VA-Scenes from Police State Amerika

[Anti Federalist]

At the scene of an abortion protest at the state capital.

About a thousand peaceful demonstrators.

I do not know if they were "pro" or "con".

That is not relevant, what is relevant is the militarized response toward people exercising their rights.

Do not, for one second, try to tell me these are "peace officers".

This is the front line of the standing army, ready, willing and itching for the chance to light our collective asses up.

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops2.jpg

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops3.jpg

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops.jpg

[tod evans]

Love the chick in the headband!

What does that pesky constitution say about "standing armys"?

[CaptUSA]

Obviously, you do not care for the safety of these officers as they are violating your civil rights. This show of force is merely to protect these officers and citizenry from harm. :rolleyes:

[Johnny Appleseed]

Cops sure love their gear...dudes in green have their faces and names covered to protect their facebook accounts...I noticed from watching the Greece riots that cops walk right through molotovs but are scared to death of paint...I guess it doesn't take much paint to smear a face shield making it difficult to see through that and it makes a mess of all that expensive gear. I also find it funny that they put the word "police" on their uniform as if they might be mistaken for boyscouts

[JK/SEA]

Everyone of those guys pictured are cowards and pussies. I bet they need tucked in everynight, and given their teddy bear.

[flightlesskiwi]

what point you trying to make, AF?

we are so free, it freakin' hurts. especially when you get that there freedom in yer eyes.

http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/6401426493_a36b749d08_b-550x393.jpg

[VBRonPaulFan]

the militarization of our police state is disgusting

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

All of us without a job should apply to be officers of the law, so when SHTF we know not to follow unconstitutional orders against citizens.

[thoughtomator]

I can't help but think it inevitable that those goons will eventually meet a protest with ex-military sniper cover.

[pcosmar]

I can't help but think it inevitable that those goons will eventually meet a protest with ex-military sniper cover.
I expect so.
But it doesn't have to be "sniper cover",, just a few riflemen.

[presence]

I can't help but think it inevitable that those goons will eventually meet a protest with ex-military sniper cover.

Something must be done
About vengeance, a badge and a GUN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smim2MNvF8)

[azxd]

I can't help but think it inevitable that those goons will eventually meet a protest with ex-military sniper cover.
Thus proving the need to be prepared for the worst.

Seriously,
I was expecting to see horrific attrocities being wielded by black-booted thugs ... But all I see is people who put their lives on the line to help protect law abiding citizens, from the potential you have described.

[A Son of Liberty]

The militarization of police is thanks in large part to the "War on Drugs", which may be the most destructive policy in American history, in terms of relations between "law enforcement" and the citizenry.

Advocacy on behalf of this utterly failed, destructive policy is madness.

[azxd]

The militarization of police is thanks in large part to the "War on Drugs", which may be the most destructive policy in American history, in terms of relations between "law enforcement" and the citizenry.

Advocacy on behalf of this utterly failed, destructive policy is madness.
I'll not argue this ... But until such laws are revoked/changed, you can't really blame those entrusted with defending law abiding citizens from the violence that accompanies said war.

Heck,
Without the anarchist portion of society, and the violence they attempt to invoke at many public events, things might also be much different.

The big problem is we put band-aids on a leaking artery, and ignore the root causes, which are many.

[Czolgosz]

We the people are still the largest standing army. Consolidate, enforce our rights, and regrow freedom.

[kill the banks]

can't believe this madness

[tod evans]

We the people are still the largest standing army. Consolidate, enforce our rights, and regrow freedom.

What some consider "their rights" others consider infringement on theirs.....

How about pitching each and every federal law and regulation not specifically enumerated in the constitution?

Then just maybe "rights" could be understood by all.

[thoughtomator]

I'll not argue this ... But until such laws are revoked/changed, you can't really blame those entrusted with defending law abiding citizens from the violence that accompanies said war.

Did you see those pics? Those are soldiers, not policemen, regardless of who their actual paymaster is.

When did soldiers as security at a peaceful political protest become acceptable?

Of course this is not security at all, but intimidation - a reminder to the protesting proles who is really in charge.

[NoOneButPaul]

I'd love to see what would happen if the people showed up in full riot gear with mace...

[BUSHLIED]

I've personally never seen the "police" outfitted in that type of gear, particularly the "army green" coloring...usually the swats or secret service are in black, like some of them were. Wonder why the change of color?

[Czolgosz]

What some consider "their rights" others consider infringement on theirs.....

How about pitching each and every federal law and regulation not specifically enumerated in the constitution?

Then just maybe "rights" could be understood by all.

I'm with you about pitching every Federal law not enumerated. Coupled w/ a convention to make some of the language more explicit, this is definitely where I'd like to go. The question is, can we get there under a very corrupt system?


I believe a consolidation of effort into a small region could meet this goal. Getting people together (physically) would provide for a common defense. Further, as the apathetic old-Americans see how freedom works in new-America they will join us. Not all, but those who get it. This is growth.

[Czolgosz]

I'd love to see what would happen if the people showed up in full riot gear with mace...

We can outnumber them anytime We wish. Planning, tactics, and numbers will win.

[azxd]

We the people are still the largest standing army. Consolidate, enforce our rights, and regrow freedom.
I'd love to ... The problem is, a large portion of society would view this as taking the law into our own hands.

[azxd]

Did you see those pics? Those are soldiers, not policemen, regardless of who their actual paymaster is.

When did soldiers as security at a peaceful political protest become acceptable?

Of course this is not security at all, but intimidation - a reminder to the protesting proles who is really in charge.
Antipating violence requires being prepared.

Have you seen such dress at a typical TEA Party ?

[tod evans]

We can outnumber them anytime We wish. Planning, tactics, and numbers will win.

Under current "law" this is a conspiracy...........Conspiracy to commit sedition.....

Gitmo here we come!

[Czolgosz]

I'd love to ... The problem is, a large portion of society would view this as taking the law into our own hands.


Under current "law" this is a conspiracy...........Conspiracy to commit sedition.....

Gitmo here we come!

Indeed. Which is why you can try to peacefully re-educate enough old-Americans or separate from them.

[TheTexan]

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops2.jpg

Before I go off on a rant on this... is there any legitimate reason whatsoever they would need to wear a mask to cover their face?

Or just anonymity? Because if they're wearing the masks for anonymity, that pisses me off in about 1,000 different ways.

[azxd]

I've personally never seen the "police" outfitted in that type of gear, particularly the "army green" coloring...usually the swats or secret service are in black, like some of them were. Wonder why the change of color?
Mil-surp give aways perhaps ... That's how most departments acquire a lot of their military style gear and vehicles.

Remember,
Most of this didn't exist at the local level, until after the bank robbery in LA, where LE was ineffective until they went to the local sporting goods store and purchased a few hunting rifles.
Most also didn't have bullet proof vests ... The entire problem is the result of being tasked to enforce current laws, right or wrong, and the immorality of society as it blatantly disregards laws.

[azxd]

We can outnumber them anytime We wish. Planning, tactics, and numbers will win.
So you advocate overthrowing local LE, and establishing your own police force ?

[tod evans]

Before I go off on a rant on this... is there any legitimate reason whatsoever they would need to wear a mask to cover their face?

Or just anonymity? Because if they're wearing the masks for anonymity, that pisses me off in about 1,000 different ways.

There are no identifying marks on those uniforms, you can't tell one from another for good reason.

If it all goes south out there which individual is held accountable?

[pcosmar]

Have you seen such dress at a typical TEA Party ?

Yes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWkZ2BMvvrg

[azxd]

Indeed. Which is why you can try to peacefully re-educate enough old-Americans or separate from them.
If you don't re-educate them, you will loose to the system or die trying, if attempting what some suggest.

Violence is always a last resort, and if attempted when there are other options, you'll find many siding with the idea that the instigator be incarcerated, or buried for the effort.

[Czolgosz]

So you advocate overthrowing local LE, and establishing your own police force ?

I advocate enforcing our rights as protected by the Constitution. My response was to the question of


"I'd love to see what would happen if the people showed up in full riot gear with mace..."

[azxd]

Yes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWkZ2BMvvrg
Would you prefer a non-aggresive show of force that has the intent to keep order, or would you prefer they just start shooting at people ?
I saw none of the latter ... Did you ?

[azxd]

I advocate enforcing our rights as protected by the Constitution. My response was to the question of
Then I'll just say choose your words carefully ... As someone already said, you imply "conspiracy to commit sedition" ;)

[pcosmar]

So you advocate overthrowing local LE,

Overthrowing? No.

Eliminating,, Yes.
Police should simply NOT EXIST in a free society. They are a product of Authoritarianism.(tyranny)

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm


The Constitution contains no explicit provisions for criminal law enforcement. Nor did the constitutions of any of the several states contain such provisions at the time of the Founding. Early constitutions enunciated the intention that law enforcement was a universal duty that each person owed to the community, rather than a power of the government. Founding-era constitutions addressed law enforcement from the standpoint of individual liberties and placed explicit barriers upon the state.

Law enforcement should be directly and exclusively in the hands of the people,,where it belongs.

[TheTexan]

Then I'll just say choose your words carefully ... As someone already said, you imply "conspiracy to commit sedition" ;)

This whole forum is a conspiracy to commit sedition.

[pcosmar]

Would you prefer a non-aggresive show of force that has the intent to keep order, or would you prefer they just start shooting at people ?


I would prefer No Force,, and no show of force.

Keep order??
WTF is that supposed to mean?

Perhaps you should read the statement in my sig line.
A direct quote of the man we support here.

