PDA

View Full Version : Disturbing Discussion Before Class




No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 08:28 AM
Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there are a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."

I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?

VBRonPaulFan
03-01-2012, 08:31 AM
people who are a bit younger and more superficial tend not to put the pieces together unless you can draw some pragmatic line to how not dealing with THIS scenario directly affects them. it's tough, but what can you do? some people are just more concerned about what kind of clothes they wear and where the next party is, and don't want to take on the responsibility of thinking towards the future.

No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 08:37 AM
people who are a bit younger and more superficial tend not to put the pieces together unless you can draw some pragmatic line to how not dealing with THIS scenario directly affects them. it's tough, but what can you do? some people are just more concerned about what kind of clothes they wear and where the next party is, and don't want to take on the responsibility of thinking towards the future.

But what they don't realize is that everything that's going on will directly effect their little world. It's so annoying.

KingNothing
03-01-2012, 08:38 AM
Well, some strangers seeing odd images of your body really doesn't matter. Even our government doing it doesn't really matter. The naked body scanners don't directly rob us, and they don't directly injure us (I say "directly" in each case because the machines do rob us, and probably do harm us). There is no apparent, direct harm in any way. It's easy to not care about this.

But that doesn't mean subjecting the populace to this is right. It doesn't mean this security theater is legal or even that it makes us safer. For me, this is a matter of principle. And because of that, I agree with you. I'll go for the pat-down every time for the same reason Good Will Hunting always picked the wrench - "Because f^&k them." The government has no right to be doing this. That is the problem. People who don't care about the law and what government can and cannot do, will not care about things like this. That's just the way it is.

amonasro
03-01-2012, 08:39 AM
People are selfish. Destruction of our liberty has to get to a point where it affects people to a much higher degree. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late. The fence is already up.

brooks009
03-01-2012, 08:43 AM
Everyone has their issues they care about. I personally don’t care if someone sees me naked. I do care that they can detain me for just about anything. You should change the topic to see what they care about.

Ender
03-01-2012, 08:46 AM
Morpheus:

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

realtonygoodwin
03-01-2012, 08:46 AM
This is the problem that most Ron Paul suppporters don't seem to understand. The apathy. I am glad you have been awakened to it.

ConCap
03-01-2012, 08:47 AM
I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?


Americanism and freedom is a movement that must be instilled from birth, or injected after the TSHTF and people are shown the alternative.

Carehn
03-01-2012, 08:47 AM
It sounds like you need to connect with that like minded girl out of class. Could turn into something that will last longer then this campaign cycle.

KMX
03-01-2012, 08:50 AM
Marry the one that said she is voting Ron Paul, Don't EVER have a relashionship with the ones that said "I don't care"

Jeremy Tyler
03-01-2012, 08:51 AM
Well, some strangers seeing odd images of your body really doesn't matter. Even our government doing it doesn't really matter. The naked body scanners don't directly rob us, and they don't directly injure us (I say "directly" in each case because the machines do rob us, and probably do harm us). There is no apparent, direct harm in any way. It's easy to not care about this.

But that doesn't mean subjecting the populace to this is right. It doesn't mean this security theater is legal or even that it makes us safer. For me, this is a matter of principle. And because of that, I agree with you. I'll go for the pat-down every time for the same reason Good Will Hunting always picked the wrench - "Because f^&k them." The government has no right to be doing this. That is the problem. People who don't care about the law and what government can and cannot do, will not care about things like this. That's just the way it is.

I love the part about the wrench part. +rep

azxd
03-01-2012, 08:53 AM
Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there is a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."

I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?
Look to voter turn-out records, and you will find that the people you interacted with represent typical Americans.

Intoxiklown
03-01-2012, 08:54 AM
People are selfish. Destruction of our liberty has to get to a point where it affects people to a much higher degree. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late. The fence is already up.

These are the people that I tell they are welcome to their views and opinions, but they are giving away my freedom and my children's freedom because they are personally worried about possibilities of "danger". That's usually when I remind them of Franklin's infamous statement about liberty and security.

If they want to debate that, I usually take them down the slippery slope they are advocating unknowingly. Things like thier habits possibly affecting my health, them driving possibly putting my life in danger, and so on.

mczerone
03-01-2012, 09:02 AM
Allow them their opinions about what THEY are willing to put up with.

