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Anti Federalist
03-06-2012, 11:28 PM
Do I even need to say it?


Family says deputies shot man through closed door

Mark Anthony Trujillo was unarmed and awaiting an ambulance, according to a claim filed by an attorney

http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/perris/perris-headlines-index/20120302-perris-family-says-deputies-shot-man-through-closed-door.ece

BY SARAH BURGE

Published: 02 March 2012 07:03 PM

The family of a 23-year-old Perris man fatally shot by deputies in December has filed a claim against Riverside County alleging misconduct, the family’s lawyer said.

The claim alleges that Mark Anthony Trujillo was unarmed when deputies shot him, without warning, through a closed bathroom door in his parents’ mobile home.

“At no time during the course of these events did Mr. Trujillo pose any reasonable threat of violence to the (deputies), nor did he do anything to justify the force used against him,” according to a copy of the claim, dated Feb. 29 and provided by Jamon Hicks of The Cochran Firm in Los Angeles.

The claim also alleges the deputies were negligently trained and “had known propensities for acting in the fashion that they did.”

Sheriff’s officials have not released the names of the deputies involved in the shooting.

Sheriff’s spokesman Sgt. Joe Borja said Friday that the department stands by its original statement that deputies fired when Trujillo charged at them with a knife.

The county will have 45 days to respond to the claim. Assuming it is rejected, Hicks said, he plans to file a lawsuit.

Prior to the Dec. 29 shooting at the family’s 350 E. San Jacinto Ave. mobile home, sheriff’s officials said, Trujillo’s father had called 911. The man said his son had attempted suicide by cutting himself and that the father had convinced him to relinquish the knife, sheriff’s officials said.

But when deputies arrived about 10 minutes later, they found Trujillo armed with a kitchen knife, sheriff’s officials said. Trujillo refused to drop the weapon and struck one of the deputies, they said.

Sheriff’s officials said the deputies used a Taser on Trujillo but it failed to subdue him. The deputies backed away and opened fire when Trujillo charged at them with the knife, sheriff’s officials said.

Hicks said Trujillo was unarmed. Hicks said he went into the bathroom after deputies arrived, closing and locking the door.

Though the entire door was not in view, Trujillo’s parents, Godfrey and Silvia Trujillo, could see that it was still closed when they heard the shots, Hicks said.

Hicks said the family, particularly the oldest of Mark Trujillo’s two sons, is struggling with his death.

“There’s a lot of pain. A lot of grief,” Hicks said. “Like any family, they want answers.”

“The one thing that’s really, really, sad is that they were calling the police to come help him,” Hicks said.

Instead, the call ended in tragedy, he said.

After the shooting, Trujillo’s relatives said he had been having problems with his girlfriend and had been jailed after a fight with her. Trujillo was released before Christmas but the girlfriend would not allow him to see their children and he became despondent, the family said.

Riverside County Superior Court records show Trujillo was arrested Nov. 22 and pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. He was released from jail Dec. 22.

The family said Silvia Trujillo discovered her son Dec. 29 bleeding from a self-inflicted cut to his neck. Mark Trujillo told his mother he had tried to kill himself but regretted what he had done and asked her to call for medical aid, the family said. When deputies arrived, he feared they would take him back to jail, the family said.

“He didn’t want to die,” Trujillo’s brother-in-law, Gerardo Salazar, said at the time. “He wanted help. He wanted an ambulance.”

TheNewYorker
03-06-2012, 11:47 PM
Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.

jwhitmore
03-07-2012, 01:02 AM
LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.

It is JUST as foolish to blindly accept the family's side as it is to blindly accept the olice's side.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 01:08 AM
LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.

It is JUST as foolish to blindly accept the family's side as it is to blindly accept the olice's side.

Oh lord, here we go...

NidStyles
03-07-2012, 01:11 AM
I say hang'em. The standards for Police should be higher than that of shaky security guards with flashlights. That firearm should never come unholstered unless the threat is apparent and obvious.





LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.

It is JUST as foolish to blindly accept the family's side as it is to blindly accept the olice's side.

I'll take your advice once you learn to type proper English.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 01:14 AM
LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.

It is JUST as foolish to blindly accept the family's side as it is to blindly accept the olice's side.

From another thread:




I post these stories to make a two fold point:

A - To catalog our descent into tyranny, and to compare that to past regimes, as a cautionary tale.

B - To help keep people alive.

An encounter with today's hyperaggresive and militarized LE can go sideways in a second and leave you, a loved one, or a family pet as dead as Julius Caesar.

Therefore my consistent message has always been and will remain to be, do not call cops, do not speak to cops, and as much as possible limit your contact with cops.

QuickZ06
03-07-2012, 01:19 AM
Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.

Wow man, I am very sorry you had to go threw all that.

QuickZ06
03-07-2012, 01:20 AM
I'll take your advice once you learn to type proper English.

:toady:

QuickZ06
03-07-2012, 01:21 AM
LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.

It is JUST as foolish to blindly accept the family's side as it is to blindly accept the olice's side.

AF will be reporting a story about you in the near future I can see.....................GL with the "good guys".

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 01:28 AM
Be thankful they didn't "help" by blowing either one of your heads off.

Cautionary tale that should be taken to heart by everybody.


Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.

azxd
03-07-2012, 01:37 AM
More unsubstantiated bullshit and one sided finger pointing.

Condemn all law enforcement seems to be the goal.

noneedtoaggress
03-07-2012, 01:38 AM
Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.

Wow that's a load of bullshit.

noneedtoaggress
03-07-2012, 01:42 AM
More unsubstantiated bullshit and one sided finger pointing.

Condemn all law enforcement seems to be the goal.


http://mises.org//store/Assets/ProductImages/SS486.jpg

The Production of Security - Gustav de Molinari (http://mises.org/daily/20882)

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 01:50 AM
More unsubstantiated bullshit and one sided finger pointing.

