Teenager killed by neighborhood watch captain [Archive]

BlackTerrel

03-11-2012, 05:15 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1335984.html?ref=mostpopular

An attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin, the teenager shot to death last month by a neighborhood watch captain in an Orlando, Fla., suburb, said police withheld the shooter's violent past from the slain youth's family.

Police initially told Martin’s family that George Zimmerman, 28, admitted to shooting Martin, 17, on Feb. 26, after he called 911 and reported a suspicious person, said the attorney, Benjamin Crump. Zimmerman said the shooting was in self-defense, police said.

Zimmerman, who is white, has not been charged in the death of Martin, who was black. Police in Sanford, where the shooting occurred, told Martin’s family that Zimmerman had a “squeaky-clean” record and that’s why they had not arrested him, according to Tracy Martin, the teen’s father.

Crump said public records show that Zimmerman was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer.

“They just lied to the family,” Crump said. “They just couldn’t see why [Zimmerman] would do anything wrong or be violent. But not only do you know the guy killed this kid, because he admitted to it, you knew that he has a propensity for violence because of his past record.”

The Orange County Clerk of Courts website shows a man named George Zimmerman, 28, was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.

An email to Sanford Chief Bill Lee was not immediately returned on Friday evening. A phone number for Zimmerman has been disconnected. He could not be reached for comment.

In an interview with HuffPost on Thursday, Tracy Martin said that when he asked police why Zimmerman hadn't been charged, officers told him "they respected [Zimmerman's] background, that he studied criminal justice for four years and that he was squeaky clean." He continued: "My question to them was, did they run my child's background check? They said yes. I asked them what they came up with, and they said nothing. So I asked if Zimmerman had a clean record, did that give him the right to shoot and kill an unarmed kid?"

Crump has asked law enforcement officials to turn over the 911 tapes recorded the night Martin was killed. He has since filed a public records lawsuit to get the recordings.

The teenager was on his way back from a convenience store during halftime of the NBA All-Star game when Zimmerman began following him in his car, police said.

Chief Lee on Thursday said that Zimmerman called 911 and reported a suspicious person. “For some reason he felt that Trayvon, the way that he was walking or appeared, seemed suspicious to him,” Lee told HuffPost. “He called this in and at one part of this initial call [the dispatcher] recommends him not to follow Trayvon. A police officer is on the way at that point.”

Lee said Zimmerman instead followed Martin. A confrontation ensued, and soon after he shot the teen, the chief said.

BlackTerrel

03-11-2012, 11:46 PM

How come they didn't arrest the guy? So one can just say it was in self defense and get away with it?

I don't see how it's self defense when the teen wasn't armed.

BlackTerrel

03-19-2012, 08:16 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html?ref=mostpopular

SANFORD, Fla. -- Austin McLendon hasn't been the same since that night three Sundays ago when Trayvon Martin was killed.

His mother says he's been arguing with his siblings more than usual. His 8th grade teachers have called home saying that he's become angry and lax in his schoolwork. He seems stressed out, distracted and consumed, they say.

Austin was standing less than 20 yards away from Martin when he was shot on the night of February 26. He didn't see much that night, but says he can't shake the screams for help that he heard or the thunderclap of gunfire that nearly shook him from his shoes.

The screams rattle around in his daydreams, so loud at night that sleep hasn't come easily. And he can't stop asking himself a thousand what-ifs: What if he could have stopped it? What if he had looked "suspicious" that night, and not Martin?

"I picture myself back over where I saw it, and it sticks in the back of my mind," McLendon told HuffPost Black Voices on Saturday afternoon at his family's home. "Sometimes I'll, like, not be listening to the teacher, and I'll daydream or just think off about it. I've been feeling bad for him and his family."

According to police, George Zimmerman, 28, the self-appointed captain of the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood watch, has admitted that he shot and killed Martin, 17, who Zimmerman described as "suspicious" in a 911 call made shortly before the shooting. He told the police that he shot the teen, who had come up from Miami a week or so earlier to visit his father, in self-defense. The police said he was licensed to carry the 9mm pistol he was carrying the night of the shooting. Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged in the killing.

"They still haven't arrested him yet," Austin said, his chin tucked low. "That's pretty much the main thing that's upsetting me."

Few of his friends at school understand why he's so upset.

"Not many middle school kids watch the news," he said.

Meanwhile, Martin's family and a growing legion of supporters across the country have taken to national television news programs, Facebook and Twitter and organized petition drives, rallies and protests calling for Zimmerman's arrest. More than 285,220 people have signed one petition on the Change.org website. Some say the handling of the case comes on the heels of a string of racially charged incidents that have further strained relations between the black community and the police...

wannaberocker

03-19-2012, 10:44 PM

Personally i dont like the whole "sign a petition" and get the case heard system. There should be no place in the justice system for popular vote.

That said, the Zimmerman guy sounds like a wackjob. These neighbourhood watch folks often remind me of the character Anthony Kiedis and Flea Play in the movie The Chase. THey always do more harm than good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9a0SM46D7M

phill4paul

03-20-2012, 04:30 AM

It get's more egregious. Narcotics cops questioning witnesses, as opposed to homocide detectives, and leading their statements. 'Watch Captain' Zimmerman supposedly slurring his words on 911 tapes, yet, no toxicology testing was done. Oh, and better yet...he was a cop wanna be.

In this world things go like this....

Cops
Family of cops
Friends of cops

Everyone else.

Philhelm

03-20-2012, 07:14 AM

Would you expect anything different?

These days? Yes.

Victor Grey

03-20-2012, 08:14 AM

My best guess this Zimmerman fellow walked up all wide-armed and ready to the other one like he was the commanding Sheriff of the Suburbs, and when the kid told him where to go in response to the approach, he in turn responded as you could predict a person with Zimmerman's attitude would. He went out of his way to escalate the situation, then in the end he shot the other guy.

I am going to reserve judgement on the race aspect had all to do with it though, that could be or could not. The kid was of course also suffering under that other dangerous social "crime." He was a teenager.
You can't have those out after 5, of course.

I wouldn't feel safe with this guy at that age if I was purple and it was noon. I'd say he thinks like he's some hero.

It is stated in the article that he reported him as a suspicious person before it happened. My bet would be that guy's definition of suspicious person would of been,
anyone but him outdoors at the time. Didn't even question the person before he called in.

All the signs point toward that Zimmerman was looking for a fight, and trying to push for one if one was there to be had. Might not of premeditatively wanted to shoot him but he did want to do what lead to it.

That all is just pure personal speculation by the way.
I'm not on a jury for this one, so I'll reserve some right to be a little more hypothetical based on the provided information, and guess. Could be completely wrong.

carmaphob

03-20-2012, 09:12 AM

Voluntary Man

03-20-2012, 09:36 AM

Cowlesy

03-20-2012, 09:37 AM

Obama's justice department is now involved.....

wannaberocker

03-20-2012, 09:59 AM

Obama's justice department is now involved.....

yeah good luck with them, they are the true outlaws.

AFPVet

03-20-2012, 10:40 AM

Obama's justice injustice department is now involved.....

Fixed it for ya ;)

The Free Hornet

03-20-2012, 11:45 AM

Personally i dont like the whole "sign a petition" and get the case heard system. There should be no place in the justice system for popular vote.

I don't think the power should rest in the hands of the DA or the police either. The aggrieved party ought to be able to get a grand jury seated (or something). I suspect the reason Zimmerman hasn't been charged is because he wasn't arrested on the scene. With the same facts and an arrest, the DA would press for first-degree murder. With no arrest, there is little politcal pressure to charge him. Plus, they have to address the question, "if he's so guilty, why didn't you arrest him?". There is a lot of internal and political pressure to defend whatever decision is made on the scence where facts may be fresh but are usually incomplete. The DAs wants the political support of the police chiefs and unions.

Citizens should be able to get public officers and employees tried for criminal offenses. Begging justice from the people who wronged you is perverse.

BlackTerrel

03-20-2012, 08:18 PM

Personally i dont like the whole "sign a petition" and get the case heard system. There should be no place in the justice system for popular vote

It's a start. This Zimmerman killed an unarmed kid and is still free.

Outside of vigiliante justice (which could end with more innocents dead) what else should people do?

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

03-20-2012, 08:30 PM

Unfortunately, instead of focusing on the alleged murderer, it is causing people to question the "stand your ground" laws.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/us/florida-teen-shooting-law/

Cops routinely kill unarmed people. This, being private security of sorts, is a pretty rare event. And I've heard that he followed the kid before killing him, so it's hardly a "stand your ground" issue anyway.

Stupified

03-20-2012, 08:31 PM

Personally i dont like the whole "sign a petition" and get the case heard system. There should be no place in the justice system for popular vote.

You mean, like a jury? And how else are we supposed to let justice system know - peacefully - that we're not going to take this bullshit much longer?

Vanilluxe

03-20-2012, 09:48 PM

The murder shouted a profanity and possibly a racial slur over the phone line before shooting the teen. The police are still doing nothing about it, even though they heard evidence over phone records. If the murder was convicted, this might be considered a hate crime.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html

puppetmaster

03-20-2012, 10:33 PM

BlackTerrel

03-20-2012, 10:48 PM

George Zimmerman, 28, an aspiring police officer who once attended a citizen police academy

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

How big of an idiot is this guy if he's 28 year old and can't even become a cop? This is like saying "an aspiring subway sandwich artist".

BlackTerrel

03-21-2012, 07:38 PM

Million hoodie march in NYC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/trayvon-martin-million-hoodie-march_n_1371403.html

NEW YORK — The parents of a black teenager shot to death by a Hispanic neighborhood watch captain in Florida marched in his memory on Wednesday with hundreds of other people demanding arrests in the case.

"We're not going to stop until we get justice," said the teenager's father, Tracy Martin, after thanking the crowd. "My son did not deserve to die."

Martin's son, 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, was killed Feb. 26, in Sanford, Fla. He was returning to a gated community in the city after buying candy at a convenience store. He was unarmed and was wearing a hooded sweat shirt, called a hoodie.

The neighborhood watch captain, George Zimmerman, has not been charged in the shooting. Zimmerman has said the teen attacked him and he shot him in self-defense.

On Wednesday night, demonstrators chanted "we want arrests" during the Million Hoodie March in Manhattan's Union Square.

The teen's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told the crowd: "My heart is in pain, but to see the support of all of you really makes a difference."

The demonstrators responded: "God bless you!"

The case has ignited a furor against the police department of the Orlando suburb of 53,500 people, prompting rallies and a protest in Gov. Rick Scott's office on Tuesday. The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said it is sending its community relations service this week to Sanford to "address tension in the community."

Earlier in the week, the federal agency opened a civil rights probe into the shooting, and in Florida, Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger said a grand jury will meet April 10 to consider evidence in the case.

Yeah right. An unarmed 17 year old attacks a guy with a gun?? Are we on Mars? Someone with common sense step into this case please.

awake

03-21-2012, 07:42 PM

What is not being mentioned is that Zimmerman is Hispanic... the silence on this is key to the political interests who are riding the crises to gain more power.

jmdrake

03-21-2012, 08:04 PM

Read a couple other stories. The "watch Captain" needs to be arrested for murder.
He stalked assaulted and shot the kid. The kid was unarmed.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

I need to bookmark this thread for the next time there is senseless police violence and someone falsely accuses those who speak out of "cop hating". It isn't hating on "cops". It's hating on "goons with guns" who try to mask their violence behind a thin veneer of "fighting crime". For self defense to be legitimate there must actually be a deadly threat.

jmdrake

03-21-2012, 08:06 PM

What is not being mentioned is that Zimmerman is Hispanic... the silence on this is key to the political interests who are riding the crises to gain more power.

Zimmerman sounds like a German name, but I'll take your word for it. Still there is racial tension between blacks and hispanics in some parts of the country.

BlackTerrel

03-21-2012, 08:07 PM

What is not being mentioned is that Zimmerman is Hispanic... the silence on this is key to the political interests who are riding the crises to gain more power.

Take a look one post above you at the article I quoted. It's the first sentence in the article.

This is not about political interests - it's about a thug getting away with killing an unarmed teen.

MelissaWV

03-21-2012, 08:11 PM

The race/ethnicity of the person doing the shooting does not negate the probability that this was at least in part about the impression that a dark-skinned teen walking around a gated community at night was up to no good. It seems that, from his communications with that girl before he died, he knew he was being followed... which would account for his walking faster, pulling up his hood, etc..

BlackTerrel

03-21-2012, 08:12 PM

Zimmerman sounds like a German name, but I'll take your word for it. Still there is racial tension between blacks and hispanics in some parts of the country.

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/03/20/George-Zimmerman-and-Trayvon-Martin_620x350.jpg

He looks Hispanic but this isn't about tension between Hispanics and blacks. It's about one failure of a human being who happens to be Hispanic. News reports say that Zimmerman who is 28 years old was "an aspiring cop"? Do you know how much of an idiot you have to be to be 28 years old and be an "aspiring cop"? It's not brain surgery. Anyone with an IQ above 70 can become a cop. Guy was a loser, wanna be tough guy and a racist - all three are usually correlated.

He can be head mumbling "fucking coons" at the end of the 911 recording.

jmdrake

03-21-2012, 08:12 PM

Personally i dont like the whole "sign a petition" and get the case heard system. There should be no place in the justice system for popular vote.

Well actually the popular vote is the only recourse the public has against a prosecutor's decision not to prosecute. So a petition is quite appropriate.

jmdrake

03-21-2012, 08:16 PM

He looks Hispanic but this isn't about tension between Hispanics and blacks. It's about one failure of a human being who happens to be Hispanic. News reports say that Zimmerman who is 28 years old was "an aspiring cop"? Do you know how much of an idiot you have to be to be 28 years old and be an "aspiring cop"? It's not brain surgery. Anyone with an IQ above 70 can become a cop. Guy was a loser, wanna be tough guy and a racist - all three are usually correlated.

He can be head mumbling "fucking coons" at the end of the 911 recording.

I don't disagree with your assessment that he's an idiot. But I'd say the same thing if he was a white racist. Your last point kind of underscores the point I was making (or attempting to make) which is that just because Zimmerman is hispanic doesn't mean he isn't racist against blacks. When I was in HS the hispanics got along with the racist whites just fine. And I'm not trying to imply there's some great racial rift between blacks and hispanics. Just that a hispanic that doesn't like blacks (or a black that doesn't like hispanics) isn't unheard of.

jmdrake

03-21-2012, 08:28 PM

Just to be fair, here, the fact that Zimmerman was charged with a crime against a cop (for which there appears to be no accompanying primary charge) does NOT constitute evidence of anything -- especially since the charges were apparently dropped, which indicates that everyone from cop to judge recognized the charges as erroneous.

That's not to say that the shooting was valid. I only mean to indicate that using a usually trumped up default charge, particularly when it was dropped, to impeach someone's character is probably the wrong way to go.

The charges were NOT dropped! They were expunged!

From the article:

Yet public records showed that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later expunged.

What's the difference you ask? Well most things don't go to trial these days. Sometimes prosecutors will offer defendants something called "expungeble probation" in order to get them to plead guilty or no contest. If you keep your nose clear for the required period of time (usually a year) the charge is wiped off your record. But it is not the same as the charges being dropped.

Stupified

03-21-2012, 08:31 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Read the comments section.

This country is not worth saving. Time to go Galt.

awake

03-21-2012, 09:20 PM

Take a look one post above you at the article I quoted. It's the first sentence in the article.

This is not about political interests - it's about a thug getting away with killing an unarmed teen.

I agree 100%. It is a monumental injustice. Unfortunatly the politics can not be seperated from this story, this injustice stems from it.

phill4paul

03-21-2012, 09:54 PM

Well I'm glad my brothers and cousin are in LE.

Btw, this guy needs to be arrested. This stinks to high heaven...

Brothers and cousins? You're in good standing then. A right good ward of the trustees. ;)

BlackTerrel

03-21-2012, 10:03 PM

I don't disagree with your assessment that he's an idiot. But I'd say the same thing if he was a white racist. Your last point kind of underscores the point I was making (or attempting to make) which is that just because Zimmerman is hispanic doesn't mean he isn't racist against blacks. When I was in HS the hispanics got along with the racist whites just fine. And I'm not trying to imply there's some great racial rift between blacks and hispanics. Just that a hispanic that doesn't like blacks (or a black that doesn't like hispanics) isn't unheard of.

I agree 100%. There are people of all races that are racist. Zimmerman happens to be Hispanic and racist by the evidence I've seen so far. And much worse - a murderer of an unarmed man.