[Czolgosz]

Then I'll just say choose your words carefully ... As someone already said, you imply "conspiracy to commit sedition" ;)

Indeed. And if they come to pick me up I'll be relegated to a conversation topic on some conspiracy forum. :D

[thoughtomator]

This whole forum is a conspiracy to commit sedition.

If you want to quibble over terminology, it's technically a conspiracy to end sedition.

[Jingles]

Before I go off on a rant on this... is there any legitimate reason whatsoever they would need to wear a mask to cover their face?

Or just anonymity? Because if they're wearing the masks for anonymity, that pisses me off in about 1,000 different ways.

A combination of what you said, also it's been pretty cold in VA the past couple of days. Those kind of look more like neckwarmers than face masks. I know I have one for when I go hunting that covers up to my eyes and goddamn it is the warmest thing ever.

I just don't see why they must be armed like that for people peacefully protesting. What the hell do you need a helmet and combat gear for? It's people holding signs.

[pcosmar]

A combination of what you said, also it's been pretty cold in VA the past couple of days. Those kind of look more like neckwarmers than face masks. .

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops3.jpg

Defense Fail.

[azxd]

I would prefer No Force,, and no show of force.

Keep order??
WTF is that supposed to mean?

Perhaps you should read the statement in my sig line.
A direct quote of the man we support here.
So if they changed clothing, you'd be ok with this ?

Myself,
If choosing such a profession, would want everything I could get, so I could go home to family and friends, after my shift ended.

It does make me wonder what a G8/G20 summit, or even a political rally would be like, if there were no rules, and we could each have the freedom to kill the opposition, just because we disagree, or feel the need to defend ourselves from the hostilities of others.

Anarchists and the rule of power come to mind !!!
He who is the most violent wins ... Is that what you really want ?

[azxd]

A combination of what you said, also it's been pretty cold in VA the past couple of days. Those kind of look more like neckwarmers than face masks. I know I have one for when I go hunting that covers up to my eyes and goddamn it is the warmest thing ever.

I just don't see why they must be armed like that for people peacefully protesting. What the hell do you need a helmet and combat gear for? It's people holding signs.
G8 is a prime example ... As are the recent riots in Greece ... Frustration does not mean one must resort to violence.

[azxd]

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops3.jpg

Defense Fail.
I see long pants and coats in the background :D

[A Son of Liberty]

and the immorality of society as it blatantly disregards laws.

Morality has nothing to do with obeying laws.

[pcosmar]

Anarchists and the rule of power come to mind !!!
He who is the most violent wins ... Is that what you really want ?

Who said anything about anarchists?


Oh yeah,, YOU did. Is that supposed to stifle the discussion?

You mention the G20 summit (Good)The people have a right to disapprove of them and their presence.
To physically remove them from their community, or to protest them.

just the fact that they needed an army of thugs to protect them aught to be a clue.

[pcosmar]

G8 is a prime example ...

Prime example of what..?
An Army protecting the Vampire class from the people they are victimizing.

[azxd]

Who said anything about anarchists?


Oh yeah,, YOU did. Is that supposed to stifle the discussion?

You mention the G20 summit (Good)The people have a right to disapprove of them and their presence.
To physically remove them from their community, or to protest them.

just the fact that they needed an army of thugs to protect them aught to be a clue.
LE or not ... If you expected to encounter violence, what would you want to be wearing ?
Probably much more than what is portrayed in that picture.

If you knew that a portion of society would like nothing better than to put a bullet in you, because you chose to defend the laws, the Constitution, the whole enchalada, would you go into such a situation naked ?

And no, I'm not trying to stifle anything ... I'm just not ready to give up on a system, just because it has problems.

Truth be told,
I'd prefer that we be allowed to kill rapists as they commit the act, do the same to pedophiles, and many other portions of society that do not understand where their liberty ends and anothers begins.

But society as a whole says that is not appropriate.

[azxd]

Prime example of what..?
An Army protecting the Vampire class from the people they are victimizing.
If you truly feel that way, go fix the situation.
I'm not saying commit an act of violence, but if you choose that as your option, you must also be ready for the consequences of your choice.

[azxd]

How would any of you feel IF a group entered your neighborhood, or political rally point BECAUSE of your political beliefs, and threatened you ?

[flightlesskiwi]

He who is the most violent wins ... Is that what you really want ?

azxd, i respect you man, but this is what we already have.

the US police state has the monopoly on violence hands down. domestically and internationally.

[tod evans]

Should be required reading about "Standing Armies";

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance110.html

[Czolgosz]

How would any of you feel IF a group entered your neighborhood, or political rally point BECAUSE of your political beliefs, and threatened you ?

They're armed and on my property?

[azxd]

They're armed and on my property?
You decide based on what I wrote ;)
I feel I qualified it correctly for you to give a response.

You are being threatened ... What now ?

[Czolgosz]

azxd, i respect you man, but this is what we already have.

the US police state has the monopoly on violence hands down. domestically and internationally.

This.

[Czolgosz]

You decide based on what I wrote ;)
I feel I qualified it correctly for you to give a response.

You are being threatened ... What now ?

Nada.

They gotta act.

[azxd]

azxd, i respect you man, but this is what we already have.

the US police state has the monopoly on violence hands down. domestically and internationally.
And why is this ?
What caused the escalation over the years within our civilian force ?

[azxd]

Nada.

They gotta act.
Sidestepping over symantics ... They ARE threatening you.
That is the ACT.

[Czolgosz]

Sidestepping over symantics ... They ARE threatening you.
That is the ACT.

Just words. Do it.

[A Son of Liberty]

And why is this ?
What caused the escalation over the years within our civilian force ?

The drug war, primarily; as well as the over-hyped fear of "terrorism". Not to mention that the lever-pullers are likely aware of the odds of economic depression and/or collapse, and are preparing their local armies accordingly.

[pcosmar]

How would any of you feel IF a group entered your neighborhood, or political rally point BECAUSE of your political beliefs, and threatened you ?

That is exactly what we are dealing with.
An Army of thugs in our neighborhoods. And at our political rallies. Threatening US.

[azxd]

Just words. Do it.
Do what ?
Defend self ?

[Czolgosz]

Do what ?
Defend self ?

Come at me, bro.

[flightlesskiwi]

And why is this ?
What caused the escalation over the years within our civilian force ?

apathy. ignorance. laziness. lack of responsibility. and a seemingly endless supply of fiat money that allows for the breeding and encouragement such attitudes.

[azxd]

That is exactly what we are dealing with.
An Army of thugs in our neighborhoods. And at our political rallies. Threatening US.
Who chose to attend this function, and what was their purpose ?

Also,
How many deaths and acts of violence have occurred over the issue of abortion ... Many !!!

If people would leave each other alone, there would be no need for this form of political statement, and thus no need for LE to be on the scene ... YES ?

[azxd]

Come at me, bro.
With no LE, as you advocate, perhaps you'd just be shot from a distance ... Lights out, and you'd never knew what hit you.

[tod evans]

apathy. ignorance. laziness. lack of responsibility. and a seemingly endless supply of fiat money that allows for the breeding and encouragement such attitudes.

Please read what they said about this back in the 1700's. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance110.html)

[azxd]

apathy. ignorance. laziness. lack of responsibility. and a seemingly endless supply of fiat money that allows for the breeding and encouragement such attitudes.
I don't agree with the welfare state, either.

[Czolgosz]

With no LE, as you advocate, perhaps you'd just be shot from a distance ... Lights out, and you'd never knew what hit you.

LE won't stop that.

[A Son of Liberty]

With no LE, as you advocate, perhaps you'd just be shot from a distance ... Lights out, and you'd never knew what hit you.

Law enforcement stops snipers? What?

[Czolgosz]

az, what's the role of local Police, and what are they capable of doing?

[pcosmar]

With no LE, as you advocate, perhaps you'd just be shot from a distance ... Lights out, and you'd never knew what hit you.

That could happen WITH LE. They neither prevent nor hinder such.
And officially have no mandate to do so.

[pcosmar]

Law enforcement stops snipers? What?
Yeah,, bizarre ain't it?

[azxd]

LE won't stop that.
If they knew of the event, anticipated violence, and stopped the development, you'd be thankful ... YES ?

[azxd]

Law enforcement stops snipers? What?Would you want them looking for such things and attempting to stop them if President Paul were giving a speech ?

[azxd]

az, what's the role of local Police, and what are they capable of doing?
The role, and the capability are seperate issues ... All departments have people who will abuse the power entrusted to them.

That is a serious problem, and it is not dealt with effectively, but that, in itself, does not make all working in LE bad.

[pcosmar]

I don't agree with the welfare state, either.

It wasn't a statement about the welfare state.. though it may be related,,loosely.

It was about people being irresponsible for their own security and the security of their community.

About people getting someone else to do what they should be doing themselves.
And about people getting others to do what the should NOT be doing themselves. (interfering with liberty)

[azxd]

It wasn't a statement about the welfare state.. though it may be related,,loosely.

It was about people being irresponsible for their own security and the security of their community.

About people getting someone else to do what they should be doing themselves.
And about people getting others to do what the should NOT be doing themselves. (interfering with liberty)
There is a reason I carry ;)

[pcosmar]

does not make all working in LE bad.

Who is supposed to enforce law?
Who's duty is it?

and related,,What if people do not enforce a bad law. ( like prohibition)

[pcosmar]

There is a reason I carry ;)

Everyone should.
Everywhere,, all the time.

Disarmament is another reason for the creation of police.