Condemn all law enforcement seems to be the goal.

Two eyewitnesses is "unsubstantiated bullshit"?

But the cop's word is golden?

You're taking this personally now.

Let me guess:

Cop?

Friend of cop?

Family of cop?

azxd
03-07-2012, 02:03 AM
Two eyewitnesses is "unsubstantiated bullshit"?

But the cop's word is golden?

You're taking this personally now.

Let me guess:

Cop?

Friend of cop?

Family of cop?
Guilty until proven innocent is your motto.

And the only one taking things personal is the one defending a one sided story of condemnation, just like you do everyday.

Your posting style reminds me a broken record :D

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 02:07 AM
The claim alleges that Mark Anthony Trujillo was unarmed when deputies shot him, without warning, through a closed bathroom door in his parents’ mobile home.

That's unacceptable.


Sheriff’s officials said the deputies used a Taser on Trujillo but it failed to subdue him. The deputies backed away and opened fire when Trujillo charged at them with the knife, sheriff’s officials said.

Oh, he was coming straight for them? It's cool now. I 100% believe this story.

He's coming right for us!!!

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/149674/its-coming-right-for-us

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 02:17 AM
Guilty until proven innocent is your motto.

And the only one taking things personal is the one defending a one sided story of condemnation, just like you do everyday.

Your posting style reminds me a broken record :D

We don't know if it really did happen the way the cops describe it. Maybe this guy really was coming at them with a knife and was trying to kill them. Maybe the father is making it up and lying about shooting through a closed door just to get some cash.

But we do know that police abuse is a systemic problem. We do know that cops make criminal mistakes on a regular basis, and we do know they shoot innocent people on a regular basis. We also know that when cops do make mistakes, they lie about it.

You say this cop may be innocent. I agree with you. We're saying this cop may be guilty. However, we will likely never know, because there will be no investigation. No criminal trial. Zero accountability.

If cops were trustworthy, I may be willing to believe they acted in self defense here*. But they have earned zero trust, so I will always take the side of the individual versus the side of the cop.

*except that police shouldn't exist. period.

aGameOfThrones
03-07-2012, 06:10 AM
Combat Qual (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?363616-WA-Cop-guns-down-distressed-man-quot-no-sweat-here-...-bad-guy-should-have-listened-quot&highlight=Combat+qual)

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 07:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBVkOW3psQU

specsaregood
03-07-2012, 07:59 AM
Your posting style reminds me a broken record :D

What is really sad about that is that AF keeps posting articles about DIFFERENT incidents. It only sounds like a broken record because you aren't actually listening.

tod evans
03-07-2012, 08:10 AM
Oh.......I understand now, it was county cops.

Silly people should have called the feds......or maybe just more training/funding is in order?

Let's allocate enough FRN's to these poor officers so they can send in robots or drones and never have to fear for their lives.

Better yet cameras.........yeah cameras for every dwelling that's the answer!

Geeze! Poor kid.

Philhelm
03-07-2012, 08:22 AM
If cops were trustworthy, I may be willing to believe they acted in self defense here*. But they have earned zero trust, so I will always take the side of the individual versus the side of the cop.

Exactly. The trust is beyond broken as far as I'm concerned.

jkr
03-07-2012, 08:40 AM
Guilty until proven innocent is your motto.

And the only one taking things personal is the one defending a one sided story of condemnation, just like you do everyday.

Your posting style reminds me a broken record :D


and you sound like a cold blooded killer-maybe you should join the cops, they get to kill ALL THE TIME

azxd
03-07-2012, 08:45 AM
What is really sad about that is that AF keeps posting articles about DIFFERENT incidents. It only sounds like a broken record because you aren't actually listening.
And how does an outsider, new to this forum view the daily cop bash that always occurs because of the broken record ?
Some of them jump on the band wagon, and others decide Romney is the better candidate, because Ron Paul supporters hate cops ... Very smart way to drive support away.

azxd
03-07-2012, 08:46 AM
and you sound like a cold blooded killer-maybe you should join the cops, they get to kill ALL THE TIME
And then you have people who go into insat attack mode, because they can't formulate anything better.

Some sad, some just mad.

specsaregood
03-07-2012, 08:52 AM
And how does an outsider, new to this forum view the daily cop bash that always occurs because of the broken record ?
Some of them jump on the band wagon, and others decide Romney is the better candidate, because Ron Paul supporters hate cops ... Very smart way to drive support away.

Funny, i have bunch of inlaws in various law enforcement. I talk to them about this stuff and they tend to side with AF's viewpoint.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 09:05 AM
And then you have people who go into insat attack mode, because they can't formulate anything better.


It is NOT instant attack mode.
it is YEARS of observation, and multiple stories on a weekly basis for years.

A pattern of behavior. Observed, analyzed and reported.

And a conclusion drawn based on overwhelming evidence.

Police should NOT EXIST. The very concept of police should not exist in a free society.
They need to be disbanded and Not replaced.

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 09:10 AM
More unsubstantiated bullshit and one sided finger pointing.

Condemn all law enforcement seems to be the goal.Their job is not to kill people. Really it's not. That's not in their job description.

azxd
03-07-2012, 09:37 AM
Their job is not to kill people. Really it's not. That's not in their job description.
And ours is not to condemn by association.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 09:40 AM
And ours is not to condemn by association.

Yup,, I'm sure many of the SS and Camp Guards were really nice folks,, just doing their jobs.
:rolleyes:

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 09:40 AM
And ours is not to condemn by association.
Killing people is wrong. In America we have the right to due process of law. I condemn killers who deprive others of their right to life. As far as I'm concerned that is our job.

