View Full Version : Gary Johnson LP debate w/ Gary Johnson
Inny Binny
02-14-2012, 05:08 AM
http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/02/florida-presidential-debate-video/
iamse7en
02-14-2012, 11:18 AM
There is a wide variety of opinion even among libertarians. Interesting. That first guy who gave his opening remarks sounds like a typical politician. I'd prefer any of these guys over any other Republican candidate (do I even need to say except RP?).
ronpaulhemp
02-14-2012, 11:47 AM
Very interesting debate...thanks
gerryb
02-14-2012, 11:51 AM
Gary Johnson is a shill.
The daylight between Paul and Johnson
By Maggie Haberman |
2/8/12 10:52 PM EST
Gary Johnson, plugging away in his bid to become a third-party candidate on the Libertarian line, is laying out the differences between himself and Ron Paul, who has not definitively ruled out a third-party bid of his own and whose following would dovetail with people seeking an alternative, singling out abortion, treating Israel as an "important ally" and believing in marriage equality.
"I support a woman's right to choose," Johnson said this week. "I do believe that Israel is an important ally and will remain so in the future...I do believe in marriage equality."
"I think those are the differences," he said. "For the most part, though, I think we are saying the same things. And I don't think he's going to win the Republican nomination and so being a spokesman for this agenda and these issues, i believe that continuing to talk about them is important."
Where Paul's followers go when the nomination fight is over - and assuming, as many do, that he opts against a third-party run of his own - is an open question. Even with his poorer-than-expected showings in some of the caucus contests, he's the closest thing to a movement candidate this cycle.
Check out the blog
Paid for by Gary Johnson 2012
Contributions or gifts to Gary Johnson 2012 are not deductible as charitable contributions for Federal income tax purposes.
Raudsarw
02-14-2012, 12:01 PM
Don't have much time to watch it, all the people I saw were barely libertarian. They all sound moderate, far more moderate than Ron Paul. 18% flat tax? This is libertarian?! Is there a hardcore libertarian running? A radical abolitionist, not someone who just wants to tinker around the edges a bit?
Gary Johnson: None of those on wall street committed any crimes (Bill Still commentary, GJ video @ 1:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTihklVR52M&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a8ee5eFAAAAAAAAAAA
Romulus
02-14-2012, 12:47 PM
I never understood why Gary feels the need to criticize RP. That's just too bad.. sounds like sour grapes to me. Even though I like a lot of what GJ stands for.
Peace&Freedom
02-14-2012, 12:50 PM
There are several internal preferences within the LP on presidential choices. Some want to go with a principled "Ruwart" like candidate, in light of having gone the mainstream politician route with Barr in '08. Others want to again select the most 'credible' contender like former Gov. Johnson, and others want a more 'moderate' appearing candidate no matter who is selected. Those tendencies are reflected in the LP debate.
Jingles
02-14-2012, 02:31 PM
I know I don't really want Bill Still to get it. I've been leaning towards RJ Harris and I don't know enough about Wrights or that other guy.
I'm okay with Gary Johnson getting is as well. Could someone tell me about Wrights?
enoch150
02-14-2012, 03:54 PM
I haven't followed any of these people (other than watching the Person/Still debate a month ago) But based on this debate alone, I'd rank them like this:
1 R. Lee Wrights (Easily the most Libertarian)
2 R. J. Harris (virtually a Ron Paul clone)
3.5 Carl Person
3.5 Gary Johnson
5 Leroy Saunders
6 Bill Still
The last four advocated one or more very un-libertarian positions.
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 04:02 PM
Gary Johnson: None of those on wall street committed any crimes (Bill Still commentary, GJ video @ 1:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTihklVR52M&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a8ee5eFAAAAAAAAAAA
After watching the debate, Bill Still would be my first choice. He really wants to go after the banksters, more than any of the others.
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Gary Johnson won the Straw Poll afterwards with 70%. Does anyone know how much the others received?
SCOTUSman
02-14-2012, 04:06 PM
Johnson will be the LP nominee. Name recognition...see Bob Barr.
GeorgiaAvenger
02-14-2012, 04:07 PM
Johnson is obviously the best choice because he was a Governor.
Bill Still is maybe the smartest guy, even if he isn't completely right. Good speaker too.
