Libertarian response to unwanted telemarketers - National Do Not Call Registry?

[playpianoking]

I've been getting a lot of random calls/texts lately from marketing companies. I remember hearing something in the news this week about something regarding this so I figured there must have been some deadline date or something and now all of a sudden companies are calling. I renewed my # on the do not call registry list today.

My question is what is the libertarian answer to this.

"Paul was one of only eight members of the entire Congress who voted to block implementation of the National Do Not Call Registry act, which prohibits telemarketers from telephoning those who have opted out of receiving such advertising.[84][85] He argued that "legislation to regulate telemarketing would allow the government to intrude further into our lives," and that "The fact that the privately-run Direct Marketing Association is operating its own 'do-not-call' list is evidence that consumers need not rely upon the national government to address the problems associated with telemarketers."

I'm pro Ron Paul, but I'm curious of how you would state the argument? I have heard some say that actually the do not call list is similar to a no trespassing/soliciting sign, although the trespassing sign isn't enforced by the federal government. Your thoughts?...

*Edit - sorry, I thought I posted this into Ron Paul On The Issues thread. :( Mods can move if need be.

[tom7126]

The only thing the DNC Registry accomplishes is making it difficult for marketing companies to campaign. Companies are forced to purchase a list for hundreds of dollars from the government to scrub their databases with. On top of being an expense, it reduces the amount of leads in their database. Leads are not cheap. Land lines are becoming more of a novelty item these days, as more people use cellphone family plans, and cellphone leads are difficult to acquire. They are making a bad situation worse for marketing companies.

And for those of you who hate telemarketers and want them to burn in fire, get over yourself. Just hang up. The industry employs millions of people who are under qualified to work elsewhere or have criminal backgrounds. The marketing industry is doing society a favor to ensure them a paycheck every week.

-from telemarketers

[lakefx]

The free market solution is to open your own cell phone or land-line company that allows you to block 'unknown' or specific phone numbers from calling you.

Google Voice.

Solved.

DNC obsolete within just a few years. Now IT is a novelty.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Make telemarketing worthy of the death penalty

Problem solved

And that is the libertarian response

[playpianoking]

The only thing the DNC Registry accomplishes is making it difficult for marketing companies to campaign. Companies are forced to purchase a list for hundreds of dollars from the government to scrub their databases with. On top of being an expense, it reduces the amount of leads in their database. Leads are not cheap. Land lines are becoming more of a novelty item these days, as more people use cellphone family plans, and cellphone leads are difficult to acquire. They are making a bad situation worse for marketing companies.

And for those of you who hate telemarketers and want them to burn in fire, get over yourself. Just hang up. The industry employs millions of people who are under qualified to work elsewhere or have criminal backgrounds. The marketing industry is doing society a favor to ensure them a paycheck every week.

-from telemarketers

You are not a libertarian, and I highly question your understanding of economics based on your second paragraph.

[Keith and stuff]

The government do not call list is unConstitutional and anti-freedom. You can support it if you want. It doesn't mean you are a bad person just because you are against freedom on this issue.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Really though, this would be my solution:

Designate commercial calls as trespassing if the person paying for the line wishes. It would be an opt-in opt-out program. But I would prefer it to be handled by states(or even better the telephone company)

[lakefx]

Make telemarketing worthy of the death penalty

Problem solved

And that is the libertarian response

Lol. that's quite the opposite! Because my moral compass tells me that it isn't worthy of the death penalty, (and i'm sure at least one other person would second this), and because it doesn't inherently cause any physical, emotional, or pyschological harm, it would be deemed free of governmental control. Instead you would have to prove in court of law that a telemarketer caused harm of such a kind to you or your property, then a jury would have to agree, and award you money in a civil suit. Too many civil suits would sink the telemarketing company, and deem the venture too risky. Such a risk would sink the industry. Otherwise, if you, a citizen, do not protect yourself from telemarketing calls through a combination of common sense and technological choices, then you are fair game to spam.

[blazeKing]

I don't believe in a DNC government list..but if I tell a telemarketing company to stop calling and they keep calling, that to me is harassment and I should be able to sue them for damages. After multiple lawsuits they will stop harassing everyone and you don't need a DNC list.

[cindy25]

just hang up.

if a text or e-mail delete it.

same for TV; if you don't like a program change the channel.

[alucard13mmfmj]

And for those of you who hate telemarketers and want them to burn in fire, get over yourself. Just hang up. The industry employs millions of people who are under qualified to work elsewhere or have criminal backgrounds. The marketing industry is doing society a favor to ensure them a paycheck every week.

-from telemarketers

If this is true.. then they are doing a favor for society. Because if they had no jobs and no one hires them elsewhere.. guess what? They are going to burglarize your homes and rob you or do some other destructive things. They will go back to doing the same things that landed them in jail. Odds are, its high since half or more of people who are released end up back in jail.