Jeremy
03-07-2012, 09:40 AM
Two contradicting sides of the story. I'm not willing to jump to conclusions.

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 09:44 AM
Two contradicting sides of the story. I'm not willing to jump to conclusions.
Still, will it make you think twice before calling 911 for help?

Expatriate
03-07-2012, 10:00 AM
People would look at this very differently if the parents called the neighbors to help their son and they ended up shooting him to death.

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:01 AM
Yup,, I'm sure many of the SS and Camp Guards were really nice folks,, just doing their jobs.
:rolleyes:
Prejudice much.

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:03 AM
Two contradicting sides of the story. I'm not willing to jump to conclusions.
But that's what this thread is for ... Jumping to conclusions and condemning others without facts.

seraphson
03-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.


Since when does a cop have the power to submit others to his will through these so called "commands"?
Sorry officer, you don't command anything. You hand out tickets to help pay your own check. That is all.
Also, in hindsight, do you think it would have been cheaper to have her go to jail?

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 10:07 AM
But that's what this thread is for ... Jumping to conclusions and condemning others without facts.

Will it make you think twice before calling 911 for help?

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 10:16 AM
People would look at this very differently if the parents called the neighbors to help their son and they ended up shooting him to death.

Very differently indeed. It is not the job of the neighbor to kill people even if they are wearing a uniform. It is not the cop's job either. Right to life and due process of law are fundamental rights.

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:19 AM
Will it make you think twice before calling 911 for help?
NOPE !!

Especially with an out of control kid/adult ... Heck, if warranted, I'd take the shot and deal with the result of my decision.

About the best a 911 operator is going to get is a statement that I have a gun and am prepared to defend myself ... Then the phone would become my witness.

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:20 AM
Very differently indeed. It is not the job of the neighbor to kill people even if they are wearing a uniform. It is not the cop's job either. Right to life and due process of law are fundamental rights.
So is defending one's self.

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 10:23 AM
So is defending one's self.
Do you think the cop should stand trial?

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:34 AM
Do you think the cop should stand trial?Any death should be investigated by an impartial source, and if warranted, a trial should be pursued.

The key aspect is impartiality.

I know this often times does not happen, but that is a problem with the system, not the individuals within the system.

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 10:46 AM
Any death should be investigated by an impartial source, and if warranted, a trial should be pursued.

The key aspect is impartiality.

I know this often times does not happen, but that is a problem with the system, not the individuals within the system.
That's it right there. The individuals within the system know they are not subject to independent investigation. They are protected by the unconstitutional illegitimate system of the police state. They know they can get away with murder. And they do. The Constitution does not allow for special privilege. The people have to enforce the Constitution to stop the madness. A Common Law Grand Jury (http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/grandjuryrules.htm) should investigate.

azxd
03-07-2012, 10:50 AM
That's it right there. The individuals within the system know they are not subject to independent investigation. They are protected by the unconstitutional illegitimate system of the police state. They know they can get away with murder. And they do. The Constitution does not allow for special privilege. The people have to enforce the Constitution to stop the madness. A Common Law Grand Jury (http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/grandjuryrules.htm) should investigate.
Yet a corrupt system does not a corrupt man make.

If this is not true, then Paul must be corrupt, and I do not believe that is the reality.

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 11:24 AM
Azxd, noone here is saying the cop is guilty. we're simply asking for a trial that we're never going to get

azxd
03-07-2012, 11:32 AM
Azxd, noone here is saying the cop is guilty. we're simply asking for a trial that we're never going to getAnd how many have applied with their local police academy ?

Fighting from within is much better than bitching from the outside ... YES ?

thoughtomator
03-07-2012, 11:34 AM
If you want to murder a family member, just call the cops and let them do it.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Azxd, noone here is saying the cop is guilty. we're simply asking for a trial that we're never going to get
Hell, an honest investigation. That in itself is pretty damn rare.
It too years of outcry to get the cops in NO to trial,,and a huge public outcry over the Grandmother in Atlanta that was murdered by police.

And they still got light sentences at the end of the day,, many of those involved got away with it still.

tttppp
03-07-2012, 11:38 AM
Never call 911! I found out first hand like this man that it's a trap.

2 years ago my wife and I had an argument. I came home from work to find her in bed passed out and an open bottle of pills that were empty. Fearing she was trying to kill herself I dialed 911. The police came, questioned me, woke her up, etc. They wouldn't even let paramedics help her or touch her until they finished their investigation and make sure the drugs that she took were prescribed to her ( they were hoping to charge her with felony of taking medication not prescribed to her.) Finally paramedics ran some tests and stuff, determined she was fine. She suffers from chronic back pain and was having a bad day, so took muscle relaxers (appropriate amount) which cause drowsiness and she fell asleep. I just panicked and feared the worse, and overreacted. But it gets better! Even though she was clearly fine and responsive and passed all of the paramedics tests, the police ORDERED the paramedics (against their advice) to bring her to the hospital and hold her against her will incase she really was trying to commit suicide (even though it had already been determined she wasn't.) They told me it was protocol. Furthermore, I was not allowed to drive her there myself, they told us it was mandatory she had to be brought there in an ambulance and if she refused she would be taken to jail and held for refusing to obey a lawful command, and if I objected I would also be held. So off she went in the stupid ambulance, with lights a flashing like it was some medical emergency (I'm sure if they use the lights and sirens they charge more on the bill.)

The doctors at the stupid hospital give her advice to divorce me http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif because I'm an evil man that brought this all about because I don't treat her right and she was depressed. The only thing at this point that she was depressed about was the fact she had to stay at the stupid hospital and be monitored in a secure area by quacks.

Fast forward a week later, my wife without insurance is still pissed at me, and she gets mailed a $700 ambulance bill in the mail and a $1,000 hospital bill.

This country is all about extortion.

