How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did

[eduardo89]

How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/)


Every time you go shopping, you share intimate details about your consumption patterns with retailers. And many of those retailers are studying those details to figure out what you like, what you need, and which coupons are most likely to make you happy. Target, for example, has figured out how to data-mine its way into your womb, to figure out whether you have a baby on the way long before you need to start buying diapers.

Charles Duhigg outlines in the New York Times how Target tries to hook parents-to-be at that crucial moment before they turn into rampant — and loyal — buyers of all things pastel, plastic, and miniature. He talked to Target statistician Andrew Pole — before Target freaked out and cut off all communications — about the clues to a customer’s impending bundle of joy. Target assigns every customer a Guest ID number, tied to their credit card, name, or email address that becomes a bucket that stores a history of everything they’ve bought and any demographic information Target has collected from them or bought from other sources. Using that, Pole looked at historical buying data for all the ladies who had signed up for Target baby registries in the past. From the NYT:


Continue reading (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/)

[Icymudpuppy]

What's the big deal? In the days of general stores, it wasn't uncommon for the shopkeeper to know who was expecting based on their purchase orders before the family of the woman knew. The difference is that the shopkeeper was personally involved in ordering those items and stocking the shelves and seeing the buyer in person instead of it all being tracked anonymously by computer.

[eduardo89]

What's the big deal? In the days of general stores, it wasn't uncommon for the shopkeeper to know who was expecting based on their purchase orders before the family of the woman knew. The difference is that the shopkeeper was personally involved in ordering those items and stocking the shelves and seeing the buyer in person instead of it all being tracked anonymously by computer.

It's more about the amount of information on each customer that's collected and analyzed. I mean, if target can do this much with just a little bit of information, imagine how much .gov knows about your every move?

[Anti Federalist]

Jesus Christ...and when the nexus of government and corporations becomes complete, fuck me, you won't be able to fart, without the system knowing about it.

I officially don't give a flying fuck about Target's "rights" here, this shit should be outlawed.

And the last line of this story made my jaw drop.

FFS, we're in a nine line bind.


How Target Figured Out A Teen Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Father Did

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/?partner=forbespicks&google_editors_picks=true

Every time you go shopping, you share intimate details about your consumption patterns with retailers. And many of those retailers are studying those details to figure out what you like, what you need, and which coupons are most likely to make you happy. Target, for example, has figured out how to data-mine its way into your womb, to figure out whether you have a baby on the way long before you need to start buying diapers.

Charles Duhigg outlines in the New York Times how Target tries to hook parents-to-be at that crucial moment before they turn into rampant — and loyal — buyers of all things pastel, plastic, and miniature. He talked to Target statistician Andrew Pole — before Target freaked out and cut off all communications — about the clues to a customer’s impending bundle of joy. Target assigns every customer a Guest ID number, tied to their credit card, name, or email address that becomes a bucket that stores a history of everything they’ve bought and any demographic information Target has collected from them or bought from other sources. Using that, Pole looked at historical buying data for all the ladies who had signed up for Target baby registries in the past. From the NYT:


***[Pole] ran test after test, analyzing the data, and before long some useful patterns emerged. Lotions, for example. Lots of people buy lotion, but one of Pole’s colleagues noticed that women on the baby registry were buying larger quantities of unscented lotion around the beginning of their second trimester. Another analyst noted that sometime in the first 20 weeks, pregnant women loaded up on supplements like calcium, magnesium and zinc. Many shoppers purchase soap and cotton balls, but when someone suddenly starts buying lots of scent-free soap and extra-big bags of cotton balls, in addition to hand sanitizers and washcloths, it signals they could be getting close to their delivery date.


Or have a rather nasty infection…


***As Pole’s computers crawled through the data, he was able to identify about 25 products that, when analyzed together, allowed him to assign each shopper a “pregnancy prediction” score. More important, he could also estimate her due date to within a small window, so Target could send coupons timed to very specific stages of her pregnancy.

One Target employee I spoke to provided a hypothetical example. Take a fictional Target shopper named Jenny Ward, who is 23, lives in Atlanta and in March bought cocoa-butter lotion, a purse large enough to double as a diaper bag, zinc and magnesium supplements and a bright blue rug. There’s, say, an 87 percent chance that she’s pregnant and that her delivery date is sometime in late August.


And perhaps that it’s a boy based on the color of that rug?

So Target started sending coupons for baby items to customers according to their pregnancy scores. Duhigg shares an anecdote — so good that it sounds made up — that conveys how eerily accurate the targeting is. An angry man went into a Target outside of Minneapolis, demanding to talk to a manager:


***“My daughter got this in the mail!” he said. “She’s still in high school, and you’re sending her coupons for baby clothes and cribs? Are you trying to encourage her to get pregnant?”

The manager didn’t have any idea what the man was talking about. He looked at the mailer. Sure enough, it was addressed to the man’s daughter and contained advertisements for maternity clothing, nursery furniture and pictures of smiling infants. The manager apologized and then called a few days later to apologize again.

