Maine GOP head sz new count wd give Mitt bigger lead but wont release numbers

[sailingaway]

also tries to make it sound like we are driving his secretary to tears and issuing death threats because, after all, those Paul folks would do anything

Interesting, all the same: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/15/maine-gop-adds-missing-caucus-votes-but-wont-release-updated-vote-count/

[sailingaway]

here's another approach: http://www.mpbn.net/Home/tabid/36/ctl/ViewItem/mid/3478/ItemId/20308/Default.aspx

[rp08orbust]

Ron Paul beat Mitt Romney in Washington Co. in 2008. Why the heck would Mitt have beaten him there this year when Ron Paul's support has doubled in the state overall?

[dillo]

If he wants the press to go away why wouldn't he just release the new count?

[swissaustrian]

So he is admitting that they didn't count correctly!

[alucard13mmfmj]

Pretty sure the longer this goes on.. the more time they have to cover their tracks and/or to commit more "fraud"/mistakes.

[Sematary]

Webster said that all he wants is for the “press feeding frenzy” to end. “I’m not going to restart the fire” by releasing the updated results, he said.

Isn't the only way he's going to "restart the fire" is if the vote went opposite of what he's saying?

[Edward]

So he is admitting that they didn't count correctly!

This.

[bcreps85]

According to most of what other people have found, the opposite is true. Something was changed on WatchTheVote though, and Paul's total was reduced, while Romney's was slightly raised, so worst case scenario is we might be about even with where we were. Still, doing things in secret and expecting "conspiracy theories" to go away is about as retarded of a mindset as one can get.

The worst part of it all is that with the colleges on break, we'll never know what might have happened now. I hope we are able to slam the caucuses this weekend, but am fearful of what might happen if we don't/can't.

[sailingaway]

Ron Paul beat Mitt Romney in Washington Co. in 2008. Why the heck would Mitt have beaten him there this year when Ron Paul's support has doubled in the state overall?

tripled

[bcreps85]

Pretty sure the longer this goes on.. the more time they have to cover their tracks and/or to commit more "fraud"/mistakes.

Which is the problem I'm having with his statement right now. Every mistake the community has found has been the opposite of what he's saying their recounts are revealing. I get the impression that they are now buying time to game the numbers "Just in case" they have to count the last 15% or so of the votes...

[Matthew5]

Here's an idea...don't lie in the first place.

[sailingaway]

Which is the problem I'm having with his statement right now. Every mistake the community has found has been the opposite of what he's saying their recounts are revealing. I get the impression that they are now buying time to game the numbers "Just in case" they have to count the last 15% or so of the votes...

I suspect he's implying that for every issue we tracked, all of which came out in Rons favor he found two from areas we never thought to question that he corrects in Romney's favor, sort of like when they threw out 70 of Ron's delegates from the city of Portland.....when we don't have the overall body of information we are at a definite disadvantage. As long as he never releases actual locations and results we can't check them.

[Matthew5]

Which is the problem I'm having with his statement right now. Every mistake the community has found has been the opposite of what he's saying their recounts are revealing. I get the impression that they are now buying time to game the numbers "Just in case" they have to count the last 15% or so of the votes...

Yep, it's all a stall tactic to either hope people just give up or to create another lie.

[seeker4sho]

They need to count the votes and let he chips fall where they may, anything less is BS. Those involved with dirty tricks should be prosecuted.

[bcreps85]

I suspect he's implying that for every issue we tracked, all of which came out in Rons favor he found two from areas we never thought to question that he corrects in Romney's favor, sort of like when they threw out 70 of Ron's delegates from the city of Portland.....when we don't have the overall body of information we are at a definite disadvantage. As long as he never releases actual locations and results we can't check them.

Which is why I hope that people in Maine are trying to get all the information they can AND preparing to slam the caucuses this weekend. The boards are not making me hopeful that this is in the works. I expect they are trying to game the system a little here and there because they can't make it too obvious and will probably want to make it look like Romney gained 20-30 votes or something. We need to overcome what little bit of cheating they can do here without raising eyebrows, IMHO.

