Abolish Licensing in Healthcare (and every other field for that matter)

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[Zippyjuan]

I would like to know that my medical professional is qualified and trained to perform his job. As for "cutting out the middle man" I would be concerned that doctors making money off prescriptions themselves would encourage them to write even more prescriptions- needed or not. Competition among pharmacies is good though.

[tttppp]

If a license was an accurate measure of someone's ABILITY and nothing else, I'd be ok with a license. But unfortunately pretty much all of them I know of have bullshit requirements in order to get one. Particularly education. Requiring someone to spend half their life in school does not add any value to anyone.

[tttppp]

I would like to know that my medical professional is qualified and trained to perform his job. As for "cutting out the middle man" I would be concerned that doctors making money off prescriptions themselves would encourage them to write even more prescriptions- needed or not. Competition among pharmacies is good though.

Are these medical professionals qualified? I have yet to find a qualified medical doctor, and all the doctors I've seen had their licenses.

[Zippyjuan]

What do you consider "qualified" which your doctors lack?

[furface]

This is a topic that I consider very important. Licensing is a form of government sponsored monopoly. If there were no medical licenses, there would be no inflation in medical services.

Qualification would be based on a trusted authority system. Government doesn't have to be the only authority. Government is too easily corrupted. There can be other competing authority systems.


What do you consider "qualified" which your doctors lack?

Too much specialization these days. Doctors know their own narrow field and nothing about other aspects of medicine. I've had doctors tell me things concerning their field but slightly out of their specialization that are absolutely wrong. And I might add that the misinformation could have significantly endangered my health if I took them at their word.

[Zippyjuan]

If there were no medical licenses, there would be no inflation in medical services.


I thought you were arguing against "simplistic sollutions" in a different thread. Not requiring any licensing does not necessarily mean that no cost inflation will occur.


Look guys, I have a problem with all or nothing thinking. It seems to permeate on these boards. You know, you can cure all cancer with hemp oil. You can fix everything by just taxing land or by just eliminating all taxes. Everything can be traced to the Illuminati & the Rothschilds.

It's never that simple. Things are much more complex. Cancer can only be cured by a long list of yet undiscovered drugs & therapies and economics is a complex science that seems not to work with overly simplistic ideas.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?370468-The-broad-method-of-taxation-is-not-the-problem/page2
Substitute license for tax in this case. I do agree with the other post. It is never that simple.

[phill4paul]

No licensing. Not by government. Independent agencies can create a system without government interference to rate and qualify individuals in their fields.
I have many years in the plumbing field. I do not have a master's license. I could plumb a house from the ground up (I have in my own). I can't because I don't have licensing. I have spent a number of years in carpentry. Many working for a particular carpenter that could do anything related. He however couldn't hardly read. Therefore his brother got the license and he was relegated to the actual building even though he had forgotten more about building than his brother ever knew.
With licensing comes permits. With permits loss of individual ownership of property.
It is a scam by organizations that make money from the system they have created.

[furface]

I thought you were arguing against "simplistic sollutions" in a different thread. Not requiring any licensing does not necessarily mean that no cost inflation will occur.

My solution isn't simple. It requires people to set up medical trust companies.

However, here's a somewhat simplistic analysis. You generally have runaway inflation when you have unregulated monopolies. Medicine is one field where that exists. Government itself is another. Medicine is regulated, but not on prices.

[CaptainAmerica]

I would like to know that my medical professional is qualified and trained to perform his job. As for "cutting out the middle man" I would be concerned that doctors making money off prescriptions themselves would encourage them to write even more prescriptions- needed or not. Competition among pharmacies is good though.

Yes because the AMA and the government for that matter approve that? lol

[tttppp]

What do you consider "qualified" which your doctors lack?

For one, the ability to cure something, which not doctor has. I've also been to plenty of doctors who were too lazy to even try to diagnose my problems. There are also plenty of doctors too stupid to figure anything out. For example, when I went to doctors, I had to do all the research myself, diagnose the problem myself, then recommend a medication to the doctor. Additionally, I had to keep my problem simple. If I stated multiple symptoms to my doctor, he'd get confused and wouldn't be able to do anything for me. I don't consider someone with a complete lack of intelligence to be qualified.

[furface]

For one, the ability to cure something, which not doctor has. I've also been to plenty of doctors who were too lazy to even try to diagnose my problems. There are also plenty of doctors too stupid to figure anything out. For example, when I went to doctors, I had to do all the research myself, diagnose the problem myself, then recommend a medication to the doctor. Additionally, I had to keep my problem simple. If I stated multiple symptoms to my doctor, he'd get confused and wouldn't be able to do anything for me. I don't consider someone with a complete lack of intelligence to be qualified.

One of the other benefits of not having monopolies is that fields tend to progress more rapidly without them. An average guy with an internet connection could probably practice diagnostic medicine better than most MDs. The field of diagnostic medicine has not kept up with technology.

