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tbone717
02-27-2012, 07:18 AM
I wanted to address a point that I am concerned about, particularly for newer folks that may have joined this movement sometime over the last five years. There are some here who are ready to burn the entire house down if Paul does not win the nomination. "Screw them all" is the mantra that some hold to. But I think what many do not understand is that it takes time to build coalitions, it takes time for our agenda to become part of the mainstream of thought, and it takes effort on our part to establish the conditions where we can be successful in what we are trying to accomplish. It has taken decades for our country to get in the shape we are in today. It has been 41 years since the Nixon Shock which eliminated the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold, 47 years since Johnson implemented the Great Society programs, 79 years since the implementation of the New Deal Programs, and 99 years since the institution of the Federal Reserve. We cannot expect that all of this monstrosity can be undone overnight. It takes time to change the political climate in this country, and we have been doing a nice job so far at getting there, but it will take a lot of work if we want to see things move forward.

I like sports analogies, and since the Daytona 500 will be run today (if it doesn't rain again) I will use that to illustrate. In order to win Daytona it takes a lot of planning, training, preparation and people. You need a great car, a skilled driver, a well trained pit crew, a knowledgeable crew chief, great teammates and quality equipment. One man doesn't simply hop into a car, floor it for 500 miles and win the race. If someone were to do so, their tires would blow out and they wouldn't finish.

Politics is much the same. If you want to see this country return to its founding principles of limited government and individual liberty, we need many people in place to help do the work for us. But we need to be cautious that we do not label everyone who doesn't agree with every single point we espouse as an enemy. There are many fine individuals that are in office, and that are running for office that can aid and assist us in getting to the place we want to be. This large, intrusive federal government did not happen overnight and we will not be able to undo it overnight either. It just won't happen, and anyone who thinks it can is delusional.

I am speaking primarily here about House and Senate candidates and elected officials. There is a tendency among some to hold everyone up to the standard of Ron Paul and if they fall short on even one point, then they are an enemy, they are evil, they are part of the establishment. But in reality they are not, they are our allies and they will be the people that will help move our agenda forward rather than us being relegated to the political desert like our friends in the Libertarian & Constitution Parties.

For example, the Fed is a major issue for us. It wasn't that many years ago when Paul would introduce a bill to audit the Fed that there would be no co-sponsors to the bill. But now, the issue has moved forward and he was actually able to get over 300 co-sponsors and the bill was brought to the floor for a vote in 2010. The bill failed to pass, but when you look at the roll call vote you will see that every single GOP member of the House voted for it. Yes, that's right - those "war mongering neo-cons" voted for a bill that we support. Why is that? Because while we may disagree with them on a lot of issues, there is also a lot of common ground. Who voted against it? The Democrats, including 117 of them that were co-sponsors but jumped shipped when it came time to vote. A few years ago it would be unthinkable that a Fed audit bill would even get out of committee, and last year it was brought to a vote. That is incrementalism in action.

I bring all this up because as we look at the 435 House races and the 33 Senate races are that in 2012, we need to be prudent in what we do as a movement. There are a lot of great libertarian-leaning candidates running in the primary elections. We should wholeheartedly support them. But what if they lose? What do we do when it comes to the general election? Do we dig our heels in the ground and say "we aren't voting for the lesser of two evils" when one of those candidates simply disagrees with us on a few issues? Do we cut off our nose to spite our face? That would be silly. Because if it wasn't for those "war mongering neo-cons" in the House, Paul's bill would have never seen the light of day. You have to ask yourself when it comes time to make that voting decision - is it better to have candidate A over candidate B? Who is the candidate that is more likely to advance our agenda as we move forward and incrementally change the culture in this country for the better?

The PA Senate race is a good example. There is a fine libertarian-leaning candidate running for the nomination, Marc Scargini. His positions are sound, and would fall right in line with the type of guy we are looking for. However, he has never ran for an elected office before, and he is currently polling in the low single digits. I'll vote for the guy in the primary, but the chances of him winning are nil. The winner will more than likely be Sam Rohrer. Now is Sam a died in the wool liberatarian? No, but he is a heck of an improvement over our current Senator, Bob Casey Jr. If an Audit the Fed bill moves to the Senate floor who is more likely to support it, Rohrer or Casey. The answer is simple. So while I would love to see Scargini win the Senate seat, is voting for Rohrer in the general election voting for the "lesser of two evils"? Not at all. While he many not support 100% of the issues that we do, he will likely be with us on 80%, where Casey has proven to vote with our side less than 20% of the time. Casey is our enemy, Rohrer will be our ally.

