FL - Another one to file under "NEVER CALL THE COPS!"

[Anti Federalist]

And you say: "Well, what's the cop supposed to do, he had a knife?"

And I say, "Not be there."

Calm down, talk them down, don't call cops, and everybody might live another day.

Who knows for sure what went down, but it's pretty much a sure thing these days: call cops into situation like that, and somebody is going to end up dead.

Too bad this family never had a chance to hear that advice.

Sadly, they probably would not have listened anyway...


Mom rips Miramar police for shooting knife-wielding son

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702781/mom-rips-miramar-police-for-shooting.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy#sto rylink=cpy

Fifteen years ago, Owena Nesbitt buried her father, well-known as a counselor to the homeless and drug abusers, who was stabbed to death in a brutal Miami case that remains unsolved.

Now Nesbitt is making arrangements to bury her son, just 17 years old when he was shot and killed Friday by two Miramar police officers called to break up a family fight.

Corey Nesbitt was shot after he refused to drop a knife and continued to advance toward a relative who had called police to intervene in a domestic dispute, according to police spokeswoman Tania Rues.

“They shot him down like he was a dog,” said Owena Nesbitt. “They did not have to do that.”

Police said the incident began about 9 p.m. Friday outside a townhouse in the 2700 block of Southwest 82nd Avenue, in the Tuscany development.

As officers talked to a man who had made the 911 call, Nesbitt “came out of the residence armed with a knife and charged at the person being interviewed,” according to a police press release.

“I am going to kill you,” officers quoted Nesbitt as saying, Rues said Monday.

When Nesbitt ignored commands to stop and drop the knife, both officers opened fire, Rues said.

Nesbitt was taken to Memorial Regional Hospital in Hollywood, where he died.

Rues would not say how many shots were fired. A section of the parking lot is now awash in orange paint, indicating spots where bullet casings and other evidence were collected. The front door of the townhouse and wall around it are pockmarked with bullet holes.

“It was a volatile situation where the man who called police feared for his life,” said Rues. “The actions were those of officers trying to protect someone from being killed. They put their lives on the line.”

Nesbitt, 44, said her son, a student at Miami Central High School, was visiting an aunt who lives in the townhouse Friday. She described the man involved as her son’s stepbrother.

The officers have been placed on administrative leave while the investigation into the shooting is underway, Rues said. That is standard policy in such cases, she said.

George Nesbitt, Owena Nesbitt’s father, was 59 when he was found dead in his Little Haiti home in May 1997. Miami police said the motive might have been robbery.

“What I’m going through now is very hard,” said Nesbitt. “With the help of my family, I’m just trying to deal with it.”

Nesbitt said Monday that funeral arrangements for her son were incomplete.

[asurfaholic]

As officers talked to a man who had made the 911 call, Nesbitt “came out of the residence armed with a knife and charged at the person being interviewed,” according to a police press release.

“I am going to kill you,” officers quoted Nesbitt as saying, Rues said Monday.

When Nesbitt ignored commands to stop and drop the knife, both officers opened fire, Rues said.

I really don't fault the officers for this, if the report is true. This is a justified shooting... Crazy bastard with a knife runs towards me, Im going to shoot him too...

[Anti Federalist]

I really don't fault the officers for this, if the report is true. This is a justified shooting... Crazy bastard with a knife runs towards me, Im going to shoot him too...

And you say: "Well, what's the cop supposed to do, he had a knife?"

And I say, "Not be there."

Calm down, talk them down, don't call cops, and everybody might live another day.

Maybe that wasn't possible, I don't know, but I do know that people are too eager to dial 911 and it gets people killed.

[TheTexan]

Don't call the cops: maybe someone gets killed
Call the cops: someone for sure is getting killed

Shrug

[asurfaholic]

I really do get it. In normal circumstances people can (or need to learn how to) resolve conflict without calling the armed guard, aka standing army, to reinforce their particular side of the argument.

But AF, MAYBE I am wrong about this, but this case doesn't really illustrate the depth of our problems with the blue rangers. There is just not enough facts available to say for certain, but a crazy man with a knife in most normal peoples minds warrants some sort of force to defend themselves. In the 911 callers case, maybe he had no business calling for the pigs on wheels, but if he felt threatened, he acted somewhat reasonably. Just calling the cops for no reason would seem malicious, but like I said, I don't know all the facts.

