Manufacturing matters -- there is no other way out of our economic mess

[Anti Federalist]

I agree with this.

Prosperity does not come from selling each other lawyers and porno.



Manufacturing matters -- there is no other way out of our economic mess

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/01/manufacturing-matters-there-is-no-other-way-out-our-economic-mess/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fopinion+%28Internal +-+Opinion+-+Mixed%29

President Obama and his Republican challengers don’t agree about much, but they do agree that manufacturing matters and that resurrecting America’s factories will be at the center of the fall presidential campaign.

They're all right.

America’s economy can’t be turned around, and middle class prosperity can't be saved, without it.

Since 2000, the U.S. economy has grown only 1.6 percent annually—not its 3 percent potential, defined by productivity and population growth—and it has not created a single new job. But for an alarming increase in prime-working-age adults choosing not to look for work, unemployment would be at 13 percent.

Economists agree that weak demand for U.S.-made products are the cause of our woes. And dependence on foreign oil and manufacturing are at the center of this mess.

America's trade deficit is nearly $600 billion or about 3.8 percent of GDP. -- Each dollar that goes abroad to pay for imports but does not return to purchase U.S. exports equals lost demand and lost jobs.

Consider this: If we could eliminate the trade deficit, GDP would increase $1 trillion, and 10 million new jobs would be created.

Currently, oil accounts for 45 percent of the trade deficit, and manufactures from China, Germany and Japan the rest.

Oil imports are about 9 million barrels a day and gasoline consumption is about the same. Increased domestic production from the Gulf, Alaska and other offshore deposits could cut imports in half, and genuinely exploiting fuel efficiency opportunities and better use of natural gas for transportation in cities and heating could do much of the rest.

Regarding manufacturing, there are so many bogus arguments being offered.

Improvements in productivity have certainly cut manufacturing employment in Europe, the United States and China, but improvements in productivity occur in all sectors, every year—those are the very essence of progress.

Agriculture dramatically improved productivity in the 20th Century but Americans did not give up farming.

If the United States redressed three quarters of its $650 billion deficit in manufacturers, someone would have to make that stuff, even if at higher levels of efficiency than in the past. The U.S. economy would be 5 percent larger and policymakers would be worrying about a shortage of workers.

China’s low wages are an advantage in labor-intensive activities, but U.S. technology should be an advantage in others. That’s how Germany remains a leader in factory jobs and exports with a wage structure that is higher than the United States. So, unless the Germans are smarter than Americans, we should be able to do it too.

America is a leader in service exports, but despite concerted efforts to increase those through trade agreements over the last three decades, the U.S. export surplus in business services is about $80 billion—the United States is not going to do much more than double that, even if it manages to crack the highly protected Chinese and other Asian markets.

Modern domestic economies may be dominated by services, but most of those services don’t move in international commerce—consider movie theaters, dry cleaners and plumbers. Whereas the international economy, like the U.S. trade deficit, is dominated by commodities and manufacturers. Wishful thinking by academics, pundits and Wall Street financiers won’t change that.

Moreover, manufacturing contributes to the dynamics of growth in other ways. It pays higher wages and supports two-thirds of all R&D, which generates the intellectual property that supports America’s higher standard of living.

Without manufacturing, much of the innovation in services would not happen. For example, were Intel and IBM not U.S.-based companies, it is highly doubtful that Apple, Microsoft and business solutions software companies—who do the lion's share of R&D in the services sector—would be American-based firms today.

America’s principal rivals, the governments of China, Germany and Japan have long recognized these facts, and managed their currencies, tax structures and business incentives to ensure competitive manufacturing sectors.

In a perfect world, Americans would not have to compete with rivals that interfere with the market, as those governments do, but alas this is not the best of all possible worlds.

Messrs Obama, Romney and Santorum are delivering a simple message—manufacturing matters, and Americans must do what it takes to compete in the world as they find it.

[pcosmar]

And people want to push Romney who stripped out factories and sold them off to make his millions.

:confused:

[Anti Federalist]

And people want to push Romney who stripped out factories and sold them off to make his millions.

:confused:

Itz teh drain bamage.


Cos' there is teh brain damage.

Sorry to be ugly but that is the only way to describe it.

Nobody wants Mittens, yet everybody votes for him, since they think he will be the only one to "beat Obama" when it is demonstrably and visibly clear that there is not a dime's worth of difference between the two.



Romney a Virginia Shoo-In, but Few Like Him

http://www.newser.com/story/140941/romney-a-virginia-shoo-in-but-few-like-him.html

(Newser) – Mitt Romney has a more than healthy lead in Virginia, despite the fact that not a whole lot of people there actually like him. Romney leads Ron Paul 56% to 21% in a new Roanoke College poll—Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich didn't manage to make it onto the ballot in the state. Even if Santorum and Gingrich were included, Romney would still be slightly ahead, with 31% to Santorum's 27%.

But Romney's favorability in the state is at just 36%—only nine percentage points above Obama's rating among GOP primary voters. Rick Santorum scored highest in that metric, with 47%, while Paul (29%) and Gingrich (25%) fared even worse than Romney. "You would expect at least one of them to top the 50% approval rating mark, but none of them did" said Roanoke's polling director. "Whichever candidate gets the GOP nomination, he will have a lot of work to do in Virginia."

[LibertyEagle]

Yes, but that doesn't mean the extra cost added to a product because of labor demands should be, in essence, subsidized by government protectionism, either.


And people want to push Romney who stripped out factories and sold them off to make his millions.

:confused:

Some of them probably needed to be. If they weren't profitable and there didn't seem to be a way to make them so, no reasonable person would pour money into them just to prop them up.

[pcosmar]

Yes, but that doesn't mean the extra cost added to a product because of labor demands should be, in essence, subsidized by government protectionism, either.



Some of them probably needed to be. If they weren't profitable and there didn't seem to be a way to make them so, no reasonable person would pour money into them just to prop them up.

Profitable???

2 thoughts off the top of my head,,
First,, Why were they not "profitable".. Because of regulation? Because of "treaties" like NAFTA? Because of Taxes?

second,, How much profit is enough?
Many of these companies did make a modest profit as well as providing employment to many (that in itself being a "profit"),, Just not enough to satisfy those that bought them up through hostile takeovers.
It was "more Profitable" to strip them out and sell them off for a quick buck than receive small profits over years.

I don't buy the explanation that this was just "market forces". I think that it was an intentional part of the destruction of our economy.

[NoOneButPaul]

We need to get over the manufacturing because the fact is we can't compete with China...

We can't compete with the labor laws, the gross human rights violations, the totalitarian state, or the enviromental regulations (China has none).

We can't compete with 36hour work days, we can't compete when they have sweatshops full of Children.

We just can't compete...

The way you bring jobs back is by slashing the corporate tax (Right now it's at 35% and Paul wants it down to 15%, personally i'd like to see it at 5-10%)

With our minimum wage around 8$ an hour we're basically telling the world we are 8$ an hour employees, and while China can produce the widgets and gizmos at sweatshop speed the average American, no matter how stupid, is still fairly smart on a global scale.

If we slash the corporate tax rate I think we'd see an outpouring of jobs that corporations couldn't sell off to the lowest bidder (think office jobs, accountants, marketing, PR, whatever).

Combine Paul's 15% corp. tax with an eventual 0% income tax and I think people would be shocked at how quickly jobs would grow in this country... but the days of competing in manufacturing are all but over...

[Pericles]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[Anti Federalist]

The Germans do it, and they have fixed costs and socialist government spending and taxes at least as high as we do, in total.


We need to get over the manufacturing because the fact is we can't compete with China...

We can't compete with the labor laws, the gross human rights violations, the totalitarian state, or the enviromental regulations (China has none).

We can't compete with 36hour work days, we can't compete when they have sweatshops full of Children.

We just can't compete...

The way you bring jobs back is by slashing the corporate tax (Right now it's at 35% and Paul wants it down to 15%, personally i'd like to see it at 5-10%)

With our minimum wage around 8$ an hour we're basically telling the world we are 8$ an hour employees, and while China can produce the widgets and gizmos at sweatshop speed the average American, no matter how stupid, is still fairly smart on a global scale.

If we slash the corporate tax rate I think we'd see an outpouring of jobs that corporations couldn't sell off to the lowest bidder (think office jobs, accountants, marketing, PR, whatever).

Combine Paul's 15% corp. tax with an eventual 0% income tax and I think people would be shocked at how quickly jobs would grow in this country... but the days of competing in manufacturing are all but over...

[Demigod]

I see Germany is mentioned so I think a little clarification needs to be given.


Germany has what is basically a "private market" of almost 500 million people ( The EU ).

Because of that private market they have a bigger export than import and that leads to them having interest rates on loans on the same level as the USA and as things are going they will even have lower ones soon.


Here is a little example of the "private market" which i mentioned above:

Greece just got a 150 billion bailout ( I think that it had 6+% interest on it ).From that bailout they are supposed to spend 6,5 billion on military equipment from which 70% is German made (airplanes,tanks,infantry equipment,submarines ) and 30% is French (frigates).

