Is secession treason?

[otherone]

"The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
-James Buchanan

It strikes me as odd that our two most significant conflicts, the Revolution and Civil War, were both conflicts for self-governance, yet history doesn't call them 'secession'.


Article III section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So a peaceful revolution is actually legal? :D

[Kluge]

"The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
-James Buchanan

It strikes me as odd that our two most significant conflicts, the Revolution and Civil War, were both conflicts for self-governance, yet history doesn't call them 'secession'.


Article III section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So a peaceful revolution is actually legal? :D

What does "legal" even mean anymore? I don't think much of anything is legal under our government since the Constitution is basically meaningless.

[Czolgosz]

You're enslaved and worrying about whether proposed methods of freeing yourself are lawful/legal? Free your mind and the question becomes moot.

[luctor-et-emergo]

What does "legal" even mean anymore? I don't think much of anything is legal under our government since the Constitution is basically meaningless.

Well there you go... Treason is simply one of those nice 'one size fits all' things.
In history a lot of things have been treasonous... Certainly there would be no reason for history to repeat itself ?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

If this be treason, then let's make the most of it.

[NoOneButPaul]

It's only treason if you lose.

[xFiFtyOnE]

Legal or not, the last time it was attempted over half a million people died and entire cities were burnt to the ground. I can bet you it would be alot worse these days.

[Republicanguy]

Secession cannot be treason because that would just be another form of tyranny approaching.

[Origanalist]

Secession cannot be treason because that would just be another form of tyranny approaching.

Tell that to the South. Abe Lincoln disagreed.

[The_Ruffneck]

Legal or not, the last time it was attempted over half a million people died and entire cities were burnt to the ground. I can bet you it would be alot worse these days.whats the alternative , sleepwalk into world war 3?
i notice usa/nato is looking to further expand into africa with this kony 2012 baloney , this ties into the ww3 scenario well , chaos is enveloping the globe.

[tfurrh]

legal? let me ask the UN or NATO....

[Matthew5]

He who has the guns, makes the rules. ;)

Secession is not treasonous, but that does not guarantee that the U.S. won't invade your new government in order to regain her former territory. Abe Lincoln just used a nationalistic motivator to justify his invasion.

[tod evans]

A state secedes whereas a person may be treasonous.

I don't think it is possible for a person to secede.

[tfurrh]

A state secedes whereas a person may be treasonous.

I don't think it is possible for a person to secede.

Unless you're Al Awlaki, I thought he said it three times from a mountaintop so it made it official.

[Origanalist]

whats the alternative , sleepwalk into world war 3?
i notice usa/nato is looking to further expand into africa with this kony 2012 baloney , this ties into the ww3 scenario well , chaos is enveloping the globe.

Uganda has been a hellhole and a looney bin for decades. The fact that all the celebrity types are jumping on this bandwagon is enough to make me stay away. Is it horrible what is going on there? Yes. Is this something new? No.

At some point we have to stop borrowing and printing worthless money to keep the rest of the planet in order.

[Johnny Appleseed]

Ask the Montana Freemen

[Republicanguy]

I certainly wouldn't agree with military intervention over there. Uk doesn't have that much recent history of intervening in Africa, it would be mis-placed vision to get involved.

[bolil]

Treason is a human construct, based thoroughly on perception and thus open to many interpretations. Is it treason to print money, with Federal permisission, and thus devalue the fruits of everyone else's labor? Some would say it is. How about going to war in direct violation of the Constitution Article one section eight? Is it treason so secede on account of the treason of the accusing party? Seems to me the war on drugs is treason committed against human nature.

Metaphysically there must exist a honest bond of loyalty/affection for treason to occur. Seeing as the government views us a little more than cogs, I guess their treason is not a definitive one.

[The Gold Standard]

Why would secession be treason? Treason is waging war against the United States. Secession is leaving the United States.

[Pericles]

Why would secession be treason? Treason is waging war against the United States. Secession is leaving the United States.

Winner. To refer to the conflict of 1861 to 1865 as the Civil War is an incorrect use of the term. A civil war is two or more factions fighting for control of an entity. There is no evidence that the Confederacy intended to take over the remaining states of the Union and impose its system of government upon them.

[bolil]

Treason can only be defined as acts of resistance by those who formerly conformed to the rule of certain set of humans. In other words... a bullshit concept.

[Athan]

whats the alternative , sleepwalk into world war 3?
There is an alternative. "Insulate" ourselves from it. If the body around you will be killing itself, don't make yourself and your local group (Ron Paul Supporters) dependent on a potential corpse. America isn't a government. It is liberty, independence, people, and in ways a trade form. Make sure Ron Paul supporters near you can pool your resources and stay organized.

I'm not worried about WW3 or insurrection in the US. Mathmatically though we are going to suffer economically. THAT is a given as it is past unsustainable.

[oyarde]

"The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
-James Buchanan

It strikes me as odd that our two most significant conflicts, the Revolution and Civil War, were both conflicts for self-governance, yet history doesn't call them 'secession'.


Article III section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So a peaceful revolution is actually legal? :D " Or in adhering to their enemies " ...... OK , who is the enemy ? Are the people not adhering to the Supreme Law of the Land the enemy ??

[Shorty Dawkins]

You're enslaved and worrying about whether proposed methods of freeing yourself are lawful/legal? Free your mind and the question becomes moot.

Excellent point.

[oyarde]

A state secedes whereas a person may be treasonous.

I don't think it is possible for a person to secede. I have considered that , Bummer , but counties can ?

[Shorty Dawkins]

Legal or not, the last time it was attempted over half a million people died and entire cities were burnt to the ground. I can bet you it would be alot worse these days.

When the great culling occurs, many more than the six hundred thousand who died in the War of Secession will die. And it will occur. It has been planned. You can die fighting, or go to your death pleading how unfair it is. They will just laugh at you. They are laughing at us now.

Shorty Dawkins

[tod evans]

I have considered that , Bummer , but counties can ?

I would think a county could secede from a state?

But I'm just some idiot out in the sticks.

[oyarde]

" Or in adhering to their enemies " ...... OK , who is the enemy ? Are the people not adhering to the Supreme Law of the Land the enemy ?? I think I had made 9,706 posts without using the word " their " , so , I was tempted the replace it with "the".....

[TheTexan]

Secession is an act of peace and respect.

[oyarde]

I would think a county could secede from a state?

But I'm just some idiot out in the sticks. I think it has been done before , but I do not know where to look , probably Indiana , Kentucky or Tennessee ?

[jmdrake]

A state secedes whereas a person may be treasonous.

I don't think it is possible for a person to secede.

Why not? How many people does it requires to be a state? When the south seceded from the Union some regions in the south seceded from their states. West Virginia is one example. A region in North Alabama is another. Those North Alabama soldiers were some of Sherman's best troops when he burned Georgia.