[tttppp]

One of the other benefits of not having monopolies is that fields tend to progress more rapidly without them. An average guy with an internet connection could probably practice diagnostic medicine better than most MDs. The field of diagnostic medicine has not kept up with technology.

I speak from experience. I know I can diagnose problems better than most MDs.

[Zippyjuan]

For one, the ability to cure something, which not doctor has. I've also been to plenty of doctors who were too lazy to even try to diagnose my problems. There are also plenty of doctors too stupid to figure anything out. For example, when I went to doctors, I had to do all the research myself, diagnose the problem myself, then recommend a medication to the doctor. Additionally, I had to keep my problem simple. If I stated multiple symptoms to my doctor, he'd get confused and wouldn't be able to do anything for me. I don't consider someone with a complete lack of intelligence to be qualified.

Sorry you have not found a doctor which is capable of curing anything and they are all lazy and stupid. Let's get rid of any requirements they know anything and that will improve their quality? Or encourage even more less qualified people to enter the field?

[Sam I am]

If you don't have some sort of certification system, How would you know whether or not the particular doctor you're looking into is competant?

[tttppp]

Sorry you have not found a doctor which is capable of curing anything and they are all lazy and stupid. Let's get rid of any requirements they know anything and that will improve their quality? Or encourage even more less qualified people to enter the field?

I'm ok with licenses that improve the quality of the doctors, but I'm not ok with licenses that exist solely for the purpose of creating barriers to entry. My point I made earlier is that whatever they are doing now isn't working. They either need to fix the system, or scrap it completely.

One thing that may work better is for all doctors to be registered on a system and patients be allowed to rate them. If patients could easily look up a doctors rating from patients, that could dramatically improve competition and create better service and prices. Maybe they have something like that already, but I'm not aware of anything thats mainstream yet.

[The Free Hornet]

Even back in 1975 the AMA was limiting the supply of Doctors. Decades later, hundreds of libtards on the Huffington Post will talk about "free market failure" and the need for universal care:


Profession and Monopoly, a book published in 1975, is critical of the AMA for limiting the supply of physicians and inflating the cost of medical care in the United States. The book claims that physician supply is kept low by the AMA to ensure high pay for practicing physicians. It states that in the United States the number, curriculum, and size of medical schools are restricted by state licensing boards controlled by representatives of state medical societies associated with the AMA. The book is also critical of the ethical rules adopted by the AMA which restrict advertisement and other types of competition between professionals. It points out that advertising and bargaining can result in expulsion from the AMA and legal revocation of licenses. Restrictions against advertising that is not false or deceptive were dropped from the AMA Code of Medical Ethics in 1980 (AMA Ethical Policy E-5.02). The book also states that before 1912 the AMA included uniform fees for specific medical procedures in its official code of ethics. The AMA's influence on hospital regulation was also criticized in the book.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association#Criticisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association#Criticisms)

I'll say this, I am all for and 100% down with bankrupting every mother-fucking doctor and every mother-fucking insurance company. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas. Fuck 'em. I would support 1000% (one thousand) so-called universal care single-payer health care before mandating a single dollar of my money to a private company. Yes, I think universal health care would suck especially if you need extraordinary care (accident, cancer). Of course, one reason lots of people support universal health care is because they don't need extraordinary care. They want mediocre care at the lowest cost and are perfectly happy clipping off the ends of the health care market (infants and elderly) and any edge cases needing extreme amounts.

I'll add that these same people would be much better off never buying insurance and always self-financing or paying cash. Much like public schooling, the government option is intended to drive up costs and benefit unions/guilds/civil servants while delivering a crap product to the public. How many towering office buildings have our insurance requirements built? I couldn't count them. I do know the government managed care has led to the loss of hospitals and ER rooms across the nation. Health insurance is worthless if there is no doctor to sew your face back on.

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[Zippyjuan]

I'm ok with licenses that improve the quality of the doctors, but I'm not ok with licenses that exist solely for the purpose of creating barriers to entry. My point I made earlier is that whatever they are doing now isn't working. They either need to fix the system, or scrap it completely.

One thing that may work better is for all doctors to be registered on a system and patients be allowed to rate them. If patients could easily look up a doctors rating from patients, that could dramatically improve competition and create better service and prices. Maybe they have something like that already, but I'm not aware of anything thats mainstream yet.

A good idea- and yes, there are such things. http://www.healthgrades.com/ for example. Or http://www.vitals.com/ Just a couple of the first ones popping up on Google. Like most review sites, the more likely to share info are those who encountered problems than those satisfied.

[dannno]

I would like to know that my medical professional is qualified and trained to perform his job.


What do you consider "qualified"...?


