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VoluntaryAmerican
02-20-2012, 02:04 AM
Not sure if you all are aware of this movement, it's called, "It gets Better Project".

http://www.itgetsbetter.org/

As we all know Public Schools are atrocious prison like systems--no wonder so many children commit suicide and have depression.

The focus of this movement is misguided in that its not diagnosing the problem: public schools are failing our children.

Instead its trying to prevent suicides in bullied and gay/lesbian teenagers by telling them to endure their pain and deal with their enviroment by simply telling them that life after government school gets better.

There is a lot of room here to get our message out and perhaps change a lot of minds.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 02:12 AM
....conservatives are complaining there's too much public schooling, there's too much secularism and too little prayer.
But now I'm hearing that the government and lack of discipline, lack of punishment for anti-gay behavior, peer pressure, driving teens to suicide is also the government's fault?

High school already know life is better after high school. Because college is party, sex, drinking, and learning to "loan today, pay it later, beg for bailout if you can't".

FrankRep
02-20-2012, 02:18 AM
I bet you $10 bucks that the "It Gets Better" project promotes stronger hate laws and anti-bullying laws.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 02:20 AM
I bet you $10 bucks that the "It Gets Better" project promotes stronger hate laws and anti-bullying laws.

I'm on your side. Which is why it makes no sense to me to think that we should try to hijack or change their message in any way.

NewRightLibertarian
02-20-2012, 02:27 AM
Anyone who is concerned about gay bullying as a primary issue of theirs is unbelievably, outrageously stupid.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 02:30 AM
Anyone who is concerned about gay bullying as a primary issue of theirs is unbelievably, outrageously stupid.

when somebody in your family kills himself, that's all you'll be thinking about for a long time.

VoluntaryAmerican
02-20-2012, 02:33 AM
I bet you $10 bucks that the "It Gets Better" project promotes stronger hate laws and anti-bullying laws.

Completely agree - this whole project will probably result in more depressed/opressed students.


I'm on your side. Which is why it makes no sense to me to think that we should try to hijack or change their message in any way.

I'm not suggesting we hijack their movement, just that our opinion is expressed.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 02:46 AM
Completely agree - this whole project will probably result in more depressed/opressed students.

I'm not suggesting we hijack their movement, just that our opinion is expressed.

No, I'm not sure it'll result in more depressed and oppressed students, unless you're simply saying the gay victims will continue to be while bullies are oppressed. If the underlying "problem" of either bullying, violence, anti-gay bigotry isn't addressed, it'll likely persist. However, being depressed and oppressed sure beats killing yourself. I don't think anybody favors suicide or wants to see more of it, so if a bandage solution to reduce suicides is effective, it's better than nothing, public schools have their own problems, and suicide shouldn't be part of it (any more than child molestation, date rape, shootings should be)

VoluntaryAmerican
02-20-2012, 03:14 AM
No, I'm not sure it'll result in more depressed and oppressed students, unless you're simply saying the gay victims will continue to be while bullies are oppressed. If the underlying "problem" of either bullying, violence, anti-gay bigotry isn't addressed, it'll likely persist. However, being depressed and oppressed sure beats killing yourself. I don't think anybody favors suicide or wants to see more of it, so if a bandage solution to reduce suicides is effective, it's better than nothing, public schools have their own problems, and suicide shouldn't be part of it (any more than child molestation, date rape, shootings should be)

The "bandage solution" will most likely have some results, but that does not compare to the results we would get if public school was not forced on all tax payers and their were more private alternatives.

Keeping the status quo (public school) will result in more kids being harmed in general over time, gay/lesbian/straight etc. etc.

NewRightLibertarian
02-20-2012, 03:16 AM
when somebody in your family kills himself, that's all you'll be thinking about for a long time.

How many suicides have there been from gay bullying?

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 03:26 AM
The "bandage solution" will most likely have some results, but that does not compare to the results we would get if public school was not forced on all tax payers and their were more private alternatives.