Welcome to the police state.

I was charged about $1,000 for a 5 minute ambulance ride without the sirens. Thats only over $10,000 an hour. They are not in any way ripping you off. I won't even get into the crap they pull at the hospital.

azxd
03-07-2012, 11:40 AM
Hell, an honest investigation. That in itself is pretty damn rare.
It too years of outcry to get the cops in NO to trial,,and a huge public outcry over the Grandmother in Atlanta that was murdered by police.

And they still got light sentences at the end of the day,, many of those involved got away with it still.
So join up, work from within, and stop being an outside condemnation advocate.

The system needs more Frank Serpico's and Ron Paul's ... What it doesn't need is a bunch of babies who complain about perceived injustice without knowing the facts.

Expert witness = Cops word against Cops word ... YES ?

The Other Andy
03-07-2012, 11:54 AM
They say the door was closed and police shot through it. Wouldn't it be particularly easy to check the door for bullet holes? That would discredit the police story, as how would they have known he was charging him if the door was closed? Unless I'm missing something here? I'd think a few pictures of the door with bullet holes sent to the various media outlets would be a quick way to prompt an investigation.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 11:58 AM
So join up, work from within, and stop being an outside condemnation advocate.

The system needs more Frank Serpico's and Ron Paul's ... What it doesn't need is a bunch of babies who complain about perceived injustice without knowing the facts.

Expert witness = Cops word against Cops word ... YES ?

First,, i would not be hired,,for two very important reasons.
I have a past criminal history.
I have an IQ higher than the cut off limit.

I would rather work to see police department de-funded, Reduced and eventually eliminated.

Have you read the link I had provided,,, ??
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ "textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation. Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles.

specsaregood
03-07-2012, 11:58 AM
So join up, work from within, and stop being an outside condemnation advocate.
The system needs more Frank Serpico's and Ron Paul's ... What it doesn't need is a bunch of babies who complain about perceived injustice without knowing the facts.
Expert witness = Cops word against Cops word ... YES ?

Just make sure to flunk the IQ test so they might actually hire you.

KMX
03-07-2012, 11:59 AM
For Chronic pain she needs real natural medication. It's called Cannabis Sativa. The pills she is taking is only slowly killing her.

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 12:04 PM
So join up, work from within, and stop being an outside condemnation advocate.

The system needs more Frank Serpico's and Ron Paul's ... What it doesn't need is a bunch of babies who complain about perceived injustice without knowing the facts.

Expert witness = Cops word against Cops word ... YES ?

Terrible idea. Once you start narcing on cops, you'll either be fired outright for some made-up reason, or you'll be relegated to traffic duty

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2phsepx11xQ/TMjhlzDdoBI/AAAAAAAABds/9AfVbS_0OUg/s320/traffic_cop_seven.jpg

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:07 PM
First,, i would not be hired,,for two very important reasons.
I have a past criminal history.
I have an IQ higher than the cut off limit.

I would rather work to see police department de-funded, Reduced and eventually eliminated.

Have you read the link I had provided,,, ??
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm (http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm[/QUOTE]Obamanomics)

Obamanomics is doing that for you.

And I'll leave your past alone ... Unless you see it as relevant.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Terrible idea. Once you start narcing on cops, you'll either be fired outright for some made-up reason, or you'll be relegated to traffic duty

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2phsepx11xQ/TMjhlzDdoBI/AAAAAAAABds/9AfVbS_0OUg/s320/traffic_cop_seven.jpg
Tell that to those who are working within the system to make it better, and you might just get a few of them to give up ;)

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 12:11 PM
Tell that to those who are working within the system to make it better, and you might just get a few of them to give up ;)

That's fine with me. The system itself is broken. There's only two paths to fixing it: letting it get out of control to the point of public outrage, or secession.

Besides, the few 'good cops' there aren't there just to narc on cops. They are there to protect & serve. You're suggesting that we join LE just to narc, which as I pointed out, will work only once, then you become that guy in photo ^

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:11 PM
Have you read the link I had provided,,, ??
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
I have said before that it is the responsibility of each individual to provide for their own protection, yet your reference does in fact say the Framers saw a need for some form of LE, so your idea of elimination goes against what the Framers perceived society needing.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:13 PM
That's fine with me. The system itself is broken. There's only two paths to fixing it: letting it get out of control to the point of public outrage, or secession.

Besides, the few 'good cops' there aren't there just to narc on cops. They are there to protect & serve. You're suggesting that we join LE just to narc, which as I pointed out, will work only once, then you become that guy in photo ^
You can run, or stand your ground ... I prefer those who stand their ground and fight for what is perceived to be right, and will not support the chicken shit who is easily convinced their conviction to good is futile.

Travlyr
03-07-2012, 12:13 PM
I have said before that it is the responsibility of each individual to provide for their own protection, yet your reference does in fact say the Framers saw a need for some form of LE, so your idea of elimination goes against what the Framers perceived society needing.

I don't think the framers envisioned hiring police to kill people.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:14 PM
Obamanomics"
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Obamanomics is doing that for you.

And I'll leave your past alone ... Unless you see it as relevant.

My past is quite educational,, it has been for me.

And I do know the difference between the "Good" and "Bad".
I have stared down the barrels of a lot of guns.
I have never resisted arrest.
And the only times I was ever arrested for an actual crime ,, NOT ONE GUN WAS DRAWN.

I have had guns shoved in my face for no good reason at all several times though.

I have experience with both sides of that coin,, and am old enough to see and recognize the changes over the years.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:15 PM
I don't think the framers envisioned hiring police to kill people.A slippery slope that aligns with the idea that the Framers did not envision modern day weaponry.

