Meanwhile, in Sweden: the cashless society is just about in place.

[Anti Federalist]

Does anybody need to know why this is such a bad idea?

And of course, it's for our safety.



Sweden moving towards cashless economy

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57399610/sweden-moving-towards-cashless-economy/

(AP) STOCKHOLM - Sweden was the first European country to introduce bank notes in 1661. Now it's come farther than most on the path toward getting rid of them.

"I can't see why we should be printing bank notes at all anymore," says Bjoern Ulvaeus, former member of 1970's pop group ABBA, and a vocal proponent for a world without cash.

The contours of such a society are starting to take shape in this high-tech nation, frustrating those who prefer coins and bills over digital money.

In most Swedish cities, public buses don't accept cash; tickets are prepaid or purchased with a cell phone text message. A small but growing number of businesses only take cards, and some bank offices — which make money on electronic transactions — have stopped handling cash altogether.

"There are towns where it isn't at all possible anymore to enter a bank and use cash," complains Curt Persson, chairman of Sweden's National Pensioners' Organization.

He says that's a problem for elderly people in rural areas who don't have credit cards or don't know how to use them to withdraw cash.

The decline of cash is noticeable even in houses of worship, like the Carl Gustaf Church in Karlshamn, southern Sweden, where Vicar Johan Tyrberg recently installed a card reader to make it easier for worshippers to make offerings.

"People came up to me several times and said they didn't have cash but would still like to donate money," Tyrberg says.

Bills and coins represent only 3 percent of Sweden's economy, compared to an average of 9 percent in the eurozone and 7 percent in the U.S., according to the Bank for International Settlements, an umbrella organization for the world's central banks.

Three percent is still too much if you ask Ulvaeus. A cashless society may seem like an odd cause for someone who made a fortune on "Money, Money, Money" and other ABBA hits, but for Ulvaeus it's a matter of security.

After his son was robbed for the third time he started advocating a faster transition to a fully digital economy, if only to make life harder for thieves.

"If there were no cash, what would they do?" says Ulvaeus, 66.

The Swedish Bankers' Association says the shrinkage of the cash economy is already making an impact in crime statistics.

The number of bank robberies in Sweden plunged from 110 in 2008 to 16 in 2011 — the lowest level since it started keeping records 30 years ago. It says robberies of security transports are also down.

"Less cash in circulation makes things safer, both for the staff that handle cash, but also of course for the public," says Par Karlsson, a security expert at the organization.

The prevalence of electronic transactions — and the digital trail they generate — also helps explain why Sweden has less of a problem with graft than countries with a stronger cash culture, such as Italy or Greece, says economics professor Friedrich Schneider of the Johannes Kepler University in Austria.

"If people use more cards, they are less involved in shadow economy activities," says Schneider, an expert on underground economies.

In Italy — where cash has been a common means of avoiding value-added tax and hiding profits from the taxman — Prime Minister Mario Monti in December put forward measures to limit cash transactions to payments under euro1,000 ($1,300), down from euro2,500 before.

The flip side is the risk of cybercrimes. According to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention the number of computerized fraud cases, including skimming, surged to nearly 20,000 in 2011 from 3,304 in 2000.

Oscar Swartz, the founder of Sweden's first Internet provider, Banhof, says a digital economy also raises privacy issues because of the electronic trail of transactions. He supports the idea of phasing out cash, but says other anonymous payment methods need to be introduced instead.

"One should be able to send money and donate money to different organizations without being traced every time," he says.

It's no surprise that Sweden and other Nordic countries are at the forefront of this development, given their emphasis on technology and innovation.

For the second year in a row, Sweden ranked first in the Global Information Technology Report released at the World Economic Forum in January. The Economist Intelligence Unit also put Sweden top of its latest digital economy rankings, in 2010. Both rankings measure how far countries have come in integrating information and communication technologies in their economies.

Internet startups in Sweden and elsewhere are now hard at work developing payment and banking services for smartphones.

Swedish company iZettel has developed a device for small traders, similar to Square in the U.S., that plugs into the back of an iPhone to make it work like a credit card terminal. Sweden's biggest banks are expected to launch a joint service later this year that allows customers to transfer money between each other's accounts in real-time with their cell phones.

