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FrankRep
03-18-2012, 10:39 AM
http://freestateproject.org/sites/all/themes/fsp960/images/header-logo.jpg (http://freestateproject.org/)


Free State Project - New Hampshire
http://freestateproject.org/


I would really like to see this experiment succeed and gain enough power to control the politics of New Hampshire. In order for the general population to take Libertarianism seriously, they'll need to see it in action. The Free State State project can provide that framework.

So. Who plans on moving to New Hampshire this year?

Voluntary Man
03-18-2012, 11:04 AM
NH's biggest problem (re: the FSP) is the southern part of the state. Much like northern VA, it perverts the politics of the rest of the state. However, NH may be the biggest beneficiary of this campaign.

BuddyRey
03-18-2012, 12:04 PM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

ZENemy
03-18-2012, 12:15 PM
I love the idea.

Ob@ma will probably declare NH a threat to the country and use his new executive powers to seize the state.

Crotale
03-18-2012, 12:22 PM
Er, not me. Although I reckon Americans should jump on board immediately.

Crotale
03-18-2012, 12:23 PM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

There are creative ways of avoiding or at least reducing that. ;)

BuddyRey
03-18-2012, 12:35 PM
There are creative ways of avoiding or at least reducing that. ;)

Well I did see that one video where Ian Freeman paid his property taxes in pennies. But I don't think that did much other than to severely inconvenience the clerk and hold up her line. :D

Anti Federalist
03-18-2012, 01:14 PM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

We're working on it.

The best thing to do is get involved in town issues, make sure that the selectmen aren't writing blanks checks each time some cop, fireman, or schoolteacher comes wandering in, wheezing that they need a new 30 million dollar facility.

Also, be very careful about what town you might want to move to.

The tax rates vary wildly from town to town.

http://www.revenue.nh.gov/munc_prop/2011PropertyTaxRatesRelatedData.htm

It varies from $1 per thousand to over $30 per thousand of assessed value.

Most places are in the $15 to $20 range.

Which is, of course, $1500 to $2000 per year on a home assessed at $100,000.

Which, considering that you pay basically no other taxes on income or purchases, it's a bargain, I think.

rhelwig
03-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Well I did see that one video where Ian Freeman paid his property taxes in pennies. But I don't think that did much other than to severely inconvenience the clerk and hold up her line. :D

More than just inconvenience a clerk, it makes the folks working on reducing government seem more normal and thus more acceptable.

Where I came from I was pretty much the most radical guy around. Here in NH I'm pretty normal, especially when compared to some of the more "interesting" folks.

If you're into politics, there's a lot of towns here where you can run for local office unopposed just by showing up. A few years ago I was volunteering as a reporter for a local paper and I went in to the town office on a Friday afternoon to see who had signed up to run. There were at least 3 positions where no one had signed up yet, so I did. Easy win.

Getting on town budget committees is usually pretty easy, and you can have a lot of influence there.

WilliamShrugged
03-18-2012, 02:15 PM
I just moved to Idaho last year but i definetly will keep an eye on NH and if things continue and as i build up my savings and resume i will be heading there.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 10:23 AM
Well I did see that one video where Ian Freeman paid his property taxes in pennies. But I don't think that did much other than to severely inconvenience the clerk and hold up her line. :D

LOL :D No, but I think if you're inventive you stand a chance.

Besides, I would rather have my money stolen from me in the form of property tax than an income tax. The ideal though, of course, is no tax. You participating in the FSP could help make that happen.

Pericles
03-21-2012, 10:29 AM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

That ^

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 10:56 AM
NH's biggest problem (re: the FSP) is the southern part of the state. Much like northern VA, it perverts the politics of the rest of the state. However, NH may be the biggest beneficiary of this campaign.

Southern NH isn't something holding the FSP or liberty in NH back. Property taxes in southern NH tend to be higher on average than property taxes in central and northern NH, because the people in southern NH want them higher. So, it takes more effort to live an extremely low tax lifestyle in southern NH than the rest of the state. The same is true for zoning and planning regulations.

When it comes to getting good people in leadership positions in the GOP or elected to office, it isn't any harder in southern NH, though. For example, Ron Paul won 8 towns in Cheshire County, which borders MA. In fact, the MA border area east of Nashua all the way to the ocean is one of the most Republican parts of NH. Lots of the people that live there are Republicans that left MA. They tend to not mind high property taxes and like suburban living (after all they feel, they live in the safest place in the US, with the highest quality of life and it has no general sales tax, no personal income tax and property taxes are less than what they were spending in MA.) When it comes to electing state Reps., they often elect libertarian Republicans. They would elect a lot more libertarian Republicans too, if more ran. Some of those towns pretty much only elect Republicans as state Reps. We know how to train you to win in NH. We have that part down. We just need more libertarian Republicans to get involved either with the GOP there or move there and get involved with the GOP. Having 90 or so libertarian Republican state Reps. is great but within a few years, I don't see why we couldn't have 150 if we just had more movers.

tfurrh
03-21-2012, 11:00 AM
Have there ever been any Bigfoot sightings in NH? <----- potential deciding factor

Schiff_FTW
03-21-2012, 11:03 AM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

I guess it's all relative. Compared to where I live in CT the property taxes in most of NH are incredibly reasonable. Plus they don't have all the other taxes CT has.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 11:05 AM
When it comes to electing state Reps., they often elect libertarian Republicans. They would elect a lot more libertarian Republicans too, if more ran. Some of those towns pretty much only elect Republicans as state Reps. We know how to train you to win in NH. We have that part down. We just need more libertarian Republicans to get involved either with the GOP there or move there and get involved with the GOP. Having 90 or so libertarian Republican state Reps. is great but within a few years, I don't see why we couldn't have 150 if we just had more movers.

Are you a candidate or representative yourself Keith? You're quite eloquent and seem pretty well-read, you seem ideal. :)

Crotale
03-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Have there ever been any Bigfoot sightings in NH? <----- potential deciding factor

Um, yes. Lots. :cool:

bolil
03-21-2012, 11:18 AM
I love the idea.

Ob@ma will probably declare NH a threat to the country and use his new executive powers to seize the state.

Or perhaps New Hampshire is the barn they are herding us into. Don't be surprized when the door shuts and you begin to smell gas. Just food for thought.

muzzled dogg
03-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Moved right before the nh primary

TheTexan
03-21-2012, 11:29 AM
Or perhaps New Hampshire is the barn they are herding us into. Don't be surprized when the door shuts and you begin to smell gas. Just food for thought.

Remind me to carry armor piercing rounds. That should be able to shoot through the wooden doors, methinks.

SilentBull
03-21-2012, 11:30 AM
Hoping to move there this year.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 11:46 AM
Or perhaps New Hampshire is the barn they are herding us into. Don't be surprized when the door shuts and you begin to smell gas. Just food for thought.

I've never heard such nonsense. Are you seriously trying to say that the FSP is some sort of agency of the New World Order? Not even Alex Jones is that kooky. Despite not believing what they claim to be true myself, I respect the truther-types in the R3VOLUTION. I believe that the infowars folk are important allies, and that they are on the side of liberty. However claiming that the FSP is part of a government genocidal conspiracy is complete bonkers. It's up there with those who believe in lizard people, that Ron Paul is a freemason/illuminati/Bildeberg member and that the government run by grey aliens which use mind control.

specsaregood
03-21-2012, 11:52 AM
//

donnay
03-21-2012, 11:53 AM
Have there ever been any Bigfoot sightings in NH? <----- potential deciding factor

Yes! I live with Big Foot. LOL! ;)

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 11:54 AM
It is certainly on the "to be discussed" list when my wife finishes school in december.

As it should be.

I think I'd blow me own brains out if I had to live in NJ again.

;)

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 11:54 AM
Yes! I live with Big Foot. LOL! ;)

HEY!!!

WTF did I do?

donnay
03-21-2012, 11:55 AM
HEY!!!

WTF did I do?

Nuttin' honey. You just have big feet. :p

specsaregood
03-21-2012, 11:56 AM
//

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 12:04 PM
Remind me to carry armor piercing rounds. That should be able to shoot through the wooden doors, methinks.

Tanks and machine guns are legal in NH. Feel free to openly carry a machine gun but keep in mind that people may scream and run from you :) Heck, we don't even have any knife laws. People are legally allowed to walk down the street dressed like a samurai if they want. I wouldn't be surprised if someone called the cops, though. No arrest or charges will come of it.

While NH is a small state, there are still 100s of miles here. Unless Obama was willing to nuke Boston, MA, Albany, NY and Montreal, Canada, he couldn't destroy NH. Of course, every 4 years NH is the most important state in the US politically.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIly8IXWHVI

Pericles
03-21-2012, 12:07 PM
Tanks and machine guns are legal in NH. Feel free to openly carry a machine gun but keep in mind that people may scream and run from you :) Heck, we don't even have any knife laws. People are legally allowed to walk down the street dressed like a samurai if they want. I wouldn't be surprised if someone called the cops, though. No arrest or charges will come of it.

While NH is a small state, there are still 100s of miles here. Unless Obama was willing to nuke Boston, MA, Albany, NY and Montreal, Canada, he couldn't destroy NH. Of course, every 4 years NH is the most important state in the US politically.


Too bad that does not extend to the idea of groups of people freely associating with each other carrying said weapons.

PreDeadMan
03-21-2012, 12:20 PM
I'd like to move to New Hampshire in the future. I'll probably check out PorcFest this year as I've never even visited New Hampshire. I'm in a band also I'm going to try and convince my band to play at Porcfest. some of my band's songs are at www.reverbnation.com/AnotherLifeBand for anyone that wants to check it out... basement recordings pretty good quality.

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 12:31 PM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

Good news on that front!
Cutting spending can be a bi-partisan effort in New Hampshire. Yesterday the 26 Republican and 17 Democrat member group that controls the Merrimack County budget voted 32-1 for a new budget that is 2.8 percent less than last year's budget. With more liberty lovers in NH, this could happen in all 10 counties! www.concordmonitor.com/article/318632/county-budget-for-2012-okayed

But seriously, I think you may be misunderstanding how NH as a state functions. It functions very differently from most other places in the world. NH has by far the most decentralized state government in the US in how taxes are raised and spending is controlled.

The state government is funded by various things but most of the money comes from the excise/sales taxes on most prepared food, prepared drinks, hotel rooms, car rentals, the regulation of liquor and wine, various fees like the real estate transfer tax, the lottery (which was created in NH as a way to avoid a general sales or income tax) and from corporate taxes (which can be partly or wholly avoided by small businesses.) There is no general sales or personal income tax to fund the state government, like in every other state except AK. AK gets massive amounts of money from the federal government and it's corporate taxes, though. NH doesn't get the handouts and doesn't have a ton of oil it can tax. Most of the urban areas of AK have local sales tax, something banned in NH.

Counties have few responsibilities in NH. That article I posted above explains what counties do in NH. Counties collect little in taxes but what they do collect if from property taxes. The state Reps. in the county decide the budget so it is important to get as many libertarian state Reps. as possible in NH. With 200 libertarian leaning state Reps., even county could reduce it's budget every year, thus reducing property taxes.

Schools are paid for almost entirely with local funds. Local funds also pay much of the costs of town roads, police, fire and so on. These local funds are mostly property taxes and neither counties nor local governments are allowed to create sales or income taxes. In most towns, the residents of the town get together and go over the proposed budget. The residents may decide to cut things from the budget or add things to the budget. Once the residents have gone over the budget and town issues (this takes a few hours to a couple days, depending on how much the residents want to debate the issues), the property tax rate for the town is sit so that it covers all of the agreed upon spending. The same thing happens with school districts. People have less power to decide the school budget though because there are more state and federal mandates.

Free staters and other liberty lovers are doing a lot to reduce property taxes, and overall taxes and spending. For example, starting in 2012, towns may vote in spending caps, tax caps or both. Some people are trying to work much more choice into government schools including scholarships provided by businesses. Unfortunately, the NH Supreme Court keeps getting in the way. My guess is that most of the people on the NH Supreme Court are statists. They don't like that state taxes are so much lower in NH than all other states (especially in the Northeast) and they don't care about what the NH Constitution says. They just want to increase taxes and so they purposely misinterpret the NH Constitution. It probably annoys them that since taxes are so locally controlled in NH, that people in certain towns pay 1/3 of the property taxes people pay in certain other towns.

For example, the NH Constitution (along with the VT Constitution) may be interpreted to say that there is zero requirement for the state government to spend a single penny on government schools. However, some of the towns/cities in NH didn't like that the state government gave very little money to help fund government schools in NH. The towns sued and the NH Supreme Court ruled that the state government does have to help fund government schools in every district. The state government decided to create a property tax scheme to do this instead of create a state sales or personal income tax. The state decided to add a line to every towns property taxes and call it a state tax, even though the state doesn't get the money, the schools do. The state does raise the money, either, the towns do. It is a very unpopular scheme that both the current Democratic governor and almost all Republicans want to end. People have been trying to end it for years but the very pro-liberty Republicans are preventing it from ending because they are so principled. In order to get enough votes to likely pass a constitutional amendment to end the scheme, the amendment would have to say that it is partially the state's responsibility to pay for government schools. Since the NH Constitution can currently be interpreted that the state has no responsibility to even give a penny, the principled Republicans don't want to give that up.

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 12:32 PM
Yeah, but we live in the house my wife grew up in, and she has more family members than I can count on 2 hands within babysitting range. There is no real draw for ME; but i'm only half of the equation. How's the nursing field up there -- employment wise? Cuz NJ is booming with all the old farts.

Nursing and medical, both are doing well.

Sister in law will be getting into the field when brother moves.

Employment in general is good.

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 12:36 PM
Very nice summation.

+rep

Oh and God damn Claremont.


Good news on that front!
Cutting spending can be a bi-partisan effort in New Hampshire. Yesterday the 26 Republican and 17 Democrat member group that controls the Merrimack County budget voted 32-1 for a new budget that is 2.8 percent less than last year's budget. With more liberty lovers in NH, this could happen in all 10 counties! www.concordmonitor.com/article/318632/county-budget-for-2012-okayed

But seriously, I think you may be misunderstanding how NH as a state functions. It functions very differently from most other places in the world. NH has by far the most decentralized state government in the US in how taxes are raised and spending is controlled.

The state government is funded by various things but most of the money comes from the excise/sales taxes on most prepared food, prepared drinks, hotel rooms, car rentals, the regulation of liquor and wine, various fees like the real estate transfer tax and from corporate taxes (which can be partly or wholly avoided by small businesses.) There is no general sales or personal income tax to fund the state government, like in every other state except AK. AK gets massive amounts of money from the federal government and it's corporate taxes, though. NH doesn't get the handouts and doesn't have a ton of oil it can tax.

Counties have few responsibilities in NH. That article I posted above explains what counties do in NH. Counties collect little in taxes but what they do collect if from property taxes. The state Reps. in the county decide the budget so it is important to get as many libertarian state Reps. as possible in NH. With 200 libertarian leaning state Reps., even county could reduce it's budget every year, thus reducing property taxes.

Schools are paid for almost entirely with local funds. Local funds also pay much of the costs of town roads, police, fire and so on. These local funds are mostly property taxes and neither counties nor local governments are allowed to create sales or income taxes. In most towns, the residents of the town get together and go over the proposed budget. The residents may decide to cut things from the budget or add things to the budget. Once the residents have gone over the budget and town issues (this takes a few hours to a couple days, depending on how much the residents want to debate the issues), the property tax rate for the town is sit so that it covers all of the agreed upon spending. The same thing happens with school districts. People have less power to decide the school budget though because there are more state and federal mandates.

Free staters and other liberty lovers are doing a lot to reduce property taxes, and overall taxes and spending. For example, starting in 2012, towns may vote in spending caps, tax caps or both. Some people are trying to work much more choice into government schools including scholarships provided by businesses. Unfortunately, the NH Supreme Court keeps getting in the way. My guess is that most of the people on the NH Supreme Court are statists. They don't like that state taxes are so much lower in NH than all other states (especially in the Northeast) and they don't care about what the NH Constitution says. They just want to increase taxes and so they purposely misinterpret the NH Constitution. It probably annoys then that since taxes are so locally controlled in NH, that people in certain towns pay 1/3 of the property taxes people pay in certain other towns.

For example, the NH Constitution (along with the VT Constitution) may be interpreted to say that there is zero requirement for the state government to spend a single penny on government schools. However, some of the towns/cities in NH didn't like that the state government gave very little money to help fund government schools in NH. The towns sued and the NH Supreme Court ruled that the state government does have to help fund government schools in every district. The state government decided to create a property tax scheme to do this instead of create a state sales or personal income tax. The state decided to add a line to every towns property taxes and call it a state tax, even though the state doesn't get the money, the schools do. The state does raise the money, either, the towns do. It is a very unpopular scheme that both the current Democratic governor and almost all Republicans want to end. People have been trying to end it for years but the very pro-liberty Republicans are preventing it from ending because they are so principled. In order to get enough votes to likely pass a constitutional amendment to end the scheme, the amendment would have to say that it is partially the state's responsibility to pay for government schools. Since the NH Constitution can currently be interpreted that the state has no responsibility to even give a penny, the principled Republicans don't want to give that up.

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 12:44 PM
Too bad that does not extend to the idea of groups of people freely associating with each other carrying said weapons.

Perhaps you are talking about the theory that militias are banned in NH? That's news to me because there is a militia in the county I live in and the man in charge is open about it. I don't know why someone would want to be part of a militia in NH, but whatever.

Someone asked me about this once on here and I posted information about war reenactments and might have even mentioned that I was in one in NH. There is even an old fort in NH where reenactments happen. Heck, my uncle participates in war reenactments in northern NH.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mn7ZYftH8

Crotale
03-21-2012, 12:55 PM
Of course, every 4 years NH is the most important state in the US politically.

What about Iowa? Surely NH is second most important?

bolil
03-21-2012, 01:11 PM
I've never heard such nonsense. Are you seriously trying to say that the FSP is some sort of agency of the New World Order? Not even Alex Jones is that kooky. Despite not believing what they claim to be true myself, I respect the truther-types in the R3VOLUTION. I believe that the infowars folk are important allies, and that they are on the side of liberty. However claiming that the FSP is part of a government genocidal conspiracy is complete bonkers. It's up there with those who believe in lizard people, that Ron Paul is a freemason/illuminati/Bildeberg member and that the government run by grey aliens which use mind control.


Heh, like I said "dont be surprised when the door shuts and you smell gas." Ill be there too.

specsaregood
03-21-2012, 01:17 PM
Have there ever been any Bigfoot sightings in NH? <----- potential deciding factor
http://www.bfro.net/GDB/state_listing.asp?state=nh


Most Recent Reports
Summer 2008, Belknap County (Class A) - Family sees Sasquatch at window several times near Gilford
March 2001, Grafton County (Class B) - Possible track find on outing
September 2004, Rockingham County (Class B) - Vocalizations heard near Rockingham

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 01:37 PM
What about Iowa? Surely NH is second most important?

Not a chance. NH is considered more important than IA. Without NH, we might not even have primaries today. NH has had the 1st and most important primary in the nation since the 1950s. A Ron Paul supporter that is a Republican Committeeman in NH told me that NH created the primary, but I don't know if that is true.

The potential delegates are preselected by the campaigns in NH. The delegates are bound to the primary results. IA has unbound delegates, making a popular vote win in IA less important to campaigns and in the eyes of people that even remotely understand how delegates work.

Do you remember how the primary/caucus schedule took place this year? It was supposed to be IA, NH, SC and then NV. FL moved up and than NV was set to move up because of what FL did and/or pressure from Romney's campaign. NH played chicken with NV, saying that it may hold the NH Primary in December. NV backed down and changed it's caucus until after FL. Then NH set a date and IA was thankful that it didn't have to move it's caucus date.

Let's look at the number of candidates. 30 Republicans and 14 Democrats were on the ballot in NH. How many were on the ballot in IA? 1/4 of that? 1/8 of that?