I just hang up on them.

[Big Chuck]

Well, the libertarian answer would be that people get telemarketing calls because of too much government regulation.

What would the free market solution be for people not wanting calls from telemarketers, bill collectors, ect? Someone could simply switch to a carrier that doesn't give your number away, blocks calls from numbers reportedly used by companies to make such calls, or a slew of other solutions. We don't have companies that offer those kind of services because there is a lack of competition. There is no need for the several big name companies to to make pricey infrastructure changes just to market to the small group of people that would pay for it. If many smaller companies fought over the market instead of just a few big name companies, we would see those types of innovations. However, due to government over regulation, telecommunications is not a sector conducive to the success of smaller companies. Verizon has a hard enough time getting permission from townships to run fiber optics in an area already served by Comcast. What chance would a small start up company have?

[kylejack]

On top of being an expense, it reduces the amount of leads in their database. Leads are not cheap. Land lines are becoming more of a novelty item these days, as more people use cellphone family plans, and cellphone leads are difficult to acquire.
"'The leads are weak.' The fucking leads are weak? You're weak. I've been in this business 15 years!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI

[tom7126]

You are not a libertarian, and I highly question your understanding of economics based on your second paragraph.

Well that's nice. Thanks for clarifying that.

[tom7126]

"'The leads are weak.' The fucking leads are weak? You're weak. I've been in this business 15 years!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI

LOL good one sir

[tom7126]

If this is true.. then they are doing a favor for society. Because if they had no jobs and no one hires them elsewhere.. guess what? They are going to burglarize your homes and rob you or do some other destructive things. They will go back to doing the same things that landed them in jail. Odds are, its high since half or more of people who are released end up back in jail.

I just hang up on them.

My point exactly. Thank you.

[j3nn]

just hang up.

if a text or e-mail delete it.

same for TV; if you don't like a program change the channel.

Bingo!

I think the libertarian response is to ignore it and hope that one day regulations and crony capitalism are out of the way so that a true free market solution can come about to the public. Some day we'll be able to block phone numbers/callers/advertisements just like we can do online and on our computers.

Sure, ads can be annoying, but I'd take them and let the free market offer solutions over the gov providing "solutions" any day.

[1836]

The free market solution is to open your own cell phone or land-line company that allows you to block 'unknown' or specific phone numbers from calling you.

Google Voice.

Solved.

DNC obsolete within just a few years. Now IT is a novelty.

+rep. Spot on and very concise!

To be a bit more specific....

...a company that would engage in the provision of such a service, if they think it marketable and salable, would be able to make a hell of a lot of money doing that. While many people decry the "technical monopolies" of Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS), the internet, cell phones, and technological innovation in general have made such technical monopolies a thing of the past. Market failures they are not!

In fact, without these "technical monopolies" there would be little incentive for someone to innovate an entirely new way to communicate via voice, to create another kind of network, and thus you have Vonage, Google Voice, and all kinds of new solutions coming to market.

In summary... the free market works.

[tom7126]

The free market has already resolved most privacy issues. Unfortunately the public is more enthralled with the idea of a government crackdown on the industry.

Tele-Zapper back in '99. Every time you answered your landline, it would play a Disconnected tone that autodialers recognize, immediately abandon upon hearing, and permanently delete from the call list. It still works, to this day.

Phone companies have offered unlisted number features forever. It's an extra cost, but until you publish your phone number independently, nobody can sell it.

Also, as for the marketing company regulating itself, the magic words, "Take me off your list." Believe me, telemarketers do not want to call irate customers. Every marketing company has a strict policy about handling those types of calls, and yes, you will be on a private do-not-call list forever.

The biggest problem I've noticed from the public is that they chose to ignore calls and not answer instead of simply opting out, which takes only a few seconds. If you do not answer the phone when it rings, you will continue to receive the same call over and over, as the dialer is simply recycling your number amongst what is most likely only a few thousand others.

Or to put it more bluntly, grow some balls and say no. Stop staring at your caller ID like a duck.

[kpitcher]

If many smaller companies fought over the market instead of just a few big name companies, we would see those types of innovations. However, due to government over regulation, telecommunications is not a sector conducive to the success of smaller companies. Verizon has a hard enough time getting permission from townships to run fiber optics in an area already served by Comcast. What chance would a small start up company have?

I'd bet the startups would be able to lay fiber if they hadn't been killed by Powel's kid running the FCC. You're right about over regulation - The big name companies are legislated monopolies. Now Comcast and draconian cable anti-compete agreements with cities are another telco issue entirely.