AFPVet
03-07-2012, 12:15 PM
HOLD ON... they fired through the door? They violated a firearm safety rule in order to shoot someone without subject ID or reasonable belief that he had a weapon? Umm... it sounds like the police no longer want to get help for people, but oblige their suicide wishes.... AF have said this so many times... do not call the police! I have said this once before... LEO's are not peace officers anymore. They are hiring idiots, PTSD stricken people, drug abusers.... The good guys are gone—minus a handful*.

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 12:17 PM
You can run, or stand your ground ... I prefer those who stand their ground and fight for what is perceived to be right.

That's a flawed argument against secession. This is because the people of this forum generally have significant & irreconcilable differences with the rest of the country. To force our version of freedom upon them is just as wrong as them forcing their version of 'freedom' on us. They are perfectly happy with the way things are and would not see it changed. We have done our due diligence to educate them in the ways of freedom; they have received the memo, and thrown it away. They don't want it.

Secession please.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 12:17 PM
Guilty until proven innocent is your motto.

And the only one taking things personal is the one defending a one sided story of condemnation, just like you do everyday.

Your posting style reminds me a broken record :D

I am not trying to determine guilt or innocence.

As I have said before numerous times, this is not Mayberry anymore, the training, attitudes and outlook of law enforcement has changed dramatically in the last 20 to 30 years. This is not a matter of opinion, conjecture or hyperbole, this is matter of documented fact, from the MIAC report, to DHS reports, to my own small hometown adopting a "circular force continuum" as a matter of public, documented record at the behest of the legal department of the town and the Fed Fusion Center in Concord. This has been posted, confirmed and discussed, at length, on here.

We, the citizens that cops are supposedly sworn to "Protect and Serve", are increasingly viewed as "hostiles" to be "taken out" or neutralized the second there is anything that can be perceived to be, or justified after the fact, as a "threat to officer safety".

I am trying to save people's lives, by making certain that people understand that by calling cops into a situation, they are taking a very, very real risk that they, or somebody they love, will end up dead or incarcerated into the largest prison system on the face of the earth.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:17 PM
My past is quite educational,, it has been for me.

And I do know the difference between the "Good" and "Bad".
I have stared down the barrels of a lot of guns.
I have never resisted arrest.
And the only times I was ever arrested for an actual crime ,, NOT ONE GUN WAS DRAWN.

I have had guns shoved in my face for no good reason at all several times though.

I have experience with both sides of that coin,, and am old enough to see and recognize the changes over the years.
We obviously have very different backrounds, and because of this, even as I see how things have changed ... I allow for benefit of doubt.
You don't seem to be willing to do that.

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 12:18 PM
HOLD ON... they fired through the door?

They allegedly fired through the door. Of course, ballistics can prove this, if there were an honest investigation. Which there won't be.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:19 PM
I have said before that it is the responsibility of each individual to provide for their own protection, yet your reference does in fact say the Framers saw a need for some form of LE, so your idea of elimination goes against what the Framers perceived society needing.

You very obviously did not even bother to read it,, or you have serious comprehension difficulties.

I have never said that there was no need for Law enforcement.
I said there is no need for police.

one does not equal the other.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:20 PM
They allegedly fired through the door. Of course, ballistics can prove this, if there were an honest investigation. Which there won't be.

Like several other doors,, it will likely be taken for evidence and then disappear.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 12:23 PM
Like several other doors,, it will likely be taken for evidence and then disappear.

Front doors of the Waco church?

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:26 PM
A slippery slope that aligns with the idea that the Framers did not envision modern day weaponry.

No,
they adamantly warned and cautioned against disarmament and recommended that all men be armed at all times to prevent this bullshit.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:27 PM
I am not trying to determine guilt or innocence.

As I have said before numerous times, this is not Mayberry anymore, the training, attitudes and outlook of law enforcement has changed dramatically in the last 20 to 30 years. This is not a matter of opinion, conjecture or hyperbole, this is matter of documented fact, from the MIAC report, to DHS reports, to my own small hometown adopting a "circular force continuum" as matter of public, documented record at the behest of the legal department of the town and the Fed Fusion Center in Concord. This has been posted, confirmed and discussed, at length, on here.

We, the citizens that cops are supposedly sworn to "Protect and Serve", are increasingly viewed as "hostiles" to be "taken out" or neutralized the second there is anything that can be perceived to be, or justified after the fact, as a "threat to officer safety".

I am trying to save people's lives, by making certain that people understand that by calling cops into a situation, they are taking a very, very real risk that they, or somebody they love, will end up dead or incarcerated into the largest prison system on the face of the earth.
Understood, and my battle is not with you personally ... But the daily cry of police brutality is kind of obvious, and there is nothing in this thread except a one-sided story from a lawyer who seeks monetary compensation for their services, so of course the story will include bias, and people will run with it toward condemnation.

That's my problem with this stuff ... It's very one-sided, and allows people to develop conclusions and reinforce biases that are based on nothing more than suspicion of guilt.

Sure the system needs to change, but I can only read some many times that all LE is bad, before I decide to defend the right to fairness and equality.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:27 PM
Front doors of the Waco church?

Among others.. Removing evidence is as common as planting it.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:28 PM
Like several other doors,, it will likely be taken for evidence and then disappear.YES, because all are guilty in your eyes.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:29 PM
No,
they adamantly warned and cautioned against disarmament and recommended that all men be armed at all times to prevent this bullshit.I'm covered ;)

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:30 PM
Among others.. Removing evidence is as common as planting it.More guilt by association with what nailed your butt in the past.
Do you not see your bias ?

HOLLYWOOD
03-07-2012, 12:31 PM
...Riverside County alleging misconductAmazing, when the state/gov does it, it's 'misconduct'. When the individual/citizen does it, it's MURDER and guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:32 PM
YES, because all are guilty in your eyes.