The man with a knife made the stupid mistake here, imo. While a good rule of thumb is "don't talk to cops," another good one is "don't charge at a cop with a knife." Its quite possible that these were reasonable cops, maybe they were telling the 911 caller that he needs to resolve the dispute privately, when the man came at them, with a knife.

My whole point is, there are PLENTY of better cases that illustrate the cops gone wild scenario.

[flightlesskiwi]

in thinking about the incident that AF posted earlier-- about the man being concerned for the two teenage girls in the snowstorm, the girls getting "creeped out" and calling the cops and the cops tracking the married, father of 2 (3rd on the way) down and citing him for disorderly conduct.

the statement the police issued-- something like "don't talk to people yourself, that could lead to your arrest, conviction and criminal record. call the cops if you have concern for anyone."

when i read this story i thought "if a relative/friend is charging me with a knife, i'd rather be the one doing the shooting because i would try everything in my power to not shoot to kill" but then i had the thought thought "if i did that, i'd be arrested and tried for attempted manslaughter so i don't know...."

yeah, i'd say the amerikan public has been neutered, hamstrung, gutted, and hung out in the sun for the buzzards to pluck out our eyeballs.

and it occurred to me: that's how our right to bear arms is being taken away-- not by physically removing our weapons, but making it legally impossible to defend one's self and illegal to help anyone we believe to be in danger unless you have a badge.

*sigh*

[asurfaholic]

in thinking about the incident that AF posted earlier-- about the man being concerned for the two teenage girls in the snowstorm, the girls getting "creeped out" and calling the cops and the cops tracking the married, father of 2 (3rd on the way) down and citing him for disorderly conduct.

the statement the police issued-- something like "don't talk to people yourself, that could lead to your arrest, conviction and criminal record. call the cops if you have concern for anyone."

when i read this story i thought "if a relative/friend is charging me with a knife, i'd rather be the one doing the shooting because i would try everything in my power to not shoot to kill" but then i had the thought thought "if i did that, i'd be arrested and tried for attempted manslaughter so i don't know...."

yeah, i'd say the amerikan public has been neutered, hamstrung, gutted, and hung out in the sun for the buzzards to pluck out our eyeballs.

and it occurred to me: that's how our right to bear arms is being taken away-- not by physically removing our weapons, but making it legally impossible to defend one's self and illegal to help anyone we believe to be in danger unless you have a badge.

*sigh*


Agree completely

[qh4dotcom]

I really don't fault the officers for this, if the report is true. This is a justified shooting... Crazy bastard with a knife runs towards me, Im going to shoot him too...

The correct thing to do here would be get closer and to shoot at his legs...or use the Taser...not shoot to kill. Having a knife is different than having a gun.

[presence]

How to disarm a man with a knife, various schools:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGzhtDf0ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUm9-0otKAg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rsv1_rSyxE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrhlF0D1TFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDOKDxj_exk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FszT0RXUmc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3hJtPFDkFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8RipNS85bQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKuaa3oygTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xESnHOOP4M0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUcQMCLHGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh4TiDyuTbY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvgjn8o8B3Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI7QmJYaH_g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guLgrSBu1hA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0MIQkbD2fU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T45Z2xD3U_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHHeTS9xF9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REPjFrl8YwA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-I_no4uky0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs2gY3ajNQE

Something must be done
About vengeance, a badge and a gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smim2MNvF8)

presence

[Voluntary Man]

“It was a volatile situation where the man who called police feared for his life,” said Rues. “The actions were those of officers trying to protect someone from being killed. They put their lives on the line.”

No, Rues. THEIR lives were NEVER in danger. The "officers" took advantage of the opportunity to have a live fire exercise, and used the suspect for target practice. Putting your life on the line is disarming the man with the knife (not that hard, if you know what you're doing...especially for two guys). Any pussy can shoot a guy with a knife. Another fail for the ball-less blueboys.

[Voluntary Man]

I really don't fault the officers for this, if the report is true. This is a justified shooting... Crazy bastard with a knife runs towards me, Im going to shoot him too...

Cops call report writing (amongst themselves) "fairytaling" or "once upon a timing." Reports are written with the specific intent of shining the most favorable light on police actions. If a case goes to court, any witnesses who might call the veracity of the Police Report into question are co-opted, intimidated, discredited, or eliminated (in that order).

You can safely bet that any police report contains at least 3 material misrepresentations.

