You won't read this thread because you don't like the truth. We lose if we don't ADAPT.

[eleganz]

THIS IS A REVOLUTION & YOU BETTER F'ING ACT LIKE YOU'RE FIGHTING IN ONE IF YOU WANT RON PAUL TO BE PRESIDENT PAUL

If we don't change our forum/grassroots mentality, we will lose (this election). Plain and simple.


Stop the speculation and POINTLESS topics/threads and start promoting ACTIVISM & ORGANIZATION.


We will literally be the end of ourselves, most of us are the very sheeple we condemn the rest of the country of being.



Sorry if this is too much of a REALITY CHECK for you but I'm here to win NOT chit chat.



If you are here to win, you better start changing the way you operate on these forums and in your free-time.


I've already accepted that we weren't losing because of fraud, we're losing because all of the so called 'hardcore Ron Paul supporters' aren't very hardcore after all.

We definitely don't live up to the name and reputation that has been given to us.



TOO MUCH BARK, NOT ENOUGH BITE.



STOP F'ING SPECULATING. DO SOMETHING IF YOU ARE ABLE TO.


-Call Washington friday and Saturday morning. All day Saturday-Tuesday for Super Tuesday
www.phone.ronpaul2012.com

This is a message from John Tate, TODAY:

"If Ron Paul is going to finish strong on Super Tuesday, we must make sure as many identified supporters as possible show up to vote.

Our numbers show that if we can turn out every supporter we've identified in key Super Tuesday states, Ron Paul WILL have an INCREDIBLY strong showing."

GET ON THE PHONES.

WASHINGTON CAUCUS LOCATOR
https://www.waronpaul.com/caucus/locator

WASHINGTON CAMPAIGN HQ PHONE #
1-425-440-0324



-Read up on your delegates:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346522-PDF-Delegate-information-for-ALL-50-states!-Wondering-about-your-state-look-no-further!

-get on www.ronpaulcountry.com & www.meetup.com BE ACTIVE, START EVENTS, BUILD A VOLUNTEER DATABASE...DO SOMETHING.

-Help others promote their local activism by BUMPING activism threads and keeping them alive.

-pump donations





If you have a suggestion, name it and I'll ADD it in the OP.

[joshnorris14]

Isn't saying "we lose if we don't adapt" itself speculation?

[doremedia]

Well, there is no way they are going to allow Ron Paul to win. The objective is to continue the fight...get lots of delegates, push the Liberty movement further along, organize and start putting Ron Paul principles to work at the local level. Our Ron Paul group has become a PAC and we are going to effect change on the local level..we are already supporting Ron Paul candidates locally..we have to first change our own back yards. All Politics is Local.

[kathy88]

Rant?

[floridasun1983]

DO SOMETHING IF YOU ARE ABLE TO."DO SOMETHING." Do what, exactly? What do you suggest?

[hammy]

I think the problem is we're fighting blind. How do you compete with a multi-billion dollar industry that has the average citizen so tightly gripped? What do you do? I know of at least half of the people that I know who REFUSE to support Ron Paul, refuse to support him because they listen to Hannity, Beck, Rush, etc. They view these people as gods, as if they have all the answers. It's not possible to get through to them. Anything I say is wrong or a lie because I'm a "brainwashed Paulbot."

[silverhandorder]

You know not all grassroots works the same way. For example people that want to be more active will gravitate to the grassroots organizations that offer that. Such as meet ups, cfl, daily paul (I get the impression that they are more activist orientated.)

To try and make RPF into something like that is counter productive. RPF on it's own way very successful.

[Article V]

If we don't change our forum/grassroots mentality, we will lose (this election). Plain and simple.
...
We will literally be the end of ourselves, most of us are the very sheeple we condemn the rest of the country of being.
...
If you are here to win, you better start changing the way you operate on these forums and in your free-time.So you're suggesting we do more of the same?

Sorry, I don't see any useful suggestion in your OP for adaptation, and the mods will shut you down quickly if you even try to evolve your thought into a worthwhile suggestion that Ron Paul's campaign could or should be doing something differently. (Critical analysis and suggestions for adaptation are not welcome here in the Grassroots RPF. We only allow anti-establishment news paired with our own rah-rah-rah's -- submitted in either pic, YouTube, or message form.)

The forums are for groupthink: everything is rosy here; when voting results are below expectations, it's the medias fault; there's a conspiracy against us; let's have another Moneybomb; our delegate strategy is working perfectly; and if we just push a little bit more, we'll finally cross the tipping point threshold we've been angling toward for months after months after months...

[bbwarfield]

I never got why a real activist network hast been made. I mean... I can say whatever I want on a forum or chat room and it effects not one thing I do in the rest of my day..... but if we stop being anonymous people to eachother..... just sans serif and times new romans..... but get on the phones. CALL people (you know that all my invites to events have been text messages and facebook? I heard not one human voice inviting me to an event.... And when I got to the event.... i met know one.... I didnt connect to anybody. I found the two people I knew and stayed with them) we need to hear each others voices over the electric telephone. Then we can start truly being organized and work as a real group. OUt there in, what I affectionately call "the real world", instead of just in here... on our majical forums of activism. We gotta be a face and a voice to eachother.... not just an avatar and a witty quote involving our love of the good Dr.

[gerryb]

Some suggestions:
Attend a workshop and learn the techniques for winning hosted by:
Leadership Institute
American Majority

http://phone.ronpaul2012.com

Organize a local group (recruit via meetup.com, facebook ads($75 of free coupons per member), google ads(up to $100 free coupons per member). Work with the camapign in your state and see if they have lists of current supporters.
Get your local group to take over the GOP "establishment". The GOP is a grassroots run and elected organization. We have superior grassroots, right? Prove it. Take them over.

Start an issue organization about something you're passionate about.

Organize a campus(Use YFP or YAL campus training/techniques for recruiting)

[hb6102]

If eleganz hasnt said it 100 times already, PHONE FROM HOME!!!!

[soulcyon]

I've come to the conclusion that there is some conspiracy going on at the GOP. The only way to beat the mainstream media is to become the mainstream media - there's no way around it.

[bbwarfield]

oooohhhh..... phone from home is suppose to be calling people who arent Ron Paul supporters.... not other paul supporters... right... forget that whole thing on hearing eachothers voices.

[Paul Revered]

"DO SOMETHING." Do what, exactly? What do you suggest?

The OP already suggested it, "stop speculating." I've organized members of my community to become delegates. Aside from that, I come to these forums throughout almost all of every day, looking for ammunition. I take that information to various forums. In the one forum that I'm in, there were only two vocal Ron Paul supporters, including myself, a few months ago. Now there are dozens. I can't measure what part I played in that; but I suspect that it was the bulk of it. Speculation and misinformation do irreversible damage to my credibility; and it will be used against me by my opponents, for months in the future. I learned this lesson the hard way in 2007. Since then I've had to check out each and every post in these forums, with the purported source. That's time consuming. What is also time consuming is wading through masses of threads which don't serve to yield valuable information. When I'm searching, I'm not posting. When I'm not posting; I'm not building support for our cause.

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

I, like many people, use the forums as a way to catch up on information I may be missing. I come here in search of crucial information, campaign news, election news, policy, education, and various other things such as civil discussion.

Activism starts in the mind. Learning as much as we can, so we can continue this trend of growth, for future generations. If the message--the cause--is lost to the pages of history, then who emerges in the end? If we abandon our efforts in spreading the word, or educating ourselves, what will our future hold? Without discussion, debate, and even argumentation, would humanity truly learn anything of importance? We can plant seeds of corruption, or we can plant seeds of liberty. Either one, will blossom, if the other fails to gain dominance. Activism starts in the mind, as I said, and we can only encourage both. Scolding others for their beliefs, or their level of motivation, will only further discourage them from trying.

[kathy88]

So you're suggesting we do more of the same?

Sorry, I don't see any suggestion in your OP for adaptation, and the mods will shut you down quickly if you even try to evolve your thought into a worthwhile suggestion that Ron Paul's campaign could or should be doing something differently. (Critical analysis and suggestions for adaptation are not welcome here in the Grassroots RPF. We only allow anti-establishment news paired with our own rah-rah-rah's -- submitted in either pic, YouTube, or message form.)

The forums are for groupthink: everything is rosy here; when voting results are below expectations, it's the medias fault; there's a conspiracy against us; let's have another Moneybomb; our delegate strategy is working perfectly; and if we just push a little bit more, we'll finally cross the tipping point threshold we've been angling toward for months after months after months...

Some have been at it for years and years. Negativity permeates quickly. Blaming everyone else is the easy way out but unfortunately the media does black us out. The establishment GOP doesn't want us. The tea party was infiltrated with neocons. Votes have been tampered with. People don't show up. Americans are fat lazy and brainwashed. It's not a conspiracy it's just the way things are. We do our best individually to the best of our abilities with what we have. Those of us who have experienced this political roller coaster are used to it. We keep on because our cause is just. So forgive us if we don't like hearing over and over again that the campaign sucks and we aren't doing enough. As for the mods I wouldn't want to deal with this group of whining infants (myself included) for anything. So I hope you forgive me when I say STFU.

[eleganz]

oooohhhh..... phone from home is suppose to be calling people who arent Ron Paul supporters.... not other paul supporters... right... forget that whole thing on hearing eachothers voices.

PFH is currently calling RP supporters and getting them out to the caucus in WA. We have the numbers to win but we need turnout.

So instead of complaining about PFH, just get on it and do what you gotta do.

What else can you do? speculate on RPF?

