CPR, finally declaring him dead at 7:30 p.m. Statements by the police say Zimmerman had grass on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head; subsequently his lawyer stated that Zimmerman's nose was broken. The police report does not indicate that Zimmerman required medical attention. Zimmerman asserted self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.

The story doesn't match up. Also if this is a recent photo taken by the police then why does his nose look so perfect?

http://newsone.com/files/2012/03/George-Zimmerman-racial-slur.jpg

[specsaregood]

You are assuming two guys walking in a ring to fight. This was a short, fat, completely un-athletic dude walking around his own neighborhood thinking all that was giong to happen was a conversation.

really? all he thought that would happen is a conversation? after he had already called the cops. interesting, if I call the cops on somebody, the last thing I think would happen is just a friendly conversation -- otherwise I wouldn't have called the cops on them already.

[azxd]

And this makes it okay to kill him?If he's out to kill you, and who's to say he wasn't ... Meet the threat force with an equal level.

[azxd]

Sounds like my suspension relating to the "deadly weapon" found on my person: a paring knife used to section and eat citrus.Really ???

Did you also have a mans Rolex in your pocket :D

[azxd]

There is also plenty of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman is a racist that hates blacks and was looking for an excuse to blow one away.

I have been trying to stay away from that angle,,

It does explain the initial 911 call of a suspicious person.I thought you hated cops.

[azxd]

No they weren't "both looking fora fight"
The kid was walking home with candy from the store. Zimmerman was out on the prowl looking for someone to shoot.

SEE
I can play this stupid shit game too.
:mad:


Who said Zimmerman wanted to shoot Trayvon? Nobody here at RPF that I've seen. It's clear that Zimmerman was following Trayvon and that Zimmerman accosted Trayvon. It's likely based on the evidence I've seen that Zimmerman initiated unwelcome contact (assault and or battery) against Trayvon, but that Trayvon threw the first actual "punch". This was from the beginning at least worth a grand jury investigation and I'm glad that at least that is happening. As for your OP, it's funny how folks didn't want Zimmerman's past coming out (expunged assault charges against a cop) but people want to try the dead kid.

That said Trayvon was underweight being only 140 lbs. And there are a lot of "overweight" people that can actually fight. If I had to put money on the fight between the two just on body type I would have put it on Zimmerman.9 posts above you

[DerailingDaTrain]

Florida...didn't they let Casey Anthony go free?

[Toureg89]

So now you fully trust the state? Cause I don't. It's possible that Zimmerman is innocent and the police still are involved in a cover up of evidence that might make him look guilty. If we presume Crutcher isn't lying (no reason to suspect she is) then it's highly likely that something fishy is going on.
be a native of Orlando, and regularly speaking to people in sanford, i can attest that their department is crappy. lazy and unresponsive to the desires of citizens even. but i still would like to caution a certain reserve for waiting till the trial (as it seems you have also done as well).


This was a short, fat, completely un-athletic dude walking around his own neighborhood thinking all that was giong to happen was a conversation. .
i cant attest to the physical fitness of GZ, but i myself am 5`6 to 5`7, and weigh 250lbs, close to zimmerman. while i can throw my weight around, i am unhealthy, i dont exercise, i have terrible cardio, and i myself try to avoid fights when ever possible, never having been in one in my 23 years of existence.

just because a person is big, does not mean they can fight (thought GZ might very well have THOUGHT he could fight. who knows?)

[Toureg89]

Florida...didn't they let Casey Anthony go free?
jesus christ, not that shit again...everybody has a damn opinion about everything.

[DerailingDaTrain]

jesus christ, not that shit again...everybody has a damn opinion about everything.

Yeah, most of the country has a damn opinion about that, and this. I didn't know we were prevented from having opinions these days.

Witnesses had previously noted that Zimmerman went door to door warning residents to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders"

News reports noted that the police department of the city of Sanford has faced previous allegations of racial prejudice. In 2011, chief of police Brian Tooley was forced from office after declining to prosecute a police lieutenant's son for beating up a homeless black man, in an incident caught on video. After the footage went viral on YouTube, the perpetrator, Justin Collison, was arrested. The officer in charge of that case was also in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene. In 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford police department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. The guards asserted self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.

[angelatc]

This blog needs to clean out the trolls. IMHO, it is becoming more and more like the National Inquirer -- it is losing all credibility as a supporter of Ron Paul. Ron Paul supports the Constitution and due process, not mob rule. All of you folks supporting lies and hearsay, and the law of the jungle, may get what you wish for some day soon. Zimmerman and the local police department should be put on trial in a court of law -- Zimmerman shot an unarmed 17 year old kid and it appears the local police tried to cover it up..

Oh lighten up. Public discussion over these dramas predates the Constitution.

[jmdrake]

Interesting analysis. I agree except for the picture part. Everything I've heard so far suggests that Zimmerman was never taken into custody. Which means the photo must be pre the shooting. That photo was likely taken when Zimmerman was arrested for assaulting a cop.


Zimmerman himself says that isn't how it happened. He wasn't trying to have a conversation, he had a gun with him, he got out of the car when instructed not to, argued with the kid, and then was struck in the nose, fell to the ground and hit his head, then shot the kid in "self defense" according to the witnesses.

Martin was speaking on a cell phone at the time of the incident. Martin's girlfriend came forward, identifying herself as the other person in that conversation; she was interviewed by an attorney, who has made a statement, and her parents have requested her anonymity. The girl said that Martin expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been knocked down. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.

Zimmerman phoned the Sanford Police Department police at the non-emergency number at approximately 7:00 p.m., February 26, 2012. The dispatcher recommended that he not take any action, and informed him that police were on the way. Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running. The dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher informed him that this was not necessary, saying "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman affirmed "OK" and made arrangements to meet with police when they arrived.

When the police arrived, they reported finding Martin face-down and unresponsive, with a gunshot wound in the chest. The police report states that they attempted CPR, paramedics arrived and continued CPR, finally declaring him dead at 7:30 p.m. Statements by the police say Zimmerman had grass on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head; subsequently his lawyer stated that Zimmerman's nose was broken. The police report does not indicate that Zimmerman required medical attention. Zimmerman asserted self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.

The story doesn't match up. Also if this is a recent photo taken by the police then why does his nose look so perfect?

http://newsone.com/files/2012/03/George-Zimmerman-racial-slur.jpg

[angelatc]

Florida...didn't they let Casey Anthony go free?

Meaning that you know more about the case than the jury that acquitted her did? We the people are much better off with juries that don't give the state the benefit of the doubt than we would be the other way around.

[jmdrake]

You are assuming two guys walking in a ring to fight. This was a short, fat, completely un-athletic dude walking around his own neighborhood thinking all that was giong to happen was a conversation. A young, in shape, possibly quite used to fighting kid, who unexpectedly punches him in the face would have a huge advantage in any "fight" moving forward. Hell, we don't even have any evidence Zimmerman fought back at all until he fired his gun. He could have just been trying to block the blows. I've seen plenty of fights like that when a brawler initiates an attack on somebody who never gets in fights.

Bottom line- we don't know what happened. Our legal system requires probable cause that a crime was committed to make an arrest or press charges. That clearly doesn't exist as of now. Keep investigating by all means. But stop with the lynch mob calls for an arrest before you find cause. If you do that, you are no better than the Black Panthers calling for murder before probable cause.

He's not assuming anything. You are. He's going from the known fact which are the height and weight of both parties. How do you know Zimmerman was completely un-athletic? How do you know Trayvon was "in shape"? Because he wasn't fat? Zimmerman apparently was confident enough in his own physical prowess to approach this "scary athletic kid possibly used to fighting" in the first place. That...or he was confident in his ability to shoot to kill.

Edit: And it was your side that brought up the MMA argument.


Come on down to my MMA Gym, I'll show you some 140 pounders who could rock any 240 pound bodybuilder's world. (I'm not taking a side or trying in anyway to say what happened that night just that thinking people can't take on someone bigger than them is flawed)

[angelatc]

. Zimmerman asserted self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck.

The story doesn't match up.


No, it doesn't even match up with his statement to the dispatcher.

[angelatc]

. Zimmerman asserted self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck.

The story doesn't match up.


No, it doesn't even match up with his statement to the dispatcher.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Meaning that you know more about the case than the jury that acquitted her did? We the people are much better off with juries that don't give the state the benefit of the doubt than we would be the other way around.

Thanks to how big the case got in the media I would say that everyone knows what happened. There is no way she wasn't connected to her daughter's death. The jury just couldn't convict her because of how both sides portrayed her to the extremes (one as a faithful loving parent the other as a wild party girl).

[dannno]

And black to boot! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG.

What the fuck is your infatuation with this kids grill???

Gold Teeth=criminal? Or is it something more???? I'm going with something more, for the simple fact you've mentioned it a dozen times in the 12 different threads here about it..


It means he has probably been in gang fights. It means he is probably a thug, even if he wasn't the most thuggish of thugs.

The fact that the media is using old photos from years ago means they probably have an agenda. It means they are probably manufacturing this to be something that it isn't. I'm not going to fall for it.

I never said I know for sure what happened, but I'm just saying the evidence that we have right now doesn't indicate that Zimmerman hunted down an 'innocent kid', it looks like in fact the 'innocent kid' may have attacked him.

[dannno]

No, it doesn't even match up with his statement to the dispatcher.

His statement to the dispatcher was earlier IIRC.. Trayvon then disappeared for 4 minutes. Then Zimmerman got out of his car and Trayvon apparently came up behind him, asked him a question and then attacked him.

[DerailingDaTrain]

It means he has probably been in gang fights. It means he is probably a thug, even if he wasn't the most thuggish of thugs.

The fact that the media is using old photos from years ago means they probably have an agenda. It means they are probably manufacturing this to be something that it isn't. I'm not going to fall for it.