It has happened,, more than once..
just as planting evidence happens on a routine basis.

getting caught happens rarely,, but often enough to show the pattern.

HOLLYWOOD
03-07-2012, 12:34 PM
It has happened,, more than once..
just as planting evidence happens on a routine basis.

getting caught happens rarely, but often enough to show the pattern.This is what the state loved when the Supreme Court ruled you can charge anyone for anything found that may be part of an illegal act, even if it's not part of a search warrant, action, conduct, motive, whatever, etc etc... Don;t find anything... plant it!

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 12:35 PM
Sure the system needs to change, but I can only read some many times that all LE is bad, before I decide to defend the right to fairness and equality.

I'm not sure you do understand yet.

Again, I am not in the business of being fair, equitable or determining guilt or innocence.

The facts that I am concerned with, in this particular story, are not in dispute.

People in distress called 911 for help, not from a deranged criminal, but for medical help for an injured, semi suicidal son.

The direct result of that call was that armed men showed up and shot the man that people were trying to help, dead.

The training that resulted in that course of action is also not in dispute.

People can do whatever they want, I will continue to strongly caution them against ever calling or talking to law enforcement for any reason.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:37 PM
More guilt by association with what nailed your butt in the past.
Do you not see your bias ?

With what "nailed My Butt".
You are really flaunting ignorance here. You don't know me.. Do some research and pull up my records.

The search warrant in my case was not signed by a judge,, I signed it.
I signed a confession.. the only evidence against me.
I plead Guilty without a Plea Bargain.

I did my time.
I'm about the oddest thing you might ever meet. An Honest Outlaw.
I don't lie to myself,, so I have no reason to lie to others.

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:39 PM
It has happened,, more than once..
just as planting evidence happens on a routine basis.

getting caught happens rarely,, but often enough to show the pattern.
Yes and people of a different ethnic group commit crimes ... An obvious pattern :rolleyes:

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:42 PM
With what "nailed My Butt".
You are really flaunting ignorance here. You don't know me.. Do some research and pull up my records.

The search warrant in my case was not signed by a judge,, I signed it.
I signed a confession.. the only evidence against me.
I plead Guilty without a Plea Bargain.

I did my time.
I'm about the oddest thing you might ever meet. An Honest Outlaw.
I don't lie to myself,, so I have no reason to lie to others.Being as you are bringing yourself into this ... When do you get your rights back ?

azxd
03-07-2012, 12:43 PM
I'm not sure you do understand yet.

Again, I am not in the business of being fair, equitable or determining guilt or innocence.

The facts that I am concerned with, in this particular story, are not in dispute.

People in distress called 911 for help, not from a deranged criminal, but for medical help for an injured, semi suicidal son.

The direct result of that call, was that armed men showed up and shot the man that people were trying to help, dead.

The training that resulted in that course of action is also not in dispute.

People can do whatever they want, I will continue to strongly caution them against ever calling or talking to law enforcement for any reason.
Noted, and trying to understand.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:44 PM
Yes and people of a different ethnic group commit crimes .

:confused::confused:

Which ethnic group is "different"??

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 12:47 PM
Being as you are bringing yourself into this ... When do you get your rights back ?

You know,,, that is what brought me HERE.

allegedly,, they are/were restored. but no,, they're not.

azxd
03-07-2012, 01:00 PM
You know,,, that is what brought me HERE.

allegedly,, they are/were restored. but no,, they're not.There is a petition form that can be filed with the courts.
It must be presented to a Judge ... None of this stuff is as automatic as it seems.

I can ask around if you'd like, and provide any/all information to you via PM if you'd like.

IMO, if someone did time and has been released, they should have all of their rights restored, or not be released ... There is no in between.
And probation is bullshit ... If they are a danger don't let them out, if they're not considered a danger ... Restore everything !!!

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 01:21 PM
There is a petition form that can be filed with the courts.
It must be presented to a Judge ... None of this stuff is as automatic as it seems.

I can ask around if you'd like, and provide any/all information to you via PM if you'd like.

IMO, if someone did time and has been released, they should have all of their rights restored, or not be released ... There is no in between.
And probation is bullshit ... If they are a danger don't let them out, if they're not considered a danger ... Restore everything !!!

You are once again flaunting ignorance. Talking out your ass does not help.
Do you really think I have not researched this?

And the process is varied from state to state. But YES the Restoration of Rights was Automatic upon completion of sentence in the relevant states.

And yet I do NOT have my rights restored,, and due to that collected another Felony in this state.
I was charged with a firearm that I did not own and did not use in any crime at all.
Simply because it was hanging on a wall.

Now quit with the dumb shit,, I am trying to keep my anger in check.

azxd
03-07-2012, 01:27 PM
You are once again flaunting ignorance. Talking out your ass does not help.
Do you really think I have not researched this?

And the process is varied from state to state. But YES the Restoration of Rights was Automatic upon completion of sentence in the relevant states.

And yet I do NOT have my rights restored,, and due to that collected another Felony in this state.
I was charged with a firearm that I did not own and did not use in any crime at all.
Simply because it was hanging on a wall.

Now quit with the dumb shit,, I am trying to keep my anger in check.I never said anything about what you might have done, and sorry for pissing in your cheerios.

I offered to help, gave you the chance to switch this over to a PM where I expected to get a few details IF you wanted to provide them, but you want to get pissed and toss insults.

Your loss IF a few of my friends who teach Constitutional law are no longer available ... Perhaps even a lawyer who works this type of situation Pro Bono !!

Sorry.

Karsten
03-07-2012, 01:37 PM
LEt's not try to act like this is some little kid with the word "son" there. He was an old man that had a weapon. And hte family CLAIMS it was through the door.


23 is an old man? I'm 26 I must be elderly!

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 01:45 PM
I never said anything about what you might have done, and sorry for pissing in your cheerios.