[floridasun1983]

The OP already suggested it, "stop speculating." I've organized members of my community to become delegates. Aside from that, I come to these forums throughout almost all of every day, looking for ammunition. I take that information to various forums. In the one forum that I'm in, there were only two vocal Ron Paul supporters, including myself, a few months ago. Now there are dozens. I can't measure what part I played in that; but I suspect that it was the bulk of it. Speculation and misinformation do irreversible damage to my credibility; and it will be used against me by my opponents, for months in the future. I learned this lesson the hard way in 2007. Since then I've had to check out each and every post in these forums, with the purported source. That's time consuming. What is also time consuming is wading through masses of threads which don't serve to yield valuable information. When I'm searching, I'm not posting. When I'm not posting; I'm not building support for our cause.Sorry, but "stop speculating" isn't much of a plan. Actually, the OP is doing a great deal of speculating on his or her own, by speculating that nobody is doing enough to help. That would be incorrect. I am donating money to the campaign. I have bumper stickers and signs. I share RP news on Facebook. I VOTED for Dr. Paul, which apparently is a lot more than most of his cheerleaders actually do. I delivered other votes for Dr. Paul in the form of converts.

Frankly I get offended with these "the reason we're not winning is because YOU aren't doing enough" threads.

[eleganz]

Sorry, but "stop speculating" isn't much of a plan. Actually, the OP is doing a great deal of speculating on his or her own, by speculating that nobody is doing enough to help. That would be incorrect. I am donating money to the campaign. I have bumper stickers and signs. I share RP news on Facebook. I VOTED for Dr. Paul, which apparently is a lot more than most of his cheerleaders actually do. I delivered other votes for Dr. Paul in the form of converts.

Frankly I get offended with these "the reason we're not winning is because YOU aren't doing enough" threads.


If you feel you are doing enough, you shouldn't be offended.


Seriously, we're fighting the largest, most powerful conglomeration of greed and corruption and you're whining about someone that isn't even talking about you?

I thought this was a REVOLUTION.

[Lord Xar]

So you're suggesting we do more of the same?

Sorry, I don't see any useful suggestion in your OP for adaptation, and the mods will shut you down quickly if you even try to evolve your thought into a worthwhile suggestion that Ron Paul's campaign could or should be doing something differently. (Critical analysis and suggestions for adaptation are not welcome here in the Grassroots RPF. We only allow anti-establishment news paired with our own rah-rah-rah's -- submitted in either pic, YouTube, or message form.)

The forums are for groupthink: everything is rosy here; when voting results are below expectations, it's the medias fault; there's a conspiracy against us; let's have another Moneybomb; our delegate strategy is working perfectly; and if we just push a little bit more, we'll finally cross the tipping point threshold we've been angling toward for months after months after months...

Posts like this rather infuriate me. Either you are out of touch with the reality of the situation or you are part of the problem. Read Kathy88 post above. That poster gets it. You don't. Eleganz is frustrated and rightly so. It is frustrating when someone is giving 120% and another is giving 2%. And the 2% has the energy to wax poetic or "give their righteous opinions" on the primary while not bothering to get into the fray. He is probably tired, over-worked, over-stressed and he is BEGGING FOR HELP!! Help to get Ron Paul elected and you just shit on it... A few people are doing a HELL OF A LOT behind the scenes paddling the boat for the rest of you.

So are you gonna make calls, pass out flyers, get the word out or are you gonna quietly support a man this country so desperately needs....

Anyways. Eleganz is 10000% right.

[splanky]

I've come to the conclusion that there is some conspiracy going on at the GOP. The only way to beat the mainstream media is to become the mainstream media - there's no way around it.

Conspiracy at the GOP? Who'da thunkit? No, seriously, your remark about the media is right on. TV is like the typewriter, only useful as a reminder of things antiquated. Whether we win this thing or not, interactive media will assure an ultimate reversal of the top down system that has plagued us for so long. And our folks happen to know more about it than the old msm cadavers do. It's in the works but takes more time than we want it to. We'll get there. Well, since I'm a boomer, YOU'LL get there.

[azxd]

You won't read this thread because you don't like the truth. We lose if we don't ADAPT.
Adapt ?
How about staying on course and voting for the principles you believe in ?
How about supporting someone who .... Nevermind :p
Your frustraton does not need to be mine.

[JJ2]

I am disgusted with the Paul supporters who don't vote. I'm all for GOTV efforts, don't get me wrong, but why should we have to call each other to make sure we vote, and even then we have low turnout??

I mean no one had to call me and tell me to vote. I just voted. Period. Even if you don't think your vote will matter or that it won't be counted or that there's election fraud, it's very easy to vote (especially in primary states) and how can it possibly harm Paul's chances of winning?

Who could say they support Paul and want him to be President and then just not vote? Are people really that lazy? I just don't get it.

/rant

[eleganz]

Adapt ?
How about staying on course and voting for the principles you believe in ?
How about supporting someone who .... Nevermind :p
Your frustraton does not need to be mine.

Even Ron Paul adapted throughout his life and perfected his character (compassion, tolerance, patience, among others). He didn't become who he is today by not WALKING his TALK. <---did you see what I just did there?

[Mikakaze]

I say let people do what they do best/enjoy doing. Most of us are here for the same reason, we just have different methods/goals. There are plenty of us who may have already accepted the fact the Ron may not win this time around, but that the cause itself would not be lost as a result. We have some people here fighting for the long haul and working to better understand the process and figure out how to best influence/inform others...whether it be by exposing the bias of MSM or learning to use the tools of social media to relay a certain message. I know this thread is probably directly referencing the "possible fraud evidence" thread, and it just may be that those who are really involved in that effort feel that it's a much more significant issue or they are at least more equipped to handle it than working on PFH. It makes no sense to try and derail such efforts...just focus on what you feel is important and allow others to do the same.

[eleganz]

I am disgusted with the Paul supporters who don't vote. I'm all for GOTV efforts, don't get me wrong, but why should we have to call each other to make sure we vote, and even then we have low turnout??

I mean no one had to call me and tell me to vote. I just voted. Period. Even if you don't think your vote will matter or that it won't be counted or that there's election fraud, it's very easy to vote (especially in primary states) and how can it possibly harm Paul's chances of winning?

Who could say they support Paul and want him to be President and then just not vote? Are people really that lazy? I just don't get it.

/rant

I agree, but the reality is that it happens and that is what our supposedly 'ORGANIZED GRASSROOTS' is supposed to be doing.

Apparently we can't even do that.

[eleganz]

Posts like this rather infuriate me. Either you are out of touch with the reality of the situation or you are part of the problem. Read Kathy88 post above. That poster gets it. You don't. Eleganz is frustrated and rightly so. It is frustrating when someone is giving 120% and another is giving 2%. And the 2% has the energy to wax poetic or "give their righteous opinions" on the primary while not bothering to get into the fray. He is probably tired, over-worked, over-stressed and he is BEGGING FOR HELP!! Help to get Ron Paul elected and you just shit on it... A few people are doing a HELL OF A LOT behind the scenes paddling the boat for the rest of you.

So are you gonna make calls, pass out flyers, get the word out or are you gonna quietly support a man this country so desperately needs....

Anyways. Eleganz is 10000% right.

Don't mind me, I just BOLDED the parts you were 100% spot on.

[speciallyblend]

we vote on state delegates march 10th and in april we vote on national delegates ,so nothing is finished in colorado! just saying

[azxd]

Even Ron Paul adapted throughout his life and perfected his character (compassion, tolerance, patience, among others). He didn't become who he is today by not WALKING his TALK. <---did you see what I just did there?
Uhm,
Learned to hold down the shift key while typing :D

[azxd]

It makes no sense to try and derail such efforts...just focus on what you feel is important and allow others to do the same.
I'll do my best to handle such freedom ;)

[singe22]

This is why i say, if this was the days after the declaration of independance, most of you would of jump on a ship back to england to serve the crown. Much respect to the founding fathers/patriots that lost their life. At least those that died fighting for freedom wasnt in vain till maybe 100 years ago.

[eleganz]

This is why i say, if this was the days after the declaration of independance, most of you would of jump on a ship back to england to serve the crown. Much respect to the founding fathers/patriots that lost their life. At least those that died fighting for freedom wasnt in vain till maybe 100 years ago.


This is how I feel ....rather strongly too.

[coffeewithchess]

I think the problem is we're fighting blind. How do you compete with a multi-billion dollar industry that has the average citizen so tightly gripped? What do you do? I know of at least half of the people that I know who REFUSE to support Ron Paul, refuse to support him because they listen to Hannity, Beck, Rush, etc. They view these people as gods, as if they have all the answers. It's not possible to get through to them. Anything I say is wrong or a lie because I'm a "brainwashed Paulbot."

This is pretty close to the truth here, speaking from my own experiences as well. There is no waking these people up now, as they are 100% brainwashed. They cannot talk/debate points, they resort to name-calling, 99.8% of the time.
Every single political Facebook conversation with these people, resorts in only them name-calling either the RP supporters or RP himself. It doesn't matter that you bring up the national debt, polls against Obama, directly point out the lies on Fox News...Fox News/Hannity/Rush/Levin/Beck can do no wrong.
They literally believe the LIES out of their mouths, when they are shown to be lying.

As for the OP, I'm not sure what evidence has been presented other than a FEW posts at best, showing that PFH has much benefit. Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire (did or didn't have it?), South Carolina...

As for dealing with the Fox News viewers, a few videos that have worked in silencing some are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_wQCbED2MQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qFqoj771GQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFLt7u4Gy0

[splanky]

Who would title a thread like this? Someone who doesn't think first?