I never said I know for sure what happened, but I'm just saying the evidence that we have right now doesn't indicate that Zimmerman hunted down an 'innocent kid', it looks like in fact the 'innocent kid' may have attacked him.

What the hell? A kid wearing a "grill" does not mean he has been in gang fights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grill_%28jewelry%29#Criticism_and_health_hazards

It's a piece of jewelery popular with kids because rappers wear them. Also, the evidence shows that he hunted down an innocent unarmed kid who lived in the neighborhood, after he was TOLD NOT TO do anything and he agreed that he wouldn't.

A lot of people were quick to blame Zimmerman (who has a criminal history). He was called a racist, a crazy man, someone who stalked an innocent teen. But now it seems that has switched to the kid because of how he talked on the internet and what kind of clothes he wore (who was suspended from school). Now he is a thug, a criminal, a gang member, someone who has been in gang fights, a dangerous person who had to be put down...give it a rest.

[RonPaulMall]

He's not assuming anything. You are. He's going from the known fact which are the height and weight of both parties. How do you know Zimmerman was completely un-athletic? How do you know Trayvon was "in shape"? Because he wasn't fat? Zimmerman apparently was confident enough in his own physical prowess to approach this "scary athletic kid possibly used to fighting" in the first place. That...or he was confident in his ability to shoot to kill.


I've seen pictures. Media has reported Zimmerman's height and weight. The dude is short and obese. Period. Trayvon is literally an athlete. He plays football for his school. These are not assumptions. The idea that a gold toothed, 17 year old football player could easily take down a short, overweight busybody, especially if he gets the first punch in, is not difficult to imagine at all.

There needs to be evidence of a crime for Zimmerman to be arrested. So, far, nothing of the sort exists. All the evidence, to the extent it shows anything, backs up his story of what would be under Florida law a justifiable killing.

[angelatc]

Thanks to how big the case got in the media I would say that everyone knows what happened. There is no way she wasn't connected to her daughter's death. The jury just couldn't convict her because of how both sides portrayed her to the extremes (one as a faithful loving parent the other as a wild party girl).

Nancy Grace's spin = truth & justice for all? The jury didn't convict her because the state couldn't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. That's exactly how the system is supposed to work.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Nancy Grace's spin = truth & justice for all? The jury didn't convict her because the state couldn't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. That's exactly how the system is supposed to work.

If you think that she didn't do it that is fine. The evidence and facts suggest otherwise but this thread is for talking about GZ and TM (Yes, I know I brought it up, sorry people).

[moo]

His statement to the dispatcher was earlier IIRC.. Trayvon then disappeared for 4 minutes. Then Zimmerman got out of his car and Trayvon apparently came up behind him, asked him a question and then attacked him.

where in the hell did you get that story from?

[dannno]

What the hell? A kid wearing a "grill" does not mean he has been in gang fights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grill_%28jewelry%29#Criticism_and_health_hazards

It's a piece of jewelery popular with kids because rappers wear them. Also, the evidence shows that he hunted down an innocent unarmed kid who lived in the neighborhood, after he was TOLD NOT TO do anything and he agreed that he wouldn't.

A lot of people were quick to blame Zimmerman (who has a criminal history). He was called a racist, a crazy man, someone who stalked an innocent teen. But now it seems that has switched to the kid because of how he talked on the internet and what kind of clothes he wore (who was suspended from school). Now he is a thug, a criminal, a gang member, someone who has been in gang fights, a dangerous person who had to be put down...give it a rest.

Needed to be put down?! I never said anything like that. I honestly don't care what people wear and I don't assume that everybody who dresses like a thug is actually a thug.. however they are at least PRETENDING to be a thug.

What I'm doing is showing the difference between the mainstream media spin and reality, and what that reality likely entails.

[specsaregood]

What the hell? A kid wearing a "grill" does not mean he has been in gang fights.


You can't trust Dannno. He is a pot smoker who has also done unknown amounts of other illegal drugs; which means he is comfortable associating with criminals and comfortable breaking laws as he is a criminal himself.

see how easy it is....

[dannno]

where in the hell did you get that story from?

Zimmerman and the witnesses all corroborate this story, there is no contradictory evidence. All of the lies and insinuations so far have come from defending Trayvon. I haven't seen ONE single lie coming from the Zimmerman side.

[jmdrake]

I've seen pictures. Media has reported Zimmerman's height and weight. The dude is short and obese. Period. Trayvon is literally an athlete. He plays football for his school. These are not assumptions. The idea that a gold toothed, 17 year old football player could easily take down a short, overweight busybody, especially if he gets the first punch in, is not difficult to imagine at all.

There needs to be evidence of a crime for Zimmerman to be arrested. So, far, nothing of the sort exists. All the evidence, to the extent it shows anything, backs up his story of what would be under Florida law a justifiable killing.

And Zimmerman had Trayvon's HS resume? :rolleyes: You're blowing so much smoke you could be a fixture at Van Halen's next concert. As for your silly assertion that obese = can't fight....

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/images/fighter/354_l.jpg

And I'm not saying that Trayvon couldn't take down Zimmerman. I'm saying the idea that Zimmerman wouldn't have instigated anything because he thought this 140 lbs kid he didn't know from Adam would beat him up is just stupid. The "gold tooth" part means nothing. And no. All of the evidence does not back up the story that this was justifiable under Florida's law. You're just ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your point of view. The statement by Mary Crutcher and by Trayvon's girlfriend goes against your assertion. You might not think that evidence is strong enough, but it's dishonest for you to pretend it doesn't exist.

[jmdrake]

Zimmerman and the witnesses all corroborate this story, there is no contradictory evidence. All of the lies and insinuations so far have come from defending Trayvon. I haven't seen ONE single lie coming from the Zimmerman side.

Not true. You must not be paying attention to the dispute between witness Mary Crutcher and the police despite the fact that this has been linked to multiple times. And the phone conversation between Trayvon and his girlfriend disputes the argument made by your side (you if I recall correctly) that Trayvon passed words first. (Not that that matters. But you did make that baseless assertion).

[jmdrake]

It means he has probably been in gang fights. It means he is probably a thug, even if he wasn't the most thuggish of thugs.

Or it means he wore fake gold teeth because he thought they looked cool. Honestly I can't believe you would say anything so ridiculous! Most people with gold teeth have not lost their teeth.

[specsaregood]

Or it means he wore fake gold teeth because he thought they looked cool. Honestly I can't believe would say anything so ridiculous! Most people with gold teeth have not lost their teeth.

never expected to see the day where RP supporters thought negatively of people investing in precious metals.

[dannno]

Not true. You must not be paying attention to the dispute between witness Mary Crutcher and the police despite the fact that this has been linked to multiple times.

Ya sorry I haven't seen anything on Mary Crutcher, there must be 7 or 8 threads and over 100 pages on this subject.

[moo]

Zimmerman and the witnesses all corroborate this story, there is no contradictory evidence. All of the lies and insinuations so far have come from defending Trayvon. I haven't seen ONE single lie coming from the Zimmerman side.

the lie which got trayvon killed came from zimmerman's own mouth & the world heard it.

[VBRonPaulFan]

the more i hear, the more it sounds like both parties share equal responsibility for the outcome. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed the kid, and what he did was stalking/harassment. Trayvon should definitely not have attacked someone without damn good reason, because you never know when the a-hole whos ass you're trying to kick is armed. unfortunately, Trayvon didn't play the odds correctly and already paid his dues. i don't think Zimmerman should be charged with murder, because it honestly sounds like self defense at the point when he was attacked. at a minimum, he should be charged with stalking and harassment, though.

[dannno]

Or it means he wore fake gold teeth because he thought they looked cool. Honestly I can't believe would say anything so ridiculous! Most people with gold teeth have not lost their teeth.

So why did the media use pictures from when he was like 14 instead of more recent photos that showed his gold teeth and such? You don't think there is an agenda to make this into a huge racial issue?

I don't defend Zimmerman killing the kid, but if somebody attacked me from behind and was beating me in the head and the only thing I had to defend myself was a gun, I'd probably shoot them in the leg or something.

There's no reason to believe that Zimmerman wasn't attacked.

[dannno]

the lie which got trayvon killed came from zimmerman's own mouth & the world heard it.

What was that?

[AuH20]

So why did the media use pictures from when he was like 14 instead of more recent photos that showed his gold teeth and such? You don't think there is an agenda to make this into a huge racial issue?

I don't defend Zimmerman killing the kid, but if somebody attacked me from behind and was beating me in the head and the only thing I had to defend myself was a gun, I'd probably shoot them in the leg or something.

There's no reason to believe that Zimmerman wasn't attacked.

Bingo. It would have been more than embarassing if Obama stated that Trayvon Gold Grill could have been theoretically his son. All these leeches are concerned with is weaving a narrative which is beneficial to their agenda. Trayvon with his grill and 5 o'clock shadow simply doesn't conjure the same sympathy as the junior high shot of Martin. He looks like he could star in a sitcom for Christ's sake. The message being amplified is that Zimmerman is a hellbent racist monster and that Trayvon was a young boy pure as the freshly fallen snow.

[angelatc]

the more i hear, the more it sounds like both parties share equal responsibility for the outcome. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed the kid, and what he did was stalking/harassment. Trayvon should definitely not have attacked someone without damn good reason, because you never know when the a-hole whos ass you're trying to kick is armed. unfortunately, Trayvon didn't play the odds correctly and already paid his dues. i don't think Zimmerman should be charged with murder, because it honestly sounds like self defense at the point when he was attacked. at a minimum, he should be charged with stalking and harassment, though.

I don't disagree, but the thing is this: In Florida, you can't use the self defense as justification if you provoked the incident. So if the jury decides that stalking the kid was a provocation, self defense isn't on the table.