Most experts don't expect cash to disappear anytime soon, but that its proportion of the economy will continue to decline as such payment options become available. Before retiring as deputy governor of Sweden's central bank, Lars Nyberg said last year that cash will survive "like the crocodile, even though it may be forced to see its habitat gradually cut back."

Andrea Wramfelt, whose bowling alley in the southern city of Landskrona stopped accepting cash in 2010, makes a bolder prediction: She believes coins and notes will cease to exist in Sweden within 20 years.

"Personally I think this is what people should expect in the future," she says.

But there are pockets of resistance. Hanna Celik, whose family owns a newspaper kiosk in a Stockholm shopping mall, says the digital economy is all about banks seeking bigger earnings.

Celik says he gets charged about 5 Swedish kronor ($0.80) for every credit card transaction, and a law passed by the Swedish Parliament prevents him from passing on that charge to consumers.

"That stinks," he says. "For them (the banks), this is a very good way to earn a lot of money, that's what it's all about. They make huge profits."

[specsaregood]

After his son was robbed for the third time he started advocating a faster transition to a fully digital economy, if only to make life harder for thieves.


Oh the irony.

[Lishy]

The funny part is that Sweden STILL has more freedoms than us, despite a cashless economy!

[amonasro]

If any argument were to be made for socialism, it would be Sweden. If you don't mind paying half of what you earn into a system that molds you into what it deems necessary for the State, then by all means, move to Sweden. Free college, free healthcare, safety nets abound... at least they openly admit what they are.

[Lishy]

Not all socialists are evil. Some are quite good in my opinion, who actually believe they are genuinely helping people! I use to be a socialist, and I can safely say they DO hold the same goals libertarians have. Just like us, they hate corrupt corporatism, often want drugs legalized, and we want to restore our sovereignty restored!

In the case of Sweden, it's simply a matter of beating them with a better idea, in hopes they imitate us! Because in the end, we both want the same thing; Justice!

[kezt777]

I know a guy in my city whose job is to go around fixing all the broken down card swipe machines. He is ALWAYS busy and works most weekends. He is actually starting to really hate his job because he misses so much time with his family - getting called out at all hours to fix machines in banks, stores, restaurants, etc. He likes the pay cheque but did not realize how demanding the job would be. He also services towns within an hour or so radius, and has had to go 2 hours away for emergencies many times as well... so that right there tells me why we should not be going to a cashless society, let alone all of the other potential problems that go along with it.

another example - just yesterday we had a blizzard and it knocked out power to a huge area of the city for several hours. Last time I checked, you kinda need power to work the machines. Of course, there are now cash registers that wont open without power as well, but the bosses can come with their special key and open the drawer to give people change, exchange cash, in such an event.

One of our taxi companies installed machines last year and I was happy because sometimes I dont have cash on me and need to grab a cab - but then the new bank card chips came in and the machines were useless without the company spending a whack more money to get them upgraded (mishap on part of the company, but still...)... and then a lot of places charge an extra dollar to use those machines (pizza delivery, taxis, etc) in order to cover the cost to the company for the equipment, bank fees, etc.... maybe that would change as we went 'cashless' but it seems to me everyone would be at the mercy of their banks rules. My bank only charges one low monthly fee no matter how many times I use my card, but there are still others who are more picky. If everyone everywhere was using their cards for everything, I can see banks starting to charge more - hence more money out of our pockets to go along with the idea. I like the options - but not everyone has a cell phone either for purchasing tickets or only wants a prepaid phone that may not be able to do all that (like me. I am not interested in going online with my phone and it only costs me $20 or less a month cos I only text with it)... etc etc.