Lets for the sake of argument say that this 6,5 million came from Germany ( but in either case Germany gave a lot more than 6,5 billion ).So Germany took a 6,5 billion loan to at 1,5% interest and then gave it to the Greeks at 6+% interest in the same time the money they gave them come back to Germany in the form of weapon purchases.

This is not something new this is standard procedure.This is how Greece got to the point to owe 120 % of its GDP.France and Germany took loans at low interest gave it to Greece at a higher interest and then made the Greeks spend most of the money on French and German products while giving enough to the ordinary people to think that everything is OK.When the Greek meltdown started they owed 120% of GDP.With the bailouts now they owe 160% of the GDP and in the same time their manufacturing production lowered by over 30% .

If you have an industry they destroy it with EU regulative.For example Slovenia entered the EU with a good manufacturing base and almost no debt.With environment protection laws the forced them to transfer all factories to non-Eu states (mostly Serbia and other E.European countries from where you can only export to the EU with a tariff because they are not in the EU so no free trade ).Then so the Slovenian people can have the same standard of living their government ( because no one wants angry citizens in election times ) started to barrow and barrow.Now the credit companies started to slash their credit rating and their interest is going up.

An example for this EU regulative destruction of country's economies is the new "Chicken law"

It says that every chicken must have 3 square meters of space,regular exposure to fresh air and sunlight plus a place to sleep made out of natural materials (straw).If these conditions are not fulfilled than you can not export to other EU countries.

The very next week half the countries in the EU can not export.Except for a few "special" countries where companies managed to fulfill the criteria.


IN THE EU THERE ARE ONLY 2 STATES THAN CAN GROW.

GERMANY AND FRANCE

They have basically split the industries in half.France gets agriculture,light industry,part of the military sector ( and was the biggest receiver of EU funds until lately ) ,while Germany gets the rest of the industry.


Everyone else has 2 other roles to play.Either you are the servants that maintain their vacation villas,sell them raw materials ,have the dirty and cheap industries that no one wants (textile,iron and coal production ) or get credits from them to buy their stuff.


And of course the best example of how the EU works is this one:

Bulgaria the poorest nation in the EU with a monthly pay of 350 euros has in the last 5 years given 2,6 billion euros to the EU funds and in the same time received only 2,3 billion euros.The reason they were given back less that what they payed in was because they were corrupt and would just steal all the money that the EU would give them :D.


Imagine how would it be that instead of corporations writing the laws (like you have it in the USA ) a few of the more powerful states ( New York,California,Texas ) joined and started writing laws just to protect their own citizens and economies.I bet that they would have booming economies with large manufacturing as well.

[specsaregood]

We need to get over the manufacturing because the fact is we can't compete with China...
We can't compete with the labor laws, the gross human rights violations, the totalitarian state, or the enviromental regulations (China has none).
We can't compete with 36hour work days, we can't compete when they have sweatshops full of Children.
We just can't compete...
The way you bring jobs back is by slashing the corporate tax (Right now it's at 35% and Paul wants it down to 15%, personally i'd like to see it at 5-10%)
With our minimum wage around 8$ an hour we're basically telling the world we are 8$ an hour employees, and while China can produce the widgets and gizmos at sweatshop speed the average American, no matter how stupid, is still fairly smart on a global scale.

If we slash the corporate tax rate I think we'd see an outpouring of jobs that corporations couldn't sell off to the lowest bidder (think office jobs, accountants, marketing, PR, whatever).

Combine Paul's 15% corp. tax with an eventual 0% income tax and I think people would be shocked at how quickly jobs would grow in this country... but the days of competing in manufacturing are all but over...

All that sounds great but it misses the biggest issue of all. We will never be able to compete on price as long as we the USD is propped up by OPEC. It creates an artificial demand/value for the USD. It will always be cheaper to issue more debt than it is to produce materials because the rest of the world HAS to sell us stuff in order to buy oil.

[Boss]

The protectionist undertones and the implied government intervention in the market are as present as ever in this article. Also, little attention is paid to the benefits of globalism and free market trading across borders.

I completely disagree with this article. I think RP would also.

[Diurdi]

Manufacturing is absolutely not required. It can be any form of production. The main goal is to switch from exporting dollars to exporting goods and services.


I think some here are sort of dreaming about the "old days". Well they're over. If the US wants to be prosperous, it can't go back to an economy focused around low skill manufacturing.

[Anti Federalist]

I think some here are sort of dreaming about the "old days". Well they're over. If the US wants to be prosperous, it can't go back to an economy focused around low skill manufacturing.

Make a machine press die from scratch, and tell me again, how "low skill" manufacturing is.

How is it that every nation in the world that is on the verge of surpassing the US in economic terms, is doing it by manufacturing stuff?

[HOLLYWOOD]

This is what the US State Department does Daily... Recent regime change in Egypt, because Hosni Mubarak was going to use his US funds to buy Russian Aircraft after the Israelis told the US not to sell the F-15E Strike Eagles. US State Department launders $10's of Billions annually of taxpayer money back to US sectors, whether it's Oil exploration to the mighty Military Industrial Complex.
I see Germany is mentioned so I think a little clarification needs to be given.


Germany has what is basically a "private market" of almost 500 million people ( The EU ).

Because of that private market they have a bigger export than import and that leads to them having interest rates on loans on the same level as the USA and as things are going they will even have lower ones soon.


Here is a little example of the "private market" which i mentioned above:

Greece just got a 150 billion bailout ( I think that it had 6+% interest on it ).From that bailout they are supposed to spend 6,5 billion on military equipment from which 70% is German made (airplanes,tanks,infantry equipment,submarines ) and 30% is French (frigates).

Lets for the sake of argument say that this 6,5 million came from Germany ( but in either case Germany gave a lot more than 6,5 billion ).So Germany took a 6,5 billion loan to at 1,5% interest and then gave it to the Greeks at 6+% interest in the same time the money they gave them come back to Germany in the form of weapon purchases.

[ZenBowman]

Well, its pretty hard for Americans to compete using the China model.

And using the Germany model is not necessarily any easier, the German government does subsidize costs for manufacturers (through universal healthcare and public education), and its not realistic to expect Americans to be able to compete with that.

So what model do you suggest the US follows in order to compete on the world stage?

[Seraphim]

Agriculture. Agriculture...Did I mention agriculture?

Let China make the trinkets.

If the US produces most of it's domestic food consuption and exports mass amounts of food to the world - the US would go back to being a creditor nation rather quickly.

The commodity super cycle is kicking into high gear and the most prosperous of us all will be producing and investing in FOOD.

The Champions of Tomorrow have a portfolio consisting of;

Agriculture, energy, precious metals, well positioned real estate.

If the USA simply stopped subsizing corporate farms and deregulated energy (oil) and mining the wealth machine would be kicked back into high gear and real income levels would sky rocket.

The USA does not even need to make the most/best cars anymore - leave that to the Asians, they do a great job of it.

FOOD! BECOME THE FOOD SUPERPOWER!

[donnay]

Well, its pretty hard for Americans to compete using the China model.

And using the Germany model is not necessarily any easier, the German government does subsidize costs for manufacturers (through universal healthcare and public education), and its not realistic to expect Americans to be able to compete with that.

So what model do you suggest the US follows in order to compete on the world stage?

A constitutional model! Tariffs and duties equally! Boycott Chinese-made junk, and teach people that Chinese-made goods are made from the blood, sweat and tears of slave labor.

Here's photos of children being tied up like animals while parents work, because they cannot afford to have babysitters. I know people who wouldn't treat their dogs like this.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1625794812497&id=17ba8ecfd00711113756535137d68f4d&url=http%3a%2f%2fimages.mirror.co.uk%2fupl%2fm4%2f feb2010%2f9%2f3%2ftwo-year-old-boy-chained-to-a-pole-while-his-father-works-nearby-pic-rex-features-859354497.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/21/article-0-093A920B000005DC-735_634x453.jpg

[Hospitaller]

A Chinese man is a human

An American man is a human

But an American man has the burden of big government and heavy regulations limiting his productivity.

[ZenBowman]

A constitutional model! Tariffs and duties equally! Boycott Chinese-made junk, and teach people that Chinese-made goods are made from the blood, sweat and tears of slave labor.


I try to buy American when I'm looking for higher-end products, both for the quality and because of what you mentioned, even if it costs a little extra. But as far as low-end stuff goes, China has won that market.


Here's photos of children being tied up like animals while parents work, because they cannot afford to have babysitters. I know people who wouldn't treat their dogs like this.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1625794812497&id=17ba8ecfd00711113756535137d68f4d&url=http%3a%2f%2fimages.mirror.co.uk%2fupl%2fm4%2f feb2010%2f9%2f3%2ftwo-year-old-boy-chained-to-a-pole-while-his-father-works-nearby-pic-rex-features-859354497.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/21/article-0-093A920B000005DC-735_634x453.jpg

Very sad indeed, but imagine what they'd do if they didn't have those jobs, it would probably be even worse.