Let's look at the polling. Polling started in NH in April 2010. Polling started in IA in May 2010, over a month later. Even though, the IA Caucus happens first. there were 58 polls in NH and 50 polls in IA according to Real Clear Politics.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/nh/new_hampshire_republican_presidential_primary-1581.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/ia/iowa_republican_presidential_primary-1588.html

Look at debates/forums. Wikipedia says there were 4 debates in NH and 3 in IA. That doesn't count the little known candidates debate in NH, the Gingrich/Huntsman Lincoln-Douglas Debate in NH and the Granite State Patriots Liberty PAC Forum in NH, the Republican Presidential Forum On Manufacturing in IA or the Iowa Faith & Freedom Coalition Fall Presidential Forum in IA. Either way, there were more actual debates in NH than IA.

The media covered both states a lot! However, it continued covering NH for an additional week. In fact, after the complete debacle that was the IA Caucus this year, expect it to lose some credibility and be even less important than NH next time around.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
Heh, like I said "dont be surprised when the door shuts and you smell gas." Ill be there too.

I know your statement is meant figuratively but even so it defies logic. You cannot, even figuratively, shut the door to a state and start the burners. You're not making any sense I'm afraid.

goRPaul
03-21-2012, 01:56 PM
Not this year, but I'm seriously considering moving to NH by the end of the decade.

bolil
03-21-2012, 02:17 PM
I know your statement is meant figuratively but even so it defies logic. You cannot, even figuratively, shut the door to a state and start the burners. You're not making any sense I'm afraid.

Pffft, so you cant quarantine a geographical area the size of NH? Okay dude, cause the Calvary does not use helicopters... they still ride horses. Oh, and predator drones are really just a figment of our collective imaginations. And fences, well those haven't existed since Robert Frost's time...

Crotale
03-21-2012, 02:20 PM
Pffft, so you cant quarantine a geographical area the size of NH? Okay dude, cause the Calvary does not use helicopters... they still ride horses. Oh, and predator drones are really just a figment of our collective imaginations. And fences, well those haven't existed since Robert Frost's time...

No, you really couldn't. There would be an uprising.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 02:22 PM
Not this year, but I'm seriously considering moving to NH by the end of the decade.

You don't have to move straight away, you can sign the statement of intent and move later when the ticker gets to 20,000.

http://freestateproject.org/

bolil
03-21-2012, 02:26 PM
No, you really couldn't. There would be an uprising.

A mass migration to NH would be considered an uprising. They'll play Lincolns game and force y'all to fire the first shot, ala fort sumter, and give themselves all the pretense they need. I'm all about this project, I just see it ending in violence. Heh, an uprising of rifles vs predator drones... yeah that should end well for the rifles. I'll be there too, so help me god. You think genocide (politicide?) can't come here? Then you had better get your head outta your ass cause it damn well can. Best to go into these things with eyes open if your going to be the target.

EDIT: That being said, there is strength in numbers VIVE LE FSP

RonPaulMall
03-21-2012, 03:03 PM
NH is too cold for me, so I'll never join. I am considering starting a Free City State Project and moving to Key West though.

specsaregood
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
//

kahless
03-21-2012, 03:31 PM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

^Exactly this. How can you have a "Free state project" that does not address the fundamental issue of property taxes. Property taxes are the number 1 obstacle to truly living free in this country, followed by zoning laws and building codes.

Renters also forget that landlords pass on those high property taxes to them thus meaning higher rents. Property taxes are a good indication of what kind of people you have living in the community. You can always easy to tell Communists, Socialist and Democrat party areas since those regions have the highest property, school taxes and rents.

kahless
03-21-2012, 03:42 PM
We're working on it.

The best thing to do is get involved in town issues, make sure that the selectmen aren't writing blanks checks each time some cop, fireman, or schoolteacher comes wandering in, wheezing that they need a new 30 million dollar facility.

Also, be very careful about what town you might want to move to.

The tax rates vary wildly from town to town.

http://www.revenue.nh.gov/munc_prop/2011PropertyTaxRatesRelatedData.htm

It varies from $1 per thousand to over $30 per thousand of assessed value.

Most places are in the $15 to $20 range.

Which is, of course, $1500 to $2000 per year on a home assessed at $100,000.

Which, considering that you pay basically no other taxes on income or purchases, it's a bargain, I think.

It is still a precarious existence. Too many factors can cause you to end up out on the street if you fall one dollar behind in property taxes. I have seen people own their home for years and never miss a property tax payment lose their homes to government thugs. All it takes is to fall one dollar behind and these government leeches will take your home, throw you on the street and make you dependent on them.

That is no way living free.

Schiff_FTW
03-21-2012, 03:44 PM
^Exactly this. How can you have a "Free state project" that does not address the fundamental issue of property taxes. Property taxes are the number 1 obstacle to truly living free in this country, followed by zoning laws and building codes.

Renters also forget that landlords pass on those high property taxes to them thus meaning higher rents. Property taxes are a good indication of what kind of people you have living in the community. You can always easy to tell Communists, Socialist and Democrat party areas since those regions have the highest property, school taxes and rents.

There are a number of townships in NH with an effective mill rate of zero, according to http://www.joeshimkus.com/NH-Tax-Rates.pdf

Here is a cabin for sale in Success, NH with taxes listed as $0: http://www.beangroup.com/real_estate/listings/Homes/NH/Success/1372460

So I don't understand this complaint. Even if you don't want to live in the middle of nowhere (by NH standards), there are a number of towns, some barely an hour's drive from Boston, with a mill rate under 10. I don't know about the rest of the country, but, heck, in my current town, a suburb of Hartford, CT, the mill rate is more than three times that, and that's just the beginning of the tax burden.

tfurrh
03-21-2012, 03:45 PM
That is no way living free.

I think addressing issues like this is why the FSP was started. :toady:

↑ thousandth post, btw

cucucachu0000
03-21-2012, 03:46 PM
im trying to convince my girlfriend to go to nursing school there. she might like it and want to stay.

Crotale
03-21-2012, 04:13 PM
You think genocide (politicide?) can't come here? Then you had better get your head outta your ass cause it damn well can.

http://pigroll.com/img/how_fucking_fascinating.jpg

Crotale
03-21-2012, 04:14 PM
NH is too cold for me, so I'll never join.

Man up you great big wimp. :p

What's more important to you, freedom or the weather?

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 04:20 PM
It is still a precarious existence. Too many factors can cause you to end up out on the street if you fall one dollar behind in property taxes. I have seen people own their home for years and never miss a property tax payment lose their homes to government thugs. All it takes is to fall one dollar behind and these government leeches will take your home, throw you on the street and make you dependent on them.

That is no way living free.

Where in the US is there no property tax?

I agree, it is a taking, a theft, like other taxes.

Unlike income taxes, they'll just take your home, instead of throwing you in jail, or shackling you to indentured servitude for the rest of your life.

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 04:21 PM
Man up you great big wimp. :p

What's more important to you, freedom or the weather?

I know, I know, jeez...you people never heard of coats and long johns?

And when ya'll are baking and searing in 120 heat and humidity my windows will be open with a fresh breeze blowing through.

Pericles
03-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Pffft, so you cant quarantine a geographical area the size of NH? Okay dude, cause the Calvary does not use helicopters... they still ride horses. Oh, and predator drones are really just a figment of our collective imaginations. And fences, well those haven't existed since Robert Frost's time...

Calvary is a hill near Jerusalem. Cavalry is the mounted arm of warfare, who are masters of maneuver based combat.

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Man up you great big wimp. :p

What's more important to you, freedom or the weather?

Actually, it was 85 in parts of NH last week. It was in the 80s yesterday, was in the 80s today and will be in the 80s on Thursday.

It is understandable if someone doesn't want to live in NH every single day of the year because of the cold winter. I know a couple folks that go down to FL to live with family or friends for 20-60 days per year. Some of my family takes 2-3 vacations a year, often during winter, frequenting HI and the Caribbean. There are snowbirds in NH, for sure. There is nothing wrong with having a trailer in FL, AL, AZ, NM, TX or some other place that is hot. I know a family that lives in an RV. They live in the South in the winter and in NH most of the rest of the year.

There are other options. I know a couple area families that heat their houses entirely with wood that they chop down. Not only does it help keep the men healthy, it make sure that they have a large supply of inexpensive heat. If someone wants their house to be 75 in the winter, they can do it. Just keep the wood in the stove. Vehicles may be stored in heated garages. Another option is to have a portable car starter. You can start you car 5 minutes early from inside your house so that it is warm when you are ready to drive away.

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 04:54 PM
Where in the US is there no property tax?

As far as I know, only remote areas of NH and AK are without property taxes. If kahless wants to live in an area without property taxes, perhaps kahless will move to NH or AK :)

Schiff_FTW
03-21-2012, 05:35 PM
As far as I know, only remote areas of NH and AK are without property taxes.

Yes, I posted an example a few posts up. That is why I am perplexed by this idea that NH has abnormally high property taxes. I remember hearing it even before the Free State Project came into existence. I guess other parts of the country must have very low property taxes, but in New England it's usually what funds the majority of the public school system (which obviously isn't cheap) and the local cops. The cool thing about NH is everything is decided on the local level, so it's easy to have a lot of influence just by being one of the few who 'show up'.

There are still some things NH is slightly behind on, such as marijuana law reform. But it looks like they're catching up with the help of newly elected libertarian Republicans!



http://www.mpp.org/states/new-hampshire/

When the 2010 election resulted in a Republican landslide, many feared the movement to reform marijuana laws in New Hampshire would experience a major setback. Instead, in 2011 the Republican-dominated House of Representatives passed a medical marijuana bill by an astonishing 221-96 margin. HB 442 was then approved by the Senate Health and Human Services Committee, but sadly, the full Senate was deadlocked over the bill and chose to table it rather than bring it to a vote.

Fortunately, the bill is being reintroduced in 2012 as SB 409, and three Republican senators have taken the lead as sponsors. With Sen. Jim Forsythe (R-Strafford) as prime sponsor, we are more confident than ever in our chances of getting this bill passed by the Republican-controlled Senate.

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 05:57 PM
There are still some things NH is slightly behind on, such as marijuana law reform. But it looks like they're catching up with the help of newly elected libertarian Republicans!

Even though NH is designed to have the weakest governor in the county, the governor is still able to veto. We would have medical marijuana in NH if it wasn't for Gov. Lynch and his veto. The House passed a decrim bill and a hemp bill this year.

Even today there was good news in NH.

NH GOP Kills Gay Marriage Repeal
March 21, 2012 by Jason Sorens
http://pileusblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/nh-gop-kills-gay-marriage-repeal/


The New Hampshire House, dominated 3-to-1 by Republicans, has just voted by an approximately 2-to-1 majority to kill a bill that would have repealed same-sex marriage While Republicans in other states have been moving for years to prevent or even get a constitutional ban on gay marriage, Republicans in NH refuse to even go to civil unions. They decided to keep gay marriage in NH.


Meanwhile, the NH Senate just passed a bill to give businesses tax credits for funding private and out-of-district public school scholarships. Ron Paul Co-chair Sen. Jim Forsythe was the main player behind this bill.

WilliamShrugged
03-21-2012, 06:28 PM
I'm really pressing hard on myself to save so i can move up there... I should have moved up there last year :( now i have to build up my savings and look to see if my job in banking can get me a good start up there. In a year or two well see.

kahless
03-21-2012, 08:22 PM
I took this from 2008 Tax Foundation data of 1822 tracked US counties. The lower the rank indicates the higher county property tax rate. There are more than a 1100 US counties that have lower property taxes than the lowest NH county listed.

County / Tax as a percent of home value / Rank

Belknap County, New Hampshire 1.44% 317
Carroll County, New Hampshire 0.99% 672
Cheshire County, New Hampshire 1.99% 58
Coos County, New Hampshire 2.00% 57
Grafton County, New Hampshire 1.65% 190
Hillsborough County, New Hampshire 1.69% 170
Merrimack County, New Hampshire 1.86% 98
Rockingham County, New Hampshire 1.61% 210
Strafford County, New Hampshire 1.80% 123
Sullivan County, New Hampshire 1.89% 87


Median Property taxes paid

Rank / County / Amount
100 Belknap County, New Hampshire $3,436
273 Carroll County, New Hampshire $2,364
57 Cheshire County, New Hampshire $4,020
234 Coos County, New Hampshire $2,544
98 Grafton County, New Hampshire $3,454
33 Hillsborough County, New Hampshire $4,741
35 Merrimack County, New Hampshire $4,581
25 Rockingham County, New Hampshire $5,196
47 Strafford County, New Hampshire $4,196
96 Sullivan County, New Hampshire $3,475

As someone pointed out here I am not taking into consideration areas in these counties that are without property taxes. I see a link by another poster and check only a few of those places that turned out to have 0 population which calls into question whether they are state lands and/or having buildable property.

Anti Federalist
03-21-2012, 08:34 PM
I took this from 2008 Tax Foundation data of 1822 tracked US counties. The lower the rank indicates the higher county property tax rate. There are more than a 1100 US counties that have lower property taxes than the lowest NH county listed.

County / Tax as a percent of home value / Rank

Belknap County, New Hampshire 1.44% 317
Carroll County, New Hampshire 0.99% 672
Cheshire County, New Hampshire 1.99% 58
Coos County, New Hampshire 2.00% 57
Grafton County, New Hampshire 1.65% 190
Hillsborough County, New Hampshire 1.69% 170
Merrimack County, New Hampshire 1.86% 98
Rockingham County, New Hampshire 1.61% 210
Strafford County, New Hampshire 1.80% 123
Sullivan County, New Hampshire 1.89% 87


Median Property taxes paid

Rank / County / Amount
100 Belknap County, New Hampshire $3,436
273 Carroll County, New Hampshire $2,364
57 Cheshire County, New Hampshire $4,020
234 Coos County, New Hampshire $2,544
98 Grafton County, New Hampshire $3,454
33 Hillsborough County, New Hampshire $4,741
35 Merrimack County, New Hampshire $4,581
25 Rockingham County, New Hampshire $5,196
47 Strafford County, New Hampshire $4,196
96 Sullivan County, New Hampshire $3,475

As someone pointed out here I am not taking into consideration areas in these counties that are without property taxes. I see a link by another poster and check only a few of those places that turned out to have 0 population which calls into question whether they are state lands and/or having buildable property.

Yes, the rates are higher than what they are in many areas of the country.

It needs to be addressed and we're working on it.

Ain't nothin perfect...

Keith and stuff
03-21-2012, 08:58 PM
It is true, property taxes tend to be high is certain parts of WA, OR, CA, IL, TX, FL and every state in the Northeast. NH is included in those states. Are overall state taxes lowest in NH? Yes. Are overall combined state and local taxes near the lowest in NH? Yes. However, people in parts of NH like high property taxes. As I mentioned a day or two ago, people in Rockingham County and in Portsmouth, NH like high property taxes.

As for the places in NH without property taxes, they are unincorporated townships. Many of them are purchases or grants that were issued while NH was still part of England or shortly after. Some of them do not have buildable land or people. Some of them do. There are also places in NH with very low property taxes, places with buildable land.

You are aware of Grafton, NH, right? It's likely the freest place in the continuous 48 states. More liberty lovers continue to move there. It may end up becoming the beacon showing the industrialized world that liberty can work.

Crotale
03-22-2012, 03:52 AM
I don't see how property taxes are worse than an income tax? All taxation is theft and forced labour, but as I said earlier, I'd rather have my money stolen from me through property tax than income tax.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 05:16 AM
I'm curious how old most of you folks are that are planning on moving to NH, and how established you are in your careers. There is no way that we would ever leave PA to move to NH. We are in our early 40's, I have a successful businesses here, family (including aging parents), friends - a lifetime of connections. We have a great home that we have put a lot of work into, and at this stage of our life does not cost much for us to maintain. Moving to NH would require us to start over from scratch. At our age, and considering all that we have established here, it would be foolish for us to do so.

kahless
03-22-2012, 08:46 AM
I don't see how property taxes are worse than an income tax? All taxation is theft and forced labour, but as I said earlier, I'd rather have my money stolen from me through property tax than income tax.

Property taxes ensure forced labor in the governments economic system. Without property taxes you could live freely on your property, live off your land and trade with others. Therefore you could avoid any forced participation by our government slave masters.

Hopefully FSP will eventually do something about it. Where ever I am at I plan to dedicate the rest of my life fighting our authoritarian governments restrictions on owning property by forced private property taxation. I will fight our Communist political parties, our money grubbing teachers unions that want to make us all subservient to them as well as my local, state and county governments, because living freely on private property is basic right of freedom.

fighting = politically and peacefully.

kahless
03-22-2012, 09:02 AM
I'm curious how old most of you folks are that are planning on moving to NH, and how established you are in your careers. There is no way that we would ever leave PA to move to NH. We are in our early 40's, I have a successful businesses here, family (including aging parents), friends - a lifetime of connections. We have a great home that we have put a lot of work into, and at this stage of our life does not cost much for us to maintain. Moving to NH would require us to start over from scratch. At our age, and considering all that we have established here, it would be foolish for us to do so.

I am in my 40s also so a long way off from retirement but it is something that needs to be considered now. I have seen first hand from seniors whom worked and owned property all their lives only to be forced in ill health to slave to our authoritarian governments to pay school property taxes for other peoples kids and pay services they do not want or ask for, so they are not thrown off their land.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 09:42 AM
I am in my 40s also so a long way off from retirement but it is something that needs to be considered now. I have seen first hand from seniors whom worked and owned property all their lives only to be forced in ill health to slave to our authoritarian governments to pay school property taxes for other peoples kids and pay services they do not want or ask for, so they are not thrown off their land.

Right and I understand that. It is a nice goal for those who are trying to achieve it, however there is little if any incentive for someone like myself other than a plan and a dream that may or may not come about. Sure I will save money with no state income tax and no sales tax, but I would have to find a way to replace a sizable income. I am self-employed and have been all my life, walking away from a business like I have would be foolish for the relatively small savings of taxes. And that doesn't take into account the aspect of family, friends, etc.

So what is the incentive for someone like myself that owns a home, has a large family and friend network, a business that provides a sizable income, and ties to the community?

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 10:17 AM
Right and I understand that. It is a nice goal for those who are trying to achieve it, however there is little if any incentive for someone like myself other than a plan and a dream that may or may not come about. Sure I will save money with no state income tax and no sales tax, but I would have to find a way to replace a sizable income. I am self-employed and have been all my life, walking away from a business like I have would be foolish for the relatively small savings of taxes. And that doesn't take into account the aspect of family, friends, etc.

So what is the incentive for someone like myself that owns a home, has a large family and friend network, a business that provides a sizable income, and ties to the community?

You obviously are not the target market. But to many young people who haven't really settled down the Project is an attractive option. When I went to the FSP Liberty Forum a few years back I'd estimate at least half the people there were under 30. Which is great for the future of the movement, especially if it keeps making tangible gains, as people will stay active if they see results.

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 10:53 AM
Schiff_FTW, a guy that worked for Schiff in NYC moved to NH as part of the FSP last year. If you listen to Schiff's show, you may have heard about it.

The target market for the FSP is pretty much everyone that signs the state of intent. It is sometimes easier for people from the Northeast, like PA or NJ, to move to NH. We have had lots of movers from PA, including a few last year. A couple of PA families created the Bardo Farm in NH which now has an annual Bardo Farm Fest. It may have had 100 people last year. It's a mix of friends and family from PA and liberty lovers in NH. A really interesting event. There is another married couple from PA that are doing great in NH. The wife works in financial services (really big in NH) and the husband still does the same job he did while in PA, I beleive. Another guy that moved from PA traveled to NV to volunteer for Paul in the NV Caucus. Heck, I have a roommate that moved here from PA :)

One of the top firearms/weapons defense attorneys in the nation moved here from NJ. He practices law in at least NJ and NH. He has done a lot of work to reduce firearm and knife regulations in NH. The Speaker of the NH House is originally from NJ :)

If someone has kids, I especially encourage a move. Not only is NH by far the best state to raise a child (lowest child poverty, lowest crime, lowest teen prego rate, lowest infant mortal., lowest risk of parent killing child...) but it is also the freest state. It makes sense to raise children in a freer environment. Children learn as they grow. Perhaps that's why children and adults tend to be smarter in NH than other states and do wonderful at smartness/intelligence state to state comparisons.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 10:57 AM
You obviously are not the target market. But to many young people who haven't really settled down the Project is an attractive option. When I went to the FSP Liberty Forum a few years back I'd estimate at least half the people there were under 30. Which is great for the future of the movement, especially if it keeps making tangible gains, as people will stay active if they see results.