[TheTexan]

Why not? How many people does it requires to be a state? When the south seceded from the Union some regions in the south seceded from their states. West Virginia is one example. A region in North Alabama is another. Those North Alabama soldiers were some of Sherman's best troops when he burned Georgia.

Every individual has a natural right to secede. Unfortunately, like many of our natural rights, the people of this country will point a gun to your head if you try to assert it.

For secession to work, it must have legitimacy in the eyes of the people. The threshold for that legitimacy, I believe, is at the state level.

[oyarde]

Why not? How many people does it requires to be a state? When the south seceded from the Union some regions in the south seceded from their states. West Virginia is one example. A region in North Alabama is another. Those North Alabama soldiers were some of Sherman's best troops when he burned Georgia. I am familiar with the West Virginia unit that participated in a battle along the Ohio River against Confederate Cav. , I am unfamiliar with the North Alabama unit ?

[oyarde]

Every individual has a natural right to secede. Unfortunately, like many of our natural rights, the people of this country will point a gun to your head if you try to assert it.

For secession to work, it must have legitimacy in the eyes of the people. The threshold for that legitimacy, I believe, is at the state level. Why not a county ?

[TheTexan]

Why not a county ?

We could try it. Odds of success go down the smaller we go though, and I'm confident we could take a state.

[BattleFlag1776]

I am familiar with the West Virginia unit that participated in a battle along the Ohio River against Confederate Cav. , I am unfamiliar with the North Alabama unit ?

1st Alabama Cav.

[oyarde]

1st Alabama Cav. Thank you , give me some reading this evening .

[tod evans]

Why not a county ?

I would think that a well armed, defendable county would stand a chance of secession, especially if the citizens were not overtly aggressive.

I'd bet there'd be some major noise in Washington if even one county had the guts.

One family= Randy Weaver

One "group"= Waco

Who knows?

[jmdrake]

"The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
-James Buchanan

It strikes me as odd that our two most significant conflicts, the Revolution and Civil War, were both conflicts for self-governance, yet history doesn't call them 'secession'.


Article III section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So a peaceful revolution is actually legal? :D

I put the last part in bold because it's the most important part. We've had one successful peaceful revolution in this country. It was the nullification crisis. The president then was Andrew Jackson, beloved by southerners of his day for being the epitome of the "gentleman planter" (slave owning Indian killing tyrant) that they admired. Jackson is admired by (most) modern liberty lovers because he killed the 2nd bank of the U.S. But Andrew Jackson threatened to hang South Carolina secessionists. Back then the only issue on the table was tariffs. Clearly slave owning Andrew Jackson neither wanted to immediately end slavery (Lincoln didn't either) or restrict the expansion slavery (Lincoln wanted to restrict the expansion of slavery which would have led to its eventual abolition).

South Carolina stood up to Jackson on the issue of tariffs through nullification. But those South Carolinians had more patience then the ones who would later fire on Ft. Sumpter. They followed Jackson's admonition to "not fire until you see the whites of their eyes" to the letter. They didn't cooperate with the tariff, they didn't back down, they were armed and ready to fight if necessary, but they allowed the process to work itself out. In the end a face saving compromise was reached, the tariff they hated was abolished, war was avoided, and Andrew Jackson southern legacy was left untarnished (minus the slavery and Indian killing part). In contrast when Lincoln was elected, the southern senators abandoned their duty to their own states by resigning once secession happened. Yes I'm using strong words, but sometimes strong words are necessary. Had they stayed at their post, the Morill Tariff never would have passed. They could have kept congress hopelessly deadlocked on anything else Lincoln wanted to do. War could have been avoided again.

Now, really all of this secession talk has no relevance to the liberty movement. What state that might secede would any of you want to live in? Alabama where Ron Paul is currently in last place with 7%? Mississippi? Same thing. Tennessee? He got 9%. Oh yeah. The "free state" project. How many free staters who are into their "right" to walk around topless are ready to face down the full might of the federal government? The paradox is that those ready to "fight the new civil war" mostly don't give a rip about freedom in general. (Just like those who fought the previous civil war. Sorry but if they cared about freedom they would have freed their slaves and then seceded.) Those who care about freedom are small in number and/or not mentally prepared for the fight they are asking for. Nullification is the next best answer. Nullification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> secession.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnTlmznJTXo

[kahless]

Why not a county ?

I am always surprised this is not discussed more here. Why not at some point redirect Ron's powerful grassroots organization to designate specific areas that were overwhelming pro-Paul in the primaries and hold a regional succession vote. If you can prove you have a majority of the vote and organization behind you, I think most peoples attitude will be to "let them leave".

This small region of counties could be used as an example of the success of the policies of the liberty movement. What better way to influence change at the federal and state level across the nation by having this living example.

[otherone]

" Or in adhering to their enemies " ...... OK , who is the enemy ? Are the people not adhering to the Supreme Law of the Land the enemy ??

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

I bring this up to highlight that the USA is actually a THEM, a plural, not a singular entity. And while a State can't commit treason, as it is not a person, certainly the signers of the DoI were held to be committing treason. So, as an example, if the legislature of Texas said "eff off" to the federal government, are those persons complicit committing treason? It doesn't seem so based on the wording of the Constitution.

[TheTexan]

I am always surprised this is not discussed more here. Why not at some point redirect Ron's powerful grassroots organization to designate specific areas that were overwhelming pro-Paul in the primaries and hold a regional succession vote. If you can prove you have a majority of the vote and organization behind you, I think most peoples attitude will be to "let them leave".

This small region of counties could be used as an example of the success of the policies of the liberty movement. What better way to influence change at the federal and state level across the nation by having this living example.

Yep. These are the kinds of discussions and debates we need to be having.

[oyarde]

I would think that a well armed, defendable county would stand a chance of secession, especially if the citizens were not overtly aggressive.

I'd bet there'd be some major noise in Washington if even one county had the guts.

One family= Randy Weaver

One "group"= Waco

Who knows? Yeah , I think a County would do it.

[otherone]

Yep. These are the kinds of discussions and debates we need to be having.

If I'm not mistaken, every State's Constitution has it's own definition of 'treason', which necessarily differs from the the US Constitution's.

[oyarde]

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

I bring this up to highlight that the USA is actually a THEM, a plural, not a singular entity. And while a State can't commit treason, as it is not a person, certainly the signers of the DoI were held to be committing treason. So, as an example, if the legislature of Texas said "eff off" to the federal government, are those persons complicit committing treason? It doesn't seem so based on the wording of the Constitution. Hmmm , interesting ...

[jmdrake]

Every individual has a natural right to secede. Unfortunately, like many of our natural rights, the people of this country will point a gun to your head if you try to assert it.

If you fight with violence yes. But if you assert yourself non violently you may bring down the wrath of the goons of the state but not the ordinary people.