[eleganz]

As for the OP, I'm not sure what evidence has been presented other than a FEW posts at best, showing that PFH has much benefit. Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire (did or didn't have it?), South Carolina...


Wow, the ignorance it takes to post something like this....

I understand you may not have been able to see first hand the BENEFITS of PFH but it doesn't take a GENIUS to acknowledge how identifying supporters from the comfort of your own home and getting them out to vote is beneficial to a presidential campaign.

[Ivash]

This is why i say, if this was the days after the declaration of independance, most of you would of jump on a ship back to england to serve the crown. Much respect to the founding fathers/patriots that lost their life. At least those that died fighting for freedom wasnt in vain till maybe 100 years ago.

GOD SAVE THE KING!

[coffeewithchess]

Wow, the ignorance it takes to post something like this....

I understand you may not have been able to see first hand the BENEFITS of PFH but it doesn't take a GENIUS to acknowledge how identifying supporters and getting them out to vote is beneficial to a presidential campaign.

Not ignorance at all. The issue here was the campaign failed to win Iowa, and it was downhill since then. Iowa was going to be the surprise, but they were not prepared for the kitchen sink that got tossed their way...and the lack of their response in an effective way (ignoring it is not effective), looks like it worked against them. Can you tell me what candidate has the supporters RP does, and have placed/gotten more calls out than RP? Do you seriously believe Rick Santorum had more phone calls placed than RP did?
The simple fact is, the RP campaign chose to ignore some glaring issues, and they alone are to blame. Not me, not you, not anybody else. The campaign has raised millions, and if they can't tailor their message in a proper way, and work WITH the media...that's not on us. The fact a Ron Paul PAC, A PAC, had to release an ad trying to address a big issue the media destroyed him with right before Iowa, shows how unprepared the campaign was...with an issue they should have been prepared for.
Rick Santorum had at least a full 2 weeks of free positive media coverage, and the RP campaign FAILED to get out an attack ad on him before Iowa.

[eleganz]

Not ignorance at all. The issue here was the campaign failed to win Iowa, and it was downhill since then. Iowa was going to be the surprise, but they were not prepared for the kitchen sink that got tossed their way...and the lack of their response in an effective way (ignoring it is not effective), looks like it worked against them. Can you tell me what candidate has the supporters RP does, and have placed/gotten more calls out than RP? Do you seriously believe Rick Santorum had more phone calls placed than RP did?
The simple fact is, the RP campaign chose to ignore some glaring issues, and they alone are to blame. Not me, not you, not anybody else. The campaign has raised millions, and if they can't tailor their message in a proper way, and work WITH the media...that's not on us. The fact a Ron Paul PAC, A PAC, had to release an ad trying to address a big issue the media destroyed him with right before Iowa, shows how unprepared the campaign was...with an issue they should have been prepared for.
Rick Santorum had at least a full 2 weeks of free positive media coverage, and the RP campaign FAILED to get out an attack ad on him before Iowa.

That is the past, you can write a letter to the campaign telling them how they should've sent out an attack ad before Iowa, see how much help that does for this election



So what are you going to do NOW?

[Article V]

So you're suggesting we do more of the same?

Sorry, I don't see any useful suggestion in your OP for adaptation, and the mods will shut you down quickly if you even try to evolve your thought into a worthwhile suggestion that Ron Paul's campaign could or should be doing something differently. (Critical analysis and suggestions for adaptation are not welcome here in the Grassroots RPF. We only allow anti-establishment news paired with our own rah-rah-rah's -- submitted in either pic, YouTube, or message form.)

The forums are for groupthink: everything is rosy here; when voting results are below expectations, it's the medias fault; there's a conspiracy against us; let's have another Moneybomb; our delegate strategy is working perfectly; and if we just push a little bit more, we'll finally cross the tipping point threshold we've been angling toward for months after months after months...
Some have been at it for years and years. Negativity permeates quickly. Blaming everyone else is the easy way out but unfortunately the media does black us out. The establishment GOP doesn't want us. The tea party was infiltrated with neocons. Votes have been tampered with. People don't show up. Americans are fat lazy and brainwashed. It's not a conspiracy it's just the way things are. We do our best individually to the best of our abilities with what we have. Those of us who have experienced this political roller coaster are used to it. We keep on because our cause is just. So forgive us if we don't like hearing over and over again that the campaign sucks and we aren't doing enough. As for the mods I wouldn't want to deal with this group of whining infants (myself included) for anything. So I hope you forgive me when I say STFU.
Posts like this rather infuriate me. Either you are out of touch with the reality of the situation or you are part of the problem. Read Kathy88 post above. That poster gets it. You don't. Eleganz is frustrated and rightly so. It is frustrating when someone is giving 120% and another is giving 2%. And the 2% has the energy to wax poetic or "give their righteous opinions" on the primary while not bothering to get into the fray. He is probably tired, over-worked, over-stressed and he is BEGGING FOR HELP!! Help to get Ron Paul elected and you just shit on it... A few people are doing a HELL OF A LOT behind the scenes paddling the boat for the rest of you.

So are you gonna make calls, pass out flyers, get the word out or are you gonna quietly support a man this country so desperately needs....

Anyways. Eleganz is 10000% right.I'm being realistic. Not negative. And when I tried countless times to be constructive, the mods shut down the threads because they don't allow for any questions on if we're operating as efficiently as we could be. We all have to swallow the media-is-bad, more-moneybombs, keep-phoning, sign-wave, rally-rally, polls-are-wrong, brokered-convention-will-happen, we're-secretly-2nd-in-delegates, and we're-totally-gonna-win-Iowa-(I mean, Nevada...I mean, Maine... I mean, Washington... I mean, Louisiana... I mean...)-groupthink-mantra that we're being force-fed, or we're somehow bad for the campaign.

Face it, our efforts are not producing the results we'd like because we fail to acknowledge that voters make decisions in the same way investors make decisions. And just like investors occasionally get caught into a stock-market bubble fueled by groupthink, so too the larger electorate and the media are now stuck in a Ron-Paul-can't-win bubble... while our own Grassroots and mods are stuck in a smaller, it's-everyone's-fault-but-ours bubble. In other words, if Americans are fat, lazy and brainwashed into believing Ron Paul can't win (which is partially true), then we're also fat, lazy and brainwashed into believing that everything we're doing is right and it's everyone else's fault but ours that we're not winning

Like many of you, I've been at this for years too. I've traveled the country (actually world) for Ron Paul, donated thousands for Ron Paul, lost/won friendships for liberty, and given up more than any of you will ever know to help our movement. Phone-calls, flyers, GOTV, etc? Those are child's play for me. I do them more often than bowel movements, so kindly check yourself. Right now, I'm in a 4-person email thread with Rockwell, Wead, and Block where they're all saying how brilliant and right I am; but try to question things here... and the mob attacks you.

Face it, if voters are herding, then we are too--only in a different way. And our herding is hurting is us, just like the larger-electorate's herding is hurting them.

If people in our movement actually understood economics and praxeology, they'd recognize more readily the productivity of dissent. Instead, we proclaim that "dissent against government is patriotic and useful," while at the same time deluding ourselves into the sanctimonious belief that dissent against RPF and the RP2012 campaign's centralized authority is hurtful and should be squashed immediately.

....Read: The Wisdom of Crowds. It'll teach you a lot about the bubble our movement has put itself in, while also teaching you a lot about the groupthink bubble of the media and the electorate-at-large. Once an understanding of those pervade our movement, we'll be much better equipped to handle the problem, have patience with the problem, and structure ourselves in such a way that our good ideas (read: Where Good Ideas Come From) actually reach up the campaign planners without getting lost in the tidal wave of 'more of the same' messages they receive.

[eleganz]

^^^^ so what is YOUR solution?


You have not provided one, except for everyone to QUIT because you were right?



From what I gathered, you more or less AGREE with the OP that we need to get to work. If not, you're saying we need to quit? Which one is it? Because you're hinting at both.

[coffeewithchess]

That is the past, you can write a letter to the campaign telling them how they should've sent out an attack ad before Iowa, see how much help that does for this election

So what are you going to do NOW?

Making videos to help destroy the MSM and try to wake up a few more Americans, such as...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6NkROh0ni4

If somebody is a Ron Paul supporter, and they don't know what day it is to vote in their state; I would find that very ironic. The fact is the campaign is still missing the BOAT apparently, as you can read about:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?364040-About-Springfield-tonight....

That was posted today. As for writing the campaign, I have done that very thing. I also was the one that called the campaign LAST year and told them they needed to add the RonPaul2012.com hyperlink to their YouTube videos in the description, because they weren't doing it...and they corrected that.
If RP and/or the campaign doesn't want to address Social Security, foreign policy, and stop ignoring requests to go on the largest "news" show on tv, there's nothing I can do about that.

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

I suggest everyone in this thread, go and read George Washington's Newburgh Address. Like pronto.

[Natural Citizen]

THIS IS A REVOLUTION & YOU BETTER F'ING ACT LIKE YOU'RE FIGHTING IN ONE IF YOU WANT RON PAUL TO BE PRESIDENT PAUL

Renaissance must exist for Revolution to occur. That's just the way it is. Paul is leaving freedoms message to thousands in attendance by the day and offering an accurate assessment of the state of the union to ears where neither can be unheard. Let him have his victory in that regard.

[Article V]

If RP and/or the campaign doesn't want to address Social Security, foreign policy, and stop ignoring requests to go on the largest "news" show on tv, there's nothing I can do about that.Bingo!