I think the issue with this for many is that it is a dream, and while it is a nice one, it is still a plan laid out on paper rather than something concrete. Even going back to my mid 20's I would have have walked away from all that I had achieved at that point for something that was hypothetical. Even in my mid 20's I had my own business, owned a home and had family ties. My roots here today are far stronger than they were 20 years ago, but nonetheless I still had roots.

I think it is a nice idea, but it is a very hard sell unless someone has little, if any, career success and family ties.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 10:59 AM
Schiff_FTW, a guy that worked for Schiff in NYC moved to NH as part of the FSP last year. If you listen to Schiff's show, you may have heard about it.

The target market for the FSP is pretty much everyone that signs the state of intent. It is sometimes easier for people from the Northeast, like PA or NJ, to move to NH. We have had lots of movers from PA, including a few last year. A couple of PA families created the Bardo Farm in NH which now has an annual Bardo Farm Fest. It may have had 100 people last year. It's a mix of friends and family from PA and liberty lovers in NH. A really interesting event. There is another married couple from PA that are doing great in NH. The wife works in financial services (really big in NH) and the husband still does the same job he did while in PA, I beleive. Another guy that moved from PA traveled to NV to volunteer for Paul in the NV Caucus. Heck, I have a roommate that moved here from PA :)

One of the top firearms/weapons defense attorneys in the nation moved here from NJ. He practices law in at least NJ and NH. He has done a lot of work to reduce firearm and knife regulations in NH. The Speaker of the NH House is originally from NJ :)

If someone has kids, I especially encourage a move. Not only is NH by far the best state to raise a child (lowest child poverty, lowest crime, lowest teen prego rate, lowest infant mortal., lowest risk of parent killing child...) but it is the freest state. It makes sense to raise children in a freer environment. Children learn as they grow. Perhaps that's why children and adults tend to be smarter in NH than other states and do wonderful at smartness/intelligence state to state comparisons.

But what is the incentive for someone who has already built for themselves a very nice life where they currently live, other than the ideology behind the movement. I just don't see the selling point.

Liberty4life
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM
We need a nationwide free state project, this country has been polarized and divided, we live in two country's now.
One country is entirely taken over by illegals in every sense of the word.
Unfortunately most of the levers of power are also controlled by this "bandit" country.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 11:17 AM
But what is the incentive for someone who has already built for themselves a very nice life where they currently live, other than the ideology behind the movement. I just don't see the selling point.

Maybe so your family doesn't get murdered by cops? Just a thought.

kahless
03-22-2012, 11:21 AM
FSP should look at banding together on the county level and having like minded counties forming a separate state instead of trying to take over the entire state. FSP will always be held back and denied their right to self determination by the heavily populated Socialist counties.

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 11:21 AM
I think the issue with this for many is that it is a dream, and while it is a nice one, it is still a plan laid out on paper rather than something concrete. Even going back to my mid 20's I would have have walked away from all that I had achieved at that point for something that was hypothetical. Even in my mid 20's I had my own business, owned a home and had family ties. My roots here today are far stronger than they were 20 years ago, but nonetheless I still had roots.

I think it is a nice idea, but it is a very hard sell unless someone has little, if any, career success and family ties.

I disagree. I'm 28 and intend to move to NH within a few years after my current job winds down. It would be foolish for me to stay in CT with the ridiculous taxes and otherwise very high cost of living. I want to start my own business, and CT is a horrible place to do that. I watch what my boss has to put up with and I'm amazed we haven't gone under yet. It is like CT wants small businesses to fail.

There are many reasons why people would want to move to NH, just because you're not persuaded doesn't mean others aren't (indeed over a 1000 have been so far).

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 11:40 AM
I think the issue with this for many is that it is a dream, and while it is a nice one, it is still a plan laid out on paper rather than something concrete. Even going back to my mid 20's I would have have walked away from all that I had achieved at that point for something that was hypothetical. Even in my mid 20's I had my own business, owned a home and had family ties. My roots here today are far stronger than they were 20 years ago, but nonetheless I still had roots.

I think it is a nice idea, but it is a very hard sell unless someone has little, if any, career success and family ties.

It doesn't have to be hypothetical. If even a fraction of this movement agreed to move to NH, it would be a guaranteed success.

Basically the problem is, very few are taking the FSP seriously, because very few are taking the FSP seriously. It's circular. We just need to find a way to change perception of the project so that more people view it as a viable option.

I believe extremely strongly that those currently trying the Free Country Project are destined to fail, because the country doesn't want freedom and will fight them at every turn. I believe if they can just accept this to be true, they will basically be left with 2 options

1) Live as a slave
2) Take their freedom back

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 11:41 AM
FSP should look at banding together on the county level and having like minded counties forming a separate state instead of trying to take over the entire state. FSP will always be held back and denied their right to self determination by the heavily populated Socialist counties.

A worthy proposition.

bolil
03-22-2012, 11:42 AM
Calvary is a hill near Jerusalem. Cavalry is the mounted arm of warfare, who are masters of maneuver based combat.

Phew, what would I do without a grammar pig? Cheers mate, I lost sleep over that typo.

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 11:49 AM
FSP should look at banding together on the county level and having like minded counties forming a separate state instead of trying to take over the entire state. FSP will always be held back and denied their right to self determination by the heavily populated Socialist counties.

Counties don't have very many functions in NH outside of court proceedings. They are making tangible progress at the state level, so your statement isn't really supported by the facts on the ground.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 11:55 AM
Counties don't have very many functions in NH outside of court proceedings. They are making tangible progress at the state level, so your statement isn't really supported by the facts on the ground.

I think you missed his point. He meant to make a new state, not to take over the county court proceedings.

If it's possible to take over the entire state of NH - fantastic! Otherwise, there's no reason not to focus on a smaller geographic area, and simply nullify the state's influences in that geographic area.

Crotale
03-22-2012, 12:05 PM
Property taxes ensure forced labor in the governments economic system. Without property taxes you could live freely on your property, live off your land and trade with others. Therefore you could avoid any forced participation by our government slave masters.

Hopefully FSP will eventually do something about it. Where ever I am at I plan to dedicate the rest of my life fighting our authoritarian governments restrictions on owning property by forced private property taxation. I will fight our Communist political parties, our money grubbing teachers unions that want to make us all subservient to them as well as my local, state and county governments, because living freely on private property is basic right of freedom.

fighting = politically and peacefully.

I don't disagree mate. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I understand that taxation is forced labour and theft, no matter how it is expropriated. All I was saying is that I would rather have a property tax than income tax. The ultimate goal is for no tax, definately. Perhaps everyone moving to New Hampshire would be a good method of achieving that goal?

Crotale
03-22-2012, 12:10 PM
Right and I understand that. It is a nice goal for those who are trying to achieve it, however there is little if any incentive for someone like myself other than a plan and a dream that may or may not come about. Sure I will save money with no state income tax and no sales tax, but I would have to find a way to replace a sizable income. I am self-employed and have been all my life, walking away from a business like I have would be foolish for the relatively small savings of taxes. And that doesn't take into account the aspect of family, friends, etc.

So what is the incentive for someone like myself that owns a home, has a large family and friend network, a business that provides a sizable income, and ties to the community?

The answer for you my friend is to stay where you are. :) Obviously you are happy where you are, you have friends and family, a successful business and a nice home. If you don't think that you could maintain such a standard of living in NH, then the FSP isn't suited to you.

However, you definately need to make sure you attend PorcFest (http://porcfest.com/)and the Liberty Forum!

mikeforliberty
03-22-2012, 12:21 PM
I'm moving there in 2016

tbone717
03-22-2012, 12:45 PM
Maybe so your family doesn't get murdered by cops? Just a thought.

Well I find that offensive since I have many family members and friends who are/were cops. None of them went around murdering people. It is this type of talk that makes libertarians look lie a bunch of nutcases.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 12:46 PM
The answer for you my friend is to stay where you are. :) Obviously you are happy where you are, you have friends and family, a successful business and a nice home. If you don't think that you could maintain such a standard of living in NH, then the FSP isn't suited to you.

However, you definately need to make sure you attend PorcFest (http://porcfest.com/)and the Liberty Forum!

Oh i know I have no intention of moving. I am just trying to see the selling point. Like Schiff_FTW stated he is looking to start a business, that is a good target. I just have a hard time seeing the selling point to draw people that are already established in a career and/or have family ties. That is the majority of people, which could be the reason so few have actually moved there in the 10 years this has been around.

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 12:59 PM
Oh i know I have no intention of moving. I am just trying to see the selling point.

The selling point is obvious. If you are a libertarian activist and you want to be somewhere that you can help work toward real, tangible results, then there is no better place to be than NH. Even as it is, according to numerous studies NH is already one of the most free and prosperous states in the country.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
The selling point is obvious. If you are a libertarian activist and you want to be somewhere that you can help work toward real, tangible results, then there is no better place to be than NH. Even as it is, according to numerous studies NH is already one of the most free and prosperous states in the country.

Not trying to argue with you, but it isn't that obvious. Activism is great, I have been doing it for 25 years, but aside from activism people have lives, career and family. Like I said earlier, other than the people that have virtually no ties to their current area through their career and family, I cannot see this being attractive to people. It reminds me of the hippie colonies of the 60's. They had a nice idea, but the only people that could realistically be a part of it, were people who had absolutely nothing to lose and nothing to leave behind.

It is a nice concept, but I can see why in 10 years so few people have moved there for this. The ability to move relies primarily on finding people that have nothing to leave behind.

specsaregood
03-22-2012, 01:53 PM
It is a nice concept, but I can see why in 10 years so few people have moved there for this. The ability to move relies primarily on finding people that have nothing to leave behind.

having nothing to leave behind is a glass-half empty POV. some people enjoy new experiences. i've lived in 2handsfull of states and countries, not because i had nothing to leave behind but because i had more things to find. but, yes; obviously it tends to be easier when you are young.

Johnny Appleseed
03-22-2012, 02:03 PM
I am making the entire planet my "free state" project...I am an inhabitant of earth loyal to none sworn to fun

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 02:05 PM
Not trying to argue with you, but it isn't that obvious. Activism is great, I have been doing it for 25 years, but aside from activism people have lives, career and family. Like I said earlier, other than the people that have virtually no ties to their current area through their career and family, I cannot see this being attractive to people.

Some people don't like the current climate where they live. Many people think it is too hot in the South or that there are too many bugs in FL. Some people move because they have a good job offer somewhere else. Some people move to get away from crime. Some people move for a change. Some people move to live in a rural area. These are all common reasons why people move. Some people move to be closer to the mountains, the ocean or both. I'm not talking about just young people, but people in their 30s, 40s and even retired people. This type of stuff happens everyday and is usually not because people have no strong connections where they are. After all, it is easy to visit people with cars, trains and planes. Most of the people I know take vacations, have phones, have the internet (skype, facebook, forums, email, twitter...) and know how to mail a letter. Honestly, I cannot even see where you are coming from with your points.

I think most liberty activists are OK with living in dangerous areas without much freedom, knowing that they are losing freedom every year. They are OK with knowing that the government continues to make it harder for them to do business and every day they are more likely to be charged for something that isn't wrong at all. All liberty activists aren't, though. Some liberty activists want to live in a world where freedom is on the increase. They want to help be a part of that fundamental change. They are passionate about making the world a better place.

Of course, New Hampshire doesn't just offer the ability to be part of the positive change to liberty activists. It also offers the freest current state, the easiest possibility of getting elected, mountains, large lakes, rivers, the ocean, the lowest crime in the US, the lowest poverty in the US, the richest state in the US, near the healthiest state in the US, near the smartest state in the US, low pollution, a rural lifestyle, a change of pace, adventure and so on.


It is a nice concept, but I can see why in 10 years so few people have moved there for this.
There wasn't a vote on which state until a few years into the project. The original plan was not even to ask people to move until we get 20,000 signers. That's still the plan most people sign up under. People that have already made the move are considered early movers.

rhelwig
03-22-2012, 02:06 PM
It is a nice concept, but I can see why in 10 years so few people have moved there for this.

I just want to point out that those of us that have moved, including many families, have done so before we are even supposed to have. The original idea was that people only start moving when the 20,000 number was reached.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:06 PM
having nothing to leave behind is a half-glass full POV. some people enjoy new experiences. i've lived in 2handsfull of states and countries, not because i had nothing to leave behind but because i had more things to find. but, yes; obviously it tends to be easier when you are young.

Agreed, you need to be younger and without many roots. Family, friends and career is what keeps most people tied to their area. For example a friend of mine are moving from PA to NC to take a better position with his company. But he turned that position down for several years because of family. His wife's father passed away this year, and now they do not have anything holding them to this area, so it is a lot easier for them to move. But he is doing so for a major career advancement, not for the thrill of adventure.

Since I started looking at this concept again, I have been thinking of all my close friends and seeing if any of them would be able to pack up and move to NH for something like this, and honestly I could not think of any of them that would have the ability to do so. They would be essentially starting over again, and for most people that have attained a certain measure of success in life, the risk far outweighs the reward.

My neighbor next door to me, for example. He has been with the same company for 15 years. Has a nice amount of time off per year for vacation, lives 10 mins from work and can come home everyday for lunch to see his youngest kids, they are active in the church (where they have been members for their whole lives), they are active in sports, all their family lives nearby and visits frequently. Someone like that would never relocate.

I think this is in large part why over 10 years they have only had a small amount of people sign the pledge and an even smaller amount move.

The good thing is though, we can be activists right where we live and work. Our state Senate district has one of the most sound libertarians in all of PA as our senator. We have great representation here in our local and county government, and that influence is growing. Property taxes are low here in my county (actually lower than most parts of NH) So for those that can't pack up everything and move to NH, there is more than enough you can do in your own backyard.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:10 PM
There wasn't a vote on which state until a few years into the project. The original plan was not even to ask people to move until we get 20,000 signers. That's still the plan most people sign up under. People that have already made the move are considered early movers.

The group was founded in 01 and voted in 03. I remember this because I followed the discussions. If I recall, there were 3 groups NH, WY and SC. The other two groups started their own Free State type projects as well.

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/
http://christianexodus.org/

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 02:19 PM
The group was founded in 01 and voted in 03.

Thanks, my bad.


http://christianexodus.org/

I don't mind that some people formed a group with somewhat similar goals in Wyoming. However, I just want to make sure everyone is clear (and I am not saying you said anything one way or another on this) that the FSP is not connected to christian exodus in anyway. It is true that the person that founded christian exodus claims that he heard about the FSP and used that as an example. Christian exodus isn't a liberty group/project/organization and I don't want to have any connection or association with it. It appears to be a very small group (even smaller than FSW), but I still don't want to be associated with it and what it does in anyway :)

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:20 PM
The group was founded in 01 and voted in 03. I remember this because I followed the discussions. If I recall, there were 3 groups NH, WY and SC. The other two groups started their own Free State type projects as well.

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/
http://christianexodus.org/

Again, while I do think this is a noble pursuit I can see many reasons why people are reluctant or unwilling to sign up for it. When you have very strong bonds with family and friends in an area, along with a stable and successful career - those ties are very difficult to break. It is not an indications of one's passion for the liberty movement if they are willing to join up with FSP, as one can be just as active where they are right now.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 02:22 PM
I am just trying to see the selling point.

The selling point is to make what you go around here preaching all day long, actually work.

To get involved politically, and have it actually make a difference, instead of your efforts getting washed away in a sea of apathetic "democracy".

FrankRep
03-22-2012, 02:22 PM
I am making the entire planet my "free state" project...I am an inhabitant of earth loyal to none sworn to fun
You will need to control the politics of your state to have a "free state." Good luck controlling the politics of the planet.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:23 PM
Thanks, my bad.



I don't mind that some people formed a group with somewhat similar goals in Wyoming. However, I just want to make sure everyone is clear (and I am not saying you said anything one way or another on this) that the FSP is not connected to christian exodus in anyway. It is true that the person that founded christian exodus claims that he heard about the FSP and used that as an example. Christian exodus isn't a liberty group/project/organization and I don't want to have any connection or association with it. It appears to be a very small group (even smaller than FSW), but I still don't want to be associated with it and what it does in anyway :)

I think this might be the remnants of the SC folks if anything does still exist.

http://www.southcarolinarepublic.org/

Christian exodus looks substantially different that I recall it when it first launched. Originally IIRC it was essentially a paleo-conservative movement.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:25 PM
The selling point is to make what you go around here preaching all day long, actually work.

To get involved politically, and have it actually make a difference, instead of your efforts getting washed away in a sea of apathetic "democracy".

Understand that part of it, but activism (as much as I do it) is not my entire life. I have a business, family, friends and other things that have absolutely nothing to do with political activism -- many others are the same way. My point being it is a very hard sell for someone that has a successful career and an extended family in a given area to leave that just so they can become more politically active and enjoy the benefits of a lower tax and regulatory burden.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Question: Has anyone from FSP moved there and started a business that could employ hundreds if not thousands of people? That would seem to be a good thought, and a way to attract more people to the concept.

Jonathanm
03-22-2012, 02:37 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much demand there is for computer programmers in NH? I'm looking to get a degree in this field in the future, and NH seems like an ideal liberty-friendly place.

How are the police up there, particularly when concerned with the likes of the *gasp* evil marihuana? It'd be great to live in a state that wouldn't raid me, kill my parrot "because it's dangerous", and then proceed to steal my house because I decided to avoid the likes of xanax and kidney-destroying bipolar medications.

Also, AF and donnay are husband/wife? If so, coolest couple ever.

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 02:41 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much demand there is for computer programmers in NH? I'm looking to get a degree in this field in the future, and NH seems like an ideal liberty-friendly place.

How are the police up there, particularly when concerned with the likes of the *gasp* evil marihuana? It'd be great to live in a state that wouldn't raid me, kill my parrot "because it's dangerous", and then proceed to steal my house because I decided to avoid the likes of xanax and kidney-destroying bipolar medications.

Also, AF and donnay are husband/wife? If so, coolest couple ever.

Nashua is known for its tech sector. As far as marijuana, real progress is finally being made largely thanks to the efforts of FSP movers (see http://www.mpp.org/states/new-hampshire/ and http://www.nhcommonsense.org)

Aden
03-22-2012, 02:58 PM
Also, AF and donnay are husband/wife? If so, coolest couple ever.

Heh, I started to type up a response asking what the heck you were talking about. Then I reread it and was like, "ohhhhh. He said "donnay" NOT "Danno." Scary thoughts I was having.

Aden
03-22-2012, 02:59 PM
go to Indeed.com. There are like 2,500+ IT jobs in NH.

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 03:03 PM
Question: Has anyone from FSP moved there and started a business that could employ hundreds if not thousands of people? That would seem to be a good thought, and a way to attract more people to the concept.

People have started companies. Companies don't always do well. There was a beer brewery started but the regulations were too strict for it to even try to compete. It was closed but the brewer worked with a Ron Paul endorsing state Rep. to get the law changed. The bill passed but it wasn't enough of a change. There is another bill to further deregulate brewing laws in NH.

A Ron Paul endorsing state Rep. stated a big Irish pub in Manchester. It's probably employed over 100 people since it's been around including quite a few free staters. A guy that moved here last year is working at the place right now. The owner of the pub has had so much success that he started a diner recently. He also created a fun sports league for adults but I'm not sure how many people he hired to help with that.