[Blueskies]

But an American man has the burden of big government and heavy regulations limiting his productivity.

Average Chinese manufacturing worker works for about $125/month, with no vacations, time off, limited work breaks.

You going to get an American man to work for that?

[donnay]

I try to buy American when I'm looking for higher-end products, both for the quality and because of what you mentioned, even if it costs a little extra. But as far as low-end stuff goes, China has won that market.



Very sad indeed, but imagine what they'd do if they didn't have those jobs, it would probably be even worse.



China only wins if we continue to buy all the junk. Our job is to educate people of these inhumane practices! We do these people no favors by continually being consumers to slave labor!! Plus, people have got to learn to live within their means, they do not have to have the latest and greats trinkets and bobble-heads. Stop being brainwashed by Madison Avenue! Consumerism blinds us while they sink this country into a hole and fire sale it off for pennies on the dollar.

Buy local and support local communities.

"A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...."

[azxd]

Make a machine press die from scratch, and tell me again, how "low skill" manufacturing is.

How is it that every nation in the world that is on the verge of surpassing the US in economic terms, is doing it by manufacturing stuff?
Excellent point ... We sold most of our technology to other nations that now compete with us in a global market.

At times I wish the whole system would collapse, so people in this country, by necessity, would wake up and realize they can get by with less entertainment and a bit more productivity and hard work.

[donnay]

Average Chinese manufacturing worker works for about $125/month, with no vacations, time off, limited work breaks.

You going to get an American man to work for that?

So it's okay if we turn a blind eye to the inhumane practices, while pleasing ourselves with the latest and greatest fads, geegaws, trinkets or iPods? Where is the outrage that these fellow human beings are being treated like animals? Where is the outrage that American companies are taking advantage of these people and making billions of dollars while these people live in squalor and their children are chained up like dogs?

Just remember, soon conditions like this will be worldwide if we don't stop it here and now!

Just like people enjoying a good seafood dinner--how many fishermen died so you can enjoy your baked halibut?

Get government out of business and allow the people to be the regulators and you wouldn't see these types of conditions!

[azxd]

Average Chinese manufacturing worker works for about $125/month, with no vacations, time off, limited work breaks.

You going to get an American man to work for that?
If our economy and population growth were the same, people would line up to garner such wealth.

The average chinese worked has doubled their income in the last 10 years ... Do you really think they are complaining ?

[azxd]

So it's okay if we turn a blind eye to the inhumane practices, while pleasing ourselves with the latest and greatest fads, geegaws, trinkets or iPods? Where is the outrage that these fellow human beings are being treated like animals? Where is the outrage that American companies are taking advantage of these people and making billions of dollars while these people live in squalor and their children are chained up like dogs?

Just remember, soon conditions like this will be worldwide if we don't stop it here and now!

Just like people enjoying a good seafood dinner--how many fishermen died so you can enjoy your baked halibut?

Get government out of business and allow the people to be the regulators and you wouldn't see these type of conditions!
I suppose you're in favor of invading that country and spreading our form of democracy ... Like we have been doing in the middle-East !!!

[Blueskies]

So it's okay if we turn a blind eye to the inhumane practices, while pleasing ourselves with the latest and greatest fads, geegaws, trinkets or iPods? Where is the outrage that these fellow human beings are being treated like animals? Where is the outrage that American companies are taking advantage of these people and making billions of dollars while these people live in squalor and their children are chained up like dogs?

Here's the thing about sweat shop workers: they love it. They love working for $125/month. Beats starving to death in the countryside.

So, you want to take away their jobs and let them go back to starving in the countryside like under Mao? Who's positions is more humane buddy?

[donnay]

I suppose you're in favor of invading that country and spreading our form of democracy ... Like we have been doing in the middle-East !!!

Nope not at all. Just do not do business with countries who treat their countrymen like garbage. We are supposed to be humanitarians, it is not humanitarian to bomb a country because they do not live by our standards. We have to lead by example.

[Blueskies]

Every American is in the top 1% of the global population.

Yet, you want to take away the opportunities of the other 99% of the globe just so we can benefit low class workers in the US? Nice.

[donnay]

Here's the thing about sweat shop workers: they love it. They love working for $125/month. Beats starving to death in the countryside.

So, you want to take away their jobs and let them go back to starving in the countryside like under Mao? Who's positions is more humane buddy?

It is the governments by definition that control these people. If the people were free without government controls and regulations, no one would starve! If we had a truly free market, not crony capitalism we could lead by example.

[donnay]

Every American is in the top 1% of the global population.

Yet, you want to take away the opportunities of the other 99% of the globe just so we can benefit low class workers in the US? Nice.

Huh? It would benefit them if their government wasn't reaping the rewards off the blood, sweat and tears of their countrymen. It is by demand these conditions continue.

[Blueskies]

It is the governments by definition that control these people. If the people were free without government controls and regulations, no one would starve! If we had a truly free market, not crony capitalism we could lead by example.

Under a truly free market, low skilled work would go to the lowest skilled workers that will do it for the lowest price.

These people happen to be Chinese, not American.

Think about it this way: Let's say you're going to build a factory in the US. Forget about all the other countries. Where would you build your factory?

Would you build it in say Manhattan? Or the Midwest?

Well, you would obviously chose the Midwest. First, you can pay your workers a much lower salary--living expenses in Manhattan are much greater than they are in say, Indiana. Second, the cost to build your factory would be much less in the Midwest than in Manhattan as land in NYC is very expensive and difficult to come by.

Try to think about it like that. The US is Manhattan. China is Indiana.

[Blueskies]

Huh? It would benefit them if their government wasn't reaping the rewards off the blood, sweat and tears of their countrymen. It is by demand these conditions continue.

If you care about their living conditions, you are better off to continue to do business with them. Over time, their standard of living will increase due to wealth inflow, and they will demand a more fair deal from their government. The countries on earth with the most corrupt government are also the poorest.

[Anti Federalist]

America is a union shop furniture shop with high labor costs, high overhead and high taxes.

China is the state prison down the road that just put its prisoners to work making the same type of furniture that your union shop is making.



Under a truly free market, low skilled work would go to the lowest skilled workers that will do it for the lowest price.

These people happen to be Chinese, not American.

Think about it this way: Let's say you're going to build a factory in the US. Forget about all the other countries. Where would you build your factory?

Would you build it in say Manhattan? Or the Midwest?

Well, you would obviously chose the Midwest. First, you can pay your workers a much lower salary--living expenses in Manhattan are much greater than they are in say, Indiana. Second, the cost to build your factory would be much less in the Midwest than in Manhattan as land in NYC is very expensive and difficult to come by.

Try to think about it like that. The US is Manhattan. China is Indiana.

[azxd]

Nope not at all. Just do not do business with countries who treat their countrymen like garbage. We are supposed to be humanitarians, it is not humanitarian to bomb a country because they do not live by our standards. We have to lead by example.
Right ... So don't blow them up, just isolate ourselves from those we disagree with ... Got it !!!

We're kind of doing that with Iran ... Yes ?

[azxd]

It is the governments by definition that control these people. If the people were free without government controls and regulations, no one would starve! If we had a truly free market, not crony capitalism we could lead by example.
Lead by example, by not doing business with them LOL
Did you really just write this, after what you previously wrote :confused: no really ... I'm not confused, but I think you might be a bit hypocritical in your perspective.

[donnay]

If you care about their living conditions, you are better off to continue to do business with them. Over time, their standard of living will increase due to wealth inflow, and they will demand a more fair deal from their government. The countries on earth with the most corrupt government are also the poorest.

Then I guess we're next. Governments and their involvement in the peoples lives are the very reason why people are poor.

[azxd]

Huh? It would benefit them if their government wasn't reaping the rewards off the blood, sweat and tears of their countrymen. It is by demand these conditions continue.
Stop paying taxes, and tell me how our government treats you ... The bleeding heart knows no bounds.

[donnay]

Right ... So don't blow them up, just isolate ourselves from those we disagree with ... Got it !!!

We're kind of doing that with Iran ... Yes ?

I am not saying impose sanctions, which we are doing to Iran which is an act of war. Simply boycotting by people, not governments.

[donnay]

Stop paying taxes, and tell me how our government treats you ... The bleeding heart knows no bounds.

That's right, as long as governments control every aspect of our lives there is no liberty.

[Cutlerzzz]

We should make it law that the people with the highest opportunity cost have to do the work. It will create the most work.

[donnay]

We should make it law that the people with the highest opportunity cost have to do the work. It will create the most work.

*SIGH* I haven't the slightest idea what you are saying...but making laws isn't the solution. Getting government out of our business is!

[azxd]

I am not saying impose sanctions, which we are doing to Iran which is an act of war. Simply boycotting by people, not governments.
Do what you want ... Such action is countered by someone else spending their dollars more wisely.

Do you know of a leader who will say Buy American, and justify why spending more money is economically good for them ?