and speaking of being robbed - since when is a bank card good if it's in your wallet or purse that someone just grabbed? if it happens after banking hours, you cannot even go there to get a new one in case you needed to pay for something right away (groceries, etc). There have been no end of trickery with these cards and banks constantly come up with ideas to deter thieves. Like my bank installing a new card reader in all ATMs because someone had come up with fake things that people would stick their cards into and punch in their code, and the data would be saved but it would look like the machine was broken - but the bad guys had the banking info of everyone who used it. Now mine has a big plastic green thing sticking out of it that no one has managed to make a new naughty tool to shove into (yet). If I dont have any cash in my house at all, i worry about some arse stealing my purse while im out with my little kids and not able to chase him down. blah blah blah etc etc. If something nasty goes down in sweden and they cannot use their machines and no one is able to take cash - what are they going to do? Everyone needs options, in my opinion, and it should also be up to the businesses for their own choice. We dont accept any credit cards or debit cards at my workplace because it's small, people only have to pay us once a month, and the fees for hooking up the technology would only cause the parents to have to pay even more than they already do - so we dont offer that option at all. Wanna use your card? Stop at the bank machine first and get us some nice cash :)

[BamaAla]

The funny part is that Sweden STILL has more freedoms than us, despite a cashless economy!

Not really. We have it better than the Swedes, and I never went into a place that didn't accept cash in my time there.

[aGameOfThrones]

Government 1: And when a Citizen like Anti Federalist decides he doesn't approve of US, what then?

Government 2: We have only to press Delete and he'll Bend the Knee.

[Anti Federalist]

Real world inconveniences.

The real problem?

When all this ties in government databases on personal information and purchases not will be cashless, but subject to real time government approval.

"BZZZZZT - I'm sorry ma'am, but the health records indicate you are above your optimum weight. You will not be allowed to purchase these potato chips."

"BZZZZZT - I'm sorry sir, but NICS indicates that you have a warrant out for an unpaid parking ticket. Please stand still and await arrival of SWAT, which will be here shortly."

Everything you do, everything you buy, everything you say, the grid is closing in.

And almost nobody gives a shit.


I know a guy in my city whose job is to go around fixing all the broken down card swipe machines. He is ALWAYS busy and works most weekends. He is actually starting to really hate his job because he misses so much time with his family - getting called out at all hours to fix machines in banks, stores, restaurants, etc. He likes the pay cheque but did not realize how demanding the job would be. He also services towns within an hour or so radius, and has had to go 2 hours away for emergencies many times as well... so that right there tells me why we should not be going to a cashless society, let alone all of the other potential problems that go along with it.

another example - just yesterday we had a blizzard and it knocked out power to a huge area of the city for several hours. Last time I checked, you kinda need power to work the machines. Of course, there are now cash registers that wont open without power as well, but the bosses can come with their special key and open the drawer to give people change, exchange cash, in such an event.

One of our taxi companies installed machines last year and I was happy because sometimes I dont have cash on me and need to grab a cab - but then the new bank card chips came in and the machines were useless without the company spending a whack more money to get them upgraded (mishap on part of the company, but still...)... and then a lot of places charge an extra dollar to use those machines (pizza delivery, taxis, etc) in order to cover the cost to the company for the equipment, bank fees, etc.... maybe that would change as we went 'cashless' but it seems to me everyone would be at the mercy of their banks rules. My bank only charges one low monthly fee no matter how many times I use my card, but there are still others who are more picky. If everyone everywhere was using their cards for everything, I can see banks starting to charge more - hence more money out of our pockets to go along with the idea. I like the options - but not everyone has a cell phone either for purchasing tickets or only wants a prepaid phone that may not be able to do all that (like me. I am not interested in going online with my phone and it only costs me $20 or less a month cos I only text with it)... etc etc.

[idiom]

I don't know anyone who uses cash. Back in 2000 when I visited the states I was astonished at how often I was forced to use cash. Its just so uncivilized.

[kezt777]

Ive thought of that too - and def give a crap :) Some would think it's crazy but it is already easy to do those things. Like with store cards - I have a Safeway club card and when I get coupons in the mail from safeway every few months, I noticed that every single thing I get a coupon for is something I normally purchase. I have yet to get a coupon for products I do not buy. So I know they have the data from my club card and 'detail' my coupons based on that.

Didnt I read on the forum here somewhere about some states starting to use swipeable drivers licenses to purchase tobacco or booze? My brain is failing me this evening... I would imagine it is being portrayed as a way to make sure underage people are not purchasing contraband, but the idea of it freaks me out a bit. I dont want something as important as my drivers license to be swiped through a machine in every little store I go into... it just seems like a bad idea.