There are 2 guys that do construction that hire other free staters from time to time to help with jobs. Another free stater had his home built and hired a bunch of free staters to help build it.

There are people doing agorist jobs that they created, sometimes they hire people to help. I don't really want to get into any of that.

Someone created Shire Silver. He may have people helping him, I don't know.

Some people moved and brought there computer/online job with them.

There is a guy relocating part of his out of state company to NH but I'm not sure how much of the business he is transferring to NH.

I'm sure I've missed some but the job market is much better in NH than most of the country. There is certainly no shortage of jobs in NH and free staters have put together vast resources to help people get jobs/homes. We tend to even have classes on it at our major liberty events in NH. I've never heard of a fsper moving to NH and then leaving because they couldn't find a job. Even if 500 people all moved on Friday, they shouldn't have any trouble finding work.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Understand that part of it, but activism (as much as I do it) is not my entire life. I have a business, family, friends and other things that have absolutely nothing to do with political activism -- many others are the same way. My point being it is a very hard sell for someone that has a successful career and an extended family in a given area to leave that just so they can become more politically active and enjoy the benefits of a lower tax and regulatory burden.

Yes, understood, that is difficult.

But, I did it, and I'm nothing special.

I did it before there ever was such a thing as the FSP.

Mrs. AF built and sold a business just for the purpose of making the move.

Granted, I have a job that I can work as long as I'm within a days drive of an airport, but still, I could work local if I had to.

And I had friends and family tell me I was nuts for making a move and deciding on a place to live based on political considerations. But how is that any more nuts than basing it on schools, or taxes, or quality of life, or crime, or employment opportunities? Aren't all those things affected by "politics"?

Most of the family that called me nuts are now living down the road from me. The rest are on the way. ;)

Depends on how bad you want it, I suppose.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much demand there is for computer programmers in NH? I'm looking to get a degree in this field in the future, and NH seems like an ideal liberty-friendly place.

How are the police up there, particularly when concerned with the likes of the *gasp* evil marihuana? It'd be great to live in a state that wouldn't raid me, kill my parrot "because it's dangerous", and then proceed to steal my house because I decided to avoid the likes of xanax and kidney-destroying bipolar medications.

Also, AF and donnay are husband/wife? If so, coolest couple ever.

Answer to question the first: Yes, there is, although I have no idea how much it pays.

Answer to question the second: Mostly OK, but, just like cops anywhere, they are to be avoided if at all possible. On MJ, frankly, lousy, although I'm not sure there is any real aggressive prosecution. Still it's a gamble and relatively strict, especially compared to VT and ME. http://norml.org/laws/nh

Answer to question the third: Yes, and thanks. We met almost 20 years ago now, on a political forum much like this, run by, of all people, Rush Limbaugh on the old Compu-serve system, before there even was a www. The forum is still around, it's called Town Hall. http://townhall.com/

specsaregood
03-22-2012, 04:02 PM
//

tbone717
03-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Yes, understood, that is difficult.

But, I did it, and I'm nothing special.

I did it before there ever was such a thing as the FSP.

Mrs. AF built and sold a business just for the purpose of making the move.

Granted, I have a job that I can work as long as I'm within a days drive of an airport, but still, I could work local if I had to.

And I had friends and family tell me I was nuts for making a move and deciding on a place to live based on political considerations. But how is that any more nuts than basing it on schools, or taxes, or quality of life, or crime, or employment opportunities? Aren't all those things affected by "politics"?

Most of the family that called me nuts are now living down the road from me. The rest are on the way. ;)

Depends on how bad you want it, I suppose.

For me personally, it could never happen as I described my situation. Having a business that has taken me years to build would be crazy to walk away from. In my business, personal contact is essential. For example I just delivered some products to a customer today and walked out with an order 10 times the size I walked in with. My wife and I are also starting another business (personal services), and should be opening the shop soon. While theoretically we could start this business in another state, part of us opening is based on our network of friends that will be our initial customers, and our referrals. Having hundreds of personal connections here in the area through my business, my wife's present career and our own friends is what assures us that we can start a new business and be successful from day one. And that doesn't even get into the family and friends aspect of what keeps us here.

But aside from me personally, I am sure there are many others that are in similar situations as myself. As anyone with aging parents knows, it is best to have them nearby and uprooting someone who has lived 70+ years in an area is very difficult. So while, it is a great idea, I just think it is a very hard thing to have people to do, which is why I think the growth of the project has been so slow.

Perhaps the concept needs to be brought to more people locally who can have that same type of effect in their own towns and communities by working together with a focus of influencing local and state government. In may ways this is what libertarian-conservatives have been working on for a long time, though not identified as a "free state" type movement.

UMULAS
03-22-2012, 04:42 PM
Unless it is a libertarian organization, what is the point?

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 04:54 PM
Unless it is a libertarian organization, what is the point?

You mean Libertarian Party? I don't think many (small L) libertarians would disagree with the statement of intent. But the Free State Project is only a vehicle to get people to NH. Once you're there you're on your own. Many have chosen to work through the Republican Party, and IMO have been very successful...at least compared to the usual track record of libertarian political activists.

MelissaWV
03-22-2012, 04:55 PM
I agree with tbone17.

The notion of living in NH does not really appeal to me, nor can I shake the idea of putting all one's eggs in one basket being a bad idea. I am helping my parents and grandmother here, and I have various ties to my community that I am unlikely to find it easy to duplicate in NH. My health would suffer there, and I can't really think that there is a better medical environment for me in that area. If I move, it will likely be back to somewhere in Appalachia, where the weather suits me better, the people are generally kind (or, if not kind, then totally honest), and the land and homes are cheap and oft-overlooked. I greatly enjoyed living in a state that people forget exists.

I also have had some casual interaction with some who are involved, and I prefer to live my life quietly when I am not actively trying to change things. I value my down time, my socializing, my quiet, my reading, my wanderings. The limited information from the aforementioned people, coupled with the "news" (fighting for the right to walk around topless, etc.) that reaches me here, do not make me think that NH is for me.

I wish them all the best, but I usually don't get that sentiment returned.

Schiff_FTW
03-22-2012, 05:13 PM
It's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick some of the things from the more controversial activists and act as if it's the whole movement. Why not talk about the dozen libertarian state reps elected? The inside-the-system activists have changed the entire nature of the debate in Concord.

Obviously it's not for everyone. But I think the appeal is obvious to a certain group of people, especially if you're already from New England.

MelissaWV
03-22-2012, 05:17 PM
It's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick some of the things from the more controversial activists and act as if it's the whole movement.

It's even more disingenuous to accuse people of this and then say "obviously it's not for everyone" like you're "allowing" us to not want to join. The title is "Who plans..." not "Praise for..." which I thought was an invitation to some of the reasons why people wouldn't join. The place is not for me, and I gave some examples. They are good enough for me, and no one else is deciding where I'm going to live.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 05:23 PM
The notion of living in NH does not really appeal to me

Same. I like nice weather, and as much as Keith tries to convince me otherwise, NH is fucking cold. However, I'd prefer to live free and cold than warm and enslaved. Small sacrifice.


nor can I shake the idea of putting all one's eggs in one basket being a bad idea.

Why? Because of this fear that the government will kill us all? Putting aside how ridiculous that sounds, at some point you have to make a choice: do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice, or do I stand up for myself and take my freedom back?


The limited information from the aforementioned people, coupled with the "news" (fighting for the right to walk around topless, etc.) that reaches me here, do not make me think that NH is for me.

People fighting for a right to do something that doesn't harm others is what would turn you against moving there? /baffled

Czolgosz
03-22-2012, 05:31 PM
FSP is an important and useful project, for sure. I'd like to see a smaller community consolidation and would be willing to sign up and participate in said project.

NewRightLibertarian
03-22-2012, 05:37 PM
I might do this at the end of the year if I cannot find work in broke, destitute Michigan

MelissaWV
03-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Same. I like nice weather, and as much as Keith tries to convince me otherwise, NH is fucking cold. However, I'd prefer to live free and cold than warm and enslaved. Small sacrifice.



Why? Because of this fear that the government will kill us all? Putting aside how ridiculous that sounds, at some point you have to make a choice: do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice, or do I stand up for myself and take my freedom back?



People fighting for a right to do something that doesn't harm others is what would turn you against moving there? /baffled

Yeah this response doesn't really shock me, as it's the same one I always get. To you, the cold seems to be a matter of going "brrr" and putting on another jacket. To me, extreme cold and having to dig out from a potentially snowbound home is a matter of old fractures, dislocations, and other injuries making themselves painfully and constantly known. I also prefer to have more options when it comes to food and water, and that comes more easily with springs and a different climate. I greatly enjoy the local food here, as I did in WV. When I have gone as far as New England, I found that the quality of much of the produce was quite poor, that the potential for growing many of the things I enjoyed was non-existant, and that asking grocery stores for tropical staples that have always formed a part of my diet (even if they are imported) usually caused a chuckle or guffaw or a very angry look. Climate is just not a matter of fashion.

Moving my non-English-speaking grandmother to NH sounds so charming, and my aging parents can come, too, and would be glad to know the effects of those winters upon a pair of artificial knees and myriad arthritic joints. I notice you also skipped over the part about having access to excellent medical care. I don't blame you.

* * *


do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave. I've certainly done nothing locally to attempt to further freedom and prosperity. I am absolutely not attempting to make a good and liberty-laden life for myself and my family. Nope, I'm just submitting to a life of absolute slavery because I don't want to move to NH (???). You are putting all of your eggs in one basket by attempting to simultaneously change a government's composition and fend off a growing population swarming up from Massachusetts. That you decided I meant I was afraid the government would swoop in and kill everyone in the FSP is astounding, and rather indicative of something, I'd think.

* * *

Yeah, I somehow don't think that you get why on earth I don't need my grandmother gazing out her window at a random protest that might involve nudity or shouting or whatever else... rather than the very nice garden that currently fills her view. That is hyperbole, of course, but why would I willingly move into the sort of thing you're describing as "fighting for a right," yet that I see as a cry for constant attention? You talked about getting involved in politics, which is actually fighting, and then you are "baffled" by why I, who've lived around marches and protests far too often in my prior time near DC, would not choose to live in that circus again.

Can you accept that some folks might not want the glitter without being "baffled" or accusing them of wanting to be "safe"? I thought freedom also allowed for people who just want things to be quiet on their property.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 05:51 PM
Yeah this response doesn't really shock me, as it's the same one I always get. To you, the cold seems to be a matter of going "brrr" and putting on another jacket. To me, extreme cold and having to dig out from a potentially snowbound home is a matter of old fractures, dislocations, and other injuries making themselves painfully and constantly known. I also prefer to have more options when it comes to food and water, and that comes more easily with springs and a different climate. I greatly enjoy the local food here, as I did in WV. When I have gone as far as New England, I found that the quality of much of the produce was quite poor, that the potential for growing many of the things I enjoyed was non-existant, and that asking grocery stores for tropical staples that have always formed a part of my diet (even if they are imported) usually caused a chuckle or guffaw or a very angry look. Climate is just not a matter of fashion.

Moving my non-English-speaking grandmother to NH sounds so charming, and my aging parents can come, too, and would be glad to know the effects of those winters upon a pair of artificial knees and myriad arthritic joints. I notice you also skipped over the part about having access to excellent medical care. I don't blame you.

* * *

Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave. I've certainly done nothing locally to attempt to further freedom and prosperity. I am absolutely not attempting to make a good and liberty-laden life for myself and my family. Nope, I'm just submitting to a life of absolute slavery because I don't want to move to NH (???). You are putting all of your eggs in one basket by attempting to simultaneously change a government's composition and fend off a growing population swarming up from Massachusetts. That you decided I meant I was afraid the government would swoop in and kill everyone in the FSP is astounding, and rather indicative of something, I'd think.

* * *

Yeah, I somehow don't think that you get why on earth I don't need my grandmother gazing out her window at a random protest that might involve nudity or shouting or whatever else... rather than the very nice garden that currently fills her view. That is hyperbole, of course, but why would I willingly move into the sort of thing you're describing as "fighting for a right," yet that I see as a cry for constant attention? You talked about getting involved in politics, which is actually fighting, and then you are "baffled" by why I, who've lived around marches and protests far too often in my prior time near DC, would not choose to live in that circus again.

Can you accept that some folks might not want the glitter without being "baffled" or accusing them of wanting to be "safe"? I thought freedom also allowed for people who just want things to be quiet on their property.

You seem to be very good at taking things personally. I meant no disrespect. Though you'll probably take this personally too. (sigh)


Yes, because if I don't do as you say/do, I'm a slave

Unless you're living off the grid, outside the long armed reach of the government, yes, you're a slave. Whether you realize it not. If you don't realize it, more power to you, I'm happy that you're happy - sincerely.


You are putting all of your eggs in one basket... etc

Just a FYI, but as long as we get enough people behind the movement, it is impossible to fail. Even if we were to fail, we'd still win. There is no possible outcome where we lose, as long as we try.

MelissaWV
03-22-2012, 06:07 PM
Unless you're living off the grid, outside the long armed reach of the government, yes, you're a slave. Whether you realize it not. If you don't realize it, more power to you, I'm happy that you're happy - sincerely.

But earlier you were so proud of making changes within NH's government. This would also speak against moving, since NH is not exactly government-free, nor ever likely to be.

And yeah, your response was to my personal reasons for not moving (some of which you dismissed out of hand as being totally silly), so I responded about my personal reasons.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 06:15 PM
Putting aside how ridiculous that sounds, at some point you have to make a choice: do I continue to live life as a slave because it's the safe choice, or do I stand up for myself and take my freedom back?

Statements like this make little sense. It is not like NH is some paradise. So there is no sales & income tax - ok I get that. But there still is property tax, and from what I have determined it is as much or maybe slightly more than I pay now. So there are less zoning laws. Woohoo I get to put a car up on blocks in my front yard without fear of a letter from the township - freedom at last!

Look NH is not utopia, and while it may be more favorable to libertarian ideals than other places, it does not make it the perfect place to live. You will still pay federal taxes, and businesses are still subject to regulation. We can work to change that from every part of this country. Just because we all don't buy into the dream that 20,000 people living in NH is going to create a perfect world, doesn't mean we are all choosing slavery.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 06:28 PM
But earlier you were so proud of making changes within NH's government. This would also speak against moving, since NH is not exactly government-free, nor ever likely to be.

Big difference: the government I was referring to is our current government, which historically speaking is quite an impressive tyranny, especially when you consider the scope & size of it. Depending on the factors you use for comparison, the United States could arguably be the most tyrannical society in the history of man kind.

FSP seeks to carve out a small geographic area, where at least we can be free (or at least *mostly* free).


And yeah, your response was to my personal reasons for not moving (some of which you dismissed out of hand as being totally silly), so I responded about my personal reasons.

I still dismiss your boob protest fear as being totally silly.

MelissaWV
03-22-2012, 06:34 PM
I still dismiss your boob protest fear as being totally silly.

It's not a fear. It's called "preference," but it's been lost in all the PC garbage that ironically states we should all care about the same things to the same degree... in order to be worthy of being free.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 06:43 PM
Statements like this make little sense. It is not like NH is some paradise. So there is no sales & income tax - ok I get that. But there still is property tax, and from what I have determined it is as much or maybe slightly more than I pay now. So there are less zoning laws. Woohoo I get to put a car up on blocks in my front yard without fear of a letter from the township - freedom at last!

I agree that there's nothing really special about NH that makes this the only place where this strategy would work. The strategy could actually work anywhere. NH just has a head start with the FSP, but if people wanted to do the same thing but somewhere else, I'd fully support that too.

The point is, the laws in NH may not be all that awesome right now, but if we just pick a location and move there as a group, we can shape the laws how we like it.


Look NH is not utopia, and while it may be more favorable to libertarian ideals than other places, it does not make it the perfect place to live. You will still pay federal taxes, and businesses are still subject to regulation. We can work to change that from every part of this country.

You can try. But it won't work. It may be next week, it may be a year from now, or 10 years from now, eventually you'll realize that most people don't want freedom. They are like Cypher, they want to live in the Matrix. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, and I don't look down on those people, but it's important for us to recognize that there are significant and irreconcilable differences with the freedom movement and the rest of the country.


Just because we all don't buy into the dream that 20,000 people living in NH is going to create a perfect world, doesn't mean we are all choosing slavery.

May be not. My only point with that comment is that you are a slave. As am I. Even now, I'm choosing slavery, because I'd rather live this life of slavery than stop paying my taxes, defend my home when they come to arrest me, and die in a hail of a not-so-glorious gunfire. The important thing to recognize is that we are slaves, and it's even more important to realize, that we don't have to accept it.

On your other point, if believe that the FSP, as a concept, is not 100% logically sound, then I'd like to ask you why you don't think it would work.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 06:46 PM
It's not a fear. It's called "preference," but it's been lost in all the PC garbage that ironically states we should all care about the same things to the same degree... in order to be worthy of being free.

I still dismiss your boob protest preference as being totally silly. You can have your preferences, but the fact that you think this preference is significant enough to mention when talking about the choice between freedom and slavery... that speaks volumes more than anything else you've said.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 07:44 PM
On your other point, if believe that the FSP, as a concept, is not 100% logically sound, then I'd like to ask you why you don't think it would work.

Because even among people who are libertarian there are varying ideologies. Anacro-capitalists, neo-libertarians, paleo-conservatives, agorists, etc. While we all share common goals with the Federal government, the closer you get to home you'll find differing opinions as to what the role of government is and how much government there should be. Add to the fact that it has taken them 10 years of promotion to get to 13,000 people, and only 1000 have actually made the move. With the rate of progression FSP is currently experiencing, I don't see them reaching 20K anytime soon, and if they do get that many pledges I would think that some of the fervor that people felt for the project 8 or 9 years ago may have worn off - or life circumstances have changed enough that they cannot move.

Like I have said, it is an interesting idea on paper, but the practicality of it is iffy. A more reasonable solution to the problems in this nation is to work to get libertarian-conservatives elected to local, state and federal offices. That plan has been in action for many years now, and we have been making substantial gains. 8 years ago, few of us would have believed that we could produce a candidate that had a realistic chance at winning the nomination. And while that campaign was not successful, at the very least we have advanced our cause, we will gain seats in the House and Senate and we will continue to be a driving force in American politics. All accomplished from the comfort of my own home.

Madison320
03-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Too cold. Plus it seems to me the federal government is by far the biggest taker of my freedom. It won't make much difference which state I live in, I still have to deal with the fed.

JamesButabi
03-22-2012, 07:56 PM
Im signed up and in the planning phase. The successes are piling up with just 1000 people. If they ever even get close to the goal there will be drastic changes. This is a viable idea that people should give serious thought to

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 07:57 PM
FSP is an important and useful project, for sure. I'd like to see a smaller community consolidation and would be willing to sign up and participate in said project.

Awesome, unlike other places where people talk about doing this one day (seasteading, paulville) it is already happening in NH. Liberty lovers picked a town in NH where around 1/3 of the voters are already pro-liberty and started moving there. The liberty activists think of creative ways to save money. The are the majority on the planning board. The have seats on other town boards. They estimate that with 25-50 new movers that are decent people and vote, they could start reducing town taxes. With 100 additional movers, they would likely win most of the seats to most of the boards. It is called Grafton, NH.


I agree that there's nothing really special about NH that makes this the only place where this strategy would work. The strategy could actually work anywhere. NH just has a head start with the FSP, but if people wanted to do the same thing but somewhere else, I'd fully support that too.