[tod evans]

Cops call report writing (amongst themselves) "fairytaling" or "once upon a timing." Reports are written with the specific intent of shining the most favorable light on police actions. If a case goes to court, any witnesses who might call the veracity of the Police Report into question are co-opted, intimidated, discredited, or eliminated (in that order).

You can safely bet that any police report contains at least 3 material misrepresentations.

At this point there is no reason for every cop to NOT be digitally recorded every working hour.

Media/recording devices and storage are cheaper than fuel bills or ammo.

If a written report isn't accompanied by both audio and video then cases should be dismissed.

This wouldn't require more legislation, only defense lawyers insisting on "readily available" documentation of a crime.

[Voluntary Man]

At this point there is no reason for every cop to NOT be digitally recorded every working hour.

Media/recording devices and storage are cheaper than fuel bills or ammo.

If a written report isn't accompanied by both audio and video then cases should be dismissed.

This wouldn't require more legislation, only defense lawyers insisting on "readily available" documentation of a crime.

The only reason this has not happened (and likely won't) is opposition from police officers themselves. It's the same reason police across the country are arresting citizens who video/audio record police actions (without any prevailing legal authority for the arrests). They don't want US watching THEM. If the public were to suddenly have a video/audio record of police activity, that entire culture of corruption would have to change. Don't hold your breath.

[Czolgosz]

Cops will not make any situation better.

[asurfaholic]

Cops call report writing (amongst themselves) "fairytaling" or "once upon a timing." Reports are written with the specific intent of shining the most favorable light on police actions. If a case goes to court, any witnesses who might call the veracity of the Police Report into question are co-opted, intimidated, discredited, or eliminated (in that order).

You can safely bet that any police report contains at least 3 material misrepresentations.

I dont dispute that. But that doesn't mean there is never a justified shooting. I really don't know why I keep defending this, but to those who are suggesting that the officer should have disarmed the knife wielding man, that's nuts. I wouldn't expect anyone to be compelled to attempt to disarm a knife from a possibly violent situation. The only situation that is the reasonable approach is when the victim has no weapon himself and can't flee safely.

Tasers, well that is what they were designed for right? Would have been ideal.

Shoot him in the legs? Have you got no sense? A shooting by officer is only justified when the officer fears for his life, or someone elses. There is no "shoot to maim" scenario that is acceptable. You either fear for your life or you don't. Shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all. Most depts have very strict SOPs in this regard, even so that it is not permissable to fire a "warning" shot, for any reason.

Some facts that are critical to determining whether this is a case of trigger happy cop, or justified shooting are -

How far away was the suspect when shots were fired? Was he actually charging the officers or the neighbor when the shots were fired? Was a taser available for use?

Also, suicide by cop isn't really uncommon, based on the face that the boys father had passed away, it is not unreasonable to question if he was depressed or had some motive for what he did.



I say all this with caution, I have seen first hand how out of control the whole system is. I don't know enough facts to say for sure either way, but I stand by the assertion that a man charging ME with a knife is a dead man. Any man, in uniform or not has the right, and possibly the duty, to drop the threat before someone else gets hurt or killed.

[tod evans]

But that doesn't mean there is never a justified shooting.

No recording= unjustified shooting=cop liable.

[Shredmonster]

With all due respect to the person who started this thread - unless you have been trained in things like this you have no idea what the situation entails.

Here are a couple facts: 1 in 10 people die when shot with a gun
4 in 10 people die when stabbed with a knife

So first knives are extremely dangerous. Next if someone is within 20 feet of you and you do not have your gun ALREADY DRAWN you are probably going to get stabbed. You won't have time to draw when charged.
This is another statistical fact. This is taught to cops. I am not a cop but I have been trained in this kind of thing. They had to shoot if the guy was charging or anywhere near them and did not put the knife down.

[Voluntary Man]

I dont dispute that. But that doesn't mean there is never a justified shooting. I really don't know why I keep defending this, but to those who are suggesting that the officer should have disarmed the knife wielding man, that's nuts. I wouldn't expect anyone to be compelled to attempt to disarm a knife from a possibly violent situation. The only situation that is the reasonable approach is when the victim has no weapon himself and can't flee safely.

Tasers, well that is what they were designed for right? Would have been ideal.

Shoot him in the legs? Have you got no sense? A shooting by officer is only justified when the officer fears for his life, or someone elses. There is no "shoot to maim" scenario that is acceptable. You either fear for your life or you don't. Shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all. Most depts have very strict SOPs in this regard, even so that it is not permissable to fire a "warning" shot, for any reason.