[JK/SEA]

ahhh..i miss the good ol' days of billy clubs, and police riots and shooting and killing un-armed students...sigh..

[azxd]

The role, and the capability are seperate issues ... All departments have people who will abuse the power entrusted to them.

That is a serious problem, and it is not dealt with effectively, but that, in itself, does not make all working in LE bad.

Who is supposed to enforce law?
Who's duty is it?

and related,,What if people do not enforce a bad law. ( like prohibition)
Who decides law is the more appropriate question.

[A Son of Liberty]

Would you want them looking for such things and attempting to stop them if President Paul were giving a speech ?

That has nothing to do with your comment.

[A Son of Liberty]

Who decides law is the more appropriate question.

Know who this guy is? (Not Geoffery Rush ;) ).

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1623118849302&id=9b6f7ac73bec535327abae1c2175da40

[flightlesskiwi]

Know who this guy is? (Not Geoffery Rush ;) ).

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1623118849302&id=9b6f7ac73bec535327abae1c2175da40

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to A Son of Liberty again.

[azxd]

That has nothing to do with your comment.
That is your opinion.

[A Son of Liberty]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to A Son of Liberty again.

;)

[phill4paul]

The role, and the capability are seperate issues ... All departments have people who will abuse the power entrusted to them.

That is a serious problem, and it is not dealt with effectively, but that, in itself, does not make all working in LE bad.

And THAT is why there is NO good L.E.

[A Son of Liberty]

That is your opinion.

You stated that without LE, people in the streets can expect to be sniped, then followed up by asking me if I'd be pleased if LE prevented a President Paul from being sniped.

One comment had nothing to do with the other, pretty clearly.

[azxd]

ahhh..i miss the good ol' days of billy clubs, and police riots and shooting and killing un-armed students...sigh..
Was that before or after Dillinger and Capone :cool:

[Pericles]

Would you prefer a non-aggresive show of force that has the intent to keep order, or would you prefer they just start shooting at people ?
I saw none of the latter ... Did you ?

Keep order? Where is the disorder? If SWAT ninja wannabes want to play soldier, they should get off the dime and get their asses on active duty with the two way range where opponents shoot back, and you don't get to sleep in your own bed at night, or get overtime, or regularly get the chance to to squeeze the wife / GF on the butt.

And what gives with the US flag on the helmet? They are worried about being confused with Martians?

[azxd]

You stated that without LE, people in the streets can expect to be sniped, then followed up by asking me if I'd be pleased if LE prevented a President Paul from being sniped.

One comment had nothing to do with the other, pretty clearly.
Given the question ... What do you prefer ?

[Lucille]

Related:

Weaponizing the Body Politic
How to Fund an American Police State (http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/2012/03/04/weaponizing-the-body-politic/)


At the height of the Occupy Wall Street evictions, it seemed as though some diminutive version of “shock and awe” had stumbled from Baghdad, Iraq, to Oakland, California. American police forces had been “militarized,” many commentators worried, as though the firepower and callous tactics on display were anomalies, surprises bursting upon us from nowhere.

There should have been no surprise. Those flash grenades exploding in Oakland and the sound cannons on New York’s streets simply opened small windows onto a national policing landscape long in the process of militarization — a bleak domestic no man’s land marked by tanks and drones, robot bomb detectors, grenade launchers, tasers, and most of all, interlinked video surveillance cameras and information databases growing quietly on unobtrusive server farms everywhere.

The ubiquitous fantasy of “homeland security,” pushed hard by the federal government in the wake of 9/11, has been widely embraced by the public. It has also excited intense weapons- and techno-envy among police departments and municipalities vying for the latest in armor and spy equipment.
[...]
Since 9/11, the Department of Homeland Security alone has doled out somewhere between $30 billion and $40 billion in direct grants to state and local law enforcement, as well as other first responders. At the same time, defense contractors have proven endlessly inventive in adapting sales pitches originally honed for the military on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan to the desires of police on the streets of San Francisco and lower Manhattan. Oakland may not be Basra but (as former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld liked to say) there are always the unknown unknowns: best be prepared.

All told, the federal government has appropriated about $635 billion, accounting for inflation, for homeland security-related activities and equipment since the 9/11 attacks. To conclude, though, that “the police” have become increasingly militarized casts too narrow a net. The truth is that virtually the entire apparatus of government has been mobilized and militarized right down to the university campus.

Government budgets at every level now include allocations aimed at fighting an ephemeral “War on Terror” in the United States. A vast surveillance and military buildup has taken place nationwide to conduct a pseudo-war against what can be imagined, not what we actually face. The costs of this effort, started by the Bush administration and promoted faithfully by the Obama administration, have been, and continue to be, virtually incalculable. In the process, public service and the public imagination have been weaponized.

Farewell to Peaceful Private Life

We’re not just talking money eagerly squandered. That may prove the least of it. More importantly, the fundamental values of American democracy — particularly the right to lead an autonomous private life — have been compromised with grim efficiency. The weaponry and tactics now routinely employed by police are visible evidence of this.
[...]
This is not simply a police issue. Law enforcement agencies may acquire the equipment and deploy it, but city legislators and executives must approve the expenditures and the uses. State legislators and bureaucrats refine the local grant requests. Federal officials, with endless input from national security and defense vendors and lobbyists, appropriate the funds.

Doubters are simply swept aside (while legions of security and terrorism pundits spin dread-inducing fantasies), and ultimately, the American people accept and live with the results. We get what we pay for — Mayor Bloomberg’s “army,” replicated coast to coast.

Budgets Tell the Story

Militarized thinking is made manifest through budgets, which daily reshape political and bureaucratic life in large and small ways. Not long after the 9/11 attacks, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, appearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, used this formula to define the new American environment and so the thinking that went with it: “Terrorist operatives infiltrate our communities — plotting, planning, and waiting to kill again.” To counter that, the government had urgently embarked on “a wartime reorganization,” he said, and was “forging new relationships of cooperation with state and local law enforcement.”

While such visionary Ashcroftian rhetoric has cooled in recent years, the relationships and funding he touted a decade ago have been institutionalized throughout government — federal, state, and local — as well as civil society. The creation of the Department of Homeland Security, with a total 2012 budget of about $57 billion, is the most obvious example of this.

That budget only hints at what’s being doled out for homeland security at the federal level. Such moneys flow not just from Homeland Security, but from the Justice Department, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Commerce Department, the Department of Agriculture, and the Department of Defense.

In 2010, the Office of Management and Budget reckoned that 31 separate federal agencies were involved in homeland security-related funding that year to the tune of more than $65 billion. The Census Bureau, which has itself been compromised by War on Terror activities — mapping Middle Eastern and Muslim communities for counter-terrorism officials — estimated that federal homeland security funding topped $70 billion in 2010. But government officials acknowledge that much funding is not included in that compilation. (To offer but one example, grants made through the $5.6 billion Project BioShield, to offer but one example, an exotic vaccination and medical program launched in 2004, are absent from the total.)
[...]
The Rise of the Fusion Centers

Homeland Security has played a big role in creating one particularly potent element in the nation’s expanding database network. Working with the Department of Justice in the wake of 9/11, it launched what has grown into 72 interlinked state “fusion centers” — repositories for everything from Immigration Customs Enforcement data and photographs to local police reports and even gossip. “Suspicious Activity Reports” gathered from public tipsters — thanks to Homeland Security’s “if you see something, say something” program — are now flowing into state centers. Those fusion centers are possibly the greatest facilitators of dish in history, and have vast potential for disseminating dubious information and stigmatizing purely political activity. And most Americans have never even heard of them.

Yet fusion centers now operate in every state, centralizing intelligence gathering and facilitating dissemination of material of every sort across the country. Here is where information gathered by cops and citizens, FBI agents and immigration officers goes to fester. It is a staggering load of data, unevenly and sometimes questionably vetted, and it is ultimately available to any state or local law-enforcement officer, any immigration agent or official, any intelligence or security bureaucrat with a computer and network access.

The idea for these centers grew from the notion that agencies needed to share what they knew in an “unfettered” environment. How comforting to know that the walls between intelligence and law enforcement are breached in an essentially unregulated fashion.

Many other states have monitored antiwar activists, gathering and storing names and information. Texas and other states have stored “intelligence” on Muslims. Pennsylvania gathered reports on opponents of natural gas drilling. Florida has scrutinized supporters of presidential candidate Ron Paul. The list of such questionable activities is very long. We have no idea how much dubious data has been squirreled away by authorities and remains within the networked system. But we do know that information pours into it with relative ease and spreads like an oil slick. Cleaning up and removing the mess is another story entirely.
[...]
The chances of an American dying in a terrorist incident in a given year are 1 in 3.5 million. To reduce that risk, to make something minuscule even more minuscule, what has the nation spent? What has it cost us? Instead of rebuilding a ravaged American city in a timely fashion or making Americans more secure in their “underwater” homes and their disappearing jobs, we have created militarized police forces, visible evidence of police-state-style funding.

[azxd]

Keep order? Where is the disorder? If SWAT ninja wannabes want to play soldier, they should get off the dime and get their asses on active duty with the two way range where opponents shoot back, and you don't get to sleep in own bed at noght, or get overtime, or regularly get the chance to to squeeze the wife / GF on the butt.

And what gives with the US flag on the helmet? They are worried about being confused with Martians?
Gee ... I don't know, but when all of you decide to start killing people because of their uniform and chosen profession, make sure that some of them are wearing blue helmets.