Keeping the status quo (public school) will result in more kids being harmed in general over time, gay/lesbian/straight etc. etc.

how many private alternatives is enough? Do you understand that people go to public school because they choose not to spend their own money on private school or are unable to home school?

There are two kinds of gay bully victims, one which their parents can't do anything because they can't afford to take them somewhere else, or convince schools to do something. And the other ,where their parents are with the bullies, that is, they either don't care their child is bullied, or love their child less for being gay. Neither of these people are denied the option to home school or private school their children. So their problems are not going to change if you had more private schools, your problem with tax payers forced to pay for public schools isn't going to stop either.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 03:37 AM
How many suicides have there been from gay bullying?

I don't know. And I don't think gays should be singled out as a protected group against bullying.

here's a quick response to gay teen suicide statistics, fun read
http://www.livescience.com/8734-gay-teen-suicide-epidemic.html

Again, if somebody in your family kills himself, you won't care if he's a rare endangered species or whether it's due to him being gay.

VoluntaryAmerican
02-20-2012, 04:01 AM
how many private alternatives is enough? Do you understand that people go to public school because they choose not to spend their own money on private school or are unable to home school?

There are two kinds of gay bully victims, one which their parents can't do anything because they can't afford to take them somewhere else, or convince schools to do something. And the other ,where their parents are with the bullies, that is, they either don't care their child is bullied, or love their child less for being gay. Neither of these people are denied the option to home school or private school their children. So their problems are not going to change if you had more private schools, your problem with tax payers forced to pay for public schools isn't going to stop either.

To answer your first question. The more private alternatives the better. This would allow for schools with different intended goals. For example one school would better prepare your child for college, one would claim to ensure good counseling, another would claim be the safest, another would promote creativity.

To answer your second question. I think you are implying public school is "free"? The property tax is the main way which government school is funded. So yes, obviously most people do not wish to pay twice for a service. This means that there is less of a need for private schools under our current system. However if you stopped mandatory taxation for public schools, the result would be more private schools, better service, overall happier kids.

Your third statement suggests that Government schooling isn't the problem. But under a private school it would be much easier to "convince a school to do something" because their reputation and income is on the line if a student kills himself.

And no, parents aren't denied the option to homeschool/private school, they are just motivated not to by the allmighty buck.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 04:45 AM
To answer your first question. The more private alternatives the better. This would allow for schools with different intended goals. For example one school would better prepare your child for college, one would claim to ensure good counseling, another would claim be the safest, another would promote creativity.


No, not the more the better, only as much as the market demands.



To answer your second question. I think you are implying public school is "free"? The property tax is the main way which government school is funded. So yes, obviously most people do not wish to pay twice for a service. This means that there is less of a need for private schools under our current system. However if you stopped mandatory taxation for public schools, the result would be more private schools, better service, overall happier kids.


You can choose not to pay for public schools, by not owning property. But you are correct, those who already are taxed for public schools, prefer not to pay twice. They're hardly denied the option.




Your third statement suggests that Government schooling isn't the problem. But under a private school it would be much easier to "convince a school to do something" because their reputation and income is on the line if a student kills himself.


I definitely was saying that government and government schooling shouldn't be your scapegoat for everything. You are correct that income and reputation is on the line if a student kills himself, but not only did they not see it coming (or else they'd pay anything to prevent it), but also, the threat is not much less for a public school. Public schools who HAVE had teen suicides are either forced or pressured to go through sensitivity training or are threatened with lawsuits by ACLU and the like. So the problem isn't that public schools don't have incentive to prevent suicide, it's sometimes that not even the parent see it coming. Any parent who threatens anybody, public or private "if you don't do something and my kid is dead, it'll be blood on your hands" will almost always force the threatened party to pretend that they care.

So I hope I've made it clearer to you, I am not defending public schools and I am not blaming them. While public schools don't lose income with suicides, administrators prefer not to waste money on senisitivity training ,or face media harassment if they could avoid it.