In 1996 there was the Telco reform act which loosened government restriction and mandated the monopolies open up their networks. What happened was the Internet revolution in the US when many small telephone companies popped up at far cheaper rates, better services, etc. This also led to thousands of Internet Service Providers across the country hooking everyone up. The newcomers started being a real threat to the bottom line of the monopolies. The new guys were starting to get into the backbone game with their own fiber lines. So the old companies did what any big business does - they used politics. When Bush Jr. got elected he put Powel's kid in charge of the FCC. The FCC rolled back the Telco reform act, giving the monopolies back their power. This led to the quick death of all those thousands of ISPs. It also jacked up the prices of ISPs, slowed down increases in speed, and actually stole about 300 billion in tax dollars specifically spent for backbone increases that was paid for but never delivered.

Maybe if Verizon was forced to deliver on their portion of the 300 billion we've already paid for in infrastructure in taxes townships may view them better. I mean Google has a few pilot projects with putting fiber optics into cities and they had areas competing on who should get the privilege. Personally I think Internet backbones should be treated as road systems. If taxpayers have paid for them, they should be open to any commercial interest at the same fixed rate. We've paid over and again the cost of having fiber to nearly every home in america, in federal and state level agreements, that are not being upheld. Or at least refund the money we've put in.

http://www.newnetworks.com/broadbandscandals.htm

[The Free Hornet]

The government do not call list is unConstitutional and anti-freedom. You can support it if you want. It doesn't mean you are a bad person just because you are against freedom on this issue.

It is a gray area because the government regulates too much of telecommunications already. They have created these conduits into our home (the mailbox is another one usurped by private interests), outlaw alternatitives (try getting permission to run wires in competition or private mail service), they jail the CEO of Qwest who didn't play nice spying on Americans, and they tax our use of these services specifically to further intrude on privacy for our security (e.g., e911).

Do I think the list is anti-libertarian? Yes. So is the phone company itself.

The desire to be left alone is at the heart of libertarianism. Not "alone" as in by yourself but free from unwanted intrusions. You may be able to hang up the phone or keep it off but the reason I can keep it on all night and not get awoken by non-emergencies is not due to the kindness of the marketers. If they weren't prevented by law from bothering me, they would be prevented by other means (preferably technology).

[Simple]

I just wait for them to stop talking then I politely tell them that I do not buy products or services from direct marketers because I do not want to encourage them to call me at home. It does help having a bit torrent based phone, not many marketers can find me. OOma for the win =)

[Big Chuck]

It does help having a bit torrent based phone...

BitTorrent as in P2P? I'm assuming you mean VoIP, or is this something new I don't know about?

[DamianTV]

I dont think this is really a Libertarian Response from me but this is what I do with telemarketers. I make it as financially painful as I can with them to call me at all. I've had telemarketers that I've gotten on the phone for pushing an hour to tell them that I never had any intention of purchasing their products, but had EVERY intention of wasting their time while those telemarketers could have called at least 50 other people. This happened only two or three times. Each of those companies were calling me DAILY and requesting to talk with our General Manager, to which of course, I would promptly reply "Take me off of your call list", which only succeeded in those companies immediately calling back, sometimes in the same day. After purposefully wasting their time, they never called me again.

Text Msg Spam: I dont get Txt Msg Spam. NEVER give out your cell number to ANYONE. IPhone users will have a much harder time because installing an app pretty much gives that company your phone number and address book. And what do you think they do with your address book? Sell the numbers based on the type of app installed, which shows what kind of interests you have. Oh yeah, they didnt pay you for that, or even ask your permission.

Email Spam: Same thing as a phone number. NEVER give out your email address to ANYONE except personal friends. ALL COMPANIES ARE OFF LIMITS. Once you are on a list, you have lost control and that email address is dead.

Libertarian Response: Dont buy shit from telemarketers, EVER. If stupid people would quit buying shit from telemarketers, the problems and aggravation they cause for the rest of us would go away. No laws, no intervention, no do not call lists. Those things would not be needed because Free Market would cause those businesses to dry up and go under. That really is the best Libertarian Response I can make at this point, but it is Unrealistic. There are too many stupid people willing to respond to Telemarketing. I think another way to put it would be the same way as we could effectively financially collapse the entire Oil Industry. Stop using oil, period. However, in the Really Real World, we are dependant on Oil for everything that comes from its results, like Plastics and Gasoline. The end result of not getting rid of said businesses will be political intervention attempting to regulate those industries.

[muh_roads]

If DNC did not exist. The private market would find another way. The first cellphone company to allow users to manually block numbers free of charge would win out. Then competition would permeate that convenience onto other cellphone companies.

[AFPVet]

I agree with the many responses here. I would think the phone companies would be able to enforce a better "do not call registry" than the government.

[Simple]

BitTorrent as in P2P? I'm assuming you mean VoIP, or is this something new I don't know about?