Some might say it's over the top to worry about things like that - but I dont understand why so many people are complacent either.

[Anti Federalist]

Ive thought of that too - and def give a crap :) Some would think it's crazy but it is already easy to do those things. Like with store cards - I have a Safeway club card and when I get coupons in the mail from safeway every few months, I noticed that every single thing I get a coupon for is something I normally purchase. I have yet to get a coupon for products I do not buy. So I know they have the data from my club card and 'detail' my coupons based on that.

Didnt I read on the forum here somewhere about some states starting to use swipeable drivers licenses to purchase tobacco or booze? My brain is failing me this evening... I would imagine it is being portrayed as a way to make sure underage people are not purchasing contraband, but the idea of it freaks me out a bit. I dont want something as important as my drivers license to be swiped through a machine in every little store I go into... it just seems like a bad idea.

Some might say it's over the top to worry about things like that - but I dont understand why so many people are complacent either.

That was me.

In LA that I know of for sure.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't know anyone who uses cash. Back in 2000 when I visited the states I was astonished at how often I was forced to use cash. Its just so uncivilized.

So is freedom.

Messy, dirty, unorganized and dangerous.

[kezt777]

I don't know anyone who uses cash. Back in 2000 when I visited the states I was astonished at how often I was forced to use cash. Its just so uncivilized.

Yes and here is a little blurb from a quick search about New Zealand + cashless where the article states it can also be used to bar alcohol sales to those who have been branded as 'troublemakers'. http://www.squidcard.com/corporate/emoneynews/international/new-zealand-takes-step-towards-becoming-cashless-society1153.html . that seems to go along with what Anti-Fed was saying. who determines what a 'trouble maker' is? The business itself? If that's possible, then the govt should certainly be able to as well.

and another example of little mishaps that can happen with cashless stuff - blurb from a travel forum where a person rented a car in florida and then received a bill for a 'cashless toll booth' he did not even go on. Turns out the toll booths were taken down and if you drive on these routes, some sort of signal transponder mumbo jumbo happens, and his rental car company sent him a bill. but he didnt go on that road at all.....

""I also got slapped with a toll for route 874 using a Budget Rental. Mine was only for $16.00 BUT the problem was I didn't go on route 874. In fact, I rented in FLL and headed north up to Jensen Beach. I spend hours on the phone with both the Florida Toll Authority and Budget Customer Service but neither wanted to help be and each referred my back to the other.

I'm sure I spent more that $16.00 in long distance charges (as I was often kept on hold for long periods and was calling from Canada) but I refused to pay for something I didn't do.

After much discussion it turns out Budget did not give me the car that was on my contract. So someone else had my car and drove through route 874. Do you think at this point they would cancel the charge? No.

I finally had it reversed by my credit card company. Two things saved me. One, I had taken a time and date stamped photo of my car when I returned it that included the license plate and showed it was different from what was on the contract. The other was I had stopped and bought some groceries on my credit card in Jensen less than 30 minutes after supposedly going on the toll road and that would have been physically impossible.

I sent a letter to Budget Customer Service after with all relevant documents including the photo and never heard back from them. Makes you wonder. ""

Another person on the forum got a $152 bill for a similar event, only he did travel on the road and did not know it was an invisible (basically) toll route and ended up with huge fines. I wonder about the Canadian dude - he should follow up on this more in case he tries to visit the US again and ends up in custody at customs for not paying this toll fee.

[3kgt]

Don't we already have a cashless society?
Our money isn't worth anything. I've all but stopped "saving" it in favor of buying pretty much anything else, food, a street bike etc

[Demigod]

I don't know anyone who uses cash. Back in 2000 when I visited the states I was astonished at how often I was forced to use cash. Its just so uncivilized.

What are you talking about who in Europe does not use cash or anywhere in the world for that matter.And why is using paper more uncivilized than using plastic ?

[The_Ruffneck]

I don't know anyone who uses cash. Back in 2000 when I visited the states I was astonished at how often I was forced to use cash. Its just so uncivilized.
you use a credit card to buy a $2 hot dog from a mobile vendor?
Give me a break.