On the phone, though, the father was somewhat abashed. “I had a talk with my daughter,” he said. “It turns out there’s been some activities in my house I haven’t been completely aware of. She’s due in August. I owe you an apology.”


What Target discovered fairly quickly is that it creeped people out that the company knew about their pregnancies in advance.


***“If we send someone a catalog and say, ‘Congratulations on your first child!’ and they’ve never told us they’re pregnant, that’s going to make some people uncomfortable,” Pole told me. “We are very conservative about compliance with all privacy laws. But even if you’re following the law, you can do things where people get queasy.”


Bold is mine. That’s a quote for our times.

So Target got sneakier about sending the coupons. The company can create personalized booklets; instead of sending people with high pregnancy scores books o’ coupons solely for diapers, rattles, strollers, and the “Go the F*** to Bed” book, they more subtly spread them about:


***“Then we started mixing in all these ads for things we knew pregnant women would never buy, so the baby ads looked random. We’d put an ad for a lawn mower next to diapers. We’d put a coupon for wineglasses next to infant clothes. That way, it looked like all the products were chosen by chance.

“And we found out that as long as a pregnant woman thinks she hasn’t been spied on, she’ll use the coupons. She just assumes that everyone else on her block got the same mailer for diapers and cribs. As long as we don’t spook her, it works.”


So the Target philosophy towards expecting parents is similar to the first date philosophy? Even if you’ve fully stalked the person on Facebook and Google beforehand, pretend like you know less than you do so as not to creep the person out.

Duhigg suggests that Target’s gangbusters revenue growth — $44 billion in 2002, when Pole was hired, to $67 billion in 2010 — is attributable to Pole’s helping the retail giant corner the baby-on-board market, citing company president Gregg Steinhafel boasting to investors about the company’s “heightened focus on items and categories that appeal to specific guest segments such as mom and baby.”

Target was none too happy about Duhigg’s plans to write this story. They refused to let him go to Target headquarters. When he flew out anyway, he discovered he was on a list of prohibited visitors.

I think most readers of the excellent piece will find it both unsettling and unsurprising. With all the talk these days about the data grab most companies are engaged in, Target’s collection and analysis seem as expected as its customers’ babies. But with their analysis moving into areas as sensitive as pregnancy, and so accurately, who knows how else they might start profiling Target shoppers? The store’s bulls-eye logo may now send a little shiver of fear down the closely-watched spines of some, though I can promise you that Target is not the only store doing this.

Those people chilled by stores’ tracking and profiling them may want to consider going the way of the common criminal — and paying for far more of their purchases in cash.

[ZanZibar]

when the nexus of government and corporations becomes complete, fuck me, you won't be able to fart, without the system knowing about it.
Too late:















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqCfVVkT2KI

[CaptainAmerica]

always pay cash,never give your zip code, and never give a drivers license to a cashier. Reject any form of "rewards" cards, and reject signing up for credit cards at any clothing or food store. Data mining =cashier asking for zip code after you make a purchase..it helps a store keep track of where their shoppers come from. Credit cards are not just for the purpose of getting interest on customers that dont pay bills but to spy on what they buy and encouraging them to never use cash.

[Anti Federalist]

From the NYT story:

Also linked to your Guest ID is demographic information like your age, whether you are married and have kids, which part of town you live in, how long it takes you to drive to the store, your estimated salary, whether you’ve moved recently, what credit cards you carry in your wallet and what Web sites you visit. Target can buy data about your ethnicity, job history, the magazines you read, if you’ve ever declared bankruptcy or got divorced, the year you bought (or lost) your house, where you went to college, what kinds of topics you talk about online, whether you prefer certain brands of coffee, paper towels, cereal or applesauce, your political leanings, reading habits, charitable giving and the number of cars you own.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[Anti Federalist]

always pay cash,never give your zip code, and never give a drivers license to a cashier. Reject any form of "rewards" cards, and reject signing up for credit cards at any clothing or food store. Data mining =cashier asking for zip code after you make a purchase..it helps a store keep track of where their shoppers come from. Credit cards are not just for the purpose of getting interest on customers that dont pay bills but to spy on what they buy and encouraging them to never use cash.

Reported.

[jkr]

common criminal?

you mean a bankster?

[specsaregood]

i'd be lying if i didn't say i was moderately impressed.

[fisharmor]

always pay cash,never give your zip code, and never give a drivers license to a cashier. Reject any form of "rewards" cards, and reject signing up for credit cards at any clothing or food store. Data mining =cashier asking for zip code after you make a purchase..it helps a store keep track of where their shoppers come from. Credit cards are not just for the purpose of getting interest on customers that dont pay bills but to spy on what they buy and encouraging them to never use cash.

Ha, I never thought of this before now, but from now on I'm actually from Canada, and my postal code is X0C 0A0
:D

[speciallyblend]

so when is colorado target gonna send me some coupons for some marijuana brownies!