But if the jury decides that there were two separate incidents, then it could be self defense.

Either way, for me the underlying issue is that it's clear that what happened that night isn't clear. The fact that the local government decided not to pursue the issue was a mistake.

[azxd]

Trayvon Martin’s Girlfriend Talks About Final Call

On Monday morning ABC News published an interview with a 16-year old girl who is believed to have been on the phone with Trayvon Martin moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said told ABC News, in an interview with lawyers asking the questions because the girl is underage. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

ABC News verified phone records and the girl’s statements are believed to be accurate.

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone,” the girl went on to say.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/...l_moments.html
So (http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/...l_moments.html[/QUOTE]So) much for that following/stalking theory some of the quick to decide want to toss around.

[jmdrake]

So why did the media use pictures from when he was like 14 instead of more recent photos that showed his gold teeth and such? You don't think there is an agenda to make this into a huge racial issue?

False choice fallacy. Media bias in this case does not mean that everyone with gold teeth has lost teeth in a gang fight or in any other method. Come on Dannno. You mean to tell me you've never heard of someone having a gold tooth bonded over his real teeth just because he thought it looked cool? Seriously? And Zimmerman's "f*ing coon" comment on the 9/11 tape is largely responsible for the race angle. Yeah I've heard "He really said goon" and "Nobody says coon anymore" arguments here at RPF and....I don't buy it. Sorry, I just don't. But it doesn't matter anyway. What's really on trial is Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. If Trayvon were white I would call his death totally unnecessary. And if a "Stand Your Ground" law convinces people like Zimmerman that they can do what he admittedly did and be protected by the law, then that law needs to be repealed.



I don't defend Zimmerman killing the kid, but if somebody attacked me from behind and was beating me in the head and the only thing I had to defend myself was a gun, I'd probably shoot them in the leg or something.

There's no reason to believe that Zimmerman wasn't attacked.

There is no reason to believe that Zimmerman was attacked by surprise from behind. None whatsoever. Not even Zimmerman's own statements lead any rational person to believe that. Some kind of altercation ensued while Trayvon was still talking on his headset and while he and Zimmerman were exchanging words and possibly pushes. Who pushed who first? I don't know. That's why we have trials or at least we are supposed to have trials.

[azxd]

40,000 people at 1 rally
2+ million petition signatures
1 statement from the president
$10,000 bounty for his arrest which is set to increase to $100,000

after all that, he has not been arrested and nobody knows where he is?

george zimmerman has more authority than every single american in this nation right now and he is being fiercely protected. the PRESIDENT has stated to the ENTIRE WORLD that this is a SERIOUS case and zimmerman is still free? now they're trying to dehumanize trayvon from the shadows like the cowards they are by portraying him as a criminal who deserved to be killed for no other reason than being a black man.

trayvon martin was lynched.And how do you feel about the wanted dead or alive aspect that now chases Zimmerman ?

Equally important,
How do you feel about a POTUS who can't keep his form of Federal Government out of things that should be handled at the local level ?

[moo]

now we're getting more information on the coverup
"According to court records: George Zimmerman is the son of retired Virginia Supreme Court magistrate Judge Robert J. Zimmerman, his mother Gladys Zimmerman is a court clerk....He has three closed arrests"

[dannno]

Or it means he wore fake gold teeth because he thought they looked cool. Honestly I can't believe you would say anything so ridiculous! Most people with gold teeth have not lost their teeth.

They don't get them to look 'cool', they get them to look menacing.

I've been friends with quite a few gang members, I have no problem with them as individuals generally because I feel as though they just got caught up in it as it was their best option at the time. The ones I have known are generally nice people. I don't usually feel threatened by them, but I can understand why others might. I can understand why a neighborhood watch person might have been leary of this Trayvon kid and it seems reasonable that someone in a neighborhood watch might call the cops and try and keep an eye on them, especially if they are in a gated community and not going on other's private property.

The only thing I don't understand is why Zimmerman felt the need to shoot the kid in the chest rather than a no-kill area.

I agree it should be investigated and Zimmerman should be tried, but I just have a hard time with the media version where this guy supposedly hunted this kid down and shot him just because he was black.

[azxd]

No a screw driver is not a burglary tool.

However, a screw driver in tandem with women's jewelry in a man's backpack at school is rather damning. Don't ya think?

Let's keep it in context.Keeping things in context destroys the condemned before a trial, kill whitey mentality, that currently permeates this case.

[azxd]

who cares about this let's get Ron Paul elected president!Isn't it kind of obvious ;)

[jmdrake]

So much for that following/stalking theory some of the quick to decide want to toss around.

I see you only highlighted the part that you think fits your argument. Here's what you did not highlight.

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone,” the girl went on to say.

Common sense is that Trayvon temporarily lost Zimmerman, but Zimmerman found him again. Words were exchange and things got physical. It's not unreasonable for a juror based on this evidence to believe Zimmerman pushed first, it's not unreasonable for a juror to believe the opposite either. That's why there should at least be a preliminary investigation and possibly a trial. Short circuiting justice as the police and prosecutors initially did in this case helps no one.

[AuH20]

Keeping things in context destroys the condemned before a trial, kill whitey mentality, that currently permeates this case.

Got to pick up a t shirt. Now Zimmerman is a "Pussy Ass Cracker."

http://work949.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/pussy-ass-cracker-photo1.jpg

[moo]

And how do you feel about the wanted dead or alive aspect that now chases Zimmerman ?

Equally important,
How do you feel about a POTUS who can't keep his form of Federal Government out of things that should be handled at the local level ?

If trayvon was my child, I'd do everything humanly possible to uncover the truth and have the person(s) responsible for his murder and the cover up punished to the maximum extent of the law.

[azxd]

I regret only having 1 +rep to give you for this post! Yes Zimmerman has done a disservice for gun ownership and a disservice for "stand your ground" laws in Florida and other states. And those doing the "goal line defense" of Zimmerman are doing a disservice as well. If a James Bond style "license to kill" is the result of the Florida stand your ground law then the law should be repealed. But I don't think that's the case. And no, that doesn't mean I want Zimmerman automatically convicted or "lynched" or any of the other rash accusations coming from the Zimmerman defenders. But I do want him to be forced to answer for what he did under oath! He should not get IMMUNITY from prosecution just on a disputed claim! I'm not sure why that's so hard for some people to grasp. Nor do I understand why some are willing to drudge through the dead kid's past, but not Zimmermans. Zimmerman was accused of assaulting a cop. The charges against him were expunged. The same people here who seem to believe that we can trust cops 100% when they say they have no reason to arrest Zimmerman apparently don't trust the cop who said Zimmerman assaulted him. You can't have it both ways.Then quit pissing all your time away helping those who are defending a dead kid, and work for Ron a bit more.

April 10th fast approaches, but no one gives a damn about that, nor do they seem to remember what this froum was started for.

COP bashing, and injustice seems to be more important than getting Ron elected.

It's great entertainment, but IMHO the MOD's should have never allowed all this sub-forum pollution to occur.
His support structure hurts him in many ways.

[jmdrake]

They don't get them to look 'cool', they get them to look menacing.

They who? Most people I know get gold teeth to look cool. They're typically not even permanently attacked. Nothing "menacing" about it.



I've been friends with quite a few gang members


Ah. So now you're an expert. :rolleyes: Next you'll be telling us about the sex practices of gang members.



The only thing I don't understand is why Zimmerman felt the need to shoot the kid in the chest rather than a no-kill area.


If Zimmerman was justified under the circumstances in pulling a gun at all (and I don't think he was) then he was justified in shooting to kill. Too many things can go wrong once a gun is pulled especially in close quarters. Let's say this was someone hyped up on PCP and not feeling pain. Zimmerman could have shot him in the leg, the assailant could have taken the gun and then shot Zimmerman.



I agree it should be investigated and Zimmerman should be tried, but I just have a hard time with the media version where this guy supposedly hunted this kid down and shot him just because he was black.

And so the answer is to push a version of events where everyone with gold teeth and/or a tattoo is potentially a menacing gang banger even those so far there's no evidence of that? Really? That's where the "libertarian ideals" of RPF lead you? Sad if that's the case.

[jmdrake]

Then quit pissing all your time away helping those who are defending a dead kid, and work for Ron a bit more.

April 10th fast approaches, but no one gives a damn about that, nor do they seem to remember what this froum was started for.

COP bashing, and injustice seems to be more important than getting Ron elected.

It's great entertainment, but IMHO the MOD's should have never allowed all this sub-forum pollution to occur.
His support structure hurts him in many ways.

:rolleyes: It's funny how when someone starts loosing an argument in a thread like this all of a sudden they remember there are "more important things". Quit wasting your time keeping the argument going.

[jmdrake]

Got to pick up a t shirt. Now Zimmerman is a "Pussy Ass Cracker."

http://work949.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/pussy-ass-cracker-photo1.jpg

He's got gold teeth! He must have lost them all in a gang initiation! Run!

[azxd]

Cough cough - he was less than a month into year 17.And there are people younger than this on death row ... Translation = Who cares how old he was, except the bleeding hearts club.

I find it kind of disgusting that all the admitted cop haters on this forum, want to blame Zimmerman before a trial, but don't have the guts to blame the local cops for not responding quicker ... Pathetic comes to mind, but I'm not sure if it should be applied.

[azxd]

im not concern so much about the media as peoples willingness to jump to the conclusion that one person was completely innocent and the other completely guilty.
Racism and prejudice are two way streets, and only each of us knows why we are so quick to judge and find guilt.

[dannno]

And so the answer is to push a version of events where everyone with gold teeth and/or a tattoo is potentially a menacing gang banger even those so far there's no evidence of that? Really? That's where the "libertarian ideals" of RPF lead you? Sad if that's the case.