The Saunders guy reminds me of Michael Moore. "The pursuit of greed is killing our country". Also he is ignorant that corporations are merely tax collectors for the government.
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 04:07 PM
I haven't followed any of these people (other than watching the Person/Still debate a month ago) But based on this debate alone, I'd rank them like this:
1 R. Lee Wrights (Easily the most Libertarian)
2 R. J. Harris (virtually a Ron Paul clone)
Both of them were very mainline libertarian, and should have been top choices in a Libertarian Party Straw Poll. I thought that RJ Harris and Bill Still were the best speakers out of the bunch.
Jingles
02-14-2012, 04:12 PM
I haven't followed any of these people (other than watching the Person/Still debate a month ago) But based on this debate alone, I'd rank them like this:
1 R. Lee Wrights (Easily the most Libertarian)
2 R. J. Harris (virtually a Ron Paul clone)
3.5 Carl Person
3.5 Gary Johnson
5 Leroy Saunders
6 Bill Still
The last four advocated one or more very un-libertarian positions.
Yeah I'm watching it now. R. Lee Wrights is pretty great. I know what his positions are, but his rhetoric isn't the best. R. J. Harris is basically Ron Paul. I'm tied with when it comes to both. R. J. Harris would be better at the head of a ticket and Lee Wrights would make a VP.
Gary Johnson is up there as well, but he keeps talking about the FairTax which makes me not want to vote for him. Carl Person kept going off topic and I couldn't really follow him other than to make the judgement that I suppose he agrees with Johnson, Wrights, and Harris on most things.
Bill Still keeps telling me that he hates the gold standard. He might as well keep telling me "DON'T VOTE FOR ME!" Leroy Saunders kind of confused me. It was a mixed bag of saying some okay things and then to other things I was like "Are you a socialist? The problem is greed? Really?"
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 04:16 PM
The Saunders guy reminds me of Michael Moore. "The pursuit of greed is killing our country". Also he is ignorant that corporations are merely tax collectors for the government.
When he started out by saying that most of the "popular" issues (social, racial, collectivist) are just divisive and are essentially a red herring, it was "wow, he's good" time! ;) When he said he really wants to go after the Federal Reserve and Wall St criminals, that was great. Then he said he wanted Jennifer Granholm as his VP, it was "uh oh" time. She isn't a natural born American and would not qualify. So he's a left-libertarian. Then when he said the first thing he wants to do is fly to Israel and make peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians by building a Disneyland, it was too much. Even if he was joking, he doesn't seem to understand the non-intervention principle (or doesn't subscribe to it).
GeorgiaAvenger
02-14-2012, 04:25 PM
Gary Johnson is up there as well, but he keeps talking about the FairTax which makes me not want to vote for him. Carl Person kept going off topic and I couldn't really follow him other than to make the judgement that I suppose he agrees with Johnson, Wrights, and Harris on most things.
I think the FairTax is a great idea....at least compared to what we have now.
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 04:28 PM
Bill Still keeps telling me that he hates the gold standard. He might as well keep telling me "DON'T VOTE FOR ME!"
That freaked me out the first time he said it, but I understand what he means. He's apparently an expert, and has put a lot of thought into it. He said he is not against competing currencies, and gold or silver coin would be great as one of the competitors.
His problem with a US gold standard is that as a limited resource, all of it would end up in the hands of the Oligarchs, with none left for transactions or anyone else. That may always be the problem with a gold standard. Just like a poker game, eventually one player has all of the chips.
Jingles
02-14-2012, 04:34 PM
I think the FairTax is a great idea....at least compared to what we have now.
Well I'm getting the choice between the FairTax and people who want to replace it with nothing. I want someone who would replace it with nothing.
GeorgiaAvenger
02-14-2012, 04:37 PM
Well I'm getting the choice between the FairTax and people who want to replace it with nothing. I want someone who would replace it with nothing.
Two things.
1-The goal of the FairTax is not to raise or cut taxes, just to change the way they are collected.
2-We cannot get rid of taxes and replace it with nothing. We are in much too deep now.
enoch150
02-14-2012, 05:17 PM
Two things.
1-The goal of the FairTax is not to raise or cut taxes, just to change the way they are collected.
2-We cannot get rid of taxes and replace it with nothing. We are in much too deep now.