Why not look at a list of the best medical schools in the country and find graduates from those institutions and setup an interview with the doctor to find out if they will be able to meet your needs and determine whether you think they are qualified to meet them?

[donnay]

Ok does everyone here think licenses to practice (doctor, nurse, pharmacist, physical therapist, osteopath, etc) should all be abolished.

This would solve problems.

Someone could go to a doctor one time, get diagnosed. Then start seeing a Pharmacist. The pharmacist can give the patient medicine. Pharmacists specialize in drugs and affects on the body. So the patient never has to see the Doctor. Especially in cases where the a pharmacist is more convenient to go to because of traveling.

Lets say you have a BS in Biology, Pharm D degree and a PHD in Biochemistry and are very accomplished and you want to naturally treat people? well because you dont have a naturopathic doctor's license, you can't legally treat patients.

Lets say your a doctor and want to give people medication directly and cut out the pharmacy, too bad you can't because of licensing

Government licensing just gives one group a monopoly and secures it. Getting rid of licensing would reduce prices and increase competition.

True News: The Death of Health Care Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt0tKl0J-S4

True News: Health Care Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD2UUH4E2Xs&feature=relmfu


Great post! +rep

License mean you have to get permission to do something. There is no way of really knowing that a doctor you go to is truly legit. Just because government tells us they are qualified and they have all these diplomas on the wall still doesn't tell me anything about the doctor.

[tttppp]

A good idea- and yes, there are such things. http://www.healthgrades.com/ for example. Or http://www.vitals.com/ Just a couple of the first ones popping up on Google. Like most review sites, the more likely to share info are those who encountered problems than those satisfied.

I've heard of healthgrades.com. I don't think its mainstream yet. When you go to a hospital or clinic, it should be standard practice for each patient to fill it out.

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[Zippyjuan]

Great post! +rep

License mean you have to get permission to do something. There is no way of really knowing that a doctor you go to is truly legit. Just because government tells us they are qualified and they have all these diplomas on the wall still doesn't tell me anything about the doctor.

If you remove any licensing, you know even less about your doctor. With a license you know they have at least some level of education and training in the field. I am not saying it is a perfect system but it is a process of weeding out a large amount of unqualified people. Yes, it does not guarantee that all or good (no system will) but no certification increases the lesser or even not qualified pool pretending to be doctors.

[dannno]

If you remove any licensing, you reduce further the knowledge you have about pracitioners.

Compared to what??

I believe there would be much MORE information about practitioners out there if they took away licensing because consumers would demand it.

[rpwi]

The conventional libertarian label for this is 'occupational licensing' and yeah...it's evil.

It's sheer nonsense, that I can't get medical services from a doctor unapproved by the government.

Med school needs to be front and center on the debate for affordable health-care. The restrictions are absurd (eg why do you HAVE to have a bachelors to get into med school...4 years wasted...)

Plus in many cases specialist have to learn areas not applicable to their profession (like a psychiatrist having to do surgery in residency). Thx to med school, the supply of doctors and the time doctors spend practicing medicine is greatly reduced which raises cost.

The quality of these government approved physicians is absolutely awful...from talking with my friends and family...I have yet to hear a positive story about a competent physician.

The other problem with our health care system is the lawsuits...not the cost of mal-practice per say (couple of percent of health care cost which is still evil) but it is the cost of unnecessary procedures that doctors do because they are terrified about getting sued.

[donnay]

If you remove any licensing, you know even less about your doctor. With a license you know they have at least some level of education and training in the field. I am not saying it is a perfect system but it is a process of weeding out a large amount of unqualified people. Yes, it does not guarantee that all or good (no system will) but no certification increases the lesser or even not qualified pool pretending to be doctors.

If we had a truly free market, there would still be colleges (a lot more competition) for people to post all their accomplishments and accolades. As it stands now, because they get the nod from the AMA, I am just supposed to think they are qualified?

I have told this story before, but it bears repeating here... Three years ago I was having pains in my chest, labored breathing (caused by anxiety) and it concerned me, I thought I was having a heart attack. I went to the ER, had to fill out all the paper work before anyone would ever look at me. I stayed in the examining room for over a hour before a doctor came to see me. I had all kinds of tests done, and they couldn't find anything. The doctor prescribed for me prescription Naproxin, he said I had inflammation somewhere. To me that was not reassuring, but I had the prescription filled and went home and took them as prescribed.

A day later, my symptoms were worse which caused me more anxiety. I, again, went back to the ER. Again they took more test--again, nothing. Or at least that is what the doctor told me. He also seemed pretty annoyed that I was back and told me there was nothing he could do and that I had some kind of inflammation and I have to wait until it subsides. :rolleyes:

By the third day I was at wits' end. A friend of mine who was concerned about me, suggested that I find a Naturopath. So, I did. To make a long story short, he spent an hour listening to me, and was able to assess that I had a hiatal hernia. He told me he could fix it in his office. He showed me a simple procedure and I did it, and instantaneously the pressure on my chest subsided.

