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View Full Version : Do You Think Libertarians Are More Welcomed In Democratic Party?




GopBlackList
02-12-2012, 04:37 PM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?

NidStyles
02-12-2012, 04:57 PM
The core of the Democratic party is all about Welfare, and taxation. The only issue that the current entrenched GOP leaders have against the Libertarians is the whole foreign intervention issue. It's only been since the rise of the Neo-Cons that the foreign intervention issue has been there. The Neo-Cons want to run around the world bombing everyone. Get past that, and there's no reason why the GOP wouldn't go full Libertarian.

swissaustrian
02-12-2012, 05:04 PM
Start watching at 0:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_ty-HmjREk

bluesc
02-12-2012, 05:07 PM
Start watching at 0:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_ty-HmjREk

Don't let Rick Santorum get his hands on that.

BuddyRey
02-12-2012, 05:08 PM
No political party will ever "welcome" a philosophy whose very core tenet is that they should all be put out of business.

That's not to say we can't have a great deal of success using the political process...but it does mean that we're probably not going to find a "ready-made" liberty-friendly party to roll out the red carpet for us. We're going to have to infiltrate one or even both major parties, and do a whole lot of tactical paradigm shifting and regime changing.

trey4sports
02-12-2012, 05:09 PM
nope.

Keith and stuff
02-12-2012, 05:19 PM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?

As far as New Hampshire goes, libertarians are extremely welcomed in the Republican Party. 90 of the New Hampshire State Reps are libertarians. In some of the State Rep special elections, the only Republican that runs is a libertarian. That happened twice last year and is the case in the special election that happens this month in Manchester.

The most powerful group in the New Hampshire Republican Party when it comes to State House issues is the House Republican Alliance. The organization is made up of conservative and libertarian State Reps that are Republican. 1 of the 2 co-chairs is a libertarian. The other really powerful group in the New Hampshire House is the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. As far as I know, all of the leadership is either Republican, Libertarian or Undeclared. The NHLA is a 100% volunteer organization that rates bills, rates legislators, advocates for legislation and donates money to pro-liberty organizations.

The New Hampshire Democrat Party let 1 libertarian get elected a couple times as a State Rep in Manchester but since then libertarians have only been able to win local positions running as Democrats in New Hampshire. Whenever they run for State Rep, lots of Democrats (sometimes even the state party) work to make sure they lose the primaries.

Do you live somewhere where the GOP doesn't 100% welcome libertarians?

Jingles
02-12-2012, 05:53 PM
The democratic party isn't very welcoming to libertarians these days. The Republican party at least pretends to stand for limited government. You aren't really going to get many cheer from the democrats these days for wanting to abolish the IRS, believe in the free market, or etc... The majority of democrats that are anti-war don't really oppose war on the same grounds we do. They aren't really opposed to the spending as much as they are just anti-war. They wold't mind the same level of spending, but rather than war increase foreign aid massively around the world.

narrowphoenix
02-12-2012, 05:54 PM
Democrat = Republican, they are same, only different talking points! Haven't you been paying attention?!?!?!?

angelatc
02-12-2012, 06:07 PM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?

Ron Paul says we should be in the GOP. Deal with it.

GopBlackList
02-12-2012, 06:14 PM
As far as New Hampshire goes, libertarians are extremely welcomed in the Republican Party. 90 of the New Hampshire State Reps are libertarians. In some of the State Rep special elections, the only Republican that runs is a libertarian. That happened twice last year and is the case in the special election that happens this month in Manchester.

The most powerful group in the New Hampshire Republican Party when it comes to State House issues is the House Republican Alliance. The organization is made up of conservative and libertarian State Reps that are Republican. 1 of the 2 co-chairs is a libertarian. The other really powerful group in the New Hampshire House is the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. As far as I know, all of the leadership is either Republican, Libertarian or Undeclared. The NHLA is a 100% volunteer organization that rates bills, rates legislators, advocates for legislation and donates money to pro-liberty organizations.

The New Hampshire Democrat Party let 1 libertarian get elected a couple times as a State Rep in Manchester but since then libertarians have only been able to win local positions running as Democrats in New Hampshire. Whenever they run for State Rep, lots of Democrats (sometimes even the state party) work to make sure they lose the primaries.

Do you live somewhere where the GOP doesn't 100% welcome libertarians?

Well it doesn't come as a surprise since NH is the Live Free Die Free state. I am sure other places where the Republican party is entrenched in the bible belt it might be difficult for libertarians to be accepted. You also have to consider that some not all Republicans consider their party an all Caucasian club and may look down upon anyone who is outside of their circle. For example, Hispanics or Muslims might have a better chance joining the Democratic party than the Republican party.

GopBlackList
02-12-2012, 06:16 PM
Ron Paul says we should be in the GOP. Deal with it.

Ron Paul is not a partisan politician.

Keith and stuff
02-12-2012, 06:16 PM
Democrat = Republican, they are same, only different talking points! Haven't you been paying attention?!?!?!?

Ron Paul did get 2nd in both the New Hampshire Republican Primary and the New Hampshire Democratic Primary but the percentages were way different. Ron Paul received 23% of the GOP Primary and won around 1/4 of the towns. He only received 4% of the Democratic Primary (it had to be write-in) so I wouldn't say they are the same. At least not everywhere. Perhaps they are the same where you live.

pcosmar
02-12-2012, 06:19 PM
in a word

NO

The Democrat party is anti-Liberty.
They are as a rule pro-socialist and pro-communist.
Libertarians would find very little common ground.

Individualists even less.

GopBlackList
02-12-2012, 06:23 PM
in a word

NO

The Democrat party is anti-Liberty.
They are as a rule pro-socialist and pro-communist.
Libertarians would find very little common ground.

Individualists even less.

It easy for us to say that but some of us have friends who are "minorities" and may have a difficult time joining the Republican party. Let's not forget that Libertarians share the same point of view when it comes to social issues with Democrats.

Keith and stuff
02-12-2012, 06:33 PM
You also have to consider that some not all Republicans consider their party an all Caucasian club and may look down upon anyone who is outside of their circle. For example, Hispanics or Muslims might have a better chance joining the Democratic party than the Republican party.

Maybe in some places. People tend to be caucasian in NH. John E. Sununu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sununu ) was a US Rep and US Senator from NH and his family has strong Palestinian ancestry with some members coming from Lebanon. Though, John H. Sununu, his father was born in Cuba. John H. Sununu was a governor of NH and was recently the head of the state party, even though his mother was born in El Salvador. National origin seems to make no difference when it comes to being welcomed by a political party in NH.

If you like Republican ideals of smaller government, lower taxes and more responsibility but are not welcomed into your local GOP, I recommend trying to change it, moving, or not working directly with a political party as superior alternatives to becoming a Democratic Party player. When I lived in TN, where the GOP is much less freedom oriented than the NH GOP, the GOP was still much more inclined towards liberty than the Democratic Party.