Eh... Ron Paul wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing.
Whether or not you think we can do it depends on how much you want the government to spend.
The other thing you'll want to consider is: this is the Libertarian Party candidate we're talking about. Libertarians generally believe taxes violate the non-aggression principle.
trey4sports
02-14-2012, 05:21 PM
Eh... Ron Paul wants to get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing.
Whether or not you think we can do it depends on how much you want the government to spend.
philosophically he does, but it's not in his Plan to Restore America because it's not his top priority.
enoch150
02-14-2012, 05:32 PM
philosophically he does, but it's not in his Plan to Restore America because it's not his top priority.
It's not in his three year plan because he doesn't think he can change things enough in three years. But that doesn't mean he won't work toward that goal.
Strictly speaking, Fair Tax advocates don't work toward the goal of getting rid of taxes. They just want to change how those taxes are collected. Ron Paul is notably not a co-sponsor of the Fair Tax.
GeorgiaAvenger
02-14-2012, 05:43 PM
It's not in his three year plan because he doesn't think he can change things enough in three years. But that doesn't mean he won't work toward that goal.
Strictly speaking, Fair Tax advocates don't work toward the goal of getting rid of taxes. They just want to change how those taxes are collected. Ron Paul is notably not a co-sponsor of the Fair Tax.
Exactly, it changes the way taxes are collected, and it is a much better way of collecting taxes.
People will know what they are paying for and will not be deceived. People that visually see the cost are less likely to support big government.
Witholding(income tax deception) and embedded taxation(corporate tax deception) is eliminated.
To be revenue neutral as a starting point, most agree that the rate would be 23% on new products(not a VAT).
But because people are more likely to see and feel the effect of big government, electing the right people to lower taxes would be easier.
AlexMerced
02-14-2012, 06:44 PM
It's not in his three year plan because he doesn't think he can change things enough in three years. But that doesn't mean he won't work toward that goal.
Strictly speaking, Fair Tax advocates don't work toward the goal of getting rid of taxes. They just want to change how those taxes are collected. Ron Paul is notably not a co-sponsor of the Fair Tax.
Well I don't see why you can't be for abolition while at the same time be for bold reforms that are at least moves in the right direction.
Like people want to make it out to be that one can only be gradualist or an abolitionist, but as I see it when there is an opportunity for either I would take it and work for those who work towards either. My goal is liberty, I'll work with anyone towards any solution towards that goal.
enoch150
02-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Well I don't see why you can't be for abolition while at the same time be for bold reforms that are at least moves in the right direction.
Like people want to make it out to be that one can only be gradualist or an abolitionist, but as I see it when there is an opportunity for either I would take it and work for those who work towards either. My goal is liberty, I'll work with anyone towards any solution towards that goal.
But that's the point - the Fair Tax is not a move toward less government. It's a lateral move. It fixes nothing. The problem isn't how the tax is collected. The problem is that the tax IS collected. Candidates who support the Fair Tax are not supporting a pro-liberty position, they're supporting a big government position. The exact same amount of money is confiscated out of the economy after the Fair Tax as under the current system. It's a total waste of time and effort for a non-solution.
Inny Binny
02-14-2012, 07:01 PM
Lee Wrights is obviously the best candidate for radical libertarians. Harris tries way too hard to be Ron Paul, and doesn't seem to know all that much - keeps proselytising the constitution without backing that up with libertarian moral arguments.
Brian4Liberty
02-14-2012, 11:50 PM
Lee Wrights is obviously the best candidate for radical libertarians. Harris tries way too hard to be Ron Paul, and doesn't seem to know all that much - keeps proselytising the constitution without backing that up with libertarian moral arguments.
Agree that Wrights is the purest candidate, although Harris seems pretty pure too.
Austrian Econ Disciple
02-15-2012, 03:41 AM
I would like to see Wrights get the nomination, but we are talking about the LP here. They'll probably nominate GJ and I'll have to write in Ron Paul..I would vote for Wrights and or Harris, but no go on the others.