[sailingaway]

Which is why I hope that people in Maine are trying to get all the information they can AND preparing to slam the caucuses this weekend. The boards are not making me hopeful that this is in the works. I expect they are trying to game the system a little here and there because they can't make it too obvious and will probably want to make it look like Romney gained 20-30 votes or something. We need to overcome what little bit of cheating they can do here without raising eyebrows, IMHO.

If you think about it that is exactly what they did with leaving the caucuses out that they did, 12 votes here, 8 votes there.... no one huge smoking gun....

that is IF it was intentional, which I am starting to wonder about when he has numbers he won't release until after super tuesday.

[kathy88]

here's another approach: http://www.mpbn.net/Home/tabid/36/ctl/ViewItem/mid/3478/ItemId/20308/Default.aspx

LOVED that one!

[kathy88]

“people are going to sense a conspiracy and this is going to keep going.”


I'm wondering why he used the word "sense." Doesn't that suggest impropriety?

[parocks]

Ron Paul beat Mitt Romney in Washington Co. in 2008. Why the heck would Mitt have beaten him there this year when Ron Paul's support has doubled in the state overall?

Actually Romney beat Paul in Washington Co in 2008.

Check your PMs.

[parocks]

The official results have us winning Portland. Some think it's the other way around. That's 30 votes right there for Romney if that's true. 16 in Waterville for Paul.

[parocks]

Paypal Address for Washington County, Maine boots on the ground
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?361016-Paypal-Address-for-Washington-County-Maine-boots-on-the-ground

*********************

Washington County Maine needs MONEY. This person (Valerie Page) has been working on the ground in Maine. I suggested we sent money to someone who can spend it.
Here's what I got back from her on Facebook.

*******************

I set up a paypal James. My email address is assistedbyangels@yahoo.com. I would like to get a crew in place to 1: start calling the district, I will call Eric and get a list from him and 2: to head north for the caucus. Maybe we will have enough donations to cram a few of us into a hotel room, who knows?
Thank you for your help in all of this. We will be heard!!

*********************

Valerie Page is taking an organizational role, for those who are sending money, those who are planning on going to Wash Co., etc - see her email there.

By the way - she's trying to register here at Ron Paul Forums and is unable to.

[Edward]

I wonder if he has acted on the "death threats" he claims to have received.

[BrittanySligar]

Preparing himself for when we make up the 200 votes in WA county.. he will say oops, didn't get it right the first time.. mitt still won.

[thoughtomator]

Gardner belongs in jail... I hope he gets prosecuted

[RonPaul101.com]

So THEY jacked up the count intentionally and we're the assholes here? I don't think so...

We don't need a recount, one complete count will do just fine.

[pauliticalfan]

All we want is the real, official, complete vote count, and somehow we're the bad guys?! You've got to be kidding me. Webster is an incompetent fool, and his staffer needs to learn how to count and/or use a computer.

[Barrex]

He/she/it (what is GOP) is lying. I had a chat on dailypaul with someone from Maine and all missing data is from places where Ron won. They CAUGHT them reporting WRONG numbers! There is my thread about this and few others and also on dailypaul too:
http://www.dailypaul.com/213402/maine-gop-caucus-results#comment-2235992


For 1 example: For entire Waldo County they have reported the numbers for Belfast(which is only 1 town in Waldo County). Rest towns were reported as zero which is not true.

[J_White]

there are two statements that are in conflict in that report -


According to Webster, he has been an honest broker, but he will not release the updated vote count ahead a March 10 meeting of the 83-or-so-member state party committee because “people are going to sense a conspiracy and this is going to keep going.”
this might suggest that the new count does have Dr.Paul ahead of Romney, and thus releasing it now would confirm that the original totals were fudged and Romney was made the winner not by votes but because of corrupt vote counters.
OR it might suggest that now Romney has even more lead over Paul, and thus releasing it now would seem like they are trying to buffer Romney against our Adelsonizing Washington county poll.


Asked if anyone has access to the updated results, which he said show Romney with a greater lead after vote adjustments, Webster said absolutely not.
Later in the article this sentence seems to suggest that the new totals do give Romney a larger lead.