I must disagree. NH has the most decentralized state government in the US when it comes to taxes. It is easier to get elected as a legislator in NH than any other state as there are 424 of them and they are only paid a salary of $100 per year. NH has the weakest governor in the US. Not only is the governor elected every 2 years but he shares power with an elected 5 member executive council. NH has a town meeting tradition which (along with VT and perhaps ME) is the closest thing to direct Democracy we have in the US. If pro-liberty activists really do concentrate in one small town, they will have a very powerful voice in the town and can easily be the majority of the legislature (in NH towns, the people that bother to shop up at a town meeting are the legislature for the town on issues and spending at town meetings.) Additionally, NH has the least expensive state House races in the US. NH is geographically small compared to most states, which makes meetings easier to attend and has a low population.

tbone717
03-22-2012, 07:59 PM
Too cold. Plus it seems to me the federal government is by far the biggest taker of my freedom. It won't make much difference which state I live in, I still have to deal with the fed.

Very good point. And while NH has no income tax or sales tax the cost of living is higher there compared to where I currently live. Here is the result from the CNN Money calculator:

If you move from Harrisburg, PA to Manchester, NH....
Groceries will cost: 4%more
Housing will cost: 27%more
Utilities will cost: 12%more
Transportation will cost: 4%less
Healthcare will cost: 16%more

tbone717
03-22-2012, 08:25 PM
Awesome, unlike other places where people talk about doing this one day (seasteading, paulville) it is already happening in NH. Liberty lovers picked a town in NH where around 1/3 of the voters are already pro-liberty and started moving there. The liberty activists think of creative ways to save money. The are the majority on the planning board. The have seats on other town boards. They estimate that with 25-50 new movers that are decent people and vote, they could start reducing town taxes. With 100 additional movers, they would likely win most of the seats to most of the boards. It is called Grafton, NH..

Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 08:43 PM
Because even among people who are libertarian there are varying ideologies. Anacro-capitalists, neo-libertarians, paleo-conservatives, agorists, etc. While we all share common goals with the Federal government, the closer you get to home you'll find differing opinions as to what the role of government is and how much government there should be.

We'd be debating what's the best way to maximize freedom. Our elected leaders are debating which of the many tyrannies is the best.

We don't have to agree on everything. A government is a representation of its people. Because we want liberty, the government [or lack thereof] we'd create would represent that, regardless of whatever form it took.


Add to the fact that it has taken them 10 years of promotion to get to 13,000 people, and only 1000 have actually made the move. With the rate of progression FSP is currently experiencing, I don't see them reaching 20K anytime soon, and if they do get that many pledges I would think that some of the fervor that people felt for the project 8 or 9 years ago may have worn off - or life circumstances have changed enough that they cannot move.

I agree that this movement isn't taking the FSP very seriously. This is a valid criticism of the project. The frustrating thing is that full 100% freedom is just a road trip away, if only a fraction of this movement took the FSP more seriously.


Like I have said, it is an interesting idea on paper, but the practicality of it is iffy. A more reasonable solution to the problems in this nation is to work to get libertarian-conservatives elected to local, state and federal offices.

A government is a representation of the people. You can fiddle around all day long with local and state offices, but as long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Freedom Lovers 10 to 1, you will find no freedom.


That plan has been in action for many years now, and we have been making substantial gains. 8 years ago, few of us would have believed that we could produce a candidate that had a realistic chance at winning the nomination. And while that campaign was not successful, at the very least we have advanced our cause, we will gain seats in the House and Senate and we will continue to be a driving force in American politics. All accomplished from the comfort of my own home.

Driving force? No. Speed bump, sure.

I'll guess that 10% of this country truly wants freedom. Maybe more, maybe less. Definitely no more than 20%. You can win an election with 20%. You can even win an election with 10%, if you tried. But you cannot have real change towards freedom when 80% of the country is working against you.

The best you can hope for is to slow down tyranny.

You may say that Dr. Paul had a huge jump in supporters from 2008 to 2012, and you're right, he did. However, that's his ceiling, or very close to it. There may be some stragglers who didn't get a chance to hear his message, but no, for the most part, everyone who voted had a basic understanding of what Dr. Paul stood for, and opposed him. They voted for the exact opposite of liberty.

If we had ran Rand Paul in his place, we may have very well won the nomination. If we had, it would only be because he's younger, more charismatic, or more compromising. Liberty wouldn't have won. Superficial would have won. Even if Rand had won the Presidency, would he have been able to accomplish anything? No. He would have been opposed at every step, likely by his own party.

Simply consider how hard the media, and the Republican party fought to oppose Dr. Paul. Do you think they didn't have a good grasp of Dr. Paul's positions? Hell no, those reporters jobs is politics. They could tell you Dr. Paul's stance on every single issue. Same for most Republican party officials. They know Dr. Paul's stances, but simply disagree with them. Strongly. They pulled out every trick in the book, all because they oppose liberty.

Do you think the news reporters were told to throw Paul under every bus possible, that they received memos from the higher ups to ignore him or discredit him? No way.

Same for the Republican party officials. And the strategy is, "take over the party so they can't do these tricks"... this is the wrong perspective. They should be asking why the Republican party were so vehemently against Paul to begin with, not to try to maneuver the politics in their favor. Even if the movement does successfully take over the Republican party, the nation will just vote Democrat, or create a third party, and that third party would succeed.

This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 08:51 PM
Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

All that is a 30 - 40 minute drive to Concord.

If you want to walk to Yankee Stadium and the supermarket, Grafton is not for you.

Keith and stuff
03-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Keith, what is the quality of like like in Grafton? It is a very small town, and appears to be in the middle of nowhere. Where are all the amenities - concerts, shopping, sports teams, theater, fine dining, etc.

It is a hilly rural town 25 to 50 minutes from the center of life in the Upper Vally of NH. I'm speaking of the towns of Lebanon (where the top hospital in NH is) and Hanover (where the top college in NH is.) Lebanon is the major shopping and working area for the Upper Valley of NH and most of central VT. Lebanon has a lot of medical, retail and high tech work and one of the lowest unemployment rates for any metro in the US. There is a free bus that goes from the town next to Grafton to Lebanon several times per day. It is right off of I-91, on I-89 and just over the river in VT there is an Amtrak train that goes from Burlington, VT to DC. 35 to 55 minutes east of Grafton is Concord, NH. Concord is the 3rd largest city in NH, has the capital and is the main center of employment in central NH.

Grafton has 3-5 stores, as far as I know. I think only 2 of them sell food and only one or two are open year round. The main store in Grafton is the 'downtown' gas station, sub shop, pizza shop, convenience store, etc. Grafton is an area where a cop isn't always on duty, there is a volunteer fire department with a Libertarian Party member in charge. In the 1800 hundreds most of the trees were cut down and sheep farming was the big business in town. Now the trees have grown back and most of Grafton is covered with trees. The are just a few churches. One of them is a pro-liberty, non-denominational church.

Feel free to ask me additional questions about Grafton or post them here, http://nhunderground.com/forum/index.php?board=16.0

Anti Federalist
03-22-2012, 08:53 PM
This x ∞

I owe ya a rep when get more ammo.


A government is a representation of the people. You can fiddle around all day long with local and state offices, but as long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Freedom Lovers 10 to 1, you will find no freedom.

Driving force? No. Speed bump, sure.

I'll guess that 10% of this country truly wants freedom. Maybe more, maybe less. Definitely no more than 20%. You can win an election with 20%. You can even win an election with 10%, if you tried. But you cannot have real change towards freedom when 80% of the country is working against you.

The best you can hope for is to slow down tyranny.

You may say that Dr. Paul had a huge jump in supporters from 2008 to 2012, and you're right, he did. However, that's his ceiling, or very close to it. There may be some stragglers who didn't get a chance to hear his message, but no, for the most part, everyone who voted had a basic understanding of what Dr. Paul stood for, and opposed him. They voted for the exact opposite of liberty.

If we had ran Rand Paul in his place, we may have very well won the nomination. If we had, it would only be because he's younger, more charismatic, or more compromising. Liberty wouldn't have won. Superficial would have won. Even if Rand had won the Presidency, would he have been able to accomplish anything? No. He would have been opposed at every step, likely by his own party.

Simply consider how hard the media, and the Republican party fought to oppose Dr. Paul. Do you think they didn't have a good grasp of Dr. Paul's positions? Hell no, those reporters jobs is politics. They could tell you Dr. Paul's stance on every single issue. Same for most Republican party officials. They know Dr. Paul's stances, but simply disagree with them. Strongly. They pulled out every trick in the book, all because they oppose liberty.

Do you think the news reporters were told to throw Paul under every bus possible, that they received memos from the higher ups to ignore him or discredit him? No way.

Same for the Republican party officials. And the strategy is, "take over the party so they can't do these tricks"... this is the wrong perspective. They should be asking why the Republican party were so vehemently against Paul to begin with, not to try to maneuver the politics in their favor. Even if the movement does successfully take over the Republican party, the nation will just vote Democrat, or create a third party, and that third party would succeed.

This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

TheTexan
03-22-2012, 08:59 PM
I must disagree. NH has the most decentralized state government in the US when it comes to taxes. It is easier to get elected as a legislator in NH than any other state as there are 424 of them and they are only paid a salary of $100 per year. NH has the weakest governor in the US. Not only is the governor elected every 2 years but he shares power with an elected 5 member executive council. NH has a town meeting tradition which (along with VT and perhaps ME) is the closest thing to direct Democracy we have in the US. If pro-liberty activists really do concentrate in one small town, they will have a very powerful voice in the town and can easily be the majority of the legislature (in NH towns, the people that bother to shop up at a town meeting are the legislature for the town on issues and spending at town meetings.) Additionally, NH has the least expensive state House races in the US. NH is geographically small compared to most states, which makes meetings easier to attend and has a low population.

NH does have some advantages that make it easier to play politics. However you can't have a free state based on politics alone. See above: any government is only a representation of its people.

The people in the state have to want to be free, for the state to be free. Politics can't change the way people think, so it's important to keep that in mind. Though I do suppose, political successes towards liberty could encourage the freedom-haters to leave, and freedom-lovers to join, so there is that I guess.

Politics is nice also because it allows for some kind of legitimacy to the freedom. If you declare secession as an individual, you're either getting shot or going to jail. Do it as a state and you can get away with it. Which is why I think playing politics is useful, in NH, and NH alone.

donnay
03-22-2012, 09:06 PM
My mother comes up to visit from Texas where she is used to all the little conveniences (grocery store right around the corner and eateries, and Malls 5 minutes away), along with all the inconveniences (nosy neighbors, high crime and noise). Living in a small city has made her impatient and intolerant when she comes to visit. If I ask her if she would like to take a ride, to the grocery store, she always asks, "Are we going to take the scenic route?" My reply is, "There are no other routes to take, it is all scenic in New Hampshire!" :D

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:52 AM
This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

Define freedom and your plan to "take freedom for ourselves". If you feel there is a 90/10 ratio against freedom, what makes you believe that having 20,000 people in NH (1.5% of the state's population) is going to make a significant difference? How do you see one's life being significantly different on a day to day basis if you accomplish your goal?

Keith and stuff
03-23-2012, 07:06 AM
Define freedom and your plan to "take freedom for ourselves". If you feel there is a 90/10 ratio against freedom, what makes you believe that having 20,000 people in NH (1.5% of the state's population) is going to make a significant difference? How do you see one's life being significantly different on a day to day basis if you accomplish your goal?

NH is significantly further along that any other state. In NH, despite it being the most competitive and important primary/caucus state, by far, 4.5% of the population voted for Ron Paul. That's correct, there were 44 candidates on that ballot, yet 4.5% of the population voted for Ron Paul. The next closest state was Vermont which has an open primary (NH doesn't) with only 1 candidate on the VT Democratic Primary and only a handful of candidates on the Republican Primary ballot with 2.3% of the population voting for Ron Paul. No other state was even in the same ball park as NH, not even the open state primaries where lots of Democrats voted for Paul, like in VA.

If NH had an open primary and Democrats were allowed to vote in the NH Republican Primary, we would have targeted Democrats (like people did in VT, VA, SC...) and maybe 6% of the population would have voted for Paul. There was a total of only 2 choices in VA and Paul had just 1.3%. Yet NH could of had 6% with 44 choices. Do you see the massive difference?

In 2008, with around 1/2 as many FSPers in NH, NH was 2nd in the nation at 1.4% but still significantly below it's current amount.

Percentage of total state population voting for Ron Paul in the Republican Primary or Republican Caucus, ranked highest to lowest (and the 2008 percentage):
1. New Hampshire 4.3% + 0.2% in the Democratic Primary as write-ins (1.4%)
2. Vermont 2.4% (0.4%)
3. South Carolina 1.7% (0.4%)
4. Virginia 1.3% (0.3%)
5. Michigan 1.2% (0.6%)
6. Ohio 1% (0.5%)
7. Iowa 0.9% (0.4%)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?360037-Percentage-of-total-state-population-voting-for-Ron-Paul-compared

That isn't the point though. Sure, people in NH may be significantly more inclined towards freedom than people in any other state. Sure, people have been moving to NH for more freedom for 100s of years. That is old news, though. The important part of the FSP is that the people moving aren't voters, they are activists. Otherwise, how do you explain just over 1000 movers to NH and yet 14 state Reps.? How do you explain FSPers holding key leadership positions in the 3 most powerful groups when it comes to the NH House of Representatives (The Republican House Alliance, the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance and the New Hampshire Republican Liberty Caucus)? Free staters have started TV shows, popular blogs and radio shows in NH. It isn't about voting or being a voter. It's about convincing 5 people or 20 people to more liberty inclined per free stater. It is about 5 free staters helping with a special election so that the most pro-liberty candidate wins. It's about 40 free staters working together to stop a bad bill, like that bill to create an adult seat belt law in NH that we led the effort to defeat. It's about free staters writing bills, sponsoring those bills, speaking to the NH House and NH Senate on those bills and then having those bills pass, like happened last year.

In some of the small towns in NH, over 1/3 of the voters are already pro-liberty right now. Towns like Dalton, Grafton and Croydon are already part of the way there. 25-100 new activists in town and it is a game changer in those towns. For example, in Dalton, not only are taxes low and regulations weak, but there is a gun group that gets together with there guns on at a bar regularly and no one things this is odd. In Grafton, liberty Republicans, Democrats and Libertarians hold many of the key positions in town and in Croydon the majority of the school board is pro-liberty. Things are moving along nicely in NH. We just need more activists to truly achieve something close to actual freedom up here. Thankfully, activists keep moving on up :)

tbone717
03-23-2012, 07:28 AM
Keith and stuff, what you are talking about is similar to what is happening all across the country as libertarian-conservative activists get involved in local and state politics. Which is something I wholeheartedly support. For example here in my part of PA, our state Senator is a libertarian Republican. In 2006 he defeated an establishment Republican in the primary, and won the seat in the general. He was reelected in 2010 with over 70% of the vote. So our activism here is effective and we have been very successful with a libertarian candidate in a population of over 300,000 for the district.

I am not sure that bxm042 is speaking of the same thing though, based on previous posts.

ShaneEnochs
03-23-2012, 07:38 AM
The biggest thing holding me back from a move to NH right now is their oppressive property tax. I'm staggered and frankly amazed that with all the large-scale goals thusfar achieved by the FSP movement, lowering or even abolishing property taxation has not been among them.

In WV we pay 6% on all personal property that we own, including pets, every single year whether the property has been paid off or not. So if you have a car worth 10,000, a house worth 160,000, a boat worth 4,000, and a dog worth 200, you're going to be paying about $10,000 every year just in property taxes.

Keith and stuff
03-23-2012, 07:41 AM
Keith and stuff, what you are talking about is similar to what is happening all across the country as libertarian-conservative activists get involved in local and state politics. Which is something I wholeheartedly support. For example here in my part of PA, our state Senator is a libertarian Republican. In 2006 he defeated an establishment Republican in the primary, and won the seat in the general. He was reelected in 2010 with over 70% of the vote. So our activism here is effective and we have been very successful with a libertarian candidate in a population of over 300,000 for the district.

I am not sure that bxm042 is speaking of the same thing though, based on previous posts.

I get that you are working inside the system and having decent results where you live. It is awesome that you have a libertarian Republican state senator. This there going to be a Ron Paul endorsement? Paul could use more of those! Perhaps that's why the appeal of the FSP is so small to you. People in every Southern state almost all of the Northeast and many other parts of the country are having very little luck. Then there are people in MN, where they are having good luck in the GOP, but the GOP in MN is a joke as the state leans 60% or more Democrat so all of their effort seems for not. I live in an area where people are having as much success in the Democratic Party as liberty lovers are having in the GOP in most of the country, but the Democratic Party isn't even the major party here.

Do you also have libertarian reps. and senators in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh? Are there towns where a large section of the voters are pro-liberty for almost every position and in every election? It may be possible to one day free PA, especially if many of the ideas that create success in NH are borrowed, but my guess is it will be at least a few decades after NH is freed, if that ever happens. My guess is states like ME, WY, SD, NM, MT, AK, CO, VT, ID... will all be freed before PA. The population is too large and the statist areas are just too statist in PA. We have libertarian Republicans elected in the most populated areas in NH such as Manchester (many of them), Nashua, Derry, Bedford and Portsmouth.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 07:52 AM
I get that you are working inside the system and having decent results where you live. It is awesome that you have a libertarian Republican state senator. This there going to be a Ron Paul endorsement? Paul could use more of those! Perhaps that's why the appeal of the FSP is so small to you. People in every Southern state almost all of the Northeast and many other parts of the country are having very little luck. Then there are people in MN, where they are having good luck in the GOP, but the GOP in MN is a joke as the state leans 60% or more Democrat so all of their effort seems for not. I live in an area where people are having as much success in the Democratic Party as liberty lovers are having in the GOP in most of the country, but the Democratic Party isn't even the major party here.

Do you also have libertarian reps. and senators in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh? Are there towns where a large section of the voters are pro-liberty for almost every position and in every election? It may be possible to one day free PA, especially if many of the ideas that create success in NH are borrowed, but my guess is it will be at least a few decades after NH is freed, if that ever happens. My guess is states like ME, WY, SD, NM, MT, AK, CO, VT, ID... will all be freed before PA. The population is too large and the statist areas are just too statist in PA. We have libertarian Republicans elected in the most populated areas in NH such as Manchester (many of them), Nashua, Derry, Bedford and Portsmouth.

He endorsed Paul in 08, but hasn't made an endorsement this year - possibly because he is sidelined with cancer treatments, so the 2012 race is likely not on his mind much. Philly and Pittsburgh are Democratic strong holds. It is hard enough to get a Repub elected there, let alone a libertarian-Republican. But as far as the rest of the state, "referred to as the T", it leans strongly conservative to libertarian. But things are moving in the right direction for sure. Potentially we are looking at a libertarian Republican winning the US Senate primary and challenging Casey in the fall. It is a progression in the right direction for sure. Issues of spending and regulation are being addressed in Harrisburg and nice strides have been made. For example, we are closer to getting rid of the state control of liquor sales than we have ever been. This is an issue that 10 years ago wasn't even on the table, and quite possibly within the next few years we can see the government getting out of the business of liquor sales. Rome wasn't built in a day, and we can not undo years of Progressive policies overnight. But I am greatly encouraged by the progress being made.

muzzled dogg
03-23-2012, 08:00 AM
This country does not want freedom. There is no reason to force freedom on them, when we have the option to take freedom for ourselves.

wut?

specsaregood
03-23-2012, 08:06 AM
//

Keith and stuff
03-23-2012, 08:26 AM
Question about porcfest. Are there generally many people attending with young kids? I've considered proposing the topic; but we'd be bringing along our toddler. From those that have attended previous years: would we be relatively alone in having young kid(s) along for the event or is there a fair amount of others with young kids?

Great question. 2010 had around 1000 people. 2011 had around 1200 people (although, maybe 1/2 of those people were only there for the weekend.) Last year, there was a family carnival section on Saturday. I think there was popcorn, a dunk tank and balloon animal making. There might have been other things like face painting and cotton candy but I don't remember. A different day of the week there was a family event in the arcade. There was also a kid olympics thing. There may have been other kid events but I don't have kids so I didn't pay much attention. There is also a playground and a pool. Anyway, the people that organized a lot of the kid events last year are organizing the entire thing this year. They want to make Porcfest a little more child friendly. They have little children, themselves.