Gary4Liberty

03-21-2012, 10:45 PM

Doesnt matter if it is about race or not. All murders are hate crimes. I want to know if the kid lived in that gated community or not. Also, if the kid attacked him Id say it was the kid who acted in self defense. The guy was armed and following him at night. That kid was scared as hell and have every fucking right to defend himself against that guy. That guy should be charged with stalking, and at least 2nd degree murder case closed. This is outrageous. He follows someone at night with a gun when the person hes following defends himself he kills him and claims self defense. Thats like someone breaking into your house at night and when you go to hit him with the baseball bat he shoots you and claims self defense and the cops let him go. OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Voluntary Man

03-21-2012, 11:34 PM

The charges were NOT dropped! They were expunged!

From the article:

Yet public records showed that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later expunged.

What's the difference you ask? Well most things don't go to trial these days. Sometimes prosecutors will offer defendants something called "expungeble probation" in order to get them to plead guilty or no contest. If you keep your nose clear for the required period of time (usually a year) the charge is wiped off your record. But it is not the same as the charges being dropped.

We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

03-22-2012, 06:59 AM

I want to know if the kid lived in that gated community or not.

My understanding is that his father's girlfriend lives there. He was authorized to be there by a resident, I would guess.

whippoorwill

03-22-2012, 07:32 AM

Gary4Liberty

03-22-2012, 08:22 AM

We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.

His past record is irrelevant. You people remind me of the spin doctors on tv. Someone had a speeding ticket, cited for jaywalking and cited for music too loud one time. On TV you say. Oh this perp has had several brushes with the law in the past. He has a police record. What was he arrested for resisting arrest? Makes sense. You go by what he did to the kid. Not what he did in the past. Its clear. He stalked the kid, the child defended himself, he shot him and claimed self defense. That guy should be in jail. Common sense. Is everyone stupid? I am completely horrified what it has come to. Everyones brainwashed.

jmdrake

03-22-2012, 10:00 AM

We are both making assumptions based on this article: I am assuming that the charge was dropped, since it says the charge was expunged, and makes no mention of a conviction; while you are assuming that it was a conviction that was expunged, although the article makes no reference to a conviction. Either an arrest or a conviction can be expunged. Unless you have knowledge that there was a conviction, you are jumping to far greater conclusions than I did.

It is not my intention to defend this guy, only to point out that a default charge, not followed by a conviction, is not sufficient evidence to convict the guy in an unrelated case. Zimmerman might be the devil incarnate, but I can't determine that based on such a prior charge, and neither can anyone else.

Fair enough. I'm simply going by my own (admittedly limited) legal experience. In Tennessee the word "expunged" means expungible probation. It doesn't mean "charges were dropped". But this is Florida so it could have a different meaning there. Also as reporters aren't lawyers they could have used the wrong term. Regardless, depending on the circumstances dropped charges or even expunged charges can be used as evidence in a later proceeding. It would depend on the type of proceeding and if the defendant chose to testify.

jmdrake

03-22-2012, 10:27 AM

His past record is irrelevant. You people remind me of the spin doctors on tv. Someone had a speeding ticket, cited for jaywalking and cited for music too loud one time. On TV you say. Oh this perp has had several brushes with the law in the past. He has a police record. What was he arrested for resisting arrest? Makes sense. You go by what he did to the kid. Not what he did in the past. Its clear. He stalked the kid, the child defended himself, he shot him and claimed self defense. That guy should be in jail. Common sense. Is everyone stupid? I am completely horrified what it has come to. Everyones brainwashed.

I agree. I think the problem with these discussions is the tendency to treat what is really a policy question as a "online trial" with people playing defense attorney. If I was Zimmerman's attorney and this went to trial I would most certainly try to keep his past run ins with the law out. If I was a prosecutor I would do my best to get it in. That's one reason why defendants often do not testify in their own defense even if they really are innocent. Who knows what might get brought out in cross examination?

But the bigger policy question is, why is he not being arrested? Is this a proper application of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law as written? If yes then it clearly should be amended. If no then it needs to be clarified. Some (old) thoughts on the law.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html

Here's the part of the law in question:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

So go through the elements:
1) Was Zimmerman engaged in unlawful activity? No apparently.
2) Was he attacked? Well...that's where the argument is. And that's why this should go to trial IMO. Did Travon finally get pissed at Zimmerman, not knowing Zimmerman had a gun, and decide to beat down this guy he legitimately thought was stalking him? Or did Zimmerman initiate physical contact? (Who punched who first?) A jury should decide that.
3) Did Zimmerman reasonably believe that deadly force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm to himself? Well Travon had no weapon. According to a witness he had overpowered Zimmerman and was beating him up. (Zimmerman sounds like a real punk by the way considering that he couldn't handle a teenager that he outweighed by 100 lbs). This is another matter that a jury should decide.
4) Was anybody else in danger? No. Zimmerman hasn't even alleged that.
5) Was a forcible felony being prevented? No. (I assume "forcible felony" = rape, robbery or kidnapping).

Based on the law as written, prosecutors and police in Florida are not correctly applying it by saying they lack probable cause to arrest Zimmerman.

But here's how the law could/should be clarified.

1) Initiating a disturbance negates the self defense presumption. You shouldn't be able to pick a fight and the automagically claim "self defense". Yes there might be circumstances where it's still legitimate self defense, but you should have the burden to show that.

2) No self defense presumption for a disproportionate use of force. I call this the "take your beating like a man" clause. Zimmerman shot Travon because he was getting his butt whupped. If Travon had pulled a knife or gun that would be a different story. Which reminds me. I wonder how this would be playing out in the legal system and the media now if Travon had pulled a gun when he saw Zimmerman pulling his and killed Zimmerman? That would arguably be a better self defense claim. But would Travon now be facing murder charges as a young black male who killed a neighborhood watch captain?

Stupified

03-22-2012, 10:40 AM

The pictures of the youngman look like he was in middle school when they were took yet he was 17. That the lable of racist is flying and ...Moreover, the gunlaw in Florida is being demagoged. This smells like a classic Left wing Statist media blitz.

You've missed the point if you think there's still a difference between left wing media and right wing media. It's all designed to keep the wool over our eyes and only let us see what they want us to see.

jmdrake

03-22-2012, 11:07 AM

The pictures of the youngman look like he was in middle school when they were took yet he was 17. That the lable of racist is flying and ...Moreover, the gunlaw in Florida is being demagoged. This smells like a classic Left wing Statist media blitz.

Irrelevant. I've seen 17 year olds who look like they're 12 and 12 year olds who look like their 17. As for the "stand your ground" law it's not a gun law. It's a self defense law. It says nothing about guns but instead talks about deadly force. The law applies the same whether the deadly force used is a gun or a knife or a baseball bat. What is clear in this case is that the result is wrong. Was the law poorly written or has it been poorly applied? That's still an open question.

pcosmar

03-22-2012, 11:38 AM

As for the "stand your ground" law it's not a gun law. It's a self defense law.

This is truth.^

But the only person in this case with ""stand your Ground" grounds was this kid.

From the initial call of "suspicious person" To the confrontation and shooting.
Zimmerman was wrong.
The call was wrong.
Following was wrong.
Getting out of his vehicle and confronting him was wrong.
And shooting an unarmed kid was wrong.

This is at best, an Authoritarian out of control. and that is giving him all the benefit of doubt.

Voluntary Man

03-22-2012, 11:43 AM

Fair enough. I'm simply going by my own (admittedly limited) legal experience. In Tennessee the word "expunged" means expungible probation. It doesn't mean "charges were dropped". But this is Florida so it could have a different meaning there. Also as reporters aren't lawyers they could have used the wrong term. Regardless, depending on the circumstances dropped charges or even expunged charges can be used as evidence in a later proceeding. It would depend on the type of proceeding and if the defendant chose to testify.

In FL, dismissed charges are eligible for expunction.

As you say, whether his expunged charge would be admissible as evidence of predisposition would be a matter for the court to decide.

My own opinion is that such a prior charge is usually used to justify an arrest for which there usually exists no other justification. But, when such a charge is not trumped up, it is taken too seriously to avoid prosecution. The fact (as it appears) that Zimmerman, faced with such a charge, was able to avoid prosecution is probably evidence that he was innocent of the charge (because of the nature of the charge).

Again, I say this not to defend Zimmerman's actions in this case, but only to call attention to the folly of presuming his guilt, based solely on such a prior charge, especially when there is no evidence that the charge was even prosecuted.

If Zimmerman is convicted, even in the court of public opinion, it should be based on the facts of THIS case.

Having said that, there is an element of the FL law I find troubling. FL's list of forcible felonies could include almost any perceived threat, from the heinous to the frivolous.

Florida forcible felonies are:

- Kidnapping
- Murder
- Manslaughter
- Sexual Battery (Rape)
- Arson
- Treason
- Robbery
- Burglary
- Carjacking
- Home Invasion
- Aggravated Battery
- Aggravated Assault
- Aggravated Stalking
-Any other felony that involves the use or threat of violence against any person

Voluntary Man

03-22-2012, 11:50 AM

This is truth.^

But the only person in this case with ""stand your Ground" grounds was this kid.

From the initial call of "suspicious person" To the confrontation and shooting.
Zimmerman was wrong.
The call was wrong.
Following was wrong.
Getting out of his vehicle and confronting him was wrong.
And shooting an unarmed kid was wrong.

This is at best, an Authoritarian out of control. and that is giving him all the benefit of doubt.

See:

pcosmar made a solid case for Zimmerman's wrongdoing, without ever bringing up a prior dropped "assaulting an officer" charge.

+rep!

pcosmar

03-22-2012, 12:00 PM

See:

pcosmar made a solid case for Zimmerman's wrongdoing, without ever bringing up a prior dropped "assaulting an officer" charge.

+rep!

Thank you.
I don't often think in terms of "legal or illegal", but more in terms of "right and wrong"

(though I do recognize current "law" as a tactical consideration)

CaptainAmerica

03-22-2012, 12:28 PM

Total douche bag...he confronted(most likely started a fight) a teenager and got into a scuffle. Stupid people shouldn't own guns.

BamaAla

03-23-2012, 05:37 AM

xFiFtyOnE

03-23-2012, 07:42 AM

tod evans

03-23-2012, 07:58 AM

I don't buy into this "hate-crime" B.S. either.....

More useless legislation that should be repealed.

FOAD Al Sharpton!

pcosmar

03-23-2012, 08:09 AM

I don't buy into this "hate-crime" B.S. either.....

I don't either. But his comments could be used to suggest intent. That would take it from 2nd to 1st degree murder.

tod evans

03-23-2012, 08:12 AM

I don't either. But his comments could be used to suggest intent. That would take it from 2nd to 1st degree murder.

I agree, so put the guy on trial and move on.......

Letting the race baiters try the case in the media is horse-shit.

Stupified

03-23-2012, 11:40 AM

BlackTerrel

03-23-2012, 07:12 PM

MelissaWV

03-23-2012, 07:16 PM

Universal condemnation, assumption of guilt, and claims of understood intent: this thread sure is an interesting read.

I don't know any more about this case than is posted in this thread, but if the guy wasn't arrested at the scene or in the following month after/during the investigation, there has to be some compelling information. I do know that I'm not going to be whipped into a fury by Al Sharpton and the Huffington Post; I'd rather wait and see.

There is the repeated assertion that he acted in self-defense, but it seems to be pretty baseless in a very obvious way. No one is saying this guy should be hanged without a trial, but there's a lot of evidence to suggest there should at least be a trial. The 9-1-1 tape, the girlfriend's testimony (the police did not want to talk to her) that the victim said he was being watched/followed, the fact the kid wasn't actually armed, the fact the guy was told NOT to follow the kid, etc.. It all seems rather off-kilter. The police also did not run toxicology on someone whose speech was kind of iffy and claiming that a teen was essentially threatening him with a bag of Skittles.

In the meantime, on the other side of things, you have someone serving around a decade behind bars for setting up a webcam to tape his roommate having sex.

Something is very wrong here.

There are very few instances where someone dies at your hands, and you don't even get charged with anything.

A Son of Liberty

03-23-2012, 07:17 PM

BlackTerrel

03-23-2012, 07:23 PM

I wonder how many of the innocent children Obama has summarily sentenced to death in places like Pakistan and elsewhere, "looked like the son(s) he never had"?

Sick, disgusting pig. And you can quote me on that, feds.

He's a sick disgusting pig because he commented on a teenager that got shot in cold blood? What exactly is he supposed to say?

Danke

03-23-2012, 07:32 PM

He's a sick disgusting pig because he commented on a teenager that got shot in cold blood? What exactly is he supposed to say?

In these situations, Hypocrites should keep their mouths shut.

onlyrp

03-23-2012, 07:35 PM

He's a sick disgusting pig because he commented on a teenager that got shot in cold blood? What exactly is he supposed to say?

He's a sick disgusting pig because he doesn't make the same comment whenever a kid dies? What does that say?

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 08:00 PM

Has Dr. Paul made any statements or answered any questions on this case? The media has put responses from the other three Republican candidates out there but not Dr. Paul. I read a CBSnews.com piece that said the Paul campaign was contacted but did not respond.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 08:06 PM

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 08:20 PM

Ron has too much class to act like a pimp.My sense is that Dr. Paul might say some uncomfortable truths. I think he needs to do more to convince black and brown voters, many of whom are terrified of States' rights, that his position would be in the best interest of black people in a case like this.

economics102

03-23-2012, 08:25 PM

No self defense presumption for a disproportionate use of force. I call this the "take your beating like a man" clause. Zimmerman shot Travon because he was getting his butt whupped. If Travon had pulled a knife or gun that would be a different story. Which reminds me. I wonder how this would be playing out in the legal system and the media now if Travon had pulled a gun when he saw Zimmerman pulling his and killed Zimmerman? That would arguably be a better self defense claim. But would Travon now be facing murder charges as a young black male who killed a neighborhood watch captain?

I agree with everything you said except for the above quote.

In matters of self-defense I think claims of disproportional defense should face a very high barrier. I'm not going to go so far as to say it should NEVER be a relevant argument but very rarely I think.

People die all the time from getting hit with one wrong punch or a punch that knocks them out and sends them head-first into the pavement, etc. I know (knew) people who have died in exactly this way. And even when not fatal, people can be very seriously injured in weapon-less physical fights.

More importantly, let's say I'm the one being attacked and I believe my likely injuries will be limited to a broken rib or something minor like that. If I have the ability to prevent someone from breaking my rib by using lethal force, I should have every right to take such action. If my assailant's rationale is that he's willing to attack me using non-lethal violence on the grounds that he's willing to suffer injuries, but he's not going to use lethal threat of violence because he doesn't want to risk death -- well that's just bunk, because *I* would prefer not to be attacked at all!

In my view any individual who initiates any level of violence against another person loses the right to decide how that violence is escalated.

On the same note, I think the punishment for physical assault, even when it doesn't result in serious injuries, should be closer in line to the punishment for murder/manslaughter. I think it's a flaw in the way society thinks about the importance of liberty that, for example, they don't think decking someone in the face is a serious crime, especially if it doesn't result in serious injury. In my view when you initiate violence, 99% of your "crime" is violating the principle, only 1% is the actual level of carnage that results from your aggression.

tod evans

03-23-2012, 08:30 PM

My sense is that Dr. Paul might say some uncomfortable truths. I think he needs to do more to convince black and brown voters, many of whom are terrified of States' rights, that his position would be in the best interest of black people in a case like this.

Ron doesn't pander to any group of people, he has said over and over "It's all about individual liberty."

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 08:33 PM

cartemj06

03-23-2012, 08:33 PM

I find myself thinking about this story and wondering what actually happened. I heard the 911 tape, read a few news articles and the story is just fragmented and ond offered back in little pieces. One side of me is wondering if this will bring about the call to dis-arm citizens. I also wonder What the kid was up to if anything maybe he was just minding his own business maybe he wasn't no one knows for sure. The kid is being painted as a martyr and the the shooter as an authoritarian slime ball. This may be the case, it may not be, but we just don't have the info to make that decision yet and cooler heads should be asking questions not casting judgement calls. The media has written a narrative, the masses are in a stir and even people who don't know the story are judging the actions of both parties no one wants to be the 'ignoramus' who doesn't know. The fact is none of us know what happened. We all want to appear informed and some want to be the righteous champions of an issue or are motivated to make this story fit their issue. One thing that I can say confidently is that situations like this unfold in uncanny ways, some rapidly spiral out of control while some slowly unwind and others seem to resolve without any dramatic turns whatsoever.

There is a reason that Law enforcement officers are trained to anticipate the worse possible turn of events. If you wait until you need your gun to unholster it you won't have it in your hand when you need it, you will have it in your hand seconds after you needed it and maybe too late. I want to make myself clear here, I am not defending either man in this case, I am advocating for a healthy dose of skepticism regarding any report on this story. If we don't trust the media to fairly report an election when all the facts are there to be seen how can we conclude that they are being honest with us on anything else?