So I dont know what to make of it.
I just hope whether it counts or not , Washington county has a good Paul win !

[libertybrewcity]

Can the courts get involved in this in any way?

[RonPaulGetsIt]

Why is no one asking him why he instructed the causcuses to NOT read the votes allowed?

[J_White]

u mean aloud !

Why is no one asking him why he instructed the causcuses to NOT read the votes allowed?

[The Gold Standard]

They know there will be an uproar to include Washington County in the results, so they aren't going to release anything until after that so they know exactly how many new Romney votes they have to concoct.

[Feelgood]

Freedom of Information Act?

[Agorism]

Freedom of Information Act?

That's for government organizations not private ones.

[Srg1]

I remember Charlie Webster sitting in the back while that lady was talking and he had that shitstain smile on his face 5 to 10 minutes before he announced the winner.I knew by the smile on his face ron paul had lost.

[dancjm]

Pretty sure the longer this goes on.. the more time they have to cover their tracks and/or to commit more "fraud"/mistakes.

The way I see it, the longer this goes on the more vulnerable someone is to be exposed as having committed electoral fraud.

[Tod]

Why is no one asking him why he instructed the causcuses to NOT read the votes allowed?

I asked Kim P. at the state office and she explained it this way: the caucuses were instructed not to share results with the press so that the hype for the state press conference wouldn't be diminished.

So....Matt in Belfast (Ben Swann's video) is saying those were not the instructions.

Were the instructions sent via e-mail? If so, share and PROVE that Kim P. was not being correct.

Haven't heard back from Chris Gardner yet....I expect he's been buried with e-mail.

[opinionatedfool]

also tries to make it sound like we are driving his secretary to tears and issuing death threats because, after all, those Paul folks would do anything

Interesting, all the same: http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/15/maine-gop-adds-missing-caucus-votes-but-wont-release-updated-vote-count/

How did he only get 1800 emails?

[Vanilluxe]

That's for government organizations not private ones.

Even so, fraud and scams are still illegal private or not.

[sailingaway]

Why is no one asking him why he instructed the causcuses to NOT read the votes allowed?

apparently Montana is suddenly doing the same thing. they were supposed to be read at the caucus. People have to make motions to make sure they are read.

[mosquitobite]

apparently Montana is suddenly doing the same thing. they were supposed to be read at the caucus. People have to make motions to make sure they are read.

shady shady shit!!!

I hope the campaign makes sure to send an email to every supporter in Montana!!

[SCOTUSman]

Even so, fraud and scams are still illegal private or not.

Usually money has to be involved for the most part...or a deal that was broken. There was no deal. The caucus rules and state gop rules are basically the rules of a baseball game. The commissioner of MLB can basically do whatever he wants....as can the head of the state GOP.

[SCOTUSman]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised by the death threats. People send death threats over everything now days. They send death threats to referees and umpires over sporting events.....so I would bet a lot of money they received death threats. We live in an absolutely sick society.

[sailingaway]

Usually money has to be involved for the most part...or a deal that was broken. There was no deal. The caucus rules and state gop rules are basically the rules of a baseball game. The commissioner of MLB can basically do whatever he wants....as can the head of the state GOP.

I don't know. Members who pay dues might have a cause of action under the right circumstances. But I'd rather go after the monopoly practices, debates, ballot access, that keep people from just being able to elect anyone they want without the parties. If the parties are a private club, they shouldn't be given monopoly edge to keep others from competing.

[JJ2]

WOW! That's the most incredible article I've ever read!!! Every paragraph is just...wow!


According to Webster, he has been an honest broker, but he will not release the updated vote count ahead a March 10 meeting of the 83-or-so-member state party committee because "people are going to sense a conspiracy and this is going to keep going."

WOW!!! They are now admitting election fraud!!!

This is like an Alex Jones story on steroids! Unbelievable!

I can just hear Alex Jones tomorrow:

[CUE ALEX JONES VOICE:] "Yes, we are going to 'sense' a conspiracy, because we could check your numbers precinct by precinct and prove it, you elitist globalist scum!!!"