[flightlesskiwi]

Gee ... I don't know, but when all of you decide to start killing people because of their uniform and chosen profession, make sure that some of them are wearing blue helmets.

and now you're just trolling.

i happen to like the idea of Sheriffs... if they'd actually uphold their oaths and the people they serve would hold them accountable.

[bolil]

Boy, the Chicago PD must be itching for a chance to regain their ass beating crown.

[Pericles]

Gee ... I don't know, but when all of you decide to start killing people because of their uniform and chosen profession, make sure that some of them are wearing blue helmets.

That is kind of what war is about isn't it? Nothing personal, those that just aren't wearing the "right" uniform get shot. When no uniform is the "wrong" uniform, it is bound to go bad.

[azxd]

and now you're just trolling.

i happen to like the idea of Sheriffs... if they'd actually uphold their oaths and the people they serve would hold them accountable.
As would I, and I've already stated that there is a problem within LE ... But I don't buy the excuse that this makes all in LE bad.

Oh,
And,
Sorry if my differing perspective is considered trolling by you ... But I'm not a lemming who allows others to make my decisions for me.

[JK/SEA]

Was that before or after Dillinger and Capone :cool:

after.

Now we have gas, L-RAD, rubber bullets, still have the 'club', automatic weapons, tanks, gun mounted helicopters, versus maybe a bullhorn, paper signs, loud voices, and the random dumpster on fire tactic, which by God is one scary thing to behold while your standing there waiting for orders to 'open up'.

How about we do this. Let people protest, and if 'things' get damaged, call the insurance company. simple. and if private property owners want to entertain globalist fascists, then hire your own security with your own money and leave taxpayer funded LE to do the job their supposed to do, whatever that is...killing dogs and innocent older women i suppose...

[azxd]

That is kind of what war is about isn't it? Nothing personal, those that just aren't wearing the "right" uniform get shot. When no uniform is the "wrong" uniform, it is bound to go bad.Please reflect upon the portion of society that views any LE uniform as a target, and ask yourself if those are the people you wish to support.

The problem isn't the people, but it can be argued that the system is the problem.

[flightlesskiwi]

As would I, and I've already stated that there is a problem within LE ... But I don't buy the excuse that this makes all in LE bad.

Oh,
And,
Sorry if my differing perspective is considered trolling by you ... But I'm not a lemming who allows others to make my decisions for me.

your statement of "when you decide to start killing people because of their uniform" was pretty damn incendiary.

[azxd]

after.

Now we have gas, L-RAD, rubber bullets, still have the 'club', automatic weapons, tanks, gun mounted helicopters, versus maybe a bullhorn, paper signs, loud voices, and the random dumpster on fire tactic, which by God is one scary thing to behold while your standing there waiting for orders to 'open up'.

How about we do this. Let people protest, and if 'things' get damaged, call the insurance company. simple. and if private property owners want to entertain globalist fascists, then hire your own security with your own money and leave taxpayer funded LE to do the job their supposed to do, whatever that is...killing dogs and innocent older women i suppose...
And in the past all they had were bullets and clubs.

Society is the problem, and LE has risen to meet the challenge, because a portion of society wishes this.

Change the mentality, and perhaps things will someday be different.

[flightlesskiwi]

And in the past all they had were bullets and clubs.

Society is the problem, and LE has risen to meet the challenge, because a portion of society wishes this.

Change the mentality, and perhaps things will someday be different.

i would hasten a guess that's what we are all attempting to do.

[azxd]

you're statement of "when you decide to start killing people because of their uniform" was pretty damn incendiary.
That was the intention, and it is directed at those who feel the only soultion is violence ... I do not condone such acts, but there is a protion of society that does, and that is a much bigger problem than what LE is tasked with, IMO.

[phill4paul]

And in the past all they had were bullets and clubs.

Society is the problem, and LE has risen to meet the challenge, because a portion of society wishes this.

Change the mentality, and perhaps things will someday be different.

LE has risen to meet the challenge. If by that you mean extortion, murder, theft, torture and the subsequent cover ups then I agree with you.

[presence]

azxd...

You know... if there were 2 or 3 cops there in typical cop uniform "observing" a peaceful protest from the perimeter; with smiles on their face... politely urging protesters to maintain civility when they become out of line.... I don't think anyone would have problems. If those cops had a swat team on call a few blocks away in the back of a truck; just in case; backup... I don't think anyone would have a problem. But this is a bunch of un-armed women, addressing their government for grievances about family issues and reproductive rights and they are being faced with heavily armed, battle ready, riot police, in full riot gear... All this for a peaceful protest when nobody is RIOTING. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot) When you're being peaceful, addressing your government, I don't care what you're their stance or point is, you shouldn't have to stare into the shield of a riot helmet UNLESS YOU ARE molotov cocktail in hand RIOTING. The police are quietly inciting violence by appearing to be intimidators and authoritarians rather than PUBLIC SERVANTS; they are inducing a fight or flight response by their tactics, demeanor, and grossly exaggerated need for militant riot gear.

WAKE UP! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICecxOfmFtU&feature=related)

presence

[azxd]

i would hasten a guess that's what we are all attempting to do.
It's a primary reason I am here writing stuff.
Ya never know who might read our words, and develop a like minded comclusion about our discussions.

[Anti Federalist]

Gee ... I don't know, but when all of you decide to start killing people because of their uniform and chosen profession

The uniform has nothing to do with it, other than to indentify, friend or foe.

The profession? You bet your ass...

This is what the "profession" has done before:

Nazi execution at mass grave site.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53743000/jpg/_53743253_004981468-1.jpg

Pre teen Waco victim.
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/bentcorpse.jpg

Stalin's gulag victims.
http://april25th.scuole.bo.it/@api/deki/files/49/=gulag4.jpg

Victims of Pol Pot.
http://www.frontline.org.za/IMAGES/SKULLS.JPG

Uganda torture victims.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3bieK1Z5jbU/TjwHYPBaBmI/AAAAAAAAAEo/J0zpUf46qbI/s380/284261_156925314382766_100001958955546_311633_6875 677_n%2B%2B%2BKanugu.jpg

US drone attack victims.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sH_YWAAow1I/TTEHzeIYteI/AAAAAAAADkw/OKcT66iWL_0/s1600/Drones-kill-innocent-people.jpg

All brought to you by the "professionals".

[azxd]

azxd...

You know... if there were 2 or 3 cops there in typical cop uniform "observing" a peaceful protest from the perimeter; with smiles on their face... politely urging protesters to maintain civility when they become out of line.... I don't think anyone would have problems. If those cops had a swat team on call a few blocks away in the back of a truck; just in case; backup... I don't think anyone would have a problem. But this is a bunch of un-armed women, addressing their government for grievances about family issues and reproductive rights and they are being faced with heavily armed, battle ready, riot police, in full riot gear... All this for a peaceful protest when nobody is RIOTING. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot) When you're being peaceful, addressing your government, I don't care what you're their stance or point is, you shouldn't have to stare into the shield of a riot helmet UNLESS YOU ARE molotov cocktail in hand RIOTING. The police are quietly inciting violence by appearing to be intimidators and authoritarians rather than PUBLIC SERVANTS; they are inducing a fight or flight response by their tactics, demeanor, and grossly exaggerated need for militant riot gear.

WAKE UP! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICecxOfmFtU&feature=related)

presence
Did you perhaps miss the LE presence when Obama came to Phoenix a few years ago, and a guy was carrying an AR-15 slung over his sholder ?
Such a LE presence was not needed at the event ... I wonder why that was ?

Could it possibly be because not all of LE are jack-booted thugs !!!

Heck,
LE approached the man, asked a question or two, and let him continue to walk around, and when asked, LE told local news that he was within hsi rights, and doing nothing wrong.

So,
Perhaps some of you need to work locally, or just move to a State where individual freedom is given more respect.

[azxd]

The uniform has nothing to do with it, other than to indentify, friend or foe.

The profession? You bet your ass...

This is what the "profession" has done before:

Nazi execution at mass grave site.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53743000/jpg/_53743253_004981468-1.jpg

Pre teen Waco victim.
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/bentcorpse.jpg

Stalin's gulag victims.
http://april25th.scuole.bo.it/@api/deki/files/49/=gulag4.jpg

Victims of Pol Pot.
http://www.frontline.org.za/IMAGES/SKULLS.JPG

Uganda torture victims.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3bieK1Z5jbU/TjwHYPBaBmI/AAAAAAAAAEo/J0zpUf46qbI/s380/284261_156925314382766_100001958955546_311633_6875 677_n%2B%2B%2BKanugu.jpg

US drone attack victims.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sH_YWAAow1I/TTEHzeIYteI/AAAAAAAADkw/OKcT66iWL_0/s1600/Drones-kill-innocent-people.jpg

All brought to you by the "professionals".
And jerkwater USA ?
Where is that ?

[azxd]

I sure would like to hear some responses from some of you, in this thread - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?365036-Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-I-Spoke-with-Andrew-Breitbart-Shortly-Before-he-Died

IMO,
It's much more important than what has a few of you upset.

[phill4paul]

And jerkwater USA ?
Where is that ?

Second picture in the line-up.

[XTreat]

Before I go off on a rant on this... is there any legitimate reason whatsoever they would need to wear a mask to cover their face?

Or just anonymity? Because if they're wearing the masks for anonymity, that pisses me off in about 1,000 different ways.


Just to be fair, those masks are called "Neck Gators" in the military ans they are used in the cold weather to keep your face and ears warm. It is reletivly cold in VA.