BlackTerrel

03-23-2012, 08:35 PM

He's a sick disgusting pig because he doesn't make the same comment whenever a kid dies? What does that say?

Is he asked about every kid in the world who has died? There are 6 billion people on earth I don't think it's fair to ask the President to comment on every one of them.

In this situation in what is a national story of injustice I think it's perfectly appropriate for the President to give an opinion.

BlackTerrel

03-23-2012, 08:36 PM

Ron has too much class to act like a pimp.

Speaking about a story in the news is acting like a pimp?

MelissaWV

03-23-2012, 08:40 PM

So your notion of fairness is to trust that this guy was threatened by a kid who was found not to have any weapon at all, and who the shooter followed (not the other way around)?

I am perfectly willing to think that the situation could have escalated very rapidly into something awful once the shooter confronted the teen. There is no reason to think that a teen being thus confronted by someone he'd seen following him and watching him (per his call to the girlfriend) would act polite and not be pissed off. There's definitely the potential that a young, athletic person made some kind of threatening move towards the shooter.

Of course, this was after the shooter admittedly followed the kid around. This was after the kid went and bought some Skittles, which was about the most threatening thing found on his corpse. This was after the diatribe on the 9-1-1 tape.

It stinks to high heaven, and some of us are not relying on "media reports."

People are arrested daily for so much less.

Should this have led to such mass-protests? No, but it should have at least led to an arrest.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 08:41 PM

Is he asked about every kid in the world who has died? There are 6 billion people on earth I don't think it's fair to ask the President to comment on every one of them.

In this situation in what is a national story of injustice I think it's perfectly appropriate for the President to give an opinion.

I believe his point may have been that the wars in [fill in the blank] are international stories, over which the president has direct oversight....yet no comment.

BlackTerrel

03-23-2012, 08:48 PM

I believe his point may have been that the wars in [fill in the blank] are international stories, over which the president has direct oversight....yet no comment.

A kid in America is dead and shot for no reason and the authorities are letting the guy who did it walk away free.

We have 100 other threads talking about the war in Afghanistan. I don't think there is a correlation here.

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 08:52 PM

Ron doesn't pander to any group of people, he has said over and over "It's all about individual liberty."You're right. However, cases like this give Dr. Paul an opportunity to explain how and why individual liberty and States' rights are in the best interest of those who suffer from racist brutality and institutionalized racism among local and state police forces.

Can you provide an in-character example?Can you clarify? An example of what?

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 08:53 PM

You can hear the someone screaming (I'm not saying it was the kid, but why would an armed man be screaming like that?) in the background, and then it stops abruptly with the gunshot.

It was the armed man screaming, because the armed man was getting pummeled while he was pinned to the ground.

According to whom? Our one and only eyewitness, in his statement published the day after the shooting:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Zimmerman stopped screaming because he finally wasn't being beaten any more.

phill4paul

03-23-2012, 08:54 PM

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 09:03 PM

Speaking about a story in the news is acting like a pimp?

Pandering is acting like a pimp.

MelissaWV

03-23-2012, 09:05 PM

It was the armed man screaming, because the armed man was getting pummeled while he was pinned to the ground.

According to whom? Our one and only eyewitness, in his statement published the day after the shooting:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Zimmerman stopped screaming because he finally wasn't being beaten any more.

Strange, because after being beaten so savagely, he had a bloody nose and a little blood on the back of his head.

What part of "do not interact" and the fact that there was zero reason to be driving around following a kid because he was wearing a hoodie in the rain ... is unclear? Aren't these arguments usually made at trial? There isn't going to be one. The cops get to decide, on site, whether or not to believe the self defense claim.

THAT should piss EVERYONE off, but yet we have defenders of the outcome even here.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 09:07 PM

You're right. However, cases like this give Dr. Paul an opportunity to explain how and why individual liberty and States' rights are in the best interest of those who suffer from racist brutality and institutionalized racism among local and state police forces.

Can you clarify? An example of what?

An example of a public statement you think it would be prudent for Ron to make on the matter.

Anti Federalist

03-23-2012, 09:16 PM

I'm just getting up to speed on this story, so RPFer's, help me out here, please.

Is this about the long and short of it?

1 - Shooter was a wanna be cop.

2 - Shooter was a "neighborhood watch" captain, i.e. - a buttinsky.

3 - Shooter had a long history of calling cops for the slightest thing.

4 - Shooter started following this kid, after being told by 911 not to follow him.

5 - Shooter kills the kid dead, after claiming the victim "had something in his hand".

6 - Shooter walks, after cops give him a "wink wink, nudge nudge".

7 - Outrage follows as the story is broken, not by the "media" but by the blogosphere.

8 - Summation - If Zimmerman had not acted like a jackass and waited until he got a government badge and uniform, he'd be on paid vacation right now.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 09:18 PM

Zimmerman is the reason why the liberals have an anti-gun agenda. He's the kinda guy they point the finger at and say SEE we need gun control. Fuck him. He's a douche. He should be in prison awaiting a bond hearing. But, the cops had a friend. They screwed the pooch trying to cover for him.
He was specifically told NOT to leave his vehicle and interact. He chose to. AFTER he was getting his ass kicked because he thought he was Billy-Bad-Ass he decided he needed to shoot an UNARMED teenager.
It's guys like him that keep guys like me from open carrying.

No. Their agenda is independent of rationalization. He's just one of the many rationalizations the anti-2nd Amendment crowd will resort to. Their motivations are no more noble than the motivation of the medieval lords disarming serfs. Only the propaganda has changed.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 09:20 PM

Strange, because after being beaten so savagely, he had a bloody nose and a little blood on the back of his head.

Being pinned to the ground and getting punched is no laughing matter. It is a real threat to both life and limb, and justifies a lethal response if one is available.

5 - Shooter kills the kid dead, after claiming the victim "had something in his hand".

No, 5 should be "shooter and shootee get into a physical confrontation and we don't know how it started. An eyewitness says the shooter was pinned to the ground and getting beaten when he shot his attacker."

cstarace

03-23-2012, 09:23 PM

No, 5 should be "shooter and shootee get into a physical confrontation and we don't know how it started. An eyewitness says the shooter was pinned to the ground and getting beaten when he shot his attacker."
Bullshit, we do know how it was started. Zimmerman approached Trayvon in an aggressive manner (after being told NOT TO BY POLICE) because he was black. Not to mention, Zimmerman weighed 100 lbs. more than Trayvon. I find this version of events highly unlikely.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 09:24 PM

A kid in America is dead and shot for no reason and the authorities are letting the guy who did it walk away free.

We have 100 other threads talking about the war in Afghanistan. I don't think there is a correlation here.

Yet, the president [Obama/Bush] has attended how many funerals?

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 09:29 PM

Bullshit, we do know how it was started. Zimmerman approached Trayvon in an aggressive manner (after being told NOT TO BY POLICE) because he was black. Not to mention, Zimmerman weighed 100 lbs. more than Trayvon. I find this version of events highly unlikely.

I'll ignore the race-baiting.

Do you know who threw the first punch? Do you know if either ever tried to walk away at any point? Who engaged in the first "fighting words" (note: rudeness and demanding to know why Trayvon is there is not necessarily 'fighting words')?

You don't know the answers to any of those.

Zimmerman did weigh maybe 100 lbs more than Trayvon. So you have a 5'9, morbidly obese waddler against a 6'1 or so high school football player who is 17. Older, fatter, shorter guy with a BMI of nearly 40 against a high school athlete. That's not a fair fight, and it's no wonder that Trayvon came out on top (literally, as in, on top of him and still swinging).

TheBlackPeterSchiff

03-23-2012, 09:33 PM

This is bullshit imagine if your just walking in your neighborhood and some idiot comes and attacks you then shoots you. Put this pieice of shit in jail. Fuck the liberals and race baiters that are using this for their own personal gain, justice is needed in this.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 09:34 PM

TheBlackPeterSchiff

03-23-2012, 09:38 PM

Where is the evidence that Zimmerman attacked anyone?

Go listen to the tapes, Zimmerman was obviously the aggressor? Where is the evidence that this kid was the aggressor? What weapon did this kid have? A knife, a gun, and bat, a big stick? Nothing! This is bullshit. I dont care if was a citizen or a cop, he killed a human being for no damn reason. Was he injured, was he being harmed? Where is the evidence of that?

This guy needs to be charged. This is very terrible tragedy regardless or race, sex or creed, this about human life and creation of a police state. A kid cant walk in his own neighborhood without being harassed. The kid's girlfriend who he was one phone with at the time said he was terrified of some stange guy following him? why didnt he just identifiy himself as the neighborhood watch?

Where is Travon's right to life and liberty?

Ender

03-23-2012, 09:40 PM

Where is the evidence that Zimmerman attacked anyone?

I think there is plenty of evidence that Zimmerman stalked the kid.

He was on his phone with his girlfriend talking about it- then wham.

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 09:40 PM

An example of a public statement you think it would be prudent for Ron to make on the matter.Great question. As I see it, the mass protests surrounding the issue are a great example of how liberty and the God given rights of free expression, petitioning the government, and peaceable assembly have allowed concerned people to apply pressure to government. Perhaps Dr. Paul can comment on how as President, he would defend these rights and would not allow those who organize and protest to be labelled terrorist and subject to assassination. He could also point out that the mainstream policies of Republicans and Democrats are leading to an environment where a racist President could do such things as is done in so many other countries with US support.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 09:41 PM

Was he injured, was he being harmed? Where is the evidence of that?

Where is the evidence Zimmerman was being harmed? Are you serious? There is only one eyewitness, and the center of his account is that Trayvon had pinned Zimmerman down and was punching him. The eyewitness yelled for Trayvon to stop beating him, and Trayvon didn't stop. So the witness called 911.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.
"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1q0CP0APS

Zimmerman was the one screaming for help in the background of the 911 call. Within a day of the incident, police had played the 911 tape for Trayvon's father, and Trayvon's father confirmed the screaming was NOT his son's voice. All this is in the reports.

But politically-useful narrative overrules fact, so all the news discussions involve plenty of things EXCEPT the ONE eyewitness we have.

Anti Federalist

03-23-2012, 09:42 PM

No, 5 should be "shooter and shootee get into a physical confrontation and we don't know how it started. An eyewitness says the shooter was pinned to the ground and getting beaten when he shot his attacker."

Unless I'm missing something here, long before there was any confrontation of any kind, he (Zimmerman) was on the phone with 911 dispatch describing the kid's appearance and actions.

When it became clear that Zimmerman was following this kid, the dispatcher told him not to, to "stand down" for all intents and purposes.

There is no legal justification for use of deadly force when you go looking for an altercation.

Until recently in fact, you were, in many jurisdictions, required to attempt to flee before using deadly force.

"Stand your ground" and "Castle Doctrine" laws still would not justify what appears to have happened here, regardless of what happened after the fact.

If someone was stalking around behind me and calling the cops reporting on me, he'd get punch in the face as well.

Ender

03-23-2012, 09:44 PM

Unless I'm missing something here, long before there was any confrontation of any kind, he (Zimmerman) was on the phone with 911 dispatch describing the kid's appearance and actions.

When it became clear that Zimmerman was following this kid, the dispatcher told him not to, to "stand down" for all intents and purposes.

There is no legal justification for use of deadly force when you go looking for an altercation.

Until recently in fact, you were, in many jurisdictions, required to attempt to flee before using deadly force.

"Stand your ground" and "Castle Doctrine" laws still would not justify what appears to have happened here, regardless of what happened after the fact.

If someone was stalking around behind me and calling the cops reporting on me, he'd get punch in the face as well.

1000%

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

03-23-2012, 09:46 PM

But here's how the law could/should be clarified.

1) Initiating a disturbance negates the self defense presumption.

I'm fairly certain that's how it is anyway, although I don't have a law I can quote. If someone commits a homicide after escalating a situation, I presume they will face charges in FL.

As far as your other suggestion about disproportionate force, I disagree. When attacked or even sufficiently threatened, I don't think I should have to estimate what injuries I'll sustain and then decide whether to fistfight, grab mace, grab a knife, or a gun. My first choice is an exit. But if that isn't realistic, I should be able to protect myself from bodily injury by whatever means I have. For example, there's another story in FL where a 14 year old kid raped and beat a woman so badly, she'll need reconstructive surgery. I don't see how she should have had a burden to predict what her injuries would be.

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 09:47 PM

Great question. As I see it, the mass protests surrounding the issue are a great example of how liberty and the God given rights of free expression, petitioning the government, and peaceably assemble have allowed concerned people to apply pressure to government. Perhaps Dr. Paul can comment on how as President, he would defend these rights and would not allow those who organize and protest to be labelled terrorist and subject to assassination. He could also point out that the mainstream policies of Republicans and Democrats are leading to an environment where a racist President could do such things as is done in so many other countries with US support.

I can get with that. Ron has made statements, throughout his public life, on the disproportionate racial impact of many unjust laws (e.g., "the war on drugs" and "the war on poverty").

cstarace

03-23-2012, 09:48 PM

I'll ignore the race-baiting.

Do you know who threw the first punch? Do you know if either ever tried to walk away at any point? Who engaged in the first "fighting words" (note: rudeness and demanding to know why Trayvon is there is not necessarily 'fighting words')?

You don't know the answers to any of those.

Zimmerman did weigh maybe 100 lbs more than Trayvon. So you have a 5'9, morbidly obese waddler against a 6'1 or so high school football player who is 17. Older, fatter, shorter guy with a BMI of nearly 40 against a high school athlete. That's not a fair fight, and it's no wonder that Trayvon came out on top (literally, as in, on top of him and still swinging).
You probably shouldn't ignore the race-baiting, since Zimmerman called Trayvon a "fucking coon" on the 911 call. To ignore this fact would be incredibly irrational.

Here's what we know for sure:

Zimmerman is a racist.
Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator and chased after Trayvon even after he was instructed not to.
Zimmerman had appointed himself as the Neighborhood Watch Vigilante and called 911 fourty-six times, prompting his neighbors to complain about him.
You cite one eyewitness that backs up Zimmerman; there are numerous others who dispute this and have said it was Trayvon who was yelling for help, not Zimmerman.
Trayvon was completely unarmed.

Where's your case?

Anti Federalist

03-23-2012, 09:50 PM

Great question. As I see it, the mass protests surrounding the issue are a great example of how liberty and the God given rights of free expression, petitioning the government, and peaceable assembly have allowed concerned people to apply pressure to government. Perhaps Dr. Paul can comment on how as President, he would defend these rights and would not allow those who organize and protest to be labelled terrorist and subject to assassination. He could also point out that the mainstream policies of Republicans and Democrats are leading to an environment where a racist President could do such things as is done in so many other countries with US support.

Salvo for the new member.

+rep

BamaAla

03-23-2012, 09:57 PM

How do you claim self defense when you get out of your car and then chase down an unarmed man while you are packing heat?

This story stinks to the core.

The possible answers to this question are too many to count.

I'll stick beside my original reluctance to call for the guy's head. Police are quick to arrest in situations like this; if you follow any gun forums, you'll see people getting arrested often after a clean shoot (even if they are never charged.) District attorneys love to prosecute when there is even a marginal chance of victory in the form of a conviction or plea. Neither of those things happened here which leads me to believe that there may be some heavy mitigating circumstances.

With that said, I'm sure the guy will be hanged guilty or not now.

GreenBulldog

03-23-2012, 09:58 PM

A person I talked to about government being too big and should follow the constitution used this story to justify government.

I guess some people want a police state...or think that government will be benevolent protector.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 10:02 PM

You probably shouldn't ignore the race-baiting, since Zimmerman called Trayvon a "fucking coon" on the 911 call. To ignore this fact would be incredibly irrational.

Here's what we know for sure:
Zimmerman is a racist.
Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator and chased after Trayvon even after he was instructed not to.
Zimmerman had appointed himself as the Neighborhood Watch Vigilante and called 911 fourty-six times, prompting his neighbors to complain about him.
You cite one eyewitness that backs up Zimmerman; there are numerous others who dispute this and have said it was Trayvon who was yelling for help, not Zimmerman.
Trayvon was completely unarmed.

Where's your case?

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZERsNpe9Hc The guy who made the video thinks he said it, but his own audio shows no such thing.

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 10:04 PM

Salvo for the new member.

+repIf Dr. Paul wanted to be really provactive, he can talk about the Federal governments persecution of the Black Panther Party and the assassination of Black Panther members. He could state that he would defend the God given rights of all to bear arms and monitor police, and practice self defense against police brutality.

cstarace

03-23-2012, 10:12 PM

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.
You're out of your mind if you think that sounds anything even remotely close to "punks". It is not even debatable.