And no, parents aren't denied the option to homeschool/private school, they are just motivated not to by the allmighty buck.

And whose fault is that? By the way, homeschool is the cheapest option, because you don't even need to transport your children. So money isn't the only thing, some are simply lazy or incompetent. So if you think you're going to be convincing these people to rely less on government schooling, good luck.

The point is this, people who believe public schools failed them demand more from them, not give up on demanding. Telling people whose kid kill himself because the public school didn't help prevent it that "you should've never relied on them" is like telling a parent whose kid was killed in Iraq "your child was duped into thinking he was fighting for freedom, he actually died for corporations, oil, world police". You might be right on the facts but you're not getting through to the people by salting their wounds.

angelatc
02-20-2012, 06:32 AM
Not sure if you all are aware of this movement, it's called, "It gets Better Project".

http://www.itgetsbetter.org/

As we all know Public Schools are atrocious prison like systems--no wonder so many children commit suicide and have depression.

The focus of this movement is misguided in that its not diagnosing the problem: public schools are failing our children.

Instead its trying to prevent suicides in bullied and gay/lesbian teenagers by telling them to endure their pain and deal with their enviroment by simply telling them that life after government school gets better.

There is a lot of room here to get our message out and perhaps change a lot of minds.

Blah blah blah. How much government money went into this crap?

PaulConventionWV
02-20-2012, 07:12 AM
when somebody in your family kills himself, that's all you'll be thinking about for a long time.

Except I know that's not going to happen because we are not gay/lesbian, so we cannot have a gay/lesbian issue suicide. Besides, I bet most of those people in that project haven't had that happen to a family member. I'm not saying all, I'm saying most. They are just hardcore liberals.

PaulConventionWV
02-20-2012, 07:17 AM
how many private alternatives is enough? Do you understand that people go to public school because they choose not to spend their own money on private school or are unable to home school?

There are two kinds of gay bully victims, one which their parents can't do anything because they can't afford to take them somewhere else, or convince schools to do something. And the other ,where their parents are with the bullies, that is, they either don't care their child is bullied, or love their child less for being gay. Neither of these people are denied the option to home school or private school their children. So their problems are not going to change if you had more private schools, your problem with tax payers forced to pay for public schools isn't going to stop either.

How can you say their problems aren't going to change if they had more private schools? You can't fit all the parents of gays/lesbians into those two boxes like you just mentioned. That's ignorant.

Liberty74
02-20-2012, 07:17 AM
How many suicides have there been from gay bullying?

Maybe not due to bullying but gay suicide rate is extremely high. No doubt due to society in general.

PaulConventionWV
02-20-2012, 07:19 AM
No, not the more the better, only as much as the market demands.

If the market had its way, all schools would be private. In fact, public schools are inherently NOT in a free market, so the market demand is "the more the better" because they should ALL be private.

PaulConventionWV
02-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Maybe not due to bullying but gay suicide rate is extremely high. No doubt due to society in general.

It's not society's fault. Only individuals can be responsible for their own actions. "Society" can't be responsible. That is just liberalspeak.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 11:11 PM
Blah blah blah. How much government money went into this crap?

as a percentage of how much is wasted in public schools overall? Not much

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 11:14 PM
If the market had its way, all schools would be private. In fact, public schools are inherently NOT in a free market, so the market demand is "the more the better" because they should ALL be private.

Wrong. There isn't demand, or they'd be popping up every year, it's pretty saturated as it is, the only thing that keeps many private insitutions going and growing in the recent years is student loans, which will bubble soon.

You may THINK they SHOULD be private, but the rest of the market disagrees with you, or they'd drop out of public school and either move to where they can find good schools, or pay to build one of their choice, they simply aren't do it.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 11:19 PM
How can you say their problems aren't going to change if they had more private schools? You can't fit all the parents of gays/lesbians into those two boxes like you just mentioned. That's ignorant.