However, you certainly know more about your personal situation than I do. If you really think it's the best thing to do, go for it :)

Jingles
02-12-2012, 06:34 PM
Let's not forget that Libertarians share the same point of view when it comes to social issues with Democrats.

Not exactly. Today's liberals are just like the conservatives except on the opposite end of the issue. Regardless of personal views we don't want to use the force of the state to try and push our views on society. We just want the state out of these social issues in general, but you can still be personally socially conservative or personally socially liberal. It's really just more about the role of the state.

This is why I don't like the fiscally conservative/socially liberal view of libertarianism. It's more of a rejection of the initiation of violence/force and then applying that principle consistently. I'm neither socially liberal/socially conservative personally. I'm more, "do as you please and leave me alone".

Liberty74
02-12-2012, 07:11 PM
Not a freaking chance. The Democrat's solutions to our problems and their agenda is contrary to our movement of freedom, liberty, and limited government. They are all about CONTROL period. Control the people! Control the market! Control businesses! Control the schools! Control the food! Piss on the Constitution!

Elwar
02-12-2012, 07:16 PM
The Libertarian Party does not hardly welcome libertarians anymore.

heavenlyboy34
02-12-2012, 07:27 PM
Democrat = Republican, they are same, only different talking points! Haven't you been paying attention?!?!?!?
winner!

Liberty74
02-12-2012, 07:28 PM
Let's not forget that Libertarians share the same point of view when it comes to social issues with Democrats.

Not so on most issues - religion, schools, civil liberties, marriage, family, drug laws, gun rights, censorship, etc.

As Jingles pointed out, there needs to be a line drawn when people use the words fiscal conservative or social liberal. Does that apply personally? OR Does that apply from the view point of government? There is a huge difference. Democrats are liberal fascists IMO which is the opposite of being a liberal privately. Libertarians are real liberals because they are open to people being people with one rule - you don't harm or steal from another. Know the difference. Rick Santorum would be considered a conservative fascist because he wants to use the federal government to shape society according to his social ends.

kylejack
02-12-2012, 07:32 PM
The only issue that the current entrenched GOP leaders have against the Libertarians is the whole foreign intervention issue.
Surely you jest. How about their views on The Drug War, abortion, spending.

NewRightLibertarian
02-12-2012, 07:34 PM
We gotta work to keep making in rounds in the Republican Party. They're weak and vulnerable right now, ripe for the taking.

MozoVote
02-12-2012, 07:40 PM
The original 1970s Libertarians were a splinter group from the Republican party in the first place. They can be glued back on, so to speak. They don't mesh well with the Democratic party.

Bosco Warden
02-12-2012, 07:44 PM
Good read. I also want to comment on the Democrats are only welfare hand out people, that is not true. Also the "welfare" crew dont even vote. They are a non issue and used as a wedge issue.

Guest Post: Liberals and Libertarians Need Each Other

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/06/guest-post-liberals-and-libertarians-need-each-other.html

Tudo
02-12-2012, 08:11 PM
The gop has been about empire since it's very first nominee and president.

Bosco Warden
02-12-2012, 08:39 PM
The gop has been about empire since it's very first nominee and president.

Are you referring to Lincoln?

The empire is coming to a close now, find you some nice BLM land and prepare to defend it. lol

Moo2400
02-12-2012, 10:05 PM
Fiscal issues seem to take precedence over most other issues in both parties, and in that regard, libertarians fit in better with republicans than they do with democrats. You'll have a number of a republicans say they love Ron Paul on fiscal issues, but are afraid of his foreign policy. With democrats, it would be more or less reversed. On that basis alone, libertarians would probably find the republican party more open to them.

It should also be mentioned that democrats appear to be much more ideologically rigid than the republican party. They seem to place more emphasis on conforming to the party line and values for both their members and politicians - note the primary back in 2008 where Hillary Clinton and Obama were more or less the same ideologically, it was just a matter of whether you wanted a female president or a black president. The republicans, by contrast, are much more open ideologically - they don't get called "the big tent" for nothing.

kylejack
02-12-2012, 10:13 PM
It should also be mentioned that democrats appear to be much more ideologically rigid than the republican party. They seem to place more emphasis on conforming to the party line and values for both their members and politicians - note the primary back in 2008 where Hillary Clinton and Obama were more or less the same ideologically, it was just a matter of whether you wanted a female president or a black president.
Not really. Obama and Clinton are about as close to each other on the issues as Romney and Gingrich.

Inny Binny
02-12-2012, 10:21 PM
The core of the Democratic party is all about Welfare, and taxation. The only issue that the current entrenched GOP leaders have against the Libertarians is the whole foreign intervention issue. It's only been since the rise of the Neo-Cons that the foreign intervention issue has been there. The Neo-Cons want to run around the world bombing everyone. Get past that, and there's no reason why the GOP wouldn't go full Libertarian.

Nonsense. How on earth is the GOP even remotely close to libertarian ideal on anything? They throw a few words around like 'capitalism' and 'small government' and then proceed to spend more than the democrats. And are you saying you honestly believe the GOP is libertarian on social issues?

There was a poll on this forum a few weeks ago about who people thought would be the most dangerous. The republican candidates far outstripped Obama. So why on earth do libertarians automatically flock to the republican party? There is truly no reason for this - and it is unfortunate, because it leads to the perception that libertarians are just selfish republicans who want to smoke pot. Either we should try and infiltrate both parties, or we should work with the Libertarian Party.

Keith and stuff
02-12-2012, 10:42 PM
Nonsense. How on earth is the GOP even remotely close to libertarian ideal on anything? They throw a few words around like 'capitalism' and 'small government' and then proceed to spend more than the democrats. And are you saying you honestly believe the GOP is libertarian on social issues?


Dude, where do you live? Where I live, there were 30 candidates on the NH Republican Primary ballot. My county has 23 towns/cities. Mitt Romney won 13 of them, Ron Paul won 8 of them (that is 35% of the towns/cities) and Huntsman won 2 of them. The GOP in NH as a whole is more libertarian than it is in my county. That is correct, the three most moderate candidates were the only candidates to win districts where I live. Santorum and his radical views didn't even get 10% of the vote in NH. Rick Perry that ran commercials about Christianity only got 0.7% of the vote in NH and left the race because of how we shut him down. In NH, the GOP is libertarian on lots and lots of social issues. Guns, knifes, automobile registration, seat belts for adults, motorcycle helmets, marijuana decriminalization, medical marijuana, alcohol deregulation, recording the police and so on... As far as I know, all of the Republicans that sponsored and voted for the bill last year to get the government out of marriage were Republicans.

As for why the libertarians flock to the GOP, at least in NH, it is because the GOP loves libertarians. It backs libertarian candidates with money and volunteers. The libertarian State Reps currently have more influence over the Republicans in the NH House than any other group (the very religious, the liberals, the moderates. the pro-union folks) even though there are currently only around 90 State Reps in NH that are libertarian Republicans.