[oyarde]

Doubt they get much useful info on me . This year , my total purchases , everywhere are probably , oil , gas , tulips , some hamburger , steaks and pork ribs ( one , lump purchase ) , bird seed (twice ), plywood , nuts & bolts , beer , cigarettes , some old coins , one charcoal starter fluid , garden seeds. One can of Manwich , one bottle of bbq sauce.Some dish soap , bar soap & laundry soap.That ought to be it . Thanks , that reminds me , my Brother in Law owes $37 on the plywood , nuts & bolts.

[oyarde]

What's the big deal? In the days of general stores, it wasn't uncommon for the shopkeeper to know who was expecting based on their purchase orders before the family of the woman knew. The difference is that the shopkeeper was personally involved in ordering those items and stocking the shelves and seeing the buyer in person instead of it all being tracked anonymously by computer. I miss my old hardware store and the old guy , stop, take in whatever pocketful of rusted , stipped fasteners I needed to replace , buy a rifle , pick up my hunting & fishing license , some ammo and any real strange specialty tool for something I was about to attempt and had not done before , they throw in a cup of coffee and free , knowledgable advice on whatever I was going to work on and had no idea , really what I was doing :)

[Cowlesy]

They're just trying to optimize your buying of cheap crap you probably don't really need.

[specsaregood]

They're just trying to optimize your buying of cheap crap you probably don't really need.
on the contrary, we get good, useful coupons for our weekly staples items.

[eduardo89]

Ha, I never thought of this before now, but from now on I'm actually from Canada, and my postal code is X0C 0A0
:D

Santa Claus's post code is: H0H 0H0

[ZanZibar]

Target assigns every customer a Guest ID number, tied to their credit card, name, or email address that becomes a bucket that stores a history of everything they’ve bought and any demographic information Target has collected from them or bought from other sources. It's my understanding that tying data like this to your credit card number actually violates federal law?


The other interesting thing is that the GOP buys all of this data to put into voter vault to help determine what kind of voter you are, or if you even vote at all. If you buy alcohol, or kids items, or music, etc.

[ZanZibar]

It's my understanding that tying data like this to your credit card number actually violates federal law?


The other interesting thing is that the GOP buys all of this data to put into voter vault to help determine what kind of voter you are, or if you even vote at all. If you buy alcohol, or kids items, or music, etc.

[Anti Federalist]

It's my understanding that tying data like this to your credit card number actually violates federal law?


The other interesting thing is that the GOP buys all of this data to put into voter vault to help determine what kind of voter you are, or if you even vote at all. If you buy alcohol, or kids items, or music, etc.

I think you may be right.

I'm looking into it now.

If it's not, it fucking well ought to be.

[specsaregood]

I think you may be right.
I'm looking into it now.
If it's not, it fucking well ought to be.

They wouldn't actually use the credit card #, but more like a one way hash of a cc number that would be used as a unique identifier.

[tfurrh]

I know how.....

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/kristin-wig-target-lady.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

They wouldn't actually use the credit card #, but more like a one way hash of a cc number that would be used as a unique identifier.

Ah, so, to skirt the law, they scramble the CC and come up with another, just as unique, number and apply it to you.

[specsaregood]

Ah, so, to skirt the law, they scramble the CC and come up with another, just as unique, number and apply it to you.
That's how I'd do it.

[angelatc]

i'd be lying if i didn't say i was moderately impressed.

Yep. Sure, it gives me the creeps, but on the other hand, knowing your market better than they know themselves used to be considered a sign of excellent service.

[angelatc]

They're just trying to optimize your buying of cheap crap you probably don't really need.


on the contrary, we get good, useful coupons for our weekly staples items.

You're both right.

[Anti Federalist]

Yep. Sure, it gives me the creeps, but on the other hand, knowing your market better than they know themselves used to be considered a sign of excellent service.

I don't want "service" that good.

[VBRonPaulFan]

Ah, so, to skirt the law, they scramble the CC and come up with another, just as unique, number and apply it to you.

it's probably less to skirt the law, and more to cover their asses. you don't want to store/transmit sensitive data like that as much as possible as it leaves you vulnerable to security risks. a place like target doesn't want to be involved in a news story with a headline like 'local target database hacked, thousands of credit card #'s compromised!'

[CaptainAmerica]

If you think COUPONS in the newspaper are not tracked, think again...coupons also have locational bar codes.Most employers will hold their employees to a strict policy of collecting every coupon used and putting it with the deposit at the end of the night. Coupons do get audited.

[VBRonPaulFan]

pretty impressive statistical analysis on target's part.

can't blame target for using data you allow them to collect on yourselves though. if you want to avoid this shit, use cash. this is just one of another of the countless reasons why a cashless society is a bad freakin' idea.