It is definitely a child friendly place. However, after about 8 PM, the area down the hill is not very child friendly. Certain events such as Soapbox Idol are not child friendly but that was announced to people last year before the event started. People with children likely want to sleep in tent sites (not RV sites) or in motel rooms. If you want a motel room, I recommend getting it ASAP as Porcfest is one of the most popular liberty events in the world and there are limited motel rooms (though there other near-by motels) at the campgrounds. Also, keep in mind that it is unusual to see someone getting drunk at lunch, wearing a bikini in the morning and so on. It is possible that you may want to speak with your child about some of the things that they see at Porcfest.

There are child targeted tourist attractions in the area. For example, in Jefferson, the next town over, there is a Santa's Village theme park. http://www.santasvillage.com/ Week's State Park is in town. There is usually a park ranger giving a kid friendly presentation at the park during Porcfest.

If you are driving up I-93, not too far off the Interstate is Laconia, NH which has the worlds largest and best arcade (seriously) and an elevated playground where kids are attached to ropes and can act like monkeys.
http://www.funspotnh.com/
http://www.monkeytrunks.com/

specsaregood
03-23-2012, 08:48 AM
Anyway, the people that organized a lot of the kid events last year are organizing the entire thing this year. They want to make Porcfest a little more child friendly. They have little children, themselves.


Great stuff, thanks. i know there are a lot of us that didn't have kids just 4 years ago when Paul first got many of us involved.

Noblegeorge
03-23-2012, 10:27 AM
I love it. What a seriously great idea this is. I'm a US citizen but lived most of my life in Ireland apart from a while in California and Hawaii. Im going to do my MA in Political Communications in London next year and put the skills il get from it to good use thereafter. Who knows maybe one day I can help bring free markets and limited government to Ireland! That's a joke. This society is so socialist unemployed people are walking around in their pyjamas collecting social welfare and earning more than most people work in part time jobs. I know a guy who has his own house, no job for several years and lives quite nicely. And he openly admits he doesn't feel the need to get a job!

Anyway, I love this idea. I wanna live somewhere with common minded people in a place where the government doesn't have control of my income and my life. I don't think im alone in that here! To those living in New Hampshire....is there a noticeable difference with regard to your liberty between there and other places you've lived?...And to what extent do you think this project can achieve its mission?

Anti Federalist
03-23-2012, 12:03 PM
To those living in New Hampshire....is there a noticeable difference with regard to your liberty between there and other places you've lived?...And to what extent do you think this project can achieve its mission?

Yes, yes there is.

Although I will say this, I am not at all happy about the fact that NH took a bunch of federal money to widen/improve/maintain a number of roads across the state, including I-95, I-93 and State Rte 16, included in the deal are surveillance towers that have popped up all along 95, 16, parts of 101 and 93.

Fed money is behind this, it's all going through some creepy surveillance company, ASTI down in Delaware, and god knows where the information goes from there.

I've been trying to generate some interest in this, and have had little luck.

Live free does not mean driving down the road under constant surveillance.

Will FSP achieve it's mission?

Who knows, but, I think it's off to good start.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 12:47 PM
Define freedom and your plan to "take freedom for ourselves". If you feel there is a 90/10 ratio against freedom, what makes you believe that having 20,000 people in NH (1.5% of the state's population) is going to make a significant difference? How do you see one's life being significantly different on a day to day basis if you accomplish your goal?

Freedom: being able to do things that doesn't harm others without having a gun pointed in your face. Having the right to keep what you earn, keeping your land, doing what you like on your land, making voluntary transactions of any kind, all very basic elements of freedom that are long gone.


what makes you believe that having 20,000 people in NH (1.5% of the state's population) is going to make a significant difference

I don't have any illusions that we'll be able to free the entire state of NH with 20,000 people. I see two ways the FSP can succeed:

1) The 20,000 people leverage their political prowess to pull off small but significant victories, which inspires more Liberty movers to join, which creates larger victories, and inspires more Liberty movers, and so on, until we eventually outnumber the Tyranny Lovers. We start with a larger geographic area, and grow the Liberty population.

2) Instead of trying to use politics to make up for our Tyranny:Liberty ratio disadvantage, we focus on a smaller geographic area, where we can instead outnumber THEM 10:1. Just because it's a Free Town Project, or a Free County Project, doesn't mean we are strictly limited to Town&County politics. We do this through nullification. As more Liberty people join, we can get away with nullifying more and more things. We start with a small geographic area, and grow geographically.

The brilliant thing about the FSP is both of these strategies are being used. If/when I move to NH, I'll be looking for a Type2 sort of project, but I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from trying Type1.

The bottom line is this. As long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Liberty Lovers 10:1, you will find no freedom. The 30 million Liberty Lovers in this country are currently distributed across all 50 states. We are useless distributed across the whole country. The aim of the FSP is to concentrate their efforts in a smaller geographic region, increasing the number of Liberty Lovers, until ultimately we outnumber THEM 10:1.

Keith and stuff
03-23-2012, 01:59 PM
The bottom line is this. As long as the Tyranny Lovers outnumber Liberty Lovers 10:1, you will find no freedom.

I don't think we are out numbered 10 to 1 in NH. I think it is closer to 4 to 1 statewide (2 to 1 in several towns) and even those that are usually against liberty still typically want some freedoms such as no general sales tax, no personal income tax, and medical marijuana. Of course, NH is different as people have been moving to NH for 100s of years for the purpose of having more freedom. Then again, I'm just talking about people that are active in NH right now. If we persuade people to liberty, some of the people against freedom will come on board and some of the not active people will join us. There is also the chance that some not active people will be angered by shrinking government and become active to increase the size of government.

You need a majority of active people locally to be pro-liberty to achieve local freedom as the people in the towns actually vote on the issues and spending. However, statewide, you don't need anything close to a majority. You need a sizable, tireless, determined minority. You need people to get elected to the NH House to stop bad legislation. People vote for Republicans of Democrats. You just have to win enough of those primaries. Of the 40 or so times free staters have run for NH House, they won half the time. That's with NH being 4 to 1 anti-liberty folks. We know how to win. We are the best trained activists in NH.

Entire population of NH 1,318,194
2012 New Hampshire Republican and Democratic Primary voters 311,311
24% of entire population voted in the NH Primaries

5% of the entire population voted for Ron Paul, the most pro-liberty major candidate
21% of voters in the NH Primaries voted for Ron Paul

Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are not as bad as Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, IMO. I consider Rick Santorum the worst.
8% of the entire population voted for Mitt Romney
5% of the entire population voted for Ron Paul
3% of the entire population voted for Jon Huntsman
2% of the entire population voted for Rick Santorum
2% of the entire population voted for Newt Gingrich
The rest of the voters selected Obama or one of the other 38 candidates running

tbone717
03-23-2012, 03:05 PM
Freedom: being able to do things that doesn't harm others without having a gun pointed in your face. Having the right to keep what you earn, keeping your land, doing what you like on your land, making voluntary transactions of any kind, all very basic elements of freedom that are long gone.

There are certain elements of what you seek that you may never find IF you wish to live in a community with other people. Particularly the "doing what you like on your land". When people come together to form a town or community, the people within that town can choose to elect people into a government, and that government can choose to place some restrictions on what can be done with land. For example you might not be able to erect an oil well and try and drill for oil on your 1/4 acre property in a housing development, or you might not be able to start a used car lot on your little piece of paradise. The good thing is that we have the freedom in this country to choose where we buy property and those who wish to have yards filled with junk cars can live in areas where people accept that, and those that are fine with not having junk cars in their yard can choose to live among others that feel the same way.

For example our development has an HOA. We have about 250 house here and the HOA does have some modest restrictions on what you can do with your property. But these are things that are agreed upon by the HOA and the residents of the neighborhood. For example if you want to have a fence it cant be 30 ft high. Or if you want to have a clothesline it needs to be in the backyard not the front. Very basic stuff that all agree upon to keep the neighborhood looking nice. But if someone wants to have a 30ft high fence and laundry in the front yard, there are plenty of houses around where they can do that.

The same with keeping all you earn. WHile I am a huge anti-tax guy, you do have to concede that if you choose to live in a community that provides some basic services (road maintenance, street lights, police & fire) then you have to pay for it. But we do have the freedom to live in an isolated area where there are no services and therefore no need to pay for them. Just like electricity. You can choose to live with it or not

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 04:55 PM
...

It's not important that I get 100% of my freedoms. It's only important to me that the community I live in has a respect for the freedoms I listed. Compared to the complete and total disrespect of those freedoms we have today, I'm not really concerned about the issues you brought up. Maybe once I'm no longer in slavery I'll be more picky, but for now, I'll take "mostly free" any day over "mostly slave."

With that said, your oil well example isn't really accurate. I have the right to do what I like on my land as long as it doesn't harm others. Drilling oil on my land does harm others, as it takes oil from their land as well. I would need their permission.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:10 PM
It's not important that I get 100% of my freedoms. It's only important to me that the community I live in has a respect for the freedoms I listed. Compared to the complete and total disrespect of those freedoms we have today, I'm not really concerned about the issues you brought up. Maybe once I'm no longer in slavery I'll be more picky, but for now, I'll take "mostly free" any day over "mostly slave."

With that said, your oil well example isn't really accurate. I have the right to do what I like on my land as long as it doesn't harm others. Drilling oil on my land does harm others, as it takes oil from their land as well. I would need their permission.

Well the oil well was just an illustration. Replace it with radio tower, or chicken coop - it doesn't matter.

The point being that there are places in this country where there are minimal if any zoning laws. But the more people that come together in a community the more likely you are to have the residents of that community wish to have certain regulations placed on property use. Because most people don't want their $300,000 home next door to a guy who wants to breed sheep on his 1/4 acre.

Conceptually I agree with you, it is the practically of it that becomes the issue. The more people you have around you, the more restrictive (in general) regulations with property will become, and the more likely there will be a local tax burden for municipal services. But there are places where you can live where you can do whatever you want on your land - the issue though is that places like that are generally are with very low population, so living there, earning a living, etc becomes difficult for most.

Again using my local area as an example: I cannot discharge a firearm on my property. Why? Because I live on a 1/4 acre and right behind my home is a walking path that children use for school. It is a safety issue and I would be crazy if I took out my 12ga for practice in my yard. But less than a mile or so from me are plenty of properties where I could shoot in my own backyard. They are a little off the beaten track and the properties are larger, but if that was something important to me (which it is not because I shoot at my gun club) I could choose to live there.

But as far as marijuana laws, the right to engage in trade with out tax or regulation. All that I am in general agreement with you and it is the type of stuff we are working towards here in PA as well as other states.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 05:16 PM
Well the oil well was just an illustration. Replace it with radio tower, or chicken coop - it doesn't matter.

The point being that there are places in this country where there are minimal if any zoning laws. But the more people that come together in a community the more likely you are to have the residents of that community wish to have certain regulations placed on property use. Because most people don't want their $300,000 home next door to a guy who wants to breed sheep on his 1/4 acre.

Conceptually I agree with you, it is the practically of it that becomes the issue. The more people you have around you, the more restrictive (in general) regulations with property will become, and the more likely there will be a local tax burden for municipal services. But there are places where you can live where you can do whatever you want on your land - the issue though is that places like that are generally are with very low population, so living there, earning a living, etc becomes difficult for most.

Again using my local area as an example: I cannot discharge a firearm on my property. Why? Because I live on a 1/4 acre and right behind my home is a walking path that children use for school. It is a safety issue and I would be crazy if I took out my 12ga for practice in my yard. But less than a mile or so from me are plenty of properties where I could shoot in my own backyard. They are a little off the beaten track and the properties are larger, but if that was something important to me (which it is not because I shoot at my gun club) I could choose to live there.

These kind of things are especially problematic when your neighbors are tyrants. I expect there will always be some amount of neighbor rivalry, but it can't get much worse than it is now. Remember that guy that went to jail because his siding was incomplete?

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:23 PM
These kind of things are especially problematic when your neighbors are tyrants. I expect there will always be some amount of neighbor rivalry, but it can't get much worse than it is now. Remember that guy that went to jail because his siding was incomplete?

It really has nothing to do with rivalry or neighbors being tyrants. It has to to more so with people coming together to live side by side and wanting some standards maintained. The more people you are around the less freedom you have to do whatever you want without respect for how your neighbors will view your actions. But as I said there are plenty of places you can buy land and live on your own. But if you want to be part of a community there are some concessions you have to make at times.

Take a ride around some time and look at neighborhoods that have no restrictions vs ones that do. And then check the home values and average time on the market. Chances are that the crappy looking neighborhoods will have lower values and longer time on the market.

And again be aware that you always have a choice where you want to live. We still have those freedoms. You just don't have the "freedom" to buy a house in my development, put junk cars in the yard and never mow your lawn. Why? Because the residents of this community mutually agreed upon standards, and it is well within the rights of the homeowners to do so.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 05:31 PM
It really has nothing to do with rivalry or neighbors being tyrants. It has to to more so with people coming together to live side by side and wanting some standards maintained. The more people you are around the less freedom you have to do whatever you want without respect for how your neighbors will view your actions. But as I said there are plenty of places you can buy land and live on your own. But if you want to be part of a community there are some concessions you have to make at times.

It has everything to do with your neighbors being tyrants. More specifically, your community being tyrants.

That guy that was thrown in jail because of his siding? I can guarantee you, that wouldn't happen in a 10:1 L:T community.

Population density doesn't causes tyranny. It's the population's inherent tyranny that causes tyranny. It may seem like population density is the cause, but it only seems that way because there's so much tyranny packed into a small area.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 05:38 PM
You just don't have the "freedom" to buy a house in my development, put junk cars in the yard and never mow your lawn. Why? Because the residents of this community mutually agreed upon standards, and it is well within the rights of the homeowners to do so.

You can achieve that through contract law. I don't dispute your right to have such contracts. But if I own land not under such a contract, I would expect you to respect my right to have as many crap cars on my land as I so desire.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:41 PM
It has everything to do with your neighbors being tyrants. More specifically, your community being tyrants.

That guy that was thrown in jail because of his siding? I can guarantee you, that wouldn't happen in a 10:1 L:T community.

Population density doesn't causes tyranny. It's the population's inherent tyranny that causes tyranny. It may seem like population density is the cause, but it only seems that way because there's so much tyranny packed into a small area.

Then you are free to live in an area where people do not care about the repair status of someone's home. You can distance yourself from those you don't agree with an congregate with those that you do agree with. This is where the free market comes into play. If you live in a community where homes are in various states of disrepair, people have junk cars on their lawns, people never cut their lawns you will have a certain percentage of the population that feels that is paradise and a certain percentage that would not want to live there. That ratio determines the value of the home and effects your ability to sell your home.

The problem comes when you have one or two people that try and impose their desires on the larger percentage of the population. So when you have a person who wants to have their junk cars in the yard living among people that do not want that, there are problems. And while that may go against libertarian purist ideals, the reality is that when you choose to live in a society there are certain concessions that you will have to make. And there is nothing unconstitutional about that. There have been land use laws going back to the early days of this country. But you do have the freedom to live wherever you choose and find an area where your views of a perfect home are shared by others.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:42 PM
You can achieve that through contract law. I don't dispute your right to have such contracts. But if I own land not under such a contract, I would expect you to respect my right to have as many crap cars on my land as I so desire.

In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 05:48 PM
The problem comes when you have one or two people that try and impose their desires on the larger percentage of the population. So when you have a person who wants to have their junk cars in the yard living among people that do not want that, there are problems. And while that may go against libertarian purist ideals, the reality is that when you choose to live in a society there are certain concessions that you will have to make. And there is nothing unconstitutional about that. There have been land use laws going back to the early days of this country. But you do have the freedom to live wherever you choose and find an area where your views of a perfect home are shared by others.

If that person that wants to have junk cars didn't make any agreement not to when he bought the property, it doesn't matter what the other 99 people in his community want. They can offer to buy up his property, but they cannot, cannot force him to do anything. If he agreed to those terms when he moved that's another story.

Also, these are at most civil disputes. You can't throw someone in jail for a civil dispute. Regardless of what contract he agreed to.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 05:49 PM
In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.

I'm still not sure what your point in all of this is. Agreeing to terms of sale before you buy a property is perfectly compatible with Liberty.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 05:54 PM
I'm still not sure what your point in all of this is. Agreeing to terms of sale before you buy a property is perfectly compatible with Liberty.

The point being when you purchase a property, you are agreeing to abide by the laws of that community. So expecting to do whatever you want on your land is only achievable if you live in an area that has few if any laws.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:03 PM
The point being when you purchase a property, you are agreeing to abide by the laws of that community. So expecting to do whatever you want on your land is only achievable if you live in an area that has few if any laws.

I don't consider voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty as a condition of keeping your land, inherently tyrannical. Throwing you in jail on the other hand for not keeping your house pretty is a pure act of tyranny and simply would not happen in a Liberty community.

Basically, all of those rights I listed, you can suffix "as long as it doesn't harm others" to the end of it. Breaking a contract harms others. Agreeing to keep your grass pretty, while not a contract I would ever agree to, is a contract nonetheless.

In many ways a free society wouldn't be much different than society here. In a free society, these things are handled with voluntary agreements. In today's society, these things are handled with the barrel of a gun. Big difference.

Liberty lovers in general are also just more tolerant of others in general. So even though you 'can' have the same restrictive limitations on what color your bricks have to be, how tall your fence has to be, how far away from the sidewalk it has to be, how many inches your grass has to be, etc, I think you'd see a lot less of that in a free society.

But if that's what you want, you're free to enter into such arrangements.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:22 PM
In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.

This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 06:25 PM
This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.

Actually it attracts buyers because it is a nicely maintained community. People don't want to spend 400-500K on a home to wind up living next door to someone that wants to keep livestock in his front yard. Call it tyranny if you want, most people call it civility and MUTUALLY AGREE to these rules.

Honestly though. you are going to have a very hard time finding what you are looking for in this world.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:26 PM
LOL you are going to have a very hard time finding what you are looking for in this world.

No kidding. You don't say :rolleyes:

tbone717
03-23-2012, 06:32 PM
No kidding. You don't say :rolleyes:

It will be a choice you have to make. Do you want to live and function as part of a community, or do you want to isolate yourself. The larger the community, regardless of their libertarian bent, the more you will have to make concessions to mutually coexist with others. It is just the nature of the world, and honestly it has always been this way. Even in early America there were certain laws that were in place, and those that broke the law were fined or punished.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:36 PM
It will be a choice you have to make. Do you want to live and function as part of a community, or do you want to isolate yourself. The larger the community, regardless of their libertarian bent, the more you will have to make concessions to mutually coexist with others. It is just the nature of the world, and honestly it has always been this way.

So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.

MelissaWV
03-23-2012, 06:40 PM
This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.

It's interesting that you keep pointing out it's a desire to control. I also live in a development with an HOA, but it's nice because the fees go towards maintaining common areas (the mailbox area, various fields, playground, the winding streets that are not part of the city and require repairs from time to time, retaining walls that keep creeks from overflowing and blocking exits from the homes in flood situations, the trees whose limbs need trimming, etc.). The clauses about houses are still there, in that there are certain dimensions over which your home cannot go, and certain colors which your home should approximate. Those are there when you buy your home, however, and most people don't really want a bright flamingo pink house, so it doesn't become an issue. If they did want a neon-colored home, they wouldn't buy here. I'm glad I don't have to look at that. Again, we get back to the idea of preference.

The size restrictions are there because you could always buy a house, tear it down, and then build one twice as big... which would go right on up to the property line. The lots are not huge here, and so you would literally be encroaching on your neighbor's house. It's a courtesy thing, but most folks have lost that trait. I don't really see it as an issue, either, and like the assurance that anyone purchasing would have to have agreed to that, hence my property value is spared.