[The Northbreather]

I thought those commercials the card companies were pushing a while back were insane. Remember how they were all showing people in line getting angry at some one in front of them for using cash or writing a check?

What a joke.

I don't know how many times I've stood in line behind someone going " I KNOW I have enough in there can you try it again, and again, wait maybe its the strip...." AHHHHH

Gimmie a break. Then I walk up and pay with cash in about two seconds.

Hey boss. Maybe the reason you don't have enough money on your little government approved card is because your bank just robbed you.

You remember those small debits you made with your card a couple of days ago? You know checking account is getting low but that's okay because you're going to stop by the bank and put a check in. But wait a minute. Your bank account was automatically drafted today a little early for your larger car payment and you find this out when you arrive the bank. But there still should have plenty of money on your card so what happened?

The person at the bank tells you that you're $108 negative. He says you've been charged three $35 overdraft fees. The vein in your head starts throbbing as you tell the clerk that you had enough money in your checking account to cover those small debits and your car payment. He informs you that it's bank policy to process the larger debits first instead of the order they occurred as a convenience to the customer because they feel that larger debits are more important. He says that your car payment combined with your "low monthly maintenance fee", overdrew your checking account by three bucks so you were charged a $35. Then conveniently (for you the customer/serf) were charged an additional $35 apiece for those small debits of five or ten bucks that should of been processed days ago.

In other words per bank policy, you've just been robbed of $105 of your hard earned money by the bank that makes your money safer and more convenient.

[Jingles]

I prefer to use cash personally because I can keep better track of my money. I don't have much money in the first place and if I hold it physically I know what I have and can budget it better then. Something about using debit cards and etc... I just don't have the same sense of knowing that I am really actually exchanging something (Even if it is just worthless paper). I also don't like having all my transactions kept on record by the bank even I am just buying food (which is where all my money goes besides rent for the most part).

Maybe it's my belief that money is actually a commodity. Even though federal reserve notes are worthless money is still supposed to be a physical entity. It just feels like it has absolutely no value even more when I am using a debit card or something. When I hold cash it feels as though it has more value than whatever is sitting in a bank account. I wish there was an easy way for me to exchange federal reserve notes and silver whenever I wished. So when I get paid I could put it into silver and then if I needed to make transactions I could trade my some of my silver for federal reserve notes.

I really want competing currencies.

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNJl9EEcsoE

[Pericles]

Sweden has expressed a preference that its thieves use computers to accomplish the theft, rather than the use of personal confrontation with the threat of violence.

The society would rather have a more intelligent form of criminal. Why that is desirable, is a mystery to me, but I don't live there.

[kezt777]

I love my internet banking for paying bills, but also made sure I have it all set up on telephone banking as well in case the net is down, or the power is out (I keep a plain old plug-into-wall phone for power outage emergencies instead of cordless phones only like most people seem to have these days)... and I keep an old dusty book of cheques in case I end up having to mail in a bill someday... but that's also because I do not drive so I can't get all over town to pay my bills in 5 different places spread out all over unless I am forced to lol. But otherwise, I prefer getting out the right amount of cash for groceries etc. Occasionally I am nervous someone could grab my bag, but my bank card would be just as useless at that moment if it was gone too. But Ive managed to live almost 40 years without being mugged so far ;)

People like the convenience I guess, but like I heard a very young clerk at the store saying to a customer tonight, he doesnt want those 'pay pass' cards that you just wave over the machine because you don't have to sign, the person at the til doesnt have to see a name on it or even touch the card, so he thinks it makes the potential for theft easier. Right now with my credit card, it's a surprise depending on the store - sometimes I have to sign, sometimes I have to punch in my pin number. I dont use credit cards very often, but have noticed that lately - even with the chip it's like it goes eenie meenie minie moe... but back to the convenience thing - people like it but seem to forget that they have to pay for that luxury. It seems a no-brainer because, for example, in Convenience Stores like 7-11, items like milk, toilet paper, etc tend to be a much higher cost than if you were able to pop into the grocery store. But if you need something at 3am badly enough, you pay EXTRA for the 'convenience' of it being sold there..... and hence I fear the 'convenience' fees rising for everyone as all of this stuff starts to take effect.