[azxd]

Second picture in the line-up.Waco is an isolated incident that should not have happened ... Got anymore examples ?
That's why I asked about Jerkwater USA ... I'm not seeing a trend.

[Feeding the Abscess]

I sure would like to hear some responses from some of you, in this thread - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?365036-Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio-I-Spoke-with-Andrew-Breitbart-Shortly-Before-he-Died

IMO,
It's much more important than what has a few of you upset.

An authoritarian thug meeting with an authoritarian thug is not more important than ending the warfare state.

I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish. You call people who oppose Progressive Era policies progressive liberal democrats who want to vote for Obama, while supporting those Progressive Era policies. You defend cops. Why are you here?

[Pericles]

Heck,
LE approached the man, asked a question or two, and let him continue to walk around, and when asked, LE told local news that he was within hsi rights, and doing nothing wrong.



That attituse ^ right there is exactly the problem. To let someone do what he has a natural and constitutional right to do demonstrates an attitude that needlessly creates antagonism. Bad attitudes are contagious. Next stop is "contempt of cop" and the resulting damage to which that leads.

[Anti Federalist]

And jerkwater USA ?
Where is that ?

Waco.

Ruby Ridge.

Oakland.

Pima County AZ.

Tampa.

Gagged, tortured and executed by Tampa cops.

http://police4aqi.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nc.jpg

Detroit.

Shot in the head in wrong house drug raid.
http://www.bilalaliproductions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/storygirlkilledraidwdiv1.jpg

I could go on and on and on....

[azxd]

An authoritarian thug meeting with an authoritarian thug is not more important than ending the warfare state.

I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish. You call people who oppose Progressive Era policies progressive liberal democrats who want to vote for Obama, while supporting those Progressive Era policies. You defend cops. Why are you here?
Read the thread ... It became one of Presidential eligability and seeking the truth ... You do like to know what the truth is, don't you ?

[phill4paul]

Waco is an isolated incident that should not have happened ... Got anymore examples ?
That's why I asked about Jerkwater USA ... I'm not seeing a trend.

How many times constitute a 'trend.' 20 incidences of police misconduct are reported daily.

Do you think this man before he died was comforted by the fact that his torture might be isolated...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrAQhP-74Tzpc5LWxSHc1jTY7bZ2vH2yBrCkMHV781HKj_2FSq0w

[JK/SEA]

any pics of Weavers wife and son?....that was in IDAHO.

[Anti Federalist]

Waco is an isolated incident that should not have happened ... Got anymore examples ?
That's why I asked about Jerkwater USA ... I'm not seeing a trend.

Waco was the opening salvo in the war on the American people.

Search for "Threads started by Anti Federalist" to see the trend.

[azxd]

Waco.

Ruby Ridge.

Oakland.

Pima County AZ.

Tampa.

Gagged, tortured and executed by Tampa cops.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sH_YWAAow1I/TTEHzeIYteI/AAAAAAAADkw/OKcT66iWL_0/s1600/Drones-kill-innocent-people.jpg

Detroit.

Shot in the head in wrong house drug raid.
http://www.bilalaliproductions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/storygirlkilledraidwdiv1.jpg

I could go on and on and on....
None of those equate to the mass killings you first presented.

I agree with none of the results from what you now present, but do not go to extremes that distort reality.
It is dishonest to the discussion.

The closest one to home, for me, is the Tuscon shooting.
71 shots fired, 60 into the victim, and they could have just grabbed the guy as he left for work ... A horrible outcome, but not indicative of all within LE being bad.

And no different than any other that works within the system as presented.

[azxd]

Waco was the opening salvo in the war on the American people.

Search for "Threads started by Anti Federalist" to see the trend.
In my history books, the Civil War came before Waco ;)

[azxd]

any pics of Weavers wife and son?....that was in IDAHO.
Randy was set up by the ATF ... An agency we could do without.

[Anti Federalist]

any pics of Weavers wife and son?....that was in IDAHO.

http://www.republicratjunta.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ruby-ridge3.jpg

[JK/SEA]

Randy was set up by the ATF ... An agency we could do without.

yeah...who backed up the ATF?

[azxd]

yeah...who backed up the ATF?
The FBI ... Another agency we could do without.

[phill4paul]

None of those equate to the mass killings you first presented.

I agree with none of the results from what you now present, but do not go to extremes that distort reality.
It is dishonest to the discussion.

I see. So the correct action is to wait until things come to the extreme. Seems to me that was the problem, and the cause, in all those instances.

[JK/SEA]

The FBI ... Another agency we could do without.

would'nt have happened if the gutless County Sheriff and his gutless posse would have told the FEDS to pound sand.

[Anti Federalist]

It's not about LE being personally "bad".

It's about serving a system that has gone bad.

Do you not think that there were thousands of SS officers who were decent family men, who loved their kids and puttered in their gardens on the weekends?

The mass killings that I posted started as "isolated incidents" that "should not have happened".





None of those equate to the mass killings you first presented.

I agree with none of the results from what you now present, but do not go to extremes that distort reality.
It is dishonest to the discussion.

The closest one to home, for me, is the Tuscon shooting.
71 shots fired, 60 into the victim, and they could have just grabbed the guy as he left for work ... A horrible outcome, but not indicative of all within LE being bad.

And no different than any other that works within the system as presented.

[azxd]

Federal LE examples do not make Barney Fife a bad guy, do they ?
That's my main point ... I'll not stereotype anyone because of their job, political affiliation, skin color, or any other method that can be used to describe another.

While patterns can be seen, those patterns do not equate to all who fit the pattern being the same.

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul would agree with this thought, and I also believe many of the founding fathers would agree that we are each different, and possessing the ability to do good.

[phill4paul]

would'nt have happened if the gutless County Sheriff and his gutless posse would have told the FEDS to pound sand.

Shush. Those are suppose to be the 'good' cops.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul would agree with this thought, and I also believe many of the founding fathers would agree that we are each different, and possessing the ability to do good.

Actually, there was a pretty vigorous debate and divide about that.

Notably between Sam and John Adams.

I would have been with Sam

[azxd]

It's not about LE being personally "bad".

It's about serving a system that has gone bad.

Do you not think that there were thousands of SS officers who were decent family men, who loved their kids and puttered in their gardens on the weekends?

The mass killings that I posted started as "isolated incidents" that "should not have happened".
For some it is ... They have said so in this thread.

Does your vote serve a system that you feel is bad, but you want to see changed ?
Some in LE are doing the same thing within their system.

There are also some who have chosen to retire early, because they feel the system in not able to be fixed ... They are no different than those who choose not to vote, because they feel the system is beyond their ability to repair.

Life is about hope, and the ability to bring out the best in self and others ... Judging all by categorizing them into the negative, does not make you a better individual.

[azxd]

would'nt have happened if the gutless County Sheriff and his gutless posse would have told the FEDS to pound sand.
And this is why I'd like to hear some of the participants in this thread, jump over to the one that has evoled into Sheriff Joe and the Birth certificate issue.

If the man is correct in stating that there is "probably cause" for further investigation ... It would seem that he is doing the right thing.

[JK/SEA]

//

[azxd]

psyberdyne industries has the answer
Perhaps, but movies are not reality LOL

[tfurrh]

This last page is reminding me a bit of the following passage:

Men of passive tempers look somewhat lightly over the offenses of Britain, and, still hoping for the best, are apt to call out, Come we shall be friends again for all this. But examine the passions and feelings of mankind. Bring the doctrine of reconciliation to the touchstone of nature, and then tell me, whether you can hereafter love, honor, and faithfully serve the power that hath carried fire and sword into your land? If you cannot do all these, then are you only deceiving yourselves, and by your delay bringing ruin upon posterity. Your future connection with Britain, whom you can neither love nor honor, will be forced and unnatural, and being formed only on the plan of present convenience, will in a little time fall into a relapse more wretched than the first. But if you say, you can still pass the violations over, then I ask, Hath your house been burnt? Hath you property been destroyed before your face? Are your wife and children destitute of a bed to lie on, or bread to live on? Have you lost a parent or a child by their hands, and yourself the ruined and wretched survivor? If you have not, then are you not a judge of those who have. But if you have, and can still shake hands with the murderers, then are you unworthy the name of husband, father, friend, or lover, and whatever may be your rank or title in life, you have the heart of a coward, and the spirit of a sycophant. - Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[JK/SEA]

Perhaps, but movies are not reality LOL


drones?...i had psyberdyne written only because it brings a dramatic flavor to 'reality'....no?

[Anti Federalist]

Judging all by categorizing them into the negative, does not make you a better individual.

Do not pass moral judgment on me.

I post these stories to make a two fold point:

A - To catalog our descent into tyranny, and to compare that to past regimes, as a cautionary tale.

B - To help keep people alive. An encounter with today's hyperaggresive and militarized LE can go sideways in a second and leave you, a loved one, or a family pet as dead as Julius Caesar. Therefore my consistent message has always been and will remain to be, do not call cops, do not speak to cops, and as much as possible limit your contact with cops.

To condemn me as some sort of "collectivist bigot" for that is as nuts as calling me a racist because I caution people not to wander around the 9th Ward in NOLA at night.

[azxd]

Do not pass moral judgment on me.

I post these stories to make a two fold point:

A - To catalog our descent into tyranny, and to compare that to past regimes, as a cautionary tale.

B - To help keep people alive. An encounter with today's hyperaggresive and militarized LE can go sideways in a second and leave you, a loved one, or a family pet as dead as Julius Caesar. Therefore my consistent message has always been and will remain to be, do not call cops, do not speak to cops, and as much as possible limit your contact with cops.