Because nothing is stopping bullied victims from going to a private school, aside from the fact their parents are unable or unwilling, people who kill themselves due to bullying generally aren't spoiled at home with happy family and lots of options. That's why they're in public school to begin with.

You are free to tell me what other boxes I should consider.
There are 2 major boxes that I mentioned, parents who love them no matter what, and parents who don't.
Or you can separate them into, parents who know and want to help, and parents who don't know, or don't want to help, or don't care, or can't help even if they wanted to. In every case, there's nothing illegal about a parent taking their kid out of their school or doing something about it themselves.

onlyrp
02-20-2012, 11:23 PM
Except I know that's not going to happen because we are not gay/lesbian, so we cannot have a gay/lesbian issue suicide. Besides, I bet most of those people in that project haven't had that happen to a family member. I'm not saying all, I'm saying most. They are just hardcore liberals.

I hope nobody in your family is bullied to the point of killing himself for any other reason, or if it does happen, you don't blame yourself for it. Gay kids are not the only ones bullied. My point was, that if anybody in your family killed himself as a result of being bullied, not cared for, you better not blame yourself, or else you'd never ask what they were bullied for, because they are your family (again, if you're perfectly happy losing a gay family member because you hate their sinful lifestyle, good for you)

Danke
02-21-2012, 01:03 AM
You can choose not to pay for public schools, by not owning property.

How does one do this, become a street person, homeless?

Anti Federalist
02-21-2012, 01:07 AM
How does one do this, become a street person, homeless?

Was asking that question myself.

No other way that I can see.

If you have a roof over your head of some kind, odds are 999 to 1, you're paying government rent.

onlyrp
02-21-2012, 01:22 AM
How does one do this, become a street person, homeless?

that's one way, or move to a place where there isn't a public school district.

Danke
02-21-2012, 01:31 AM
that's one way, or move to a place where there isn't a public school district.

Cool. List them all.

PaulConventionWV
02-22-2012, 07:09 AM
Wrong. There isn't demand, or they'd be popping up every year, it's pretty saturated as it is, the only thing that keeps many private insitutions going and growing in the recent years is student loans, which will bubble soon.

You may THINK they SHOULD be private, but the rest of the market disagrees with you, or they'd drop out of public school and either move to where they can find good schools, or pay to build one of their choice, they simply aren't do it.

No, the government has a monopoly on the school system. If the government would stay out of it like they should, then all schools would automatically be private. There can't be a market demand for government-run education because that is a top-down approach that doesn't align itself with the market. The market only exists outside of government control, so the "demand" for public schools is non-existent. Maybe this market is saturated, but that is only because the government controls the education system and limits people's choices.

PaulConventionWV
02-22-2012, 07:12 AM
Because nothing is stopping bullied victims from going to a private school, aside from the fact their parents are unable or unwilling, people who kill themselves due to bullying generally aren't spoiled at home with happy family and lots of options. That's why they're in public school to begin with.

You are free to tell me what other boxes I should consider.
There are 2 major boxes that I mentioned, parents who love them no matter what, and parents who don't.
Or you can separate them into, parents who know and want to help, and parents who don't know, or don't want to help, or don't care, or can't help even if they wanted to. In every case, there's nothing illegal about a parent taking their kid out of their school or doing something about it themselves.

No, you can't seem to fathom any other class of people than either those who can't or won't because they don't care. How about people who think they can just stick it out? Ever thought of that? People who are bullied but also don't want to leave their friends? I'm sure there are other classes than the supposedly all-encompassing categories you offered.

PaulConventionWV
02-22-2012, 07:14 AM
I hope nobody in your family is bullied to the point of killing himself for any other reason, or if it does happen, you don't blame yourself for it. Gay kids are not the only ones bullied. My point was, that if anybody in your family killed himself as a result of being bullied, not cared for, you better not blame yourself, or else you'd never ask what they were bullied for, because they are your family (again, if you're perfectly happy losing a gay family member because you hate their sinful lifestyle, good for you)

I'm not sure why that last line was necessary.