But ask the next question: "Are you willing to FORCE me to go along with what you happen to be okay with, even though I am not?"

All liberty issues aren't about what any individual is willin to put up with. The real issues are about what we're willing to do to the people who have honest disagreements about the policies.

Just like drug freedom wouldn't force people to start taking drugs, security freedom wouldn't force people to go without what they perceive as needed protections. We just want a CHOICE as to the policies we must be subjected to.

So you don't have to write them off as a post cause because they don't agree that the TSA is going too far. You just have to get them to agree that rational people should be allowed to have choices beyond what the TSA mandates.

azxd
03-01-2012, 09:04 AM
These are the people that I tell they are welcome to their views and opinions, but they are giving away my freedom and my children's freedom because they are personally worried about possibilities of "danger". That's usually when I remind them of Franklin's infamous statement about liberty and security.

If they want to debate that, I usually take them down the slippery slope they are advocating unknowingly. Things like thier habits possibly affecting my health, them driving possibly putting my life in danger, and so on.
And if they are bold, they continue to tell you they don't care.
If they are not bold, they tell you after you leave the room.

No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 09:04 AM
It sounds like you need to connect with that like minded girl out of class. Could turn into something that will last longer then this campaign cycle.

She's engaged to a military man.

Johnny Appleseed
03-01-2012, 09:06 AM
Is it illegal to carry a concealed sausage in your pants? If not if I ever fly thats what I'm doing

No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 09:07 AM
Marry the one that said she is voting Ron Paul, Don't EVER have a relashionship with the ones that said "I don't care"

I could never be with someone who "doesn't care."

It's the biggest turn off...

ConCap
03-01-2012, 09:08 AM
She's engaged to a military man.


There’s nothing like a man in uniform.
At least that’s what my wife says.

Intoxiklown
03-01-2012, 09:10 AM
And if they are bold, they continue to tell you they don't care.
If they are not bold, they tell you after you leave the room.

It's sad 'cause it's true......

=(

I'll be honest, when it reaches that point, and I fully realize they won't be moved, I make sure to let them know they are exactly what's killing this country. I still have my Geneva Conventions Card from the Army, and I show it to them. I let them know they have personally offended me, and people like them make me regret my service. If nothing else, it stings them in deep down in their cockles.

No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 09:17 AM
It's sad 'cause it's true......

=(

I'll be honest, when it reaches that point, and I fully realize they won't be moved, I make sure to let them know they are exactly what's killing this country. I still have my Geneva Conventions Card from the Army, and I show it to them. I let them know they have personally offended me, and people like them make me regret my service. If nothing else, it stings them in deep down in their cockles.

Don't let them make you regret your service.

There are people who think about you all everyday.

Thank you.

Keith and stuff
03-01-2012, 09:19 AM
The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.


Here are a few people trying a couple different approaches at the Manchester, New Hampshire airport.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeVBtTpRqyg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MapSlGNOXWw

Here is a video I will not post here. Warning, it is Kelly again, wearing even less clothes. People tend to ignore her in the video.
http://freekeene.com/2012/02/25/ridley-reports-on-kelly-voluntaryists-most-revealing-dont-strip-our-rights-ever/

Keith and stuff
03-01-2012, 09:25 AM
I found a couple additional videos of TSA outreach at the Manchester, New Hampshire airport.

Again, with Kelly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6rH6Mri0to

Here is a completely different TSA outreach in Manchester

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdgMeXv6zlM

flightlesskiwi
03-01-2012, 09:33 AM
I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.


welcome to the world of apathy.

enjoy the blank stares, shrugs, and announcements of "you're a crazy Ron Paul cultist!" whilst you proclaim simple truths.

i'd suggest you form a friendship with the like-minded girl, and if you have a chance, figure out what actually does matter to the apathetic person and stab at it (in a good way).
sometimes it takes a looooooong time for people to "see the light." also, realize that you can't change everyone's mind. we may be in an economic depression, but it sure as hell doesn't seem like it to most people (yet).