Every male between the age of 13 and 40 is "potentially" a menacing gang banger, that isn't really the point so much as the point is that he might not have been just some innocent little kid on his way back from the store, and he very well may have attacked Zimmerman from behind. A far cry from the story and pictures we got in the media.

When you kill somebody, it is the job of society to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were not doing it in self defense. I have not seen any evidence that Zimmerman was not doing it in self defense. Admittedly I haven't seen the Mary Crutch stuff yet, either.

[AuH20]

Racism and prejudice are two way streets, and only each of us knows why we are so quick to judge and find guilt.

The people who are each defending Martin and Zimmerman as being completely innocent I completely tune out. They are projecting their subconscious biases. Neither party is innocent, though obviously I feel more of the onus lies with Zimmerman for fatally shooting Martin.

[squarepusher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgRKUo-YEv0&feature=player_embedded

[azxd]

Come now, the dude is as pale as me and I've never had anybody mistake me for anything other than white.

The press portrayed it differently for a reason ... YES ?

[jmdrake]

Every male between the age of 13 and 40 is "potentially" a menacing gang banger, that isn't really the point so much as the point is that he might not have been just some innocent little kid on his way back from the store, and he very well may have attacked Zimmerman from behind. A far cry from the story and pictures we got in the media.

When you kill somebody, it is the job of society to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were not doing it in self defense. I have not seen any evidence that Zimmerman was not doing it in self defense. Admittedly I haven't seen the Mary Crutch stuff yet, either.

And that's why we have these things called "trials". What you and every other Zimmerman defender keep glossing over is that the whole argument isn't over whether or not Zimmerman should be convicted, but whether or not he should have a trial.

[azxd]

George Zimmerman has already been tried and found guilty of a hate crime in the court of public opinion. If, in a court of law by a jury of Trayvon Martin's peers, he is found anything less than guilty of 1st degree murder and given a death sentence, there will be no peace.YEP, and it's on public display here and elsewhere.

[jmdrake]

YEP, and it's on public display here and elsewhere.

Yes. Asking for a trial and suggesting that this isn't 1st degree murder but at most 2nd or 3rd degree = no peace for anything less than 1st degree murder. :rolleyes:

[azxd]

No they weren't "both looking fora fight"
The kid was walking home with candy from the store. Zimmerman was out on the prowl looking for someone to shoot.

SEE
I can play this stupid shit game too.
:mad:

I know you quit the other thread early yesterday, but the evidence points to Trayvon hiding then coming up from behind Zimmerman and saying, "hey, you got a problem?" Zimmerman says, "no" and Trayvon says, "you do now!" and decks him and starts beating his head on the ground. Witnesses have corroborated most of his story.

Again, the pics of Trayvon in the media are total bullshit, from several years ago.. This kid is big, 6'3", in good shape and has a GOLD GRILL in his mouth. He looks nothing like the media portrays him to be. I am kinda surprised you have taken the media's line on this incident. I usually tend to believe the opposite of whatever the media is saying.I'm not !!

[specsaregood]

The press portrayed it differently for a reason ... YES ?

Not following. I thought the complaint was that he was portrayed as white.

[azxd]

Exactly. We see this angelic photo of Martin being circulated by AP and then the President goes as far to say that this clean cut boy could have been his son. What a coincidence? Complete media orchestration when you start to delve into the raw details.Do you remember the working another angle toward gun control the POTUS mentioned, then Fast & Furious broke ... I view this as another attempt to chop at the Second.

[AuH20]

I agree with the investigator. Definitely go for manslaughter. To logically conclude that Zimmerman intended beforehand to murder Martin is comical to say the least. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't physically struggle with my intended victim at close quarters and summarily get my ass kicked, if my goal was to pull off a cold blooded murder. Any consideration for murder charges should be thrown out.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674

[UtahApocalypse]

I am willing to bet that if Zimmerman is not charged with Murder, and convicted with a death penalty we see Florida (and possibly) Rodney King riots.

[azxd]

This blog needs to clean out the trolls. IMHO, it is becoming more and more like the National Inquirer -- it is losing all credibility as a supporter of Ron Paul. Ron Paul supports the Constitution and due process, not mob rule. All of you folks supporting lies and hearsay, and the law of the jungle, may get what you wish for some day soon.
YEP ... Stuff like this is why my post count disappeared for a few years.

This place is, it seems, less than 50% about RP.

[AuH20]

I am willing to bet that if Zimmerman is not charged with Murder, and convicted with a death penalty we see Florida (and possibly) Rodney King riots.

Agreed. He has been officially labeled as a KKK like killer by the press and consequently by the public. They want blood. First degree or second degree manslaughter, while highly appropriate based on the facts of the case isn't going to satisfy the thirst of the mob.

[cajuncocoa]

I am willing to bet that if Zimmerman is not charged with Murder, and convicted with a death penalty we see Florida (and possibly) Rodney King riots.It's looking that way.

[azxd]

140 lbs at 6'3. The height is key. Of course people can win fights against bigger people. But at 6'3 140lbs the kid is so incredibly skinny there's simply no way he could have the strength to move a 240 lb man. I'm sure someone could be...say 5'9 140 lbs and a very effective fighter.Young, skinny, flexible ... Talk to a neurosurgeon and ask them about the people who's heads are kicked in while they are on the ground.

Today's thugs don't play by school-ground rules, they keep hitting and stomping until there is no movement.

I'm not saying Martin is a thug, but that is the society we live in ... It's full of violence.

[cajuncocoa]

YEP ... Stuff like this is why my post count disappeared for a few years.

This place is, it seems, less than 50% about RP.I don't think this is true, AZ. I think this story is dominating right now because it's a high-profile, emotionally- (and racially-)charged story with elements of media manipulation and propaganda thrown in....red meat for discussion. Most of the time, this place is ALL about Ron Paul.

[azxd]

Where I grew up, any teenager was suspect and liable to be stopped by the Police, especially at night. They claimed that a teenager out at night was "probable cause" for a Q&A. Or some neighborhood busy-body might say something to you. Or some farmer might shoot in your direction (supposedly with rock-salt in his shells) if you went on his property. Luckily, we never were shot by any of the above, probably because we refrained from jumping on any of them and beating on them. Heck, we didn't even talk back (to adults). A different time and place I guess.It's not the society we grew up in, that's for sure.

[azxd]

Meaning that you know more about the case than the jury that acquitted her did? We the people are much better off with juries that don't give the state the benefit of the doubt than we would be the other way around.We are better off with a jury that wants to hear the facts, not pass judgement of right and wrong on a damn forum.

[coastie]

They don't get them to look 'cool', they get them to look menacing.

I've been friends with quite a few gang members, I have no problem with them as individuals generally because I feel as though they just got caught up in it as it was their best option at the time. The ones I have known are generally nice people. I don't usually feel threatened by them, but I can understand why others might. I can understand why a neighborhood watch person might have been leary of this Trayvon kid and it seems reasonable that someone in a neighborhood watch might call the cops and try and keep an eye on them, especially if they are in a gated community and not going on other's private property.

The only thing I don't understand is why Zimmerman felt the need to shoot the kid in the chest rather than a no-kill area.

I agree it should be investigated and Zimmerman should be tried, but I just have a hard time with the media version where this guy supposedly hunted this kid down and shot him just because he was black.

You've been watching wayyyyy too may movies-or just been in Cali for too long.

NOWHERE teaches you to shoot in a "no kill zone". Not Law Enforcement, not private security-NO ONE.In the heat of the situation, YOU WILL MISS when aiming for a leg or arm.

Center mass doesn't mean just the chest area, either-it's "center mass" of the target picture as seen through your gun sights.

[azxd]

I see you only highlighted the part that you think fits your argument. Here's what you did not highlight.

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone,” the girl went on to say.

Common sense is that Trayvon temporarily lost Zimmerman, but Zimmerman found him again. Words were exchange and things got physical. It's not unreasonable for a juror based on this evidence to believe Zimmerman pushed first, it's not unreasonable for a juror to believe the opposite either. That's why there should at least be a preliminary investigation and possibly a trial. Short circuiting justice as the police and prosecutors initially did in this case helps no one.Common sense is not how a criminal investigation occurs ... Facts prevail, and if there are not enough facts, there is no case.

[azxd]

And how do you feel about the wanted dead or alive aspect that now chases Zimmerman ?

Equally important,
How do you feel about a POTUS who can't keep his form of Federal Government out of things that should be handled at the local level ?

If trayvon was my child, I'd do everything humanly possible to uncover the truth and have the person(s) responsible for his murder and the cover up punished to the maximum extent of the law.I expect any parent would do this ... Now ya wanna try answering those questions, or do they need to be more thouroughly explained and defined ?

[angelatc]

We are better off with a jury that wants to hear the facts, not pass judgement of right and wrong on a damn forum.

We would also be better off without nasty little trolls that try to tell us what we should and shouldn't talk about on an internet forum.

If you don't want to play, then go away. If you do (and you've posted enough to make me think you do) then get off the sanctimonious train. Human nature is what it is, and this is what humans do on the internet. Live with it.

[azxd]

:rolleyes: It's funny how when someone starts loosing an argument in a thread like this all of a sudden they remember there are "more important things". Quit wasting your time keeping the argument going.Oh,
I'll have to remember that ... What's more important to you ... Ron Paul or this case ?

[jmdrake]

Oh,
I'll have to remember that ... What's more important to you ... Ron Paul or this case ?

Why don't you answer that question for yourself?

[jmdrake]

Common sense is not how a criminal investigation occurs ... Facts prevail, and if there are not enough facts, there is no case.

What I gave you was a common sense reading of the facts. Jury instructions specifically admonish jurors not to leave their own experiences (i.e. common sense) outside the courtroom. And the only common sense reading of these facts is that Zimmerman found Trayvon after losing him.