However ooma works. Its nice not having a phone bill. http://www.ooma.com/

Doesn't look like I'm far off, this page described the service as "like a bit torrent." http://venturebeat.com/2007/07/18/ooma-hopes-to-make-a-boom-with-free-land-line-calling-service/

[Xenophage]

I don't think government action is necessary for a Do Not Call list. It's something the carriers could provide. Maintaining such a list costs money - it's not free just because it's from the government (like anything is!). Instead of making all of us pay for it, it would be better economically, and more moral, to have those individuals that wanted it pay for the additional service. It's something certain carriers probably would provide free of charge if they felt they could increase their subscriber base significantly enough to offset costs.

[Taco John]

I've been getting a lot of random calls/texts lately from marketing companies. I remember hearing something in the news this week about something regarding this so I figured there must have been some deadline date or something and now all of a sudden companies are calling. I renewed my # on the do not call registry list today.

My question is what is the libertarian answer to this.

"Paul was one of only eight members of the entire Congress who voted to block implementation of the National Do Not Call Registry act, which prohibits telemarketers from telephoning those who have opted out of receiving such advertising.[84][85] He argued that "legislation to regulate telemarketing would allow the government to intrude further into our lives," and that "The fact that the privately-run Direct Marketing Association is operating its own 'do-not-call' list is evidence that consumers need not rely upon the national government to address the problems associated with telemarketers."

I'm pro Ron Paul, but I'm curious of how you would state the argument? I have heard some say that actually the do not call list is similar to a no trespassing/soliciting sign, although the trespassing sign isn't enforced by the federal government. Your thoughts?...

*Edit - sorry, I thought I posted this into Ron Paul On The Issues thread. :( Mods can move if need be.

The solution is to force phone companies to give you more control of your line. Why don't I have an interface through the Internet that allows me to block certain phone numbers from calling me? Why can't I give it a list of "accepted numbers?" The solution is between the consumer and tthe phone company. A consumer movement towards competition that is offering this would reform this in a way that is ultimately more responsive to the consumer.

[thoughtomator]

The biggest problem I've noticed from the public is that they chose to ignore calls and not answer instead of simply opting out, which takes only a few seconds. If you do not answer the phone when it rings, you will continue to receive the same call over and over, as the dialer is simply recycling your number amongst what is most likely only a few thousand others.

The worst ones - the ones who ignore DNC - will simply take that as confirmation that it is a valid number and resell it to others with similar ethical standards.

[AlexAmore]

I dont think this is really a Libertarian Response from me but this is what I do with telemarketers. I make it as financially painful as I can with them to call me at all. I've had telemarketers that I've gotten on the phone for pushing an hour to tell them that I never had any intention of purchasing their products, but had EVERY intention of wasting their time while those telemarketers could have called at least 50 other people. This happened only two or three times. Each of those companies were calling me DAILY and requesting to talk with our General Manager, to which of course, I would promptly reply "Take me off of your call list", which only succeeded in those companies immediately calling back, sometimes in the same day. After purposefully wasting their time, they never called me again.

Libertarian Response: Dont buy shit from telemarketers, EVER. If stupid people would quit buying shit from telemarketers, the problems and aggravation they cause for the rest of us would go away. No laws, no intervention, no do not call lists. Those things would not be needed because Free Market would cause those businesses to dry up and go under. That really is the best Libertarian Response I can make at this point, but it is Unrealistic. There are too many stupid people willing to respond to Telemarketing. I think another way to put it would be the same way as we could effectively financially collapse the entire Oil Industry. Stop using oil, period. However, in the Really Real World, we are dependant on Oil for everything that comes from its results, like Plastics and Gasoline. The end result of not getting rid of said businesses will be political intervention attempting to regulate those industries.

I can understand the hatred of telemarketers calling to home numbers and there's plenty of libertarian solutions to that, but business 2 business? Don't touch it.

1. Telemarketing is actually the CHEAPEST entry into the market for small businesses. Yes lead lists are expensive but Google is free and effective for many small businesses.

2. Telemarketing WORKS. Which means voluntary exchange is happening and at the rate of billions a year. This helps everyone when voluntary exchange happens easily and cheaply.

3. There's a market for telemarketers obviously. They're a direct line to a knowledgeable person for business owners who aren't internet savvy. Also for people who don't even know a solution is out there for a particular problem. How could they know to search for it without someone coming to them unsolicited at first?

Yes a lot of telemarketers suck. They just go right into pitching their product and play the numbers game. It's a bummer because there are much better ways. But to try to take the phone out of the equation, then what? Mail? Email? Door to Door? Would you rather have salesmen showing up in your business, and in your face at a higher rate? You'll probably end up getting the same high school drop out. You're opening Pandora's box with this nonsense.

Should we just take out every method except expensive commercials and billboards? Good bye small businesses. Everyone needs a $100,000 marketing budget to start so we can skip over the methods that annoy DamienTV because he's in denial that part of his job is gatekeeping.