GopBlackList
02-12-2012, 11:00 PM
Maybe in some places. People tend to be caucasian in NH. John E. Sununu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sununu ) was a US Rep and US Senator from NH and his family has strong Palestinian ancestry with some members coming from Lebanon. Though, John H. Sununu, his father was born in Cuba. John H. Sununu was a governor of NH and was recently the head of the state party, even though his mother was born in El Salvador. National origin seems to make no difference when it comes to being welcomed by a political party in NH.

If you like Republican ideals of smaller government, lower taxes and more responsibility but are not welcomed into your local GOP, I recommend trying to change it, moving, or not working directly with a political party as superior alternatives to becoming a Democratic Party player. When I lived in TN, where the GOP is much less freedom oriented than the NH GOP, the GOP was still much more inclined towards liberty than the Democratic Party.

However, you certainly know more about your personal situation than I do. If you really think it's the best thing to do, go for it :)

Well Sununu is a Palestinian Christian, same with Justin Amash. But let's say you have friends who are into the libertarian view points but are of say Hispanic, gay, or Muslim persuasion. Chances are they are not going to be Republicans or much less get accepted (illegal immgration scapegoating, religious bigotry, homophobia, and islamophobia) even if they view points they agree upon. Where do they go? obvisouly the Democratic party since they are open to minorities.

Keith and stuff
02-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Well Sununu is a Palestinian Christian, same with Justin Amash. But let's say you have friends who are into the libertarian view points but are of say Hispanic, gay, or Muslim persuasion. Chances are they are not going to be Republicans or much less get accepted (illegal immgration scapegoating, religious bigotry, homophobia, and islamophobia) even if they view points they agree upon. Where do they go? obvisouly the Democratic party since they are open to minorities.

They are Christians but my point is they are hispanics. John H. Sununu (the former governor and GOP head) was born in Cuba and his mother was born in El Salvador.

The most popular Republican State Rep in Manchester (the largest city in NH), Steve Vaillancourt, (a Ron Paul endorser in 2008 and 2012) is gay. NH is very receptive to gays. After all, it has more gays per capita than any other state. The former head of the Democratic Party is gay.

According to a blog post by Rep. Vaillincourt,

According to Voter Consumer Research (VCR), which surveyed 712 likely NH voters, “64 percent believe the law allowing gay couples to marry in New Hampshire should stay in place. Only 31 percent believe the law should be repealed.

Not only that, but 51 percent feel strongly that the law should stay in place.

It’s not as if people haven’t been following the issue. VCR finds very high awareness (“fairly universal”) of 94 percent.

Even among likely Republican primary voters, support for leaving the law is at 47 percent (47 percent also favor repeal). Not only that but VCR found gay marriage is not a major voting issue even among Republicans. When asked how they would react if their state legislator voted against repeal, 60 percent said they would either support that legislator or the issue “would make no difference in their vote”. http://nhinsider.squarespace.com/rep-steve-vaillancourt/2011/12/28/inside-republican-poll-shows-strong-support-for-gay-marriage.html

There is also a hispanic State Rep in Manchester, Carlos Gonzalez. By the way, the co-chair of the Republican House Alliance, State Rep. Marilinda Garcia of Salem, is a latino that I helped elect (I spent around 5 days helping her over a couple months time.) The other co-chair of the Republican House Alliance is a libertarian Free State Project participant. The Republican House Alliance, along with the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance (a strictly pro-liberty organization) greatly influence how people (especially Republicans) in the NH House vote.

I honestly don't know any Muslims that have run for office in NH. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews aren't very common in New Hampshire. NH, along with VT, are the least religious states in the US and most of the people that run are either Christian or non-religious.
http://prorev.com/2009/12/new-hampshire-vermont-least-religious.html

Uriah
02-12-2012, 11:33 PM
It depends on what is most important to you. Party or principle? It depends on where you live and what the constituents of that locale want from their elected officials. Political parties are vehicles. They are not the goal. They help you reach your goal. Many liberty minded activists, austrians, and libertarians are moving into the Republican party because of Ron Paul and with good reason. But running as a Democrat offers an individual to emphasize a sound foreign policy, civil liberties, health freedom, and ending the drug war with little to no opposition.

In general Democrats like to hear about ending the wars, bringing the troops home, alternative medicine, less regulation over renewable energies, keeping the internet free, gay marriage, ending the Patriot Act, industrial hemp, etc. Fiscal responsibility is also an issue that is important to Democrats but needs to be well worded in order to not alienate oneself.

What political party can propel the liberty message forward in your community? Whichever party that may be, is the one you ought to get involved in.

ConCap
02-13-2012, 07:49 AM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?


-5reps

mczerone
02-13-2012, 08:29 AM
-5reps

It was a valid question. I don't think "we" should abandon anything, but I do think that some of our up-and-coming politicos should explore the democratic party as a more natural fit for their liberty message and their local political environment. We shouldn't FOCUS on the GOP anymore or any less than we focus on the Dems or even the LP.

The GOP establishment has repeatedly dejected and mocked us, and I'm not going to tell anyone that it's better to stick it out with them or to jump ship. You work with the GOP if you want - and I'll support you. If the OP works with the Dems, I'd support him too.

SilentBull
02-13-2012, 08:34 AM
No way.

Jack Bauer
02-13-2012, 09:04 AM
No.

They are outright statists.

lib3rtarian
02-13-2012, 09:16 AM
I am what someone would call a minority (South East Asian) and I really feel out of place in the GOP demographic wise. I am getting involved in the party for the sake of pushing the party more libertarian, but the majority of the folks look at me like I am a space alien. 99% of the folks I see in the GOP here are white Christians and they are all social conservatives, pro-War on Drugs, pro-life, gay-hating, Muslim-hating, big-time Bible-thumpers.

I would be more at home with the Democratic party demographically, but I can't stand their socialist economic policies.

I might be even more home with the Libertarian party, but I don't think they stand a fighting chance against the 2-party monopoly.

I am in a big fix.

AuH20
02-13-2012, 09:16 AM
This thread makes me Lulz. Since FDR permanently transformed the democratic party into it's present, dispicable form it has been utter trash. Move along.

bolil
02-13-2012, 09:33 AM
No appreciable difference exists between the Democratic and Republican parties. Just the illusion of choice, as George Carlin would say. Ron Paul and the campaign know the score and can be trusted to make the choices that are most beneficial to our cause.

Keith and stuff
02-13-2012, 09:57 AM
The GOP establishment has repeatedly dejected and mocked us, and I'm not going to tell anyone that it's better to stick it out with them or to jump ship. You work with the GOP if you want - and I'll support you. If the OP works with the Dems, I'd support him too.