For whatever reason, the campaign has gone out of their way to try to get Ron Paul in as few hostile environments as possible. But the irony is, I bet most people in the Ron Paul movement discovered Ron Paul through his participation in some hostile environment (whether it was a biased political debate with Giuliani, a bigoted interview with Hannity, or any of the other innumerable hostile environments Ron Paul and the liberty movement find themselves in).

The lesson is: Ron Paul needs to be part of every discussion at every turn, even if the discussion is there only to attack him. Ron Paul supporters won't leave him, and his detractors may be awoken by RP adversity just as readily as RP propaganda. In other words, Ron Paul needs to cooperate to win, especially if that cooperation is through the competition of ideas. That's what debates are about: cooperating in competition; that's what legal commerce is about: cooperating in competition; that's what art is about: cooperating in competition. We've all but surrendered the field to O'Reilly and Hannity and Huckabee, etc. because we continually refuse to appear where we're most despised. Ghandi, MLK, Rosa Parks, etc. didn't transform nations by avoiding invitations into hostile environments; instead, they welcomed the hostility because they recognized it as yet another opportunity to expose truth.

We may hate O'Reilly (and we're right to hate him) but he still shapes the discussion simply because he talks so much. Even if the neocons hate Ron Paul, Ron Paul can still shape the discussion more just by talking more. That's the nature of how groups operate; he who talks early has more influence, he who talks often has more influence. It's true of small groups, it's true of the media, it's true of businesses, it's true of juries, it's true of 5th-grade clicks, it's true everywhere. Doesn't matter who is wrong or right, it's just how people in groups operate. We evolved to be this way, so we better learn to use it to our advantage rather than pretending it's not true.

Remember: John Adams was despised by most of the Continental Congress because he wouldn't shut up about American Independence. The Founders all acknowledged he was "obnoxious and disliked"; but his harping shaped the discussion and allowed the ideas to break through, till eventually they each signed a unanimous resolution agreeing with Adams, making them all traitors to the crown and men marked for execution.

Ron Paul needs to get out there in the media wherever possible as often as possible. He who talks most shapes the discussion.

[JJ2]

Ron Paul needs to get out there in the media wherever possible as often as possible. He who talks most shapes the discussion.

+16 trillion. ;) Absolutely agreed. +Rep

[PolicyReader]

This forum is a big place and there are lots of reasons people can come here and uses that the forum may be put to.
Having said that let me point out that I am reading this thread in a sub-forum called Grassroots Central
I as many before me in this thread come here for resources and information for useful news and figures that I can pass along to undecided voters or use as responses in debates about Ron Paul. I come here to learn what (if anything) I can do from my remote location to help support the efforts of activist individuals who are on the ground in up coming and current states. There are many things to be done, and the OP has listed a nice selection (with the offer to add any others that are suggested), the OP has also spend sweat offline gathering supporters and networking in CA to get us much needed traction there.

And frankly Eleganz is correct there is far more gossip and speculation here in Grassroots Central than is productive.
Does this mean everything posted here is useless or that GRC isn't a valuable tool to actual networking? No, it does not mean either of those things.
What it does mean is that the forum gets gummed up with fluff while substantive posts often drop four pages back within an hour or two.
I make it a practice to try and not call anyone out but in this case I'm going to make a mild exception and say this: If you are doing things to help the campaign, if you donate, phone from home, get out the vote, convert new voters, organize meet ups, become a delegate, et al then this message is not directed to you but if you spent more time arm chair quarterbacking with hindsight than you do on constructive activities you are not helping elect Ron Paul. There are suggestion sections of this forum, there are vent sections, news sections, hot topic sections, the Official Campaign has an e-mail address many of its advisers have facebook pages etc. the point is that while what someone is doing may be valid (yes even some of the speculation and gossip and certainly sharing touching stories is valid) that does not mean that Grassroots Central is the place for it.

People who show up to GRC intending to use it as a tool for coordinating grassroots efforts can find it frustrating that so many posts here seem to contain little regarding grassroots action. What if a new delegate for Paul who is looking for support comes here and misses the threads containing information about Ron Paul Country, or about Roberts Rules of Order, or the shady tricks used against Paul delegates in 2008 because those threads fall off the front page(s) so quickly to be replaced by things like "Paul isn't attacking Romney enough, they have a deal to make Rand VP". That new delegate could miss valuable information which might cost them their seat, OR they could believe that chatter and give up there by not attending meetings and losing their seat without the Status Quo chickenhawks even lifting a finger.
Or what if someone (after maxing in donations) gathers together a skilled team and develops a tool (funded out of their own pocket) to provide stronger Get Out the Vote efforts, efforts that could turn the tide in places where another ~3% of the vote would swing things our way, and they start a thread here looking for supporters to volunteer to use this tool ... and that thread falls off the main pages without a single response. Because that very thing happened this week.

My lady and I are effectively flat broke since my independent contracts started to dry up in this econ, we have kids to feed, and guess what we've gotten ourselves/each other from all our friends and relatives who bothered to ask during 2011-2012? Donations to Ron Paul.
I know a lot of people who are Dems, Indys, and neocons. Some of those are family and I've lost count of the number of times I've heard personal attacks from people in my social circle because if I hear a falsehood (for example the "newsletters" rhetoric or how blowback doesn't exist) I don't let it slide. I will calmly and respectfully object and point out the information I have to the contrary but there are many people who won't hear it, and who if you don't "admit" that they're right all along will become hostile. I know there are people reading this who have done the same, but I bet there are people reading this who have remained quite to avoid rocking the boat as well, who's going to tell me I have no right to be frustrated about that?

This election is not a game, it's not theory and it's not "just the first step" or "a great way to set up for 2016/2020". The damage being done to our liberties, to our economy, to the fundamental way of life in this nation is not only real it is Excelerating.
I know soldiers, lawyers, military contractors, people from all walks of private and digital security and while I won't violate their confidence by relating their privet words in a public forum I can tell you this bluntly none of them feel remotely comfortable with that status or direction of this nation and it's not some external threat they're worrying about.

As Dr. Paul has said "what happens if I'm wrong? Nothing. But what happens if I'm not wrong?" I quote his words here because bluntly we would do well to think more like that (again if you're out there being active then I'm not talking to you, in fact you can take this as a heart felt thank you).
Come what may in this election I'm not going to stop fighting for liberty, but that doesn't make "lets shoot for 2016" a good plan right now in 2012.

I do not hold myself up as the pan ultimate example but I am trying, I'm literally losing some sleep over this (working not worrying) and I literally have pushed myself till it hurts to get things done. I'm not relying on the Official Campaign to take care of this election for us, that's not what grassroots is all about. I think they do pretty well, and I hope they continue to improve on it but I'm not going to wait on them no matter how well they are doing and neither should anyone else.
If you personally don't want to be a part of that it is your prerogative but if that's your choice I request you excuse yourself from Grassroots Central so that those who do want to make that endeavor can use this tool to do so more effectively.
I know Combat Veterans who are working 70+ hours a week, have kids and are still both going out of pocket and volunteering their time (on top of donations) to get Ron Paul elected in 2012, as a proponent of Liberty I can't say what anyone else "should" do but personally I can't help but feel I should try and match their dedication and go beyond the yellow ribbon into sharing their sweat strain and toil. This is where I am coming from. So I will close by reiterating a request I've made before

If your post isn't constructive and helping to grow our grassroots efforts, please PLEASE chose another section of the forum in which to post it. Thank you.
Note, asking for information is in my book 100% productive. Clearly what is or isn't productive is a judgement call, I'm just requesting that the idea be part of the thought process because we are in the middle of a battle that is both uphill and vital.

2c

[singe22]

I dont know what media your watching. But everytime Ron Paul goes on the "BIG shows", the only questions he are asked are about 3rd party running, How do you feel about Mitt Romney or other candidates, hurting his sons political future, your foreign policy is isolationist, you blame america etc etc. They make him look like a loon because he has to slam all of his campaign message into a 30 second response not even related to the question he is asked, if they arent cutting him off, losing the feed or other technical problems.

Have we gone ignorant to the fact of the countless debates he has had less than 5 mins of total talk time.

Reopen your eyes, the MSM isnt going to give him a time of day even if he had the money to pay them for a primetime slot. The man has been getting underminded for 20+ years being called crazy and fringe. But boy when the MSM needs Economic information he gets alot of talking time.

[eleganz]

If anybody was paying attention POLICY READER just had a badass post that deserves it's own thread.

+rep...HE UNDERSTANDS...unlike some.

[parocks]

oooohhhh..... phone from home is suppose to be calling people who arent Ron Paul supporters.... not other paul supporters... right... forget that whole thing on hearing eachothers voices.

Phone from home is supposed to be
1) calling everybody, and asking them if they're Ron Paul supporters
then
2) calling the Ron Paul supporters and asking them to vote.

[Crotale]

Agree with the OP 100%. Less chit chat, more activism. Sign up on www.RonPaulCountry.com and get coordinating with local grassroots activists.

[Khun Jean]

I see the opposition to Ron Paul differently. From a Dutch man living in Thailand perspective.
It is an all out attempt to not let Ron Paul win, because if he does drastic measures have to be taken.

I guess Ron Paul is knowing that, but do you?

Would a drastic event make you 'revolutionary'?
Because then it will be to late!
You do understand this don't you!

Better to start the 'revolution' now!
Use internet for recruiting, but go out on the streets and protest.
Not with a few hundred in a march to the white house. How pathetic was that!
Numbers should be in the millions, or at the start at least a few hundred thousand!!!

Until that happens, nothing will change.

And with what i have seen until now, Americans are unable to organize a protest, like true sheep.