For secession to work, it must have legitimacy in the eyes of the people. The threshold for that legitimacy, I believe, is at the state level.

As governor, Rick Perry flirted with secession. It was not because he cared about his fellow Texans but because secession had become a popular buzzword. Would you be willing to fight for and live in a "free" state of Texas run by Rick Perry? Because I wouldn't. When the South seceded they didn't really have "legitimacy" in the eyes of their own people either. If they did they wouldn't have been the first side to institute a draft (http://www.civilwarhome.com/conscription.htm). That's right. Rich planters in the South seceded largely because they wanted to protect slavery. They said so in their secession declarations. Sure there was other reasons, but that was the primary one. Tariffs were an excuse. Tariffs were at historic lows when Lincoln was elected president. The Morrill tariff would not have passed but for the southern senators abandoning their positions. And to show how much these Rich planters loved slavery, they enslaved free white men through a military draft to fight their war for them. Oh sure, the North soon followed suit with a draft of their own. Later a Northern general would go so far as to temporarily enslave free blacks in Nashville to help him build Ft. Negley. A pox on both houses.

Here's the bottom line. Nobody should be eager for war. Nobody. No matter how just you believe your cause to be, war inevitably leads in the long run to more harm than good. Organize for mutual self defense? By all means. But let the fight come to you. Never go to it. The south should have never fired on Ft. Sumpter. Once the war started they should have stayed in a defensive posture. Southern senators should have remained at their posts and waited for Lincoln to force them out. If all they really wanted was free trade, they should have preemptively freed their slaves to take that argument off the table. What should they have done to those free slaves? Put them on a train headed north and let the northern states figure that out.

[jmdrake]

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

I bring this up to highlight that the USA is actually a THEM, a plural, not a singular entity. And while a State can't commit treason, as it is not a person, certainly the signers of the DoI were held to be committing treason. So, as an example, if the legislature of Texas said "eff off" to the federal government, are those persons complicit committing treason? It doesn't seem so based on the wording of the Constitution.

Irrelevant. The U.S. constitution gives the U.S. congress unfettered power to declare war against a foreign country. So let's say states did have a right to secede and form a new country. Okay. The U.S. congress has unfettered power to declare war against that new country. Now maybe you say "Well that's preemptive war and preemptive war is wrong". Preemptive war may be wrong but it is not unconstitutional. I don't know of any former confederates that after the civil war were tried for treason. General Lee certainly wasn't. Jefferson Davis wasn't. If any were that was the exception and not the rule. Whether this was an act of treason or not doesn't matter because the treason clause wasn't needed to declare and fight a war against what was then a foreign power.

[Black Flag]

It's only treason if you lose.

Exactly, to a "T"

[otherone]

So let's say states did have a right to secede and form a new country. Okay. The U.S. congress has unfettered power to declare war against that new country. Now maybe you say "Well that's preemptive war and preemptive war is wrong". Preemptive war may be wrong but it is not unconstitutional. I don't know of any former confederates that after the civil war were tried for treason. General Lee certainly wasn't. Jefferson Davis wasn't. If any were that was the exception and not the rule.

The Civil War is a poor example. The US was responding to military force. What justification could Washington have to 'invade' a former State? These aren't 'brown' foreigners ululating in an alien tongue. Do you think Americans would tolerate them murdering their parents and children?

[tod evans]

At 50k feet this sounds acceptable.

Drop down to 10k feet....What county in todays day is capable of self sufficiency?

Is anybody on this board aware of a county who's current government is acceptable?

What about gas-n-oil?

Would land-locked or coastal be better?

Barter or trade with the USA?

There's a lot of stuff to think about before anyone even gets down to the no more "federal money" problem.

[Pericles]

Yeah , I think a County would do it.

Working on it and hope to find out.

[tod evans]

And another thought.......

If a county actually seceded what is to say our good ol' government wouldn't buy off the elected government with pallets of 100's like they've been doing in the middle east?

[ShaneEnochs]

Would President Ron Paul allow a state to secede? I have a hard time believing he would allow the country to shatter under his watch.

[tod evans]

Would President Ron Paul allow a state to secede? I have a hard time believing he would allow the country to shatter under his watch.

This specific group of people would probably choose not to secede but who's to say another group might not want to?

I'm not hearing talk of secession as much as I'm hearing "i'm fed-up", what can be done?

[Matthew5]

Would President Ron Paul allow a state to secede? I have a hard time believing he would allow the country to shatter under his watch.

I'm not sure, he believes in State's rights. He'd certainly be in a pickle if Congress declared war on the newly formed country.

[ShaneEnochs]

I'm not sure, he believes in State's rights. He'd certainly be in a pickle if Congress declared war on the newly formed country.

State's rights or not, I doubt he'd allow a state to secede. I could see perhaps a community, but not an entire state.

[Pericles]

You do not have to seceed at the county level to be successful. Suppose you have a state with no income tax, and few items at the state level such as drivers license, car registrations, some professional licenses, but otherwise relatively benign. In a county with a small population, a part time sheriff (no other law enforcement), part time DA, a school enrollment of less than 50 students ....

A few freedom minded individuals can have a lerge impact - no zoning requirements, building codes, unincorporated areas, except for one town ....

A little capital, say a $1000 buy in that gets you an acre of land where you can register to vote. You quickly have a county government and school board that sees things your way. There are no state or federal "offices" in your county. It would only get better from there.

[jmdrake]

The Civil War is a poor example. The US was responding to military force. What justification could Washington have to 'invade' a former State? These aren't 'brown' foreigners ululating in an alien tongue. Do you think Americans would tolerate them murdering their parents and children?

You've basically described the South Carolina nullification crisis. The revolution where the state won. They didn't actually secede. They didn't need to. But they succeded. Then the fight was over tariffs. Tariffs are no longer the primary form of revenue. Now it is the income tax. States could theoretically take a form of civil disobedience to the income tax. Finding a state were most people were willing to do that...that would be a problem.

[jmdrake]

Would President Ron Paul allow a state to secede? I have a hard time believing he would allow the country to shatter under his watch.

I would be suspicious of any state that wanted to secede if Ron Paul was president.

[Pericles]

You've basically described the South Carolina nullification crisis. The revolution where the state won. They didn't actually secede. They didn't need to. But they succeded. Then the fight was over tariffs. Tariffs are no longer the primary form of revenue. Now it is the income tax. States could theoretically take a form of civil disobedience to the income tax. Finding a state were most people were willing to do that...that would be a problem.

I'd prefer to trigger the "crisis" over some idiotic regulation that 80% of the county would think stupid - the EPA or Education Department would be good candidates. The threat of force used in making the rule stick would be the critical decision some GS or SES puke would have to get approved and funded. That could be interesting, especially if the county emergency board saw it as a threat to public order and called on the governor for use of state military forces to prevent disorder.