LOL, this stuff is unbelievable. You couldn't make up a story this good for the Onion. Wow.

[sailingaway]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised by the death threats. People send death threats over everything now days. They send death threats to referees and umpires over sporting events.....so I would bet a lot of money they received death threats. We live in an absolutely sick society.

I heard a lot of anger here, and not one death threat even in jest against a third party not here. THat is the sort of easy thing to say as an accusation against 'Ron Paul supporters' that is difficult to disprove, but I do doubt it.

[Barrex]

If you wish discuss about it this is a must read:

http://www.mainegop.com/about-2/rules-and-by-laws/


Rule 1. broken
Rule 2. broken
Rule 7. (is that webster guy superdelegate?) This is a way to remove him from super-delegates if he is.
Rule 16. gives oportunity to act from within and forces them to answer and address every question you raise.


There are more things but start with this....

There is a remedy for this situation (within republican party and outside).

[SCOTUSman]

I don't know. Members who pay dues might have a cause of action under the right circumstances. But I'd rather go after the monopoly practices, debates, ballot access, that keep people from just being able to elect anyone they want without the parties. If the parties are a private club, they shouldn't be given monopoly edge to keep others from competing.

You may be right, it could be an implied contract. You set the rules, the campaigns spend money there in the state, they participate, etc. as well as the voters, they think they are playing and participating under certain rules and they are changed in the middle or after the fact could possible be cause of action...it is just hard. The parties are considered non-public organizations. LIbertarian party doesn't even have a primary....so. But, at the very least it is dirty, unfair and cheating. Just because it may be legal (which it may not necessarily be), doesn't mean it should ever be done. Definitely isn't ethical or even moral.


I heard a lot of anger here, and not one death threat even in jest against a third party not here. THat is the sort of easy thing to say as an accusation against 'Ron Paul supporters' that is difficult to disprove, but I do doubt it.

I hear you on that. But most people are usually too cowardly to publicly make a death threat or let it be known. And it is definitely an easy claim to be made and one that is hard to disprove. But, I mean I know it has happened to people I officiate with. Or people I know in the officiating world. I think I once saw one death threat online, but I know for sure the guy received over a 100 death threats whether directly to him or people in his family. It really is commonplace now...especially with the internet....and information easily accessible

[JJ2]

Webster maintains that Paul should call it quits in Maine, saying that achieving a 200-vote margin of victory in Washington County — where only 113 voters cast ballots in the 2008 GOP race — “isn’t humanly possible.”

It "isn't humanly possible" to get 200 people to caucus in a county that has 15,000 eligible voters?! Or it "isn't humanly possible" to overturn your rigged election outcome?

Has anyone ever heard a state party chairman openly telling a candidate to "quit" campaigning for more votes in their state, because they are afraid that candidate might win, under the thinly veiled premise that it is "humanly impossible" for them to get 200 of their supporters to caucus out of 15,000 potential voters?!?!

Again, this is just unbelievable stuff.

[goldwater's ghost]

dont think there is anything "unbelievable" about this. This is the real world where men in power or those seeking it do anything necessary to keep or gain power. Ron Paul is a threat to the establishment and the establishment must do everything in its power to derail him. We should expect this. Sadly it seems we are always surprised when this happens and it seems this has happened in at least half the states. Its time for RP to take off the gloves and start hitting back

[wangchungish312]

Proving it is one matter but I think it's pretty obvious what's going on here.

[JJ2]

They are so afraid of Paul that they won't even let him win one state.

[Mark37snj]

I'm just wondering where all the Anit-Fraud police went? Just after the Nevada circus they were everywhere, Don't claim Fraud, you personally have no proof and no right to say it was fraud. I guess they slithered back under their rocks.

[Badger Paul]

If it's true that such results would make Romney's lead bigger, why not release them to keep the Paul forces from screaming fraud? Seems logical doesn't it?

It seems to me someone wants to keep such results a secret in order to make sure Romney still has more votes in the end.