JK/SEA
03-01-2012, 09:34 AM
I'd ask her if it would bother her to find out her :
mom
grandma
little sister
female cousins
best friends...etc

were being 'scanned' through their clothes by men in a backroom.

airborne373
03-01-2012, 09:41 AM
Throughout the pages of history many choose slavery over freedom. Individual liberty is a new liberal concept, rare & precious in this world.

slamhead
03-01-2012, 09:41 AM
Have them watch this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiJB8YuDBQ

ZenBowman
03-01-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't find this surprising at all, most people can only be passionate about a few issues - for example, some people are very passionate about the environment, yet if they spoke about their concerns on this board, they'd either be ignored, humiliated or attacked as "disinfo agents".

Similarly when libertarians talk about eroding civil liberties, they are usually ignored or dismissed as "conspiracy kooks".

Most people, including libertarians, focus on one or two issues, and deliberately play down the concerns of others. In order to create a more humane society, we'll have to move past this stage, and really face the fact that sometimes concerns conflict, and that we don't need to downplay concerns that conflict with the ones we care about.

Most issues are actually interconnected, but people focus on what they care about, and are either apathetic or downright insulting to the ones they don't care about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6YpCsapg

millercards
03-01-2012, 09:50 AM
Looking at the glass as half-full:

4 people were talking

2 were voters

2 were probably non-voters

2/2 choose Ron Paul = 100%

Apathetic people are (a)pathetic.

jbuttell
03-01-2012, 09:56 AM
To the OP, as the friend who is ok with the scanners, if they'll be so accepting when random cavity searches start. I mean, we want to be safe right?

Intoxiklown
03-01-2012, 09:57 AM
Don't let them make you regret your service.

There are people who think about you all everyday.

Thank you.

LOL....no worries. That's why I say people "like them". Don't get me wrong, you couldn't pay me to go through the military again, but at the same time, I wouldn't trade it for anything. If you want to truly appreciate the freedoms Americans enjoy, go through BCT, where you can't even have salt and pepper...haha

D.A.S.
03-01-2012, 10:14 AM
Apathy is everywhere. Eventually, you hit an issue that's close to home for someone politically apathetic, and they become curious and then they become educated and then they become involved. Don't give up. You'd be surprised that people actually do listen and take stuff to heart -- some are just afraid to show that and think it's cool not to care.

Guzabuza
03-01-2012, 10:16 AM
80 % of the people throughout history are born with a mentality of a serf, 10 % are born as freedom fighters, 10 % are born as sociopaths with the desire to control the rest of the 90 %.

You guys and girls should visit Croatia or even Sweden and you will see that 95 % of the population don't give a f* what the government does to them. Croatia had a referendum couple of weeks ago, if to join the EU. Most people didn't even vote, the others that voted 90 % didn't have a god damn clue what they were voting on.

KingNothing
03-01-2012, 10:17 AM
I love the part about the wrench part. +rep

Thanks. That's my favorite part of the movie. Basically saying "who's this d-bag to exert any dominance over me?" and forcing the d-bags to lower themselves to a level of abject, moral depravity and insanity.... how can you not love that?

coffeewithchess
03-01-2012, 10:29 AM
People are selfish. Destruction of our liberty has to get to a point where it affects people to a much higher degree. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late. The fence is already up.

Take away the NFL, MLB, NHL, Facebook, internet, cable tv...ONLY then will people start to care. Get gas prices to $8, then MAYBE (Europe already has them, and they don't seem to do much of anything) people will wake up.
The people in charge are professionals, they know how to use the "2 steps forward, 1 step backwards" method of incrementalism all day long.

thoughtomator
03-01-2012, 10:42 AM
If I ever have to fly (I'm on boycott until this TSA nonsense is done with), I'm stuffing copies of the Constitution along with printouts of 42 CFR 1983 (the law that lets you sue them for civil rights violations under color of law) down my pants to be found in their search.

And then I will sue the fuck out of everyone involved, from the groper himself all the way up to dear aunt Janet.

azxd
03-01-2012, 10:43 AM
I'd ask her if it would bother her to find out her :
mom
grandma
little sister
female cousins
best friends...etc

were being 'scanned' through their clothes by men in a backroom.
When someone doesn't care about such things happening to self ... What makes you think they'll care about it happening to someone else ?

socal
03-01-2012, 10:47 AM
Airport full-body X-ray scanners banned across Europe as unsafe
16 Nov 2011
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/airport-full-body-x-ray-scanners-banned-across-europe-as-unsafe-20111116/

Muwahid
03-01-2012, 10:53 AM
I personally don't care what they try to do to me, what I do care about are my friends and family, I care because I'm protective imagine your mom or sister going through those where TSA employees can see it all.

smtwngrl
03-01-2012, 10:55 AM
What they need to realize is that the only freedoms we have are the ones we claim. If we give up freedoms, and allow things that shouldn't be, it only sets the stage for them to take even more freedoms.

