How GOP got Catholicized

[AngryCanadian]

How GOP got Catholicized
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120322100929-catholics-santorum-story-top.jpg



http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/23/opinion/stanley-conservatives-catholics/index.html?hpt=hp_bn6


He says Catholics and Catholic theology now play a key role in the GOP


The GOP is undergoing a quiet process of Catholicization. It's one of the reasons why this year's race has focused so much on social issues -- and sex.


Republican outreach to Catholics began in the early 1970s, when Richard Nixon tried to entice blue-collar "white ethnics" to the GOP by taking a tough stand on abortion. Nixon told members of his staff he was tempted to convert to Catholicism himself, but was worried it would be seen as cheap politics: "They would say there goes Tricky Dick Nixon trying to win the Catholic vote. ..."


Well there you have it slowly each passing day, the Catholicization of the GOP will be finalized once it does it will be more harder for a none anti war Candidate to get into the race. Since breaking into the Just War theory will be a bit harder.


Hardly i am not surprised by this story and yes its true.
And get this line.


Falwell and Robertson were fans of Pope John Paul II and his resilient anti-communism.
I would imagine Falwell and Robertson were pro NATO aswell.


Lol at the comment in the comment section and its so true.

It makes me sick, positively, to see nuns listening to Santorum's garbage.

Honestly waking up people from there sleep has just got more harder.
I feel so sorry for the Nuns buying into Santorum garbage.

So you think 2016 and 2020 will be hopeless?

[alucard13mmfmj]

Yep yep yep... religion is being used to screw things up. *sigh*

[libertygrl]

Yes, just another politician pandering to a religious group. Bush did the same with the evangelicals.

[Aratus]

admittedly 100 years ago the GOP power elite was 80% eastern seaboard WASP!
truly now we have seen the GOP after Richard M. Nixon tilt southern and catholic.

[Sola_Fide]

The Conservative movement has been a Roman Catholic movement for decades:

Conservatism: An Autopsy
by John Robbins
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=115

[Sola_Fide]

Read my link^^^

Conservatism is not Christian.

[madengr]

I thought Catholicism was anti-war. Santorum sure is not.

[Sola_Fide]

admittedly 100 years ago the GOP power elite was 80% eastern seaboard WASP!
truly now we have seen the GOP after Richard M. Nixon tilt southern and catholic.

Yes, you're right.

[BlackTerrel]

This strikes me as an incredibly bigoted and poorly thought out article.

I wonder if they would write such things about other religious groups.

[Sola_Fide]

I would imagine Falwell and Robertson were pro NATO aswell.


Arminians have a basically Roman Catholic outlook on things....soteriologically, politically, teleologically, etc.

Falwell especially was one of the most anti-Calvinist figures in recent times. He said Calvinism was a heresy:)

You can trace a lot of the anti-muslim hysteria, and anti-Calvinist hysteria from Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University/Bob Jones University.

These are wrinkles in the American political dynamic that most people don't realize, but they are there.

[ican'tvote]

Here's one Catholic for Ron Paul!
Honestly I'm ashamed of my fellow Catholics.

[BlackTerrel]

I thought Catholicism was anti-war. Santorum sure is not.

The Catholic Church opposed the war.

[Voluntary Man]

The minister at the Baptist church my wife occasionally takes the children to was pimping heavily for Saton rum, recently, during his sermon. Keep in mind that this is a preacher who is known, on occasion, to go off on tirades about how "Catholics aren't really Christians" and "Catholicism is a demonic cult." On the way out of Church, my wife asked the minister if he was aware that Saton rum is a Catholic. He was not aware. His jaw dropped. My wife just grinned and walked away.

I wonder how common this is, evangelicals getting all frothy for Saton, without even a clue?

[cjm]

hmm, so Catholics are against liberty? is that what I'm supposed to get from this?

https://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/B505.jpg

I got a different picture when I read this book (https://mises.org/store/Product2.aspx?ProductId=199).

Maybe some Catholics oppose liberty and some Catholics support it? Maybe it's wrong to group people into classes and make assumptions about them?

[cjm]

Read my link^^^

I read it down to this:


Natural law is, of course, antithetical to Christianity. It is a form of creature worship, for the creature-deified as Nature-is studied in order to “discover,” venerate, and obey her laws, while the doctrine and laws of God revealed in Scripture are ignored or rejected.