[heavenlyboy34]

A state secedes whereas a person may be treasonous.

I don't think it is possible for a person to secede.
It is possible. It's called microsecession. :cool: Don't have it handy, but Mises wrote about it.

[heavenlyboy34]

State's rights or not, I doubt he'd allow a state to secede. I could see perhaps a community, but not an entire state.
Unfortunate if that's true. :( Jefferson thought secession was okay, and I don't see any problem with it.

[pen_thief]

You're enslaved and worrying about whether proposed methods of freeing yourself are lawful/legal? Free your mind and the question becomes moot.

Exactly. My reply was far less eloquent, ("Who cares?")
:)

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

simple answer - no

[Anti Federalist]

If this be treason, then let's make the most of it.


It's only treason if you lose.

That and that.

[heavenlyboy34]

That and that.+1

[Mr. Rapp]

These sound like dangerous ideas and this probably is one of the many reasons why Ron Paul has not won a state. Everybody reads these forums and topics like these show up. The government will not allow any candidate whose followers openly talk of secessions, revolutions, etc. to gain footholds by winning states and claiming their ideas are not that of the federal government. I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union. I think its our job to convince them that is not our intent and that we strive to better our country with new fresh ideas and choices.

[otherone]

States could theoretically take a form of civil disobedience to the income tax. Finding a state were most people were willing to do that...that would be a problem.

There is always 'free state' talk at RPF, with the idea that a current state population can be 'overpowered' by an influx of the Freedom-minded. But let's look at Texas, for instance...with a legislature composed of a 31-member Senate and a 150-member House of Representatives, wouldn't it be more plausible to get RPFer's in the majority, and then pass legislation that says, for instance, that all personal federal income tax must be sent through Austin? Nebraska has the smallest legislature at 49...only 30 souls are necessary to be veto-proof!

[heavenlyboy34]

These sound like dangerous ideas and this probably is one of the many reasons why Ron Paul has not won a state. Everybody reads these forums and topics like these show up. The government will not allow any candidate whose followers openly talk of secessions, revolutions, etc. to gain footholds by winning states and claiming their ideas are not that of the federal government. I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union. I think its our job to convince them that is not our intent and that we strive to better our country with new fresh ideas and choices.
Nobody said freedom was safe, bro. ;) Freedom is probably the most dangerous thing in life. Life is so dangerous it could kill you! :eek: ;)

[Czolgosz]

Glad to see friends talking about actions to free ourselves.

I don't want to readily dismiss some of the points made about secession, nullification, counties, legal/lawful, etc., but try and not be too mired in the semantics of freeing yourself from a violent master. Keep in mind that most of us here want to see our actions result in more and more freedom, as far as we can go. This should unite us.

While we may disagree on how to approach resolution, we must remember to ultimately support one another's endeavor. I personally believe that we should consolidate into a self sustainable area (coastal, w/ resources) and enforce our Constitutionally preserved rights together (united We stand). And agree that we should act just as we believe the current Federal government should act, willing to talk and trade. Not aggressive, but willing and able to defend (as pointed out by jm).

Others would like to see us continue to work within the master's system, to re-educate, and reign in the abusive Fed. While I believe this could work, if properly done, it would take generations. I support you folks who will take this route.

If this isn't just talk and y'all are serious, we need to build a roadmap, of sorts, utilizing history and individuals of various knowledge (legal, business, military, tech, farmers, geologists, you name it.). We must inquire w/ liberty activists across America, not just on RPF. A short list of discussion points and requirements were mentioned, they include (but are not limited to)

Coastal or inland
Sustainability
etc.

[Czolgosz]

These sound like dangerous ideas and this probably is one of the many reasons why Ron Paul has not won a state. Everybody reads these forums and topics like these show up. The government will not allow any candidate whose followers openly talk of secessions, revolutions, etc. to gain footholds by winning states and claiming their ideas are not that of the federal government. I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union. I think its our job to convince them that is not our intent and that we strive to better our country with new fresh ideas and choices.

I doubt RPF is that influential. Most slugs get home from work, eat their Panda Express in front of the t.v., watch a drama, then go to sleep. I *wish* they actually read something counter to what they're spoon fed.

[pen_thief]

I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union.

My state's already an embarrassment. It budgets itself about as well as a 16-year-old with daddy's credit card.

I couldn't start a baking business here because I was baking in my own kitchen (no inspections or qualification classes, the answer's just NO).
They just voted down the most watered down medical marijuana proposal last year for something like the third time (seeing what morphine does to cancer patients makes me absolutely livid).
Our governors here? Ryan's in prison and Blagojevich is headed there. Quinn was happy to jack up the income tax 60% for the aforementioned budget problem.

It's about time Illinois grew a pair. I'd be proud to live here for once.

[Matthew5]

These sound like dangerous ideas and this probably is one of the many reasons why Ron Paul has not won a state. Everybody reads these forums and topics like these show up. The government will not allow any candidate whose followers openly talk of secessions, revolutions, etc. to gain footholds by winning states and claiming their ideas are not that of the federal government. I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union. I think its our job to convince them that is not our intent and that we strive to better our country with new fresh ideas and choices.

Dangerous ideas?? No one is advocating violence here. Just a friendly what-if discussion and reviewing the history of such.

And trust me, there's been enough anarchistic talk here to send that signal a long time ago. This is simply an academic discussion. Our country would be better served if people spoke openly about all aspects of liberty. Even to how far an individual has a right to choose their government (if any at all). If anyone wants to blow this out of context and use it as a smear, they could find a lot worse and were predisposed to ill-will anyway.

What good would a RP presidency/liberty movement be if we couldn't openly discuss these ideas?

[TheTexan]

We just need this movement to 1) Accept that secession is the only viable path to freedom, 2) Decide on where and how we secede, whether micro, state, county, or what have you, 3) Do it.

Freedom in 3 easy steps.

[PierzStyx]

Legal or not, the last time it was attempted over half a million people died and entire cities were burnt to the ground. I can bet you it would be alot worse these days.

This^ In our day and age the USA would dominate any secessionist state. The USA simply has more resources, more weapons, more money, and more men. And it has international allies who are tied up in its continued survival. We wouldn't be just fighting Washington, we'd be fighting NATO. Unless you have a majority of the country joining you, it just isn't feasible. And we can see how much of the country supports secession-zilch.

[TheTexan]

This^ In our day and age the USA would dominate any secessionist state. The USA simply has more resources, more weapons, more money, and more men. And it has international allies who are tied up in its continued survival. We wouldn't be just fighting Washington, we'd be fighting NATO. Unless you have a majority of the country joining you, it just isn't feasible. And we can see how much of the country supports secession-zilch.

You're looking at it like it's an equation of who has more resources. It's not.