To condemn me as some sort of "collectivist bigot" for that is as nuts as calling me a racist because I caution people not to wander around the 9th Ward in NOLA at night.
It is not a moral judgement, even if you think it is ... Yet I will not agrue that we disagree in perspective.

[Jingles]

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops3.jpg

Defense Fail.

I was talking about the first pic, not the riot guard people.

[HOLLYWOOD]

G8 is a prime example ... As are the recent riots in Greece ... Frustration does not mean one must resort to violence.If, as seems to be the case, G8 was moved from Chicago to Camp David for fear of protests, that's a good thing: fear like that is healthy

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-moves-g8-summit-from-chicago-20120305,0,7392829.story

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2012-03/107987800-05134643.jpg

[pcosmar]

I was talking about the first pic, not the riot guard people.

And I was pointing out that though cool weather it was not their reason for wearing masks.

I quick and simple Google image search will bring up numerous photos of swat and other police, here and around the world wearing masks.
It is common and has NOTHING to do with weather.

[A Son of Liberty]

And I was pointing out that though cool weather it was not their reason for wearing masks.

I quick and simple Google image search will bring up numerous photos of swat and other police, here and around the world wearing masks.
It is common and has NOTHING to do with weather.

Yeah, it was in the 50's in VA this weekend. Hardly chilly. The purpose is quite obvious, and it has nothing to do with air temperature.

[A Son of Liberty]

If, as seems to be the case, G8 was moved from Chicago to Camp David for fear of protests, that's a good thing: fear like that is healthy

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-moves-g8-summit-from-chicago-20120305,0,7392829.story

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2012-03/107987800-05134643.jpg

Too bad for Frederick, MD.

[catdd]

100 bucks says they already have snipers posted.

[LibForestPaul]

Please reflect upon the portion of society that views any LE uniform as a target, and ask yourself if those are the people you wish to support.

The problem isn't the people, but it can be argued that the system is the problem.

Please reflect upon the portion of society that views any SS uniform as a target, and ask yourself if those are the people you wish to support.
Missed the AF post...

[TheTexan]

You can make excuses why we need LE all day long, but there is no excuse for letting them get away with the shit they get away with. When cops are no longer held accountable, it's no longer simply a police state. It's a tyranny.

The fucking face masks themselves indicate that they expect to commit atrocities in the name of law, and they expect to get away with it.

Basically the only time cops are ever held accountable, is when they are caught clearly on film by a civilian. No video? Didn't happen. (Has to be a civilian camera. Government cameras are physically incapable of recording crimes by cops)

[heavenlyboy34]

I'll not argue this ... But until such laws are revoked/changed, you can't really blame those entrusted with defending law abiding citizens from the violence that accompanies said war.

Heck,
Without the anarchist portion of society, and the violence they attempt to invoke at many public events, things might also be much different.

The big problem is we put band-aids on a leaking artery, and ignore the root causes, which are many.
Sure we can. A moral and sane officer will not obey orders to commit crimes. Although cops are not obligated to obey constitutional law (or simply natural law), they have a moral obligation to do so. http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

[heavenlyboy34]

You can make excuses why we need LE all day long, but there is no excuse for letting them get away with the shit they get away with. When cops are no longer held accountable, it's no longer simply a police state. It's a tyranny.

The fucking face masks themselves indicate that they expect to commit atrocities in the name of law, and they expect to get away with it.

Basically the only time cops are ever held accountable, is when they are caught clearly on film by a civilian. No video? Didn't happen. (Has to be a civilian camera. Government cameras are physically incapable of recording crimes by cops)
You're right. But the courts over the years have made it clear through various decisions that it's almost impossible to hold cops accountable. I am in agreement with my colleague pcosmar that the police need to disappear.

[presence]

The fucking face masks themselves indicate that they

expect to commit atrocities in the name of law,

and they expect to get away with it.

HEAR HEAR!!!

+REP

I hate cops so ashamed about what they intend to do that they hide their identity behind masks, hidden name tags, and dark glasses. This appears to be becoming common practice at protests. These aren't career undercover agents that need to maintain a low/hidden profile.

Any officer wearing a mask while on duty is a THUG, with CRIMINAL INTENT, in my book.

Who am I, if I walk into a bank, with a mask on?

presence

[heavenlyboy34]

This thread reminds me of the cop or soldier? (http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/16/take-the-quiz/)quiz AF posted a while back.

[presence]

Do not pass moral judgment on me.
[]
To help keep people alive. An encounter with today's hyperaggresive and militarized LE can go sideways in a second and leave you, a loved one, or a family pet as dead as Julius Caesar. Therefore my consistent message has always been and will remain to be, do not call cops, do not speak to cops, and as much as possible limit your contact with cops.


I'd have to be cornered, wounded, and out of bullets before I call 911.

presence

[Marenco]

http://www.sl-webs.com/custimages/dd395-Cop%20(s).jpg

[JK/SEA]

I'd have to be cornered, wounded, and out of bullets before I call 911.

presence

Ya know i've been thinking on this statement, and by God, i don't know, i just don't know anymore. Being brutalized, and killed by someone with a badge and a paycheck i helped donate to versus say, a serial killer who hunted me down for sport...i'd take the latter.

[tod evans]

Ya know i've been thinking on this statement, and by God, i don't know, i just don't know anymore. Being brutalized, and killed by someone with a badge and a paycheck i helped donate to versus say, a serial killer who hunted me down for sport...i'd take the latter.

At least you'd have a fighting chance against 1 serial killer..........

[pcosmar]

Who decides law is the more appropriate question.

Again,, that would be the people and the Constitution. Or it should be.

And it should be at the immediately local level.

[Jonathanm]

The fucking face masks themselves indicate that they expect to commit atrocities in the name of law, and they expect to get away with it.
+rep

[SL89]

I have been reading this thread all day on a laptop with no way to respond. See, I don't know my password and have yet to pick it out of my BIG computers brain. Lol

There is NO reason for the police to exist. If it is organized and funded by any government, be it the city up to state and federal levels, it has no right to exist. We all know government to be corrupt, how could one person believe that the cops are not corrupt as well. Simple deduction. I will say that the local citizens in a county are fully within their rights to ELECT a Sheriff, one who is directly responsible to the people. Actually he/she is highest elected official in any State, with the power that trumps any other. Some debate as to where the Federal marshals kick in. But they are not elected so I will say the Sheriff is the only cop that has the right to exist constitutionally. I can argue for a limited roles roles for the FBI and CIA. VERY LIMITED. And I posted about an positive experience with a cop that pulled me over. Actually two times. But, I am actually lucky to be in a place where the abuses are not the same as elsewhere. The trend here is following on the same path. :( Cops are pigs and the Sheriff is not far behind.

To azxd, I will say this. You claim we should not blame the cop for what their bosses tell them to do. That is a dangerous path my friend. I'll pull the stats later but, I am sure I can say with confidence that the cops kill, cripple , and injure more innocent people, then the other way around. The police cannot be trusted and they have proven it time and time again. Oh yeah. I happen to know the Weaver family. Most of them are neighbors of mine.

If a person takes an oath I hold them to it. All cops swear an oath to the constitution, like our soldiers, like I did and most people here. When a man breaks his oath he no longer has credibility. Like the word of a man and a handshake, that still means something to me. Because we are surrounded by broken promises and oaths. How can we trust in good faith, someone that can't even protect the weak and affirm their oaths day to day??

Until the Police can police the Police....And stand there in unison PROTECTING someones constitutional/inherent rights, they lose. And by proxy, the rare good cop is poisoned because he refuses to stand up. So, yes all cops are bad, just by supporting the corruptness and failing to complain on payday. There is NO reason for a cop to be in full battle dress at ANY event in America. This nation was founded and sustained on distrust of government. They are not there for peace. They are not to keep the calm, they are there to crush descent. As has been said 100 times around here, they are under no obligation to protect you, the courts have said so on more than one occasion. Yet, they swear to the constitution. Go figure.

[noneedtoaggress]

I'll not argue this ... But until such laws are revoked/changed, you can't really blame those entrusted with defending law abiding citizens from the violence that accompanies said war.

Heck,
Without the anarchist hooligan portion of society, and the violence they attempt to invoke at many public events, things might also be much different.

The big problem is we put band-aids on a leaking artery, and ignore the root causes, which are many.

fixed it for you. Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) is a political philosophy with a wealthy intellectual history, varying schools of thought, and many respectable advocates. Anarchism =/= hooliganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooliganism).

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8351/tomwoodsanarchist.png

;)

[Czolgosz]

fixed it for you. Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) is a political philosophy with a wealthy intellectual history, varying schools of thought, and many respectable advocates. Anarchism =/= hooliganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooliganism).

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8351/tomwoodsanarchist.png


;)

My quandary is that of Tom's.

[PaulConventionWV]

At the scene of an abortion protest at the state capital.

About a thousand peaceful demonstrators.

I do not know if they were "pro" or "con".

That is not relevant, what is relevant is the militarized response toward people exercising their rights.

Do not, for one second, try to tell me these are "peace officers".

This is the front line of the standing army, ready, willing and itching for the chance to light our collective asses up.

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops2.jpg

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops3.jpg

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops.jpg

Judging by the "no war on women" sign, I'd say it was a feminist protest in favor of abortion rights. Sorry I had to go and point out that irrelevant fact.

[PaulConventionWV]

I'll not argue this ... But until such laws are revoked/changed, you can't really blame those entrusted with defending law abiding citizens from the violence that accompanies said war.