Where do you live? The party establishment, for the most part, love pro-liberty people where I live. I remember in 2008 when FOX wouldn't let Ron Paul in the final NH debate, the head of the NH GOP was outraged and called for including Ron Paul in the debate. The former governor of NH became a Friend of the Free State Project and welcomed FSPers to NH. The NH Sen. Majority Leader came out in favor of FSPers. The NH Speaker of the House is very friendly to libertarians and FSPers. The co-chair of the Republican House Alliance is a libertarian.

Of course pro-liberty people should be involved in the Democratic Party if they want to but to say that the GOP is very welcoming sounds strange to someone that lives in NH.

cajuncocoa
02-13-2012, 10:02 AM
Q: Do You Think Libertarians Are More Welcomed In Democratic Party?
A: No.

jtstellar
02-13-2012, 10:26 AM
if we're polling 10~15% nationally (and one of the latest poll by reuters, 21%) we have 30 million+ people.. we can be our own men.. are we not enough? how insecure do you have to be..?

edit: also.. if you missed the recent episode of glenn greenwald constantly getting flamed over him calling out liberals on their hypocrisy when it comes to obama's foreign policy and violation of civil liberties--if even he's having a hard time, what makes you expect a warm welcome.

RM918
02-13-2012, 10:30 AM
The only difference between a corrupt neolib and a corrupt neocon is that, facing a libertarian, while the neocon would jump on you for being a terrorist-loving traitor, the neolib will jump on you for being a poor-hating racist.

The neolib will also then insist you are a horrible human being even for supporting policies he supposedly supports, because you're doing it for the 'wrong reasons'.

Matthew5
02-13-2012, 10:33 AM
In my personal experience, the Democrats have been just as intolerant of libertarianism as the GOP. At least Dems are more open about their love for big government. But I didn't find a home in either the GOP or Democratic party. I quickly realized there's very little differences in the two parties.

Boss
02-13-2012, 10:41 AM
After just watching Obama's Budget Proposal Speech, I'm confident we are much more welcome in the Republican Party.

oyarde
02-13-2012, 11:15 AM
No , in fact , being a Libertarian in dem establishment areas would probably be similar to being a Leper.

GopBlackList
02-13-2012, 11:35 AM
It was a valid question. I don't think "we" should abandon anything, but I do think that some of our up-and-coming politicos should explore the democratic party as a more natural fit for their liberty message and their local political environment. We shouldn't FOCUS on the GOP anymore or any less than we focus on the Dems or even the LP.

The GOP establishment has repeatedly dejected and mocked us, and I'm not going to tell anyone that it's better to stick it out with them or to jump ship. You work with the GOP if you want - and I'll support you. If the OP works with the Dems, I'd support him too.

THIS


I am what someone would call a minority (South East Asian) and I really feel out of place in the GOP demographic wise. I am getting involved in the party for the sake of pushing the party more libertarian, but the majority of the folks look at me like I am a space alien. 99% of the folks I see in the GOP here are white Christians and they are all social conservatives, pro-War on Drugs, pro-life, gay-hating, Muslim-hating, big-time Bible-thumpers.

I would be more at home with the Democratic party demographically, but I can't stand their socialist economic policies.

I might be even more home with the Libertarian party, but I don't think they stand a fighting chance against the 2-party monopoly.

I am in a big fix.

This is an example of what I am trying to say. People take note.


Where do you live? The party establishment, for the most part, love pro-liberty people where I live. I remember in 2008 when FOX wouldn't let Ron Paul in the final NH debate, the head of the NH GOP was outraged and called for including Ron Paul in the debate. The former governor of NH became a Friend of the Free State Project and welcomed FSPers to NH. The NH Sen. Majority Leader came out in favor of FSPers. The NH Speaker of the House is very friendly to libertarians and FSPers. The co-chair of the Republican House Alliance is a libertarian.

Of course pro-liberty people should be involved in the Democratic Party if they want to but to say that the GOP is very welcoming sounds strange to someone that lives in NH.

Keith, we get your point, NH is libertarian friendly. It is one of a few states that are accepting but the majority of us don't live in those states.


After just watching Obama's Budget Proposal Speech, I'm confident we are much more welcome in the Republican Party.

I don't think Obama respresent most Democrats.

oyarde
02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
THIS



This is an example of what I am trying to say. People take note.



Keith, we get your point, NH is libertarian friendly. It is one of a few states that are accepting but the majority of us don't live in those states.



I don't think Obama respresent most Democrats. What do you think ? 20% ?

Athan
02-13-2012, 01:41 PM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?
No, I do not believe we would be welcomed in that party either. What's worse is that the superdelegate system will neutralize any gains we would make in the party. All democrats and republicans want is our vote and support however they do not want to give us a voice. We should vote third party and/or vote for just Ron Paul supporters who are actually running as republicans. All others just vote third party or against the incumbent.

lester1/2jr
02-13-2012, 04:16 PM
less so. from my experience

cajuncocoa
02-13-2012, 04:19 PM
less so. from my experienceAgreed....as from mine.

ConCap
02-14-2012, 07:12 AM
The Libertarian Party does not hardly welcome libertarians anymore.


Only the ones that more Libertines than Libertarians.

ConCap
02-14-2012, 07:21 AM
Not so on most issues - religion, schools, civil liberties, marriage, family, drug laws, gun rights, censorship, etc.

As Jingles pointed out, there needs to be a line drawn when people use the words fiscal conservative or social liberal. Does that apply personally? OR Does that apply from the view point of government? There is a huge difference. Democrats are liberal fascists IMO which is the opposite of being a liberal privately. Libertarians are real liberals because they are open to people being people with one rule - you don't harm or steal from another. Know the difference. Rick Santorum would be considered a conservative fascist because he wants to use the federal government to shape society according to his social ends.


The point is.
You can be Social Conservative all the way to a Socialist, it’s no ones business.

JUST NOT ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.

There needs to be a COMPLEATE SEPERATION of Social and Federal.

Paul Or Nothing II
02-14-2012, 12:16 PM
I am what someone would call a minority (South East Asian) and I really feel out of place in the GOP demographic wise. I am getting involved in the party for the sake of pushing the party more libertarian, but the majority of the folks look at me like I am a space alien. 99% of the folks I see in the GOP here are white Christians and they are all social conservatives, pro-War on Drugs, pro-life, gay-hating, Muslim-hating, big-time Bible-thumpers.

I would be more at home with the Democratic party demographically, but I can't stand their socialist economic policies.

I might be even more home with the Libertarian party, but I don't think they stand a fighting chance against the 2-party monopoly.

I am in a big fix.

Democratic party is terrible, Repubs at least pay lip-service to a lot of conservative-libertarian ideas which allows us to claim Republicanism; imagine being a democrat who's anti-welfare & therefore "anti-poor people" :rolleyes:

So you're saying there are absolute ZERO Ron Paul supporters in your locality? :confused: I don't believe that there'd have to be a couple (or more) out there somewhere, look on the facebook or whatever, they must be out there so even if you find a couple of RP-supporters then I'm sure you'll feel less "out of place" :)

NidStyles
02-14-2012, 12:32 PM
Nonsense. How on earth is the GOP even remotely close to libertarian ideal on anything? They throw a few words around like 'capitalism' and 'small government' and then proceed to spend more than the democrats. And are you saying you honestly believe the GOP is libertarian on social issues?