This is a very poor summary of Natural Law theory.

[kahless]

Well there you have it slowly each passing day, the Catholicization of the GOP will be finalized once it does it will be more harder for a none anti war Candidate to get into the race.

Have an issue with Catholics? Why not do a little research before posting such a misinformed statement. If Bush I and II listened to the Pope John Paul's direct appeals neither Iraq war would have been fought. Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope, also argued that “reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist".

[Sola_Fide]

I read it down to this:



This is a very poor summary of Natural Law theory.

If you want a detailed explanation of why natural law is irrational and illogical, I can link you to many places. Obviously this paper wasn't a detailed exposition. But natural law is not Christian and not rational. It's very much a wax nose that can be used to defend any and every position.

[BlackTerrel]

hmm, so Catholics are against liberty? is that what I'm supposed to get from this?

https://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/B505.jpg

I got a different picture when I read this book (https://mises.org/store/Product2.aspx?ProductId=199).

Maybe some Catholics oppose liberty and some Catholics support it? Maybe it's wrong to group people into classes and make assumptions about them?

Of course it is. Catholics are like anyone else - some are good, some are bad - most are in the middle.

However somehow it is ok to be collectivist against certain groups and not ok to be collectivist about other groups.

[moderate libertarian]

This happened due to Baptist/SBC's support for Iraq war?

[Sola_Fide]

This happened due to Baptist/SBC's support for Iraq war?

There are good parts and bad parts of the Southern Baptist convention. The less influential Calvinistic Baptists are more anti-war, sound money, get the government out guys, whereas the more influential Arminian faction is more big-government Santorum conservative intervention types.

Again, this is my own opinion from observing it for many years.

[erowe1]

There's some irony to this. For the past 30-40 years evangelicalism has been very politically focused. And in America they far outnumber Catholics (I think). But in terms of getting people into high places, evangelicals don't have much to show for it. I see American evangelicalism as the hare that sprints this way and that and never stays on the same trajectory for very long, and Roman Catholicism as the tortoise that slowly keeps plodding in the same direction without wavering.

The Supreme Court illustrates this. All 4 conservative justices are Catholics. They all entered their positions with lifetimes of disciplined preparation behind them. The one evangelical who was nominated to the bench, Harriet Meiers, was an intellectual laughing stock and didn't make the cut.

[erowe1]

The Catholic Church opposed the war.

I don't think that's exactly correct. Pope John Paul 2 definitely did. But that wasn't an official Church position.

[heavenlyboy34]

Read my link^^^

Conservatism is not Christian.
I agree with it. However, they use the word "liberal" without defining it, which is sad. Classical liberals were almost all Christian. (even most of the natural lawyers)

[VoluntaryAmerican]

I was baptized Catholic, attended Catholic school.

I'm an atheist. Most Catholics I know don't attend church or are atheists themselves.

[ghengis86]

Opus Dei, bitchez. Not just GOP, but GOV.

[cajuncocoa]

Another church-going Catholic for Ron Paul here.

[cajuncocoa]

Catholics are drifting to the GOP in this election due to the fact that Obamacare mandates birth control and abortion.

[Philhelm]

I can't help but think of Herman Cain's creepy grin (you know the one...someone post it please), followed by Nun! Nun! Nun!

Seriously though, I find it silly that anyone could believe that the GOP is being "Catholicized," especially considering that many American Protestants don't even view Catholics as Christian (wtf?). On the other hand, maybe this means that the GOP is getting the "Hispanic vote?"

[erowe1]

I find it silly that anyone could believe that the GOP is being "Catholicized," especially considering that many American Protestants don't even view Catholics as Christian (wtf?).

I don't see how those two points have anything to do with one another. Are you implying that those "many" who don't consider Catholics Christian control the GOP?

[jmdrake]

Read my link^^^

Conservatism is not Christian.

From your link:

. For 50 years Christians in America have been bamboozled by Romanists like Patrick Buchanan, William Bennett, and William F. Buckley, Jr., into suppor-ting their Antichristian programs, candidates, and theol-ogies.

So what do you have against Pat Buchanan? He certainly has not been pushing for interventionism. I'm not a fan of Catholicism, but this seems like quite a wide brush.