Heck,
Without the anarchist portion of society, and the violence they attempt to invoke at many public events, things might also be much different.

The big problem is we put band-aids on a leaking artery, and ignore the root causes, which are many.

Who are they defending again?

[tod evans]

I know this is redundant but if only one person reads it it's worth the redundancy, sorry!

STANDING ARMIES. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance110.html)

[azxd]

I have been reading this thread all day on a laptop with no way to respond. See, I don't know my password and have yet to pick it out of my BIG computers brain. Lol

There is NO reason for the police to exist. If it is organized and funded by any government, be it the city up to state and federal levels, it has no right to exist. We all know government to be corrupt, how could one person believe that the cops are not corrupt as well. Simple deduction. I will say that the local citizens in a county are fully within their rights to ELECT a Sheriff, one who is directly responsible to the people. Actually he/she is highest elected official in any State, with the power that trumps any other. Some debate as to where the Federal marshals kick in. But they are not elected so I will say the Sheriff is the only cop that has the right to exist constitutionally. I can argue for a limited roles roles for the FBI and CIA. VERY LIMITED. And I posted about an positive experience with a cop that pulled me over. Actually two times. But, I am actually lucky to be in a place where the abuses are not the same as elsewhere. The trend here is following on the same path. :( Cops are pigs and the Sheriff is not far behind.

To azxd, I will say this. You claim we should not blame the cop for what their bosses tell them to do. That is a dangerous path my friend. I'll pull the stats later but, I am sure I can say with confidence that the cops kill, cripple , and injure more innocent people, then the other way around. The police cannot be trusted and they have proven it time and time again. Oh yeah. I happen to know the Weaver family. Most of them are neighbors of mine.

If a person takes an oath I hold them to it. All cops swear an oath to the constitution, like our soldiers, like I did and most people here. When a man breaks his oath he no longer has credibility. Like the word of a man and a handshake, that still means something to me. Because we are surrounded by broken promises and oaths. How can we trust in good faith, someone that can't even protect the weak and affirm their oaths day to day??

Until the Police can police the Police....And stand there in unison PROTECTING someones constitutional/inherent rights, they lose. And by proxy, the rare good cop is poisoned because he refuses to stand up. So, yes all cops are bad, just by supporting the corruptness and failing to complain on payday. There is NO reason for a cop to be in full battle dress at ANY event in America. This nation was founded and sustained on distrust of government. They are not there for peace. They are not to keep the calm, they are there to crush descent. As has been said 100 times around here, they are under no obligation to protect you, the courts have said so on more than one occasion. Yet, they swear to the constitution. Go figure.

Now, If I am confronted without a court order..... I will shoot on site. Yeah I know this forum is watched. Break the law in my yard, you will die. Say please and kiss the feet of a sovereign and produce a warrant? yep, I have coffee on.
Obama sends you sepcial rep for supporting the distortions he wishes to install within his version of justice :D

[azxd]

fixed it for you. Anarchism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) is a political philosophy with a wealthy intellectual history, varying schools of thought, and many respectable advocates. Anarchism =/= hooliganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooliganism).

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8351/tomwoodsanarchist.png

;)
Is this from the Rules for Radicals playbook ?

[azxd]

Who are they defending again?
Those who are unable or afraid to defend themselves, perhaps ... What do you think ?

[azxd]

I know this is redundant but if only one person reads it it's worth the redundancy, sorry!

STANDING ARMIES. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance110.html)
Does this address local and State authority, or just Federal issues ?

[noneedtoaggress]

Is this from the Rules for Radicals playbook ?

Is that seriously your response?

[azxd]

Is that seriously your response?
Read Obama's books .. Look at his positions, he hates cops and authority, just like a few people on this forum.

[PaulConventionWV]

Would you prefer a non-aggresive show of force that has the intent to keep order, or would you prefer they just start shooting at people ?
I saw none of the latter ... Did you ?

I would prefer they not be there in the first place. Who said anything about them "keeping order."

[noneedtoaggress]

Read Obama's books .. Look at his positions, he hates cops and authority, just like a few people on this forum.

LOL. You have got to be joking.

[A Son of Liberty]

You do realize that Ron and Tom are great friends, right?

[noneedtoaggress]

Doesn't matter. OBAMA IS AN ANARCHIST WHO HATES LAW AND ORDER AND AUTHORITY AND YOU BONG SMOKING COP HATERS LOVE OBAMA AND ARE VOTING FOR HIM, now get me a picture of Obama in his armored presidential vehicle. :D

[azxd]

You do realize that Ron and Tom are great friends, right?
And he's telling those who support no government that they should vote for Ron ... Smart move for Ron to pick up that group, but not smart for those who are true anarchists, because Ron has no intention of closing the doors, completely.

[azxd]

Doesn't matter. OBAMA IS AN ANARCHIST WHO HATES LAW AND ORDER AND AUTHORITY AND YOU BONG SMOKING COP HATERS LOVE OBAMA AND ARE VOTING FOR HIM, now get me a picture of Obama in his armored presidential vehicle. :D
Glad to see you are figuring it out :D

[pcosmar]

Glad to see you are figuring it out :D

You are just Trolling,,
Right?

No one could be that intellectually dishonest by accident.

[noneedtoaggress]

And he's telling those who support no government that they should vote for Ron ... Smart move for Ron to pick up that group, but not smart for those who are true anarchists, because Ron has no intention of closing the doors, completely.



"I wanted to see the brilliant writings of theoreticians such as Rothbard translated into practical political action. To my surprise there was a strong constituency for these views, and I was elected to four terms. Even a person familiar with only a small part of the vast work Rothbard has produced during his career knows his attitude towards politics. Like Mises, he labels the State as the "social apparatus of violent oppression.". - Ron Paul


"Governments by their very nature, notoriously compete with liberty, even when the stated purpose for establishing a particular government is to protect liberty." - Ron Paul, Introduction to Liberty Defined


"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written." Ron Paul, End the Fed


Ron: Well, I tell you what... I don't critisize Lysander....
but... and his point is very well taken.
Maybe someday we'll mature to that point.


MHD: "What do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than a return to the Constitution? Just like ..."

Ron Paul: "Great. Fine. And I think that's really what my goal is."


"Taxation is theft" - Ron Paul

;)

[azxd]

I would prefer they not be there in the first place. Who said anything about them "keeping order."It would be nice to not have anyone to control situations except us people ... Can we have a riot now ?
The perfect excuse ... Film at 11

Another bomb exploded at a pro/anti abortion rally.
Many people dead.

Details developing.
Anarchists take to the streets.
Property destroyed.

[noneedtoaggress]

Glad to see you are figuring it out :D

Thanx, bro.

[azxd]

It's what people do !!!

[A Son of Liberty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

[noneedtoaggress]

It would be nice to not have anyone to control situations except us people ... Can we have a riot now ?
The perfect excuse ... Film at 11

Another bomb exploded at a pro/anti abortion rally.
Many people dead.

Details developing.
Anarchists take to the streets.
Property destroyed.

OBAMAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SLbNP1Ct3D4/Tl_eRYZYi8I/AAAAAAAAB8o/CgbKTjPjOJI/s1600/yelling%2Bat%2Bthe%2Bsky.jpg

[azxd]

;)
YEP ... The true anarchist is going to be disappointed during a Paul Presidency.

[noneedtoaggress]

I'm sure Obama would be very disappointed.

[azxd]

I'm sure Obama would be very disappointed.
I hope so !!!

[PaulConventionWV]

Federal LE examples do not make Barney Fife a bad guy, do they ?
That's my main point ... I'll not stereotype anyone because of their job, political affiliation, skin color, or any other method that can be used to describe another.

While patterns can be seen, those patterns do not equate to all who fit the pattern being the same.

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul would agree with this thought, and I also believe many of the founding fathers would agree that we are each different, and possessing the ability to do good.

Nobody's saying who they are is bad because of what they do. It's what they do that is the problem.

[PaulConventionWV]

Again,, that would be the people and the Constitution. Or it should be.

And it should be at the immediately local level.

Pcosmar, I see this comment and I am reminded of the time when you showed your support for the Supreme Court being the court of last resort. It is a bit contradictory to say we need all government to be at the local level but then say that the Constitution provides the power for 9 men to set national precedents based on a single case. In fact, it is contradictory to say that the Constitution applies to all governments, national and local, and then support local government. By definition, that is not local government. The states have their own Constitutions for a reason and you seem to think there should be one national precedent set in some cases instead of letting isolated incidents just be isolated incidents. To me, this just shows that you don't really know what you want.

[PaulConventionWV]

Those who are unable or afraid to defend themselves, perhaps ... What do you think ?

You said they were defending "law abiding citizens". First of all, until physical acts are committed, no defense is necessary, so they are not defending. Secondly, if acts are committed, they have usually been shown to be the aggressors. The argument that they are there to protect you is complete bunk. They commit way more atrocities than they have prevented, especially at riot scenes.

Even if they did prevent atrocities from occurring, that doesn't justify something based on flawed policy. Like RP said, you could have a police officer in every home, cameras in ever house, and you MIGHT prevent a crime. It still doesn't justify the flawed policy of a police state.

[pcosmar]

Pcosmar, I see this comment and I am reminded of the time when you showed your support for the Supreme Court being the court of last resort. It is a bit contradictory to say we need all government to be at the local level but then say that the Constitution provides the power for 9 men to set national precedents based on a single case. In fact, it is contradictory to say that the Constitution applies to all governments, national and local, and then support local government. By definition, that is not local government. The states have their own Constitutions for a reason and you seem to think there should be one national precedent set in some cases instead of letting isolated incidents just be isolated incidents. To me, this just shows that you don't really know what you want.