[bbwarfield]

I'm just wondering where all the Anit-Fraud police went? Just after the Nevada circus they were everywhere, Don't claim Fraud, you personally have no proof and no right to say it was fraud. I guess they slithered back under their rocks.

we are still here.... but this was clearly bungled.... even the media is crying foul now. Nevada I think there was some little things here... little things there... but none of wich add up to rampant top down fraud....... we all expect a little bottom up fraud (voter fraud) but no one expects full out election fraud wich we are seeing growing evidence of every day. Of course no one expects the Spanish inquisition either....... just ask monty python about that

[giovannile07]

How come they always put bad pictures of Paul...

[Mark37snj]

we are still here.... but this was clearly bungled.... even the media is crying foul now. Nevada I think there was some little things here... little things there... but none of wich add up to rampant top down fraud....... we all expect a little bottom up fraud (voter fraud) but no one expects full out election fraud wich we are seeing growing evidence of every day. Of course no one expects the Spanish inquisition either....... just ask monty python about that

Not yet at least. Those numbers out in Washoe county Nevada are screming for a Ben Swann Reality Check investigation. Im also not gona wait for the MSM to lead the charge over voter fraud. When did they become the Permission Barometer of voter fraud?

[bbwarfield]

Not yet at least. Those numbers out in Washoe county Nevada are screming for a Ben Swann Reality Check investigation.

i do tend to agree..... it all sounded fishy... unfortunately the conflictions i saw were corrected on the larger scale.... but it still seems like something fishy.... but then im a firm believer it should be illegal to yell "fraud" in a crowded ron paul meetup (and as a side note.... I went and saw star wars episode 1 n 3d last night and got to scream FIRE! in the theatre me and a friend were the only two in the whole dang place)

[Mark37snj]

i do tend to agree..... it all sounded fishy... unfortunately the conflictions i saw were corrected on the larger scale.... but it still seems like something fishy.... but then im a firm believer it should be illegal to yell "fraud" in a crowded ron paul meetup (and as a side note.... I went and saw star wars episode 1 n 3d last night and got to scream FIRE! in the theatre me and a friend were the only two in the whole dang place)

And what exactly does this mean? Corrected, by whom, where, how, why? Last I checked Ron Paul's votes in Washoe county were still down ~23-26% over last primary results, where all other areas were up by ~23-26%.

[Vanilluxe]

You may be right, it could be an implied contract. You set the rules, the campaigns spend money there in the state, they participate, etc. as well as the voters, they think they are playing and participating under certain rules and they are changed in the middle or after the fact could possible be cause of action...it is just hard. The parties are considered non-public organizations. LIbertarian party doesn't even have a primary....so. But, at the very least it is dirty, unfair and cheating. Just because it may be legal (which it may not necessarily be), doesn't mean it should ever be done. Definitely isn't ethical or even moral.



I hear you on that. But most people are usually too cowardly to publicly make a death threat or let it be known. And it is definitely an easy claim to be made and one that is hard to disprove. But, I mean I know it has happened to people I officiate with. Or people I know in the officiating world. I think I once saw one death threat online, but I know for sure the guy received over a 100 death threats whether directly to him or people in his family. It really is commonplace now...especially with the internet....and information easily accessible

Also some taxpayers money are paying for these caucuses, so it is relevant to the public whether there are rip-offs or not!

[SCOTUSman]

Also some taxpayers money are paying for these caucuses, so it is relevant to the public whether there are rip-offs or not!

Great point.

[JJ2]

I'm just wondering where all the Anit-Fraud police went? Just after the Nevada circus they were everywhere, Don't claim Fraud, you personally have no proof and no right to say it was fraud. I guess they slithered back under their rocks.

I think we've converted most of them. ;)

Or more accurately, Charlie Webster has converted most of them. ;)

[JJ2]

How come they always put bad pictures of Paul...

Haha, that's the "Crazy Old Uncle Ron" picture that the AP loves to promulgate.

[SCOTUSman]

The problem with claiming fraud after each contest, it sounds like you are crying wolf.