BuddyRey
02-15-2012, 03:53 AM
Sad to see Mary Ruwart isn't running. :( She'd have my vote for sure.
jtstellar
02-15-2012, 07:48 AM
a huge downgrade from what we have now.. maybe one of you should look toward running, on rp's platform of course
The Goat
02-15-2012, 07:58 AM
So, now we have prof of why the Libertarian party cant get a following. they're trying to be "republican lite" and moderate. not a whole lot libertarian about them IMO.
musicmax
02-15-2012, 08:17 AM
After watching the debate, Bill Still would be my first choice. He really wants to go after the banksters, more than any of the others.
Still wants to replace an out-of-control Fed with an out-of-control Treasury.
musicmax
02-15-2012, 08:18 AM
Gary Johnson: None of those on wall street committed any crimes (Bill Still commentary, GJ video @ 1:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTihklVR52M&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2a8ee5eFAAAAAAAAAAA
Pretty tasteless of Still to use the tricks the GOP used to exclude Johnson from their debates as "evidence" that Johnson isn't viable.
Fredom101
02-15-2012, 09:23 AM
The LP is dead. RP has more libertarianism in his pinky than any of the LP candidates.
Fredom101
02-15-2012, 09:24 AM
Sad to see Mary Ruwart isn't running. :( She'd have my vote for sure.
She's not running BECAUSE she is principled, and the LP is not a party of principle.
Austrian Econ Disciple
02-15-2012, 09:29 AM
She's not running BECAUSE she is principled, and the LP is not a party of principle.
She ran last time and BARELY lost to Barr. That would have never happened 10 years ago. The LP has become increasingly establishment and anti-libertarian. Remember it wasn't too long ago you had great candidates like Harry Browne and Michael Badnarik. Now you get stuck with this shit. It's a shame.
ZenBowman
02-15-2012, 09:58 AM
Well I'm getting the choice between the FairTax and people who want to replace it with nothing. I want someone who would replace it with nothing.
Yeah, even Paul won't be able to replace it with nothing, unless you are okay with a massive increase in debt.
Paul might be the #1 choice, but if not him, at least Gary Johnson has consistently opposed war and empire building as well.
I actually agree more with Johnson than Paul (abortion, etc) , but prefer Paul for now because he has momentum and his record of being consistent is even longer.
Don't diss the people on the same side, we have few enough people opposing empire building as is.
specsaregood
02-15-2012, 10:05 AM
But that's the point - the Fair Tax is not a move toward less government. It's a lateral move. It fixes nothing. The problem isn't how the tax is collected. The problem is that the tax IS collected. Candidates who support the Fair Tax are not supporting a pro-liberty position, they're supporting a big government position. The exact same amount of money is confiscated out of the economy after the Fair Tax as under the current system. It's a total waste of time and effort for a non-solution.
Is not the fairtax nearly completely avoidable, in theory? ie: you bartered, grew/built your own, were primarily self-sufficient and still had a job?
Jingles
02-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Don't diss the people on the same side, we have few enough people opposing empire building as is.
I'm not dissing anyone. I like Gary Johnson as well, but Ideally I want the person who is ideologically close to me as possible. I don't think not supporting the FairTax equates to dissing someone either.
Eww, Gary supports marriage equality now?
mport1
02-15-2012, 05:32 PM
Johnson will be the LP nominee. Name recognition...see Bob Barr.
Maybe not. Bob Barr was a bad mistake. I hope people decide to vote for the most principled candidate, because the LP at this point should really just be about education.
BuddyRey
02-15-2012, 05:33 PM
Eww, Gary supports marriage equality now?
I thought he always had?
I thought he always had?
I don't recall him supporting it. I thought he said it should be up to the states, sorta like Ron Paul's view (although Paul is generally opposed to gay marriage).
Brian4Liberty
02-15-2012, 05:56 PM
Maybe not. Bob Barr was a bad mistake. I hope people decide to vote for the most principled candidate, because the LP at this point should really just be about education.
In case you missed it, there was a Straw Poll after the debate, and Gary Johnson won with 70% of the vote.
heavenlyboy34
02-15-2012, 06:15 PM
But that's the point - the Fair Tax is not a move toward less government. It's a lateral move. It fixes nothing. The problem isn't how the tax is collected. The problem is that the tax IS collected. Candidates who support the Fair Tax are not supporting a pro-liberty position, they're supporting a big government position. The exact same amount of money is confiscated out of the economy after the Fair Tax as under the current system. It's a total waste of time and effort for a non-solution.