SKIP TO 2:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vNI5CA5jijw#t=159s

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.
According to one witness who has been contradicted by numerous other witnesses. The only other person to back up that story was the responding police officer who didn't find the situation dire enough to warrant any sort of questioning towards Zimmerman. Sounds legit!

Voluntary Man

03-23-2012, 10:13 PM

The possible answers to this question are too many to count.

I'll stick beside my original reluctance to call for the guy's head. Police are quick to arrest in situations like this; if you follow any gun forums, you'll see people getting arrested often after a clean shoot (even if they are never charged.) District attorneys love to prosecute when there is even a marginal chance of victory in the form of a conviction or plea. Neither of those things happened here which leads me to believe that there may be some heavy mitigating circumstances.

With that said, I'm sure the guy will be hanged guilty or not now.

It's looking more and more certain. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 10:14 PM

According to one witness who has been contradicted by numerous other witnesses. The only other person to back up that story was the responding police officer who didn't find the situation dire enough to warrant any sort of questioning towards Zimmerman. Sounds legit!

Who are the other witnesses? Name names. Link links. Be specific.

There is NOBODY else but the guy I quoted who actually saw what happened. There are lots of people who heard shots or had other input, but only ONE person has said he saw the melee.

I believe the only witness we have who is not the shooter. And for that, I am reviled.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 10:15 PM

Zimmerman did not say coons. He said punks. There is a hard K sound right before the s. And it absolutely blows my mind the distortions that people's minds will make to conform events to their preconceived notions.

Trayvon was NOT unarmed. He had two arms. And he was swinging them both wildly on the head of a man he had pinned down. That's a lethal threat, and you're a fool if you wouldn't shoot in that situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZERsNpe9Hc The guy who made the video thinks he said it, but his own audio shows no such thing.

You only gave one witness against a dozen others whose facts supports Martin. I totally believe that Zimmerman lied about self-defense, and i would ask you, if Trayvon shot Zimmerman and had one witness calling it self-defense, would you change your answer? Besides, Zimmerman was ordered not to follow Trayvon and how can he call 911 when he is pinned down? I don't like giving neg rep, but this is getting ridiculous with all the evidence up front.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 10:16 PM

Who are the other witnesses? Name names. Link links. Be specific.

There is NOBODY else but the guy I quoted who actually saw what happened. There are lots of people who heard shots or had other input, but only ONE person has said he saw the melee.

I believe the only witness we have who is not the shooter. And for that, I am reviled.

The girlfriend was on the phone will Trayvon and how can he be fighting, if he is on the phone then being shot?

BamaAla

03-23-2012, 10:23 PM

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 10:28 PM

You only gave one witness against a dozen others whose facts supports Martin. I totally believe that Zimmerman lied about self-defense, and i would ask you, if Trayvon shot Zimmerman and had one witness calling it self-defense, would you change your answer? Besides, Zimmerman was ordered not to follow Trayvon and how can he call 911 when he is pinned down? I don't like giving neg rep, but this is getting ridiculous with all the evidence up front.

Bring on the negative reputation.

You have obviously not read anything on this at all. The girl was on the phone with Trayvon up until he and Zimmerman got it on. Trayvon's earpiece fell out and the line went dead. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

The fact that he was on an earpiece when the confrontation started doesn't mean anything about who started the fight, who threw the first punch, etc. The girlfriend didn't see anything. She also didn't hear anything, except exactly what we'd expect - Zimmerman demanding to know why Trayvon was there, what he was up to, etc. She didn't hear anything substantial, or see anything at all. And her word is obviously less reliable than a witness that is unrelated to either shooter or victim.

Secondly, I never said Zimmerman called 911 while he was pinned down. The witness in the story I linked said that he, the witness, called 911 after he saw and heard Zimmerman getting punched and yelling for help.

Again I say - I believe the testimony of the only witness to the act. And that makes me nuts to y'all.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 10:31 PM

Bring on the negative reputation.

You have obviously not read anything on this at all. The girl was on the phone with Trayvon up until he and Zimmerman got it on. Trayvon's earpiece fell out and the line went dead. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

The fact that he was on an earpiece when the confrontation started doesn't mean anything about who started the fight, who threw the first punch, etc.

Secondly, I never said Zimmerman called 911 while he was pinned down. The witness in the story I linked said that he, the witness, called 911 after he saw and heard Zimmerman getting punched and yelling for help.

Is the witness reliable? There was complaints of black bias before Zimmerman was shot and why did the police chief all of the sudden resigned? Does he have anything to hide?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/before-unarmed-black-teen-was-shot-fla-citys-blacks-complained-of-bias-in-police-department/2012/03/23/gIQAs5hoWS_story.html?tid=pm_national_pop

Anti Federalist

03-23-2012, 10:34 PM

It's looking more and more certain. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

I don't recall this level of uproar when that cop executed Oscar Grant.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

And the racial circus that is now surrounding this case, (God help me I listened to an hour of Sean Shamity on this issue, I'm still boxing my ears to get the thrum of bullshit out of them) will now render any sort of action or justice here meaningless.

I think you gave good advice...

http://oi47.tinypic.com/30cmw5d.jpg

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 10:41 PM

Is the witness reliable? There was complaints of black bias before Zimmerman was shot and why did the police chief all of the sudden resigned? Does he have anything to hide?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...m_national_pop

There are lots of reasons that the chief and prosecutor may have resigned, and I don't have any idea which one of those might be true. I'm not sure why that is relevant to the reliability of the witness.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

Yeah, it couldn't be that....ummm....the facts are in Zimmerman's favor based on the physical evidence of his bruising and grass-stained coat, along with a direct eyewitness.

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 10:46 PM

I don't recall this level of uproar when that cop executed Oscar Grant.

The only reason I can see so far that got Zimmerman off the hook was the fact that he was some kind of "pseudo" or "semi" or "lite" cop.

And the racial circus that is now surrounding this case, (God help me I listened to an hour of Sean Shamity on this issue, I'm still boxing my ears to get the thrum of bullshit out of them) will now render any sort of action or justice here meaningless.

I think you gave good advice...

http://oi47.tinypic.com/30cmw5d.jpgWe did have lively protests out here in California for Oscar Grant. Occupy Oakland also renamed the public plaza they began their encampment in "Oscar Grant Plaza". I think national coverage was not as significant though.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 10:48 PM

There are lots of reasons that the chief and prosecutor may have resigned, and I don't have any idea which one of those might be true. I'm not sure why that is relevant to the reliability of the witness.

Yeah, it couldn't be that....ummm....the facts are in Zimmerman's favor based on the physical evidence of his bruising and grass-stained coat, along with a direct eyewitness.

How weird is it if the Chief just resigned after the media reported that Zimmerman would not be arrested? Maybe a ghost told him to resign and why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 10:56 PM

How weird is it if the Chief just resigned after the media reported that Zimmerman would not be arrested? Maybe a ghost told him to resign and why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

Do you see how hard you're straining to make this case not be what the physical evidence and eyewitness say it is?

Among other reasons they could have resigned: political threats from allies who don't want to be allied with their tarnished name any more, threats from angry protestors, a sense of 'this circus ain't what I signed up for,' or actual misconduct they don't want found out, or they are worried about civil liability or other personal lawsuit problems, scary feds from federal commissions and 3-letter agencies approaching them with demands and threats and such.

It really could be anything.

why didn't the witness come out earlier and just did it when its all over the national media for at least a couple weeks? That is his only witness, which I bet every case has witnesses, but one does not make it reliable.

The main (or rather, only) witness that exists and that I've been quoting gave his statement and it was published in the press the day after the shooting, long before this turned into a national story or anything more than a local matter.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That's the story: "Published 27 Feb 2012."

Anti Federalist

03-23-2012, 11:09 PM

We did have lively protests out here in California for Oscar Grant. Occupy Oakland also renamed the public plaza they began their encampment in "Oscar Grant Plaza". I think national coverage was not as significant though.

I followed that whole story pretty closely and out on the East Coast there was hardly any news of it at all.

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 11:14 PM

Where is the evidence Zimmerman was being harmed? Are you serious? There is only one eyewitness, and the center of his account is that Trayvon had pinned Zimmerman down and was punching him. The eyewitness yelled for Trayvon to stop beating him, and Trayvon didn't stop. So the witness called 911.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Zimmerman was the one screaming for help in the background of the 911 call. Within a day of the incident, police had played the 911 tape for Trayvon's father, and Trayvon's father confirmed the screaming was NOT his son's voice. All this is in the reports.

But politically-useful narrative overrules fact, so all the news discussions involve plenty of things EXCEPT the ONE eyewitness we have.Your above statement about Trayvon's father is contradicted by the CNN story you linked to:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump/4?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Please have mercy on Trayvon and his family, and try to see that Trayvon is dead because George Zimmerman followed Trayvon against instruction and provoked Trayvon to escalate the situation and try to defend himself.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 11:23 PM

Do you see how hard you're straining to make this case not be what the physical evidence and eyewitness say it is?

Among other reasons they could have resigned: political threats from allies who don't want to be allied with their tarnished name any more, threats from angry protestors, a sense of 'this circus ain't what I signed up for,' or actual misconduct they don't want found out, or they are worried about civil liability or other personal lawsuit problems, scary feds from federal commissions and 3-letter agencies approaching them with demands and threats and such.

It really could be anything.

The main (or rather, only) witness that exists and that I've been quoting gave his statement and it was published in the press the day after the shooting, long before this turned into a national story or anything more than a local matter.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

That's the story: "Published 27 Feb 2012."

The story is updated, so there is no real telling what was in the original article, but anyways, this article from the LA Times said Zimmerman reported the boy running and he was CHASING him, which I can see self-defense for the 17 year old and Zimmerman was told NOT to chase the boy!

(http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story)

rag-time4

03-23-2012, 11:33 PM

I followed that whole story pretty closely and out on the East Coast there was hardly any news of it at all.What do you make of the national outcry regarding the Trayvon Martin case? Personally I think people all across America are getting more vocal... not just Ron Paul supporters! I think that part of it is good. The national press coverage, Im more mixed on.

In general, I think its also healthy that a racial justice case can get so much coverage. However, many who bring it up may be motivated more by their anti-gun views and belief in big central government than a serious concern for black life.

smhbbag

03-23-2012, 11:37 PM

Your above statement about Trayvon's father is contradicted by the CNN story you linked to:

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/j...?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Please have mercy on Trayvon and his family, and try to see that Trayvon is dead because George Zimmerman followed Trayvon against instruction and provoked Trayvon to escalate the situation and try to defend himself.

I think Zimmerman is a moron who made a number of stupid decisions. Even if he's not a moron in general, which he appears to be, he still made a number of stupid decisions.

If he felt the guy was a threat or a menace, why confront him? Confronting him, by its nature, implies that you're not terribly scared of him. Rationally, you would continue to observe, maintain an exit strategy, and wait for cops.

I think you do a good job of really cross examining the narrative and trying to figure out the details of the fight... but remember that Trayvon felt that he was being followed so even if he did start the physical altercation, he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman was also instructed not to follow Trayvon, but he ignored the instructions.

Thank you for being even-handed and reasonable.

I disagree with the middle sentence. If Trayvon felt wary of Zimmerman, as I'm sure he did, then I certainly understand him not being kind or cooperative with Zimmerman. And that's probably the right thing for him to do.

But the problem is that one of them tipped the balance to make it physical. One of them began the escalation from confronting to fighting. We will never know who that was. There is no way to know. If we could know that Zimmerman began the physical aspect either through a thrown punch or simple 'fighting words,' then he should fry. If not, or if we can never know, then he should remain free. We can never know. Therefore, he should stay free. All we do know is that we do have an eyewitness who painted a picture, in a statement on the day of the killing, that Zimmerman was in a very rough spot and getting beaten.

I'm particularly perturbed at the white-washing done on Trayvon. Everybody knows Zimmerman's sketchiness. It's widely reported, from his previous arrest(s), to his love of calling 911, to his wannabe-cop stuff. Yet, Trayvon is presented as this baby-faced teeny-bopper who only wanted skittles and tea. Few know that he was only in that neighborhood because he had been suspended from school. We still don't know what for. He wasn't 12, like the media pictures show - he was a 17 year old, 6-foot football player.

And the CNN report doesn't conflict with what I said. Trayvon's father did say that the voice was not his son's. But that was right after the incident, and in the immediate report. Now, of course, he says it was his son, because he has realized how disadvantageous to his case that statement was. Trayvon's father changed his story from the first police report to what he's saying now.

The story is updated, so there is no real telling what was in the original article, but anyways, this article from the LA Times said Zimmerman reported the boy running and he was CHASING him, which I can see self-defense for the 17 year old and Zimmerman was told NOT to chase the boy!

Have you listened to the entire 911 call from beginning to end? Get back to me when you have. Zimmerman stopped chasing the man (man, not boy). Zimmerman's story is that after Zimmerman ceased his trailing Trayvon, then Trayvon came back at him. That probably sounds like a load of crock to you. But that's probably because you haven't listened to the whole call from beginning to end.

Vanilluxe

03-23-2012, 11:51 PM

I think Zimmerman is a moron who made a number of stupid decisions. Even if he's not a moron in general, which he appears to be, he still made a number of stupid decisions.

If he felt the guy was a threat or a menace, why confront him? Confronting him, by its nature, implies that you're not terribly scared of him. Rationally, you would continue to observe, maintain an exit strategy, and wait for cops.

Thank you for being even-handed and reasonable.

I disagree with the middle sentence. If Trayvon felt wary of Zimmerman, as I'm sure he did, then I certainly understand him not being kind or cooperative with Zimmerman. And that's probably the right thing for him to do.

But the problem is that one of them tipped the balance to make it physical. One of them began the escalation from confronting to fighting. We will never know who that was. There is no way to know. If we could know that Zimmerman began the physical aspect either through a thrown punch or simple 'fighting words,' then he should fry. If not, or if we can never know, then he should remain free. We can never know. Therefore, he should stay free. All we do know is that we do have an eyewitness who painted a picture, in a statement on the day of the killing, that Zimmerman was in a very rough spot and getting beaten.

I'm particularly perturbed at the white-washing done on Trayvon. Everybody knows Zimmerman's sketchiness. It's widely reported, from his previous arrest(s), to his love of calling 911, to his wannabe-cop stuff. Yet, Trayvon is presented as this baby-faced teeny-bopper who only wanted skittles and tea. Few know that he was only in that neighborhood because he had been suspended from school. We still don't know what for. He wasn't 12, like the media pictures show - he was a 17 year old, 6-foot football player.

And the CNN report doesn't conflict with what I said. Trayvon's father did say that the voice was not his son's. But that was right after the incident, and in the immediate report. Now, of course, he says it was his son, because he has realized how disadvantageous to his case that statement was. Trayvon's father changed his story from the first police report to what he's saying now.

Have you listened to the entire 911 call from beginning to end? Get back to me when you have. Zimmerman stopped chasing the man (man, not boy). Zimmerman's story is that after Zimmerman ceased his trailing Trayvon, then Trayvon came back at him. That probably sounds like a load of crock to you. But that's probably because you haven't listened to the whole call from beginning to end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCO1Av5KarI&feature=related

The guy yelling sounded like Trayvon, I doubt Zimmerman has voice like that as a 28 year old. I don't know what you heard, but Trayvon was screaming, and I doubt zimmerman would scream if he was holding a gun all along.

smhbbag

03-24-2012, 12:03 AM

The guy yelling sounded like Trayvon, I doubt Zimmerman has voice like that as a 28 year old. I don't know what you heard, but Trayvon was screaming, and I doubt zimmerman would scream if he was holding a gun all along.

Note that even if you are right, the case against Zimmerman is not proven, nor even budged much that direction.

Secondly, we have a witness who gave a statement immediately following the incident, and he has told us what he saw and what he heard while he was seeing it.

So, naturally, we would disregard the actual witness in favor of our figuring about the nature of a recorded scream.

Vanilluxe

03-24-2012, 12:06 AM

Note that even if you are right, the case against Zimmerman is not proven, nor even budged much that direction.

Secondly, we have a witness who gave a statement immediately following the incident, and he has told us what he saw and what he heard while he was seeing it.

So, naturally, we would disregard the actual witness in favor of our figuring about the nature of a recorded scream.

Even if the self defense thing is not proven, Zimmerman should still be arrested and charged 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, not just let free to take another victim! There should be justice done for everyone!

smhbbag

03-24-2012, 12:09 AM

Even if the self defense thing is not proven, Zimmerman should still be arrested and charged 2nd degree murder or manslaughter, not just let free to take another victim! There should be justice done for everyone!

Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.

Vanilluxe

03-24-2012, 12:16 AM

Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.