In Iowa it was the eight precincts...that couldn't have changed our positioning in the finish...nor even close to it. In New Hampshire it was an insignificant amount of dead people claimed to hurt us. In South Carolina it was diebold. In Florida it was diebold. In Nevada tons of fraud. Same in Colorado, Minnesota and Maine. Only state I didn't see any fraud claims was Missouri.

[Mark37snj]

The problem with claiming fraud after each contest, it sounds like you are crying wolf.

In Iowa it was the eight precincts...that couldn't have changed our positioning in the finish...nor even close to it. In New Hampshire it was an insignificant amount of dead people claimed to hurt us. In South Carolina it was diebold. In Florida it was diebold. In Nevada tons of fraud. Same in Colorado, Minnesota and Maine. Only state I didn't see any fraud claims was Missouri.

Those 8 precincts were near colleges and universities. Less then 4K votes was the difference between 1st and 3rd, they absolutely could have made the difference. There was no big uproar of fraud over HN. We did not contest Florida and there was significant yelling of fraud over Florida either. Havn't heard any uproar over Minnesota, a little in Colorado but it was just one person. So my take on RPF members justfifably yelling fraud, more then just one person here and there, is Iowa, Nevada, and now Maine. Given where Paul came in and by how much, fraud may very well have been responsible for Paul finishing lower then he should have. In all 3 cases: Iowa 4K< votes, Nevada 800< votes, Maine 200< votes. WOW, I didn't realize how big an impact such a small number of votes made. Also notice each time the margin of loss is getting smaller and smaller. Maybe if we raise enough of an uproar people who might be inclined to help the GOP behind the scenes may not be so willing to do so if/when their time comes.

[randomname]

Instead of emailing Webster himself, shouldnt we be emailing the rest of the Maine GOP leadership pressuring them to have him fired?

[SCOTUSman]

Those 8 precincts were near colleges and universities. Less then 4K votes was the difference between 1st and 3rd, they absolutely could have made the difference. There was no big uproar of fraud over HN. We did not contest Florida and there was significant yelling of fraud over Florida either. Havn't heard any uproar over Minnesota, a little in Colorado but it was just one person. So my take on RPF members justfifably yelling fraud, more then just one person here and there, is Iowa, Nevada, and now Maine. Given where Paul came in and by how much, fraud may very well have been responsible for Paul finishing lower then he should have. In all 3 cases: Iowa 4K< votes, Nevada 800< votes, Maine 200< votes. WOW, I didn't realize how big an impact such a small number of votes made. Also notice each time the margin of loss is getting smaller and smaller. Maybe if we raise enough of an uproar people who might be inclined to help the GOP behind the scenes may not be so willing to do so if/when their time comes.

It was not 4,000 votes in the Iowa precincts that were excluded. They were all small precincts. This had been said multiple times. Those precincts did not have on average 500 people (let alone 500 vote GAIN over Santorum and Romney in each precinct on average). Though the way the caucuses went down were very very suspicious in the count, but intentional fraud? I don't know...

I don't disagree with Nevada and Maine. However to claim fraud every state, which I have seen personally (although by very few in some of the states)...it still makes subsequent claims less credible. Even just take the major claims of Iowa and Nevada...that is already two claims...a third claim becomes tireless. If we do it every state....it goes by the ears of people in the media and the party. Their response can be that "those people claim fraud in every state."

[Mark37snj]

It was not 4,000 votes in the Iowa precincts that were excluded. They were all small precincts. This had been said multiple times. Those precincts did not have on average 500 people (let alone 500 vote GAIN over Santorum and Romney in each precinct on average). Though the way the caucuses went down were very very suspicious in the count, but intentional fraud? I don't know...."

Those precincts are MISSING. No one knows how many votes were cast there. We have seen voter totals INCREASE of 400% so far. And those instance of fraud were the ones we caught. Why do people keep missing/ignoring this point. For every act of fraud caught, how many acts of fraud never get caught?



I don't disagree with Nevada and Maine. However to claim fraud every state, which I have seen personally (although by very few in some of the states)...it still makes subsequent claims less credible. Even just take the major claims of Iowa and Nevada...that is already two claims...a third claim becomes tireless. If we do it every state....it goes by the ears of people in the media and the party. Their response can be that "those people claim fraud in every state."