This^^
Feeding the Abscess
02-15-2012, 06:35 PM
I don't recall him supporting it. I thought he said it should be up to the states, sorta like Ron Paul's view (although Paul is generally opposed to gay marriage).
RP's stance is that government should get out of the marriage business altogether; that if gay people want to get married, it should be their choice and not government's.
Wrights was easily the best in terms of ideas, but he wasn't really polished.
Harris comes off as Santorum personality (felt like dude was yelling half the time) while reciting Ron Paul talking points without the underpinnings of those talking points. That's cool and all, but find your own voice, man.
GJ is... well, he's GJ. His answer of ending 43% of foreign operations was just weird, too.
matt0611
02-15-2012, 06:41 PM
That freaked me out the first time he said it, but I understand what he means. He's apparently an expert, and has put a lot of thought into it. He said he is not against competing currencies, and gold or silver coin would be great as one of the competitors.
His problem with a US gold standard is that as a limited resource, all of it would end up in the hands of the Oligarchs, with none left for transactions or anyone else. That may always be the problem with a gold standard. Just like a poker game, eventually one player has all of the chips.
How would all the gold end up in the hands of the oligarchs? Do they not want to spend any money ever?
Oil is a limited resource, does it all end up in the hands of the oligarchs? How about steel?
I'm sorry but that Bill Still guy is a monetary crank and I could never vote for a greenbacker.
mport1
02-15-2012, 07:55 PM
In case you missed it, there was a Straw Poll after the debate, and Gary Johnson won with 70% of the vote.
Ugh, yikes. I fell for the Bob Barr trap last time. Not gonna do that again. Hopefully of course RP gets the nomination. If not, I'll still likely write him in.
culvereric
02-15-2012, 08:26 PM
ha....silly statists
RP's stance is that government should get out of the marriage business altogether; that if gay people want to get married, it should be their choice and not government's.
Not exactly. He personally opposes it and thinks it's wrong. He doesn't support a federal amendment, however.
Justinfrom1776
02-15-2012, 11:28 PM
I've been following R.J. Harris on Facebook for a while now and tend to agree with him on issues but haven't delved into him much since I know enough about Ron Paul to know that I won't vote for anyone else.
Brett85
02-15-2012, 11:34 PM
"I support a woman's right to choose," Johnson said this week. "I do believe in marriage equality."
Yuck. I'd rather vote for Romney.
ssjevot
02-16-2012, 12:13 AM
"I support a woman's right to choose," Johnson said this week. "I do believe in marriage equality."
Yuck. I'd rather vote for Romney.
If you're a theocrat there is always the Constitution Party. If you want to force your religious beliefs on other people at least vote for someone who believes in those beliefs and isn't simply pretending to to get votes (Romney was pro-choice and for gay marriage when he was governor).
nasaal
02-16-2012, 12:46 PM
I think I was the only one who liked Saunders. He needs a lot of polishing, and some education on the issues. But I like the general way he thinks about the issues. He needs to tighten up on his grammer, and could again use some education on the issues. But I think his mind is in the right place. I like his attitude of looking at the issues outside the box.
ssjevot
02-16-2012, 06:54 PM
I think I was the only one who liked Saunders. He needs a lot of polishing, and some education on the issues. But I like the general way he thinks about the issues. He needs to tighten up on his grammer, and could again use some education on the issues. But I think his mind is in the right place. I like his attitude of looking at the issues outside the box.
I like RJ Harris the best by far, but I think Saunders is a great candidate he just, as you said, needs to study the issues more. In terms of him living in reality and his thought process though he is spot on.
nasaal
02-16-2012, 07:23 PM
I like RJ Harris the best by far, but I think Saunders is a great candidate he just, as you said, needs to study the issues more. In terms of him living in reality and his thought process though he is spot on.
That and his grammer. Saying they instead of their can get irritating in a political scene. I personally don't care, but it will be impossible to take him seriously. I think he'd make an interesting republican candidate. He isn't a gimmick like Cain was, and he is clever enough to pick up fans. We'll most likely never see it however.
RiseAgainst
02-16-2012, 07:39 PM
Eww, Gary supports marriage equality now?
Nothing like a Gen Pol topic to bring out the bigots.
"I'm all about freedom, except when I don't agree with it."
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