There are no regulations regarding pets or "lawn junk" anymore; neighbors wind up enforcing that on their own. Pets who routinely do their business in someone else's yard are not much of an issue, because of those well-maintained paths through what used to be a golf course. Lawn junk tends to be picked up by our excellent trash service (they really will take anything anywhere near the curb that looks like junk), or if not that, the neighbors will chip in to clean or offer a tactful word. This is very rarely a problem, since most people do want to keep a clean yard. There are several people who work on cars in the neighborhood, but they do so without leaving them on the lawn.

None of that is control over others. It's a mutual agreement to keep the neighborhood nice, and the terms of "nice" are defined in the contract. There are meetings, but not very often, and they are well-advertised. Any changes have to be voted on by a certain percentage of the homeowners, not just those that show up. In the meantime, the tradeoff is a beautifully wooded area where I know all my neighbors, and they know me, and where the houses are of myriad styles --- but not loud colors or overhanging their property line. The streets are maintained, there are lots of neat little creek beds and ponds and huge wild stands of flowers that are a riot of color in the spring.

Oh yeah, sounds like an attempt to control others.

What a tyrannical state of mind, living around people who want to make an attempt at having a community, and keeping their homes up to similar standards as you'd like to keep yours.

MelissaWV
03-23-2012, 06:41 PM
So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.

No, he said function as part of a community, which is what I thought the whole FSP thing was supposed to be.

You took that to mean "live as a slave."

tbone717
03-23-2012, 06:46 PM
So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.

Well if you want to live in a community that provides some service like road maintenance, fire, police, parks, etc then expect to pay some level of taxes. If you want to live in an area with minimal zoning laws you are going to likely be off the beaten track. Look at Grafton for example, it really is in the middle of nowhere.

Speaking of my local area there are places you can have essentially free reign over your own property, but you are not going to be in town or in one of the major developments. You'd either be in a run down trailer park or in one of the more rural areas. But then you still are going to pay taxes. And of course the further off the beaten path you are the harder it would be for you to sell your home, because the potential buyer pool is smaller the further you are away from town.

I honestly cannot think of anywhere that has no property taxes and no zoning. Perhaps areas of Alaska or maybe remote areas of Wyoming. But then again you are looking at isolation.

I think the issue that you may have to wrestle with is your definition of slavery. If you feel that having any sort of rule over you makes you a slave then you are always going to have issues with the rules that are in place.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:52 PM
No, he said function as part of a community, which is what I thought the whole FSP thing was supposed to be.

You took that to mean "live as a slave."

You misunderstood. I subtly implied (too subtly apparently), that if what he said is true, then we shouldn't bother with the FSP to begin with, because according to him, the concept itself is flawed.

He basically said: do you want to make concessions to live in the community, or do you want to live by yourself. There's a third option, that both you and he neglected. Live in a community of like minded individuals.

There's always going to be some minor concessions. I'm ok with that, as I've said repeatedly. Noone is identical. I have my preferences, and my preferences are such that I'd prefer if my neighbors didn't throw me in jail for not mowing my lawn, and I don't think that is too much to ask.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 06:52 PM
I honestly cannot think of anywhere that has no property taxes and no zoning. Perhaps areas of Alaska or maybe remote areas of Wyoming. But then again you are looking at isolation.

Nowhere yet. Holy crap, you have entirely missed the point of the FSP haven't you. I'm done, you win, I'm outta here :/

MelissaWV
03-23-2012, 06:56 PM
He said "community" and didn't specify. You decided it was slavery. That's not subtle; you just apparently utterly misspoke. That's fine, but it's no reason to get so frustrated you stomp off.

You would think I'd know better after so many years of these threads, but they look so honest and inviting at first. Some folks do want to join the FSP and they do, and they love it, and that's great. Maybe someday you guys really will win over the Masshole invasion, drive them back, or perhaps secession is in the future. But for the life of me I can't understand the venom, name-calling, and general asshattery that is directed at people who have reasons NOT to join.

tbone717
03-23-2012, 06:58 PM
Nowhere yet. Holy crap, you have entirely missed the point of the FSP haven't you. I'm done, you win, I'm outta here :/

And again in order to find a group of people that think like you do in regards to community you are going to wind up isolated. Best of luck finding your utopia.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 07:04 PM
Believe it or not, but there are those of us that believe having a gun pointed in your face to take your money is called theft, and not taxes.

I'm not alone in this matter.

MelissaWV
03-23-2012, 07:07 PM
Believe it or not, but there are those of us that believe having a gun pointed in your face to take your money is called theft, and not taxes.

I'm not alone in this matter.

1. You are making it sound as if you don't have that happen in NH. You do. In fact, you do to a greater extent than I do here.
2. You are making it sound like those of us who don't join the FSP are pro-taxation. This makes absolutely zero sense.

TheTexan
03-23-2012, 07:09 PM
1. You are making it sound as if you don't have that happen in NH. You do. In fact, you do to a greater extent than I do here.
2. You are making it sound like those of us who don't join the FSP are pro-taxation. This makes absolutely zero sense.

Ugh, you continue to make no sense whatsoever in your responses. I'm no longer replying to you either. You win. I give up.

Keith and stuff
03-23-2012, 07:20 PM
You would think I'd know better after so many years of these threads, but they look so honest and inviting at first. Some folks do want to join the FSP and they do, and they love it, and that's great. Maybe someday you guys really will win over the Masshole invasion, drive them back, or perhaps secession is in the future. But for the life of me I can't understand the venom, name-calling, and general asshattery that is directed at people who have reasons NOT to join.

Sorry, but it has been shown that the majority of the people that move from MA to NH do so for good reasons that we like. There is no reason to bring up that myth when it has been shown over and over again that it is false. As for driving people back, that has happened a little. For example, a statist lady that wrote a few absurd Counter Punch articles about the FSP, the founder and what we are doing in NH did move away from NH. She moved from NY to NH with her husband. They spread nasty lies about some pro-liberty local politicians. Eventually, they gave up and moved back to NY.

Here is one of the articles she wrote while she lived in NH.
April 27, 2009
"Anarcho Capitalists" Backed by $25 Billion Corporate Giant
The Far Right’s Plot to Capture New Hampshire
by PAM MARTENS

Unfortunately, even though she left NH to get away from freedom, she still is writing absurd nonsense.

February 27, 2012
Alan Greenspan’s Cult Years and the Corporate Money Planning for a New Cult Today
Ayn Rand: the Tea Party’s Miscast Matriarch
by PAM MARTENS


You can understand why I am skeptical that the Ayn Rand craze is a naturally occurring phenomenon. But then, I have the benefit of recently living for five years in New Hampshire with the Objectivists of the Free State Project, a group whose stated goal is to infuse 20,000 hyperactive political operatives into the state and take over government, gut public education and all regulations on business. This outfit seemed grassroots too – until I traced the funding of their founder, Jason Sorens, to Koch foundation largesse.

Anti Federalist
03-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Hah Hah.

Good place for her, hope she stays there.


Sorry, but it has been shown that the majority of the people that move from MA to NH do so for good reasons that we like. There is no reason to bring up that myth when it has been shown over and over again that it is false. As for driving people back, that has happened a little. For example, a statist lady that wrote a few absurd Counter Punch articles about the FSP, the founder and what we are doing in NH did move away from NH. She moved from NY to NH with her husband. They spread nasty lies about some pro-liberty local politicians. Eventually, they gave up and moved back to NY.

Here is one of the articles she wrote while she lived in NH.
April 27, 2009
"Anarcho Capitalists" Backed by $25 Billion Corporate Giant
The Far Right’s Plot to Capture New Hampshire
by PAM MARTENS

Unfortunately, even though she left NH to get away from freedom, she still is writing absurd nonsense.

February 27, 2012
Alan Greenspan’s Cult Years and the Corporate Money Planning for a New Cult Today
Ayn Rand: the Tea Party’s Miscast Matriarch
by PAM MARTENS

Anti Federalist
03-23-2012, 08:56 PM
Jebus, this is still going on?

Listen, those of you who want to, c'mon up, the more liberty minded, politically active people the better.

There are a lot of positives to making the move.

If you do not, for whatever reason, fine.

Stay as active as can locally.

MelissaWV
03-23-2012, 09:08 PM
Jebus, this is still going on?

Listen, those of you who want to, c'mon up, the more liberty minded, politically active people the better.

There are a lot of positives to making the move.

If you do not, for whatever reason, fine.

Stay as active as can locally.

Good stuff :)

Noble Savage
03-23-2012, 09:31 PM
learn to be free in your own pants and it wont matter where your standing

muzzled dogg
03-23-2012, 11:00 PM
You would think I'd know better after so many years of these threads, but they look so honest and inviting at first. Some folks do want to join the FSP and they do, and they love it, and that's great. Maybe someday you guys really will win over the Masshole invasion, drive them back, or perhaps secession is in the future. But for the life of me I can't understand the venom, name-calling, and general asshattery that is directed at people who have reasons NOT to join.

Re: masshole invasion

My gf and I moved from ma to nh. We're the types who are moving up

All our [statist] ma friends think we're crazy

But its much easier to win state congressional majority / governor than to win Ron Paul presidency

In the meantime we get all the benefits nh already has to offer

Anti Federalist
03-23-2012, 11:07 PM
Re: masshole invasion

My gf and I moved from ma to nh. We're the types who are moving up

All our [statist] ma friends think we're crazy

But its much easier to win state congressional majority / governor than to win Ron Paul presidency

In the meantime we get all the benefits nh already has to offer

Glad you're here.

Keith and stuff
03-24-2012, 05:36 AM
Glad you're here.

I noticed that there are a ridiculous amount of posters on RonPaulForums that live in NH. NH might be the most represented state around here per capita. If this website is still popular 4 years from now, we might even be the most represented around here by total numbers. I guess it depends how many people follow shemdogg's lead.

osan
03-24-2012, 06:20 AM
So. Who plans on moving to New Hampshire this year?

I signed up in 99, as I recall... or maybe 2000? Career, such as it has been, took me all over the USA. I have now lived in 12 states, currently in WV and would go to NH save for one thing: no money. What does one do when they have been wiped out economically by the systematic ruination of a once great nation of seemingly unlimited opportunity and in which one once did very well?

Oddly, and as much as we do not want to leave WV, the only reasonable opportunity for climbing out of this hole in which we find ourselves is for the wife to move to Houston; not the direction in which I'd intended, but there appears no opportunities elsewhere on the horizon. I found a very nice 316 acre farm in NH that I would love to buy, but without work I may as well look to buy the moon. So if anyone has any ideas, write a book and become wealthy.

Until such time as I gain market value, which at present appears to be zero or less, NH remains a pipe dream.

Sorry to sound like such a downer.

Anti Federalist
03-24-2012, 10:37 AM
I noticed that there are a ridiculous amount of posters on RonPaulForums that live in NH. NH might be the most represented state around here per capita. If this website is still popular 4 years from now, we might even be the most represented around here by total numbers. I guess it depends how many people follow shemdogg's lead.

What's encouraging also is that I know of at least 10 RPF people that have made just in the time that I've been on the forums.

That's just within our merry little band of refuseniks.

Total numbers are higher, I'm sure.

Anti Federalist
03-24-2012, 10:40 AM
I signed up in 99, as I recall... or maybe 2000? Career, such as it has been, took me all over the USA. I have now lived in 12 states, currently in WV and would go to NH save for one thing: no money. What does one do when they have been wiped out economically by the systematic ruination of a once great nation of seemingly unlimited opportunity and in which one once did very well?

Oddly, and as much as we do not want to leave WV, the only reasonable opportunity for climbing out of this hole in which we find ourselves is for the wife to move to Houston; not the direction in which I'd intended, but there appears no opportunities elsewhere on the horizon. I found a very nice 316 acre farm in NH that I would love to buy, but without work I may as well look to buy the moon. So if anyone has any ideas, write a book and become wealthy.

Until such time as I gain market value, which at present appears to be zero or less, NH remains a pipe dream.

Sorry to sound like such a downer.

Times are tough all over, and middle class job opportunities have indeed dried up, for all the reasons we've talked about before.

What do you do, what can you do and what are you willing to do?

I might have some options.

PM me if you want.

Crotale
03-25-2012, 10:33 AM
Define freedom and your plan to "take freedom for ourselves". If you feel there is a 90/10 ratio against freedom, what makes you believe that having 20,000 people in NH (1.5% of the state's population) is going to make a significant difference? How do you see one's life being significantly different on a day to day basis if you accomplish your goal?

You are forgetting the legendary quote: "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."

That is what the Free State Project is trying to achieve.

It's not 20,000 people. It's 20,000 activists. Those that are moving are working together to actively shape the political landscape for freedom. One activist is worth a hundred apolitical, apathetic, disinterested citizens. When actvists pool together, they can achieve a hell of a lot more. The FSP have made an impact with only 1,000 activists moving, so to think that 20k activists isn't much then you're majorly underestimating the power of activism. That would mean regular liberty events, rallies, festivals, campaigns, protests, boycotts, fundraisers, etc. with constistently thousands of activists participating. Of course, such widespread activism will wake many apathetic people up to our philosophy of peace and freedom, thus growing the numbers in the process.

To give you an idea of scale, 20,000 activists is double the attendence at the Rally for the Republic. That's twice the amount of activists at the rally all working together to actively promote the message of liberty. Now that's a force for good.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Rally_for_the_Republic.jpg/640px-Rally_for_the_Republic.jpg

Crotale
03-25-2012, 02:52 PM
You are putting all of your eggs in one basket.

I fail to see how the FSP is putting all of the eggs in one basket. Please clarify what you mean by that.

MelissaWV
03-25-2012, 02:57 PM
I fail to see how the FSP is putting all of the eggs in one basket. Please clarify what you mean by that. I did various pages ago, after someone accused me of some FEMA-camp conspiracy that I never espoused.

A state was picked, an effort is being put forth, and we're all being encouraged to go. And if it fails, it fails spectacularly, or if those moving/vacationing from neighboring, highly-establishment areas show up to stake claims... it all goes to shit. Yes, I know someone told me a couple of pages ago that liberals from Massachusetts are not moving into NH, just before they told me that there are great strides being made to compensate for those same people that aren't coming.

If you focus all your resources, all your people, all your economics, all your talent, all your time, on one area and it fails, then there will be a far bigger issue than if people work within their own communities whenever possible to make where they live a better place.

It is an observation.

Anti Federalist
03-25-2012, 03:17 PM
I did various pages ago, after someone accused me of some FEMA-camp conspiracy that I never espoused.

A state was picked, an effort is being put forth, and we're all being encouraged to go. And if it fails, it fails spectacularly, or if those moving/vacationing from neighboring, highly-establishment areas show up to stake claims... it all goes to shit. Yes, I know someone told me a couple of pages ago that liberals from Massachusetts are not moving into NH, just before they told me that there are great strides being made to compensate for those same people that aren't coming.

If you focus all your resources, all your people, all your economics, all your talent, all your time, on one area and it fails, then there will be a far bigger issue than if people work within their own communities whenever possible to make where they live a better place.

It is an observation.

Meh, different tools.

12 gauge scattergun vs. .308 rifle.

Crotale
03-26-2012, 03:14 PM
If you focus all your resources, all your people, all your economics, all your talent, all your time, on one area and it fails, then there will be a far bigger issue than if people work within their own communities whenever possible to make where they live a better place.

If you focus all your resources, all your people, all your economics, all your talent, all your time, on one area I can't see how it can fail.

It's certainly more effective than being spread out all over the place overwhelmed by statists. The FSP will bring together a real large, cohesive and efficient concentration of activists to work together to achieve REAL change.

Crotale
03-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Meh, different tools.

12 gauge scattergun vs. .308 rifle.

:D

Keith and stuff
03-30-2012, 03:48 AM
Re: masshole invasion

My gf and I moved from ma to nh. We're the types who are moving up

All our [statist] ma friends think we're crazy


That makes sense. Since moving to NH, I've noticed many dozens of issues where some Democrats/statists in MA freak out about some liberty bill or another in NH. The comments to the articles are almost always overwhelmingly against freedom/NH. The statists hear/read about these bills and they think to themselves how horrible NH is and how they don't want to live there. The more progress we make in NH, the more of these bills will be proposed. The more of these bills that are proposed, the more the statists will want to not move to NH.

I wouldn't even mind if some of the statists in left NH and moved somewhere more like their imagined paradise (any of the other states.) There is already a project for them, the Free Lunch Project. http://freelunchproject.com/


Here are a few examples.

December 19, 2011
N.H. lawmakers propose border signs on all roads
By Jo-Anne MacKenzie jmackenzie@eagletribune.com
http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x1759192465/YOU-ARE-ABOUT-TO-ENTER-MASSACHUSETTS

Six GOP lawmakers want the Department of Transportation to erect signs along every unmarked road leading from New Hampshire into Massachusetts, stating: "Warning: Massachusetts Border 500 Feet."

The signs would be sponsored by businesses who want to help protect their customers from unwittingly breaking the law because they aren't aware what state they are in, several of the sponsors said.

New Hampshire's strange cigarette-tax argument
E-mail | Print | Comments (3) Posted by Jesse Singal March 18, 2011 02:42 PM
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/blogs/the_angle/2011/03/new_hampshires.html

But if anyone thinks I'm missing something and am wrong about this — particularly smokers who live near the border — I'd be curious to hear their take, and would encourage them to sound off in comments.

NH House approves allowing guns on campus
By Norma Love
Associated Press / January 4, 2012
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2012/01/04/nh_house_approves_allowing_guns_on_campus/

Opponents argued Wednesday that allowing guns on campuses, in classrooms and in state-owned buildings is dangerous.

State Rep. Stephen Shurtleff, D-Concord, said the bill would mean people could bring guns into the Verizon Wireless Arena and Fisher Cats baseball stadium in Manchester. The arena is the site of concerts, hockey games and other events.

"Imagine if there is a hip-hop concert at the Verizon arena," he said.

Seat belt battle goes on in N.H.
Holdout state weighs new bill
April 21, 2009|Norma Love, Associated Press
http://articles.boston.com/2009-04-21/news/29255024_1_seat-belt-new-hampshire-senate-committee

January 3, 2012
N.H. battle lines drawn over new gun laws
By John Toole jtoole@eagletribune.com
http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x1477838843/N-H-battle-lines-drawn-over-new-gun-laws

"This would dramatically increase risks for accidental discharge," the governor's office said.

NH legislator drops gun before safety meeting
By Associated Press
Tuesday, March 20, 2012
http://bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/20120320nh_legislator_drops_gun_before_safety_meet ing

A fellow committee member says Northwood Republican Rep. Kyle Tasker dropped the gun in the legislative office building on Tuesday before attending a meeting of the House Criminal Justice and Public Safety committee. Sanbornton Republican Rep. Dennis Fields says he saw it.

We're talking about: Gun laws protest at Plymouth State
Updated: Friday, 09 Dec 2011, 6:55 PM EST
Published : Friday, 09 Dec 2011, 6:55 PM EST
http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/were-talking-about%3A-gun-laws-protest-at-plymouth-state-20111209

NH implements new welfare limits for disabled
Posted: 02/19/12 at 3:50 pm
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/north/12006738096355/nh-implements-new-welfare-limits-for-disabled/

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) -- More than 1,100 New Hampshire families are losing state welfare assistance because they already get federal assistance for being disabled.

NH lawmaker suggests sending disabled ‘to Siberia’
By Associated Press
Thursday, March 10, 2011
http://bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/20110310nh_lawmaker_suggests_sending_disabled_to_s iberia

CONCORD, N.H. — A 91-year-old freshman Republican state lawmaker suggested New Hampshire’s mentally disabled should be shipped to Siberia and said he is unapologetic about the comment.

NH House passes birth control exemption
By Norma Love
Associated Press / March 7, 2012
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2012/03/07/nh_house_passes_birth_control_exemption/

CONCORD, N.H.—While the issue of birth control coverage plays out nationally, New Hampshire's Republican-controlled House voted Wednesday to allow employers with religious objections to exclude contraceptive coverage from their health plans.