Actually the fact the Maine is getting so much more attention is proff that your statement is wrong. The crying wolf analogy is easy to use and claim as fact but in this case the facts say the opposite. AND RPF is not saying cry fraud at every turn, a few may here and there but not enough to paint us all as having done so. Just where it is applicable and so far the RPF seem to be hitting the nail on the head. Any moron knows that if you go around crying this and that at every turn with no justification people will just ignore you, thats just stating the obvious, but THAT IS NOT WHATS HAPPENING HERE, so plz stop insinuaiting that that is whats going on here, its not. Don't paint the RPF with a broad brush of crying foul all the time just because a few do.

[bobburn]

In 2008 those precincts represented a couple hundred votes. Unless they had >10x increase, they would have no effect.

[Mark37snj]

In 2008 those precincts represented a couple hundred votes. Unless they had >10x increase, they would have no effect.

The votes totals are not the point, voter fraud is the point. Tell me, at what point is complaining about voter fraud acceptable? 200 votes, 2000 votes, 200K votes. At what point is it acceptable?

[speciallyblend]

In 2008 those precincts represented a couple hundred votes. Unless they had >10x increase, they would have no effect.

fraud is fraud one vote or 1000's of votes. They didn't even count them period! and many vote totals have increased more then 10X in my precinct alone it jumped x8 in attendies!

[Adam West]

C'mon, everyone knows electtion fraud has been going on for thousands of years. It occurs in each State election (to varying degrees), but where do you draw the line in the sand? This is too blatant to ignore. They are kicking sand in the American voters face. If you don't act now, you might as well sit at home and let the media, elephants and Donkeys make the decision for you.

[bobburn]

When the issue is easily attributable to incompetence as was the case in Iowa and Nevada, I am wary to scream fraud without further proof. Maine, on the other hand, had proof. That is why people aren't saying anything this time.

[Mark37snj]

When the issue is easily attributable to incompetence as was the case in Iowa and Nevada, I am wary to scream fraud without further proof. Maine, on the other hand, had proof. That is why people aren't saying anything this time.

So what proff of incompetence was provided for 8 entire precincts of Iowa votes just dissapearing?
So what proff of incompetence was provided to explain why Ron Paul had an increse in his vote totals over 2008 from 23-26% in the rest of Nevada but had a decrease of 23-26% in Washoe County?

[PaulConventionWV]

So what proff of incompetence was provided for 8 entire precincts of Iowa votes just dissapearing?
So what proff of incompetence was provided to explain why Ron Paul had an increse in his vote totals over 2008 from 23-26% in the rest of Nevada but had a decrease of 23-26% in Washoe County?

I know what you're saying and I believe you, but I have to call you out here for using faulty logic. It is not his job to prove that it WASN'T voter fraud. If you are claiming fraud, then it is YOUR job to prove it WAS fraud because you bear the burden of proof for making positive claims. The one making negative claims doesn't bear the burden of proof because you can't prove a negative.

[Adam West]

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

[Adam West]

I know what stinks to high heaven!

[Mark37snj]

I know what you're saying and I believe you, but I have to call you out here for using faulty logic. It is not his job to prove that it WASN'T voter fraud. If you are claiming fraud, then it is YOUR job to prove it WAS fraud because you bear the burden of proof for making positive claims. The one making negative claims doesn't bear the burden of proof because you can't prove a negative.

I posted this already on this thread.


I'm just wondering where all the Anit-Fraud police went? Just after the Nevada circus they were everywhere, Don't claim Fraud, you personally have no proof and no right to say it was fraud. I guess they slithered back under their rocks.

So then by your logic NO ONE is ALLOWED to claim voter fraud unless THEY THEMSELVES HAVE THE SMOKING GUN?

EDIT: Your logic is also faulty in that I was not trying to disprove what others were saying. I made the claim of fraud, (its my opinion, 1st amendment, free speech, I don't need to provide proof to have an opinion) others tried to refute what I was saying. It's up to THEM to provide the proof against my claim, they made the claim I was wrong, they need to prove it, not I. When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. They claimed that I was wrong, the burden of proof is on them.