Some facts that are critical to determining whether this is a case of trigger happy cop, or justified shooting are -

How far away was the suspect when shots were fired? Was he actually charging the officers or the neighbor when the shots were fired? Was a taser available for use?

Also, suicide by cop isn't really uncommon, based on the face that the boys father had passed away, it is not unreasonable to question if he was depressed or had some motive for what he did.



I say all this with caution, I have seen first hand how out of control the whole system is. I don't know enough facts to say for sure either way, but I stand by the assertion that a man charging ME with a knife is a dead man. Any man, in uniform or not has the right, and possibly the duty, to drop the threat before someone else gets hurt or killed.

Neither do I. Aren't you the guy who was arrested for being naked in his own shower, based on a report by peepers?

The point about the tazers is that the police automatically respond with lethal force to ANY armed conflict, whether the "suspect" (we are all suspects, btw) has a gun, a knife, a bat, a nine iron, garden hose nozzle, or a Subway club sandwich. They only respond with "less lethal" force (a tazer or a takedown), when a suspect is clearly unarmed. They choose to shoot rather than tazering a diminished capacity person with a butter knife, not because it's the best way to handle the situation, but because they can get away with it. Period. You might as well ask why they felt it necessary to unloaded both of their weapons on the kid.

If you're looking for a hero, look at a fireman. Firemen actually do risk their lives to save your life and property, whereas a cop's highest priority each day is to get through his shift without breaking a nail; and if the choice ever needs to be made between a cop getting a little bruise or YOU getting a few dozen extra air-holes, you never need to doubt for a moment which choice that pansy on patrol will make.

As for disarming a guy with a knife, sure, there are times when shooting, if you have a gun available, is probably your only reasonable option. But, cops have exhausted all of their credibility with lies and sport-shootings. A police report is such a farce that it can't be considered evidence of anything but a sworn officer of the law's willingness to perjure himself on a daily basis, to protect his own worthless hide. The kid with the knife could just as likely have been standing 30 feet away, spreading creamcheese on a bagel, and so drunk that he could barely stand -- much less understand police instructions -- and the story would've ended the exact same way, right down to the police report that says the kid charged the cops with a samurai sword, screaming "BANZAI!"

Besides, sometimes disarming a guy with a knife is the best option, and I know I'm not the only one on this forum who's done it, and if two cops can't do it, they need to find a new line of work. There are WAY too many cops, anyway.

[Anti Federalist]

I really do get it. In normal circumstances people can (or need to learn how to) resolve conflict without calling the armed guard, aka standing army, to reinforce their particular side of the argument.

But AF, MAYBE I am wrong about this, but this case doesn't really illustrate the depth of our problems with the blue rangers. There is just not enough facts available to say for certain, but a crazy man with a knife in most normal peoples minds warrants some sort of force to defend themselves. In the 911 callers case, maybe he had no business calling for the pigs on wheels, but if he felt threatened, he acted somewhat reasonably. Just calling the cops for no reason would seem malicious, but like I said, I don't know all the facts.

The man with a knife made the stupid mistake here, imo. While a good rule of thumb is "don't talk to cops," another good one is "don't charge at a cop with a knife." Its quite possible that these were reasonable cops, maybe they were telling the 911 caller that he needs to resolve the dispute privately, when the man came at them, with a knife.

My whole point is, there are PLENTY of better cases that illustrate the cops gone wild scenario.


Yes, I understand, and you're probably right, this is not the best case to present: an immediate threat with knife along with "I'm going to kill you" is justification to use deadly force, assuming all the facts of the case are true.

But I did have a reason, and that is as a cautionary tale once again.

Know what you're "buying" when you call 911, and as much as humanely possible, try to avoid it.

[Anti Federalist]

dupe post

[heavenlyboy34]

Is it harder to reach for pepper spray than a gun? From the details available, it seems the guy could have been handled easily by non-lethal means.

[Anti Federalist]

Is it harder to reach for pepper spray than a gun? From the details available, it seems the guy could have been handled easily by non-lethal means.

Three words, my brother:

Circular Force Continuum.

[asurfaholic]

Neither do I. Aren't you the guy who was arrested for being naked in his own shower, based on a report by peepers?