Sorry.

My "details"have been on this forum and my blog for years.

Short of a Full Pardon there is no restoration of rights in reality.
Even with that it is likely I would be Banned from any jury duty still.

On paper my rights are restored,, I can vote or hold public office (like I could get elected),, Gun laws are so convoluted that I can not own firearms..and here that includes BB guns and airsoft (yes it really is that fucking stupid).

The old man that owns the local gun store (where I bought my first gun as a child) would love to sell me one if he could.
Gave me the ATF paperwork 5 years ago.
They refuse to recognize any restoration of rights. EVER.
It is never a COMPLETE restoration unless you can serve on a jury. And NO jury will allow that. EVER.
Therefor the Restoration is not complete..

Now if i had a $300K and some political pull it MAY be possible.
Or a Full Pardon.

tod evans
03-07-2012, 02:03 PM
I believe it's a pretty safe bet to make the statement that in 2012 more than 50% of Americans have a family member who has had some type of negative interaction with some type of "law".

Further, given the copious amount of legislation on the books, the number of "cops" on the street and the current economic climate I wouldn't be surprised to see the 50% guess increase.

There's no excuse for poor behavior by the cops, nor is there any excuse for those who cover it up.

Cops make a voluntary choice to be placed under public scrutiny when they hire on and if anything should be held to a higher standard of behavior than an average citizen.

noneedtoaggress
03-07-2012, 02:30 PM
From another thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?357608-Yet-again-file-under-don-t-call-the-cops.-quot-Autistic-Teen-Fatally-Shot-by-Police-at-Home-quot/page5&p=4129329#post4129329):


Such as? You guys are full of criticism but no solutions. I am not "brainwashed" about anything regarding the police, unlike most of you however I don't have a heart attack everytime I see one and, GASP, SIGH, I've actually talked to them, am friends with them, yes, even the guy who arrested me, crazy thing you'll find is they are people too, and the previous post you are agreeing with here is false, I did make a change in my own little part of the world, maybe if other's did the same we'd see a change on a broader scale.

I simply don't agree with you guys, you are correct on that, I feel there is a need for a police force, and although I've heard Ron criticize some police actions, as he should, I've yet to hear him mention anything about abolishing the police in America.


http://mises.org/daily/2088

It's not that the police "aren't people", or that they're all just rotten individuals. The problem is with the way law enforcement operates as an institution. Why do you "feel there is a need for a police force"? Why can't their services be handled by a free market? The police have no obligation to protect individuals, their obligation is to protect an abstract concept of "society", which effectively translates to threatening people with violence over the edicts of the state and necessarily involves invading rather than protecting individual rights. They are the government's army of mercenaries in the struggle to appropriate wealth from and to subjugate it's citizens to power and authority in the name of keeping them safe from themselves.

Those who would give up liberty for safety and all that... well we got neither.

From this thread:



http://mises.org//store/Assets/ProductImages/SS486.jpg

The Production of Security - Gustav de Molinari (http://mises.org/daily/2088)

But those who are critical of a socialist, monopolist police system or are critical of systemic problems and results it produces are just "delusional" (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?365036-Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-I-Spoke-with-Andrew-Breitbart-Shortly-Before-he-Died&p=4251863&viewfull=1#post4251863) bong-smoking cop-haters, whose hatred has blinded them to the truth (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?365036-Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-I-Spoke-with-Andrew-Breitbart-Shortly-Before-he-Died/page17&p=4251331#post4251331), right?

azxd
03-07-2012, 03:32 PM
My "details"have been on this forum and my blog for years.

Short of a Full Pardon there is no restoration of rights in reality.
Even with that it is likely I would be Banned from any jury duty still.

On paper my rights are restored,, I can vote or hold public office (like I could get elected),, Gun laws are so convoluted that I can not own firearms..and here that includes BB guns and airsoft (yes it really is that fucking stupid).

The old man that owns the local gun store (where I bought my first gun as a child) would love to sell me one if he could.
Gave me the ATF paperwork 5 years ago.
They refuse to recognize any restoration of rights. EVER.
It is never a COMPLETE restoration unless you can serve on a jury. And NO jury will allow that. EVER.
Therefor the Restoration is not complete..

Now if i had a $300K and some political pull it MAY be possible.
Or a Full Pardon.
vBulletin Messagepcosmar does not have a blog yet.


Link to blog, or something ... There are also ways to deal with expungement from ATF records.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 03:55 PM
Link to blog, or something ... There are also ways to deal with expungement from ATF records.

Pete is quite correct here.

Each state is different, but that does not matter, because it will still be illegal under FEDERAL law for a person convicted of a felony to possess firearms.

There are only three things that can restore firearms rights at a federal level:

Clemency or Pardon.

Full expungement.

Restoration civil rights, however, this may not allow possession under state law.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 03:59 PM
http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6303

1stAmendguy
03-07-2012, 04:06 PM
Law enforcement nowadays is being trained to consider American civilians terrorists. From the 2009 MIAC report to the indoctrination of Boy Scouts, this has been documented and the increasing power of executive force in government is a growing trend.

pcosmar
03-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Link to blog, or something ...

:rolleyes:
Jeeze,, let me Google that for ya.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pcosmar

But a pertinent entry
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2006/08/things-have-not-gone-well.html

And you may find this interesting as well,
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/employment-woes.html
and
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/update-background-check.html

They have been posted here before as I said.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2012, 05:28 PM
Law enforcement nowadays is being trained to consider American civilians terrorists. From the 2009 MIAC report to the indoctrination of Boy Scouts, this has been documented and the increasing power of executive force in government is a growing trend.