[Sola_Fide]

From your link:

. For 50 years Christians in America have been bamboozled by Romanists like Patrick Buchanan, William Bennett, and William F. Buckley, Jr., into suppor-ting their Antichristian programs, candidates, and theol-ogies.

So what do you have against Pat Buchanan? He certainly has not been pushing for interventionism. I'm not a fan of Catholicism, but this seems like quite a wide brush.

The article is not only about interventionism. It is about natural law, free will, and other various anti-Christian ideas.


Conservatives and Free Will

The second respect in which conservatives differ from Christians in the field of ethics is on the question of free will.A prominent contemporary conservative has stated the ubiquitous conservative argument this way: “Ultimately, the author of human liberty is almighty God, who endows each human being with free will. Every human being since Adam has been free to obey the laws of God, or to disobey themÖ. God Himself does not constrain our wills: In His infinite majesty, He respects the choices made by men.” (21) Mrs. George (Laura) Bush also denied the sovereignty of God in a recent televised interview with Timothy Russert.

Usually this Antichristian idea is elaborated upon by men such as Frank Meyer-a longtime editor of National Review-to prove that political freedom is essential to allow personal virtue to emerge and flourish. The enor-mous confusion in such an argument is not dispelled but only camouflaged by invoking the name of God and his infinite majesty. Free will and Christianity are antithetical. Precisely because God is omnipotent, he controls our wills. It is logically absurd and contrary to Scripture to believe otherwise; it is Antichristian to believeotherwise. Anyone who doubts this should study the Bible-not consult it as a religious Bartlett’s-and learn what Christianity is.

[Sola_Fide]

I agree with it. However, they use the word "liberal" without defining it, which is sad. Classical liberals were almost all Christian. (even most of the natural lawyers)

Well, he was writing this mainly to church-going Calvinists who were interested in theology and political theory in the 90's, so I cut him some slack for not using the absolutely correct 19th century definition. But, yeah you're right.

[cajuncocoa]

I can't help but think of Herman Cain's creepy grin (you know the one...someone post it please), http://www.damndirtyrino.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CainGrin.jpg

[Sola_Fide]

I was baptized Catholic, attended Catholic school.

I'm an atheist. Most Catholics I know don't attend church or are atheists themselves.

Yes, that is my observation as well. And this is precisely one of the critiques of Roman Catholicism from the Calvinistic point of view--that its man-centered theology is an impetus for a completly man-centered view of everything. Once the unbiblical views that man has free will, is essentially good, and has a measure of sovereignty are accepted, the step to the ultimate deification of man-atheism-becomes a very small step philosophically.

And this also has implications in political theory as well, because the idea of the sovereign will and the sovereign man (by that I mean sovereign apart from God) lends itself to statism.

[jmdrake]

The article is not only about interventionism. It is about natural law, free will, and other various anti-Christian ideas.

Ummm....okay. But the point that you made is that this was somehow all tied into interventionism. There are libertarians who are atheists. The idea that free will is somehow "anti Christian" is laughable in itself, but that still doesn't take you to the further leap that free will = war mongering anti Islamist. In other words, what is the actual connection from your article to what is wrong with the GOP?

Speaking of freedom and the human intellect, tell me what you think of this quote. Compatible with Christianity as you understand it, or not?

To embrace the idea of liberty is not a natural condition of mankind. In fact we are disposed to tolerate far more impositions on liberty than we should. To love liberty requires an act of the intellect, I believe. It involves coming to understand how all things we love in this world are given to us under conditions of liberty.

[jmdrake]

Yes, that is my observation as well. And this is precisely one of the critiques of Roman Catholicism from the Calvinistic point of view--that its man-centered theology is an impetus for a completly man-centered view of everything. Once the unbiblical views that man has free will, is essentially good, and has a measure of sovereignty are accepted, the step to the ultimate deification of man-atheism-becomes a very small step philosophically.

And this also has implications in political theory as well, because the idea of the sovereign will and the sovereign man (by that I mean sovereign apart from God) lends itself to statism.

And the reason this atheist pastor of a Dutch reformed church is allowed to keep his position is...?

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-church-retains-atheist-preacher

[Sola_Fide]

And the reason this atheist pastor of a Dutch reformed church is allowed to keep his position is...?