The point about the tazers is that the police automatically respond with lethal force to ANY armed conflict, whether the "suspect" (we are all suspects, btw) has a gun, a knife, a bat, a nine iron, garden hose nozzle, or a Subway club sandwich. They only respond with "less lethal" force (a tazer or a takedown), when a suspect is clearly unarmed. They choose to shoot rather than tazering a diminished capacity person with a butter knife, not because it's the best way to handle the situation, but because they can get away with it. Period. You might as well ask why they felt it necessary to unloaded both of their weapons on the kid.

If you're looking for a hero, look at a fireman. Firemen actually do risk their lives to save your life and property, whereas a cop's highest priority each day is to get through his shift without breaking a nail; and if the choice ever needs to be made between a cop getting a little bruise or YOU getting a few dozen extra air-holes, you never need to doubt for a moment which choice that pansy on patrol will make.

As for disarming a guy with a knife, sure, there are times when shooting, if you have a gun available, is probably your only reasonable option. But, cops have exhausted all of their credibility with lies and sport-shootings. A police report is such a farce that it can't be considered evidence of anything but a sworn officer of the law's willingness to perjure himself on a daily basis, to protect his own worthless hide. The kid with the knife could just as likely have been standing 30 feet away, spreading creamcheese on a bagel, and so drunk that he could barely stand -- much less understand police instructions -- and the story would've ended the exact same way, right down to the police report that says the kid charged the cops with a samurai sword, screaming "BANZAI!"

Besides, sometimes disarming a guy with a knife is the best option, and I know I'm not the only one on this forum who's done it, and if two cops can't do it, they need to find a new line of work. There are WAY too many cops, anyway.


Yep, that was me. Nekid as a jaybird, but of course the story changed as the days grew on. Went from the truth (I did indeed undress to shower) to a lie in a day, then the story kept changing. Lucky for me this accuser has a reputation, and my lawyer did what I paid him to do. Even luckier, it wasn't a cop that accused me of the crime, or id be shit outta luck.

I have learned however that you just can't depend on anyone but yourself to look out for your best interests. Having been robbed 3 times at my own house, I don't even call the cops for that. They would probably shoot my dog.

[Anti Federalist]

Having been robbed 3 times at my own house, I don't even call the cops for that. They would probably shoot my dog.

Jesus...

Maybe it's time to move.

To NH maybe.

[Voluntary Man]

Yep, that was me. Nekid as a jaybird, but of course the story changed as the days grew on. Went from the truth (I did indeed undress to shower) to a lie in a day, then the story kept changing. Lucky for me this accuser has a reputation, and my lawyer did what I paid him to do. Even luckier, it wasn't a cop that accused me of the crime, or id be shit outta luck.

I have learned however that you just can't depend on anyone but yourself to look out for your best interests. Having been robbed 3 times at my own house, I don't even call the cops for that. They would probably shoot my dog.

Yes, you were very lucky, because cops never lie, and you wouldn't be sitting at that table, unless you'd done SOMETHING wrong. At least, that's what juries are led to believe by artful prosecutors.

During voir dire, has anyone ever asked a potential juror if he or a loved one has ever been falsely accused of a crime? If so, I wonder if a defense attorney has ever gotten enough positive responses to that question to exhaust the prosecution's preremptory challenges.

After all, aren't you entitled to a jury of your peers?

[AFPVet]

Is it harder to reach for pepper spray than a gun? From the details available, it seems the guy could have been handled easily by non-lethal means.

My pepper was always easy to reach.

[tod evans]

After all, aren't you entitled to a jury of your peers?

In writing yes.............In reality, good luck!

Remember almost no one has a jury trial any more.

Once a person is accused by a cop a plea soon follows.

[presence]

Example of a justified police shooting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17473207
A police sniper shot and killed the gunman

[quote]
carried out three separate attacks, killing four people at a Jewish school and three soldiers.
[]
When officers tried to find out if there was anyone in the bathroom, the suspect came out firing several weapons.
[]
the suspect was "shooting very violently. The bursts of gunfire were frequent and hard".[] "he had never seen such a violent assault".
[]
Two officers were reported wounded in the attack.
[]
was armed with a Kalashnikov high-velocity rifle, a mini-Uzi 9mm machine pistol, several handguns and possibly grenades.
[]
fired 30 bullets as the commandos broke in.
[]
he was wearing a bullet-proof vest
[]
he was shot in the head as he tried to flee.
[quote]


And we compare this to two well trained officers who "put their life on the line" armed with 9mm semi auto pistols facing a 17 year old kid with a knife.

That's like saying "I put my life on the line" armed with a 30-06 against a buck with horns.

we call it hunting in my neck of the woods,

presence