If your friends didn't know about the airport scanners, chances are that they don't know about things like NDAA, and other bad bills being pushed, like the Enemy Expatriation Act.

If they still don't get it, perhaps they need to be educated by reading something written by someone who has lived in an unfree country, and sees some of the same things happening here.

There was a thread here awhile back from someone who had written on his Facebook page about why he supported Ron Paul. He told what it was like living in the country he had come from, and it was enough to make anyone think.

Your friends need to realize it is all about one question: Is the government the master, or are the people the master? The people are supposed to be the master.

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

singe22
03-01-2012, 11:30 AM
I came to my senses and resigned from TSA last year. It truely is a mess and i think private security would do a better job because not all the employee's took things as serious.

But i dont know what pictures you saw, but nobody can see your private parts in the flesh at TSA. If someone has told you to take off clothing down to being naked then they goofed in policy. Officers are not supposed to do a grabbing motion, everything is suppossed to be a pat on normal areas and slide on what is called sensitive areas.

On occasion you get people who just wigg out and start undressing when nobody has told them to do so and thats when the cameras start flashing or videos to feed these radical ideas.

I"m not in favor of government run security but i can assure you nobody on the ground at TSA has thinking mentality of "Facist Police State Officers".

affa
03-01-2012, 11:42 AM
Well, some strangers seeing odd images of your body really doesn't matter. Even our government doing it doesn't really matter. The naked body scanners don't directly rob us, and they don't directly injure us (I say "directly" in each case because the machines do rob us, and probably do harm us). There is no apparent, direct harm in any way. It's easy to not care about this.

But that doesn't mean subjecting the populace to this is right. It doesn't mean this security theater is legal or even that it makes us safer. For me, this is a matter of principle. And because of that, I agree with you. I'll go for the pat-down every time for the same reason Good Will Hunting always picked the wrench - "Because f^&k them." The government has no right to be doing this. That is the problem. People who don't care about the law and what government can and cannot do, will not care about things like this. That's just the way it is.

Yes, it all matters.

otherone
03-01-2012, 11:52 AM
80 % of the people throughout history are born with a mentality of a serf, 10 % are born as freedom fighters, 10 % are born as sociopaths with the desire to control the rest of the 90 %.



My relationship to power and authority is that I'm all for it. People need somebody to watch over them. Ninety-five percent of the people in the world need to be told what to do and how to behave.
Arnold Schwarzenegger

EBounding
03-01-2012, 12:13 PM
People don't care because the TSA is an "Authority Figure". If you asked to see them naked, they would be horrified. But as long as you are an "authority figure", everything's justified.

PaulConventionWV
03-01-2012, 12:15 PM
I don't find this surprising at all, most people can only be passionate about a few issues - for example, some people are very passionate about the environment, yet if they spoke about their concerns on this board, they'd either be ignored, humiliated or attacked as "disinfo agents".

Similarly when libertarians talk about eroding civil liberties, they are usually ignored or dismissed as "conspiracy kooks".

Most people, including libertarians, focus on one or two issues, and deliberately play down the concerns of others. In order to create a more humane society, we'll have to move past this stage, and really face the fact that sometimes concerns conflict, and that we don't need to downplay concerns that conflict with the ones we care about.

Most issues are actually interconnected, but people focus on what they care about, and are either apathetic or downright insulting to the ones they don't care about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6YpCsapg

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He says "the free market economists think more growth, more stuff, and 9 billion people going shopping is the best we can do."