There was a poll on this forum a few weeks ago about who people thought would be the most dangerous. The republican candidates far outstripped Obama. So why on earth do libertarians automatically flock to the republican party? There is truly no reason for this - and it is unfortunate, because it leads to the perception that libertarians are just selfish republicans who want to smoke pot. Either we should try and infiltrate both parties, or we should work with the Libertarian Party.

You are speaking purely of the Neo-Con positions that have hi-jacked the GOP. My statement still stands.

ConCap
02-20-2012, 05:41 PM
It was a valid question. I don't think "we" should abandon anything, but I do think that some of our up-and-coming politicos should explore the democratic party as a more natural fit for their liberty message and their local political environment. We shouldn't FOCUS on the GOP anymore or any less than we focus on the Dems or even the LP.

The GOP establishment has repeatedly dejected and mocked us, and I'm not going to tell anyone that it's better to stick it out with them or to jump ship. You work with the GOP if you want - and I'll support you. If the OP works with the Dems, I'd support him too.


THIS WAKO GAVE ME A REAL -1rep.

I gave him -5 phony reps for his suggesting you hook up with Dem's

May be the one or two Jeffersonian Democrat's that may be still living.

The Free Hornet
02-20-2012, 05:56 PM
THIS WAK JOB GAVE ME A REAL -1rep.

I gave him -5 phony reps for his sugesting you hook up with Dem's

May be the one or two Jeffersonian Democrat's that may be still living.

My impression of the thread's original question: how totally naive. Maybe I am the naive one.

Perhaps the original poster should have asked, "Do Libertarians Realize They Are Unwelcome in the Republican Party?".

You can spin libertarian ideas into a Democratic party framework if you so choose. It is convoluted, but the same applies on the other side of the aisle. Libertarians in the Republican party are like black people in the Democratic party: taken for granted. If you don't withold your support, you'll never get anywhere. Upon witholding that support, it is your choice as to where to go (independent, Libertarian Party (official), or Democratic party).

Jonathanm
02-21-2012, 07:56 AM
I completely disagree with socialism at the federal level, but I'm not opposed to welfare programs at the state level if they want to go that route. In this sense, I could see someone running as a 'Ron Paul' democrat; pro-welfare, but not at the federal level.

I've found that a lot of democrats actually really like Ron Paul. Watch the Bill Maher episode where he had Ron Paul on, back in 2007 I believe -- Paul got pretty heavy cheering from the crowd, and Bill Maher's audience tends to be rather liberal. Bill Maher actually really likes Paul, too, though of course he doesn't agree with him on everything. All but one of my democrat friends are hoping Paul wins the republican nominee, because they aren't really all that happy with President Obama. Two of them actually commented that, were Paul to win, they'd seriously consider voting for him. And note that these are liberals, not moderate/independents.

I'd also like to point out that we're pretty out of place in the current Republican party. Argue all you want that we're the true Republicans (I agree), but we have to realize that the true Republicans aren't the majority anymore.

Personally, I think Santorum or Gingrich would be a far worse disaster than Obama. Not that Obama has been good, but at least Obama can show restraint in some departments. Were Santorum president, we'd surely have nuked iran, and contraceptives would probably be a Schedule I drug. Were Gingrich president we'd probably be in basically the same place as we are now, except with moon bases and executions for pot smokers.

Personally, I think both parties are equally wrong. At least Democrats are honest about being big government, though. A lot of modern Republicans talk the talk, but when push comes to shove they vote for the drug war, federal marriage amendment, patriot act, NDAA, SOPA, and pro-empire building. Can someone please tell me how any of those things are pro-libertarian?

Liberty brings people together. Even democrats.

GopBlackList
04-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Was looking at this old thread and thought I resurrect it in the post 2012 elections. Totally forgot about it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FsIiOxlKVI



Democratic party is terrible, Repubs at least pay lip-service to a lot of conservative-libertarian ideas which allows us to claim Republicanism; imagine being a democrat who's anti-welfare & therefore "anti-poor people" :rolleyes:

So you're saying there are absolute ZERO Ron Paul supporters in your locality? :confused: I don't believe that there'd have to be a couple (or more) out there somewhere, look on the facebook or whatever, they must be out there so even if you find a couple of RP-supporters then I'm sure you'll feel less "out of place" :)


My impression of the thread's original question: how totally naive. Maybe I am the naive one.

Perhaps the original poster should have asked, "Do Libertarians Realize They Are Unwelcome in the Republican Party?".

You can spin libertarian ideas into a Democratic party framework if you so choose. It is convoluted, but the same applies on the other side of the aisle. Libertarians in the Republican party are like black people in the Democratic party: taken for granted. If you don't withold your support, you'll never get anywhere. Upon witholding that support, it is your choice as to where to go (independent, Libertarian Party (official), or Democratic party).


I completely disagree with socialism at the federal level, but I'm not opposed to welfare programs at the state level if they want to go that route. In this sense, I could see someone running as a 'Ron Paul' democrat; pro-welfare, but not at the federal level.

I've found that a lot of democrats actually really like Ron Paul. Watch the Bill Maher episode where he had Ron Paul on, back in 2007 I believe -- Paul got pretty heavy cheering from the crowd, and Bill Maher's audience tends to be rather liberal. Bill Maher actually really likes Paul, too, though of course he doesn't agree with him on everything. All but one of my democrat friends are hoping Paul wins the republican nominee, because they aren't really all that happy with President Obama. Two of them actually commented that, were Paul to win, they'd seriously consider voting for him. And note that these are liberals, not moderate/independents.

I'd also like to point out that we're pretty out of place in the current Republican party. Argue all you want that we're the true Republicans (I agree), but we have to realize that the true Republicans aren't the majority anymore.

Personally, I think Santorum or Gingrich would be a far worse disaster than Obama. Not that Obama has been good, but at least Obama can show restraint in some departments. Were Santorum president, we'd surely have nuked iran, and contraceptives would probably be a Schedule I drug. Were Gingrich president we'd probably be in basically the same place as we are now, except with moon bases and executions for pot smokers.

Personally, I think both parties are equally wrong. At least Democrats are honest about being big government, though. A lot of modern Republicans talk the talk, but when push comes to shove they vote for the drug war, federal marriage amendment, patriot act, NDAA, SOPA, and pro-empire building. Can someone please tell me how any of those things are pro-libertarian?

Liberty brings people together. Even democrats.

rings true..or TRUE DAT!

Christian Liberty
04-27-2013, 07:43 PM
It easy for us to say that but some of us have friends who are "minorities" and may have a difficult time joining the Republican party. Let's not forget that Libertarians share the same point of view when it comes to social issues with Democrats.