[azxd]

The people who are each defending Martin and Zimmerman as being completely innocent I completely tune out. They are projecting their subconscious biases. Neither party is innocent , though obviously I feel more of the onus lies with Zimmerman for fatally shooting Martin.Agreed, but without ALL of the facts, all we see is speculation, interpretation of law, and BIAS.

My BIAS is simple ... If attacked, I will defend with an equal level of violence.
Nothing more, nothing less, and I will expect to be judged for my actions, and hopefully cleared of wrong doing.

I hope I never have to find out what such a fate might have in store for me, but I will not lay down and let another assault me.

[angelatc]

If you think that she didn't do it that is fine. The evidence and facts suggest otherwise but this thread is for talking about GZ and TM (Yes, I know I brought it up, sorry people).

I don't know that much about the case. But nothing you've said disproves my simple assertion: The state didn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Nobody said the girl was innocent. The verdict only said that the state's evidence didn't prove she was guilty.

[bolil]

Id rather talk kony.

[AlexanderY]

I am willing to bet that if Zimmerman is not charged with Murder, and convicted with a death penalty we see Florida (and possibly) Rodney King riots.

Oh yeah, I see it coming in the near future.

It's pretty much going to amount to a racial temper tantrum.

I mean look at who's present at these marches and rallies, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

This incident is racial.

Kids in predominantly black schools throughout the nation are staging walk outs.

Over a killing that, quite frankly, doesn't affect them in any way.

Not to mention, that the black murder epidemic is largely the fault of other black people (http://www1.salon.com/news/col/horo/1999/08/16/naacp/index.html), not cops, white people, or any other group.

The race hustlers are galvanizing their shock troops.

The necessary conditions for a riot are already present, all that is needed is the spark.

[azxd]

Not following. I thought the complaint was that he was portrayed as white.You're following perfectly.

The press made it a black/white thing almost instantly ... The question is ... WHY ?

[Toureg89]

Yeah, most of the country has a damn opinion about that, and this. I didn't know we were prevented from having opinions these days.
and? it wasnt for most of the country to decide her guilt, it was for her jury, which let her off. and, though i didnt pay attention that BS which was just a distraction for the public from more serious matters that are political in nature, the consensus from people whos opinions i trust seem to say that, more or less, it was not because she was innocent per say, but because the state really failed to prove its case. thats decided, constitutionally, she cant be tried again...



News reports noted that the police department of the city of Sanford has faced previous allegations of racial prejudice. In 2011, chief of police Brian Tooley was forced from office after declining to prosecute a police lieutenant's son for beating up a homeless black man, in an incident caught on video. After the footage went viral on YouTube, the perpetrator, Justin Collison, was arrested. The officer in charge of that case was also in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene. In 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford police department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. The guards asserted self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.
and what was the point in the above post when i already admitted to the SPD being a questionable policing agency?


Meaning that you know more about the case than the jury that acquitted her did? We the people are much better off with juries that don't give the state the benefit of the doubt than we would be the other way around.
this


The people who are each defending Martin and Zimmerman as being completely innocent I completely tune out. They are projecting their subconscious biases. Neither party is innocent, though obviously I feel more of the onus lies with Zimmerman for fatally shooting Martin.
being overseas, i only have heard of this case yesterday, and im still confused as to what exactly happened, as to what Zimmerman claims happened, as to what witnesses and Martins girlfiend claimed happened.

there seems to be a degree of complication to this story that most people rallying or posting on the internet (other websites) dont care to admit, they only seem to be saying its bad for older white men to kill young black kids with guns.

like i continue saying, i dont claim to know whose innocent or guilty, just that the public seems to have already made up their minds...

[azxd]

I agree with the investigator. Definitely go for manslaughter. To logically conclude that Zimmerman intended beforehand to murder Martin is comical to say the least. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't physically struggle with my intended victim at close quarters and summarily get my ass kicked, if my goal was to pull off a cold blooded murder. Any consideration for murder charges should be thrown out.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674I asked one of the 1st/2nd/3rd degree murder proponents about this yesterday, and suggested manslaughter as a potential charge ... That person wants it to be murder, nothing less.

Yet,
Manslaughter seems to be the more appropriate charge, if charges are filed.

[AlexanderY]

You're following perfectly.

The press made it a black/white thing almost instantly ... The question is ... WHY ?

To push an agenda.

To encourage black victimization, instead of black responsibility.

[DerailingDaTrain]

And how do you feel about the wanted dead or alive aspect that now chases Zimmerman ?

Equally important,
How do you feel about a POTUS who can't keep his form of Federal Government out of things that should be handled at the local level ?

Blame the NBPP not us for that. They're trying to combat racism with more racism and even Black Panthers from the 70s don't agree with them. Also, everyone was complaining that Obama didn't comment on it, so he did. Just like people are complaining that RP won't comment on it.

[DerailingDaTrain]

They don't get them to look 'cool', they get them to look menacing.

I've been friends with quite a few gang members, I have no problem with them as individuals generally because I feel as though they just got caught up in it as it was their best option at the time. The ones I have known are generally nice people. I don't usually feel threatened by them, but I can understand why others might. I can understand why a neighborhood watch person might have been leary of this Trayvon kid and it seems reasonable that someone in a neighborhood watch might call the cops and try and keep an eye on them, especially if they are in a gated community and not going on other's private property.

The only thing I don't understand is why Zimmerman felt the need to shoot the kid in the chest rather than a no-kill area.

I agree it should be investigated and Zimmerman should be tried, but I just have a hard time with the media version where this guy supposedly hunted this kid down and shot him just because he was black.

The whole "grillz" fad has been going on for years and it isn't done to look tough. They're pieces of metal with fake diamonds to make you look cool because rappers wear them. Stop acting like he was a gang member because of some fake teeth he wore in a photo.

[azxd]

I don't think this is true, AZ. I think this story is dominating right now because it's a high-profile, emotionally- (and racially-)charged story with elements of media manipulation and propaganda thrown in....red meat for discussion. Most of the time, this place is ALL about Ron Paul.You have been more active than I, around this place, but for the most part all I see is cop bashing whining and complaining but not that much support ... Grassroots being the exception.

I don't remember it being this way in 2007 :(
Yea, I lurked for a while.

[azxd]

We would also be better off without nasty little trolls that try to tell us what we should and shouldn't talk about on an internet forum.

If you don't want to play, then go away. If you do (and you've posted enough to make me think you do) then get off the sanctimonious train. Human nature is what it is, and this is what humans do on the internet. Live with it.LOL
Touched a sore spot, did I

[DerailingDaTrain]

What we know: Zimmerman was told to do nothing, agreed he would do nothing, and instead disobeyed the order and ended up shooting Trayvon. He should have done what the police told him and drove home and then talked to them later about the incident.

[azxd]

Why don't you answer that question for yourself?Well gee, I could just tell you that things are what they are, and I have little hope for this nation or it's people, but I'd just be repeating myself again.

[azxd]

What I gave you was a common sense reading of the facts. Jury instructions specifically admonish jurors not to leave their own experiences (i.e. common sense) outside the courtroom. And the only common sense reading of these facts is that Zimmerman found Trayvon after losing him.YES, because the hunter never becomes the hunted :D

Now what ?

[AuH20]

To push an agenda.

To encourage black victimization, instead of black responsibility.

It goes farther than that. They want you scared and docile. Be subservient to the state as well as the deluded mob. Don't take actions into your own hands. Be a helpless bystander.

And if you are vocally opposed to the debt ceiling, then you're racist, because programs will have to be cut. It's all about diluting the courage from the segment of the populace that refuses to obey the thought control via intimidation.

[specsaregood]

You're following perfectly.
The press made it a black/white thing almost instantly ... The question is ... WHY ?

Right, and my opinion is simply that he is white.

[azxd]

To push an agenda.

To encourage black victimization, instead of black responsibility.My opinion, also.

[azxd]

Blame the NBPP not us for that. They're trying to combat racism with more racism and even Black Panthers from the 70s don't agree with them. Also, everyone was complaining that Obama didn't comment on it, so he did. Just like people are complaining that RP won't comment on it.Do you know anyone who complained, or are you taking this to be true because some media minion/racial divide keeps me in groceries person, said this to be true ?

[RonPaulMall]

What we know: Zimmerman was told to do nothing, agreed he would do nothing, and instead disobeyed the order and ended up shooting Trayvon. He should have done what the police told him and drove home and then talked to them later about the incident.

A blatant lie. Either your a media troll, or worse, you bought the media's lies hook line and sinker and and are spreading them to others. Go read the 9/11 transcript. The dispatcher never told Zimmerman not to do anything. Zimmerman never agreed to not do anything. Stop believing the Liberal MSM lies and do a little basic research on your own. The facts are out there.

[DerailingDaTrain]

and? it wasnt for most of the country to decide her guilt, it was for her jury, which let her off. and, though i didnt pay attention that BS which was just a distraction for the public from more serious matters that are political in nature, the consensus from people whos opinions i trust seem to say that, more or less, it was not because she was innocent per say, but because the state really failed to prove its case. thats decided, constitutionally, she cant be tried again...


and what was the point in the above post when i already admitted to the SPD being a questionable policing agency?


this


being overseas, i only have heard of this case yesterday, and im still confused as to what exactly happened, as to what Zimmerman claims happened, as to what witnesses and Martins girlfiend claimed happened.

there seems to be a degree of complication to this story that most people rallying or posting on the internet (other websites) dont care to admit, they only seem to be saying its bad for older white men to kill young black kids with guns.

like i continue saying, i dont claim to know whose innocent or guilty, just that the public seems to have already made up their minds...