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-church-retains-atheist-preacher

What did you do? Just Google "calvinist" and "atheist"?
From your link:


The regional church assembly in the southwestern town of Zierikzee decided that preacher Klaas Hendrikse's views do not fundamentally differ from those of other liberal theologians in the Protestant Church. A clerical court case against Mr Hendrikse has been suspended. The decision was opposed by about a quarter of the representatives at the regional meeting.

Mr Hendrikse was subjected to an inquiry following the publicaton of his book, Believing in a God who does not exist. In it, Mr Hendrikse explains that he does not believe in a personal God, or in his words, "To me God is not a being, but a word for what can occur between people." He has since been loosely referred to as "the atheist preacher", although he has not declared himself a total non-believer.

So....what is "reformed" about this man? He denies that God is a being and he agrees with other "liberal theologians". Well, that is not Reformed. Reformed means you adhere to the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession or the Belgic Confession, etc. Also, Europe is a waste-land of neo-orthodoxy and post-modernism. The Word of God is not preached in very many places there sadly. Dialecticism has had its way for a long time there.

[jmdrake]

What did you do? Just Google "calvinist" and "atheist"?
From your link:



So....what is "reformed" about this man? He denies that God is a being and he agrees with other "liberal theologians". Well, that is not Reformed. Reformed means you adhere to the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession or the Belgic Confession, etc. Also, Europe is a waste-land of neo-orthodoxy and post-modernism. The Word of God is not preached in very many places there sadly. Dialecticism has had its way for a ling time there.

Your point is? He's still a member of the Dutch reformed church. Catholics who become atheists are no longer really following Catholic doctrine either. This member of a Calvinist denomination not only became an atheist but he was allowed to keep his pulpit.

[jmdrake]

Ummm....okay. But the point that you made is that this was somehow all tied into interventionism. There are libertarians who are atheists. The idea that free will is somehow "anti Christian" is laughable in itself, but that still doesn't take you to the further leap that free will = war mongering anti Islamist. In other words, what is the actual connection from your article to what is wrong with the GOP?

Speaking of freedom and the human intellect, tell me what you think of this quote. Compatible with Christianity as you understand it, or not?

To embrace the idea of liberty is not a natural condition of mankind. In fact we are disposed to tolerate far more impositions on liberty than we should. To love liberty requires an act of the intellect, I believe. It involves coming to understand how all things we love in this world are given to us under conditions of liberty.

Still waiting for an answer to the above AquaBuddha.

[Sola_Fide]

Your point is? He's still a member of the Dutch reformed church. Catholics who become atheists are no longer really following Catholic doctrine either. This member of a Calvinist denomination not only became an atheist but he was allowed to keep his pulpit.

What is your point though? Do you know what neo-orthodoxy is and you know the state of MOST churches in Europe (those who call themselves "reformed" or otherwise)? Neo-orthodoxy is where we get the foundations for such liberalism as the Jesus Seminar and things like that. It's basically atheism with religious sounding words. The meaning and content of Christianity has been completely gutted.

Reformed is not a church. "Reformed" is an assent to certain propositions. If you do not assent to those propositions, you are not "Reformed". Simple as that.

[jmdrake]

What is your point though? Do you know what neo-orthodoxy is and you know the state of MOST churches in Europe (those who call themselves "reformed" or otherwise)? Neo-orthodoxy is where we get the foundations for such liberalism as the Jesus Seminar and things like that. It's basically atheism with religious sounding words. The meaning and content of Christianity has been completely gutted.

Reformed is not a church. "Reformed" is an assent to certain propositions. If you do not assent to those propositions, you are not "Reformed". Simple as that.

And if you quit being an Catholic and become an atheist you are no longer a Catholic! Goodness, do I have to spell it out for you? You were making a point about people leaving the Catholic church and becoming an atheist. Well here is someone staying in the Dutch reformed church and becoming an atheist. Maybe the entire Dutch Reformed Church is no longer actually "reformed". So? It just shows that Calvin's teachings weren't even able to hold together the church he helped form or "reform" or whatever. Get the plank out of your own eye.

[jmdrake]

Ummm....okay. But the point that you made is that this was somehow all tied into interventionism. There are libertarians who are atheists. The idea that free will is somehow "anti Christian" is laughable in itself, but that still doesn't take you to the further leap that free will = war mongering anti Islamist. In other words, what is the actual connection from your article to what is wrong with the GOP?