Not really. Abortion is kind of an up for debate issue, but there are a LOT of libertarians who agree with Ron Paul on the issue and are pro-life. Gay marriage is also tricky because the libertarian view is complete separation of marriage and state, and until we get there, what exactly to do RIGHT NOW is tricky. Civil unions are kind of a no-brainer to me, even though I personally don't agree with their lifestyle, but gay marriage is trickier. Justin Raimondo is a libertarian homosexual who's against it. I don't personally think the government should be redefining terms like this, and I'm not the only libertarian who thinks this.

Drugs, prostitution, those types of freedom issues... Dems are generally against them. They're generally fails on the Patriot Act or TSA and stuff. They're generally against gun rights.


Not exactly. Today's liberals are just like the conservatives except on the opposite end of the issue. Regardless of personal views we don't want to use the force of the state to try and push our views on society. We just want the state out of these social issues in general, but you can still be personally socially conservative or personally socially liberal. It's really just more about the role of the state.

This is why I don't like the fiscally conservative/socially liberal view of libertarianism. It's more of a rejection of the initiation of violence/force and then applying that principle consistently. I'm neither socially liberal/socially conservative personally. I'm more, "do as you please and leave me alone".

Yeah, basically.

Surely you jest. How about their views on The Drug War, abortion, spending.

I agree with you on the other stuff, but you can't just casually throw abortion in there. Some of us really do believe abortion is murder and therefore a violation of the NAP. Ron Paul agrees with us. That one isn't even settled among libertarians, even though the LP stupidly pretends like it is.

Nonsense. How on earth is the GOP even remotely close to libertarian ideal on anything? They throw a few words around like 'capitalism' and 'small government' and then proceed to spend more than the democrats. And are you saying you honestly believe the GOP is libertarian on social issues?

There was a poll on this forum a few weeks ago about who people thought would be the most dangerous. The republican candidates far outstripped Obama. So why on earth do libertarians automatically flock to the republican party? There is truly no reason for this - and it is unfortunate, because it leads to the perception that libertarians are just selfish republicans who want to smoke pot. Either we should try and infiltrate both parties, or we should work with the Libertarian Party.

Obama may well have been better than any of the Republicans except for Ron Paul and Gary Johnson (Both of whom were MILLIONS of times better than Obama, and Ron Paul was in turn a million times better than Gary Johnson) if only because his foreign policy was less jingoistic, but he's still terrible.

As a TACTICAL matter, however, Republican rhetoric is more inclined towards limited government, so its easier to use genuine libertarian rhetoric in that party. What the GOP SAYS is closer to that, even though what they DO is not.

It depends on what is most important to you. Party or principle? It depends on where you live and what the constituents of that locale want from their elected officials. Political parties are vehicles. They are not the goal. They help you reach your goal. Many liberty minded activists, austrians, and libertarians are moving into the Republican party because of Ron Paul and with good reason. But running as a Democrat offers an individual to emphasize a sound foreign policy, civil liberties, health freedom, and ending the drug war with little to no opposition.

In general Democrats like to hear about ending the wars, bringing the troops home, alternative medicine, less regulation over renewable energies, keeping the internet free, gay marriage, ending the Patriot Act, industrial hemp, etc. Fiscal responsibility is also an issue that is important to Democrats but needs to be well worded in order to not alienate oneself.

What political party can propel the liberty message forward in your community? Whichever party that may be, is the one you ought to get involved in.

Democrats aren't always high on civil liberties and anti-war positions either. It all depends.

My impression of the thread's original question: how totally naive. Maybe I am the naive one.

Perhaps the original poster should have asked, "Do Libertarians Realize They Are Unwelcome in the Republican Party?".

You can spin libertarian ideas into a Democratic party framework if you so choose. It is convoluted, but the same applies on the other side of the aisle. Libertarians in the Republican party are like black people in the Democratic party: taken for granted. If you don't withold your support, you'll never get anywhere. Upon witholding that support, it is your choice as to where to go (independent, Libertarian Party (official), or Democratic party).

More importantly, just don't vote for bad GOP candidates, whatever party you're in.

Brett85
04-27-2013, 07:53 PM
Surely you jest. How about their views on The Drug War, abortion, spending.

A lot of libertarians are opposed to legal abortion.

Christian Liberty
04-27-2013, 07:57 PM
A lot of libertarians are opposed to legal abortion.

Yeah, I think its amazing how many people just casually make this "Mistake." I think any real libertarian would at least respect the pro-life movement, if they haven't even considered it at all they probably don't really understand the NAP. Genuine libertarians usually don't emphasize this issue either, ESPECIALLY on the pro-choice side, there are a LOT of other freedoms even if this one was a legitimate one.

WhistlinDave
04-27-2013, 08:09 PM
The irony of this is, Obama has not been good on civil liberties at all. Renewed the Patriot Act, signed the NDAA, and completely broke his campaign promises on the war on drugs. And let's not even get started on his misuse of drones, and all the innocent people killed by them. And most Democrats seem to turn a blind eye to it all. They go on pretending they're all for personal Liberty while cheering on their leader who is one of the worst presidents ever in terms of defending civil liberties. He talks the talk, but doesn't walk--he slithers in a puddle of mud.

I wish I could take control of the airwaves for a while and convince all Liberty minded people, especially all the Independents who don't even bother to vote out of sheer disgust--to suddenly jump onboard with the Libertarian Party. The main reason a third party will never be viable is because too many people believe a third party can never be viable. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy. But if all the Independents realized at once how many of them there are, and they all started voting against the two big parties, the whole game would change dramatically. (Wishful thinking. I know.)

Anti Federalist
04-27-2013, 08:12 PM
Meh, they will be no more welcome in the democrat party than they are in the GOP.

The parties represent people, and most people hate freedom and want nothing to do with it.

Christian Liberty
04-27-2013, 08:15 PM
The irony of this is, Obama has not been good on civil liberties at all. Renewed the Patriot Act, signed the NDAA, and completely broke his campaign promises on the war on drugs. And let's not even get started on his misuse of drones, and all the innocent people killed by them. And most Democrats seem to turn a blind eye to it all. They go on pretending they're all for personal Liberty while cheering on their leader who is one of the worst presidents ever in terms of defending civil liberties. He talks the talk, but doesn't walk--he slithers in a puddle of mud.

I wish I could take control of the airwaves for a while and convince all Liberty minded people, especially all the Independents who don't even bother to vote out of sheer disgust--to suddenly jump onboard with the Libertarian Party. The main reason a third party will never be viable is because too many people believe a third party can never be viable. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy. But if all the Independents realized at once how many of them there are, and they all started voting against the two big parties, the whole game would change dramatically. (Wishful thinking. I know.)

I think you're right. And I should note that me saying Obama may have been less bad than some of the others doesn't mean I would have voted for him. If I could have voted I would have voted for Gary Johnson in the LP, and of course for Ron Paul in the GOP primary.