[azxd]

That's right, as long as governments control every aspect of our lives there is no liberty.
So, in your World, we are no better than China, just different.

[azxd]

Do you know of a leader who will say Buy American, and justify why spending more money is economically good for them ?
YES
Yes I DO !!!

Obamacare is the perfect example of a medical system that is destined to become more corrupt than the current system ... And it is mandated that you spend money for the economic good of all.

Socialism is such a great thing /sarcasm

[Anti Federalist]

Do you know of a leader who will say Buy American, and justify why spending more money is economically good for them ?

Ummm...


Originally Posted by Ron Paul
"I drive a Ford," Paul said. "I wanted to buy domestic...

[donnay]

Do what you want ... Such action is countered by someone else spending their dollars more wisely.

Do you know of a leader who will say Buy American, and justify why spending more money is economically good for them ?

I am a leader. I am an individual who practices what I preach. I boycott Chinese-made junk. Besides the cronies in DC are not our 'leaders' they are subservient to the people, or did you forget that?

[Cutlerzzz]

*SIGH* I haven't the slightest idea what you are saying...but making laws isn't the solution. Getting government out of our business is!

You have no idea what this means?


We should make it law that the people with the highest opportunity cost have to do the work. It will create the most work.

[Carson]

There is no way to really get ahead at manufacturing.

There is no way to really get ahead in the stock market.

There is no way to really get ahead owning commodities.

I suppose there is luck but scratch hard work. They've killed the dream.


They really need to face the facts. There back door socialism has killed the ecconomy.

No matter how much hard earned money people can gather together to build their world the way they want others can fire up the fake money presses to dictate their will.

When I started looking into where the money was coming from to buy off the politicians and subvert the immigration laws of the world, I came across what may be the root of many of our problems. Fiat Money.


Maybe this will help make the danger of fiat money clear.

Imagine you and me are setting across from each other. We create enough money to represent all of the world's wealth. Each one of us has one SUPER Dollar in front of him.

You own half of everything and so do I.

I'm the government though. I get bribed into creating a Central Bank.

You're not doing what I want you to be doing so I print up myself eight more SUPER Dollars to manipulate you with.

All of a sudden your SUPER Dollar only represents one tenth of the wealth of the world!

That isn't the only thing though. You need to get busy and get to work because YOU'VE BEEN STIFFED with the bill for the money I PRINTED UP to get YOU TO DO what I WANTED.

That to me represents what has been happening to the economy, and us, and why so many of our occupations just can't keep up with the fake money presses.

[azxd]

Ummm...

Originally Posted by Ron Paul
"I drive a Ford," Paul said. "I wanted to buy domestic...

He said that and I agree with him ... But he didn't justify why others should spend more money for something that is made in the United States.

[donnay]

So, in your World, we are no better than China, just different.

You can cut out the condescending crap, okay? In the REAL world every human being simply by virtue of being born has an unalienable right. Our government was set up by our founders to be limited. Not to be in every aspect of our lives--like the communist/socialist/fascist countries. China is a communist country or have you forgotten that?

[azxd]

I am a leader. I am an individual who practices what I preach. I boycott Chinese-made junk. Besides the cronies in DC are not our 'leaders' they are subservient to the people, or did you forget that?
I am not impressed by words on the Internet ... Sorry !!!

Yet I do agree with your second sentence, and NO I did not forget that, nor did you bring about a miraculous revelation about how another can not counter your spending habits..

[azxd]

You can cut out the condescending crap, okay? In the REAL world every human being simply by virtue of being born has an unalienable right. Our government was set up by our founders to be limited. Not to be in every aspect of our lives--like the communist/socialist/fascist countries. China is a communist country or have you forgotten that?
Not all governments are like ours, and provided for protection of those rights ... So what do you want ?
Do you want us to change, or do you want to ignore others, or is it trade with them ... You seem to be jumping around.

And I know what China is.
It's you who seem to not know what you want, but if you figure it out, perhaps I'll stop being so condescending toward the confusion pattern your self-elected leadership presents.

[rockerrockstar]

Free trade is the problem. You can't trade with countries that don't share our standards and expect our workers to compete with them. We need something to make it so we can compete via Tariffs or other means. I don't want to change our country into a third world country to compete.

[azxd]

Free trade is the problem. You can't trade with countries that don't share our standards and expect our workers to compete with them. We need something to make it so we can compete via Tariffs or other means. I don't want to change our country into a third world country to compete.
And I don't see anyone supporting turning another country into this one, by force ... Heck, some people don't even want to trade, regardless of circumstances.
Individual boycott rings a bell.

But I bet they're typing into a box of imported parts, and driving globally created vehicles without complaining :D

[Anti Federalist]

Free trade is the problem. You can't trade with countries that don't share our standards and expect our workers to compete with them. We need something to make it so we can compete via Tariffs or other means. I don't want to change our country into a third world country to compete.

That's basically what globalized "free trade" agreements have us doing right now.

A race to the bottom.

[donnay]

Not all governments are like ours, and provided for protection of those rights ... So what do you want ?
Do you want us to change, or do you want to ignore others, or is it trade with them ... You seem to be jumping around.

And I know what China is.
It's you who seem to not know what you want, but if you figure it out, perhaps I'll stop being so condescending toward the confusion pattern your self-elected leadership presents.

You the one who is confusing the issues. I made no point whatsoever, about government intervention with other countries, I talked about simply taking a stand and stop buying Chinese slave labor merchandise. Each and every one of us can make a difference when we VOTE with our wallets.

The government that we have currently is NOT the government our founders set up. We need to clean up our backyard first and then heed the warnings of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world." ~ George Washington

[donnay]

Free trade is the problem. You can't trade with countries that don't share our standards and expect our workers to compete with them. We need something to make it so we can compete via Tariffs or other means. I don't want to change our country into a third world country to compete.

Ah yes, the Orwellian word--'Free Trade.' It's 'Free Trade' for the crony capitalist indeed. The Constitution clearly stipulates government's role on imports.

The agenda is to blow out our economy and take this country right down to third world status! If people don't wake up, we shall be there inside of 5 years.

[azxd]

You the one who is confusing the issues. I made no point whatsoever, about government intervention with other countries, I talked about simply taking a stand and stop buying Chinese slave labor merchandise. Each and every one of us can make a difference when we VOTE with our wallets.

The government that we have currently is NOT the government our founders set up. We need to clean up our backyard first and then heed the warnings of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world." ~ George Washington
Yet you do use these products ... You're just being selective in your argument.

Go ahead, take the time to open up the box you're typing into ... It's full of globally sourced parts.
Got a vehicle, go look at it as well ... Heck even todays Harley's have foreign made parts in them (brake pad material has about a 99% probability of being of Chinese origin).

[azxd]

If people don't wake up, we shall be there inside of 5 years.
Time-frame is off, reality just hasn't set in ;)

I've watched many people pack bags and head back to Mexico ... I can't blame them, there economy is stronger than our is.

[donnay]

Yet you do use these products ... You're just being selective in your argument.

Go ahead, take the time to open up the box you're typing into ... It's full of globally sourced parts.
Got a vehicle, go look at it as well ... Heck even todays Harley's have foreign made parts in them (brake pad material has about a 99% probability of being of Chinese origin).

Yes, that is because of our government ignored the Constitution, opening up the door to China and snookered the people into believing 'Free Trade' would help our economy when in fact it just wrecked it.

I remember and totally agreed with Ross Perot. That giant sucking sound...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls&feature=player_embedded

[azxd]

Yes, that is because of our government ignored the Constitution, opening up the door to China and snookered the people into believing 'Free Trade' would help our economy when in fact it just wrecked it.

I remember and totally agreed with Ross Perot. That giant sucking sound...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls&feature=player_embedded
Well at least you can admit said use ... But it's sad that you will blame the government for your choices, when you have said it's your choice.

[donnay]

Well at least you can admit said use ... But it's sad that you will blame the government for your choices, when you have said it's your choice.

Do you speak English? There must be a generational gap here. You need to type in complete sentences so people can understand what it is you are trying to say. *SIGH*

[tod evans]

Sounds like there's more discussion about everything except manufacturing....

As a country we are no longer self sufficient....We are relying on the world to supply necessary components for our war machine as well as our life style.
I think we need a few more foundries to accompany our software developers, a few more carpenters instead of "law enforcement" etc..

If we continue to consume other countries tangible goods and offer none of our own in return the scales will tip.....and not in our favor.

Smoke-n-mirrors will only get us so far......The world is starting to notice, more and more countries who "manufacture" are looking for something to barter for besides the devalued dollar.

Two big ticket items in the news that could be manufactured here that would stop a major amount of money hemorrhaging are;
1) Cars/Motorized equipment [politically correct]
2) Drugs [politically incorrect]

The world's changing and if we can't figure out how to be self sufficient again I'm afraid we'll be in for a rude awakening.

[ZenBowman]

Ah yes, the Orwellian word--'Free Trade.' It's 'Free Trade' for the crony capitalist indeed. The Constitution clearly stipulates government's role on imports.