Speaking of freedom and the human intellect, tell me what you think of this quote. Compatible with Christianity as you understand it, or not?

To embrace the idea of liberty is not a natural condition of mankind. In fact we are disposed to tolerate far more impositions on liberty than we should. To love liberty requires an act of the intellect, I believe. It involves coming to understand how all things we love in this world are given to us under conditions of liberty.

I see you're not even going to attempt to answer this.

[cindy25]

what about Hispanics? they are overwhelmingly Catholic, and yet they vote for the Dems

[PierzStyx]

Yep yep yep... religion is being used to screw things up. *sigh*


More like politicians are using the language of people's faith to blind them to how they are being robbed of their liberty.

[PierzStyx]

And if you quit being an Catholic and become an atheist you are no longer a Catholic! Goodness, do I have to spell it out for you? You were making a point about people leaving the Catholic church and becoming an atheist. Well here is someone staying in the Dutch reformed church and becoming an atheist. Maybe the entire Dutch Reformed Church is no longer actually "reformed". So? It just shows that Calvin's teachings weren't even able to hold together the church he helped form or "reform" or whatever. Get the plank out of your own eye.

Its not surprising. Calvin was another man who used religion as a way to gain and abuse power over people. He mingled the grossest philosophies of men with the language of the scriptures and called it truth. Funny how all that truth was just about him getting and maintaining positions of power.

[PierzStyx]

what about Hispanics? they are overwhelmingly Catholic, and yet they vote for the Dems

Because of immigration. But in places like Utah where immigration has been taken off the table as much as possible (thanks to the Utah Compact) they have begun leaning more Republican on a local level.

[Sola_Fide]

Its not surprising. Calvin was another man who used religion as a way to gain and abuse power over people. He mingled the grossest philosophies of men with the language of the scriptures and called it truth. Funny how all that truth was just about him getting and maintaining positions of power.

Calvin didn't have political "power". I'm not the biggest fan of Calvin either, but it angers me when people are so clueless about history that they say things like this. For instance, Calvin wasn't even a citizen of Geneva when Servetus was executed. Also, Rome burned Servetus in effigy. They wanted to get to him first, but couldn't.

[Brian4Liberty]

Very interesting thread.

It should be obvious, but to point it out once again, an elite group of Catholics with an agenda have no relation whatsoever to the average Catholic. This applies to any another other group where an elite of that group pushes an agenda, without the consent or even the knowledge of the average member of that group.

[Brian4Liberty]

So what do these people all have in common besides Catholicism?

Hannity, Gingrich, Peter King, Santorum, Jeb Bush, Bill O'Reilly, Brian Williams, Chris Matthews.

Perhaps open borders? Globalism? Socialism?

[Southron]

There's some irony to this. For the past 30-40 years evangelicalism has been very politically focused. And in America they far outnumber Catholics (I think). But in terms of getting people into high places, evangelicals don't have much to show for it. I see American evangelicalism as the hare that sprints this way and that and never stays on the same trajectory for very long, and Roman Catholicism as the tortoise that slowly keeps plodding in the same direction without wavering.

The Supreme Court illustrates this. All 4 conservative justices are Catholics. They all entered their positions with lifetimes of disciplined preparation behind them. The one evangelical who was nominated to the bench, Harriet Meiers, was an intellectual laughing stock and didn't make the cut.

I wonder if this is a reflexion of the dispensational pre mil theology of most evangelicals.

[Sola_Fide]

I wonder if this is a reflexion of the dispensational pre mil theology of most evangelicals.

It could be, but then again, all I see from postmillennial eschatologies are their vision for tyranny and "Christian political rule". That to me is nuts.

I think the more proper explanation is that the Biblical worldview is individualistic and not concerned with political action. The Biblical worldview has a kingdom that is not if this world, and it's strivings are for that world, not this one.

[idiom]

It could be, but then again, all I see from postmillennial eschatologies are their vision for tyranny and "Christian political rule". That to me is nuts.

I think the more proper explanation is that the Biblical worldview is individualistic and not concerned with political action. The Biblical worldview has a kingdom that is not if this world, and it's strivings are for that world, not this one.

Also its like herding cats. Same reason libertarians are awful at political action. Most don't believe in it and the ones that do can't agree on a single thing.