EDIT 2.0: Now if I was formally challenging the Maine GOP caucus results and accusing them of fraud then it would be my responsibility to provide that proof of fraud.

[UK4Paul]

Look, there is a simple solution that America has advocated time and time again.

Call in UN observers.

Looks like the GOP need them.

Ironic, ain't it :)

[A. Havnes]

Look, there is a simple solution that America has advocated time and time again.

Call in UN observers.

Looks like the GOP need them.

Ironic, ain't it :)

No, just make sure you video tape the public count (and you'd better make sure there's a public count), post the results on forums, twitter, facebook, etc. That way things like this will be much less likely to happen, or at least harder to pull off.

In the meantime, we need to demand to see the numbers and where they came from.

[Adam West]

Look, there is a simple solution that America has advocated time and time again.

Call in UN observers.

Looks like the GOP need them.

Ironic, ain't it :)

I got it. Like your thinking, and I DO get the irony.

[RonPaul101.com]

The GOP in Maine is just going to strongarm the RP Campaign anyway, which is why Paul is not fighting it publicly. If the count in the end proves a Romney win, they WILL release the data and if the count in the end proves a Ron Paul victory they will STICK to the claim that this is a non-binding beauty contest that is not worth wasting Maine resources to figure out.

[georgiaboy]

Look, there is a simple solution that America has advocated time and time again.

Call in UN observers.

Looks like the GOP need them.

Ironic, ain't it :)

Funny, sad, and yes, ironic, but you have a real point.

Think about this: for all those frilly entertainment awards shows - Oscars, Grammys, Golden Globes, etc. - those private organizations have their ballots received, tallied, counted, and the winners named by an objective THIRD PARTY ACCOUNTING FIRM like Price Waterhouse Coopers, Ernst & Young, etc.

And yet, for our local, state, and federal election process, the foxes guard the henhouse. Ridiculous. It's obvious to me that some sorely needed objectivism is required for collection, tallying, and reporting of political election results.

[georgiaboy]

What a sad state of affairs this is.

I cannot imagine being in state GOP party leadership and demanding nothing but the most highly tuned, objective, honest, unimpeachable vote collection, tallying, and reporting process. If we got nothing right as an organization, this would be the one thing we would make certain to accomplish.

To think that the leadership not only isn't requiring such an above board process guaranteeing the integrity of the results, but to think that they purposefully manipulated events/counts to ensure a pre-defined outcome -- think I'll go puke now.

[georgiaboy]

still puking bump

[sailingaway]

The GOP in Maine is just going to strongarm the RP Campaign anyway, which is why Paul is not fighting it publicly. If the count in the end proves a Romney win, they WILL release the data and if the count in the end proves a Ron Paul victory they will STICK to the claim that this is a non-binding beauty contest that is not worth wasting Maine resources to figure out.

Exactly, and making the fuss bigger just makes it more likely buses of Romney folks and party folks will show up in Washington County. The questions, and Ron being the potential alternate winner have been in the media eye, which is not as good as a big bump win, but is at least something. I can see why the campaign is moving on, but also expect Romney's vote to be unusually high in Washington county on Saturday -- particularly given the two colleges which are now going to be on break, which had been in session last week.

[SCOTUSman]

More fraud claims today on South Carolina:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?361382-Flipping-the-vote-against-Ron-Paul-in-South-Carolina

See...fraud claims every vote.

[sailingaway]

More fraud claims today on South Carolina:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?361382-Flipping-the-vote-against-Ron-Paul-in-South-Carolina

See...fraud claims every vote.

some people may, but I look for evidence. If you have evidence, that is different.

[SCOTUSman]

some people may, but I look for evidence. If you have evidence, that is different.

It gives a horrible perception though. And perception is reality.

[kylejack]

Can the courts get involved in this in any way?
No, because a party can use whatever dumb nominating process they want. I suppose the GOP national party could get involved.

[Agorism]

OK where do we most likely get the votes or unreported numbers that would give us a lead from?