[VBRonPaulFan]

If you think COUPONS in the newspaper are not tracked, think again...coupons also have locational bar codes.

it really depends. most 1D barcodes can only hold 8-12 characters worth of data. if a coupon has a 2d barcode on it though, it could potentially have a ton of data specific to you embedded in it.

[angelatc]

I don't want "service" that good.

Eh - I sell out. The coupons and discounts make it worth my while to use the card at the grocery store. I'm just a whore.

The hubby always asks for a new card application when he's at the store. Some stores now make you fill them out while you wait, but others give you a blank card and an application to take home.

[specsaregood]

it really depends. most 1D barcodes can only hold 8-12 characters worth of data. if a coupon has a 2d barcode on it though, it could potentially have a ton of data specific to you embedded in it.

hxxp://i.imgur.com/R7fmD.jpg

[Zippyjuan]

If you think COUPONS in the newspaper are not tracked, think again...coupons also have locational bar codes.Most employers will hold their employees to a strict policy of collecting every coupon used and putting it with the deposit at the end of the night. Coupons do get audited.

Unless they changed it, companies have to send in the physical coupons to the manufactures who issued them to get the money the coupon was redeemed for. If they don't collect the coupons, they have to eat the money on the offers.

If a company tracks what the customers are buying more accurately they can control their inventory better (keeping costs lower) and better match the goods they carry with what their customers are more likely to buy. The customer benefits because they are more likely to find what they need.

At my local grocery they just started a program where they have offers on their website and you pick the ones you want, attach them to your club card and you don't have to clip any coupons. They have some offers available to everybody and some tailored to specific customers based on what they buy. I have gotten extra discounts on things I usually buy and even a few free items. They may also offer me a great deal on something I don't usually buy to try to entice me but I have the power- I get to decide which offers I want to accept or not. I like to save money so try to take advantage of offers. I don't buy something I wouldn't normally simply because they gave me an offer though.

Sure they are tracking what I buy- but the intent is to increase their business- naturally, and if they meet my needs and offer me a good deal, I will probably give them more business.

[ryanmkeisling]

This has been done for several decades now. DARPA, a DOD child, spearheaded this type of data collection/correlation. I don't like it any more than any one else, but it isn't something new. This was one of the reasons they started to put bar codes on everything, this was also the birth of the debit card; to move away from actual currency.

You buy a cart full of products, with a credit/debit card and suddenly many things about you and your life are no longer private. I can remember telling my college roomates circa 98-99 in Boston this was coming and being laughed at. In fact the DARPA website, which is much changed now, used to sport schematic diagrams of how these systems would work as well as what their purpose would be. The internet itself was the begining of this. This has been happening for a long time right out in the open, much like the bipartisan shift in the two party paradigm and the growth of the war/police state.

Welcome to the machine.

(I also agree with Cowsley, Target may be cheap, but so is everything in it. I try to stay away, when you simpllfy your life you'd be surprised how useless much of that shit they sell is.)

[ZanZibar]

They're just trying to optimize your buying of cheap crap you probably don't really need.

Yep. Sure, it gives me the creeps, but on the other hand, knowing your market better than they know themselves used to be considered a sign of excellent service.Exactly. Believe it or not I WANT advertisements that are highly targeted (no pun intended) and RELEVENT. When Facebook puts up an ad about a band I like coming to town I am excited and often times I get excited, click on the ad, and often times attend the show. Why? Because I want to know about things that I like.

What I can't stand is when I get credit card offers, or new car offers, or a feminine hygine products put in my face because I have zero chance of acting on any of them. It wastes my time and their money. Microtargeting = good.

[ZanZibar]

Ah, so, to skirt the law, they scramble the CC and come up with another, just as unique, number and apply it to you.Well, really, it shouldn't be a federal law to begin with (unconstitutional)

[gerryb]

Doubt they get much useful info on me . This year , my total purchases , everywhere are probably , oil , gas , tulips , some hamburger , steaks and pork ribs ( one , lump purchase ) , bird seed (twice ), plywood , nuts & bolts , beer , cigarettes , some old coins , one charcoal starter fluid , garden seeds. One can of Manwich , one bottle of bbq sauce.That ought to be it . Thanks , that reminds me , my Brother in Law owes $37 on the plywood , nuts & bolts.

Based on this data -- they know an awful lot about you....

You look a lot like this;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Unabomber-sketch.png

[Anti Federalist]

+rep

Trouble is, it will soon be illegal to try and get out of the machine, and since too many people just don't care and want their cheap shit, it will suck in all of us as well.

The corporate collective is the mirror image of the state collective.


This has been done for several decades now. DARPA, a DOD child, spearheaded this type of data collection/correlation. I don't like it any more than any one else, but it isn't something new. This was one of the reasons they started to put bar codes on everything, this was also the birth of the debit card.

You buy a cart full of products, with a credit/debit card and suddenly many things about you and your life are no longer private. I can remember telling my college roomates circa 98-99 in Boston this was coming and being laughed at. In fact the DARPA website, which is much changed now, used to sport schematic diagrams of how these systems would work as well as what their purpose would be. The internet itself was the begining of this. This has been happening for a long time right out in the open, much like the bipartisan shift in the two party paradigm and the growth of the war/police state.