I said charged, not "sentenced", under your logic of how people should go free means that anyone can murder someone else and make it look like self-defense which is ridiculous if they are not charged and tried under their peers of jury.

Vanilluxe

03-24-2012, 12:32 AM

Wait, what?

You want to throw away an eyewitness because you think you can divine the identity of a person behind a recorded scream, between two people you haven't met. I'm not sure if I should keep engaging this line of thought.

I also don't like the "we may never know" mentality when the police did not investigate one bit. This shows me that you do not really care.

smhbbag

03-24-2012, 12:41 AM

I also don't like the "we may never know" mentality when the police did not investigate one bit. This shows me that you do not really care

What should they have done to investigate more?

Vanilluxe

03-24-2012, 01:38 AM

What should they have done to investigate more?

The police should have brought inspectors and the local attorney should have looked into the case further and that does not matter now, since the state and the feds are sending investigators into this so "mysterious" case.

truelies

03-24-2012, 06:58 AM

I don't see how it's self defense when the teen wasn't armed.

All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.

Nothing to see here beyond the latest attempt by the MSM and the political left to disarm the Citizens. T. Martin is not the martyred saint the left is making him out to be.

A Son of Liberty

03-24-2012, 07:26 AM

He's a sick disgusting pig because he commented on a teenager that got shot in cold blood? What exactly is he supposed to say?

Did you not read my post, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Obama made a very solemn comment that this young man looked like the "son he never had", or something to that effect. It is pretty clear that this comment was meant to express a personal connection to this sad, terrible situation. All well fine and good... if it weren't for the fact that Barack Obama is personally responsible for the MURDER of untold numbers of little brown boys and girls in numerous countries around the world.

What exactly is he supposed to say? Are you fucking kidding me?

HE IS SUPPOSED TO GET DOWN ON HIS GOD DAMNED KNEES AND BEG FOR FORGIVENESS.

...not try to make some political hay out of tragedy which - surprisingly - he had no personal hand in.

William R

03-24-2012, 07:27 AM

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

A Son of Liberty

03-24-2012, 07:28 AM

I apologize for the vulgar language in my last post. It is not my typical practice... some things drive me to a rage, and I think in this instance, I'll leave the language in place, to illustrate my contempt.

tod evans

03-24-2012, 07:36 AM

And.................On the front page of Drudge this morning;

Blacks are under attack,

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story

Oh yeah.......Obama spoke out too..........Must be a genuine racial issue.

Fuckin' race baiters!

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 07:45 AM

All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.

Nothing to see here beyond the latest attempt by the MSM and the political left to disarm the Citizens. T. Martin is not the martyred saint the left is making him out to be.

It started with the Neighborhood Watch guy getting brutally beaten? So much so that he had a bloody nose and "some blood on the back of his scalp" and that is it? And why was he in a position to get beaten up? And... here's the kicker... if you were walking around at night through a neighborhood, and some dude was slowly following you in his car, then got out and confronted you, what precisely would you do? Why is the story that Zimmerman suddenly decided to wait for the police, but place himself in close proximity to what he seemed to think was a drug-crazed person up to no good, turning his back onto such a danger?

Do you understand how unlikely that sounds?

The police did not interview all of the witnesses (yes, someone who was speaking on the phone to the teen right before they were killed is a witness), did not run a toxicology report, and used the "Stand Your Ground" law to decide then and there that it was self-defense, precluding a jury trial.

You're okay with that? The police get to decide the merits of the case right there, and if they put their heads together and say it is self-defense, that whole "fair and speedy" trial is unnecessary?

I'm sure glad you're not around here. I go walking at night in a hoodie, and am not much smaller than this behemoth among men. Sometimes I even have one of those property line construction stakes with me.

pcosmar

03-24-2012, 07:54 AM

All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.

That would never have happened if the Buttinski had not followed the kid down the street and then got out of his vehicle (after being told NOT to by the 911 dispatch)
And confronted him. The watch Captain started the fight.

I am a firm believer in self defense (this was not self defense) and I believe in neighborhood watches.
But this guy was wrong, from start to finish.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:07 AM

Once again, what I think is getting lost here is the "Stand your Ground" law.

It allows Florida residents to use deadly force rather than retreat if they feel threatened, even if they are not at home.

That part is great. Previously, you were supposed to retreat if at all possible. You could get in trouble with the law for not doing so, even if in the olden days you would have been called a hero.

Stand Your Ground is a shield against prosecution only when the person who uses deadly force "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." If the cops doubted that Zimmerman was reasonable in believing that Martin was threatening him with death or great harm—or if they doubted his story altogether—then of course they could have arrested him.
Hmm. Gray area. Obviously Zimmerman felt he was in danger there at the end, so this is valid, but why was he in that situation at all?

there are at least four reasons to doubt what Zimmerman has to say. First, there is the tape of his own 911 call, on which he is agitated by Martin merely because the 17-year-old was walking through the gated community where Zimmerman lives, and then grumbles, "These assholes. They always get away." Second, this wasn’t Zimmerman’s first phone call like this. He has placed other 911 calls, 46 over 10 years, in which he reported black people for hanging out and children for playing in the street. Third, and most important, is the account of Martin’s girlfriend, who says he was talking to her on his cellphone in the moments before he died. She says Martin told her, "I think this dude is following me," thought he’d lost Zimmerman, and then said, "He is right behind me again. I'm not going to run, I'm going to walk fast." The girlfriend claims she next heard another voice say, “What are you doing around here?” to which Martin answered, “Why are you following me?" She then heard Martin get pushed and sounds as if his phone was hitting the ground.

Last, there’s just the sheer unlikelihood of a teenager afraid he was being followed, and trying to walk away fast, suddenly turning and pouncing on a much bigger man. (Zimmerman weighed 100 pounds more than Martin.)
So much for that "this kid was HUGE!" notion.

For all the cries of "he was acting in self-defense" in this thread, it's interesting that it's not being argued with equal volume that the teen, being followed at night and approached by someone demanding to know his business, was not acting in self-defense.

Zimmerman's attorney said his client was injured on the night of the killing.

"I believe that his nose was broken; he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head he sustained a cut that was serious enough, it probably should have had stitches," he said.

Sonner said the injuries "were from Trayvon Martin, I assume."

For being such a one-sided scuffle, with the brutish 170-pound football player tackling him, this guy got a broken nose and a cut that might have merited stitches, but didn't get them. The teen, however, is dead, and the best people can do is "I assume those injuries were caused by the teen and prompted Zimmerman to fire."

It's astounding how many defenders this guy, and this ridiculous aspect of the law, have.

moderate libertarian

03-24-2012, 08:47 AM

Newt unloads on Obama and he has a point:

Newt calls Obama's Trayvon Martin comments 'disgraceful'

By MAGGIE HABERMAN | 3/23/12 7:11 PM EDT
Per POLITICO's Ginger Gibson, Newt Gingrich accused President Obama of playing race:

Newt Gingrich called Obama's remarks about Trayvon Martin "disgraceful" in an interview with Sean Hannity, according to CBS/National Journal.

“It’s not a question of who that young man looked like. Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period. We should all be horrified no matter what the ethnic background," Gingrich said. "Is the President suggesting that if it had been a white who had been shot that would be ok because it didn’t look like him?"

http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/03/newt-calls-obamas-trayvon-martin-comments-disgraceful-118518.html

That is going to be a hard question for Obama to answer.

Next question would be, did this plant didn't say anything about any of the many children killed by remote control drone bombs because of their skin shade or facial geometry?

40oz

03-24-2012, 08:51 AM

Maybe it should have gone down like this...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555798_417978311550909_100000162303846_1870781_166 3269964_n.jpg

Noble Savage

03-24-2012, 08:55 AM

people are killing one another every night, left and right, young and old, black and white and the media rakes it in as they pimp the spin boom shakalaka boom

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 10:31 AM

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 10:33 AM

Yet, the president [Obama/Bush] has attended how many funerals?

How is this in any way relevant. Travyon Martin has NOTHING do with the war in Afghanistan. He was a 17 year old kid walking in a neighborhood in Florida.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 10:45 AM

All of the evidence indicates that the 'kid' (ignore the 5 -6 year out of date MSM pics-the youg male was over 6 foot and 170 pounds- a football player) started the altercation had the watch guy down & was beating him viciously. The shoot was righteous.

What??? Are you nuts? What "evidence" indicates that Travyon started the altercation.

Travyon was minding his own business when a 28 year old wannabe cop armed with a gun started chasing him. This is one of the most straightforward cases I have EVER seen! You have to be kidding me.

There is no evidence because the cops refused to investigate and instead let their guy Zimmerman walk.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 10:51 AM

Did you not read my post, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Obama made a very solemn comment that this young man looked like the "son he never had", or something to that effect. It is pretty clear that this comment was meant to express a personal connection to this sad, terrible situation. All well fine and good... if it weren't for the fact that Barack Obama is personally responsible for the MURDER of untold numbers of little brown boys and girls in numerous countries around the world.

What exactly is he supposed to say? Are you fucking kidding me?

HE IS SUPPOSED TO GET DOWN ON HIS GOD DAMNED KNEES AND BEG FOR FORGIVENESS.

...not try to make some political hay out of tragedy which - surprisingly - he had no personal hand in.

I apologize for the vulgar language in my last post. It is not my typical practice... some things drive me to a rage, and I think in this instance, I'll leave the language in place, to illustrate my contempt.

What exactly drove you into a rage? A thread about an unarmed kid who got mowed down in Florida - and you were driven into a rage because of the war in Afghanistan? The two are not related AT ALL.

There are 100 threads about the war in Afghanistan and you are free to comment in them. This is about a kid who got mowed down here in the USA. Travyon Martin has nothing do with war or Afghanistan or Iraq or WMD's.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 11:01 AM

Newt unloads on Obama and he has a point:

Newt never has a point.

“It’s not a question of who that young man looked like. Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period. We should all be horrified no matter what the ethnic background," Gingrich said. "Is the President suggesting that if it had been a white who had been shot that would be ok because it didn’t look like him?"

Really? Fucking really? You actually think this is a legitimate point? That Obama is saying it is "ok" for unarmed white kids in Florida to be mowed down? Anyone who is reading that into Obama's comments has a reading comprehension problem or is simply looking for a reason to be offended.

That is going to be a hard question for Obama to answer.

No it is an easy question to answer. The answer is: "Shooting unarmed kids for no reason other than they look suspicious is always wrong. duh. And it doesn't matter what race they are." And I'd follow that up with a "shut the fuck up Newt and get a real issue to talk about".

Next question would be, did this plant didn't say anything about any of the many children killed by remote control drone bombs because of their skin shade or facial geometry?

Holy crap get off of it. How many times is this going to be brought up in this thread?

What the hell does Travyon Martin have to do with a war in Aghanistan? Nothing! Look I get that there are wars going on that I, and most everyone on this forum opposes. But you don't need to bring it up and shove it in everyones face every 15 seconds.

Oh Trevyon Martin was shot? Oh well did you know there are kids in Afghanistan that got shot

Oh you like chocolate milk? Well kids in Afghanistan don't have chocolate milk because Obama drops drones on them and then drinks their blood.

I get it. I really do. I understand that there is a war going on. Just because there is one thread not about the war in Afghanistan doesn't mean anyone's forgotten about it ok?

r3volution

03-24-2012, 11:49 AM

What??? Are you nuts? What "evidence" indicates that Travyon started the altercation.

Travyon was minding his own business when a 28 year old wannabe cop armed with a gun started chasing him. This is one of the most straightforward cases I have EVER seen! You have to be kidding me.

There is no evidence because the cops refused to investigate and instead let their guy Zimmerman walk.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

r3volution

03-24-2012, 11:49 AM

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8665/trayvonmartin.jpg

JWZguy

03-24-2012, 11:51 AM

I'm sure Obama will make a retraction immediately.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 11:54 AM

What do you make of the national outcry regarding the Trayvon Martin case? Personally I think people all across America are getting more vocal... not just Ron Paul supporters! I think that part of it is good. The national press coverage, Im more mixed on.

In general, I think its also healthy that a racial justice case can get so much coverage. However, many who bring it up may be motivated more by their anti-gun views and belief in big central government than a serious concern for black life.

Honestly, once it became a "racial" case, the concept of any form of justice went sailing right out the window.

No matter what happens now, it will all be tainted with: "It only went down that way because he was *this color*!!!"

This was, in my mind, a logical extension of the increasing numbers of cops killing citizens on the slimmest of pretexts.

Wannabe cop figured he could do the same thing.

Race doesn't figure into this at all, cops are equal opportunity anymore, when it comes to lighting our asses up.

Just ask Nick Christie.

http://police4aqi.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nc.jpg

Oh yeah, that's right, you can't.

Because he's dead, tortured to death by FL cops.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 12:01 PM

OMG you mean he wears a hoodie AND he has gold teeth (that Zimmerman couldn't see while following him) AND he has flipped the bird at a camera?!?

Well that changes EVERYTHING!!! :rolleyes:

I see a scrawny kid who was outweighed by 100 pounds in this fight, not to mention his opponent had a car and a gun at his disposal. If you're trying to imply that this kiddo was up to the task, armed only with gold teeth and some Skittles, you really are out of your damned mind.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:02 PM

Thuggish looking young black kid is thuggish looking.

That still does not give anybody the right to follow someone around and kill them.

This killing will be used non stop as an anti gun and anti CCW propaganda tool.

The only way to to counter that is to be consistent.

Based on the facts presented, there is no justification for what Zimmerman did, either under "Stand Your Ground" or existing deadly force statutes.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8665/trayvonmartin.jpg

tod evans

03-24-2012, 12:04 PM

Just ask Nick Christie.

Oh yeah, that's right, you can't.

Because he's dead, tortured to death by FL cops.

Where are Jessie and Louis or even Obama for this guy?

Race baiters I say!

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:10 PM

Where are Jessie and Louis or even Obama for this guy?

Race baiters I say!

Nowhere to be seen.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 12:10 PM

Oh and very cute how they used the word "stalking" on a rainy night. Yes, walking to the store is suspicious activity. I've had people I know get stopped by the cops and given the "papers please" treatment for it. No need to try to make it seem like this was some imposing, threatening dude powering his way down the street like he owned the place.

No kidding they are not using a blurry self-pic of a kid flipping people off on tee shirts.

I am sure there are some pretty bad photos out there of the shooter, too, and they are equally as irrelevant.

Voluntary Man

03-24-2012, 12:12 PM

How is this in any way relevant. Travyon Martin has NOTHING do with the war in Afghanistan. He was a 17 year old kid walking in a neighborhood in Florida.

(a) The Secretary concerned may accept original enlistments in the Regular Army, Regular Navy, Regular Air Force, Regular Marine Corps, or Regular Coast Guard, as the case may be, of qualified, effective, and able-bodied persons who are not less than seventeen years of age nor more than forty-two years of age.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/505

You're right. I'm wrong. I'm sure you would be devoting the exact same amount of attention and passion to this case if the races were reversed, and your position wouldn't shift even the slightest, because YOU are not a racist, not even a little bit. See, the problem here that other people have with this case -- not YOU, of course -- is that this case has become too racially charged for other people -- not YOU -- to maintain their objectivity. So, you continue to be right, and I'll just be wrong, because I suggested that the president should be just as concerned about the 17 year old American kids whose lives are directly in his hands. But, what the hell do I know? Nothing, apparently. You're right.

It's looking more and more certain [that Zimmerman will be lynched]. I usually give "civilians" the benefit of the doubt, in such cases -- whereas I hold police to a higher standard of accountability, especially since, as a group (oh no! was that collectivist?), they are next to never prosecuted for even the most egregious abuses.

That said, I was one of the last holdouts during the OJ arrest and trial. I refused to render an opinion on the case, until after it was concluded. As a rule, once a "case" has become as racially polarized as this one is becoming, I just walk away.

This is me walking away....

tod evans

03-24-2012, 12:13 PM

Nowhere to be seen.

Guess you ought to find a Pollack, Irishman, Chinaman and an Eskimo who have suffered at the hands of the Fla. cops or you too will be in the cross-hairs for no diversity. [ sarcasm! ]

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 12:13 PM

Nowhere to be seen.

This'll get your older-RPFer conspiracy radar going.

I was having a discussion with someone about this last night, bringing them up to speed on the case. Here comes what's likely a long, hot summer. There's a big political race. People are already pissed about the economy and other crap (but in misguided ways). People get killed and maimed regularly.

But where did this kid get killed?

Less than two hours from Tampa where the GOP Convention is going to be :eek:

mmkay proceed.

r3volution

03-24-2012, 12:14 PM

did any1 bother to read the news link i posted ?

thoughtomator

03-24-2012, 12:14 PM

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:15 PM

Where are Jessie and Louis or even Obama for this guy?