The agenda is to blow out our economy and take this country right down to third world status! If people don't wake up, we shall be there inside of 5 years.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you wanted to get government out of the way. Well, here you are contradicting yourself, slapping a general tariff is more government involvement, not less.

Specific tariffs towards countries you do not like (China, Russia, etc) is even worse, because like sanctions, they are an act of war.

What specific government policy do you support on trade? Lets say we end all the trade treaties, in essence we will have free trade, we will still be able to buy cheaper Chinese stuff - so what do you support?

[Carson]

I am not impressed by words on the Internet ... Sorry !!!

Yet I do agree with your second sentence, and NO I did not forget that, nor did you bring about a miraculous revelation about how another can not counter your spending habits..

I am!.. but mostly it is the pictures.

[donnay]

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you wanted to get government out of the way. Well, here you are contradicting yourself, slapping a general tariff is more government involvement, not less.

Specific tariffs towards countries you do not like (China, Russia, etc) is even worse, because like sanctions, they are an act of war.

What specific government policy do you support on trade? Lets say we end all the trade treaties, in essence we will have free trade, we will still be able to buy cheaper Chinese stuff - so what do you support?

Equal tariffs to all countries. In the constitution is doesn't imply that we should give cheaper rates to different countries. It was straight across the board tariffs and duties. We have created a monster by selectively choosing whom we will do business with and whom we will not.


Article I section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

[ZenBowman]

Equal tariffs to all countries. In the constitution is doesn't imply that we should give cheaper rates to different countries. It was straight across the board tariffs and duties. We have created a monster by selectively choosing whom we will do business with and whom we will not.


But that contradicts your previous claim that we should get government out of the way.

Moreover, the US is not an island, there are many things we need from the outside world, tariffs could easily set off a trade war, which is why Paul opposes them.



Conflicting and inconsistent views on trade policy result largely from a lack of understanding of basic economic principles. Free trade is not a zero-sum game where some countries benefit and others inevitably suffer. On the contrary, true free trade by definition benefits both parties. Free trade is the process of free people engaging in market activity without government interference such as tariffs or managed-trade agreements. In a true free market, individuals and companies do business voluntarily, which means they believe they will be better off as a result of a transaction. Tariffs, taxes, and duties upset the balance, because governments add costs to the calculation which make doing business less attractive. Similarly, so-called managed trade agreements like WTO favor certain business interests and trading nations over others, which reduces the mutual benefit inherent in true free trade.

[donnay]

But that contradicts your previous claim that we should get government out of the way.

Moreover, the US is not an island, there are many things we need from the outside world, tariffs could easily set off a trade war, which is why Paul opposes them.

You are absolutely right, I am wrong. I understand what you are saying now.

[cavalier973]

*Manufacturing in itself does not create wealth or economic growth. Trade, on the other hand, always creates wealth for the parties involved (or else the trade wouldn't happen). The U.S. manufactures around 20% of everything made in the world, which is more than any other nation, though China is catching up. Our problem is that what we mainly manufacture is products for the war machine. China makes all the "cheap junk" that we would be making, but are not because our manufacturing sector is incentivised to make tanks instead of washing machines.

*It's interesting that the topic purports (as I infer) to be about manufacturing productivity, and yet the focus is manufacturing jobs, which is a different subject. If manufacturing jobs are what we want, then there is a faster way to get them than protectionist policies: have the government outlaw computers and machines. Most jobs are lost to technological innovation, not evil foreigners evilly paying their workers evil low wages. The population of farmers in this nation has suffered devastating losses over the years, and yet we produce more food than ever. We produce so much food that the gov't pays farmers to suspend growing crops to prop up food prices. The reason? Better farming methods and technology. Manufacturing can be accomplished with fewer workers for the same reason.

*An American earning $50 an hour can be a better deal for a manufacturer than a Chinese person making $1 a day, based on the relative productivity of each worker. China is catching up to the U.S. in manufacturing productivity, which shouldn't be strange, since they have three times the population as the U.S. What should have people scratching their heads is why the U.S., with a third of the workers, still out manufactures China (the answer is that the U.S. worker has skills and tools which the Chinese worker is only now developing).

*Implementing protectionist policies does not increase the nation's total wealth; it merely transfers it from one segment (service workers) to another (manufacturing workers and government). What is proposed is essentially to assess a fine against a fast food worker making, perhaps, $8 an hour in order to protect the job of someone making $30 an hour (through higher prices of the goods the fast food worker wishes to purchase).

*Revenue tariffs are a preferable method of funding the government to an income tax or a consumption tax (like the Fair Tax), but protective tariffs (along with import quotas and subsidies) are as harmful as any high rate tax, disrupting the flow of goods and services, and incentivising investment into particular industries that may or may not be economically optimal.

*Protectionist policies require an activist government, one that interferes in people's personal choices regarding their own economic situation, in order to please certain interest groups and non-interested third parties who feel that they will not suffer the consequences of government intervention.

*The argument that protectionist policies are necessary in order to "level the playing field" with trading partners who themselves engage in protectionist policies is not valid. That another nation maintains confiscatory tax rates (tariffs are a form of tax), and heavy regulation should not compel us to ask our gov't to be as oppressive. That the Chinese government is robbing its own citizens to benefit U.S. consumers is no reason for Americans to ask Uncle Sam to rob themselves in return.

*Free Trade (true free trade, not the "managed trade" that describes the treaties the government has been passing) is the essence of the free market. Saying that one likes the free market, but does not care for free trade, is like someone who declares their support for abstinence in sexual matters, but just can't abide by the idea of chastity.

[Bossobass]

I've never gone with the silly nationalistic "Buy American" slogan as my purchasing guide. I have always preferred to "Buy The Best One".

Myth #1: "The US can't compete with China because of cheap labor."

Example: A cars cost includes 5% labor costs. Shipping a car from Asia costs 7%. End of myth #1.

Myth #2: "America can't compete because its workers are unionized, lazy and stupid."

Data: American workers are the most productive force ever to live on this planet. Longest work week, least vacation time, least sick days, highest output per dollar, highest output per man hour, etc. Americans are the most innovative and inventive force that has ever lived on this planet. From false teeth to the space shuttle, from the assembly line to the personal computer, from the artificial heart to the internet... no other group comes close. End of Myth #2

Myth #3: "American companies can't overcome regulations and taxes."


How are American companies competing against overseas manufacturers with dirt-cheap payrolls? Successful CEOs say that building in the United States provides advantages foreign competitors often can't match: speed, flexibility and access to the highly capable U.S. workforce. The Specialty Blades factory in Staunton, Va., for instance, makes blades destined for diverse uses, from scalpels to the little gadgets that spit out gas station receipts. The stars of the company's operation are engineers, who have worked with surgeons to develop a number of sophisticated tools, such as a circular cutting and stapling device to reduce the invasiveness of digestive-tract surgery. "U.S. engineering is flat-out way more developed than in China for this function," says the company's CEO, Peter Harris.


The factory floor--as big as 16 football fields--is noisy with the clatter and grind of huge lathes and drills shaping steel plates, gears and rods for giant yellow bulldozers that will churn through major construction sites. Business is brisk, and new workers have come on board, armed with welding torches and, just as often, the controls to high-tech robotic manufacturing equipment. It takes sophistication to build the king of the dirt pile, Caterpillar's iconic D-series track-type tractor. From the company's plants in Illinois, the bulldozers are shipped throughout the country and the world.

There are many, many examples of US companies that are thriving. Use a search engine for the facts.

So, what is the problem? It's a 2-headed hydra; 1):
Small Businesses Still Starved for Capital and 2)
Free Trade Not So Free

With all the trillions of US Gov borrowed money thrown at bankrupt banks and the military industrial complex, there is no capital for small business, which account for more than 1/2 of US GDP and Employment. Small businesses are routinely told to "Use your credit card" at an average 16% interest.

And, Free Trade Agreements? Don't even get me started. I've said this many times and it always falls on deaf ears. The only practical Free Trade Agreement is "Tariffs with Reciprocity". Instead we have criminal tactics with impunity by foreigners against the US Market and tariffs, taxes, VATs, duties, quotas and every other conceivable means blocking the US from foreign markets.

I've been in business since the late 70s. I did my first major export deal to Saudi Arabia when I was 23 years old, and I learned that Jews hate Arabs hate Jews was the only hurdle to the deal. Since then, I've experienced the tipping of the scales against the US on so blatant and egregious a scale as to have made it IMPOSSIBLE to compete in many markets.

Example: I recently received a request for a unique product that I designed and built. The request cam from India. I said "OK, let me look into it and I'll get back to you." I was soon to discover that my "product category" has a 100% tax levied on all imports. To that, you add VAT, duties and freight and my price jumps 130%. Conversely, if that product was in India and I wanted to purchase it, I would wire the $$ and add freight and it would be here via air freight inside of a week.