[otherone]

You're looking at it like it's an equation of who has more resources. It's not.

In a world dominated by the pseudo-legal phantom, IMO, the only way to interact is pseudo-legally. IMO, a peaceful, legal secession, validated in a court of law, may succeed when military action fails.

[TheTexan]

In a world dominated by the pseudo-legal phantom, IMO, the only way to interact is pseudo-legally. IMO, a peaceful, legal secession, validated in a court of law, may succeed when military action fails.

Definitely an avenue worth consideration.

[oyarde]

1st Alabama Cav. Fascinating , a few things I noticed that are different . The capture rate for these troopers was low . The wounded , mortally wounded , killed was high , about normal levels . What was a bit different was the extremely low rate of killed or mortally wonded officers ( about .25 % ) , death by disease totals , very low ( about .7 % ) , meaning , I think , they ate better on avg. ( my guess ) , because the medical care at the time should have been equally bad , everywhere . Then the desrtion rate was a bit high ( nearly 14 % ) .

[oyarde]

And another thought.......

If a county actually seceded what is to say our good ol' government wouldn't buy off the elected government with pallets of 100's like they've been doing in the middle east? There is history to that , 1890's Nebraska Panhandle basically threatened to secede to Wyoming because of the states failure to enact water laws that Wy had to encourage irrigation , Nebraska , then enacted the desired laws.

[oyarde]

Would President Ron Paul allow a state to secede? I have a hard time believing he would allow the country to shatter under his watch. There would be no reason too , no bills would be signed that allowed taxation and spending outside of Article One , Section Eight , the First , Second , fourth and Tenth would be honestly honored , meaning states would have more control and responsibility for themselves , some of the most poerful people would be state reps , without a war chest full of money , that run to be re elected every two years and the local newspaper would hold them accountable for voting record .

[oyarde]

Working on it and hope to find out. It has been awhile , what is it they call them there ? Cantons ?

[oyarde]

These sound like dangerous ideas and this probably is one of the many reasons why Ron Paul has not won a state. Everybody reads these forums and topics like these show up. The government will not allow any candidate whose followers openly talk of secessions, revolutions, etc. to gain footholds by winning states and claiming their ideas are not that of the federal government. I don't think any state wants to be embarrassed or accused of disloyalty to the union. I think its our job to convince them that is not our intent and that we strive to better our country with new fresh ideas and choices. I see your point and respect your opinion , at the same time , if we had won a couple of states I probably would not be on this thread . except , maybe , my posts regarding history . I cannot say I am sorry , but , I will buy you a beer.

[oyarde]

I doubt RPF is that influential. Most slugs get home from work, eat their Panda Express in front of the t.v., watch a drama, then go to sleep. I *wish* they actually read something counter to what they're spoon fed. I tend to agree , what is Panda Express ? am I missing out ?

[oyarde]

simple answer - no No to treason ??

[heavenlyboy34]

I tend to agree , what is Panda Express ? am I missing out ?
Chinese for yummy! ;) (lolz...it's a Chinese take-out restaurant)

[oyarde]

There is always 'free state' talk at RPF, with the idea that a current state population can be 'overpowered' by an influx of the Freedom-minded. But let's look at Texas, for instance...with a legislature composed of a 31-member Senate and a 150-member House of Representatives, wouldn't it be more plausible to get RPFer's in the majority, and then pass legislation that says, for instance, that all personal federal income tax must be sent through Austin? Nebraska has the smallest legislature at 49...only 30 souls are necessary to be veto-proof! About 100 years ago , just the panhandle of Nebraska was able to extort what they felt they needed from all Cornhuskers.

[PierzStyx]

You're looking at it like it's an equation of who has more resources. It's not.

The hell it isn't. Secession means one thing-WAR. The USA will got to war to preserve the Union. They did it once and they'd do it again. If you're fighting a nation that is overwhelmingly superior to you in every way, you will lose. Your ideals don't mean a thing if you can't defend them.

[oyarde]

Chinese for yummy! ;) (lolz...it's a Chinese take-out restaurant) I like Chinese , I have never seen one , that I know of.

[PierzStyx]

In a world dominated by the pseudo-legal phantom, IMO, the only way to interact is pseudo-legally. IMO, a peaceful, legal secession, validated in a court of law, may succeed when military action fails.

And what court of law would authorize that? The US? Never. The UN? Considering the US has veto power again nope. The "World Court"? Only if you're willing to bow to its will. The US would declare the state in rebellion and use military force to re-take it. This is the reality of the issue. The fact that you can't face the reality of it means you will fail. Secession may appeal to ideology. But it just doesn't stand up in the real world.

[heavenlyboy34]

I like Chinese , I have never seen one , that I knowof. Search for a restaurant near you here: http://pandaexpress.com/locations/#!/current-locations

[heavenlyboy34]

And what court of law would authorize that? The US? Never. The UN? Considering the US has veto power again nope. The "World Court"? Only if you're willing to bow to its will. The US would declare the state in rebellion and use military force to re-take it. This is the reality of the issue. The fact that you can't face the reality of it means you will fail. Secession may appeal to ideology. But it just doesn't stand up in the real world.
Constitutionalism suffers this problem as well. /end ramble

[oyarde]

My state's already an embarrassment. It budgets itself about as well as a 16-year-old with daddy's credit card.

I couldn't start a baking business here because I was baking in my own kitchen (no inspections or qualification classes, the answer's just NO).
They just voted down the most watered down medical marijuana proposal last year for something like the third time (seeing what morphine does to cancer patients makes me absolutely livid).
Our governors here? Ryan's in prison and Blagojevich is headed there. Quinn was happy to jack up the income tax 60% for the aforementioned budget problem.

It's about time Illinois grew a pair. I'd be proud to live here for once. My sincere compassion to you for where you are at. taxes are too high there , the whole thing is unsustainable

[PierzStyx]

Constitutionalism suffers this problem as well. /end ramble

Not if the people weren't willing to be lead by the nose like an ox. We got lazy with our freedoms and lost them. But that is a stark difference when compared to secession today. We failed The Constitution. We lost faith in it. Secession wouldn't work no matter how hard the faithful tried.

[oyarde]

Not if the people weren't willing to be lead by the nose like an ox. We got lazy with our freedoms and lost them. But that is a stark difference when compared to secession today. We failed The Constitution. We lost faith in it. Secession wouldn't work no matter how hard the faithful tried. Your suggestion ? Please keep it short , Iam an older fellow ;)

[RickyJ]

It's only treason if you lose.

The victors write the history books. Right or wrong their version is the only one ever heard for most in future generations.