Welcome to the machine.

(I also agree with Cowsley, Target may be cheap, but so is everything in it. I try to stay away, when you simpllfy your life you'd be surprised how useless much of that shit they sell is.)

[2young2vote]

I'm not really against this. Target isn't going to use this data to send the Target police to your door because you haven't paid your Target taxes yet. They know that if they use this data for things that people strongly object to then they will lose business. Want proof? Read the first comment in the article. There is already a bit of rejection to this process and they've hardly done anything yet.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not really against this. Target isn't going to use this data to send the Target police to your door because you haven't paid your Target taxes yet. They know that if they use this data for things that people strongly object to then they will lose business. Want proof? Read the first comment in the article. There is already a bit of rejection to this process and they've hardly done anything yet.

Yet...

Nope, opposed, corporate "rights" be damned.

[cornell]

I really don't have a problem with this.

I don't think what's going on here is sinister at all, however, if you don't want your purchases analyzed and to subsequently receive targeted spam, do NOT sign up for any store rewards card/loyalty card/membership card/branded credit card etc.

If you just pay with a regular credit card or cash, they might still perform data analytics internally, but there is no way for them to get your address and do anything with it unless you give it to them (or give them your phone number, etc.)

[ZanZibar]

+rep

Trouble is, it will soon be illegal to try and get out of the machine, and since too many people just don't care and want their cheap shit, it will suck in all of us as well.

The corporate collective is the mirror image of the state collective.Close to a very valid point.

The real problem is that this database will be too much of a treasure trove for the government to resist. They will either demand access legally, or just use a backdoor. And since corporations are not only government fiat, but are subject to all sorts of stifiling laws and regulations, they don't really want to piss off the government; so they tend to comply.

[ryanmkeisling]

Close to a very valid point.

The real problem is that this database will be too much of a treasure trove for the government to resist. They will either demand access legally, or just use a backdoor. And since corporations are not only government fiat, but are subject to all sorts of stifiling laws and regulations, they don't really want to piss off the government; so they tend to comply.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I don't believe for one minute, that DARPA doesn't illegally have one of their own in some obscure or not so obscure quasi governmental connection. How could they not when it was their idea to begin with?

[Simple]

This is revealing, but not so much for just Target stores. Image what Google thinks about you? At least at Target you can choose to pay cash.

[ryanmkeisling]

Exactly. Believe it or not I WANT advertisements that are highly targeted (no pun intended) and RELEVENT. When Facebook puts up an ad about a band I like coming to town I am excited and often times I get excited, click on the ad, and often times attend the show. Why? Because I want to know about things that I like.

What I can't stand is when I get credit card offers, or new car offers, or a feminine hygine products put in my face because I have zero chance of acting on any of them. It wastes my time and their money. Microtargeting = good.
It is all now a part of modern life for right or for wrong. Some people have been aware of this for a long time just like the song, Roger Waters is no fool:

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the Steak Bar. He loved to drive in his Jaguar.
So welcome to the machine.

[ZanZibar]

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I don't believe for one minute, that DARPA doesn't illegally have one of their own in some obscure or not so obscure quasi governmental connection. How could they not when it was their idea to begin with?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_%28signals_intelligence%29

[Anti Federalist]

That deserves a tube:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoDmS8y-XAk&feature=related

Even though the song is about getting sucked into the recording industry "machine", Waters was well aware that it was a metaphor for so much more in life, and what it would become.

I wonder what he thinks of it now, almost 40 years later, as we are so deep in the surveillance/machine grid as to not be able to escape.

I really and honestly do weep for a future when my son, will not, like I and other people my age did, have the ability to walk out into a bright blue morning and NOT be under 24/7 data mining surveillance and control.

I weep for a future when I realize that I am the last generation that lived on what could be called a free planet.

And even more troubling is the fact, demonstrated over and over and over again, that nobody fucking cares.



It is all now a part of modern life for right or for wrong. Some people have been aware of this for a long time just like the song, Roger Waters is no fool:

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? It's alright we know where you've been.
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time,
provided with toys and Scouting for Boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didn't like school, and you know you're nobody's fool,
So welcome to the machine.
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? It's alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the Steak Bar. He loved to drive in his Jaguar.
So welcome to the machine.

[Xenophage]

This is pretty sweet! Go Target.

All you knee-jerkers need to put it into perspective. The freer your society, the more available information becomes. Information in and of itself is not dangerous. Target has no guns, no tanks, no bombs, no tax men, no cops, no jails. They want to do business with you. They are not a government.

But you say, "Oh but they are a corporation and corporations are special interests and lobby the government and pull the purse strings!" You're right, but the only thing that can be done about that is to cut the purse strings.