That said, I do honestly think Obama is showing a little bit of restraint on foreign policy when compared to what Romney or especially Gingrich or Santorum would be doing right now. He's still terrible, yes, but I think the GOP would be worse. Civil liberties, by contrast, is pretty bad across the board.

I'll be voting for third party unless Rand Paul or someone else of similar or better quality is running in one of the major parties (This probably means Rand Paul but I just felt like pointing out in the theoretical even that Judge Nap or something won the GOP nomination I would still vote for him.)

DamianTV
04-27-2013, 08:27 PM
Meh, they will be no more welcome in the democrat party than they are in the GOP.

The parties represent people, and most people hate freedom and want nothing to do with it.

and the parties hate freedom even more than the people. And the powers behind the politicians hate freedom even more than the politicians they buy.

WhistlinDave
04-27-2013, 11:03 PM
Meh, they will be no more welcome in the democrat party than they are in the GOP.

The parties represent people, and most people hate freedom and want nothing to do with it.


and the parties hate freedom even more than the people. And the powers behind the politicians hate freedom even more than the politicians they buy.


Well if we didn't have the government to tell us not to use heroin, we would all probably be using heroin right now. :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIXYnP5uCuc

sailingaway
04-27-2013, 11:22 PM
If you feel more comfortable there and want to work there you should. We should be in all parties, where that party can win, they really aren't different much at the establishment level. However, most of our organization is in the GOP, I certainly see that growing.

Origanalist
04-27-2013, 11:45 PM
If you feel more comfortable there and want to work there you should. We should be in all parties, where that party can win, they really aren't different much at the establishment level. However, most of our organization is in the GOP, I certainly see that growing.

Can't really argue with that, but the concepts of liberty might be more forcefully resisted in the dem side.

Weston White
04-27-2013, 11:52 PM
Ron Paul did get 2nd in both the New Hampshire Republican Primary and the New Hampshire Democratic Primary but the percentages were way different. Ron Paul received 23% of the GOP Primary and won around 1/4 of the towns. He only received 4% of the Democratic Primary (it had to be write-in) so I wouldn't say they are the same. At least not everywhere. Perhaps they are the same where you live.

Generally, Dems vote only for those with a "D" next to their name, and visa versa. Though I fail to see how a party's voters equate to either parties politicians? Voters are not exactly purvey to party politics, to what takes place behind the scenes. etc. They in large, are left to digest only the sound bites selectively thrown at them by their favorite media outlets, that is namely propaganda.

sailingaway
04-28-2013, 12:14 AM
Can't really argue with that, but the concepts of liberty might be more forcefully resisted in the dem side.

The oppression part, not being able to spend your own earnings as you want and insane nanny state regulations, yeah, but a lot of Dems are very upset about NDAA, drones, the police state, the neverending wars, etc. It will depend on what is most important to them, but Ron has supporters who were Dems and love Ron for his positions on those civil liberties and war issues, but might fit in with the Democratic party -- which is great. Some states it is going to be hard for a Republican to win. Better to get a 'better Democrat' at least.

BamaAla
04-28-2013, 12:24 AM
The oppression part, not being able to spend your own earnings as you want and insane nanny state regulations, yeah, but a lot of Dems are very upset about NDAA, drones, the police state, the neverending wars, etc. It will depend on what is most important to them, but Ron has supporters who were Dems and love Ron for his positions on those civil liberties and war issues, but might fit in with the Democratic party -- which is great. Some states it is going to be hard for a Republican to win. Better to get a 'better Democrat' at least.

I haven't met any Democrats upset about any of that. They may give some lip service or say they are a little disappointed, but as soon as they can, they take back to trashing Republicans. I swear the only issue that I ever hear Democrats talk about is taxing the "rich" and snatching guns.

Origanalist
04-28-2013, 12:32 AM
The oppression part, not being able to spend your own earnings as you want and insane nanny state regulations, yeah, but a lot of Dems are very upset about NDAA, drones, the police state, the neverending wars, etc. It will depend on what is most important to them, but Ron has supporters who were Dems and love Ron for his positions on those civil liberties and war issues, but might fit in with the Democratic party -- which is great. Some states it is going to be hard for a Republican to win. Better to get a 'better Democrat' at least.

I know there is a segment that are disillusioned, just as there was with Bush and his non-interventionalist rhetoric ;

"GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH: I'm not so sure the role of the United States is to go around the world and say this is the way it's got to be. We can help. And maybe it's just our difference in government, the way we view government. I mean I want to empower people. I want to help people help themselves, not have government tell people what to do. I just don't think it's the role of the United States to walk into a country and say, we do it this way, so should you."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec00/for-policy_10-12.html

Antischism
04-28-2013, 12:35 AM
Isn't the Green Party to Democrats what the Libertarian Party is to Republicans? Granted, there is a left-leaning side of American libertarianism.

I think if we're to make any inroads on the left, we would start by acknowledging what we agree on, and working to achieve that. The more liberty-minded people we can get on both sides the better. While economics and social issues may differ, we can all agree on ending both the wars abroad and war at home, that being the war on drugs. That alone would be life-changing and an incredible victory. People like Cynthia McKinney are my allies, not enemies. The real enemies are the Bushes and Obamas of the world. That's who I want to eliminate, not people who share my biggest goals in common, primarily ending the U.S.'s status as "policemen of the world."

Origanalist
04-28-2013, 12:43 AM
Isn't the Green Party to Democrats what the Libertarian Party is to Republicans? Granted, there is a left-leaning side of American libertarianism.

I think if we're to make any inroads on the left, we would start by acknowledging what we agree on, and working to achieve that. The more liberty-minded people we can get on both sides the better. While economics and social issues may differ, we can all agree on ending both the wars abroad and war at home, that being the war on drugs. That alone would be life-changing and an incredible victory. People like Cynthia McKinney are my allies, not enemies. The real enemies are the Bushes and Obamas of the world. That's who I want to eliminate, not people who share my biggest goals in common, primarily ending the U.S.'s status as "policemen of the world."

It would be nice to find common cause, but they insist on regulating us.

Dogsoldier
04-28-2013, 01:38 AM
Lets face it...The main reason that libertarians are on the GOP side is because they give lip service for the 2nd amendment. They never do anything to advance it but they hold the line of scrimmage. We as libertarians know that once they take guns away the game is over. George washington said ""Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth"

The Northbreather
04-28-2013, 02:53 AM
I just say that personally its been easier to turn some of my democrat friends on to the liberty cause than some of my establishment GOP friends.

I think its because the my dem friends are strong pro-peace (as am I) and just needed to see how liberty is the path.

My GOP friends are much more "hail to the chief no matter what" types. They understand libertarian concepts for a minute but slide back into the old us versus them toxic dichotomy as soon as FOX comes back on.

compromise
04-28-2013, 04:50 AM
The left-libertarians have really come out to roost.