[heavenlyboy34]

Not if the people weren't willing to be lead by the nose like an ox. We got lazy with our freedoms and lost them. But that is a stark difference when compared to secession today. We failed The Constitution. We lost faith in it. Secession wouldn't work no matter how hard the faithful tried.
Spooner continues to be vindicated-and smiles from his grave. Whoever this "We" you speak of is, it's noone alive. I cannot logically or morally be held to a contract I did not sign. No Treason: The Constitution Of No Authority. (http://www.freedomforallseasons.org/TaxFreedomEmail/LysanderSpoonerNoTreason.pdf)

[oyarde]

The victors write the history books. Right or wrong their version is the only one ever heard for most in future generations. Well ,I believe in winning.

[oyarde]

Plan for the U P in Michigan , in 1820 was , to become a state , if Kansas allowed slavery to keep the balance of free states in the Senate.

[oyarde]

The Joint Resolution of Congress that brought The Republic of Texas to the Union , allowed Texas the right to divide itself into five States. This would have to be approved by the Texas Legislature .

[oyarde]

2002 , US Congress voted to allow Wendover Utah to leave Utah and join Nevada , to become one with East Wendover , Harry Reid . blocked this in the Senate . 2008 , considered in Utah ( Joint Resolution 6 ) for a seperate State in Southern Utah , did not die until it reached the Utah State Senate.

[oyarde]

Hamlet of Town Line , New York seceded 1861 , in the 1920's , it was discovered they were not paying taxes and outside the union, in 1946 , they voted to rejoin.

[oyarde]

Scott County , Tennesee officially passed a proclamation to secede from Tennesee , 1961 ,in 1986 , when discovered to still be on the books , it was repealed and petitioned for readmission to Tennesee , though the secession had never been recognized by state or feds.

[oyarde]

These are about the only victorious things I could find today , but , my time has been limited....

[oyarde]

Bet , Pete would have been good with the U P being its own state ;)

[oyarde]

Hamlet of Town Line , New York seceded 1861 , in the 1920's , it was discovered they were not paying taxes and outside the union, in 1946 , they voted to rejoin. Think they regret that now ????

[oyarde]

I am a Great American Patriot , and I secede until at least Mon Afternoon , I am not paying any taxes until then ! ( this may mean I have to get my Honey to pick me up a twelve pack Sat. afternoon ) . I have a garden to till , oil to change , bird feeders to fill , a pond that needs dredged to look at , weapons to clean & oil ... Ahh . i am a busy man . Once the campaign is over , I will need a small donation to my Founation in exchange for the research ;)

[oyarde]

I think it has been done before , but I do not know where to look , probably Indiana , Kentucky or Tennessee ? Took me a bit , but I found what I was looking for , in Tenn. , I knew it was one of them , I know , I am stil missing one of the others , But I have so much to do ...

[oyarde]

" Or in adhering to their enemies " ...... OK , who is the enemy ? Are the people not adhering to the Supreme Law of the Land the enemy ?? I further declare an Oyarde Holiday and All UnConstitutional assholes must leave me be until Tue , pretend like I am a resident of Town Line , New York in 1919 :)

[MikeStanart]

Contradicting the values of our Founding Fathers; and the principles of Liberty are the true treasonous acts.

[Czolgosz]

Not if the people weren't willing to be lead by the nose like an ox. We got lazy with our freedoms and lost them. But that is a stark difference when compared to secession today. We failed The Constitution. We lost faith in it. Secession wouldn't work no matter how hard the faithful tried.

Did I miss a solution proffered by you?

[Czolgosz]

I am a Great American Patriot , and I secede until at least Mon Afternoon , I am not paying any taxes until then ! ( this may mean I have to get my Honey to pick me up a twelve pack Sat. afternoon ) . I have a garden to till , oil to change , bird feeders to fill , a pond that needs dredged to look at , weapons to clean & oil ... Ahh . i am a busy man . Once the campaign is over , I will need a small donation to my Founation in exchange for the research ;)

Sounds like the life.

[BuddyRey]

"Treason" is just an absurd anti-concept somebody made up to try and legitimize a predator-prey relationship. If a battered wife reports her abusive husband to the police, or, God forbid, defends against him herself, is she "guilty of treason", or is she acting rationally to free herself of a predator who's sucking her life and her spirit away?

You owe no special allegiance to the government or its agents, beyond behaving peaceably toward them (which, if you're a good libertarian, is how you behave with everyone). They're not your benefactors or your friends just because they say they are, and because they've been saying so for most of your life. As with any other common predator or bully, you have every right to ignore them.

[otherone]

The US would declare the state in rebellion and use military force to re-take it. The fact that you can't face the reality of it means you will fail. Secession may appeal to ideology. But it just doesn't stand up in the real world.

Huh? I'm just asking questions. This isn't reality...it's the interwebz...not the real world...ya' know? Virtual. An artifice...kinda like government , come to think of it. Anyway....what is the Constitutional basis to declare a State in rebellion? Is a peaceful secession an act of war?

[Czolgosz]

You owe no special allegiance to the government, beyond behaving peaceably toward it and its agents (which, if you're a good libertarian, is how you behave with everyone). They're not your benefactors or your friends just because they say they are, and because they've been saying so for most of your life.

But...but, you cannot simply break up with them! They have rules. And what of their procedures?

[otherone]

But...but, you cannot simply break up with them! They have rules. And what of their procedures?

just text the break-up...less messy...

[BuddyRey]

But...but, you cannot simply break up with them! They have rules. And what of their procedures?

:D

[BuddyRey]

Spooner continues to be vindicated-and smiles from his grave. Whoever this "We" you speak of is, it's noone alive. I cannot logically or morally be held to a contract I did not sign. No Treason: The Constitution Of No Authority. (http://www.freedomforallseasons.org/TaxFreedomEmail/LysanderSpoonerNoTreason.pdf)

This!

[ShaneEnochs]

We just need this movement to 1) Accept that secession is the only viable path to freedom, 2) Decide on where and how we secede, whether micro, state, county, or what have you, 3) Do it.

Freedom in 3 easy steps.

Bet that's what those folks in Waco thought too.

[Tod]

It's only treason if you lose.

^ this

Treason is a term applied by the subject of rebellion. It holds no meaning for the other side.

Kind of like the expression, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter".

[Wesker1982]

Spooner continues to be vindicated-and smiles from his grave. Whoever this "We" you speak of is, it's noone alive. I cannot logically or morally be held to a contract I did not sign. No Treason: The Constitution Of No Authority. (http://www.freedomforallseasons.org/TaxFreedomEmail/LysanderSpoonerNoTreason.pdf)

I see my work here is already done.

[oyarde]

7/13/77 , Kinney Minnesota announced its secession. Not sure of the current status on that ...

[oyarde]

Is secession treason ? If I was able to get my county to secede , I would not feel treasonous . I do feel the govt.'s have been treasonous against me , considering the current amount of taxes , property tax , social security , medicare , medicaid , Federal , State and county tax , the three gas taxes , sales tax on farm seeds , sales tax on utilities , drivers license fees , license plate fees ....