Reciprocity lowers or eliminates tariffs with a reciprocal trading partner (That's what "TRADE" means) and tariffs are the proper weapon to equalize subsidized dumping, property theft, espionage and all other supposedly illegal practices and one way barriers.

Of course, this subject is vastly more complex and that's no doubt why these threads drone on forever. I really don't care who believes what. I just know what my own experiences have been over the past 3 decades, FWIW. I'm just tired of hearing that the Chinese (who are great copiers, but took 2000 years longer than everyone else to discover the wheel) cheap labor, US regulations, etc., are the reasons we can't compete globally.

It's capital and unfair trade at the top of the list.

Bosso

[specsaregood]

It's capital and unfair trade at the top of the list.
Bosso

Bosso, there is nothing you can manufacture that the rest of the world needs more than USD. They don't need your product they need our cash in order to buy oil.

[onlyrp]

Messrs Obama, Romney and Santorum are delivering a simple message—manufacturing matters, and Americans must do what it takes to compete in the world as they find it.

competition matters, but why is manufacturing the only way?

[pcosmar]

competition matters, but why is manufacturing the only way?

Because if you manufacture NOTHING (Produce Nothing) what do you have to compete with?

Nothing.

[onlyrp]

We need to get over the manufacturing because the fact is we can't compete with China...

We can't compete with the labor laws, the gross human rights violations, the totalitarian state, or the enviromental regulations (China has none).

We can't compete with 36hour work days, we can't compete when they have sweatshops full of Children.

I agree there, we "can" but we chose not to, we have too much pride and regard for "human rights" to be competitive. We can also choose to reduce consumption, but that'll never happen, because we're Americans and appreciation is for the homeless. Whatever is available, we are entitled to it, we'll go into debt for it, we don't care whether we can afford it, we just buy it, say we need it and blame the government or the rich if we can't have it. Otherwise, we'd long been satisfied that we've exceeded the lifestyles of virtually every decade in the past.

[onlyrp]

Because if you manufacture NOTHING (Produce Nothing) what do you have to compete with?

Nothing.

White collar services, entertainment, technology, knowledge, information.

You seem to suggest only producers of material deserve to be compensated.

[pcosmar]

White collar services, entertainment, technology, knowledge, information.

You seem to suggest only producers of material deserve to be compensated.

I said nothing about "being compensated",, Not that Fake money is much of a compensation.

I said Produce. An end product. A tangible and useful item.
Services and entertainment do not build wealth.. They are what wealth is spent on.

[onlyrp]

I said nothing about "being compensated",, Not that Fake money is much of a compensation.

I said Produce. An end product. A tangible and useful item.
Services and entertainment do not build wealth.. They are what wealth is spent on.

how is spending wealth from one not the same as building it for another?
Entertainment is what people spend money on, so how is that not a means of accumulating wealth?
Does the entertainment industry deserve to go away so we can preserve wealth? Or are they a good part of our economy?

[pcosmar]

how is spending wealth from one not the same as building it for another?
Entertainment is what people spend money on, so how is that not a means of accumulating wealth?
Does the entertainment industry deserve to go away so we can preserve wealth? Or are they a good part of our economy?

Services and entertainment have their place, as do all of the arts.

But is is products that build wealth. Whether Agricultural,(wheat,corn,wool,Beef,etc) or tangible goods.(Steel,copper,lumber etc. and products built with them)

[cavalier973]

Services and entertainment do not build wealth.. They are what wealth is spent on.

If one can make a profit by providing a particular service, then providing that service certainly "builds wealth." Wealth is more than tangible goods. An experienced doctor has enormous quantities of wealth--in his head, as does a car mechanic and a music artist. Castro thought he had seized the wealth of Cuba when he stole the houses and valuables of rich Cubans. What he really did was drive Cuba's wealth to the U.S., when the rich Cubans immigrated there. The Cubans changed Miami from being a sleepy Southern town into a thriving metropolis, based on what was in their heads.

Trade always creates wealth. Manufacturing very often destroys it, by wasting resources building things people don't actually want or are able to purchase (like tanks and bombs).

[cavalier973]

Because if you manufacture NOTHING (Produce Nothing) what do you have to compete with?

Nothing.

No, you have your knowledge, skills, and abilities. Being able to perceive a better way to arrange things (placement of machines on the factory floor, or of furniture in an office) can be a quite valuable skill.

But I infer from your statement that you are looking at nations as collectives, rather than as individuals, each pursuing his own agenda. A doctor certainly "manufactures" nothing, but he can be well compensated for having the knowledge of how the human body works, and how to help it get over sickness. He manufactures nothing, and yet he does have something with which to "compete".

An entertainer enhances life rather than sustains it, surely; but that does not mean that what he does isn't wealth creating. If people value it, then wealth is created by definition.
Who is to say that manufacturing cheap, plastic toys is a more important activity than telling entertaining and compelling stories? If an individual can get by in life without ever "manufacturing products", then a nation can, as well.

[pcosmar]

If one can make a profit by providing a particular service, then providing that service certainly "builds wealth." Wealth is more than tangible goods. An experienced doctor has enormous quantities of wealth--in his head, as does a car mechanic and a music artist. Castro thought he had seized the wealth of Cuba when he stole the houses and valuables of rich Cubans. What he really did was drive Cuba's wealth to the U.S., when the rich Cubans immigrated there. The Cubans changed Miami from being a sleepy Southern town into a thriving metropolis, based on what was in their heads.

Trade always creates wealth. Manufacturing very often destroys it, by wasting resources building things people don't actually want or are able to purchase (like tanks and bombs).

I agree with you statement about trade, and wasting resources is waste..Period.

However profit for the sake of profit is not what builds wealth,, though it may make one wealthy.
if that was the case,, then theft and fraud are legitimate wealth builders. They are profitable..
Look at the Rothschild Empire. They have accumulated wealth through fraud and theft.
But that is accumulated wealth. That is not building wealth. That is taking the wealth of others.




But I infer from your statement that you are looking at nations as collectives, rather than as individuals, each pursuing his own agenda. .


This discussion was about building wealth as a nation.
not just putting "bucks in your pocket".
This nation got wealthy due to what we produced and sold (trade) to the world.
It has been losing wealth as we have stopped (or slowed) producing.

[oyarde]

Because if you manufacture NOTHING (Produce Nothing) what do you have to compete with?

Nothing. Correct , mnfg is how real wealth is produced. Simple as that , everything else is trading paper ?

[phill4paul]

One cannot impose rules and regulations on ones own manufacturing entities and allow unfettered access to market by foreign entities unbound by these same rules and regulations.
As simple as it gets.

[cavalier973]

But putting restrictions on foreign access is simply laying down another layer of regulation. Better to remove the regulations and taxes on our own industry, and keep free trade.

Foreigners aren't "taking advantage of us" by selling us things. Trade is not zero-sum.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/robinson-crusoe-and-free-trade/

"Robinson Crusoe discovered that his island was suitable for both hunting and agriculture. So he and Friday soon developed a 12-hour work schedule that en*sured them an adequate supply of food. But it is not generally known that they once had an opportunity to secure the same amount of food at a 25 per cent reduction in their labor — and turned it down!

As the fable goes, one day a canoe arrived from a foreign island. Since there was plenty of game but no agriculture on that island, the foreigner wanted to trade game for vegetables. He offered to supply Robinson and Friday with all the game they needed — and thus to cut six hours from their working day. In re*turn, they were to give him two baskets of vegetables each day. This would increase the time they devoted to agriculture from six hours to nine hours. Thus the for*eign trade would result in a net saving of three hours of labor each day for both Robinson and Friday."

[ForLiberty2012]

Why are people so obsessed with manufacturing? This is probably the same debate that was going on when farmers were "losing" their jobs when technology advancements cut the need for people to have to labor all day. As some have already suggested, we can't compete with manufacturing in China. If we lower taxes I think that could help some, but because of globalization, businesses will always find a way to maximize profit and minimize costs... Whether it's China, Taiwan, Indonesia... etc. Quite frankly, we wouldn't have all the cheap products if it weren't for China and the like. We wouldn't have our iPhones... we wouldn't be able to afford so many products we take for granted. However, people that are narrow-sighted don't see the world like that. They simply say, well China is stealing our jobs, therefore stealing our prosperity. Free trade is what creates prosperity. The fact we can buy an iPhone for $500 or a pair of shoes for under $20 is what creates prosperity. If we made iPhones here, they would cost twice as much, and barely anyone would want to buy them and apple probably wouldn't be able to generate the capital to continue making better, cheaper products.

The whole theory of "buying American" and "China is stealing our jobs" is so flawed.

And import/export doesn't account for services we provide online, like facebook, twitter, google, amazon, etc... and yes porn too! We own the internet's profits and it's because there is actually "free trade" online in a sense. The government has stayed away from the internet for the most part, until recently, with SOPA/PIPA/ACTA and now we are going to have to start paying taxes online, so we can basically kiss that goodbye. Soon they'll be charging us for bandwidth usage. It's an inevitable cycle where government always tries to steal prosperity.