Race baiters I say!

You won't hear them on this either:

On Wednesday night a New Orleans police officer shot and killed an unarmed 20-year-old man, Wendell Allen, during a pot raid. Police, who had a search warrant, say they recovered about five ounces of marijuana, bags, digital scales, and a handgun from the house. They arrested two men for possession with intent to distribute. Allen, a former high school basketball star who was given a five-year suspended sentence for that offense last year, escaped charges this time around, what with being dead and all. The New Orleans Police Department is investigating why Officer Josh Colclough shot Allen,

http://reason.com/blog/2012/03/09/new-orleans-police-kill-unarmed-man-duri

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:16 PM

cartemj06

03-24-2012, 12:20 PM

Jesus Christ, I tried to be civil about this last night when I posted in here and it seems that it only added to the shit storm. Why does everyone all the sudden get stupid about this case?

1) Zimmerman looks more hispanic than white
2) Trayvon was not a a cute little angel kid
3) Zimmerman is a wanna be cop
4) Trayvon was Suspended from school and thus in a different neighborhood than his home on that night.
5) Wanna be cop Zimmerman sees thuggish looking kid in hoodie on rainy night
6) Zimmerman calls police tells them he is following kid
7)Police dispatch tells him no to follow kid
8) he follows kid
9) at some point zimmerman exits his vehicle
9a) Did trayvon approach the car?
9b) did Zimmerman exit car to approach Trayvon?
10) Zimmerman is out of his car at this point, there is an assault...
10a) Did Zimmerman approach Trayvon all billy bad ass and get whooped?
10b) Did Zimmerman approach Trayvon politely and get a wrath of shit?
10c) Did Trayvon approach the car and cuss out the guy following him?
11) One witness sees a scuffle Trayvon is on top of zimmerman, continuing to punch him
11a) Trayvon is no longer acting in self defense
12) Witness breaks eye contact from scuffle to make phone call
12a) You can hear Zimmerman yelling for help in the background
13) A shot is fired
13a) was the shot fired while Trayvon was on top of zimmerman?
13b) did trayvon stop hitting him and then zimmerman shoots?

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:29 PM

This'll get your older-RPFer conspiracy radar going.

I was having a discussion with someone about this last night, bringing them up to speed on the case. Here comes what's likely a long, hot summer. There's a big political race. People are already pissed about the economy and other crap (but in misguided ways). People get killed and maimed regularly.

But where did this kid get killed?

Less than two hours from Tampa where the GOP Convention is going to be :eek:

mmkay proceed.

Roger that.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 12:29 PM

more info has come out on this story... looks like another one of those stories where the truth is exactly the opposite of the media spin

Apparently the guy who shot Martin was violently assaulted and bloodied by the deceased, which is apparently confirmed by both an independent witness and 911 recordings.

Um, no. Violently assaulted? WTF? Yeah and before he was violently assaulted, the poor victim called 9-1-1 just to vent about how terrible it is that those hoodie-wearing druggie thugs always get away. And followed the kid around. Because he was a total victim. Then he got out of the car. Because ... well I can't even think of why you'd do that. Then even though he had already decided this kid was dangerous, he turned his back on him.

* * *

And I didn't have to read the story because this is the same station reporting on it locally. They said the witness saw everything, even though it seems rather ***** that the story begins with the "fight" and not with the following around, so no, that's not "everything."

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Odd... seems like he didn't actually see the most critical part of the fight.

* * *

Those of you trying to paint this teen as a "thug" are seriously no better than the people attempting to paint him as a pure and innocent martyr. If we're just going to speculate, here's another one to add to the pile:

This "thuggish" teen is walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend on his cellphone. He may be "strutting" or otherwise not walking in a "normal" fashion; who knows? His pockets were likely bulging, as he had a tea and some candy. He was seen by Zimmerman, who seems to have a rather long history of calling 9-1-1 upon seeing dark-skinned folks walking through his neighborhood. Whether he was frustrated that those prior calls didn't pan out, or he just took in the scene in general and decided his Spidey sense was tingling, we don't know. He did dial 9-1-1, and went on his little venting speech about the person he was following. He assumed it was a drug dealer, and was vulgar on the recording. In the meantime, the teen has told his girlfriend someone is watching him and it's creepy, and he's going to walk faster. We can only assume he starts walking faster, at which point (this is where the big speculation starts) I am guessing Zimmerman thought that this kid was going to get away like the "others" he talks about on the 9-1-1 recording.

Given that Zimmerman had 100 pounds on the teen, and a gun, he probably figured it was going to be quick work and he'd be a hero (cop wannabe is already a label that's all over the news). Again, speculation, but I see it as possible that Zimmerman grabs the kid's hoodie and pulls him back to keep him from escaping. This might have been accompanied by some choice words, if Zimmerman's attitude on the 9-1-1 call is any indicator. Now, MAYBE he turned around with a "you stay right there; I'm on the phone with the cops" and he turned back towards his vehicle. That seems rather unlikely given that he thought the teen was such a danger. It sounds much more like an attempt to separate the actions, which would lend more credence to a self-defense claim. What I find more likely is that a kid who was already being followed, and possibly got called a name, decided that some fat jerk was not going to get away with that, and socked him in the nose. Zimmerman's nose was broken. With that kind of injury it's very likely they did go down and start fighting. What they haven't really released, or at least the news has not mentioned, is how far apart they were when the gun actually went off. Were they struggling on the ground? Did the teen get up and run away? Did he get up and gloatingly stand there?

The "violent assault" included a bloody nose, a little blood on the back of the head, and a cut. All of those injuries would be explained by the purely speculative account above, yet it would be easy to wedge the eye witness account in there. He did not appear to see the shooting. He saw the two fighting, then in a little bit he saw a corpse.

If the cops showed up and decided not to arrest the person who followed, fought with, then shot your child, you'd probably be a little mad, too.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:46 PM

Now it's becoming a three ring circus:

Trayvon Martin: New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of shooter George Zimmerman

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324_1_black-men-justice-new-black-panthers

2:17 p.m. EST, March 24, 2012|By Arelis R. Hernandez, Orlando Sentinel

SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford today.

When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 5,000 black men to capture George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin last month.

Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland and Jacksonville -- where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. But he declined to say when they will begin their hunt.

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C. is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

The party said they would not release the names of donors nor would they provide documentation to support the existence of donations.

The New Black Panthers announced the reward at a protest in Sanford Saturday, the activist group's third protest in the past two weeks over the fatal shooting of the Miami Gardens teen.

The group called for Zimmerman's arrest and threatened to find and detain him if police were not willing to do so. But group members didn't call for the mobilization of thousands until Saturday.

Muhammed led the group in chanting "Justice for Trayvon!" and "Black Power!"

"If the government won't do the job, we'll do it," Muhammad said, leading his group of eight party members in chants like "freedom or death" and "justice for Trayvon" while making the iconic gesture of raising their fists into the air.

The party members said they are tired of the inaction of government officials — from Sanford city officials up to the Governor, accusing them of lying and delaying justice.

They accused newly-appointed special prosecutor Angela Corley of being an enemy of the black community.

"She has a track record of sending innocent young black men and women to prison," he said.

Sanford police arrived toward the end of the demonstration Saturday asking onlookers and media to avoid walking into the street in front of The Retreat at Twin Lakes where Trayvon was killed.

As the officer walked back to his cruiser, Muhammad berated and pointed angrily at him saying "If you'd had shown this much concern, Trayvon may still be alive today."

AFPVet

03-24-2012, 12:47 PM

Oh great... that's all we need... a freaking race war.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 12:48 PM

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 12:51 PM

Oh great... that's all we need... a freaking race war.

That's pretty much what I thought as well.

Now, everybody needs to watch this closely.

Just consider how swiftly a bunch of OathKeepers or Michigan Militia men would have been arrested had they said something like this.

If the NBPP skates on this, then we can be reasonably sure that somebody within government is stoking the fires, and the whole stinking mess becomes suspect.

There will be no justice here.

tod evans

03-24-2012, 12:53 PM

New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of shooter George Zimmerman

Wonder how this is going to turn out?..........................Idiots!

tod evans

03-24-2012, 12:56 PM

Yep, AF, and nothing will change about the part that allows the police on the scene to decide that, if they "believe" the story, there's no need to arrest.

Cops decide who gets charged and who goes free......no need for juries just slap a badge on a looser and turn 'em loose.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:01 PM

Yep, AF, and nothing will change about the part that allows the police on the scene to decide that, if they "believe" the story, there's no need to arrest.

In the meantime, everyone sees a payday coming :(

I can't say as I'm in favor of cops arresting even more people, especially these days, when just an arrest record, never mind a conviction or acquittal, is enough to get your name into The Matrix and ruin your life.

On that score I'd just as soon see 100 guilty go free.

But in this case, it certainly seems that there was enough question about what happened to warrant an arrest and forwarding to the prosecutor or grand jury to try and find out what happened.

donnay

03-24-2012, 01:04 PM

Oh great... that's all we need... a freaking race war.

That seems to be the direction of where they are heading with this. I was listening on and off to the talking heads, in the last couple of nights, the narrative is being set, all the usual suspects are out demagoguing-- Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Even Obama is playing the crowd on this one. Obama: 'If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon'

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 01:10 PM

I can't say as I'm in favor of cops arresting even more people, especially these days, when just an arrest record, never mind a conviction or acquittal, is enough to get your name into The Matrix and ruin your life.

On that score I'd just as soon see 100 guilty go free.

But in this case, it certainly seems that there was enough question about what happened to warrant an arrest and forwarding to the prosecutor or grand jury to try and find out what happened.

I agree with you in the general theory, however in these sorts of cases it is just up to how much cop butt you kiss. I wonder if our hero told the police how much he wanted to be a cop. I wonder if he tossed out a few sly reasons. I wonder if that's why they nodded and said "nothing to see here."

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 01:15 PM

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8665/trayvonmartin.jpg

Does that image really label a hoodie "a disguise"? Really?

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 01:23 PM

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/7728618/miami-heat-don-hoodies-response-death-teen-trayvon-martin

MIAMI -- Dwyane Wade and LeBron James were only a few miles away from Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26, participating in the NBA All-Star Game on the night the unarmed black teenager wearing a hooded sweatshirt was shot to death by a neighborhood crime-watch volunteer.

They never knew the teenager, but on Friday they decided it was time to speak out.

Wade posted a photo of himself from a previous photo shoot wearing a hooded sweatshirt, otherwise known as a hoodie, to his Twitter and Facebook pages on Friday morning.

A couple hours later, James posted another photo -- this one of the Heat team, all wearing hoodies, their heads bowed, their hands stuffed into their pockets.

The photo was taken at the team hotel, and Heat coach Erik Spoelstra called it "a powerful move."

Among the hashtags James linked to the photo: "WeWantJustice."

"As a father, this hits home," said Wade, who has 10- and 4-year-old sons....

James told confidants that when Wade's girlfriend, Gabrielle Union, called Wade's and James' attention to the issue, the two NBA stars spent several days talking about the case, gathering information and deciding how to make a statement.

According to his confidants, James and Wade decided a team-wide message would make a stronger statement and organized the photo taken at the team's hotel in Detroit. Mike Miller, the team's only white player, was not in the photo because he was not with the team on its road trip because of injury.

"This situation hit home for me because last Christmas, all my oldest son wanted as a gift was hoodies," Wade told The Associated Press Friday from Auburn Hills, Mich., where the Heat were to play the Detroit Pistons. "So when I heard about this a week ago, I thought of my sons. I'm speaking up because I feel it's necessary that we get past the stereotype of young, black men and especially with our youth."

Several Heat players, including Wade and James, took the floor Friday night with messages such as "RIP Trayvon Martin" and "We want justice" scrawled on their sneakers.

"I couldn't imagine if my son went to a store just to get some Skittles and a pop or iced tea and they didn't come home," Heat forward Udonis Haslem said. "We've been following the story, individually, very closely. It's just unfortunate. We just feel like something needed to be done about it. It's only right. It's only fair. ... I think it's at least a start in the right direction."

Other tributes were going on in NBA arenas on Friday night. Carmelo Anthony tweeted a photo of himself in a gray hoodie, with the words "I am Trayvon Martin!!!!!" over the picture, and his New York Knicks' teammate Amare Stoudemire -- a central Florida native -- arrived for his team's game in Toronto wearing a hooded sweater. Stoudemire also wore a gray hoodie while working out long before tipoff.

Wade also has been retweeting comments from CNN's Roland Martin on the case.

"You don't think your voice matter? 1,354,645 have signed the change.org petition demanding justice for Trayvon Martin," said one of Roland Martin's tweets, which Wade retweeted. "But the Trayvon Martin case is NOT over. Keep pushing. Keep prodding. Keep planning. Keep protesting. Justice is not an overnight thing!"

Miami-area high school students have held walkouts in protest, calling for justice for Trayvon Martin. Gov. Rick Scott appointed a special prosecutor in the case and established a statewide task force to study the law.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0323/nba_lebron1_300.jpg

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:25 PM

I agree with you in the general theory, however in these sorts of cases it is just up to how much cop butt you kiss. I wonder if our hero told the police how much he wanted to be a cop. I wonder if he tossed out a few sly reasons. I wonder if that's why they nodded and said "nothing to see here."

I'm almost positive of that being the case.

pcosmar

03-24-2012, 01:27 PM

Does that image really label a hoodie "a disguise"? Really?

Seems so. I heard that yesterday,, my wife was reading something from the next room. She went OFF.

I wear hoodies occasionally. my 66 yr old White Wife wears Hoodies.

To some they are style,, to others they are practical convenience.

This is the level of stupidity we have to deal with.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 01:29 PM

You're right. I'm wrong. I'm sure you would be devoting the exact same amount of attention and passion to this case if the races were reversed, and your position wouldn't shift even the slightest, because YOU are not a racist, not even a little bit. See, the problem here that other people have with this case -- not YOU, of course -- is that this case has become too racially charged for other people -- not YOU -- to maintain their objectivity. So, you continue to be right, and I'll just be wrong, because I suggested that the president should be just as concerned about the 17 year old American kids whose lives are directly in his hands. But, what the hell do I know? Nothing, apparently. You're right.

Here's the reality:

1. I don't think this guy would have gotten away without ever being charged if the races were reversed

2. If it did happen. I for damn sure wouldn't interrupt the discussion by constantly bringing up a war in Afghanistan to diminish the death of a white kid, or Hispanic kid or whatever.

I can compartmentalize issues. There is Travyon Martin a 17 year old unarmed kid who was shot dead in cold blood, and there is a war in Afghanistan. Two completely unrelated issues.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 01:35 PM

Seems so. I heard that yesterday,, my wife was reading something from the next room. She went OFF.

I wear hoodies occasionally. my 66 yr old White Wife wears Hoodies.

To some they are style,, to others they are practical convenience.

This is the level of stupidity we have to deal with.

It was raining and he was grabbing a couple of things from the store. That's pretty much a great time to wear a hoodie; the candy and tea fit in your pockets, the hood keeps you mostly dry in the event of the rain picking up suddenly.

"Disguise" my butt.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 01:35 PM

Oh great... that's all we need... a freaking race war.

Talk of a "race war" just like the many threads I read here about "WW3 is just around the corner" are greatly exaggerated.

What does that even mean? We all start shooting each other? 100% no chance.

Americans are a pretty united bunch and for the most part we all get along. In this case most everyone I know is outraged by this - black, white, Asian, Hispanic... my Indian girlfriend thinks this is as fucked up as I do.

For the record the Black Panthers are idiots. Maybe 50 years ago they were worth something positive I don't know. Today I'd put them in the same category as the KKK. Wannabe idiots who wish they still had the same clout they did decades ago. They're worthless and they'll talk a big game but they won't do shit.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 01:37 PM

Talk of a "race war" just like the many threads I read here about "WW3 is just around the corner" are greatly exaggerated.

What does that even mean? We all start shooting each other? 100% no chance.

Americans are a pretty united bunch and for the most part we all get along. In this case most everyone I know is outraged by this - black, white, Asian, Hispanic... my Indian girlfriend thinks this is as fucked up as I do.

For the record the Black Panthers are idiots. Maybe 50 years ago they were worth something positive I don't know. Today I'd put them in the same category as the KKK. Wannabe idiots who wish they still had the same clout they did decades ago. They're worthless and they'll talk a big game but they won't do shit.

What's meant by "race war" is the overheated tensions that will be played upon in the media now for months and months about this. It usually ends in a "race riot" which does not go well for anyone involved.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:38 PM

Here's the reality:

1. I don't think this guy would have gotten away without ever being charged if the races were reversed

2. If it did happen. I for damn sure wouldn't interrupt the discussion by constantly bringing up a war in Afghanistan to diminish the death of a white kid, or Hispanic kid or whatever.