That's a Keynesian position, not a free market position. He's a fear monger with a bit of positive spin. He's still trying to motivate people with the lie of climate change.

soulcyon
03-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Well this is basically what powers the Mainstream Media - fear mongering. MSM understands people don't care, so they throw all this scary shit in their face, take over populus media channels and propogate the scare tactic even further. It's hard to find a way to wake people up without scaring them.

otherone
03-01-2012, 12:30 PM
People don't care because the TSA is an "Authority Figure". If you asked to see them naked, they would be horrified. But as long as you are an "authority figure", everything's justified.

Milgram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) proved that 50 years ago.

Romulus
03-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Sounds like there are some cowards in your class... thats all it comes down to. They are afraid to push back.

cdc482
03-01-2012, 12:54 PM
Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there is a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."

I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?

To be honest, idc either. But the principle of it is wrong. If other people don't want to do it for ANY reason, they shouldn't be forced to.

Captain Shays
03-01-2012, 01:02 PM
If I may make a suggestion. Many of us here are quite saavy when it comes to making videos. I sometimes will go on youtube and just type in "police abuse authority". Trust me. You can sit there literally for hours watching the worse kinds of police abuse of authority.
PLus there are numerous cases where prosecutors lied, copps lied, mayors and Congressmen and Senators and presidents and everyone in between lied. There are probably millions of people who have spent serious time in jails without ever breaking the law. There is Stossel's recent video called Everything Is illegal and then, there is America From Freedom To Fascism.
Just make some videos of these instances and give them to people. Show them everything from Rodney King to the little girls who were selling unauthorized lemonade to Hope Stephy having her clothes ripped off of her by five malle police officers and then forced to sit for hours naked in a jail cell when she was totally innocent.
Then finish it off with the stories of TSA screeners forcing beautiful women through their XRay machine numerous times and laughing and making rude comments.
If that doesn't wake them up just start shoveling dirt on them.

Highstreet
03-01-2012, 01:07 PM
No Free Beer,

The only way to turn anyone, or wake them up is to find out the issues they do care about. Everyone has a few issues that are supremely important to them.

Then you need to be able to explain how Paul or simply a Liberty Stance would address those issues better than an authoritarian govt.

Good Luck!

eduardo89
03-01-2012, 01:30 PM
I had an equally disturbing conversation with two cops here in Spain last night. It was about the domestic violence laws here in Spain. Basically it's like this:

Woman attack man: domestic violence if man files complaint, woman will be notified in 3-5 days, has to make a statement, court decides whether a crime has been committed

Woman says man attacks her, no evidence, just her word: man is arrested for hate crime, mandatory 24 hours in custody, police records created (including fingerprints, DNA, pictures), next morning gets 15 minutes with a lawyer and then is brought to the "Violence Against Women" court where his trial starts and he has to prove his innocence.

The woman officer told me she supports that law because women arent as physically strong as men and therefore men can attack them more easily. I object saying the law shouldn't mention race, gender, age, religion, ect. A violent crime is a crime regardless who the victim is. The government shouldn't be making special laws for certain groups.

The male cop responded that he says the law is fair because laws have to adapt themselves to the situation at hand. I replied that the law can't be made where it violate the rights of another person (right to a fair trial, presumption of innocence, right to face your accuser, etc)

The cops replied: "it's just our job to enforce the law, even if it's unfair, it's not our job to protect people from that"

I shut up before the tased me.

That's disturbing.

otherone
03-01-2012, 01:40 PM
I had an equally disturbing conversation with two cops here in Spain last night. It was about the domestic violence laws here in Spain.

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
C. S. Lewis

3kgt
03-01-2012, 01:47 PM
I agree with the guy who said people simply don't connect the dots which is why you need to do it for them. I also agree with the guy who said you should bang the ron paul girl
:)

jmdrake
03-01-2012, 02:00 PM
Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there are a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."


Many of today's youth have been desensitized to invasions of privacy through "sexting", Facebook, MTV and "Girls gone bad on spring break". Both the people you were talking to may have flashed strangers at Madi Gras and have the cellphone video to prove it.



I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?

Ask them if they realize the underwear bomber was purposefully let on the plane by our government? That was admitted by Patrick Kennedy in congressional hearings.

Ask them if they realize that cavity searches are coming next because pat downs and current scanners can't detect suppository bombs.

Ask them if they are okay with their children been naked scanned. (Probably too young to have kids).

Ask them if they are aware that the GAO said the scanners wouldn't have stopped the underwear bomber.