Yes I am reflecting my sub-conscious bias against white people including myself. :rolleyes: (not directed at you but the person you quoted)

[cajuncocoa]

What we know: Zimmerman was told to do nothing, agreed he would do nothing, and instead disobeyed the order and ended up shooting Trayvon. He should have done what the police told him and drove home and then talked to them later about the incident.It wasn't an "order" ... he was simply told "you don't need to do that" when asked if he was following TM. Yeah, he said "OK"...but again, we don't know what he might have seen (or thought he saw) after the 911 call was concluded.

[azxd]

Right, and my opinion is simply that he is white.My opinion is that he is a man ... Call me color-blind, blame it on my parents, blame it on my upbringing, it matters not ... I treat each person as an individual, but our media does not, and they have since relabeled this man as being a white hispanic.

It is an agenda, and those who fall for it can only blame self for the outcome.

Divide and conquer

[specsaregood]

My opinion is that he is a man ... Call me color-blind, blame it on my parents, blame it on my upbringing, it matters not ... I treat each person as an individual, but our media does not, and they have since relabeled this man as being a white hispanic.
It is an agenda, and those who fall for it can only blame self for the outcome.
Divide and conquer

oh, blah blah blah.
If somebody pointed him out to me and asked me if he was white, I'd answer yes. go take your bullshit elsewhere.

[DerailingDaTrain]

A blatant lie. Either your a media troll, or worse, you bought the media's lies hook line and sinker and and are spreading them to others. Go read the 9/11 transcript. The dispatcher never told Zimmerman not to do anything. Zimmerman never agreed to not do anything. Stop believing the Liberal MSM lies and do a little basic research on your own. The facts are out there.

I have been called a troll so much it doesn't really bother me anymore but people should know by now that I am not. If you don't believe me listen to it yourself:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/newsnation/46786334#46786334

Here's the transcript for that specific part:

>> are you following him?

>> yep.

>> we don't need you to do that.



So...stop spreading lies buddy. Fine, it wasn't an order, but they told him that he wasn't needed to follow the suspect and instead he decided to continue following him. It doesn't even matter what he saw. If he told the person on the phone that he saw him with a gun they would tell him not to do anything and wait for the police to get there

[azxd]

oh, blah blah blah.
If somebody pointed him out to me and asked me if he was white, I'd answer yes. go take your bullshit elsewhere.

Ron Paul supporters are so easily trolled.
You're the one falling for and perpetuating the labels ;)

[RonPaulMall]

Right, and my opinion is simply that he is white.

LOL. He's a mestizo- a mix between white and Indian. If Zimmerman were the one who was shot and some actual white person were the shooter, the media would be screaming to the high heavens about how a white person murdered a harmless, skittles carrying, Hispanic. White Hispanics/Latinos do exist (think Manu Ginobili, Diego Forlan, or nearly every top Brazilian Supermodel), but George Zimmerman for damn sure isn't one of them.

[Toureg89]

well, i can tell you from the pics ive seen, based on how he looks, lots of people would come up to him and assume he speaks spanish here in the greater orlando area. hes about the same skin tone as my dad, and hes darker than i am, and we both get mistaken for hispanics regularly.

[azxd]

I have been called a troll so much it doesn't really bother me much but people should know by now that I am not. If you don't believe me listen to it yourself:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/newsnation/46786334#46786334

Here's the transcript for that specific part:

>> are you following him?

>> yep.

>> we don't need you to do that.



So...stop spreading lies buddy.I know the English language is kind of stupid, but you're not making a good case for your position by going to a video, because they do not tell him not to do anything.


>> we don't need you to do that.

Is NOT ... DON'T do that ... Your words are a mdeia lie perpetuated.
Congratulations for spreading the BS.

OUT

[specsaregood]

You're the one falling for and perpetuating the labels ;)

please. im not judging him or saying anything except he looks like a white man. he is as white as me. i don't give a shit that he is white, it is just an observation.

[awake]

This incident has reached new heights, the violent left and violent right have co-oped this story for political reasons. Truth and justice, as in any war, is the first victim.

Where is the court, where is the evidence, where is the jury? Ahhh!!! Who needs it! Lets just use "democracy" to decide justice - it seems to solve everything else.

[DerailingDaTrain]

I know the English language is kind of stupid, but you're not making a good case for your position by going to a video, because they do not tell him not to do anything.

Is NOT ... DON'T do that ... Your words are a mdeia lie perpetuated.
Congratulations for spreading the BS.

OUT

So when people tell you that you're not needed for something you assume they mean something else?

[DerailingDaTrain]

I know the English language is kind of stupid, but you're not making a good case for your position by going to a video, because they do not tell him not to do anything.

Is NOT ... DON'T do that ... Your words are a mdeia lie perpetuated.
Congratulations for spreading the BS.

OUT

He was told we don't need you to do that which means DON'T DO IT because we DON'T NEED YOU TO

It's a simple as that. You can twist it all you want but these are the facts.

Edit: Your video of Gallagher will not change the facts and neither will your misunderstanding of the English language. I've already stated my position: Zimmerman was told not to continue following him and the police would take over and instead he decided to take matters into his own hands which ended with a dead teen.

[azxd]

So when people tell you that you're not needed for something you assume they mean something else?
I assume they are not telling me don't do something.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWN9rTc08GU

[RonPaulMall]

So when people tell you that you're not needed for something you assume they mean something else?

"Don't Do _____" : an instruction
"I Don't Want You To Do ______": an expression of preference, could possibly be interpreted as a request.
"I Don't Need You To Do ______" a statement relieving one from the obligation of doing something.

Thus concludes our English lesson for the day. By the way, even if the dispatcher had ordered Zimmerman not to do something (which he clearly didn't), the dispatcher would have had to have had legal authority to make such an order for it to have any relevance on the case. But we don't even have to get in to that because in this case it is an undisputed fact Zimmerman was never told not to do anything.

[DerailingDaTrain]

"Don't Do _____" : an instruction
"I Don't Want You To Do ______": an expression of preference, could possibly be interpreted as a request.
"I Don't Need You To Do ______" a statement relieving one from the obligation of doing something.

Thus concludes our English lesson for the day. By the way, even if the dispatcher had ordered Zimmerman not to do something (which he clearly didn't), the dispatcher would have had to have had legal authority to make such an order for it to have any relevance on the case. But we don't even have to get in to that because in this case it is an undisputed fact Zimmerman was never told not to do anything.

Like the obligation of following the criminal? Fail

He has committed a crime which stems from following Trayvon Martin even when he was instructed that they "didn't need him to do that". You can nitpick on the wording all you want. They didn't want him doing what the police are there to do.

[Brian4Liberty]

Compare and contrast:


Ignored 911 Call Turns Fatal
...
Police issued a statement Monday night that said the initial call was for trespassing and that because on-duty officers were being reconfigured for the protest; only emergency calls were to be handled.

Police said they did immediately responded to a 911 call about an assault in the same area that came later that evening, but it was too late.

Peter Cukor, 67, had been beaten to death with a flower pot. The suspect, 23-year-old Daniel Dewitt, was taken into custody and will be arraigned on Wednesday.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/02/21/ignored-911-call-turns-fatal-in-berkeley-police-busy-with-occupy-protest/

[cajuncocoa]

"Don't Do _____" : an instruction
"I Don't Want You To Do ______": an expression of preference, could possibly be interpreted as a request.
"I Don't Need You To Do ______" a statement relieving one from the obligation of doing something.

Thus concludes our English lesson for the day. By the way, even if the dispatcher had ordered Zimmerman not to do something (which he clearly didn't), the dispatcher would have had to have had legal authority to make such an order for it to have any relevance on the case. But we don't even have to get in to that because in this case it is an undisputed fact Zimmerman was never told not to do anything.Why is this so hard to understand? LOL

[DerailingDaTrain]

Compare and contrast:

Cases are not similar. Trayvon was being followed down the street. From the article it sounds like this was on the man's private property and in that case he would have been justified in using deadly force.

[Brian4Liberty]

Cases are not similar. Trayvon was being followed down the street. This was on the man's property.

I see you chose to contrast. ;)

[DerailingDaTrain]

I see you chose to contrast. ;)

lol and how does RPF's senior skeptic feel about this case?

Anyway...the whole case is incredibly fucked up and we won't know everything until the end but I stand by my statement that he should have listened to the person he was speaking with and not done anything at all. The police would have handled it just fine and probably better than Zimmerman did.

[RonPaulMall]

Like the obligation of following the criminal? Fail

He has committed a crime which stems from following Trayvon Martin even when he was instructed that they "didn't need him to do that". You can nitpick on the wording all you want. They didn't want him doing what the police are there to do.

So If a police dispatcher tells me "we don't need you to do something", I tell them I'm going to do, and I do it, I've committed a crime! Good Lord you people are insane.

Hypothetical: I observe a man in a suit on a ledge and call in a suicide attempt. I tell the dispatcher I'm going out on the ledge to talk him in. The dispatcher tells me, "we don't need you to do that." I say, ok, but think the guy is about to jump so I go out and talk him in to coming back in. According to you, I'm a criminal.

If you aren't intelligent enough to discern the precise meaning of words, if you lack the understanding of the law or the critical reasoning skills to negotiate a topic such as this, you are really better off just not participating.

[Brian4Liberty]

lol and how does RPF's senior skeptic feel about this case?

I'm skeptical. :toady:

As for the ramifications, this will only lead to more laws, more government, less freedom, and possibly some destruction and additional deaths. All of that on top of the fact that it is a wonderfully alluring and irresistible distraction from real campaign issues.

It's smelly! It's red! And no one can resist it!

1360

[Bosco Warden]

So If a police dispatcher tells me "we don't need you to do something", I tell them I'm going to do, and I do it, I've committed a crime! Good Lord you people are insane.