FWIW, Zimmerman looks Hispanic to me.

puppetmaster

03-24-2012, 01:40 PM

Talk of a "race war" just like the many threads I read here about "WW3 is just around the corner" are greatly exaggerated.

What does that even mean? We all start shooting each other? 100% no chance.

Americans are a pretty united bunch and for the most part we all get along. In this case most everyone I know is outraged by this - black, white, Asian, Hispanic... my Indian girlfriend thinks this is as fucked up as I do.

For the record the Black Panthers are idiots. Maybe 50 years ago they were worth something positive I don't know. Today I'd put them in the same category as the KKK. Wannabe idiots who wish they still had the same clout they did decades ago. They're worthless and they'll talk a big game but they won't do shit.

They incite racism and are dangerous to the human race.

puppetmaster

03-24-2012, 01:41 PM

FWIW, Zimmerman looks Hispanic to me.

I believe he is.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:43 PM

For the record the Black Panthers are idiots. Maybe 50 years ago they were worth something positive I don't know. Today I'd put them in the same category as the KKK. Wannabe idiots who wish they still had the same clout they did decades ago. They're worthless and they'll talk a big game but they won't do shit.

Yet another example of how upside down things get when it comes to race.

How fast would KKK members no, strike that, KKK is mostly feds these days, how fast would a bunch of OathKeepers have been arrested if they said the same thing?

JWZguy

03-24-2012, 01:43 PM

I believe he is.
Several articles have stated that he is. For what that's worth.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:44 PM

I believe he is.

So is Hispanic "white"?

This is all very confusing...

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 01:44 PM

FWIW, Zimmerman looks Hispanic to me.

It appears so. His race is not the issue. His actions are.

What's meant by "race war" is the overheated tensions that will be played upon in the media now for months and months about this. It usually ends in a "race riot" which does not go well for anyone involved.

"Race war" sounds a lot more menacing than local race riot so at least call it like it is. "Race war" sounds like we're all going to start shooting each other in the streets and is unnecessarily inflammatory.

That said I think a riot is (a big one - meaning more than just a few idiots) is unlikely. No one I know is mad at white people, or Hispanics, or whoever. People I know are pissed off at Zimmerman and the authorities that let him get away. I haven't heard a single person say "let's take it out on Race X".

Ender

03-24-2012, 01:46 PM

Neighbors account of what happened the night of the shooting
Mary Cutcher and her roommate Selma Mora Lamilla, were at the scene of the gated community, The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford the night Martin was killed.

Cutcher and Lamilla told Anderson Cooper Tuesday that they heard whimpers and cries for help, looked out their window, and saw Zimmerman straddling Martin while Martin was dead on the ground. Zimmerman allegedly got up, scratched his head, and paced around Martin's body.

When they called out to Zimmerman he did not respond until the third time, at which time he told them to call police. The women said they felt police were siding with Zimmerman the night of the incident, despite what they told police.

Here is the interview:
http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/anderson-cooper-interviews-friend-of-trayvon-martin-s-killer-video

After listening to Zimmerman talk on the 911 tapes, it seems evident that he was running. And, after listening to the cries for help, it is my POV that the cries do not match Zimmerman's voice.

Also- the pictures that are on this post of Martin are a 140 kid having fun with the camera. All kids do this. And, Martin was barely 17, having had a birthday a week or so before he died.

Another fact is that Martin was walking BACK to his father's girlfriend's condo, Where, oh where, was Zimmerman when Martin had made his way to the store just a bit earlier?

It's too bad that the police did not do a better job, as now this thing has completely escalated into a national fiasco.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 01:52 PM

It appears so. His race is not the issue. His actions are.

But you yourself said that race had great deal to with it.

Here's the reality:

1. I don't think this guy would have gotten away without ever being charged if the races were reversed

"George Zimmermann" sounds as white and nerdy as you can get.

But the fact is, he is Hispanic.

That changes things, right or wrong.

Big difference in the public eye when they picture this:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/16/goetz-bernard.jpg

And not this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRD82Xm_8rSjqn4ALnVd9XdfNrWwgtON n4I_6xUP5b0gITvf2Sm8KWUr-sGEg

pcosmar

03-24-2012, 01:56 PM

So is Hispanic "white"?

This is all very confusing...

Sometimes,, except when Hispanic is black.

To me it is all irrelevant.
Zimmerman stalked him (for no good reason) got out of his vehicle (for no good reason) and confronted him (for no good reason).

then shot him. (for no good reason)

Then was released by the police. (for no good reason)

RideTheDirt

03-24-2012, 02:17 PM

Witness Says He Saw Trayvon Attack Zimmerman (Video)“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as “John,” and didn’t not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman’s claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
http://www.eurweb.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman-says-witnes/

Machiavelli

03-24-2012, 02:25 PM

Hispanic is not a race...Hispanic means having origin from a Spanish speaking country. You can be black Hispanic, white, Asian, green, Jew whatever. When ignorant Americans think of "Hispanics" they are probably assuming or picturing that they are part or mostly native Amerindians. That is the so called Hispanic "look". The problem is if you look at the demographics of countries like Uruguay or Argentina they are more then 90% white. Not every Hispanic is mestizo.

Also words like Latin(o) and Hispanic being used interchangeably is ignorant as well. You can be from a Latin American country and not be Hispanic, in the case of Brazil. The Latin countries in Europe can be considered Latino as well. There are countries in South America that are not Latin like Suriname or Guyana.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 02:46 PM

Zimmerman stalked him (for no good reason) got out of his vehicle (for no good reason) and confronted him (for no good reason).

then shot him. (for no good reason)

Then was released by the police. (for no good reason)

I have seen nothing yet to dissuade me from thinking the same thing.

AFPVet

03-24-2012, 02:48 PM

What's meant by "race war" is the overheated tensions that will be played upon in the media now for months and months about this. It usually ends in a "race riot" which does not go well for anyone involved.

Yup... and it detracts the mission of restoring the Republic. Race wars, entertainment and political fiascos, among other distractions, all too often, catch the attention of people.

Voluntary Man

03-24-2012, 02:58 PM

I don't think this guy would have gotten away without ever being charged if the races were reversed

FWIW, Zimmerman looks Hispanic to me.

It appears so. His race is not the issue. His actions are.

So, you'd be just as interested in and passionate about this case, if both men were black...or if both were Hispanic?

Come on! You're not even a little bit embarrassed by you blatant intellectual dishonesty? Not even a little?

A Son of Liberty

03-24-2012, 03:13 PM

What exactly drove you into a rage? A thread about an unarmed kid who got mowed down in Florida - and you were driven into a rage because of the war in Afghanistan? The two are not related AT ALL.

There are 100 threads about the war in Afghanistan and you are free to comment in them. This is about a kid who got mowed down here in the USA. Travyon Martin has nothing do with war or Afghanistan or Iraq or WMD's.

You're dense.

Obama commented on this issue. Obama is as guilty as this neighborhood watchman appears to be. Thus, my comments.

truelies

03-24-2012, 03:42 PM

............. if you were walking around at night through a neighborhood, and some dude was slowly following you in his car, then got out and confronted you, what precisely would you do? ....................

Personally, I don't wander around at night in strange neighborhoods with a high crime rate while dressed in thuggie regalia. HOWEVER were I to do so any local would have EVERY RIGHT to ask what my business was and to expect a civil answer.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 03:48 PM

Personally, I don't wander around at night in strange neighborhoods with a high crime rate while dressed in thuggie regalia. HOWEVER were I to do so any local would have EVERY RIGHT to ask what my business was and to expect a civil answer.

Try that with me, my first response is going to be:

"You a cop?"

My second response will be, assuming that the first question is answered in the negative will be:

"Mind your own business."

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 03:57 PM

Before or after he was told to stand down and stop following him?

I received this comment in a + rep on this post and thought it needed addressing:

I'm more concerned with whether Zimmerman was acting within his rights than whether he ignored the cops' orders.

Yes, I agree with that, up to this point:

If he was told to "stand down" and by doing so it would have defused the whole situation, and everything that happened after the fact, happened only because he continued the encounter when there was no good reason to do so, then, based on that I would say he was not within in rights, that there was no imminent threat other than the one he instigated.

One that, as I have said, had the situation been reversed, and somebody was following me and calling the cops on me for no real reason, I'd have punched the stalker in the face as well.

AFPVet

03-24-2012, 04:15 PM

I received this comment in a + rep on this post and thought it needed addressing:

Yes, I agree with that, up to this point:

If he was told to "stand down" and by doing so it would have defused the whole situation, and everything that happened after the fact, happened only because he continued the encounter when there was no good reason to do so, then, based on that I would say he was not within in rights, that there was no imminent threat other than the one he instigated.

One that, as I have said, had the situation been reversed, and somebody was following me and calling the cops on me for no real reason, I'd have punched the stalker in the face as well.

I agree.... Mr. Zimmerman went out of the bounds of his duties by pursuing the young male; however, if the kid was entering the neighborhood and loitering..., Mr. Zimmerman would have every right (as would any resident there) to inquire as to his intent. I would probably say something like "Excuse me sir, can I help you"? People do get lost as well. If he was headed to a "friends" house, he could just say that and it would be cool. Now if he smarted off or called me a dergotory expletive, I would have told him to leave the neighborhood.

r3volution

03-24-2012, 05:00 PM

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 05:02 PM

I received this comment in a + rep on this post and thought it needed addressing:

Yes, I agree with that, up to this point:

If he was told to "stand down" and by doing so it would have defused the whole situation, and everything that happened after the fact, happened only because he continued the encounter when there was no good reason to do so, then, based on that I would say he was not within in rights, that there was no imminent threat other than the one he instigated.

One that, as I have said, had the situation been reversed, and somebody was following me and calling the cops on me for no real reason, I'd have punched the stalker in the face as well.

We just don't know all the details. My understanding is that the 911 dispatcher told him not to follow; that is tantamount to me telling you not to piss into the wind...sound advice but in no way legally binding.

If it was his neighborhood, especially if it is a gated complex, he has every right to inquire what the guy was doing there; what happened from there is the crucial information. Furthermore, Florida, like almost every other state, extends arrest powers to anyone that has reasonable belief that they have witnessed a felony and furthers that to certain misdemeanors. Because we don't know the intimate details of the situation, I defer to the investigators that were on the ground immediately following the incident and not to a bunch of racial agitators and the huffington post. I, of course, reserve the right to change my mind if new evidence surfaces, but getting anything other than embellished hearsay seems unlikely at this point.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 05:06 PM

Personally, I don't wander around at night in strange neighborhoods with a high crime rate while dressed in thuggie regalia. HOWEVER were I to do so any local would have EVERY RIGHT to ask what my business was and to expect a civil answer.

WTF? So you're with Geraldo, that the kid was "asking for it" by wearing a hoodie and daring to walk to the store?

Good grief.

Oh, and most of the time, people in bad neighborhoods don't walk up to you in the middle of the night after having followed you to say "Hey! Nice weather we are having. Did you just come from the store? Are they still open? Did they have Skittles?"

Gary4Liberty

03-24-2012, 05:07 PM

In the meantime, on the other side of things, you have someone serving around a decade behind bars for setting up a webcam to tape his roommate having sex.

Something is very wrong here.

no he actually got what was coming to him. Not because the guy killed himself but just for taping them and showing others. 10 years deserves every day.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 05:08 PM

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Yeah... people keep quoting that. All it shows is that Martin was not shot on sight. How sad would it be if Martin "obeyed" that witness, stopped punching, and decided to wait for the cops... then got shot? Oh well. We don't know, because the witness that everyone keeps linking to DIDN'T SEE THAT PART and apparently DIDN'T SEE THE ENTIRE BEGINNING OF IT.

r3volution

03-24-2012, 05:16 PM

pcosmar

03-24-2012, 05:27 PM

If it was his neighborhood,

But you see, it was NOT his neighborhood. He did not own it. He was a self appointed thug.

The kids father lived in that neighborhood. The Kid was staying with his father in that neighborhood.
The kid had every right to be there.
Period. and without question.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 06:50 PM

But you see, it was NOT his neighborhood. He did not own it. He was a self appointed thug.

The kids father lived in that neighborhood. The Kid was staying with his father in that neighborhood.
The kid had every right to be there.
Period. and without question.

This.

You have a right to walk down the street and not be accosted and questioned by every two bit "block captain" that comes along, have it turn into a fight and get shot.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 06:57 PM

We just don't know all the details. My understanding is that the 911 dispatcher told him not to follow; that is tantamount to me telling you not to piss into the wind...sound advice but in no way legally binding.

Well, see, yes it does.

Granted, no telephone dispatcher can stop somebody from doing what they are going to do, but it makes a huge difference when determining justification.

I held a Florida CCW for many years, and one of the legal aspects they hammered into us when taking the course for that was that if you went looking for an altercation and that led to the use of deadly force, you would not have legal protection for that.

Now, "Stand Your Ground" may have changed that, but if it did, it's not in the law where I can see it.

If you stood outside a ginmill and thought that a shady character went in the door and was going to cause trouble, you went in after him, and it ended up in a barroom brawl that you had to use deadly force to protect yourself, you would not have legal standing and would be liable to charges ranging from manslaughter to murder.

^^^^ That was the exact analogy the instructor used.

ronpaulhawaii

03-24-2012, 07:01 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qs1ChDglY

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 07:05 PM

wow. the propaganda machine sensationalizes a story so there race bating employee can get them ratings all the while rallying blacks around obama for his reelection . and some of you here fall for it , i honestly held you guys to a higher standard and thought you would all see right through it .

nuff of this stupid thread for me .

You posted:

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

That's all well and good, but I'm still not sure people are understanding what's wrong with that.

It does not matter, if this happened after the fact of Zimmermann calling and reporting this.

You cannot legally justify use of deadly force if you actively go and pursue trouble and that then results in a situation where you have to use deadly force.

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 07:05 PM

Well, see, yes it does.

Granted, no telephone dispatcher can stop somebody from doing what they are going to do, but it makes a huge difference when determining justification.

I held a Florida CCW for many years, and one of the legal aspects they hammered into us when taking the course for that was that if you went looking for an altercation and that led to the use of deadly force, you would not have legal protection for that.

Now, "Stand Your Ground" may have changed that, but if it did, it's not in the law where I can see it.

If you stood outside a ginmill and thought that a shady character went in the door and was going to cause trouble, you went in after him, and it ended up in a barroom brawl that you had to use deadly force to protect yourself, you would not have legal standing and would be liable to charges ranging from manslaughter to murder.

^^^^ That was the exact analogy the instructor used.

It simply isn't that black and white. There are literally thousands of possible mitigating or aggravating circumstances involved in every situation like this. Again, we do not know the intimate details of this one, so I'm not going to be manipulated by elements that make their meals doing just that.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 07:07 PM

But you yourself said that race had great deal to with it.

I didn't do a good job explaining myself. I think race is the reason Trayvon was targeted and I think race is the reason the cops let him go without investigating.

I don't think it matters if Zimmerman is white, or Hispanic, or Asian, or black for that matter. He deserves to be put to justice for what he did and I don't care what race he is.

onlyrp

03-24-2012, 07:10 PM

But you see, it was NOT his neighborhood. He did not own it. He was a self appointed thug.

just like drivers don't own the road, it is not his, and they're self appointed users? The police have a right to be on the road?

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 07:16 PM

So, you'd be just as interested in and passionate about this case, if both men were black...or if both were Hispanic?

Come on! You're not even a little bit embarrassed by you blatant intellectual dishonesty? Not even a little?

You know what there is a good chance you are right. Maybe I am more interested to this case because I can relate to it more. So be it. We all have our hot button issues. That said:

1. My motivation is irrelevant. The fact are a guy killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood and got away with it. We should all agree that is fucked up.

2. If the races were reversed (which I don't think would happen) I would still agree that it was fucked up and justice should be done. I also wouldn't detract from the thread by continuing to bring up wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that have nothing to do with the case. I would never go to a thread where a white kid was dead and say "stop crying yesterday 15 kids got killed in a drone attack in Somalia". IT IS IRRELEVANT. I would either post and say "hey this is terrible" or I would skip over it and post in other topics. I would never be a dick about it.

3. I'm pissed off that people keep writing about other topics. A kid is dead - for NO reason! You might as well tell his parents "I am sorry your son is dead but did you know that last month 45 people died in drone attacks in Afghanistan"? NOT RELEVANT. We all have our hot button issues and this is one for me but I would never be insensitive enough to post in an Afghanistan thread "who cares about Afghanistan when Travyon Martin got shot". I would either be sympathetic to the thread topic or I would ignore it. I wouldn't continually post and distract from the relevant information.