NH lawmakers question Obama ballot status
By Associated Press
Tuesday, January 3, 2012
http://bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20120103nh_lawmakers_question_obama_ballot_status

State Rep. Laurence Rappaport, a Colebook Republican, said they asked the attorney general Tuesday morning to investigate, but have gotten no response. Rappaport said the issue is whether Obama is a natural-born citizen whose parents both were American citizens. He said Obama’s father was Kenyan and not a citizen, so Obama is not and should not be on the ballot.

NH proposal would make some TSA exams a crime
Posted: 03/01/11 at 7:35 pm Updated: 03/01/11 at 8:06 pm
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/north/12003672400546/nh-proposal-would-make-some-tsa-exams-a-crime/

MANCHESTER, N.H. -- A new proposal in New Hampshire would make some controversial TSA security exams a crime.

Slew of troubles for N.H. unions
Bills take aim at bargaining rights
By Garrett Brnger
January 30, 2012
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/01/30/slew-troubles-for-unions/cBdQA3S8cfvI2jzmk4PlxM/story.html

Bill prohibits NH from creating health exchange
March 8, 2012
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2012/03/08/bill_prohibits_nh_from_creating_health_exchange/

NH bill bars contracts with abortion providers
January 18, 2012
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2012/01/18/nh_bill_bars_insurance_coverage_for_abortions/

GOP leaders hail gun OK in N.H. capitol
By Sarah Schweitzer
Globe Staff / January 12, 2011
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2011/01/12/gop_leaders_hail_gun_ok_in_nh_capitol/

In Massachusetts, only law enforcement officials may carry guns in the State House.

nobody's_hero
03-30-2012, 06:03 AM
I'm gonna try to start up the F.V.I.P. (free Virgin Islands project). Ron Paul got a majority of the votes there, and I hear they don't get much snow.

Keith and stuff
03-30-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm gonna try to start up the F.V.I.P. (free Virgin Islands project). Ron Paul got a majority of the votes there, and I hear they don't get much snow.

Ron Paul didn't get the majority of votes there but I think you may be on to something. Is the Virgin Islands like Puerto Rico? May it vote to become a separate nation?

Crotale
03-30-2012, 02:16 PM
I'm gonna try to start up the F.V.I.P. (free Virgin Islands project). Ron Paul got a majority of the votes there, and I hear they don't get much snow.

There's no point in that mate. The FSP is already well-established.

Crotale
04-07-2012, 02:24 PM
Ron Paul didn't get the majority of votes there but I think you may be on to something. Is the Virgin Islands like Puerto Rico? May it vote to become a separate nation?

The Virgin Islands probably aren't big enough. :D

newyearsrevolution08
06-19-2012, 01:21 PM
So what is everyones take on the freestateproject?

my wife just finished the rn nursing program and will be getting her license. She can then transfer that license to other states SO why not get out of California?

guns, medical marijuana, no taxes, a ton of liberty lovers?

what is the downsides besides being cold? I used to live in Alaska in my younger days but now in Cali SO who knows maybe cold is better for me and I need to go back lol.

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-20-2012, 12:49 AM
I want to move to Louisiana. 0.18% property tax, and the first 75k isn't taxed. Hell yeah!

newyearsrevolution08
06-22-2012, 09:03 AM
I want to move to Louisiana. 0.18% property tax, and the first 75k isn't taxed. Hell yeah!

Its sad that we have to decide where to get property simply based on b.s. taxes.

PierzStyx
06-22-2012, 09:28 AM
I just moved to Idaho last year but i definetly will keep an eye on NH and if things continue and as i build up my savings and resume i will be heading there.

Idaho is a good state as far as overall freedom goes.

PierzStyx
06-22-2012, 09:29 AM
So what is everyones take on the freestateproject?

my wife just finished the rn nursing program and will be getting her license. She can then transfer that license to other states SO why not get out of California?

guns, medical marijuana, no taxes, a ton of liberty lovers?

what is the downsides besides being cold? I used to live in Alaska in my younger days but now in Cali SO who knows maybe cold is better for me and I need to go back lol.

Move from CA. NOW. Just about anywhere would be a better choice. CA is one of the worst states in the Union, and tottering on collapse. I moved to Idaho from Santa Clara, CA for just that reason. NH would be a much better choice, by FAR.

newyearsrevolution08
06-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Totally agree, just waiting for my wife to finish up her RN Licensing which we can then transfer to other states.

Still debating her getting a job here first to stack up some moving cash. I am hoping to buy land in New Hampshire and start a homestead and be 100% offgrid and self sufficient. I love the freestateproject ideals in general and know we would be able to barter our services with others at first until we establish ourselves locally.

I can't stand Cali anymore.

Bastiat's The Law
06-22-2012, 12:34 PM
The FSP needs to be started in the least populated states if you want to maximize your potential. States like Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas. A couple thousand liberty-minded people could have enormous sway on these smaller states. I think it would be revolutionary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/USA_states_population_map_2007_color.svg/1000px-USA_states_population_map_2007_color.svg.png

PierzStyx
06-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Totally agree, just waiting for my wife to finish up her RN Licensing which we can then transfer to other states.

Still debating her getting a job here first to stack up some moving cash. I am hoping to buy land in New Hampshire and start a homestead and be 100% offgrid and self sufficient. I love the freestateproject ideals in general and know we would be able to barter our services with others at first until we establish ourselves locally.

I can't stand Cali anymore.

Neither could I. The state has gone insane. Good luck on your efforts.

PierzStyx
06-24-2012, 01:51 PM
The FSP needs to be started in the least populated states if you want to maximize your potential. States like Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas. A couple thousand liberty-minded people could have enormous sway on these smaller states. I think it would be revolutionary.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/USA_states_population_map_2007_color.svg/1000px-USA_states_population_map_2007_color.svg.png

I agree. I would say South Dakota, Montana, and Idaho. They're already really good states, but could be even better.

John F Kennedy III
06-24-2012, 01:57 PM
Barring any unforeseen changes I will be leaving Cali for good around the beginning of August. For New York City though. At least I'll be closer to New Hampshire :)

GeorgiaAvenger
06-24-2012, 02:02 PM
They should have chosen Wyoming, Montana, or North or South Dakota.

John F Kennedy III
06-24-2012, 03:34 PM
They should have chosen Wyoming, Montana, or North or South Dakota.

If enough of us in the liberty movement would band together we could take control of New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota. For some reason most people stay where they are.

TheTexan
06-24-2012, 04:11 PM
If enough of us in the liberty movement would band together we could take control of New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota. For some reason most people stay where they are.

Indeed we could. We could have our freedom in a matter of years.

But *cough* some people *cough* are still pushing the idea of Rand 2016, as if that's the answer to our problems. Which is why they aren't really open to alternative ideas - they still think they can win the game of politics. (sigh)

specsaregood
06-24-2012, 04:14 PM
If enough of us in the liberty movement would band together we could take control of New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota. For some reason most people stay where they are.

Says the guy living in california. why don't you give north dakota a try and let us know? There are plenty of good reasons why people don't move.

Lothario
06-24-2012, 04:25 PM
Says the guy living in california. why don't you give north dakota a try and let us know? There are plenty of good reasons why people don't move.

If I wasn't tied to the film industry, I'd be gone in a heartbeat...Wyoming has some parts like Malibu, right?

Bastiat's The Law
06-24-2012, 04:39 PM
If enough of us in the liberty movement would band together we could take control of New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota. For some reason most people stay where they are.
New Hampshire has too many Massachusetts transplants. It's also double to triple the population of these smaller states. The Black Hills is a beautiful area by the way.

Slacker
06-24-2012, 07:15 PM
New Hampshire has Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren as next door neighbors. I'm in RI and I want to move as far away as possible from them. Once those socialists states fail and they have no more welfare checks left to give, Occutards will flood over the border into NH and they'll start demanding Free Staters pay their fair share.

Alaska looks much more attractive...

Crotale
06-25-2012, 01:03 PM
Why on earth move to Idaho, the Dakotas, Wyoming or anywhere else? The FSP is well established and there's no use in across a load of states.

Crotale
08-20-2012, 07:02 PM
..

Crotale
08-24-2012, 04:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmWsZ81Ipg&feature=g-u-u

amy31416
08-24-2012, 05:00 AM
If enough of us in the liberty movement would band together we could take control of New Hampshire, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota. For some reason most people stay where they are.

Moving absolutely sucks when you have "stuff." You have to make things very appealing to motivate people.

WilliamShrugged
08-24-2012, 05:30 AM
Why on earth move to Idaho, the Dakotas, Wyoming or anywhere else? The FSP is well established and there's no use in across a load of states.

Don't go to Idaho. Mormon voters that care more about a candidates religion than freedom make this state a lost cause. Plus the state has a sales, income, and property tax.

Badger Paul
08-24-2012, 06:17 AM
Glad to see you guys keep going strong after a decade. Congrats!

Crotale
08-24-2012, 11:29 AM
Don't go to Idaho. Mormon voters that care more about a candidates religion than freedom make this state a lost cause. Plus the state has a sales, income, and property tax.

Well if anyone is moving for liberty purposes I can't see any logic in choosing anywhere but New Hampshire. The FSP is well established and there is a reason NH was selected. The fact that over 1,000 activists have already moved there also makes a big difference.

I can see why people would choose other areas for difference reasons - Florida for the weather, Nevada for the gambling, New York for the city or anywhere else for familial reasons - but if liberty is the purpose of your migration, then it simply has to be New Hampshire.

NickOdell
08-24-2012, 12:05 PM
I'm thinking I'm going to apply to Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH. Hopefully I'd be able to get an internship/job right away. It will be a huge change -- moving from Oregon, no family there in NH, and I'd be 18. Wow. It does seem like the ideal place to live, though.

Crotale
08-24-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm thinking I'm going to apply to Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH. Hopefully I'd be able to get an internship/job right away. It will be a huge change -- moving from Oregon, no family there in NH, and I'd be 18. Wow. It does seem like the ideal place to live, though.

Then NH would be a great choice because members of the FSP will help you settle in, besides, you'll be at college - plenty of people at college to hang around with. :)

Keith and stuff
08-24-2012, 10:16 PM
I'm thinking I'm going to apply to Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH. Hopefully I'd be able to get an internship/job right away. It will be a huge change -- moving from Oregon, no family there in NH, and I'd be 18. Wow. It does seem like the ideal place to live, though.

Good luck with the ap, Dartmouth is one of the top colleges in the world so it is hard to get in. Please consider applying for other colleges in nh, also. And the greater boston area is another option, it is the college center of the US.

Tinnuhana
08-24-2012, 11:12 PM
If you're in-state, the tuition at the state colleges is pretyy cheap.

NickOdell
08-27-2012, 02:23 PM
Good luck with the ap, Dartmouth is one of the top colleges in the world so it is hard to get in. Please consider applying for other colleges in nh, also. And the greater boston area is another option, it is the college center of the US.

Thanks! I think I have the grades/scores to get in (I'll likely be valedictorian or salutatorian). We'll see. I have to take two more SAT tests though, because Dartmouth requires subject tests. Most colleges (even most Ivy Leagues) say they are just optional, but whatever. I also really want to go to Stanford, just because its such a good school, but its in California :/

What other colleges would you recommend in NH? The main thing I'm looking for is financial aid, honestly, so private colleges are generally better for out of state. I want to study mathematics/statistics and become an actuary/statistician.


If you're in-state, the tuition at the state colleges is pretyy cheap.

Yeah, that's why its tempting to stay in Oregon. I could likely go for free at UO or OSU.

pochy1776
08-27-2012, 03:07 PM
Can't I love my hometown too damn much to leave. I Hope Iwill be moving to Concord or Hanover soon for something. I will try to find some damn excuse so my parents would not shun me.

pochy1776
08-27-2012, 03:08 PM
If you're in-state, the tuition at the state colleges is pretyy cheap.

Colleges should only be private and for the worthy. The middle class should go to trade school (much better and more economical.)

pochy1776
08-27-2012, 03:14 PM
Thanks! I think I have the grades/scores to get in (I'll likely be valedictorian or salutatorian). We'll see. I have to take two more SAT tests though, because Dartmouth requires subject tests. Most colleges (even most Ivy Leagues) say they are just optional, but whatever. I also really want to go to Stanford, just because its such a good school, but its in California :/

What other colleges would you recommend in NH? The main thing I'm looking for is financial aid, honestly, so private colleges are generally better for out of state. I want to study mathematics/statistics and become an actuary/statistician.



Yeah, that's why its tempting to stay in Oregon. I could likely go for free at UO or OSU.

I hope you get a scholarship, College is too damn expensive, especially Darthmouth. If you want Ivy League, go to Yale or Harvard or if you have a time machine go to Yale or Harvard circa 1956. Also, look your damn best: Navy Blazer, Oxford shirt, Strip repp tie, chinos and penny loafers. This should be damn required for every college boy in america, girls wear dresses. Only pot smokers wear sweatshirts and and jeans. I hope you do become what you want to become. And take some liberal arts classes the ivy league is good at that. Make every use of your collegiate time. And if you need extra schooling: Pick Law or Medicine, those are the only things that are worth another damn 4 years.

KMX
09-11-2012, 02:07 PM
11
http://freestateproject.org/sites/all/themes/fsp960/images/header-logo.jpg (http://freestateproject.org/)
1

Free State Project - New Hampshire
http://freestateproject.org/

11
I am 99% sure I will be in New Hampshire this spring. My wife is going to be a Free Stater as well. We want Liberty or DEATH!

I would really like to see this experiment succeed and gain enough power to control the politics of New Hampshire. In order for the general population to take Libertarianism seriously, they'll need to see it in action. The Free State State project can provide that framework.

So. Who plans on moving to New Hampshire this year?

KMX
09-11-2012, 02:07 PM
I will be there in the Spring 2013!

cucucachu0000
09-11-2012, 03:23 PM
anybody know how the jobs market is there? my girlfriend and i are looking for a place to move out of state were both tired of Jersey. shes an RN and ive spend the last 4 years working at a warehouse but still looking for a more permanent employment im only 23 and im ready to work from the bottom up.

Keith and stuff
09-11-2012, 03:39 PM
anybody know how the jobs market is there? my girlfriend and i are looking for a place to move out of state were both tired of Jersey. shes an RN and ive spend the last 4 years working at a warehouse but still looking for a more permanent employment im only 23 and im ready to work from the bottom up.

I think VT has the lowest unemployment rate East of the Mississippi River and NH has the 2nd lowest unemployment rate.

There are hospitals and doctors offices all over NH but the population is concentrated in southeastern NH and especially within the Manchester area, the coast and near the MA border.

The job market is a lot better in NH than most of the country. The market isn't as strong in MA but there are a lot more people in MA so there are more overall jobs. The pay also tends to be a little better as you get closer to Boston. So for example, someone in IT might make 64K in Nashua, NH, 67k in Burlington, MA and 70k in Boston. If you work in MA, you have to pay MA income taxes for the days you work in MA, though. And, the closer to Boston you get, the more traffic there is.

Imagine it working like the NYC market except on a smaller scale (only 5 million people in the Boston MA-NH-RI market).

Check this out. Lot of good info. http://freestateproject.org/jobs

Here are some highlights of that document. I recommend joining https://www.facebook.com/groups/fspjobalert/
Here is a good search engine http://www.indeed.com/

cucucachu0000
09-11-2012, 03:51 PM
that was fast thanks alot ill definitely check that stuff out

dbill27
09-11-2012, 03:54 PM
New Hampshire, wedged between the two most left wing states in the country. Only a matter of time before the liberals start migrating to nh when mass and vermont tax them to much, they'll quickly vote to make anything the FSP has done irrelevant.

KMX
09-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Your wrong about that. FSP already has over 30 people in office. With many many more on the way. Plus the 1,000s of activist.

In NH the elected officals really don't even get paid. Everyone is a full time job working citizen. They sign "the pledge" before getting elected. No income or sales tax ever.

NH get's most of it's money from people who travel and enjoy the tax free state.

Keith and stuff
09-12-2012, 10:28 AM
In NH the elected officals really don't even get paid. Everyone is a full time job working citizen. They sign "the pledge" before getting elected. No income or sales tax ever.

Here are the results of the 9/11 New Hampshire Democratic Primary.

New Hampshire - 291 of 301 Precincts Reporting - 97%
Name Party Votes Vote %
Hassan , Maggie Dem 44,600 54%
Cilley , Jackie Dem 32,252 39%
Kennedy , Bill Dem 5,789 7%

None of those candidates are liberty candidates. However, the most sane candidate won. You know, the candidate that is against a new broad based tax. That makes sense. In NH, Democrats are opposed to income and sales taxes. Taxes are bad. It is the NH way. It has always been the NH way. It will always be the NH way. If someone likes taxes, they aren't likely to move to NH. If someone likes taxes and is from NH, there is a good chance they will move away from NH and go to NY, FL or MA.

Hassan campaigned that we need to NOT create a new broad based tax (personal income tax, general sales tax, state property tax), for medical marijuana, for major school reform which allows property taxes to be reduced...
Cilley campaigned that it was crazy that everyone takes The Pledge against a new broad based tax. The said we need to have a conversation. She also campaign for medical marijuana and against free staters.
Kennedy campaign that we need a 4% income tax to reduce property taxes, for medical marijuana, and for right-to-work.

Anti Federalist
09-12-2012, 11:21 AM
Glad to see silly Cilly lost.

Ovide for Gov.

KMX
09-12-2012, 11:45 AM
Thanks for that Keith.

Keith and stuff
09-12-2012, 12:09 PM
New Hampshire, wedged between the two most left wing states in the country. Only a matter of time before the liberals start migrating to nh when mass and vermont tax them to much, they'll quickly vote to make anything the FSP has done irrelevant.

I don't understand what you mean because you used the words left wing and liberal. If by liberal, you mean socially free, that is pretty accurate.

Personal Freedom Ranking
http://mercatus.org/sites/all/modules/custom/mercatus_50_states/files/Freedom50States2011.pdf
1. OR 0.250
2. VT 0.205
3. NV
4. IN
5. AK
6. MO
7. ME 0.091
8. CO
9. ID
10. NM
11. NH 0.084

Sure, the infomation could be off a little, but look at it.
NH is bordered by VT on 1 side and ME on the other side. Together, the 3 states make up the region in the US with the most personal freedom, Northern New England.

On the other hand, if by left wing you meant statist, NY and NJ are the 2 statist states according to the ranking. Maybe the ranking is a littlle off and CA is the most statist state. http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011

As for taxes, they are pretty high in VT, ME and to some extent, MA. However, since taxes are so low in NH, politicians in near-by states mention NH as a reason for not increasing taxes in their states. Even the Democratic governor of VT recently said that. The Republican governor of ME is trying to change ME to be more like NH (to be freer).

NH has been the freest part of New England for 100s of years. People have been moving to NH for more freedom that whole time. It hasn't been overrun with statists compared to any other state yet. In fact, NH is the freest state.

Look at the recent election results. Nashua is the 2nd largest city in NH. It is in the NH/MA border (45 minutes from Boston) and leans Democratic. Here are the election results.
Governor (D) Nashua ~ Totals
Jackie Cilley 911
Maggie Hassan 2,596
Bill Kennedy 303
Maggie signed The Pledge to veto any new broad based taxes. Jackie called for a conversation on the issue. Bill called for creating a 4% person income tax to reduce property taxes.

Who won? Maggie won huge in Nashua, a Democrat leaning city, in the Democrat race. Democrats are only 30% or so of voters in NH but the ones that tend to move to NH from MA don't even like taxes. Bill only got 303 votes in the city of 86,000 people.

What about the 70% of voters in NH? How do you think they feel?

KMX
09-13-2012, 10:39 AM
Hell yeah!

Live Free or DIE!!!

Better start packing ;0)

KMX
09-14-2012, 08:48 AM
So anyone thought about it?

KMX
09-16-2012, 09:47 AM
that was fast thanks alot ill definitely check that stuff out

Please do!