Hypothetical: I observe a man in a suit on a ledge and call in a suicide attempt. I tell the dispatcher I'm going out on the ledge to talk him in. The dispatcher tells me, "we don't need you to do that." I say, ok, but think the guy is about to jump so I go out and talk him in to coming back in. According to you, I'm a criminal.

If you aren't intelligent enough to discern the precise meaning of words, if you lack the understanding of the law or the critical reasoning skills to negotiate a topic such as this, you are really better off just not participating.

Zimmerman was attaxcked returning to his SUV, and that is per witness account. What part are you having trouble with?

[DerailingDaTrain]

So If a police dispatcher tells me "we don't need you to do something", I tell them I'm going to do, and I do it, I've committed a crime! Good Lord you people are insane.

Hypothetical: I observe a man in a suit on a ledge and call in a suicide attempt. I tell the dispatcher I'm going out on the ledge to talk him in. The dispatcher tells me, "we don't need you to do that." I say, ok, but think the guy is about to jump so I go out and talk him in to coming back in. According to you, I'm a criminal.

If you aren't intelligent enough to discern the precise meaning of words, if you lack the understanding of the law or the critical reasoning skills to negotiate a topic such as this, you are really better off just not participating.

That situation isn't even remotely similar and yes he should have done nothing because in the end the kid hadn't committed any crime and was unarmed. The police would have handled it much better than an armed community watch member.


Zimmerman was attaxcked returning to his SUV, and that is per witness account. What part are you having trouble with?

His story doesn't match the facts and a witness heard a young person screaming for help, a gunshot, then no screaming.

Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground

Also, according to the police: Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea.

"Carrying" means that he was holding them right? (Unless they mean they found them near his body). Do they mean to imply that he was beating Zimmerman with an can of iced tea in one hand a bag of skittles in the other?

[RonPaulMall]

That situation isn't even remotely similar and yes he should have done nothing because the kid was unarmed. The police would have handled it much better than an armed community watch member.

No, it isn't similar, but you've made the contention that a police dispatcher telling you he doesn't need you to do a particular thing makes it illegal for one to do so. That is your contention. So answer the question. Did the person in my hypothetical commit a crime or not. And if not, why? I'm not busting just busting your balls here. Thinking through questions like this will instruct you as to why your assertions are incorrect, and you thinking it through and understanding why you are wrong is a much better teaching tool than me just telling you why you are wrong. That's why most law professors utilize the Socratic Method almost exculsively.

[DerailingDaTrain]

No, it isn't similar, but you've made the contention that a police dispatcher telling you he doesn't need you to do a particular thing makes it illegal for one to do so. That is your contention. So answer the question. Did the person in my hypothetical commit a crime or not. And if not, why? I'm not busting just busting your balls here. Thinking through questions like this will instruct you as to why your assertions are incorrect, and you thinking it through and understanding why you are wrong is a much better teaching tool than me just telling you why you are wrong. That's why most law professors utilize the Socratic Method almost exculsively.

Saving the life of a person about to jump off of a building isn't the same as ending one of a unarmed innocent civilian and I'm sure that in today's legal system you could even end up getting charged for trying to talk the guy down from the building if he ended up jumping anyway.

[coastie]

No, it isn't similar, but you've made the contention that a police dispatcher telling you he doesn't need you to do a particular thing makes it illegal for one to do so. That is your contention. So answer the question. Did the person in my hypothetical commit a crime or not. And if not, why? I'm not busting just busting your balls here. Thinking through questions like this will instruct you as to why your assertions are incorrect, and you thinking it through and understanding why you are wrong is a much better teaching tool than me just telling you why you are wrong. That's why most law professors utilize the Socratic Method almost exculsively.

Regardless if they could have "legally" told him that or not-it was sound advice in this case, was it not?

Do you agree that something like this happening is EXACTLY why they told him they didn't need him to follow him?

[angelatc]

[QUOTE=DerailingDaTrain;4315403]I have been called a troll so much it doesn't really bother me anymore[/QUOTE

Everybody who joined after I did is a troll. Unless (as rare as it is) they agree with me.

[DerailingDaTrain]

[QUOTE=DerailingDaTrain;4315403]I have been called a troll so much it doesn't really bother me anymore[/QUOTE

Everybody who joined after I did is a troll. Unless (as rare as it is) they agree with me.

Hmmm...

I agree

[cajuncocoa]

I have been called a troll so much it doesn't really bother me anymore

Everybody who joined after I did is a troll. Unless (as rare as it is) they agree with me.LOL!!

[UtahApocalypse]

Zimmerman was attaxcked returning to his SUV, and that is per witness account. What part are you having trouble with?

wrong.

the witness saw Trayvon on top of him. He never saw the beginning of the incident.

[RonPaulMall]

Regardless if they could have "legally" told him that or not-it was sound advice in this case, was it not?

Do you agree that something like this happening is EXACTLY why they told him they didn't need him to follow him?

Dispatcher's always have to be careful about liability. Following a suspicious person can be dangerous, I agree. The dispatcher made clear the police didn't need him to follow the suspicious guy because he if Zimmerman ended up getting shot, he didn't want some plaintiff's attorney suing the department saying they encouraged Zimmerman to risk his life.

Following a suspicious person can be dangerous, yes. But it certainly isn't unlawful. And as it is not unlawful, what the dispatcher said, and what Zimmerman did up until the point Zimmerman and Martin finally came face to face, have nothing to do with whether a crime was committed by Zimmerman. This is an important step. I'm glad you guys are finally starting to grasp the essential facts. Unwise/Unsound/Unsafe does not equal Unlawful. The former may have relevance in a civil lawsuit, but they can never be used to justify criminal charges.

[RonPaulMall]

Saving the life of a person about to jump off of a building isn't the same as ending one of a unarmed innocent civilian and I'm sure that in today's legal system you could even end up getting charged for trying to talk the guy down from the building if he ended up jumping anyway.

Really? Tell me Mr. Legal Eagle, what criminal charges could result from encouraging someone to not jump off a building. And you entirely missed the point of my hypothetical. You made the assertion that doing something that a police dispatcher tells you he doesn't "need you to do" is criminal. Are you now backing away from that assertion? Either it is a crime or it is not. If it is, then the guy who saved the jumper's life is a criminal. If it is not, then stop using it as an argument in the Zimmerman case. I eagerly await your answer.

[CaptainAmerica]

Okay so apparently a previous event makes it okay for the crime watch captain to kill Trayvon when Trayvon was just walking around with no weapon and a bottle of tea and skittles in hand? Hah

[dannno]

And that's why we have these things called "trials". What you and every other Zimmerman defender keep glossing over is that the whole argument isn't over whether or not Zimmerman should be convicted, but whether or not he should have a trial.

Well I haven't seen anybody say he shouldn't go to trial, just a lot of hypothesizing on whether he should or will be convicted, whether Trayvon attacked him first or whether he "hunted down" and killed Trayvon just because "he was black". I see no reason why he shouldn't go to trial since there is a question over whether it was self defense.

I'm just concerned because the media seems to be slanting this story to create racial tension and some people here who normally don't seem to be buying the "official" story so to speak.

[webaform]

Ugh, I can't believe I got caught up in the madness of crowds. I'm not going to read or respond to anything about this case. It doesn't really concern me, and I don't know these guys. I'm glad that I got no response. I'd hate to perpetuate the madness.

[specsaregood]

Well I haven't seen anybody say he shouldn't go to trial, just a lot of hypothesizing on whether he should or will be convicted

You must be speaking of somewhere else then; because that has been the primary POV (that there should be a jury trial or at least be heard by a grand jury). in every single thread here on RPFs.

[dannno]

Okay so apparently a previous event makes it okay for the crime watch captain to kill Trayvon when Trayvon was just walking around with no weapon and a bottle of tea and skittles in hand? Hah

No, apparently Trayvon came up behind Zimmerman and said, "Hey, do you have a problem?!" and Zimmerman said, "No" and Trayvon said, "Well you do now!" and decked him, got him on the ground and started punching him in the head.

Fists are a deadly weapon, and apparently Trayvon was the first to break out a deadly weapon.

[dannno]

You must be speaking of somewhere else then; because that has been the primary POV (that there should be a jury trial or at least be heard by a grand jury). in every single thread here on RPFs.

Ya, re-read what I said, I think for the most part everybody here agrees there should be a trial.

[specsaregood]

Ya, re-read what I said, I think for the most part everybody here agrees there should be a trial.

Ok, i was a bit surprised. darn my weary eyes.

[RonPaulMall]

Ya, re-read what I said, I think for the most part everybody here agrees there should be a trial.

Actually, under Florida Law there should not be a trial. The confusions arises because a lot of people live in jurisdictions where all killings are illegal, and self defense is only an affirmative defense you can raise at trial. That is not the law in Florida. If the events occurred the way George Zimmerman described, then the shooting was a lawful killing. Probable Cause for an arrest does not exist.

[iGGz]

[[]]

[DerailingDaTrain]

Really? Tell me Mr. Legal Eagle, what criminal charges could result from encouraging someone to not jump off a building. And you entirely missed the point of my hypothetical. You made the assertion that doing something that a police dispatcher tells you he doesn't "need you to do" is criminal. Are you now backing away from that assertion? Either it is a crime or it is not. If it is, then the guy who saved the jumper's life is a criminal. If it is not, then stop using it as an argument in the Zimmerman case. I eagerly await your answer.

I tried to end the conversation and you bring it back up. Notice I said "In today's legal system he could probably be charged if he jumped". What I'm implying is that in today's fucked up legal system his family could sue you because you gave terrible advice and he jumped because you aren't an actual hostage negotiator and they told you to wait for an actual one. Zimmerman was told not to do something. I am saying that if they tell you not to then you shouldn't. I have never changed my opinion in this entire conversation.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Ya, re-read what I said, I think for the most part everybody here agrees there should be a trial.