Proof me and the rest of the world wrong. Show some balls!

[nobody's_hero]

Dang it, I thought this thread was gonna be the true truth, not the "truth".

[speciallyblend]

If anybody was paying attention POLICY READER just had a badass post that deserves it's own thread.

+rep...HE UNDERSTANDS...unlike some.

everyone understands what is going on. just sayin!

[Crotale]

We need a massive tidy up of RPF as a matter of priority IMO. We need to stop every little piece of trivia gravitating towards GRC and keep it in relevant sub forums. We can only be effective if we're tidy and organised. Important initiatives get buried under useless chit-chat.

[jdcole]

Bump for justice.

[Barrex]

Eleganz, PolicyReader, Article V all have valid points.
I noticed all those (and other) problems in my first few weeks on pro-Ron Paul sites. I pointed on different problems in 6-7 of my threads and offered solutions(all of them are cheap or free, easy to do and simple).But since I dont bump my own threads (seems wrong somehow) most of them were pushed on page 5+ within 24 hours.

This is important: we started to talk about these things. Problem is transition from talk to action.

[speciallyblend]

the root of the problem is the corrupt biggovgop leadership.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

the establishment made peaceful revolution impossible. Every state Paul had the best chance at winning, votes went missing or they just stopped counting votes when Romney has a lead.

[ClydeCoulter]

Okay, I'm sitting here reading another, "Do Something".

I want to do something, I talk to people around me, dontate what I can, etc... but want to do more, need to learn more.

I am in the middle of nowhere in a low population area in the country in Indiana. I know Indiana is not a high priority right now, but without a head start we won't be in a good position when the time comes. I have contacted people for info on others in my area, no luck there. I'm ready to help how I can, but I seem to be in a vaccuum here.

I agree that this GRC needs to be cleaned up for actual "doing" at the GR level.

For someone new to being active in politics (and older) that wants to get involved, where to start? It seems like pulling teeth.

[Liberty74]

Unless you can put a muzzle on Rush, Beck, Levin, Hannity and the rest of the vile and hateful fake conservatives, there isn't much else we can do. They got their marching orders from the top to smear Ron back in December and it's been downhill from there.

Ranting in a thread doesn't change reality. We don't have 4 to 8 years to fight the fight. America is practically over. The campaign has miscalculated too many times. They aren't even fighting back or calling out the media or talk radio.

Ron needs to go NUCLEAR or continue to wait for unforeseen event to wake the masses up. Again, time is running out.

[LibertyEagle]

So you're suggesting we do more of the same?

Sorry, I don't see any useful suggestion in your OP for adaptation, and the mods will shut you down quickly if you even try to evolve your thought into a worthwhile suggestion that Ron Paul's campaign could or should be doing something differently. (Critical analysis and suggestions for adaptation are not welcome here in the Grassroots RPF. We only allow anti-establishment news paired with our own rah-rah-rah's -- submitted in either pic, YouTube, or message form.)

The forums are for groupthink: everything is rosy here; when voting results are below expectations, it's the medias fault; there's a conspiracy against us; let's have another Moneybomb; our delegate strategy is working perfectly; and if we just push a little bit more, we'll finally cross the tipping point threshold we've been angling toward for months after months after months...

WTH??? The suggestion was not for you to come up with what the campaign should be doing differently. The suggestion was for YOU to get up off your ass and do something productive. You know, like participate in the Phone-from-Home program, etc.

[Tobias2dope]

As much of a nobody as I am, I still have made over 300 PFH calls and my fam has got at least one hundred signatures for delegates
and for RP in PA.

So I can at least say I helped to get RP on the PA ballot.

Look I actually did something albeit something small.

“I am only one, but I am one. I can't do everything, but I can do something. The something I ought to do, I can do. And by the grace of God, I will.”

[NoOneButPaul]

I just hope everyone remembers that this fight doesn't stop with this election.

For me personally, I've stopped donating and participating in the PFH (I got just over 100) because it became clear to me that Ron knows he can't win. Ron never talks about actually being President, he never offers any specific plans to the sheeple, and he isn't aggressive enough when he's actually given time to speak.

He doesn't appear to be in this to win, no matter what anyone wants to tell me. I've been following Paul since 2007, I've been following this campaign since it started, but it's become abundantly clear to me that this fight for Liberty has just started and even if Paul ended his campaign tomorrow nothing would change that. This is only year 5 in what's sure to be a struggle that will potentially last decades.

To all the people disagree, I respect your right to do so, but if we're going to win the only way we can do it is with flooding the convention with our delegates and even then it's a long shot. The focus for winning should be on the delegates...

However, while I hope everyone helps Paul out in any way you can I would ask that everyone realize that the real goal should be to get elected to their local governments and then try to spread the message that way.

Phoning from home is great and all but the best way to get the message out to a LARGE number of people is to get politically active in local and statewide elections, even if you don't win you can make a huge difference (much in the same way Paul is now) by taking the message straight to the people.

The real goal should be continuing to infiltrate the party from within so when the next Liberty leader (Rand or whoever) makes his run the game isn't so stacked against him.

I think with the right amount of legwork anyone can win almost any house seat, remember folks, we're the ones with time on our side and we're the ones who are right.

It might take voters in your area a few elections but as time goes on our message will only resonate deeper because WE ARE RIGHT and one glorious day there may be a true libertarian-republican revolution in this country. But sadly it will not be in 2012...

Some of you have called nearly 500 people in the PFH program, while that's amazing and something that you should all be proud of just ask yourself- how many people could I speak to if I actually ran for something in my local community or state?

Anyone out there with charisma or the natural ability to speak infront of crowds MUST use their gifts to spread the message and continue infiltrating the party- this is how we'll win in the long run- I promise.

[jbauer]

No he's right. If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything. Its all good and fine to b!tch about the media or fraud, but you beat that by standing up and doing something about it.

We are in TN and we made and hung signs at all the precincts in our county and we're organizing a rally for Saturday. We're getting the local media to come cover it. It can be done but you have to organize, promote and change peoples minds one at a time.


Isn't saying "we lose if we don't adapt" itself speculation?

[vechorik]

..............Our Ron Paul group has become a PAC and we are going to effect change on the local level..we are already supporting Ron Paul candidates locally..we have to first change our own back yards. All Politics is Local.

Our state RP group is also supporting liberty candidates in our state. Many of us are working within GOP. We WILL make a difference!

[vechorik]

.................................

Some of you have called nearly 500 people in the PFH program, while that's amazing and something that you should all be proud of just ask yourself- how many people could I speak to if I actually ran for something in my local community or state? ................

I phoned-from-home over 11,100 MYSELF, so you don't know what you're talking about, do you?
I don't mind you voicing your opinion, but I don't like you knocking the ONE program Dr. Paul has personally asked volunteers to do.
There's plenty of time to run for office -- in the meantime, we should CALL FROM HOME!

[ClydeCoulter]

I think with the right amount of legwork can win almost any house seat, remember folks, we're the ones with time on our side and we're the ones who are right.

I think the point is for many/some that it does not appear that time is on our side. Patriot Act, NDAA, SOPA, etc... when will all of these and other so called "acts" be rolled out to pound dissent into the ground. Not that I am saying we don't have time, but there is a increasingly accelerated move towards a total blackout of real freedom. Maybe that's why some here are saying we need to win this one, now. And I can feel their anxiety somewhat.

I'm really looking forward to Ron Paul vs Ben Bernanke today.

[NoOneButPaul]

I think the point is for many/some that it does not appear that time is on our side. Patriot Act, NDAA, SOPA, etc... when will all of these and other so called "acts" be rolled out to pound dissent into the ground. Not that I am saying we don't have time, but there is a increasingly accelerated move towards a total blackout of real freedom. Maybe that's why some here are saying we need to win this one, now. And I can feel their anxiety somewhat.

I'm really looking forward to Ron Paul vs Ben Bernanke today.

Those things scare the hell out of me to but we can't allow that fear to stop us from trying to run in elections. The way we stop or repeal those bills is by getting into the congress.

A lot of the movement is composed of 20 and 30somethings so I believe that time is our greatest asset, no matter how powerful the machine above us we will outlive it and with the right amount of effort we can replace it with our own machines of liberty.

And... if fascism is coming and it's coming that quickly... at least we'll be able to tell all of our fellow Americans, "I fucking told you so" right before we get thrown into the ovens together.

I tend to think we have a few decades, and in that time, we can fix this mess. But in order to do so, we have to start getting elected.

Research your state and your local communities, figure out what Rep. Seats would be easiest to win and go for it.

We aren't in our 70s, we're in our 20s and 30s, we could run in 10-15 straight elections before we even reached Paul's age, and as time goes on and restrictions on freedoms get greater and greater (which they will) and drones start to inhabit the skies above us, and our debt reaches into the 20 and 30 trillions, our message will resonate louder and louder and eventually we will win.

We have to start running for government positions, even if we lose we'll be able to speak to more people than we ever could online or on the phones...

[No Free Beer]

Isn't saying "we lose if we don't adapt" itself speculation?

This is precisely what the OP is talking about.

[wgadget]

BESIDES the constant bashing/marginalizing by the Powers That Think They Know Everything (talk radio hosts), I wonder if the ol' DHS ruling that if you are a Ron Paul voter you are considered a TERRORIST has anything to do with our poor vote outcome. Just food for thought...

[No Free Beer]

I agree with the OP.