Yes, this

TheTexan
03-07-2012, 07:20 PM
Above all, cops are trained to protect their own life at all costs. When confronted with a potentially dangerous situation, cops have 3 options

1) Accept the risk to the cop's own life and go into the dangerous situation knowing what the consequences may be - "protect and serve"
2) Stay out of it until the cop can assess the situation and come up with a plan where no innocent people, including the cop, are hurt - "primum non nocere"
3) Go into the dangerous situation immediately, and put a bullet into anything remotely resembling a threat - "a strong offense is the best defense"

Option 1 is great. Option 2 is perfectly acceptable. However, cops overwhelmingly choose option 3.

There is of course the option 4) Quit their useless job

azxd
03-08-2012, 12:32 AM
:rolleyes:
Jeeze,, let me Google that for ya.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pcosmar

But a pertinent entry
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2006/08/things-have-not-gone-well.html

And you may find this interesting as well,
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/employment-woes.html
and
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/update-background-check.html

They have been posted here before as I said.
Well excuse me for not knowing where or what they are ... The forum and Internet are kind of big ;)

I spoke with someone this afterneen, but ... Give me a day or two now that I have some specifics.

Although I was already informed that it might be a difficult process, the individual didn't say such a thing was impossible.
We'll see after a bit of detail is added.

JK/SEA
03-08-2012, 12:43 AM
And ours is not to condemn by association.

One way around that is to start using all these remote drones we have to just drop a bomb. No one will know. Problem, solution, reaction....

next.

pcosmar
03-08-2012, 07:07 AM
Although I was already informed that it might be a difficult process, the individual didn't say such a thing was impossible.
We'll see after a bit of detail is added.

Well good luck,, I have already been through it,, and even the appeals process where it was dropped like a hot potato by several lawyers.
But go ahead,, I would love to be able to hunt my land and defend my home.

To this point the only reality of a chance is for Ron Paul to be elected and the ATF to be disbanded.
He is the only man I have seen that both understands and respects the 2nd Amendment.. (well, a couple since,, Gunny, Amash etc)

Oh,,by the way, The Shotgun I was arrested over (Stoeger Uplander) was a housewarming gift from a family member to my wife.
He was a retired LE,, and was sure it was 100% OK.

tod evans
03-08-2012, 07:43 AM
Any "felon" has the right to petition the court to have his right to bear arms restored.........BUT.......First thing you'll need is a form from the ATF stating they have no objections.

Get past that first hurdle before even looking at the next.

Ain't going to happen no matter how many "law professors" file petitions.

azxd
03-08-2012, 09:23 AM
Well good luck,, I have already been through it,, and even the appeals process where it was dropped like a hot potato by several lawyers.
But go ahead,, I would love to be able to hunt my land and defend my home.

To this point the only reality of a chance is for Ron Paul to be elected and the ATF to be disbanded.
He is the only man I have seen that both understands and respects the 2nd Amendment.. (well, a couple since,, Gunny, Amash etc)

Oh,,by the way, The Shotgun I was arrested over (Stoeger Uplander) was a housewarming gift from a family member to my wife.
He was a retired LE,, and was sure it was 100% OK.
I'll still ask ... But pleading guilty to attempted possession of a firearm without having things fully cleaned up IMO means you are correct about the ATF never reinstating your ability to legally own a firearm.
Especially when this is coupled with a domestic violence charge.
The DV, given time, might have been expunged, but attempted possession of a firearm by a felon ... You're probably right about that.
Spending a few hundred thousand most likely won't change a thing.

Concerning hunting your land, have you tried a bow, or perhaps requesting a statement from ATF that clarifies and specifically addresses you being able to possess a muzzle loader ... Technically AFAIK they do not consider those to be a firearm, anymore, due to the antiquates but still effective firing mechanism.
It's a loophole that you might be able to use ... But absolutely 1000% make sure you have a signed statement from ATF before considering such a purchase.

Also,
Thanks for sharing a bit of your life.

azxd
03-08-2012, 09:29 AM
Any "felon" has the right to petition the court to have his right to bear arms restored.........BUT.......First thing you'll need is a form from the ATF stating they have no objections.

Get past that first hurdle before even looking at the next.

Ain't going to happen no matter how many "law professors" file petitions.
That has been my understanding ... There is a specific form for this.

And I wasn't looking talking about a law professor filing anything, just offering some advise ... If one wants to go further, I'll PM contact info to pcosmar and let him take it from there.

pcosmar
03-08-2012, 09:31 AM
I'll still ask ... But pleading guilty to attempted possession of a firearm without having things fully cleaned up IMO means you are correct about the ATF never reinstating your ability to legally own a firearm.
Especially when this is coupled with a domestic violence charge.

Was brought up in Court.. The Judge refused to recognize nor accept the Restoration of Rights.

There never was any domestic violence (well, not on my part) and those charges were dropped.

I plead guilty to save my farm.. Period.

azxd
03-08-2012, 09:46 AM
Was brought up in Court.. The Judge refused to recognize nor accept the Restoration of Rights.

There never was any domestic violence (well, not on my part) and those charges were dropped.

I plead guilty to save my farm.. Period.
The whole thing sucks, Man.

pcosmar
03-08-2012, 09:51 AM
And I wasn't looking talking about a law professor filing anything, just offering some advise ... If one wants to go further, I'll PM contact info to pcosmar and let him take it from there.

DUDE,,
I have been dealing with this shit for years..
I know the damn laws better than any friggin" "Law professor",,or at least the realities of it.

And YES,, I know the laws as they are written and in how they are Enforced.
I owned Black Powder when I was on parole in Missouri.

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/231/458767576_1f8c55ffd9_z.jpg?zz=1

That was then,, this is now.
And both Police and Prosecutors are completely OUT OF CONTROL.

tod evans
03-08-2012, 09:54 AM
That was then,, this is now.
And both Police and Prosecutors are completely OUT OF CONTROL.

Here-here!