My point in bringing this up is, Naturopaths are not recognized by the AMA nor do insurance companies pay for their services. It cost me $230.00 for him to help me, give me supplements, and with a follow up. Which within time, I felt better with each day.

The hospital bills for the ER cost $6,001.00 and my insurance deductible is $6,000.00 a year.

I have made it a point to study and research nothing but alternative methods since then. If I have any questions and want a profession opinion, I can write and email or simply call my Naturopath and he will answer it or research it and get back with me. Not many MD's are willing to do that. Naturopath physicians believe that the body can heal itself, given the proper nutrition. It made a believer out of me.

[tttppp]

If we had a truly free market, there would still be colleges (a lot more competition) for people to post all their accomplishments and accolades. As it stands now, because they get the nod from the AMA, I am just supposed to think they are qualified?

I have told this story before, but it bears repeating here... Three years ago I was having pains in my chest, labored breathing (caused by anxiety) and it concerned me, I thought I was having a heart attack. I went to the ER, had to fill out all the paper work before anyone would ever look at me. I stayed in the examining room for over a hour before a doctor came to see me. I had all kinds of tests done, and they couldn't find anything. The doctor prescribed for me prescription Naproxin, he said I had inflammation somewhere. To me that was not reassuring, but I had the prescription filled and went home and took them as prescribed.

A day later, my symptoms were worse which caused me more anxiety. I, again, went back to the ER. Again they took more test--again, nothing. Or at least that is what the doctor told me. He also seemed pretty annoyed that I was back and told me there was nothing he could do and that I had some kind of inflammation and I have to wait until it subsides. :rolleyes:

By the third day I was at wits' end. A friend of mine who was concerned about me, suggested that I find a Naturopath. So, I did. To make a long story short, he spent an hour listening to me, and was able to assess that I had a hiatal hernia. He told me he could fix it in his office. He showed me a simple procedure and I did it, and instantaneously the pressure on my chest subsided.

My point in bringing this up is, Naturopaths are not recognized by the AMA nor do insurance companies pay for their services. It cost me $230.00 for him to help me, give me supplements, and with a follow up. Which within time, I felt better with each day.

The hospital bills for the ER cost $6,001.00 and my insurance deductible is $6,000.00 a year.

I have made it a point to study and research nothing but alternative methods since then. If I have any questions and want a profession opinion, I can write and email or simply call my Naturopath and he will answer it or research it and get back with me. Not many MD's are willing to do that. Naturopath physicians believe that the body can heal itself, given the proper nutrition. It made a believer out of me.

Your experience with the ER is similar to mine. I once had to go to the ER 3 times in the same week for the same condition. The first time they misdiagnosed me and gave me medication. My symptoms got worse, so I went back. The second time they gave a more accurate diagnosis, but did not properly explain the causes of the medication. The third time I felt like I was going to die because of one of the medications they gave me. And one of the nurses there was giving me shit for coming back, even though it was their fault I was feeling like shit.

Overall they spent about 20 minutes diagnosing me and charged me about $5,000 and I had no insurance. Most of the time I did spend at the hospital was their fault. When I got the bill I told the hospital I had no job or money and to go fuck themselves.

When I went to an acupuncturist 2 years later, I mentioned the problem to him and he gave me herbs to clean out the infection. The problem was completely gone after that.

[Acala]

If you remove any licensing, you know even less about your doctor. With a license you know they have at least some level of education and training in the field. I am not saying it is a perfect system but it is a process of weeding out a large amount of unqualified people. Yes, it does not guarantee that all or good (no system will) but no certification increases the lesser or even not qualified pool pretending to be doctors.

This is simply false. The free market is perfectly capable of evaluating products and services and consumers are capable of making educated choices about the products and services they consume. It happens all the time right now. Get government out of the way and the market will step in and do it better. Want an example? In California, where medical mj is legal, no government licensing existed for testing the claimed quality of the medical mj. Within a few months the market produced testing labs that analyze samples of mj.

[WilliamC]

Sorry you have not found a doctor which is capable of curing anything and they are all lazy and stupid. Let's get rid of any requirements they know anything and that will improve their quality? Or encourage even more less qualified people to enter the field?

Come on Zippy, that's being overly simplistic.

So long as there are laws against fraud and a court system exists to sort out disagreements then surely a free people can decide with whom they wish to contract their health care needs without having the government tell them who to trust?

Let the free market work in medicine and it will not be perfect, but it will at least get better and cheaper all time.

Medicine today has nothing to do with promoting health, it's all about retroactively treating disease. While this works some of the time, its not a rational approach.

In a free market there would be a huge incentive for people to use doctors to focus on keeping themselves healthy, not treating them when they are sick.