I am guilty of doing what he is getting mad at, I think we all are to an extent, but lately I have been trying to help (with a few others) to organize another BIG moneybomb, one like BTO. Yet, at every step, someone has a better idea or something negative to say. I wish someone would just come out with an idea and roll with it. There are many angles and many ways we can work to help Dr. Paul. If one person wants to try and meet with people in their state...that's cool. If someone wants to help with promotion...that's cool. Phone from Home. Whatever it is, we need to get going. NOW.

I think a big problem is the chat room. That place has gone to shit. Rather than people either debating issues or coming up with good strategy for something, it's all pointless chit chat between a few people. It has really gotten quite pathetic. I am sorry if I am blunt about this, but the chat really pisses me off and that's why I don't go in much anymore. If you really think about it, the chat should be the easiest way to work together for promoting an idea or organizing strategy. Yet, it's used for pointless social interaction. (this does not mean that every single person in that chat is guilty of this. the people who engage in the pointless chit chat know who they are)

Lets come together and work. I live in Massachusetts and just recently got in touch with Mass Grassroots. If anyone in here is in Mass, hit me up in a private message (except Shem). Thanks.

[wgadget]

How about we just buy Nevada and set up for the collapse?

[A. Havnes]

I just hope everyone remembers that this fight doesn't stop with this election.

For me personally, I've stopped donating and participating in the PFH (I got just over 100) because it became clear to me that Ron knows he can't win. Ron never talks about actually being President, he never offers any specific plans to the sheeple, and he isn't aggressive enough when he's actually given time to speak.

He doesn't appear to be in this to win, no matter what anyone wants to tell me. I've been following Paul since 2007, I've been following this campaign since it started, but it's become abundantly clear to me that this fight for Liberty has just started and even if Paul ended his campaign tomorrow nothing would change that. This is only year 5 in what's sure to be a struggle that will potentially last decades.

To all the people disagree, I respect your right to do so, but if we're going to win the only way we can do it is with flooding the convention with our delegates and even then it's a long shot. The focus for winning should be on the delegates...

However, while I hope everyone helps Paul out in any way you can I would ask that everyone realize that the real goal should be to get elected to their local governments and then try to spread the message that way.

Phoning from home is great and all but the best way to get the message out to a LARGE number of people is to get politically active in local and statewide elections, even if you don't win you can make a huge difference (much in the same way Paul is now) by taking the message straight to the people.

The real goal should be continuing to infiltrate the party from within so when the next Liberty leader (Rand or whoever) makes his run the game isn't so stacked against him.

I think with the right amount of legwork anyone can win almost any house seat, remember folks, we're the ones with time on our side and we're the ones who are right.

It might take voters in your area a few elections but as time goes on our message will only resonate deeper because WE ARE RIGHT and one glorious day there may be a true libertarian-republican revolution in this country. But sadly it will not be in 2012...

Some of you have called nearly 500 people in the PFH program, while that's amazing and something that you should all be proud of just ask yourself- how many people could I speak to if I actually ran for something in my local community or state?

Anyone out there with charisma or the natural ability to speak infront of crowds MUST use their gifts to spread the message and continue infiltrating the party- this is how we'll win in the long run- I promise.

I agree somewhat. I, however, do believe Ron Paul is in it to win it. He never has actually talked about being President, and he certainly doesn't fantasize about it.

I suppose I'm just feeling desperate this election. Unlike the last election, I really feel like the US might not survive an Obama/Santorum/Romney/Gingrich presidency. The dollar is on the verge of destruction, which would bring about massive monetary reform, and I highly doubt it'll go in the way we want it to. Or, what if they actually get crazy enough to invade Iran and we get our backsides handed to us by Russia?

The damage could be irreparable by the time 2016 floats around.

[tbone717]

I posted a thread yesterday which gave some tips on how to become someone that can actually deliver votes. True grassroots activism is being involved in your community and having influence as to people's voting decisions. I think we spend far too much time trying to figure out the next cool internet based thing to do and ignore the most basic forms of grassroots work. Let's face it coming up with a cool moneybomb theme, making a YouTube video and spreading it around - that's the stuff we have been doing for years, and it isn't producing the desired results. If you want this movement to grow you need to get to work right in your own backyard.

Here is the thread for anyone who is interested.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?363816-How-Many-Votes-Can-You-Deliver&p=4226076#post4226076

[DRFilms]

Hey, we're fighting a machine that convinced Arizona not to vote for the guy that served his country and would use the military to secure it's borders that they have been begging the federal government to protect/secure. I mean how is that even possible? I say those people have NO room and no excuse to complain about no federal help with the border. Our answer to their calls for more help should be "You idiots didn't vote for the guy that wanted to put military on the border so it's all yours..."
I'm a GA delegate in Gwinnett CO so don't say I'm not doing anything.

[Butchie]

I still love Ron, and yesterday here in MI I got 13 people (that I know of) to vote for him, but now that I did my part I'll be honest, I'm done. After I saw that poll of people on here where nearly half said they would vote for a Romney/Paul ticket I lost all respect for this "movement" and I'm not spending anymore of my money on it.

[A. Havnes]

I still love Ron, and yesterday here in MI I got 13 people (that I know of) to vote for him, but now that I did my part I'll be honest, I'm done. After I saw that poll of people on here where nearly half said they would vote for a Romney/Paul ticket I lost all respect for this "movement" and I'm not spending anymore of my money on it.

I know it's discouraging, but I wouldn't be too affected by that.

[ohgodno]

I thought this was a REVOLUTION.

...Well, you know.

[cajuncocoa]

My two cents: just because one comes here to discuss news, vent frustrations, read, learn from others' opinions, etc. does NOT mean they are not doing anything (else) for the campaign.

Just sayin'.

[vechorik]

........ I, however, do believe Ron Paul is in it to win it. He never has actually talked about being President, and he certainly doesn't fantasize about it................

You missed a lot of RP speeches. I've heard him say numerous times "If I'm president, I'll take less power, not more" when talking about executive orders.
I've heard him say that as president "I'll bring the troops home"
I've heard him say as president, he will delete 5 useless departments
I've heard him say as president, he will balance the budget.

What are you talking about when you say "He never has actually talked about being President" ???

[Romer]

There is one important lifetime lesson for everybody here - do not ever ever underestimate the sheeple.

[Lindsey]

While I understand the sentiment here, There are some of us who simply as a matter of logistics cannot give as much time. While we all support the movement, some of us have different means. It would nice if there was some understanding of the fact that we are all individuals with unique situations and encourage us to give everything we can, rather than scolding us for not doing more. For my part, I will try to avoid discussing anything not about the grassroots movement in the grassroots section of the forum.

[vechorik]

........ I, however, do believe Ron Paul is in it to win it. He never has actually talked about being President, and he certainly doesn't fantasize about it................

You missed a lot of RP speeches. I've heard him say numerous times "If I'm president, I'll take less power, not more" when talking about executive orders.
I've heard him say that as president "I'll bring the troops home"
I've heard him say as president, he will delete 5 useless departments
I've heard him say as president, he will balance the budget.

What are you talking about when you say "He never has actually talked about being President" ???

[Ivash]

There is one important lifetime lesson for everybody here - do not ever ever underestimate the sheeple.

I don't agree with this board's general view of 'sheeple' (I freely admit I am not a supporter of Ron Paul, or any candidate currently in the race, though I did like Tim Pawlenty back in the day. If anyone is wondering, I am on this board to interact with actual Ron Paul supporters. You guys are interesting). I believe many people see a Romney, Santorum, or Obama Presidency as being in their best interest. Not many people want the government to have *no* role in the economy. The approval rating in things such as medicare, etc, is pretty high. Libertarianism is simply alien to their viewpoints, and they believe it wouldn't work. So, they don't vote for Ron Paul.

The idea that he is 'unelectable' doesn't help him either.

[azxd]

You missed a lot of RP speeches. I've heard him say numerous times "If I'm president, I'll take less power, not more" when talking about executive orders.
I've heard him say that as president "I'll bring the troops home"
I've heard him say as president, he will delete 5 useless departments
I've heard him say as president, he will balance the budget.

What are you talking about when you say "He never has actually talked about being President" ???
IMO he's saying that if a RP supporter doesn't remember this well, the general public won't remember it at all ... But that's my opinion, and I can't speak for others.

[GraniteHills]

Libertarianism is simply alien to their viewpoints, and they believe it wouldn't work. So, they don't vote for Ron Paul.

To go further, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say most Americans don't even know what the word means -- or have never heard it. The American political paradigm, to Joe or Jane voter, who happens to be someone who probably studied very little if any American history, world history, economics, and political science, is "Democrat = poor people, Republican = rich people." I think we are dealing with a chronically mal-informed public here, and this breeds the kind of perennial election results that drive people who do know about such topics crazy.

Rothbard was absolutely correct: public education, especially in recent years as it tends away from acquisition of deep knowledge toward rote testing, has done a number on all of us. It is very hard to get people with no sense of history, no attention span, and no awareness of the crisis to sit down and listen.

Toward the OP, all I can say is I try to do my part through classroom teaching. Bright note: they are receptive, and they do sense things are terribly wrong.

[Okie RP fan]

I'll applaud the effort of the OPs post, as the OP raises some legitimate issues.

I've noticed a big change in the attitude on RPF since Iowa. We need to buck up and get back to it A.S.A.P.

[Ronulus]

I don't agree with this board's general view of 'sheeple' (I freely admit I am not a supporter of Ron Paul, or any candidate currently in the race, though I did like Tim Pawlenty back in the day. If anyone is wondering, I am on this board to interact with actual Ron Paul supporters. You guys are interesting). I believe many people see a Romney, Santorum, or Obama Presidency as being in their best interest. Not many people want the government to have *no* role in the economy. The approval rating in things such as medicare, etc, is pretty high. Libertarianism is simply alien to their viewpoints, and they believe it wouldn't work. So, they don't vote for Ron Paul.