In a free market, you end up with lots of Targets and WalMarts. You're going to get data mined because it's the new technology, the new trend and the new way of doing business. If you don't want to be data mined you can try to avoid it, but it's going to be very hard, maybe impossible. The fact is that you exist on this planet, and if you interact with society at all people will find out about you. You haven't got any right to tell someone they *can't* share information about you.

Face it, kiddos, there's only two ways this can go: Information is free, or information is controlled (and NOT by YOU).

[Anti Federalist]

You haven't got any right to tell someone they *can't* share information about you.

Oh yes I can.

That belongs to ME!

Not to the corpo/government Borg.

Fuck them, my image, my data, my personality, my existence is mine, not theirs to be used to herd us around like cattle.

Embrace the Borg hive future if you want, I fail to see why, other than to make a short buck off cheap Chinese shit made by Communist slaves, and doom your posterity to the prison grid, but not me, bub.

"Business" rights be fucked and damned to hell, I'll fight this to the day I die.

[specsaregood]

Oh yes I can.
That belongs to ME
Not to the corpo/government Borg.
Fuck them, my image, my data, my personality, my existence is mine, not theirs to be used to herd us around like cattle
Embrace the Borg hive future if you want, I fail to see why, other than to make a short buck off cheap Chinese shit made by Communist slaves, and doom your posterity to the prison grid, but not me, bub.

"Business" rights be fucked and damned to hell, I'll fight this to the day I die.

but AF, the only information they have on you is your transactions WITH THEM, that is THEIRS. If you have a right to your information, they have right to their own information which only includes your information you are willing to give them.

[Anti Federalist]

but AF, the only information they have on you is your transactions WITH THEM, that is THEIRS. If you have a right to your information, they have right to their own information which only includes your information you are willing to give them.

No, they can have whatever they want to complete a transaction.

They do NOT have the right to crunch me through an algorithm, to fold, spindle and mutilate the very essence of my persona into a cheap marketing tool (oh and we'll sell that off to the highest bidder, including government, as well).

I look at it like NICS checks for firearms, by rights, everything after the transaction has been completed and verified should be destroyed.

[heavenlyboy34]

Well, really, it shouldn't be a federal law to begin with (unconstitutional)
That hasn't stopped 'em yet. ;)

[Xenophage]

Oh yes I can.

That belongs to ME!

Not to the corpo/government Borg.

Fuck them, my image, my data, my personality, my existence is mine, not theirs to be used to herd us around like cattle.

Embrace the Borg hive future if you want, I fail to see why, other than to make a short buck off cheap Chinese shit made by Communist slaves, and doom your posterity to the prison grid, but not me, bub.

"Business" rights be fucked and damned to hell, I'll fight this to the day I die.

I know a bit about your history on RPF, based on interactions I've had with you over the years and posts I've read. If someone were to ask me, "Who's Anti Federalist?" I'd say he's a paleo-conservative type of Ron Paul supporter, posts about ten times as often as I do, and generally seems like a pretty kick ass guy even when I disagree with him from time to time.

That's information I have acquired about you. Now, you haven't got a right to tell me I can't tell anybody else what I know. The moment you start engaging with society, you start sharing information about yourself. I don't think you live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity (or you wouldn't be here, right?) so you've already consented to sharing information with other people about yourself. And what do you have to fear? Of course if you tell me to be secretive about you, I will do so out of respect for your privacy, but that's because you've already earned my respect. You can't force me.

You have to fear violence. Force. That means the police state. As far as governments are concerned, the more information they have the worse off we are. But as far as private citizens are concerned? The more the merrier! The market works on information. When information is suppressed, you end up with malinvestment or underinvestment! More information means less risk. That's a *general* principle that can be applied to all social interactions, though.

We already stalk each other on Google and Facebook. Not long from now, probably within the next several decades, you'll be able to use facial recognition on someone you meet in the street, and stream detailed data about that individual straight to your contact-lense. I'll be able to tell right away if someone I'm talking to shares my interests, what their occupation is, maybe even how many cars they own. Maybe we'll be able to tell if they like Ron Paul or not. If the government knows that and there's no checks and balances and we have lost our constitutional rights - that is a nightmare scenario. Talk about total oppression! But if everyone knows it and there's no force involved in the equation, it's a great thing.

Society has always needed to play catch-up with technology. Technologies that can be used for good can be used for evil, and sometimes it's not a 1:1 correlation. If we can't evolve into more rational, peaceful creatures, we WILL destroy ourselves. We've teetered on the edge of destruction since the early 20th century now. This is nothing new. But just like we shouldn't fear airplanes because they can be used to kill people, we shouldn't fear information because it can be used to oppress people. It depends on the society and what people are going to do with it.

Furthermore, if you don't like the Brave New World, I totally support your natural instinct to disengage from society, to live in the wild west, and fly around in your Firefly class spaceship hauling contraband and getting into pistol fights. I might join you some day, when things don't pan out the way I wish they could.

[oyarde]

Based on this data -- they know an awful lot about you....

