Who owns the money?

[johngr]

The dollar bill or penny I get in change is not mine. If it were, I would be able to do any thing I wanted with it, including burn it, use it for toilet paper (soon to be an economical use of dollar bills), mark it any way I want or melt it down, so long as I don't do anything fraudulent with it. If I can't, I don't own it. So who (as in what flesh and blood human being(s)) owns the money? Someone must. Do the shareholder in the Federal Reserve own it?

And what about 12 U.S.C. § 411? The notes used to have language like "redeemable in lawful money". Though they took that language off of them, they never amended the code. What does that imply? There are not US notes anymore. Maybe coins are lawful money. Some of them are worth more than their nominal value. Does anyone know about that?

[travismofo]

A simplistic answer is that no one really owns it. It is evidence of debt, not money.

[johngr]

A simplistic answer is that no one really owns it. It is evidence of debt, not money.

I'm talking about the rectangular pieces of paper and and round pieces of metal. And it certainly is possible to own debt. Taking an accounting 101 class.

[foofighter20x]

The Fed owns the bills, or the "evidence of debt."

The government owns the debt.

And all of us get to pay it. Yay! :rolleyes:

[travismofo]

I'm talking about the rectangular pieces of paper and and round pieces of metal. And it certainly is possible to own debt. Taking an accounting 101 class.

That's why I said it was the simplistic answer ;)

[johngr]

The Fed owns the bills, or the "evidence of debt."

The government owns the debt.

And all of us get to pay it. Yay! :rolleyes:

The "fed" and the gov't are abstractions. Also the gov't is the debtor (a debtor doesn't own debt). Who owns the money? Do they violate the 13th Amendment with the current system.

[nayjevin]

Maybe coins are lawful money.

Currently the penny represents a value determined by being 1/100th of the paper dollar -- a fixed rate -- as opposed to being valued based on being 2.5 grams of metal.

Is this distinction relevant?

[johngr]

Currently the penny represents a value determined by being 1/100th of the paper dollar -- a fixed rate -- as opposed to being valued based on being 2.5 grams of metal.

Is this distinction relevant?

I imagine it's relevant, even important otherwise they would have changed the code. Here's the relevant text of 12 usc 411: "[Federal reserve notes] shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank."

[johngr]

Currently the penny represents a value determined by being 1/100th of the paper dollar -- a fixed rate -- as opposed to being valued based on being 2.5 grams of metal.

Is this distinction relevant?

I imagine it's relevant, even important otherwise they would have changed the code. Here's the relevant text of 12 usc 411: .[Federal reserve notes] shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank. Are there any US Notes left (I know they stopped printing them in 1971)?

[Green Mountain Boy]

johngr, some of the answers to your questions can be found here:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=145389

and

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=187833

[johngr]

johngr, some of the answers to your questions can be found here:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=145389

and

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=187833

This is a moot issue for me as I live in Sweden. But one were to bring his FRNs to a Fed Bank for redemption or write in the endorsement area of paychecks something like, "redeemed pursuant to 12 USC 411", what do they have to give out other than more FRNs? They haven't printed US Notes since 1971.

[Green Mountain Boy]

This is a moot issue for me as I live in Sweden. But if bring my FRNs to a Fed Bank for redemption or write in the endorsement area of paychecks, "redeemed pursuant to 12 USC 411", what do they have to give out other than more FRNs? They haven't printed US Notes since 1971.

The physical Federal Reserve Notes can also function as US Notes. You are not getting a different piece of paper that says "US Note" on it. It all depends on your endorsement/non-endorsement of the Fed's private credit.

[fsk]

I believe that coins (pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters) are considered "lawful money" for the purposes of that clause.

If you look at a quarter, it does not say "This coin is legal tender" on it.

If you trade your Federal Reserve Notes for pennies or nickels, you're making a profit! The metal is worth more than the face amount of the coin.