The idea that he is 'unelectable' doesn't help him either.

I think that's where they are misunderstanding the message. The government does play a role, but that role should be to make sure the value of our dollar does not diminish, to provide a sound currency and to enforce contracts. So you can't have fraud and things like that.

[Ivash]

To go further, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say most Americans don't even know what the word means -- or have never heard it. The American political paradigm, to Joe or Jane voter, who happens to be someone who probably studied very little if any American history, world history, economics, and political science, is "Democrat = poor people, Republican = rich people." I think we are dealing with a chronically mal-informed public here, and this breeds the kind of perennial election results that drive people who do know about such topics crazy.

Rothbard was absolutely correct: public education, especially in recent years as it tends away from acquisition of deep knowledge toward rote testing, has done a number on all of us. It is very hard to get people with no sense of history, no attention span, and no awareness of the crisis to sit down and listen.

Toward the OP, all I can say is I try to do my part through classroom teaching. Bright note: they are receptive, and they do sense things are terribly wrong.

Taken as a whole, you are probably right that many Americans don't really know what libertarianism is. But voters in the GOP primary? I think most of them do, considering that the elderly that vote tend to be more political than 'the average' American.

[azxd]

I'll applaud the effort of the OPs post, as the OP raises some legitimate issues.

I've noticed a big change in the attitude on RPF since Iowa. We need to buck up and get back to it A.S.A.P.
Would that possible be some supporters attempting to tell people what to do, rather than asking them what they can do ?

[tbone717]

To go further, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say most Americans don't even know what the word means -- or have never heard it. The American political paradigm, to Joe or Jane voter, who happens to be someone who probably studied very little if any American history, world history, economics, and political science, is "Democrat = poor people, Republican = rich people." I think we are dealing with a chronically mal-informed public here, and this breeds the kind of perennial election results that drive people who do know about such topics crazy.

Rothbard was absolutely correct: public education, especially in recent years as it tends away from acquisition of deep knowledge toward rote testing, has done a number on all of us. It is very hard to get people with no sense of history, no attention span, and no awareness of the crisis to sit down and listen.

Toward the OP, all I can say is I try to do my part through classroom teaching. Bright note: they are receptive, and they do sense things are terribly wrong.

Very correct in your points.

I think one of the issues we have is that a lot of people tend to think that we need people to become "converted" in order to succeed. While that is an admirable goal it simply isn't realistic. While it is very important to have the converts active in the libertarian movement of the GOP, we also need to realize that we need to have a lot of Joe & Jane Republicans vote with us, so that we can get our agenda in place. That is done by meeting voters where they are rather than waiting for voters to come to us. In a nutshell, that is the failure of the campaign & grassroots in this election cycle. We have been ineffective at communicating our message as a solution for the concerns of the average voter, instead we have been trying to force our issues on people and expect them to "wake up" and embrace our political philosophy.

The good news is that we do have answers for people's most pressing concerns. We just need to find people that are able to communicate our answers in a manner that is appealing to the average voter. When we do that, we win. We have won before and we will continue to win. So while this nomination process may look very bleak, overall the libertarian wing of the GOP will continue to grow and we will continue to elect good people at the local, state and national level.

[Romer]

Taken as a whole, you are probably right that many Americans don't really know what libertarianism is. But voters in the GOP primary? I think most of them do, considering that the elderly that vote tend to be more political than 'the average' American.

They may have heard for the word, but hardly they know what it means. Anarchy? Layoffs? No social security? No nanny state? No wars and bombing other countries (for them these=terrorists)

Or perhaps just something else.

They must know that it means the most importantly this: less government, less corruption, less bureaucracy, more freedom, more economical liberties, more prosperity, more money in THEIRS pockets in the end. If they got that message they would have voted for Ron Paul.

[HigherVision]

I just hope everyone remembers that this fight doesn't stop with this election.

For me personally, I've stopped donating and participating in the PFH (I got just over 100) because it became clear to me that Ron knows he can't win. Ron never talks about actually being President, he never offers any specific plans to the sheeple, and he isn't aggressive enough when he's actually given time to speak.

He doesn't appear to be in this to win, no matter what anyone wants to tell me. I've been following Paul since 2007, I've been following this campaign since it started, but it's become abundantly clear to me that this fight for Liberty has just started and even if Paul ended his campaign tomorrow nothing would change that. This is only year 5 in what's sure to be a struggle that will potentially last decades.

To all the people disagree, I respect your right to do so, but if we're going to win the only way we can do it is with flooding the convention with our delegates and even then it's a long shot. The focus for winning should be on the delegates...

However, while I hope everyone helps Paul out in any way you can I would ask that everyone realize that the real goal should be to get elected to their local governments and then try to spread the message that way.

Phoning from home is great and all but the best way to get the message out to a LARGE number of people is to get politically active in local and statewide elections, even if you don't win you can make a huge difference (much in the same way Paul is now) by taking the message straight to the people.

The real goal should be continuing to infiltrate the party from within so when the next Liberty leader (Rand or whoever) makes his run the game isn't so stacked against him.

I think with the right amount of legwork anyone can win almost any house seat, remember folks, we're the ones with time on our side and we're the ones who are right.

It might take voters in your area a few elections but as time goes on our message will only resonate deeper because WE ARE RIGHT and one glorious day there may be a true libertarian-republican revolution in this country. But sadly it will not be in 2012...

Some of you have called nearly 500 people in the PFH program, while that's amazing and something that you should all be proud of just ask yourself- how many people could I speak to if I actually ran for something in my local community or state?

Anyone out there with charisma or the natural ability to speak infront of crowds MUST use their gifts to spread the message and continue infiltrating the party- this is how we'll win in the long run- I promise.

I've always gotten that vibe from him too, that he wasn't interested in winning. I don't really blame him, a lot of people talk about what he should or shouldn't be doing but what they don't account for is that these are dangerous people that we're up against. And we're up against them from a distance, whereas Ron is right there in the hot seat. I know people don't like 'conspiracy theories' but regardless, reality exists outside of people's willingness to accept it. I think Ron knows what the implications are if he crosses the line so to speak and so he does the best he can for all of us to get the message of freedom out. And if it keeps growing then eventually they won't be able to suppress it.

[WD-NY]

I suggest everyone in this thread, go and read George Washington's Newburgh Address. Like pronto.

I suggest Ron Paul should go and read washington's Newburgh Address so that he can remember WHAT A FORMAL F**KING SPEECH LOOKS LIKE.

[A_Silent_Majority_Member]

Heres my time to have the dogs sicked on me....

RPF as a tool = turning a phillips head screw with a sanding block

Before you get all tiffed... try to reflect on what i'm saying.

I am saying nothing that hasnt already been declared before MANY times on here yet STILL goes unchecked... and the die hard puff and woot woot in pride on how this place isnt for newcomers.. its for die hards only and newbies should go elsewhere.

This board is simply not being implemented in an effective way. sure maybe for the die hards its tips... but answer me this? will Ron Paul get elected with ONLY the support of the die hards? or do we need the support of the masses as well?

With only DP vs RPF... RPF is winner as far as user friendly layout but made for and by die hards and NOT the common person casually strolling online to check out, reasearch (as we tell/beg them to do), or casually join with fellow supporters.

Already i hear the crickets chirping as a lone tumbleweed rolls by as the eyes are rolling because im stupid and dont know anything. though I tend to take it with a grain of salt and dont live on here 24/7.. sadly however many others do not take things in such stride and have likely already been driven away to candidate X..

errrrrk stop! insert sheldon cooper logic: "But ah that make no sense to do over some forum right????"

sure.. but its how it works out there in this world NOT made of Ron Paul die hards and if your plan is to change that... HAHAHAHAHA good luck telling birds to swim and fish to fly.... bottom line...media says ron paul is nuts and his supporters are rude... people decide to look past it... come here, see all the die hard BS and... OOOOOPS "darn the media was right! dont want to be wrapped up with that rabble..." or "darn asked a question and got rubbed out WTF?!?!..." or "well I was on the fence between candidate x and paul and thought I might support paul but apparently im not welcome in the paul camp so fine guess i will go to candidate x. nicer people there at least"

eeeeeerk STOP! again insert sheldon cooper logic: "ah no you know noting! im so sure the what 20,000 or so people wo come here a day wont make that big a difference! and is their problem for come onto our turf without thick skin!"

ahhh and what about the domino effect of what they tell their friends, family, coworkers ect that dont come here who then pass that along to their freinds, family, and coworkers who then pass along to their friends, family, coworks ect huh????

eeeerrrrk STOP! insert more sheldon cooper logic: "well if these people dont like it then they can go elsewhere!"

ahh dont worry..they have sadly because there is no other forum really to go that makes sense.

errrrk STOP! response: " then why dont YOU make a place!"

ahh if this was 15 years ago when i was flush with cash and didnt have a family of 5 to keep up with I would.. but its not.. even if i did I would have no clue how to promote it since posting something here would undoubtedly result in accuasations of spamming and trolling. Besides... I would prefer to keep this place and just make slight adjustments to accomidate both the die hards (who wish a sharply refined tool and hard core facts, statistics, grassroots activism) AND the newbie or common jane/joe (who wish a friendly place to hang out, speculate, share ideas with fellow Ron Paul supporters and learn as well in addition to a tool for basic info). Everything to do this far as i know can be done by ADMIN with a few simple clicks in the ACP of the board. The die hards will gripe (at first) but things would run more smoothly in the end and the numbers would be more likely to grow (as well as the support.. again.. think domino effect)

next step... take a step back and take a different look at ourselves and say ya know.. if what we have been doin hasnt gotten us the results we seek, then maybe its time we try something different?

fine.... Should I make a simple demo board and post it just as demonstration so everyone can see what im talking about and give it a test drive?

and what does this have to do with grassroots activism? the title of this forum says it all... GRASSROOTS CENTRAL... and where is this located??.. ON THIS BOARD... and what does this board and grassroots activism have in common? without PEOPLE.. niether would be effective. We have grassroots organization and people.. what we dont have is enough people. ergo.. MORE PEOPLE FRIENDLY BOARD>>MORE PEOPLE>>MORE IDEAS>>LARGER GRASSROOTS>>MORE ACTIVISM>>WINNING! savvy?