He didn't attack him. You keep ignoring the evidence to support the other side of this argument like how the police didn't even want to hear how a woman witnessed Zimmerman pinning Trayvon to the ground with his knees on his arms and a young voice crying for help. How about how he was on the phone with his girlfriend and said that someone was following him and his girlfriend heard him ask "Why are you following me?" The evidence doesn't match what Zimmerman is saying. At least acknowledge what the other witnesses have said.

[Butchie]

He's not assuming anything. You are. He's going from the known fact which are the height and weight of both parties. How do you know Zimmerman was completely un-athletic? How do you know Trayvon was "in shape"? Because he wasn't fat? Zimmerman apparently was confident enough in his own physical prowess to approach this "scary athletic kid possibly used to fighting" in the first place. That...or he was confident in his ability to shoot to kill.

Edit: And it was your side that brought up the MMA argument.

My side? I thought I was quite clear I wasn't taking a side, maybe read it again.

[Butchie]

oh, blah blah blah.
If somebody pointed him out to me and asked me if he was white, I'd answer yes. go take your bullshit elsewhere.

He's not white, this has been explained plenty of times, how about you think on this: If Zimmerman were a NHL player they'd be hailing him as a hero for being the first professional hispanic hockey player, but since he did something shameful, he's white. The media will go either way with it depending on what will gain them the most headlines.

[specsaregood]

He's not white, this has been explained plenty of times, how about you think on this: If Zimmerman were a NHL player they'd be hailing him as a hero for being the first pro hispanic hockey player, but since he did something shameful, he's white. The media will go either way with it depending on what will gain them the most headlines.

sure looks white to me, you are welcome to your opinion. i dont really care what others would call him if he was magically in the nhl. if he was walking down the street a fair number of people would consider him white.

btw: there have already been hispanic nhl players, black players too.

[Brian4Liberty]

Wow, still going strong here. The Police are coming out with some interesting information, such as the officers at the scene wanted to press charges on George, but the DA said they have no case. Who knows?



Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground

Now there's a narrative. The over 6 foot tall young man now sounds like a puppy being strangled and shot?

That's too far fetched. Let's try to come back to a more reasonable conspiracy theory. Let's say George jumped out of his car, chased the kid into the grassy area, and shot him dead after a brief verbal confrontation. Then George hit himself in the nose and the back of the head and rolled around on the grass to be more convincing before the Police arrived. Case closed. "If the grass does not fit, we must convict."

I don't believe anything from anyone at this point, but I have a good idea how it will all end.

[kylejack]

He's not white, this has been explained plenty of times, how about you think on this: If Zimmerman were a NHL player they'd be hailing him as a hero for being the first professional hispanic hockey player, but since he did something shameful, he's white. The media will go either way with it depending on what will gain them the most headlines.
Hispanic is an ethnicity or a nationality. There are Black Hispanics, White Hispanics, even Asian Hispanics, believe it or not. Hispanic simply means the person is from a Spanish-speaking country, or their ancestors are.

[RonPaulMall]

Hispanic is an ethnicity or a nationality. There are Black Hispanics, White Hispanics, even Asian Hispanics, believe it or not. Hispanic simply means the person is from a Spanish-speaking country, or their ancestors are.

True enough, but government and the media has made a concerted effort over the past two decades to deny this reality and create a new "racial" group called Hispanic. So for them to finally recognize the white Hispanic at this particular point time is rich. But for them to recognize it as this point in time about a guy who clearly not a white Hispanic (Zimmerman is Mestizo, like the vast majority of American Hispanics) identifies them as the corrupt, lying, instruments of the Big Government Socialism than they are.

[coastie]

Dispatcher's always have to be careful about liability. Following a suspicious person can be dangerous, I agree. The dispatcher made clear the police didn't need him to follow the suspicious guy because he if Zimmerman ended up getting shot, he didn't want some plaintiff's attorney suing the department saying they encouraged Zimmerman to risk his life.

But Zimmerman wasn't shot - Martin was. The door swings both ways here, which is why the dispatcher told him not follow him first and foremost, because it is sound advice and common sense, and is the first thing any thinking human being would tell another in the situation to do. We agree on this. It is not, however, the dispatcher's position (or concern for that matter), of whether or not an attorney is going to come through after the fact, that is a ridiculous assertion to make.

It is a fact that their are armed citizens out there every bit as much as it is a fact that their are dangerous people that could have shot Zimmerman in this situation Again, this standard applies both ways, you are only applying it to Zimmerman here.



Following a suspicious person can be dangerous, yes.

Agreed. Which is why they advised him not to do it.


But it certainly isn't unlawful.

Nobody is questioning whether or not it was lawful. YOU keep saying this. Are you seriously suggesting his defense is going to challenge whether or not the dispatchers advise was binding or not, or that(even more laughable)that the prosecution would even try to claim the dispatcher's advise was legally binding? How do you not see how ridiculous this sounds?


And as it is not unlawful, what the dispatcher said, and what Zimmerman did up until the point Zimmerman and Martin finally came face to face, have nothing to do with whether a crime was committed by Zimmerman.

It was sound advise in the interest of BOTH parties involved as I pointed out earlier, and that a reasonable person would have heeded that advise, thus avoiding either one of them being hurt. This most certainly has something to do with whether or not Zimmerman was criminally culpable in Martin's death, and could be the prosecution's angle in this in a trial.





This is an important step. I'm glad you guys are finally starting to grasp the essential facts. Unwise/Unsound/Unsafe does not equal Unlawful. The former may have relevance in a civil lawsuit, but they can never be used to justify criminal charges.


:rolleyes: Unwise/Unsound/Unsafe can equal a manslaughter charge at minimum if Zimmerman continued to follow Martin as appears to be the case.

Nobody agreed with you, I've had a handle on the facts since the beginning, as I've only been questioning the events up to the point Zimmerman got out of his car, because THAT is where Zimmerman's actions are in question with regard to self-defense, NOT whether or not the dispatchers advise was legally binding, it is only you that continuously brings up this non-point, as everyone agrees it isn't legally binding.

Zimmerman was armed, and in no danger from Martin at this point. Things escalated because he got out of his vehicle and followed him. This is a different story for Martin, who also should have been protected by the very same standard you applied to Zimmerman. That is what is at issue here.

[RonPaulMall]

Zimmerman was armed, and in no danger from Martin at this point. Things escalated because he got out of his vehicle and followed him. This is a different story for Martin, who also should have been protected by the very same standard you applied to Zimmerman. That is what is at issue here.

You don't seem to understand the law in this case. Nothing matters up until the point somebody attacked somebody else. Who got out of the car, Zimmerman disregarding the dispatcher's advice, Martin disregarding his girlfriend's advice. None of that matters. Both men were behaving in a perfectly lawful manner up until the point when they finally came face to face and a fight broke out. Who started that fight determines whether the shooting of Martin was a crime or a lawful killing. That's why I harp on whether what Zimmerman did was unlawful or unwise. Unlike you, I actually read the Chapter in the Florida Code dealing with Justifiable Force. I'm not just talking out my ass.



Unwise/Unsound/Unsafe can equal a manslaughter charge at minimum if Zimmerman continued to follow Martin as appears to be the case.

No. It can't. I've read the actual law, cited it numerous times in this thread, and challenged you and others to point to the statute Zimmerman supposedly violated, which of course you never do. Nothing he did prior to them coming face to face was a violation of Florida Criminal Code. If it is not a violation, it is not unlawful. If it is not unlawful, it has no bearing on whether force was justified.

If you want to make a legal case against Zimmerman rather than just an argument for a lynching, it should go something like this:

-When Zimmerman approached Martin, he pulled his gun and pointed it at him. That would constitute assault and constitute an unlawful act.
-When Zimmerman approached Martin, he says something like, "I'm gonna beat your ass, boy." This too would be assault.
-When Zimmerman approached Martin he grabbed him. This would be battery.
-The story is like Zimmerman said, but after Martin beat him, Martin got up and ran away. While he was running away, Zimmerman shoots. Under this scenario, Zimmerman can no longer claim a fear of great bodily harm and loses the right to use force.

This are all valid scenarios one could conjure up if you want to justify Zimmerman being arrested. The problem is there isn't a shred of evidence for them, and given the totality of what we know, they just don't have the ring of truth. Zimmerman is free because his story sounds credible and the evidence supports it. And if his story is true, no crime was committed under Florida Law. For a crime to have occurred, something like one of the scenarios I described would have to be proven. For an arrest to occur, the police or prosecutor needs to believe one of those scenarios occurred. Otherwise they'd be engaged in an unlawful arrest and malicious prosecution.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Wow, still going strong here. The Police are coming out with some interesting information, such as the officers at the scene wanted to press charges on George, but the DA said they have no case. Who knows?



Now there's a narrative. The over 6 foot tall young man now sounds like a puppy being strangled and shot?

That's too far fetched. Let's try to come back to a more reasonable conspiracy theory. Let's say George jumped out of his car, chased the kid into the grassy area, and shot him dead after a brief verbal confrontation. Then George hit himself in the nose and the back of the head and rolled around on the grass to be more convincing before the Police arrived. Case closed. "If the grass does not fit, we must convict."

I don't believe anything from anyone at this point, but I have a good idea how it will all end.

If anything he and the kid got into an argument over why he was following him when he got out of his truck, then at that point Trayvon either saw him pull a gun and attacked him or attacked him without provocation, Zimmerman was struck in the nose, fell to the ground striking his head on the pavement,angry and wanting to defend himself against his assailant he fired the gun and shot Trayvon in the chest where he fell backwards landing face down. Zimmerman's story about being attacked from behind just doesn't add up with all the evidence.