So whether the issue is regulation, tax reform, foreign policy or states rights - we need to be able to keep moving our agenda forward. And the way in which we do so is by creating allies in Congress. Finding people we can work with so that in the years down the road, we will find ourselves celebrating the fact that we no longer give trillions in foreign aid to other countries, that we no longer have bases all around the world, that we no longer have a massive tax system that cripples our country, that we no longer are under the burden of federal regulation. To get to this point it will take time, we will need to change the hearts and minds of the people of this country, and we can be successful at doing so. But we will fail if we take this all or nothing approach. That's what the LP and CP have done, and we all know they have had absolutely no effect on the national dialogue. If we want to move forward with this movement, we need to realize that this is not a sprint, but a long 500 mile race that requires many people and many elements working in our favor.

otherone
02-27-2012, 08:36 AM
is it better to have candidate A over candidate B? Who is the candidate that is more likely to advance our agenda as we move forward and incrementally change the culture in this country for the better?



If your candidate isn't on the ballot, it's better to write him in, or to vote for ANY third party candidate, or petition your state house to allow third party candidates on the ballot. "Incrementalism" is the problem not the solution. You only "throw your vote away" by supporting someone you don't agree with. The guy you just 'settled' for doesn't KNOW you settled. He thinks you actually agree with him.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 08:58 AM
If your candidate isn't on the ballot, it's better to write him in, or to vote for ANY third party candidate, or petition your state house to allow third party candidates on the ballot. "Incrementalism" is the problem not the solution. You only "throw your vote away" by supporting someone you don't agree with. The guy you just 'settled' for doesn't KNOW you settled. He thinks you actually agree with him.

If it wasn't for incrementalism, then how did we go from zero co-sponsors for the Fed Audit to an actual vote on the floor? We incrementally increased the level of support for the legislation by working with people who were sympathetic to the cause. Many of the people that did not sponsor the bill four years ago, were ones that voted for it last session. Again, while we may not agree with those people on all the issues, they were of great assistance to us on this particular issue.

I agree that we should not vote for someone that we do not agree with, but what is the threshold? Does someone have to agree with you on 100% of the issues, or is 80% sufficient? Absolutism will get us nowhere. One only needs to look at the election history of the Libertarian Party to see what absolutism gains you.

So since you are from PA I will ask you. Is it better to have Rohrer in the Senate who will likely vote our way 80% or more of the time or to have Casey in office who will vote with us less than 20% of the time?

otherone
02-27-2012, 09:12 AM
Is it better to have Rohrer in the Senate who will likely vote our way 80% or more of the time or to have Casey in office who will vote with us less than 20% of the time?

These types of questions are pointless. It's not up to ME who WINS. Choosing the 'lessor of two evils' keeps the current system in power. I am SO tired of voting 'against' someone. That is NOT representative government. Why do we only throw our votes away when we vote third party? Why are our votes suddenly 'precious' when we vote for the Republocrats?

tbone717
02-27-2012, 09:17 AM
These types of questions are pointless. It's not up to ME who WINS. Choosing the 'lessor of two evils' keeps the current system in power. I am SO tired of voting 'against' someone. That is NOT representative government. Why do we only throw our votes away when we vote third party? Why are our votes suddenly 'precious' when we vote for the Republocrats?

So someone who is for lowering spending, reducing regulation, overturning Obamacare, upholding the 2nd amendment, and pro-life is now "evil"?

otherone
02-27-2012, 09:20 AM
So someone who is for lowering spending, reducing regulation, overturning Obamacare, upholding the 2nd amendment, and pro-life is now "evil"?

It's an expression. I'm sure you've heard it before

..and by the way, you've just described Rick Santorum. There's "Incrementalism" for ya'.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 09:21 AM
It's an expression. I'm sure you've heard it before.

Have you bothered to look at his voting record at the state level?