You look a lot like this;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Unabomber-sketch.png Heh , yeah , based on no data , all bought with cash , no coupons , no customer id that belongs to me. they should keep looking for that fellow ;) , sweet ! ;}

[oyarde]

I know a bit about your history on RPF, based on interactions I've had with you over the years and posts I've read. If someone were to ask me, "Who's Anti Federalist?" I'd say he's a paleo-conservative type of Ron Paul supporter, posts about ten times as often as I do, and generally seems like a pretty kick ass guy even when I disagree with him from time to time.

That's information I have acquired about you. Now, you haven't got a right to tell me I can't tell anybody else what I know. The moment you start engaging with society, you start sharing information about yourself. I don't think you live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity (or you wouldn't be here, right?) so you've already consented to sharing information with other people about yourself. And what do you have to fear? Of course if you tell me to be secretive about you, I will do so out of respect for your privacy, but that's because you've already earned my respect. You can't force me.

You have to fear violence. Force. That means the police state. As far as governments are concerned, the more information they have the worse off we are. But as far as private citizens are concerned? The more the merrier! The market works on information. When information is suppressed, you end up with malinvestment or underinvestment! More information means less risk. That's a *general* principle that can be applied to all social interactions, though.

We already stalk each other on Google and Facebook. Not long from now, probably within the next several decades, you'll be able to use facial recognition on someone you meet in the street, and stream detailed data about that individual straight to your contact-lense. I'll be able to tell right away if someone I'm talking to shares my interests, what their occupation is, maybe even how many cars they own. Maybe we'll be able to tell if they like Ron Paul or not. If the government knows that and there's no checks and balances and we have lost our constitutional rights - that is a nightmare scenario. Talk about total oppression! But if everyone knows it and there's no force involved in the equation, it's a great thing.

Society has always needed to play catch-up with technology. Technologies that can be used for good can be used for evil, and sometimes it's not a 1:1 correlation. If we can't evolve into more rational, peaceful creatures, we WILL destroy ourselves. We've teetered on the edge of destruction since the early 20th century now. This is nothing new. But just like we shouldn't fear airplanes because they can be used to kill people, we shouldn't fear information because it can be used to oppress people. It depends on the society and what people are going to do with it.

Furthermore, if you don't like the Brave New World, I totally support your natural instinct to disengage from society, to live in the wild west, and fly around in your Firefly class spaceship hauling contraband and getting into pistol fights. I might join you some day, when things don't pan out the way I wish they could. Hey , you got something against a cabin in the woods ? you should try it ;}

[Xenophage]

Hey , you got something against a cabin in the woods ? you should try it ;}

PFFT! No way man. I'd go batshit crazy without my electricity and internet. I like to troll RPF too much :D

[oyarde]

Based on this data -- they know an awful lot about you....

You look a lot like this;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Unabomber-sketch.png I may have played poker with that guy once in the 80's , I dunno ? Ocean City ? , hard to tell , I was also in Europe , the Middle East , Africa , Central America, Asia AND WHO KNOWS WHERE ELSE ;}

[NidStyles]

The corporate collective is the mirror image of the state collective.

Too many "Libertarians" do not seem able to grasp this.

Government was an evolution of the Monarchy, which was an evolution of "Organized Religion", read as early Roman Catholicism which is actually paganism, as a state. Corporations were born out of Britain as a means for the crown to still retain control and ownership of the extensive colonial system, yet have other "Managers" more local to handle the actual day to day operations. Corporations are a part of the state. They are an evolution of the state. They are just another facet of control by which the state exerts it's force. It's only a matter of time before these Corporations bankrupt the state and take over as the sole proprietor of force. We are seeing this happen now in our lifetimes with the banks and corporations like GE simply putting a man into office to avoid taxation.

Collectivism is collectivism is collectivism. No matter the name, it's still collectivism. It's still the threat that Plato warned us about over 2000 years ago. The only way out is to remain voluntary, and to not volunteer anything of consequence to the state. The only thing I ever buy at the big-box stores is ammo, and only with cash.

[CaptainAmerica]

Unless they changed it, companies have to send in the physical coupons to the manufactures who issued them to get the money the coupon was redeemed for. If they don't collect the coupons, they have to eat the money on the offers.

If a company tracks what the customers are buying more accurately they can control their inventory better (keeping costs lower) and better match the goods they carry with what their customers are more likely to buy. The customer benefits because they are more likely to find what they need.

At my local grocery they just started a program where they have offers on their website and you pick the ones you want, attach them to your club card and you don't have to clip any coupons. They have some offers available to everybody and some tailored to specific customers based on what they buy. I have gotten extra discounts on things I usually buy and even a few free items. They may also offer me a great deal on something I don't usually buy to try to entice me but I have the power- I get to decide which offers I want to accept or not. I like to save money so try to take advantage of offers. I don't buy something I wouldn't normally simply because they gave me an offer though.