Ask them if they realize there's better technology that would have stopped the underwear bomber that doesn't invade privacy. (GE's "entryscan" technology which just "sniffs" passengers for bomb residue.

Realize that some folks are idiots and have to be written off like bad debts. Be glad these two jokers are probably to apathetic to even vote.

heavenlyboy34
03-01-2012, 03:20 PM
I don't find this surprising at all, most people can only be passionate about a few issues - for example, some people are very passionate about the environment, yet if they spoke about their concerns on this board, they'd either be ignored, humiliated or attacked as "disinfo agents".

Similarly when libertarians talk about eroding civil liberties, they are usually ignored or dismissed as "conspiracy kooks".

Most people, including libertarians, focus on one or two issues, and deliberately play down the concerns of others. In order to create a more humane society, we'll have to move past this stage, and really face the fact that sometimes concerns conflict, and that we don't need to downplay concerns that conflict with the ones we care about.

Most issues are actually interconnected, but people focus on what they care about, and are either apathetic or downright insulting to the ones they don't care about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT6YpCsapg
I disagree. People around here consistently point out that the root of those problems is the State. It's almost always the trollish types who get bashed.

Mr. Perfidy
03-01-2012, 03:57 PM
All due respect good people, I think that most of your suggestions are just going to alienate everyone in the class, and give the impression that the OP is a mental case or a jehova's witness. Some people do not give a damn. This is a principle I wrestle with in libertarian/anarchist circles, because the human race simply didn't evolve to be 100% autonomous individuals. It does not work this way- the fact that it takes 2 people to make a baby, or that a baby is entirely helpless for a good part of its life, should clue us into the fact that everyone is not supposed to be clint eastwood. Just leave their dumbasses alone.

I would argue, however, that what the guy said did not indicate a political position, but rather was meant to be a weiner insecurity innoculation comment. "I dont care if people see MY penis!" It has no weight whatsoever as a political statement or endorsement of policy; it just means that he has internalized his defeat so profoundly, from the million clues in his environment, and from observing that all of the people with all of the stuff that he wants just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD. They both just sound to me like they were saying, "well I have no power whatsoever to change or affect it in any meaningful way, and in that position, talking shit on it just hurts you anyway. I do not like the lash, therefore I comply."

We are not dealing with political opinions and discussions of ideas- we are fighting a battle against a psychological condition. People do not feel like they have any power over their own body; their psychology then adapts and experiences life differently.

Paulitics 2011
03-01-2012, 04:08 PM
I think it's definitely a lot more of a hassle for women than men, to be honest. Ask them how they'd feel if they had daughters or a wife going through the scanners and pat-downs.

PolicyReader
03-01-2012, 04:30 PM
I'm painting with really broad strokes here but for collage kids bring up SOPA/PIPA when you talk about censorship/privacy (in legal standings they do interrelate)
If they don't know of SOPA just ask them what life would be like without youtube, wikis, twitter, facebook, and google.

You can also point out (assuming they have cell or smart phones) that none of their phone use is protected except the actual voice calls. Meaning because of weak privacy laws your location, your text message, your sms message (including any photos or video), are all able to be accessed by government and businesses at will (not that the local pretzel stand will have/be able to access them, but there aren't any legal barriers).
Also e-mails are all unprotected if stored online for more than 18 months (so if you use hotmail, yahoo, gmail, etc and keep e-mails for your records personal or professional those can be looked through without legal justification). <-- If they think that's try and actually *do* watch reality tv or do the 'celebrity gossip' thing you can point out someone could leak their personal information/messages and there's little to nothing they could do about it.

If they're into dramas get them to watch Good night and good luck that will connect with some who wouldn't listen to reasoned arguments.

The core aspect to connect with people who have little to no political interest is to talk to them directly about issues that effect them, better if it effects their day to day lives and explain how it negatively effects their day to day life. It won't work in every case (especially right away) but it does get people thinking and the more they think the more they understand (and ask questions). The other great thing about opening eyes, even if it's just a little, is that the more individuals understand the faster the word will spread.

2c

DerailingDaTrain
03-01-2012, 04:38 PM
Yeah this sounds about right. Whenever I bring up the Patriot Act, NDAA, the TSA, etc the response I usually get is close the following: "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear, Comrade!"