When Rand needs votes in the Senate to pass a bill who is more likely to work with him? You see the absolutism does not help this movement progress, it actually retards its growth. If you actually expect things to change overnight then quite frankly you are delusional. It is not going to happen that way. We do not have the level of support to implement massive structural changes to our government. So in order to the point where we can make real changes, we need to work our way towards that.

Digging your heels in the ground and casting aside everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is not a movement, it's a cult. And that mentality will not help the cause of liberty, but instead will work against it.

otherone
02-27-2012, 09:46 AM
When Rand needs votes in the Senate to pass a bill who is more likely to work with him? You see the absolutism does not help this movement progress, it actually retards its growth. If you actually expect things to change overnight then quite frankly you are delusional.
Digging your heels in the ground and casting aside everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is not a movement, it's a cult.

You are the ideologue here, not me. I cannot control who works with Rand. I don't expect to change things overnight. I have one vote, one message, and I'm not squandering it on someone other than my preferred candidate. I understand you believe "politics is a team sport". It's that attitude that has made Washington the swamp that it is.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 09:53 AM
You are the ideologue here, not me. I cannot control who works with Rand. I don't expect to change things overnight. I have one vote, one message, and I'm not squandering it on someone other than my preferred candidate. I understand you believe "politics is a team sport". It's that attitude that has made Washington the swamp that it is.

Actually you can control who works with Rand, by sending people to the Senate that share the same general views as he does.

And I will ask you what is your threshold? Does someone have to agree with you 100% or is 90% enough, or 80%. What is your line in the sand that determines whether or not you will vote for a candidate?

I hope we can count on folks like you in the future to donate, volunteer and work to get our guys elected. Are you involved at the local level? That is the key to making changes. We need people who are willing to donate money and time so that we can get libertarian-conservatives into office. I would suggest attending a local GOP meeting and see what you can do there to get involved.

Anti Federalist
02-27-2012, 11:18 AM
A "Republican Leadership Council" avatar?

Selling the "join the team and come on in for the big win" nonsense?

No thanks.

This mess is not going to solved at the ballot box anyways, and I've always thought that.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:22 AM
A "Republican Leadership Council" avatar?

Selling the "join the team and come on in for the big win" nonsense?

No thanks.

This mess is not going to solved at the ballot box anyways, and I've always thought that.

It's the Republican Liberty Caucus. They have endorsed Paul for President, as well as a nice bunch of folks running for Congress. Paul is a member and a former national chair

Anti Federalist
02-27-2012, 11:23 AM
It's the Republican Liberty Caucus. They have endorsed Paul for President, as well as a nice bunch of folks running for Congress. Paul is a member and a former national chair

Ah.

My mistake.

Travlyr
02-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I just can not get myself to back the Republican Party Platform. This one from 2008 is disgusting.

http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/2008platform.pdf

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:25 AM
Ah.

My mistake.

It's a good organization. It's been around since the early 90's and there are a lot of good people involved. Amash & Rand are endorsed by them as well.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:27 AM
I just can not get myself to back the Republican Party Platform. This one from 2008 is disgusting.

http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/2008platform.pdf

Well that is the hope we have at the convention. The better we do in the upcoming contests, and the more delegates we amass, the more we can insert our agenda into the platform. It would be nice if Paul won every contest by 80%, then we could have everything we want, but obviously that isn't happening. So we win some battles along the way.

Anti Federalist
02-27-2012, 11:33 AM
It's a good organization. It's been around since the early 90's and there are a lot of good people involved. Amash & Rand are endorsed by them as well.

It is, I jumped the gun on you by assuming it was this:

http://www.republican-leadership.com/

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:34 AM
It is, I jumped the gun on you by assuming it was this:

http://www.republican-leadership.com/

It's rlc.org I believe

Travlyr
02-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Well that is the hope we have at the convention. The better we do in the upcoming contests, and the more delegates we amass, the more we can insert our agenda into the platform. It would be nice if Paul won every contest by 80%, then we could have everything we want, but obviously that isn't happening. So we win some battles along the way.
I would agree with you if they were welcoming Ron Paul and his ideas. But the GOP is not doing that. They are fighting him at every turn. They lie, cancel caucus, they did not let him debate (89 seconds), they worked against us in Iowa to make sure we did not gain momentum. If they are smart enough to nominate Ron Paul and his long lines of dedicated supporters, then we can bring our platform of sound money, a foreign policy of freedom, and peace to the GOP. It doesn't look like they are going to do that. If not, there is no way I will support them ever again.

georgiaboy
02-27-2012, 11:39 AM
So someone who is for lowering spending, reducing regulation, overturning Obamacare, upholding the 2nd amendment, and pro-life is now "evil"?