[gerryb]

As much of a nobody as I am, I still have made over 300 PFH calls and my fam has got at least one hundred signatures for delegates
and for RP in PA.

So I can at least say I helped to get RP on the PA ballot.

Look I actually did something albeit something small.

“I am only one, but I am one. I can't do everything, but I can do something. The something I ought to do, I can do. And by the grace of God, I will.”
]
You think this is a small contribution..

Imagine if everyone who has donated $$, did what you did.

RP would be the undeniable front runner. We have 200,000+ people who have given money... 200,000 x 300 calls = 60,000,000 calls -- that's multiple contacts per voter in the US.

200,000 x 100 = 20,000,000 signatures. Change this to 20M door knocks(since we don't need that many signatures..) -- even with just a 5% conversion ratio, this would win the election.

[Tudo]

Well I hope you're right and am sure glad to be in the business I'm in as it looks like more of the same.

An employee of mine in a communist country told me last night, "it's time for Americans to accept the fact you have a regime that is not going to allow any change in policy. It doesn't matter if Ron Paul received 75% of the "vote", they will not permit change. Just like in other socialist countries although the big difference is they don't go around ripping countries off of there natural resources and murdering there citizens" endquote.

I have offices in Asia and I've been VERY hard on the people over there whenever I'm there saying things like " who can any man permit this tyoe of government to control what you do? This is what you're willing to allow to happen to your families? " ( I've been MUCH harder than that)

Talk is talk although I know we have all seen riots on some countries over this type of election fraud.

[gerryb]

I still love Ron, and yesterday here in MI I got 13 people (that I know of) to vote for him, but now that I did my part I'll be honest, I'm done. After I saw that poll of people on here where nearly half said they would vote for a Romney/Paul ticket I lost all respect for this "movement" and I'm not spending anymore of my money on it.

Good, we should be working with local candidates instead of a national candidate, anyway. "Grassroots" is from the bottom up, not top down.

[tbone717]

]
You think this is a small contribution..

Imagine if everyone who has donated $$, did what you did.

RP would be the undeniable front runner. We have 200,000+ people who have given money... 200,000 x 300 calls = 60,000,000 calls -- that's multiple contacts per voter in the US.

200,000 x 100 = 20,000,000 signatures. Change this to 20M door knocks(since we don't need that many signatures..) -- even with just a 5% conversion ratio, this would win the election.

Which begs the question, why has this not been organized? I am not in MI or AZ so I don't know what occurred there, but shouldn't ever single person on the mailing list that lives in MI & AZ been contacted directly and asked to do some good old-fashioned retail politicking? It's great that we have an enthusiastic base, but if people are not being called upon directly by the campaign and called into action, then all the enthusiasm is worthless.

[gerryb]

It's great that we have an enthusiastic base, but if people are not being called upon directly by the campaign and called into action, then all the enthusiasm is worthless.

It shouldn't require the campaign prodding people into action. We're supposed to be different then that.

[azxd]

Well I hope you're right and am sure glad to be in the business I'm in as it looks like more of the same.

An employee of mine in a communist country told me last night, "it's time for Americans to accept the fact you have a regime that is not going to allow any change in policy. It doesn't matter if Ron Paul received 75% of the "vote", they will not permit change. Just like in other socialist countries although the big difference is they don't go around ripping countries off of there natural resources and murdering there citizens" endquote.

I have offices in Asia and I've been VERY hard on the people over there whenever I'm there saying things like " who can any man permit this tyoe of government to control what you do? This is what you're willing to allow to happen to your families? " ( I've been MUCH harder than that)

Talk is talk although I know we have all seen riots on some countries over this type of election fraud.
I'm of the opinion that if RP received 75% support, he would be killed.

[tbone717]

It shouldn't require the campaign prodding people into action. We're supposed to be different then that.

Agreed, but without organization we are a scattered mass going in fifty different directions, many of them unfocused. If they have the names, then why not use them? I know when we work local elections there are some people we can call on to volunteer for the legwork. Just did it for a DJ race here. A neighbor of mine ran, we contacted some people we knew we could ask to help her out, and spent a couple weekends knocking on every door we possibly could.

Left to their own devices, people might do something silly like create a costly and ineffective brochure and mail them out to potential voters --- oh wait, we did that. Ok well left to their own devices people might think it's a great idea to have a blimp with Paul's name on it and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on it --- oh wait, we did that.

[bbwarfield]

PFH is currently calling RP supporters and getting them out to the caucus in WA. We have the numbers to win but we need turnout.

So instead of complaining about PFH, just get on it and do what you gotta do.

What else can you do? speculate on RPF?

was being sarcastic while drinking a guiness and falling asleep... didnt work... for obvious reason once I woke up this morning.... I like phone from home

[PolicyReader]

I think with the right amount of legwork anyone can win almost any house seat, remember folks, we're the ones with time on our side and we're the ones who are right.


While I agree with the sentiment behind this, and I intend to fight on odds be damned I have to vehemently disagree with the concept that "time is on our side"
time is anything but on our side, if we lose in 2012 we get more of the same and more of the same means things continue to get worse.
Within less than one quarter of the time our next elected president will sit the following things have happened.


Yet another example in the long list of reasons why 2016 is likely too late and why no matter the odds pushing for Ron Paul to be in the White House this election is so important.
ACTA
OPEN
NDAA
Enemy Expatriation Act
Assassination Powers
HR 347
All within less than twelve months multiply these effects by more than four times (another Presidential term) and stack the new damage on top of the current (because it is cumulative) that's the reality of what we're looking at.

So what have you done today to get Ron Paul elected?

Suggestions:
Sign up as a delegate
Donate to the Current Moneybomb (https://secure.ronpaul2012.com/)
Thread (http://phone.ronpaul2012.com/v/faq.php]Phone From Home[/url][/quote]
any[/b] time to spare over multiple election cycles for our efforts to bear fruit? Not in the least.

I've heard frequent debates about whether this election is marathon or a sprint, but one thing is blindingly clear the larger restoration of our nation is both.
Things are much worse when you look at the laws on the books than most citizens of this nation believe they could ever get. Let me repeat that, legally things have already gone further than most people think they can go even in theory, and they are still getting worse.
I hate to put it this way because I despise how much fear mongering goes on in our nation but none of us have the time for a sugar coat when it comes to this.
I expect that many people, even here in GRC of RPF won't be willing or able to acknowledge this idea... I devoutly hope that I am wrong about that because there simply isn't much time left before things go from really bad, to much much worse and we start to see the true consequences of the legal powers the Fed (not the bank) has been accumulating during the past three Presidential terms. Again I devoutly hope I'm wrong, but after witnessing how much the populace of this nation has willingly accepted since Sept 11th I won't bet on the next four years stemming the tide, not with President Paul.

Doesn't matter how right or how charismatic you are if your rights to speak and assemble are removed (and if you don't know that's already happening and is continuing to get worse ask Adam Kokesh what the consequence is for dancing quietly, his story there is just one among so many I can't even begin to list or count them. Paul supporters think he's blacked out, and we're blacked out... that sense is accurate, but it's nothing compared to how blacked out the actions of authoritarian over reach is within this nation, any of you see what happened to the RT reporter? That's the rule these days not the exception).

Let me be totally blunt right now we are losing this fight and we're running out of options to turn it around and I am NOT referring to the 2012 election here. (I expect this post will be dismissed by many, honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it gets me flamed and neg repped, but to the best of my knowledge and understanding not a single word of it is exaggerated or inaccurate, and I hope that here on a liberty minded forum at least some (perhaps all? :) ) of those reading this will take the time to read the actual laws and policies and check how legal precedents have been enforced to really dig and not just assume that things will be alright. This is America because we fight for liberty, not because USA is printed on our official documents.

Liberty, freedom, they are things that require constant protection, they are [u]not guaranteed.
The Founding Fathers knew that (read their quotes) do you?

[Natural Citizen]

I think Ron knows what the implications are if he crosses the line so to speak and so he does the best he can for all of us to get the message of freedom out. And if it keeps growing then eventually they won't be able to suppress it.

Well, that's exactly right. The energy that brings upon freedom for the people is the very energy that they themselves exhibit. So yes, kiddies. Free energy do exist. Do with it what you wish but it's a slow ride. Walk over there and pick up all of the marbles. Stop trying to run over there and grab just one. Please?

You have a great start. Understand it for what it is and stop trying to make it something that it isn't yet ready to be. The statetsman does and he's leaving his lesson that cannot be left unheard to thousands of people on what is a daily basis. Let the youth have their renassaince. They'll migrate to the process. That's the great thing about such an energy. It's constant. Some say consistent even.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebgph_ToT40

[Natural Citizen]

Too many chiefs like to interfere with the injuns rain dance. You can't have thunder without lightening no matter how big yer TP seems to be.