It's always a government problem. Can't believe lefties never understand that. They always want to punish people who create prosperity and create the jobs they are working at. Ugh, damnit I'm annoyed again... Time for another shot of freedom.

[cavalier973]

If manufacturing creates wealth, would we not do well to eliminate the giant free trade market that is the United States, and compel each state to build its own cars, its own refrigerators, its own computers? With the citizens of each state now having to manufacture consumer goods (rather than purchase them from the citizens of other states) wouldn't we see an absolute rise in manufacturing, and thus, wealth?

http://blog.mises.org/7889/free-trade-versus-free-trade-agreements/

"Free trade requires no treaties. All that is needed is to remove (unilaterally or multilaterally) artificial barriers to trade: England did this in the mid-nineteenth century, Hong Kong in the mid-twentieth century. In 1789, the Constitution of the United States need just fifty-four words to establish free trade among the states."

[tod evans]

Look to history, either our own or any nation who has been successful......If we keep on as we are we're going to fail.

It's not just "one thing" causing us to be in the shape we're in, it's the cumulative years of many things.

Self sufficiency as a nation is pretty important especially considering we have either declared war on or agreed to support half the people on the planet.

How much longer do any of you think the rest of the world is going to be dictated to by a class of "White collar services, entertainment, technology, knowledge, information"[providers]?

If we are going to be a nation of "white collars", government employees and soldiers we'd better get busy accumulating some loot from our wars because of the three professions I just listed "soldier" is the only one who could actually produce wealth for the nation.

For those who argue that "service providers" can produce wealth..........To whom do you propose to provide these services to?

"Blue collar" workers who made things are quickly becoming a thing of the past and those workers by and large are now wards of the state, either in government funded jobs or on some sort of "assistance". Not that long ago our country had a few "white collars" for every xxxx "blue collars" and the "service providers", "entertainers" and government fed off of their labors. Now we're trying to feed off other nations labor as some sort of "ruling class". It's never worked in the past so why do we think it'll work now?

[cavalier973]

http://mises.org/daily/1429

"Another issue is slavery. People email me and say, "Your theories would be true if everyone had a free market, but China employs slave labor."

Okay, this is a valid point. If you don't want to indirectly encourage slave labor, then by all means, don't buy products that may have been produced under not entirely voluntary circumstances. All I'm claiming here, though, is that don't kid yourself that you're making yourself wealthier by doing so. If you choose to buy a product from a US firm for $10 that you could import from Asia for $5, then you're down $5 on the decision. Of course, maybe that's what you want to do; more power to you. But don't think you're making America "richer," and don't run to the government to force your decision on the rest of us."

[phill4paul]

Globalization is as poor an excuse for a country to pursue with regards to a manufacturing base as is the argument for a one world government.

[Cutlerzzz]

.
Services and entertainment do not build wealth.. They are what wealth is spent on.

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

[tod evans]

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Manufacturing has to do with more than "wealth", if we follow Mises school of thought we must look to the actual value of the manufacturing process not just the amount of FRN chits attached to the end product.

[Cutlerzzz]

Manufacturing has to do with more than "wealth", if we follow Mises school of thought we must look to the actual value of the manufacturing process not just the amount of FRN chits attached to the end product.

No, it doesn't. Value is subjective. If people value entertainment over manufacturing, than it is more valuable.

[pcosmar]

No, it doesn't. Value is subjective. If people value entertainment over manufacturing, than it is more valuable.

Till they get hungry, or cold.

[onlyrp]

Look to history, either our own or any nation who has been successful......If we keep on as we are we're going to fail.

It's not just "one thing" causing us to be in the shape we're in, it's the cumulative years of many things.


the angry scapegoaters are gonna hate you for this.

[onlyrp]

Till they get hungry, or cold.

that's a fair point, but only until. If their basics are met, almost everything else is subjective, do you agree?

[tod evans]

the angry scapegoaters are gonna hate you for this.

Well shucks.............g-ahead and hate me then.

[Anti Federalist]

Because the outsourcing of manufacturing is what is driving the push into Africa for resources that is propping up people like Kony, that you got so irate over, that ended up with you getting banned.

That's why.

Non interventionism includes economic non interventionism, to do for ourselves as much as we can.

The tired quote about "when goods don't cross borders soldiers will" is demonstrably false.

In fact, soldiers are much more apt to cross borders when there is an economic incentive to do so.

We have been invading our trading partners for well over a 100 years now.


Why are people so obsessed with manufacturing? This is probably the same debate that was going on when farmers were "losing" their jobs when technology advancements cut the need for people to have to labor all day. As some have already suggested, we can't compete with manufacturing in China. If we lower taxes I think that could help some, but because of globalization, businesses will always find a way to maximize profit and minimize costs... Whether it's China, Taiwan, Indonesia... etc. Quite frankly, we wouldn't have all the cheap products if it weren't for China and the like. We wouldn't have our iPhones... we wouldn't be able to afford so many products we take for granted. However, people that are narrow-sighted don't see the world like that. They simply say, well China is stealing our jobs, therefore stealing our prosperity. Free trade is what creates prosperity. The fact we can buy an iPhone for $500 or a pair of shoes for under $20 is what creates prosperity. If we made iPhones here, they would cost twice as much, and barely anyone would want to buy them and apple probably wouldn't be able to generate the capital to continue making better, cheaper products.

The whole theory of "buying American" and "China is stealing our jobs" is so flawed.

And import/export doesn't account for services we provide online, like facebook, twitter, google, amazon, etc... and yes porn too! We own the internet's profits and it's because there is actually "free trade" online in a sense. The government has stayed away from the internet for the most part, until recently, with SOPA/PIPA/ACTA and now we are going to have to start paying taxes online, so we can basically kiss that goodbye. Soon they'll be charging us for bandwidth usage. It's an inevitable cycle where government always tries to steal prosperity.

It's always a government problem. Can't believe lefties never understand that. They always want to punish people who create prosperity and create the jobs they are working at. Ugh, damnit I'm annoyed again... Time for another shot of freedom.

[awake]

Production of things people actually want is the key. No one wants more governemnt except the people who make a living stealing by it.

[Anti Federalist]

Production of things people actually want is the key. No one wants more governemnt except the people who make a living stealing by it.

Exactly.

Which is why government should be doing its consitutional duty and not, as it has over the last few decades, making it next to impossible to produce the things people want.

[onlyrp]

Manufacturing has to do with more than "wealth", if we follow Mises school of thought we must look to the actual value of the manufacturing process not just the amount of FRN chits attached to the end product.

No, that would be the Smith and Marx labor theory of value. Free market theory says we should only value things based on what the market has assigned its dollar value for, based on supply and demand.

[onlyrp]

Because the outsourcing of manufacturing is what is driving the push into Africa for resources that is propping up people like Kony, that you got so irate over, that ended up with you getting banned.

That's why.

Non interventionism includes economic non interventionism, to do for ourselves as much as we can.

The tired quote about "when goods don't cross borders soldiers will" is demonstrably false.

In fact, soldiers are much more apt to cross borders when there is an economic incentive to do so.

We have been invading our trading partners for well over a 100 years now.

How is "non interventionism, economic and military" not simply "isolationism"? Isn't Ron Paul's whole beef with the word "isolationism" because he wants to trade with everybody? What's wrong with pushing into Africa for resources? I agree, soldiers will more happily cross borders when they see the incentive for them.

[Zippyjuan]

When you move beyond meeting basic human needs like food, water, clothing and shelter does it truely matter what a country or business produces if people are willing and able to purchase what they produce? Maybe we don't need financial advisors or televisions but there are people do want these and are willing to pay for them. If the government is to enact laws to encourage one form of business over another- say manufacturing vs the service economy- should they intervene in the market and do so? Would that promote misallocation of capital?

As for trade, in actuality, trading partners are less likely to go to war against each other.

[onlyrp]

When you move beyond meeting basic human needs like food, water, clothing and shelter does it truely matter what a country or business produces if people are willing and able to purchase what they produce?

Nope, it doesn't matter.

[Anti Federalist]

When you move beyond meeting basic human needs like food, water, clothing and shelter does it truely matter what a country or business produces if people are willing and able to purchase what they produce? Maybe we don't need financial advisors or televisions but there are people do want these and are willing to pay for them. If the government is to enact laws to encourage one form of business over another- say manufacturing vs the service economy- should they intervene in the market and do so? Would that promote misallocation of capital?

We don't make any televisions.

No intervention, or minimal intervention in the form of constitutional tariffs would favor all industry not just manufacturing.


As for trade, in actuality, trading partners are less likely to go to war against each other.

Justify that.

We've been invading our trading partners for over a century.

Europe traded with each other prior to both World Wars.

We've been trading with the Middle East for decades and invading and meddling there for just as long.

[onlyrp]

We don't make any televisions.

No intervention, or minimal intervention in the form of constitutional tariffs would favor all industry not just manufacturing.