You can't call it that way, though.

You have to look at whether someone is going to continue to increase the size of gov't, or will begin decreasing the size of gov't.


Everything you stated can still allow for the increase of gov't year after year, and your brand of incrementalism will continue to allow it to happen.

Don't let yourself be fooled. Voting for candidates who will still increase the size of gov't, no matter how much less than the other guy, is not voting for incrementally decreasing the size of gov't.


Those who will actually decrease the size of gov't, no matter how small, must be the ones to get our votes, and none other, if we are ever to get the change we are seeking. This is not radical, it's incremental.

Ron Paul's plan for decreasing the size of government is, in fact, incremental.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:41 AM
I would agree with you if they were welcoming Ron Paul and his ideas. But the GOP is not doing that. They are fighting him at every turn. They lie, cancel caucus, they did not let him debate (89 seconds), they worked against us in Iowa to make sure we did not gain momentum. If they are smart enough to nominate Ron Paul and his long lines of dedicated supporters, then we can bring our platform of sound money, a foreign policy of freedom, and peace to the GOP. It doesn't look like they are going to do that. If not, there is no way I will support them ever again.

Well it is a battle between the leadership and the troops so to speak. We need more troops so that we can become leadership. If we keep moving forward we might see Rand and majority leader and Amash as speaker in a few years. But it takes time to get there.

The only thing I will say about "no way I will support them ever again" is that by doing so you are walking away from all the other good people we have in there. We need more Rand Pauls and less Harry Reids. So in order to get there, we have to keep working. We can't let one failure (if it does indeed come to that) be a set back. We did better than 08, and will do better in 14, and even better in 16 if we stay focused and don't let our emotions get the best of us.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:43 AM
You can't call it that way, though.

You have to look at whether someone is going to continue to increase the size of gov't, or will begin decreasing the size of gov't.


Everything you stated can still allow for the increase of gov't year after year, and your brand of incrementalism will continue to allow it to happen.

Don't let yourself be fooled. Voting for candidates who will still increase the size of gov't, no matter how much less than the other guy, is not voting for incrementally decreasing the size of gov't.


Those who will actually decrease the size of gov't, no matter how small, must be the ones to get our votes, and none other, if we are ever to get the change we are seeking. This is not radical, it's incremental.

Ron Paul's plan for decreasing the size of government is, in fact, incremental.

And in the case of Rohrer we have a record in state government to look at. It's decent, so I don't have a problem with voting for him in the general. He has voted for cuts before at the state level, so his record backs up his rhetoric. Sure I would love to see Scargini get it, but that just isn't going to happen. He is probably better off taking a shot at a House seat first before trying to win a state contest. PA is way too big of a state for a rookie to win.

georgiaboy
02-27-2012, 11:43 AM
Well it is a battle between the leadership and the troops so to speak. We need more troops so that we can become leadership. If we keep moving forward we might see Rand and majority leader and Amash as speaker in a few years. But it takes time to get there.

The only thing I will say about "no way I will support them ever again" is that by doing so you are walking away from all the other good people we have in there. We need more Rand Pauls and less Harry Reids. So in order to get there, we have to keep working. We can't let one failure (if it does indeed come to that) be a set back. We did better than 08, and will do better in 14, and even better in 16 if we stay focused and don't let our emotions get the best of us.

I agree with this.

Travlyr
02-27-2012, 11:48 AM
The Federal Reserve System has to end before anything changes. The Federal Reserve System is putting families on the streets. It is nothing more than a counterfeiting ring of thieves. The GOP is not saying that, yet. They need to be saying that. HR 1098 must be promised to pass for the GOP to have any credibility.

tbone717
02-27-2012, 11:57 AM
The Federal Reserve System has to end before anything changes. The Federal Reserve System is putting families on the streets. It is nothing more than a counterfeiting ring of thieves. The GOP is not saying that, yet. They need to be saying that. HR 1098 must be promised to pass for the GOP to have any credibility.

Agreed. I think the first step is to get HR 459 passed.