No,, not really. Local laws are fine as long as they do not infringe on individual rights and liberties.
Laws that are both accepted AND ENFORCED by the local community.

If those laws are infringing on or violating someones individual rights and local or state courts fail to address this then the Supreme Court is supposed to..
Supposed to.

I do however, believe that the Supreme court has been corrupted as well.
But that is another issue to address.. My statements were regarding how it is supposed to work.

The supreme court is not meant to make laws, only to enforce the Supreme Law (Constitution) and to strike down laws that conflict with it.

They are also the Mediator between the states,, to resolve conflicts between them if they arise.

Law enforcement is still the responsibility and duty of the people directly.
if people don't enforce (bad) laws they are essentially nullified.
If people violate the rights of others,, it is for the courts to resolve.. locally, state and supreme.
In that order.

[PaulConventionWV]

Read Obama's books .. Look at his positions, he hates cops and authority, just like a few people on this forum.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Lucky for Obama, he doesn't have to deal with cops and authority because he is immune now. I suspect that's what he meant. Even if that is not the case, it doesn't mean he isn't pulling your leg.

[PaulConventionWV]

And he's telling those who support no government that they should vote for Ron ... Smart move for Ron to pick up that group, but not smart for those who are true anarchists, because Ron has no intention of closing the doors, completely.

Anarchy corrupts people. What law do police officers and Obama abide by? What do they have in common? Answer: neither of them are held accountable for their actions. They live in a state of anarchy for themselves and it feels oh so good.

[PaulConventionWV]

;)

Ron Paul is not an anarchist. Why you have to keep using these quotes when they don't even support that conclusion is beyond me. You are clearly indicating that Ron Paul is an anarchist, which he is not.

[PaulConventionWV]

No,, not really. Local laws are fine as long as they do not infringe on individual rights and liberties.
Laws that are both accepted AND ENFORCED by the local community.

If those laws are infringing on or violating someones individual rights and local or state courts fail to address this then the Supreme Court is supposed to..
Supposed to.

I do however, believe that the Supreme court has been corrupted as well.
But that is another issue to address.. My statements were regarding how it is supposed to work.

The supreme court is not meant to make laws, only to enforce the Supreme Law (Constitution) and to strike down laws that conflict with it.

But the reasons you gave are the exact reasons why the Supreme Court should not have that power in the first place. Just like LE, it is inherently corrupt to entrust power into somebody who is "supposed" to be held to a higher standard than the normal person. I don't care who you are, setting a national precedent when you could leave it isolated at the state or local level is inherently corrupt because any wrong decision gets applied to everyone, not just to those who were affected by the case itself.

[azxd]

Nobody's saying who they are is bad because of what they do. It's what they do that is the problem.
Some in this thread have said almost exactly that, and that is what I take issue with ... Stereotypes are bad.

[azxd]

Pcosmar, I see this comment and I am reminded of the time when you showed your support for the Supreme Court being the court of last resort. It is a bit contradictory to say we need all government to be at the local level but then say that the Constitution provides the power for 9 men to set national precedents based on a single case. In fact, it is contradictory to say that the Constitution applies to all governments, national and local, and then support local government. By definition, that is not local government. The states have their own Constitutions for a reason and you seem to think there should be one national precedent set in some cases instead of letting isolated incidents just be isolated incidents. To me, this just shows that you don't really know what you want.
On this I believe we agree ... State Constitutions should have precidence over the U.S. Constitution in matters pertaining to the State.

[azxd]

You said they were defending "law abiding citizens". First of all, until physical acts are committed, no defense is necessary, so they are not defending. Secondly, if acts are committed, they have usually been shown to be the aggressors. The argument that they are there to protect you is complete bunk. They commit way more atrocities than they have prevented, especially at riot scenes.

Even if they did prevent atrocities from occurring, that doesn't justify something based on flawed policy. Like RP said, you could have a police officer in every home, cameras in ever house, and you MIGHT prevent a crime. It still doesn't justify the flawed policy of a police state.
The boy scout motto might apply in this situation.

When it is suspected that trouble and unrest might develop because of the strong emotional ties some people have to what they believe, is it wrong to be prepared to defend self and others, if one chooses to enter into a situation where a conflict of emotion might occur ?

I don't proclaim to know what is right in every situation ... But I do know that no LE presence, anywhere, invites trouble.

Perhaps that is what some desire ?

[azxd]

If people violate the rights of others,, it is for the courts to resolve.. locally, state and supreme.
In that order.
This cannot happen if the victim is dead, and it does not matter who caused the death.

Each of us must be willing to defend self and family, but not all are capable of doing so without help.

[azxd]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Lucky for Obama, he doesn't have to deal with cops and authority because he is immune now. I suspect that's what he meant. Even if that is not the case, it doesn't mean he isn't pulling your leg.
I was referring to his statemente before he was more than a community organizer, and the idea of him being immune to lawful authority, while having great potential, should never be taken as fact.

[azxd]

Ron Paul is not an anarchist. Why you have to keep using these quotes when they don't even support that conclusion is beyond me. You are clearly indicating that Ron Paul is an anarchist, which he is not.
Thank You !!!

[AGRP]

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops2.jpg

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/VACops.jpg

All that equipment and NO BADGES.

[heavenlyboy34]

Those who are unable or afraid to defend themselves, perhaps ... What do you think ?
Wrong. They aren't obligated by any law to do so. To the extent they do it, it's purely a subjective whim. "To Protect And Serve" is just a propaganda slogan, not a real policy.

[azxd]

Wrong. They aren't obligated by any law to do so. To the extent they do it, it's purely a subjective whim. "To Protect And Serve" is just a propaganda slogan, not a real policy.
I know exactly what the courts decided about the obligation to protect.
Is that what this is being reduced to ?

[thetruthhurtsthefed]

All of us without a job should apply to be officers of the law, so when SHTF we know not to follow unconstitutional orders against citizens.

hmmmmmmmm.....infiltrate and implode from within........tojan horse style

[tod evans]

Does this address local and State authority, or just Federal issues ?

Take a few minuets to read the link it'll help you understand what was going on during the 1700's when our forefathers were discussing the constitution.

[heavenlyboy34]

I know exactly what the courts decided about the obligation to protect.
Is that what this is being reduced to ?
"Reduced to"? What else is there? If you mean "am I cutting through the crap and rhetoric to get to the heart of the matter?", yes.

[TheTexan]

I do think Ron Paul may be an anarchist. He's a firm believer in natural rights, and the only political philosophy consistent with natural rights is anarchism.

Rights cannot be created or destroyed. But they can be stolen. The state cannot exist without stolen rights. Any authority the state claims to have is directly derived from the theft of your natural rights, and I think Dr. Paul understands this.

If you follow the philosophy of natural rights to its logical conclusion, you will invariably come to anarchism. The State is not needed, and in fact the only reason a State ever comes into existence, is because of the human desire to control others.

[noneedtoaggress]

Ron Paul is not an anarchist. Why you have to keep using these quotes when they don't even support that conclusion is beyond me. You are clearly indicating that Ron Paul is an anarchist, which he is not.

If you think (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324852-I-m-done-making-excuses-for-the-State&p=3698889&viewfull=1#post3698889) I'm getting into (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324852-I-m-done-making-excuses-for-the-State&p=3697442&viewfull=1#post3697442) an argument (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324852-I-m-done-making-excuses-for-the-State&p=3699725&viewfull=1#post3699725) with you (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324852-I-m-done-making-excuses-for-the-State&p=3699314&viewfull=1#post3699314) about this again, you're mistaken (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324852-I-m-done-making-excuses-for-the-State&p=3696460&viewfull=1#post3696460).

[noneedtoaggress]

Thank You !!!

Why don't you back it up (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?291050-Ron-Paul-amp-voluntarists)? Shouldn't be difficult considering you'd be arguing with a bunch of bong smokers who don't even realize they're really Obama supporters.

[Anti Federalist]

Command and Conquer

http://www.theagitator.com/2012/03/08/command-and-conquer/

Thursday, March 8th, 2012 Strong editorial in the Richmond Times-Dispatch about the show of police force at the Virginia state capital during last weekend’s abortion rights protest:

Saturday’s display of force is far from unique in the commonwealth. Homeland Security grants lavished on local police departments in the wake of 9/11 have only encouraged the tendency to blur the distinction between civilian and military operations. A number of Virginia localities now have armored assault vehicles such as the Lenco Bearcat — an 8-ton, quarter-million-dollar behemoth with half-inch steel plating. Among those localities is Warren County, a bucolic community of 40,000 people with an average of one homicide every three years — not exactly Hell’s Kitchen.

But the grants only accelerated an existing — and troubling — trend that started many years ago. Law enforcement exists to protect the rights of the citizens; maintaining order is a means to that end, not the end in itself. Police officers decked out like combat patrols in Fallujah send a far different, far more threatening message: that they have come not to protect and to serve, but to command and to conquer. Saturday’s events in the capital of Virginia stain a state with a reputation as the cradle of democracy.

The editorial begins with a quote from a publication regular readers might recognize.

[pcosmar]

I own a Bearcat.
http://www.snowmobile.com/specs/arctic-cat/utility/2005/bearcat-reg/widetrack.html

I really wish that would call that thing something else,,

like FreedomWhomper or Volksquasher or something.