Well it doesn't come as a surprise since NH is the Live Free Die Free state. I am sure other places where the Republican party is entrenched in the bible belt it might be difficult for libertarians to be accepted. You also have to consider that some not all Republicans consider their party an all Caucasian club and may look down upon anyone who is outside of their circle. For example, Hispanics or Muslims might have a better chance joining the Democratic party than the Republican party.

Raul Labrador...Ted Cruz...the GOP is by no means anti-Hispanic. Roughly 1/3 of Hispanics currently vote Republican and far more would consider doing so if the right candidate came by. Muslims, maybe, but they don't make up very much of the overall population.


It easy for us to say that but some of us have friends who are "minorities" and may have a difficult time joining the Republican party. Let's not forget that Libertarians share the same point of view when it comes to social issues with Democrats.

I am a minority (Indian-American) and I have no problem with the Republican Party. I think you're stuck in the past. Libertarians do not agree with the Democrats' use of the federal government to push secular and culturally liberal values.


Nonsense. How on earth is the GOP even remotely close to libertarian ideal on anything? They throw a few words around like 'capitalism' and 'small government' and then proceed to spend more than the democrats. And are you saying you honestly believe the GOP is libertarian on social issues?

There was a poll on this forum a few weeks ago about who people thought would be the most dangerous. The republican candidates far outstripped Obama. So why on earth do libertarians automatically flock to the republican party? There is truly no reason for this - and it is unfortunate, because it leads to the perception that libertarians are just selfish republicans who want to smoke pot. Either we should try and infiltrate both parties, or we should work with the Libertarian Party.

Can I have a link to that poll? Seems like an exaggeration.


The oppression part, not being able to spend your own earnings as you want and insane nanny state regulations, yeah, but a lot of Dems are very upset about NDAA, drones, the police state, the neverending wars, etc. It will depend on what is most important to them, but Ron has supporters who were Dems and love Ron for his positions on those civil liberties and war issues, but might fit in with the Democratic party -- which is great. Some states it is going to be hard for a Republican to win. Better to get a 'better Democrat' at least.

A lot of Dems aren't upset. http://hotair.com/archives/2012/02/08/oh-my-majorities-of-liberal-democrats-now-support-drone-strikes-keeping-gitmo-open/
To be honest, at the moment the GOP grassroots are more concerned with civil liberties and avoiding humanitarian intervention (like Libya) than the Dems, as they are in opposition.

tod evans
04-28-2013, 04:59 AM
They understand libertarian concepts for a minute but slide back into the old us versus them toxic dichotomy as soon as FOX comes back on.

Do yourself a favor and "Just say no" to MSM for 90 days...

Unplug or whatever it takes from TV, listen to albums instead of radio..

See how you feel.

KrokHead
04-28-2013, 06:05 AM
what do you think? abscond from the Republican party and get into the Democratic party?

... No way! Democrats consider Libertarians the extreme underground Republican movement. Usually they get lumped in as Tea-Partiers. I remember New York magazine describian Paul Ryan as "Ayn Randian".

Never will happen.

MisfitToy
04-28-2013, 06:58 AM
I haven't met any Democrats upset about any of that. They may give some lip service or say they are a little disappointed, but as soon as they can, they take back to trashing Republicans. I swear the only issue that I ever hear Democrats talk about is taxing the "rich" and snatching guns.
I concur. If you point out anything that barry does wrong, they come right back with what bush jr did to justify it or they just become silent about the issue and then point out something that bush jr did anyway. In a way it's a political gridlock. I've met Republicans who hated dubbya but I have yet to meet a Democrat who disagrees with barry.

speciallyblend
04-28-2013, 09:51 AM
No, for effect, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvwzPADqtxU<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvwzPADqtxU">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvwzPADqtxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvwzPADqtxU)

The Northbreather
04-28-2013, 10:53 AM
Do yourself a favor and "Just say no" to MSM for 90 days...

Unplug or whatever it takes from TV, listen to albums instead of radio..

See how you feel.

Are you saying I should try this or that this is what you want me to say to people?

I haven't had television for years now, I have television sets that I use as monitors for computers.

I went to school for media an am pretty well versed.

heavenlyboy34
04-28-2013, 11:01 AM
... No way! Democrats consider Libertarians the extreme underground Republican movement. Usually they get lumped in as Tea-Partiers. I remember New York magazine describian Paul Ryan as "Ayn Randian".

Never will happen.
Meh. Depends on who you ask. I knew a dem who was a RP fan in '08. Naomi Wolf has in recent years warmed up to Lew Rockwell and libertarianism. You can't make these sort of broad generalizations except WRT to the party apparatchiki.

GopBlackList
04-28-2013, 04:57 PM
Not really. Abortion is kind of an up for debate issue, but there are a LOT of libertarians who agree with Ron Paul on the issue and are pro-life. Gay marriage is also tricky because the libertarian view is complete separation of marriage and state, and until we get there, what exactly to do RIGHT NOW is tricky. Civil unions are kind of a no-brainer to me, even though I personally don't agree with their lifestyle, but gay marriage is trickier. Justin Raimondo is a libertarian homosexual who's against it. I don't personally think the government should be redefining terms like this, and I'm not the only libertarian who thinks this.

Drugs, prostitution, those types of freedom issues... Dems are generally against them. They're generally fails on the Patriot Act or TSA and stuff. They're generally against gun rights.



Yeah, basically.


I agree with you on the other stuff, but you can't just casually throw abortion in there. Some of us really do believe abortion is murder and therefore a violation of the NAP. Ron Paul agrees with us. That one isn't even settled among libertarians, even though the LP stupidly pretends like it is.


Obama may well have been better than any of the Republicans except for Ron Paul and Gary Johnson (Both of whom were MILLIONS of times better than Obama, and Ron Paul was in turn a million times better than Gary Johnson) if only because his foreign policy was less jingoistic, but he's still terrible.

As a TACTICAL matter, however, Republican rhetoric is more inclined towards limited government, so its easier to use genuine libertarian rhetoric in that party. What the GOP SAYS is closer to that, even though what they DO is not.


Democrats aren't always high on civil liberties and anti-war positions either. It all depends.


More importantly, just don't vote for bad GOP candidates, whatever party you're in.

Abortions are going to be irrelevant as soon as advances in birth control become available. The real quesiton is when does life begins and that varies from person to person. I personally don't believe life begins at conception.


A lot of libertarians are opposed to legal abortion.

if you're talking about the right leaning kind yes, but the more moderate or left libertarian believe it is a woman's choice and do not define life at conception.


... No way! Democrats consider Libertarians the extreme underground Republican movement. Usually they get lumped in as Tea-Partiers. I remember New York magazine describian Paul Ryan as "Ayn Randian".

Never will happen.

Paul Ryan a libertarian? lol. gimme a break.


Meh. Depends on who you ask. I knew a dem who was a RP fan in '08. Naomi Wolf has in recent years warmed up to Lew Rockwell and libertarianism. You can't make these sort of broad generalizations except WRT to the party apparatchiki.

Camile Pagilia as well