No Free Beer
03-01-2012, 04:39 PM
I, like a lot of you, don't know how to approach them. A lot of you have some great ideas.

One a side note, the one girl who said, "I don't care" also says she doesn't like Ron Paul because "He is so old and gross. He looks like a pedophile." Oh, the irony.

UPDATE: The one chick who said she is going to vote Ron Paul texted me and said she went through the screeners because she was late (on her way to Chicago right now). I let her know I was disappointed in her. She said she was late and that she panicked. I think she is genuine. The others, I worry about.

DerailingDaTrain
03-01-2012, 04:50 PM
So her grandfather is a pedophile too because he is old?

pacelli
03-01-2012, 04:54 PM
It is too late to wake that sort of person up. That sort of person is OK with the human slave/mundane mentality. Super tuesday is in less than a weak. Move on to more important VOTERS.

MisfitToy
03-01-2012, 05:01 PM
I think the problem is not how to get through to everyone, it depends on how you adjust your approach to their individual personalities. Not everyone is free thinking, probably most people aren't. So they're somewhere along the line of stubborn, impressionable, open-minded, agreeable, all the way down to submissive. Some people you will never get through to. Some people need to follow the crowd. Some will consider possiblities and those are the people best to attempt to talk to one on one. Don't give up on this person, it seems she was in an uncomfortable position to speak her mind.

dannno
03-01-2012, 05:34 PM
It's honestly not a big deal to me for someone else to check me out, I'm not ashamed, which is I think where those two classmates were going with that.. but that doesn't mean I don't see the whole thing as a huge affront to liberty... I think just simply didn't think it through all the way.

You should have asked the flat chested chick if she thought it was ok that kids went through there, and what if there were child predators working for the TSA?

Also, you should have asked the flat chested chick why not show you her chest, or why not show the whole class, see what she says. You'd have to be REALLY careful with your wording and how you said it not to come off as a creep tho :p

alucard13mmfmj
03-01-2012, 05:57 PM
move on. they are doooooomed. doooooomed.

idiom
03-01-2012, 06:01 PM
Meh. I kind of gave up on worrying about my nekkid bits when I was diagnosed with a condition that would lead to a life of digital inspections from random doctors.

Digital means with their digits.

The problem with the TSA is that they are incompetent and dodgy and they nick stuff.

VCU for Ron Paul
03-01-2012, 06:28 PM
I just tell them in a nice and sincere manner,

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa374/Adamsv20/policestate.jpg

Emperius
03-01-2012, 06:34 PM
Milgram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) proved that 50 years ago.

Yep, as well as Zimbardo with his prison experiment.

Basically, from a Sociological perspective.. the sheep will be sheep because that's what's around them, it's what is expected of them, and it's what they're told to do. People conform, it came about as an evolutionary tactic for our ancestors to stick together to survive. It's why we go with the flow, etc...

A political example of this is the 'surge', when everyone just flocks to one candidate. Hopefully, this will play out in our favor in/after WA this saturday.

PolicyReader
03-01-2012, 08:01 PM
Yep, as well as Zimbardo with his prison experiment.

Basically, from a Sociological perspective.. the sheep will be sheep because that's what's around them, it's what is expected of them, and it's what they're told to do. People conform, it came about as an evolutionary tactic for our ancestors to stick together to survive. It's why we go with the flow, etc...

A political example of this is the 'surge', when everyone just flocks to one candidate. Hopefully, this will play out in our favor in/after WA this saturday.

Which is why changing minds is both so hard and so easy, it's all a matter of how you bill it ;)
I've had more than one collage discussion that started out with myself and 2-3 other people on one side and the whole class on the other and ended with the odds reversed. Most people, voters or not, will to one degree or another "go with the flow" right now the inertia of that flow isn't for liberty but most of the support of the Status Quo is 'soft' support (just like that 30-45% of last minute decision voters is soft).
To quote: "Seduction is the art of showing someone how fulfilling your desires fulfills their own" the same is true of persuasion. Convincing someone to change their mind is one thing, and consistently hard, convincing someone that they/you already agree on something and should act in accord is another thing and is consistently easier.
But they both can result in the same actions being taken. Focus on the most energy effective actions (at least that's my advice ;) ).