I got in the same argument with a fellow African American poster a week ago where he told me that I should stop talking about an Iranian Pastor who is being executed for his religion while I wasn't posting enough about the TSA. That too was a hot button issue for me. We all have issues that matter more or less to us. But to detract from one thread by continuously bringing up another issue is insensitive and distracting.

An unarmed teenager is dead for NO REASON. We should be able to talk about that completely separate from the issue of the war in Afghanistan.

/Vent done.

BlackTerrel

03-24-2012, 07:18 PM

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 07:21 PM

It simply isn't that black and white. There are literally thousands of possible mitigating or aggravating circumstances involved in every situation like this. Again, we do not know the intimate details of this one, so I'm not going to be manipulated by elements that make their meals doing just that.

The facts thus presented so far, are almost word for word the analogy that I posted.

In that case, or one similar, under Florida law, you would not be justified in using deadly force.

That was from an ex cop turned prosecutor and firearms instructor.

Take it for what it's worth.

And now, I'm taking my own advice and backing out of this thread like I said I was going to 100 posts ago.

onlyrp

03-24-2012, 07:24 PM

1. My motivation is irrelevant. The fact are a guy killed an unarmed teenager in cold blood and got away with it. We should all agree that is fucked up.

2. If the races were reversed (which I don't think would happen) I would still agree that it was fucked up and justice should be done.

No, your motivations are irrelevant when they're YOUR motivations, if I had any, you'd not take it nicely.

As if it's shocking to anybody that ghettos regularly tolerate gangsters shooting innocent children and nobody even calls the police, "snitching" is frowned on and a crime on its own (thanks to self government and localization). It's nice of you to agree it's fucked up if the races were reversed, sadly most Americans do not.

TheNewYorker

03-24-2012, 07:37 PM

The police obviously have proof that the man was justified in shooting Trayvon or he would be in jail. The police look for any reason whatsoever to lock someone up and extort money from them. They must have DNA evidence or something showing that Trayvon attacked the guy before he got shot by him.

onlyrp

03-24-2012, 07:42 PM

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 07:47 PM

The facts thus presented so far, are almost word for word the analogy that I posted.

In that case, or one similar, under Florida law, you would not be justified in using deadly force.

That was from an ex cop turned prosecutor and firearms instructor.

Take it for what it's worth.

And now, I'm taking my own advice and backing out of this thread like I said I was going to 100 posts ago.

You are citing the very thing I did earlier in the thread; albeit, we are citing them for different reasons. Most cops and EVERY prosecutor are the same; they want the arrest and the conviction and neither of those things are terribly difficult to come by. Your instructor was speaking as a guy that would seek a conviction (for justice or to bolster his stats is irrelevant,) as a guy who had most likely prosecuted similar cases. The fact that the police didn't make an arrest and the attorney's office didn't seek a conviction weighs heavily on my thought process. The police did an investigation and presented their findings to the attorney's office and they chose not to file charges; that is a very big deal in any shooting especially one that involves a minor. There had to be significant circumstances surrounding this case that made the attorney think this was a loser. Again, there may be new facts that surface that change minds, but this far out all I expect is hearsay and emotionally charged embellishment.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:05 PM

Yeah, now people are complaining that the police are not tyrannical or incriminating enough :/

The opposite. The very definition of tyranny is when the verdict is given by the police without anything else going into it. This applies when the police judge you guilty and shoot/tase you, but it also applies when they decide to believe someone acted 100% in self-defense just on their word... as a cop-loving neighborhood watch guy.

The police did an investigation and presented their findings to the attorney's office and they chose not to file charges; that is a very big deal in any shooting especially one that involves a minor. There had to be significant circumstances surrounding this case that made the attorney think this was a loser.

Please familiarize yourself with "Stand Your Ground."

The police made a decision to believe the man acted in self-defense. There was no attorney involved in that decision. Based on the police decision, Zimmerman was not arrested.

AME3

03-24-2012, 08:09 PM

people are killing one another every night, left and right, young and old, black and white and the media rakes it in as they pimp the spin boom shakalaka boomOh yeah they're getting slaughtered by the thousands and the press is ignoring it!
:D:eek::rolleyes:

r3volution

03-24-2012, 08:10 PM

You posted:

That's all well and good, but I'm still not sure people are understanding what's wrong with that.

It does not matter, if this happened after the fact of Zimmermann calling and reporting this.

You cannot legally justify use of deadly force if you actively go and pursue trouble and that then results in a situation where you have to use deadly force. i frankly dont give a shit . fuck martin and fuck zimmerman . im 99% sure that both of these guys were douche bags that happened to run into each other and the media got it all wrong to serve there own self interests . im personally more concerned with governments that kill millions on a yearly basis . so go ahead and and take the bait people and divide over these 2 yoyos because the idiot box told you too . please dont respond to this .

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:16 PM

The "idiot box" did not tell me to care about this. I actually recall a similar case that we discussed on the forums, only it involved the "ding dong ditch" prank and an off-duty cop chasing down the alleged culprit.

Anyhow, if we're to discuss personal freedom, rule of law, and the application of justice as theories... it also pays to discuss them in practice.

None of us stopped being concerned about the "bigger picture." You're just being a snarky holier-than-thou jerk because you've decided what's worth talking about, and what isn't, but can't seem to take your own medicine.

Oh and "don't respond to this." :rolleyes:

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 08:16 PM

Please familiarize yourself with "Stand Your Ground."

The police made a decision to believe the man acted in self-defense. There was no attorney involved in that decision. Based on the police decision, Zimmerman was not arrested.

Not at all. The police would have carried out their investigation and filed a report with the public attorney's office who would make a decision to prosecute, not prosecute, or assemble a grand jury.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:18 PM

Not at all. The police would have carried out their investigation and filed a report with the public attorney's office who would make a decision to prosecute, not prosecute, or assemble a grand jury.

There is a grand jury assembling. He was not, however, arrested. No one can really seem to find him now.

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:19 PM

While the uproar continues over why George Zimmerman has not been arrested, soon the citizens of Seminole County will have their say as to whether or not he should be charged for killing Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

A grand jury composed of area residents will convene April 10 and hear from prosecutors, police and maybe even Zimmerman himself as they decide what to do.

Florida International University College of Law Professor Phyllis Kotey says it is “very unusual when you have criminal charges, especially of this nature, where there has not been at least an initial arrest.”

Kotey, who spent more than two decades as a prosecutor and judge, says what has happened with Zimmerman is not standard practice.

...

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 08:20 PM

There is a grand jury assembling. He was not, however, arrested. No one can really seem to find him now.

I finally googled this story. There is a grand jury to convene in April under a new prosecutor; rest assured, there will be a trial. Looks like we will get to the bottom of this.

cartemj06

03-24-2012, 08:20 PM

Given that Zimmerman had 100 pounds on the teen, and a gun, he probably figured it was going to be quick work and he'd be a hero (cop wannabe is already a label that's all over the news). Again, speculation, but I see it as possible that Zimmerman grabs the kid's hoodie and pulls him back to keep him from escaping. This might have been accompanied by some choice words, if Zimmerman's attitude on the 9-1-1 call is any indicator. Now, MAYBE he turned around with a "you stay right there; I'm on the phone with the cops" and he turned back towards his vehicle. That seems rather unlikely given that he thought the teen was such a danger. It sounds much more like an attempt to separate the actions, which would lend more credence to a self-defense claim. What I find more likely is that a kid who was already being followed, and possibly got called a name, decided that some fat jerk was not going to get away with that, and socked him in the nose. Zimmerman's nose was broken. With that kind of injury it's very likely they did go down and start fighting. What they haven't really released, or at least the news has not mentioned, is how far apart they were when the gun actually went off. Were they struggling on the ground? Did the teen get up and run away? Did he get up and gloatingly stand there?

The "violent assault" included a bloody nose, a little blood on the back of the head, and a cut. All of those injuries would be explained by the purely speculative account above, yet it would be easy to wedge the eye witness account in there. He did not appear to see the shooting. He saw the two fighting, then in a little bit he saw a corpse.

If the cops showed up and decided not to arrest the person who followed, fought with, then shot your child, you'd probably be a little mad, too.

This is what I am saying... right here, there isn't anything perfect about this story and its all muddled up. This story posted here by an anonymous poeter on a forum makes more sense than any MSM story I have seen so far. All I am saying is there is WAY more to this story than we are getting and as it goes the devil is in the details.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 08:21 PM

i frankly dont give a shit . fuck martin and fuck zimmerman . im 99% sure that both of these guys were douche bags that happened to run into each other and the media got it all wrong to serve there own self interests . im personally more concerned with governments that kill millions on a yearly basis . so go ahead and and take the bait people and divide over these 2 yoyos because the idiot box told you too . please dont respond to this .

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?368825-Trayvon-Martin

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 08:22 PM

MelissaWV

03-24-2012, 08:22 PM

I finally googled this story. There is a grand jury to convene in April under a new prosecutor; rest assured, there will be a trial. Looks like we will get to the bottom of this.

Correct. However, usually while people are "waiting to get to the bottom" of a killing, there's an arrest. Perhaps with the circumstances, his bail would have been pretty low (nothing's come forward to suggest he has a history of actually shooting people), and we'd be in this spot anyhow, but the process is just out of whack here.

Anti Federalist

03-24-2012, 08:27 PM

Correct. However, usually while people are "waiting to get to the bottom" of a killing, there's an arrest. Perhaps with the circumstances, his bail would have been pretty low (nothing's come forward to suggest he has a history of actually shooting people), and we'd be in this spot anyhow, but the process is just out of whack here.

Yes, and a bail hearing and arraignment.

I stand by my initial assessment.

This guy was an FOC and that's why they looked the other way.

Oh and the Ding Dong Ditch thread.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?241347-Chased-shot-and-killed-by-off-duty-cop-for-quot-ding-dong-ditch-quot

BamaAla

03-24-2012, 08:29 PM

Correct. However, usually while people are "waiting to get to the bottom" of a killing, there's an arrest. Perhaps with the circumstances, his bail would have been pretty low (nothing's come forward to suggest he has a history of actually shooting people), and we'd be in this spot anyhow, but the process is just out of whack here.

Not if the police and prosecutor believed that he was justified. It's all academic at this point; a man off the street could get a grand jury to return a true bill.

Brian4Liberty

03-24-2012, 09:20 PM

Racial politics. Otherwise, this would just be another story of someone getting shot that would get the most intense (and likely only) scrutiny right here on this forum.

truelies

03-24-2012, 09:27 PM

and in that case an eye will be kept on you until a regular cop arrives and if in the interval you choose to become violent you might well find that you have made a life altering mistake.

smhbbag

03-24-2012, 10:06 PM

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Gary4Liberty

03-24-2012, 11:59 PM

Yeah, now people are complaining that the police are not tyrannical or incriminating enough :/ They must be friends. Its the only way that expalins why he isnt in jail.

BlackTerrel

03-25-2012, 11:15 AM

No, your motivations are irrelevant when they're YOUR motivations, if I had any, you'd not take it nicely.

As if it's shocking to anybody that ghettos regularly tolerate gangsters shooting innocent children and nobody even calls the police, "snitching" is frowned on and a crime on its own (thanks to self government and localization). It's nice of you to agree it's fucked up if the races were reversed, sadly most Americans do not.

What?? Most Americans think it is ok for a guy to kill an unarmed teenager because of race? Bullshit. Maybe 1% of Americans think that - not most. Maybe a lot of the Florida PD are part of that 1%.

The police obviously have proof that the man was justified in shooting Trayvon or he would be in jail. The police look for any reason whatsoever to lock someone up and extort money from them. They must have DNA evidence or something showing that Trayvon attacked the guy before he got shot by him.

Bullshit. Why did they take his word for it on the scene? Did they already have DNA evidence then? This case is a supreme fuckup by all involved.

BlackTerrel

03-25-2012, 11:24 AM

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/1/7/8/9/5/5/3/Trayvon-Martin-Will-Smith-72644901534.jpeg#Trayvon%20Martin%2C%20Will%20Smit h

RonPaulMall

03-25-2012, 01:59 PM

Bullshit. Why did they take his word for it on the scene? Did they already have DNA evidence then? This case is a supreme fuckup by all involved.

Police came upon a dead body. The protocol in such a situation is not to arrest everybody within earshot of the body, but rather, to conduct an investigation to see if a crime was committed. The shooter reported to them his version of events, which if true would have indicated no crime was committed. The physical evidence and all other witnesses were consistent with the shooter's story. It is not an issue of "taking his word for it". He was the only eyewitness to the shooting. His testimony is the most crucial piece of evidence they have. Of course they are going to consider it when trying to determine what happened.

And Will Smith's analogy is a perfect example of the kind of knee jerk, unthinking analysis surrounding this case. Throwing flour on somebody is a crime. Killing someone who attacks you is not.

kylejack

03-25-2012, 02:32 PM

He was stalking Martin after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. He got out of his truck and followed Martin down the footpath behind the townhomes. Trayvon said "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman replied, "Why are you here?" Then there was an altercation, someone yelling for help, and the shooting.

Zimmerman was arrested for an altercation with a police officer previously, though the charge was dropped. Zimmerman also had a restraining order taken out against him for domestic violence. Zimmerman called police 46 times since January 2011 to report suspicious activity or other things, including one time he called to report a "suspicious 7-9 year old black male."

On the 911 call for Martin, Zimmerman is heard saying, "fucking coons."

RonPaulMall

03-25-2012, 03:04 PM

He was stalking Martin after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to.

Totally False. He was following him on a public street, which is perfectly legal. The 911 dispatcher has no authority to tell Zimmerman who he can or can not follow, and nmore to the point, never did tell him anything of the sort. Dispatcher told Zimmerman, "we don't need you" to follow Martin. As there had been a string of unsolved robberies in the area the police had done nothing to stop, we can hardly be surprised Zimmerman would be skeptical of the police force's claims of needing no assistance.

He got out of his truck and followed Martin down the footpath behind the townhomes. Trayvon said "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman replied, "Why are you here?" Then there was an altercation, someone yelling for help, and the shooting.

This seems is true for the most part. Though you omit the part where Zimmerman claims Martin initiated the assault and witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, and Zimmerman's own wounds consistent with his story.

Zimmerman was arrested for an altercation with a police officer previously, though the charge was dropped.

If the charges were dropped, more likely the police officer was in the wrong. Legit altercations with cops are rarely dismissed. On the flip side, everyone on this forum is familiar with the way police routinely abuse the "resisting arrest", "hindering an investigation" and "assaulting a police officer" charges. Restraining order absent any details tells us nothing.

Zimmerman called police 46 times since January 2011 to report suspicious activity or other things, including one time he called to report a "suspicious 7-9 year old black male."

As the neighborhood watch captain of a high crime area, this is surprising? And the fact he's been doing this work for so long without incident tends to support the idea he wouldn't go randomly attacking a kid in the street.

On the 911 call for Martin, Zimmerman is heard saying, "fucking coons."

Heard by whom? Al Sharpton? The 9/11 tape is inaudible at that point, and never in a million years would any sane, objective person interpret the garbled comment to be "fucking coons". "Fucking punks" is what it sounds most like.

kylejack

03-25-2012, 03:21 PM

This seems is true for the most part. Though you omit the part where Zimmerman claims Martin initiated the assault and witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, and Zimmerman's own wounds consistent with his story.
That's because Zimmerman's story doesn't parse. He claimed he got out of his truck to look at a street sign and that's when Martin attacked him. Yet that's impossible, because the altercation happened on the footpath, behind the townhomes (as reported by the other 911 calls).

RonPaulMall

03-25-2012, 03:33 PM

That's because Zimmerman's story doesn't parse. He claimed he got out of his truck to look at a street sign and that's when Martin attacked him. Yet that's impossible, because the altercation happened on the footpath, behind the townhomes (as reported by the other 911 calls).

You are taking a police spokesman's paraphrasing of something Zimmerman said out of context and twisting it to fit your preconceived notions. Do you honestly think Zimmerman told the police he got out of the car to look at a sign and was immediately attacked by Martin and that's where they fought and where he shot Martin? You believe that's what he said despite the body and fight area not being next to his car? Zimmerman likely cited looking at the street sign as his rationale for getting out of the car. Then maybe while looking at the street sign he spots Martin again on the footpath. He approaches him to ask him some questions and that's when he got assaulted. The police officer was paraphrasing and summarizing. Zimmerman got of the car to check for a sign, and it was while he was out of the car that he claims he was assaulted. Just because the entirety of Zimmerman's account of the events leading up to the fight were omitted doesn't mean you can act like they weren't provided. Common sense requires us to assume they exist.