[Pericles]

It has been awhile , what is it they call them there ? Cantons ?

Switzerland has a real federal system, but like in the US, there is a tendency on the part of the socialists to make everything into a federal law, to usurp the powers of the Kantons.

In the US, I'm less than $250K in capital away form getting a freedom project started in a favorable location.

[oyarde]

Switzerland has a real federal system, but like in the US, there is a tendency on the part of the socialists to make everything into a federal law, to usurp the powers of the Kantons.

In the US, I'm less than $250K in capital away form getting a freedom project started in a favorable location. Outstanding .

[oyarde]

Switzerland has a real federal system, but like in the US, there is a tendency on the part of the socialists to make everything into a federal law, to usurp the powers of the Kantons.

In the US, I'm less than $250K in capital away form getting a freedom project started in a favorable location. Where where you from originally ? I am a Hoosier .

[Czolgosz]

Switzerland has a real federal system, but like in the US, there is a tendency on the part of the socialists to make everything into a federal law, to usurp the powers of the Kantons.

In the US, I'm less than $250K in capital away form getting a freedom project started in a favorable location.

Are you able to elaborate on your freedom project? Or perhaps provide some literature?

[oyarde]

I see my work here is already done. Work is never done .

[CaptainAmerica]

Secession is a right of free people.

[Pericles]

Where where you from originally ? I am a Hoosier .

I was born in a small town in Texas with a stop sign, a stop light, and a 4 way flasher. I grew up in a relative free country that no longer exists, and I'm working to get that back.

[Pericles]

Are you able to elaborate on your freedom project? Or perhaps provide some literature?

The plan is relatively simple, which is why there might be a chance of success. A county has been targeted which has a part time sheriff and no other law enforcement, a county wide school district with less than 50 students, a low population, no zoning laws, low property and other taxes as a result of low population, and no aquifier district, which under the laws of the state, do not restrict water wells.

Do a FSP in miniature, but the location is isolated (which makes it a good SHTF bug out location), so you move your residence there for voting and tax purposes and build your bug out place. Then we start on economic development that would eventually allow for full time residence and build an actual defendable community.

At the state level, ther is no income tax, a sales tax, which a barter system avoids, car registration @ about $50 per year, and controlling the county board controls tax rates on property. Depending on your profession, there may be some state licensing or regulations, but other than that you could be as free person as is possible in the US.

PM me for more specifics on the deal for those interested.

[jmdrake]

There is always 'free state' talk at RPF, with the idea that a current state population can be 'overpowered' by an influx of the Freedom-minded. But let's look at Texas, for instance...with a legislature composed of a 31-member Senate and a 150-member House of Representatives, wouldn't it be more plausible to get RPFer's in the majority, and then pass legislation that says, for instance, that all personal federal income tax must be sent through Austin? Nebraska has the smallest legislature at 49...only 30 souls are necessary to be veto-proof!

How would such a law be enforced when most transactions these days are electronic? On the other hand a state could easily enforce not forwarding income taxes form any state employees. Just hold the with-holdings.

[osan]

"The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force."
-James Buchanan

Buchanan had it right.


Article III section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

So a peaceful revolution is actually legal? :D

Depends on one's point of view. But in principle, secession is a peaceful process whereby the people of a state say they have had enough of the country club membership and choose to leave the union. There really is nothing the rest of the states can do about it, save to bring violence to bear, either openly or through passive aggressions against the land-locked states by closing borders and airspace in order to isolate them politically, economically, and materially. This, of course, is a gross violation of the sovereign rights of that state's individual human residents.

At such a point any material violence mounted by a seceded state against those waging war against them could not in all good reason be construed as treason, but rather only as self defense.

Yet there is another dimension to this. Imagine a state wanted to secede for the purposes of instituting an absolutely vicious authoritarian regime such as that of China, the Soviets, or even worse (can there be worse??). Do we now see this as legitimate, particularly if a significant proportion of the people there are not in agreement with such a move? What if their plans were to kill all the Negroes... or maybe all the Jews.... puppy dogs or kittens or whatever personally would outrage you the most? Perhaps NAMBLA instituting a state so they can buttfuck little boys. What then? Is a population's personal outrage sufficient reason to interfere?

I am trying to point out just how stupidly pointless and nonsensical these political subdivisions are. "states" and "nations".... all bullshit. Pure, utter bullshit. Freedom is the only answer for the human race that stands a snowball's chance in hell of preserving us into the future. Big Bro and Mustafa Mond will drive us ever deeper into a new dark age. Hell, they already have. Make no mistake about it folks, we are currently entering the second great dark age and the door is shutting quickly behind us. And it is like a great vault door. Thick. Heavy. Resistant to the torch and explosives. Once closed, we are going to have a hell of a time prying it open again and probably will not for many generations to come.

The funniest thing about all of this is that this is like the baggage people carry with them throughout life, weighing them down. It could end at any time if all they did was relax their hands and let them go. So it is with "government" and the phony baloney "authority" it claims to carry. If people simply stopped obeying, especially in the real bullshit areas like paying taxes, getting driver's licenses, smoking dope, contracting with ho's and so forth, what would "government" do, beside sit there and pound salt up its own asshole? Nothing. It would be unable. If every decent citizen drew a gun and pointed it a cop who was violating our fellows, cops would fall silent, quiescent, and fearful of us as they should be. If we shot the bastards every time they brought injury to one of us, they would learn to demur and would inevitably quit to do something more suited to their levels of intellect like being school janitors.

The human world is such a mess because people's minds are. Rotten thinking leads to rotten attitudes which leads to rotten action. The choices are in our hands but most of us do not want to take responsibility. Always let the other guy do the dirty work. Don't rock the boat. Escape notice. Blend in. These are the precepts and principles of the lazy and cowardly.

How is it that a guy walks out of a Walmart in NV, gets shot dead by the cops and all that the rest of the people there can do is stare on in stupefied amazement? Why did they not draw their own weapons and hold the police as suspects until the truth came out? That event nutshells much of what is wrong with the people of the United States. We have become complacent pussies just like the Euros and timid cowards like the Chinese, ever more ready to lick the boots of authority in the hopes of ingratiating themselves to the master in anticipation of a miserable crumb or two from his lavishly set table. It is disgusting.

I say do not bother with secession from the union, for the states are no better than the feds, but only marginally smaller implementations on the same tyrannic pattern. Secede from government! Just stop cooperating. Give them nothing. Force them to become ever more brazen and to work ever more hard to take from you that to which they hold not title. Ahow them your ass and bid them kiss it... if you allow them even that much honor.