How does protectionism favor manufacturing if it protects domestic products from competition, leaving them with little incentive to improve while Americans pay more for products? Oh wait, you're right, it DOES favor manufacturing, at the expense of hurting consumers because they pay more, with less improvements.



Justify that.

We've been invading our trading partners for over a century.

Europe traded with each other prior to both World Wars.

We've been trading with the Middle East for decades and invading and meddling there for just as long.

That's because not all Middle East countries are the same.

[Anti Federalist]

How does protectionism favor manufacturing if it protects domestic products from competition, leaving them with little incentive to improve while Americans pay more for products? Oh wait, you're right, it DOES favor manufacturing, at the expense of hurting consumers because they pay more, with less improvements.

If "protectionism" stifles ingenuity and manufacturing progress, why are the two best selling and highest quality cars in the US, made here?

Made here only because there are still some constitutional tariffs in place that incentivize domestic production.

But don't worry, it won't be long before you'll be able to buy an $8,000 POS Chinese car at the Wal Marx, and those facilities in Kentucky and Ohio, and all the people that worked there, will be shut down and sent home.

[tod evans]

No, that would be the Smith and Marx labor theory of value. Free market theory says we should only value things based on what the market has assigned its dollar value for, based on supply and demand.

Okay I'll go along.........Right now the "market" has assigned value to the service and idea industries hence things like software and healthcare are doing pretty well right now. Government in all its many faces is a service industry too.

How well do you think we're going to do marketing things like government and healthcare to other nations? Especially nations who are not doing well financially.

The US really does need to get back to producing something.....Common sense tells me that consuming goods produced elsewhere without producing something other than printed money can't go on forever.

[onlyrp]

If "protectionism" stifles ingenuity and manufacturing progress, why are the two best selling and highest quality cars in the US, made here?


which ones are those?



Made here only because there are still some constitutional tariffs in place that incentivize domestic production.

But don't worry, it won't be long before you'll be able to buy an $8,000 POS Chinese car at the Wal Marx, and those facilities in Kentucky and Ohio, and all the people that worked there, will be shut down and sent home.

what is so holy and great about encouraging production? Why do I care about people being sent home when they can how save $12,000 on their car?

[onlyrp]

Okay I'll go along.........Right now the "market" has assigned value to the service and idea industries hence things like software and healthcare are doing pretty well right now. Government in all its many faces is a service industry too.

How well do you think we're going to do marketing things like government and healthcare to other nations? Especially nations who are not doing well financially.

The US really does need to get back to producing something.....Common sense tells me that consuming goods produced elsewhere without producing something other than printed money can't go on forever.

why would we be marketing government to other nations? Don't they love it more than we do already? healthcare is easier to market, everybody wants health, nobody wants to pay for it. Production is relative, and printing money isn't the only alternative to producing goods.

[Zippyjuan]

Justify that.

We've been invading our trading partners for over a century.

Europe traded with each other prior to both World Wars.

We've been trading with the Middle East for decades and invading and meddling there for just as long.

Let us see who our recent major wars have been against. Afganistan. Major US trading partner? Don't think so. Iraq? We bought some oil from them but not much else. Vietnam? Gee. Can't think of much we got from them though we do get some clothes and things now. North Korea? Still don't trade with them. Japan? Ok we did have trade with them before they attacked us.

We can try to look at it the other way and see who among our largest trading partners we have recently gone to war with.
Our largest trading partners are Canada (never fought there since independence), China (no direct wars), Mexico (nothing recent aside from the Drug Wars), Japan (covered), Germany- we fought them after they attacked some of our other trading partners like Britain, the United Kingdom (not since independence), South Korea (were on their side in the Korean police action) next come France, Nederlands, Taiwan. Hmm. Not seeing a lot of fights with trading partners here.

[HigherVision]

It sucks how much damage people like Alex Jones have done to our movement with this socialistic uber-nationalism.

[tod evans]

why would we be marketing government to other nations? Don't they love it more than we do already? healthcare is easier to market, everybody wants health, nobody wants to pay for it. Production is relative, and printing money isn't the only alternative to producing goods.

The point I was trying to make is what are we actually producing that permits us to trade with other nations?

Our largest employers produce no tangible goods.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Lets understand two facts:

1-Our manufacturing is greatly hampered by taxes, regulations, and our monetary policy.
2-Other nations already have an advantage.

What I would like to do is remove the restrictions on our manufacturing. This would be a middling affect and get us back into the game, but we would not regain the lead.

Tariffs are not productive, and free trade is a great creator of wealth and lifts living standards.

But I do have a question for our smarter economists: Given the choice, would it be more economically productive to solely tax domestic goods or to solely tax imports?

In the real world I do not see things being funded solely by tariffs, but that question is a hypothetical.

[Cutlerzzz]

Till they get hungry, or cold.

All that would mean is that their subjective preferences have changed. And of course, America does not have to choose between food/shelter/services/entertainment. The economy is large enough to have all of those.

[tod evans]

But I do have a question for our smarter economists: Given the choice, would it be more economically productive to solely tax domestic goods or to solely tax imports?



I'm nothing even resembling an economist, but the first thing that crossed my mind was productive for whom?

Wouldn't it make sense to have citizens paying taxes on income and goods purchased with wages earned than to just tax imports?

[GeorgiaAvenger]

I'm nothing even resembling an economist, but the first thing that crossed my mind was productive for whom?

Wouldn't it make sense to have citizens paying taxes on income and goods purchased with wages earned than to just tax imports?

I was just asking in terms of the general economy: productivity.

I was thinking that in theory, taxing internally would both take capital and hurt the native business, while taxing externals would take capital but it might help native business. In this theory assume that domestic consumption and imports remain constant.

Of course in real life solely using tariffs, or even significantly, would resemble something like Smoot-Hawley fiasco.

[Zippyjuan]

Believe it or not, US manufacturing has not been in decline. What has been in decline is the number of people needed to produce that output. People have been getting replaced by machines and automations and productivity has greatly increased. Interesting chart I just found:
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2011/12/27/top-10-countries-for-manufacturing-production-in-2010-china-usa-japan-germany/
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/top_10_manufacturing_countries_chart_1980-2010.png

USA in red, China in blue. Interesting to see what happened with Japan who in the 1980's was concern that they would move ahead of the US- but we kept plugging along while they eventually fell. Not saying that this will necessarily happen with China- they are much larger than Japan and have a lot more people.

Meanwhile compare the growth of US manufactured goods with the decline of US manufacturing jobs- especially since 1980 (the total peaked in 1979):
http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/12/23/saupload_mfg1_1.jpg
http://seekingalpha.com/article/179648-manufacturing-employment-falls-to-record-lows-but-productivity-soars

From the peak manufacturing employment of 19.55 million jobs in 1979, the American manufacturing workforce has shrunk by more than 40%, as almost 8 million manufacturing jobs have been eliminated over the last thirty years, with almost 6 million of those losses taking place just since 2000. And there’s nothing to suggest that the trend won’t continue, so we can expect a continued contraction of U.S. manufacturing employment.

See related story here about Michigan's population falling below 10 million.

But what about manufacturing output? That news is a little better. The chart below shows the decline in manufacturing employment plotted against the Gross Value of Final Products and Nonindustrial Supplies (in billions of constant 2000 dollars), as calculated by the Federal Reserve (data here). In the thirty year period between 1977 and 2007, U.S. manufacturing output doubled from $1.5 trillion to $3 trillion, before dropping to a ten-year low in June 2008 of $2.6 trillion, from the contractionary effects of the recession. Manufacturing output has been rebounding lately and it increased in four out of the last five months, after falling in ten out of the previous 11 months, signalling that the economy moved from recession to expansion in the middle of the year.

Pretty grim so far, but here's where the news about the manufacturing sector gets better. According to the Federal Reserve, the dollar value of U.S. manufacturing output in November was $2.72 trillion (in 2000 dollars), which translates to $234,220 of manufacturing output for each of that sector’s 11.648 million workers, setting an all-time record high for U.S. manufacturing output per worker (see chart below).

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/12/23/saupload_mfg4_1.jpg

[onlyrp]

It sucks how much damage people like Alex Jones have done to our movement with this socialistic uber-nationalism.

Alex Jones is nationalist and socialist?

[onlyrp]

All that would mean is that their subjective preferences have changed. And of course, America does not have to choose between food/shelter/services/entertainment. The economy is large enough to have all of those.

is it fair to say we're only in "poverty" because we're demanding more over time?

[onlyrp]

The point I was trying to make is what are we actually producing that permits us to trade with other nations?

Our largest employers produce no tangible goods.

Again I ask, what is so good about tangible goods?

[Cutlerzzz]

is it fair to say we're only in "poverty" because we're demanding more over time?

Poverty in the United States is very different than poverty in the rest of the world.

Poverty here means you only have a small apartment, one TV, one gaming consule, one computer, and eat a lot of McDonalds and Ramen.

Poverty in the rest of the world?...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J3eL3jR-2mY/TcRSqyQdOcI/AAAAAAAACpc/VCHWabpMZZ8/s400/third-world-starvation.jpg