Sure they are tracking what I buy- but the intent is to increase their business- naturally, and if they meet my needs and offer me a good deal, I will probably give them more business. Sure the corporation headquarters wants to track every customer and create organic growth as well as spy on them and see what they are purchasing.IS THIS ethical?heck no its not ethical. Is it a companies business if a woman buys a certain brand of tampons?HELL NO!and is it a corporations business if a person buys bullets ?HELL NO.Its basically a loophole that corporations can spy on a person just because they are a "customer".Facebook is the virtual version of corporate spying on citizens.

[ZanZibar]

Oh yes I can.

That belongs to ME!

Not to the corpo/government Borg.

Fuck them, my image, my data, my personality, my existence is mine, :eek: I had no idea you were such a strong proponent of intellectual property?

[jmdrake]

What's the big deal? In the days of general stores, it wasn't uncommon for the shopkeeper to know who was expecting based on their purchase orders before the family of the woman knew. The difference is that the shopkeeper was personally involved in ordering those items and stocking the shelves and seeing the buyer in person instead of it all being tracked anonymously by computer.

The difference is that the shopkeeper you're talking about didn't turn around and sell that information to some telemarketer - insurance agent - government agency - fill-in-the-blank.

[oyarde]

The difference is that the shopkeeper you're talking about didn't turn around and sell that information to some telemarketer - insurance agent - government agency - fill-in-the-blank. I hope not . Pretty sure my old Hardware store guy would not have given any info on me ...

[oyarde]

PFFT! No way man. I'd go batshit crazy without my electricity and internet. I like to troll RPF too much :D Just get some oil lamps , a hand crank radio and flashlight . I must admit it is a little more boring at my age because I cannot just sit and read like I used to when younger , cannot make out the fine print with the lamp light , so I usually just grill something have a few beers and walk in the woods etc...

[musicmax]

I'm a native New Yorker who used to devour the Sunday Times. Moved away 30 years ago, was up there this weekend and read this story in my hotel-provided paper.

It (and stuff like "Arts & Leisure") inspired me to get a Sunday-only subscription, but now thinking about it I may be better off just buying it with cash at the local convenience store <grin>.

[Dianne]

My teenage daughter applied for a job at Target in 2010; and one of the questions on the employment application was "Who did you vote for in the last Presidential election?" I thought that was pretty strange.

[oyarde]

I'm a native New Yorker who used to devour the Sunday Times. Moved away 30 years ago, was up there this weekend and read this story in my hotel-provided paper.

It (and stuff like "Arts & Leisure") inspired me to get a Sunday-only subscription, but now thinking about it I may be better off just buying it with cash at the local convenience store <grin>. That is what I do , I would rather pay the extra quarter to just buy one when I am going to read it , than to have my name on the roll and pile up the ones I did not have time to read and use them to start the wood stove with.

[oyarde]

My teenage daughter applied for a job at Target in 2010; and one of the questions on the employment application was "Who did you vote for in the last Presidential election?" I thought that was pretty strange. She probably was not old enough to vote ?

[Anti Federalist]

:eek: I had no idea you were such a strong proponent of intellectual property?

It's not even about IP, this is isn't a book, or a song, or a painting.

This is the essence of who each of us are.

If you don't "own" that and can't control who uses that for God knows what, then you are not free in any sense of the word, if the corporo/government Borg can crawl into your head whenever it feels like it.

[specsaregood]

My teenage daughter applied for a job at Target in 2010; and one of the questions on the employment application was "Who did you vote for in the last Presidential election?" I thought that was pretty strange.

I'd like to see a photo of that.

[bolil]

I wish target could anticipate my heartburn and/or diarrhea.

[Anti Federalist]

I'd like to see a photo of that.

So would I

[Anti Federalist]

I wish target could anticipate my heartburn and/or diarrhea.

:eek:

[ZanZibar]

this is isn't a book, or a song, or a painting.Neither are trademarks.


If you don't "own" that and can't control who uses that for God knows what, then you are not free in any sense of the word, if the corporo/government Borg can crawl into your head whenever it feels like it.You are still advocating for some type of government control over intellectual property. I happen to agree with you, but realize what you are advocating please. :)

[Anti Federalist]

You are still advocating for some type of government control over intellectual property. I happen to agree with you, but realize what you are advocating please. :)

Oh, I realize it.

I'm the very last to shout, "there oughtta be a law!"

But, there oughtta be a law.

[specsaregood]

I wish target could anticipate my heartburn and/or diarrhea.

I wonder if buying anti-acids and pepto comes up in their stats as a sign of an expectant father. :)

[eduardo89]

I'm the very last to shout, "there oughtta be a law!"

But, there oughtta be a law.

That would be a great quote for someone's signature.

[Xhin]

My issue with it isn't businesses knowing my information, it's how secure that information is from hacking. Unless the hash is salted, an identity theif group can still use a rainbow table to figure out the actual credit card numbers and then use social engineering to fuck up your life.