Believe it or not, a return to feudalism may be the best interim solution we have. Community feudalism at perhaps the county level where the local governments tell the state to fuck off and by extension the same to the feds. Well armed communities ready and willing to slaughter all who presume authority over free and sovereign people. Kill enough of them and they will back off if it comes to that, but in the meanwhile, starve them out through a refusal to participate in the came and refusal to comply with their ridiculous and unjust mandates. Bottom up is the only way because there are not nearly enough at the top to affect change from yon dizzying heights.

[James Madison]

No. The states created the federal government and reserve the right to withdraw from the union.

[Voluntary Man]

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- a right, which we hope and belive, is to liberate the world-- Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it-- Any portion of the such people of an existing government that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the teritory as they inhabit-- More than this, a majority of any portion of the such people of an existing government, -- may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement-- Such minority, was precisely the case, of the tories of our own revolution-- It is not the qual a quality of revolutions, not to go by old lines, or old laws; but to break up both, and make new ones."[Congressman Abe Lincoln of IL 1848]

[PaulineDisciple]

In our current situation, non-sucession is treason.

[TheTexan]

If secession is treason, then call me a traitor.

[Czolgosz]

Depends on one's point of view. But in principle, secession is a peaceful process whereby the people of a state say they have had enough of the country club membership and choose to leave the union. There really is nothing the rest of the states can do about it, save to bring violence to bear, either openly or through passive aggressions against the land-locked states by closing borders and airspace in order to isolate them politically, economically, and materially. This, of course, is a gross violation of the sovereign rights of that state's individual human residents.

At such a point any material violence mounted by a seceded state against those waging war against them could not in all good reason be construed as treason, but rather only as self defense.

<omitted to save 010101's>

Believe it or not, a return to feudalism may be the best interim solution we have. Community feudalism at perhaps the county level where the local governments tell the state to fuck off and by extension the same to the feds. Well armed communities ready and willing to slaughter all who presume authority over free and sovereign people. Kill enough of them and they will back off if it comes to that, but in the meanwhile, starve them out through a refusal to participate in the came and refusal to comply with their ridiculous and unjust mandates. Bottom up is the only way because there are not nearly enough at the top to affect change from yon dizzying heights.


Excellent thoughts, I share much of your perspective.


It's time for action. Hell, it was time for action ~100 years ago when the fed began implementing absolutely insane crap (ssn, birth certificate, federal reserve, etc.). Generations have passed and none have fought it.

The problem many people have is that they'll be picked off one by one as they resist. Their lives burnt to the ground by this government's thugs. They will be nothing more than a footnote on a forum or an article in the paper denigrating the person as a criminal (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter). Why bother?

Together, we can rebuild a community and defend it. A well detailed plan built from the many experts at our fingertips could be created and acted upon. Let's find a core team of doers and get it done. Don't let another generation pass.

[osan]

Excellent thoughts, I share much of your perspective.


It's time for action. Hell, it was time for action ~100 years ago when the fed began implementing absolutely insane crap (ssn, birth certificate, federal reserve, etc.). Generations have passed and none have fought it.

The problem many people have is that they'll be picked off one by one as they resist. Their lives burnt to the ground by this government's thugs. They will be nothing more than a footnote on a forum or an article in the paper denigrating the person as a criminal (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter). Why bother?

Together, we can rebuild a community and defend it. A well detailed plan built from the many experts at our fingertips could be created and acted upon. Let's find a core team of doers and get it done. Don't let another generation pass.

Could there be a movement here? The Free Counties of America? We are certainly well enough armed, but are we resolved? I am thinking the FSP is too high-level to act alone. What if they got "help" on a broader, county by county basis? Elect sheriffs dedicated to freedom and from there work our way through the municipal governments. Those of the parasitic collectivist bent would be not only free, but most welcome to pack up and leave if they feel put upon by the expectations of freedom. Perhaps the next county over will offer them the soviet paradise for which they yearn. All I can say is that things are gone way off the rails and I for one am sick and friggin' tired of it. Seriously. Anyone up for brainstorming?

[Czolgosz]

Could there be a movement here? The Free Counties of America? We are certainly well enough armed, but are we resolved? I am thinking the FSP is too high-level to act alone. What if they got "help" on a broader, county by county basis? Elect sheriffs dedicated to freedom and from there work our way through the municipal governments. Those of the parasitic collectivist bent would be not only free, but most welcome to pack up and leave if they feel put upon by the expectations of freedom. Perhaps the next county over will offer them the soviet paradise for which they yearn. All I can say is that things are gone way off the rails and I for one am sick and friggin' tired of it. Seriously. Anyone up for brainstorming?

There are 4 of us in this thread alone, who, by previous comments I've read, are supportive of this type of initiative. In a country of ~350 million people (and plenty of "anti government" web sites) and support for Constitutional principles seemingly on the rise, we should be able to find a large number of participants.

We could use some good brainstorming sessions and strong leadership.

[osan]

There are 4 of us in this thread alone, who, by previous comments I've read, are supportive of this type of initiative. In a country of ~350 million people (and plenty of "anti government" web sites) and support for Constitutional principles seemingly on the rise, we should be able to find a large number of participants.

We could use some good brainstorming sessions and strong leadership.

Well, I am always up for some creative mischief, though I would prefer to start in a thread because I know how these things end up more often than not. A bunch of us were going to start a PAC to help RP get elected 2012. Either I was the only person serious about it or I missed a crucial memo because it dropped off the radar from one second to the next and nobody, not a single soul, would answer my "what's going on?" query. So even in this I found people to be all talk. So I'm not in a big mood to sit in on teleconferences nor secure outside commitment as I have until I would know the folks around me are serious and will act. I am not the type to get on a soap box in town and go off on my own like the local crazy person either, if you know what I mean.

So if you guys are interested in casually skying county-up resistance, I am all for it.

[WilliamC]

The plan is relatively simple, which is why there might be a chance of success. A county has been targeted which has a part time sheriff and no other law enforcement, a county wide school district with less than 50 students, a low population, no zoning laws, low property and other taxes as a result of low population, and no aquifier district, which under the laws of the state, do not restrict water wells.

Do a FSP in miniature, but the location is isolated (which makes it a good SHTF bug out location), so you move your residence there for voting and tax purposes and build your bug out place. Then we start on economic development that would eventually allow for full time residence and build an actual defendable community.

At the state level, ther is no income tax, a sales tax, which a barter system avoids, car registration @ about $50 per year, and controlling the county board controls tax rates on property. Depending on your profession, there may be some state licensing or regulations, but other than that you could be as free person as is possible in the US.

PM me for more specifics on the deal for those interested.

Sounds like Nevada.

[Pericles]

Sounds like Nevada.

A good bit of the "Rocky Mountain Redoubt" would probably qualify as worth considering. I'll copy some of the info about the effort into a new thread in Freedom Living.

[TheTexan]

To answer the original question: no.