If Ron Paul wins Maine...

[Fredom101]

Is the Free State Project in NH then a joke? :confused:

[FSP-Rebel]

Ya, big difference between a caucus than a primary.

[sailingaway]

We need to work SO he wins Maine. The establishment is quietly pulling out all the stops to stop him including setting up brand new caucuses for tomorrow with no realistic notice in areas where they have nodes of people who can dominate them.

[Mister Grieves]

New Hampshire is a bad joke, regardless of how well Paul does in Maine.

[fletcher]

The choice of NH doomed the FSP from the being.

[SludgeFactory]

We need to work SO he wins Maine. The establishment is quietly pulling out all the stops to stop him including setting up brand new caucuses for tomorrow with no realistic notice in areas where they have nodes of people who can dominate them.

What I don't get is how they can do stuff like this?

[mwkaufman]

New Hampshire is a bad joke, regardless of how well Paul does in Maine.

Ron Paul got 4.3% of the population to vote for him in New Hampshire. That's more than 2.5 times better than any other state so far. Paul could've won Iowa with 1.1% of the population, so it's ridiculous to disparage New Hampshire, when they're the most fervently pro-Paul state to cast their ballots so far.

[CTRattlesnake]

NH is a much better place for the FSP than a place like SC or Florida

[Orgoonian]

I bet there are a lot of "freestaters"in Maine right now helping to GOTV.
What is the point of this thread?

[Mister Grieves]

Ron Paul got 4.3% of the population to vote for him in New Hampshire. That's more than 2.5 times better than any other state so far. Paul could've won Iowa with 1.1% of the population, so it's ridiculous to disparage New Hampshire, when they're the most fervently pro-Paul state to cast their ballots so far.Crunch the numbers all you want, but they chose John McCain and Mitt Romney over Ron Paul in consecutive primaries. There's good, informed people everywhere, but there is nothing special about New Hampshire and the whole idea of them being anymore of a 'Free State' than anywhere else is BS.

[69360]

I bet there are a lot of "freestaters"in Maine right now helping to GOTV.
What is the point of this thread?

Maybe they are contemplating the safest place to live after this election. I know I am. It's going to be NH or ME for me.

[FSP-Rebel]

Crunch the numbers all you want, but they chose John McCain and Mitt Romney over Ron Paul in consecutive primaries. There's good, informed people everywhere, but there is nothing special about New Hampshire and the whole idea of them being anymore of a 'Free State' than anywhere else is BS.
Fact is, the FSP is still in its infancy despite over 1000 movers and plenty of natives being recharged into activism because of them. The goal is to get 20k signers and then get them moved w/i a five year window. If you look at what's going on in the state, it's postulated that only a few thousand more will exponentially make the state freer. You'll never have a truly free society with the state still being involved. However, making it as free as possible is the ultimate goal. For instance, making the maximum role of the state to be the protection of life, liberty and property.

At least 12 movers have become current state reps and scores more that are highly rated by the NH Liberty Alliance. All told you have a libertarian block that consists of >25% of the state house plus a decent minority in the senate. As time goes by, the gains become stronger plus more activists engaging in political and civil dis activism as well as more testifiers of bills in the state house. While the property tax varies by town, there's no state income nor sales tax. Some of the best gun laws, no seat belt nor helmet laws nor mandatory vehicle insurance. Google the "101 reasons to move to NH" and check out the full listings.

Anyways, let's win ME!

[Hook]

Crunch the numbers all you want, but they chose John McCain and Mitt Romney over Ron Paul in consecutive primaries. There's good, informed people everywhere, but there is nothing special about New Hampshire and the whole idea of them being anymore of a 'Free State' than anywhere else is BS.

You are only talking about the GOP though. In the general elections, the Libertarian Party candidate always gets the highest percentage of votes in NH than any other state.

[ds21089]

If Ron Paul wins Maine I will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gsz9YgZBx1o#t=25s

[rp2012win]

Paul has been in TX the past 3 days because he feels it gives him the best chance to win. I don't know how, but I'll trust him for now.

[Revolution9]

NH is a much better place for the FSP than a place like SC or Florida

Too frikkin' cold. Go for a free county project somewhere in the south. I am in N Ga mtns and no one bothers me, guns are going off all the time and the weather is awesome. About 100 days a year the wind is over 5 mph..rarely above 15...never been a destructive tornado. The woods are full of deer and turkey, the river full of trout and bass, the lake has 10 pound walleyes.

Rev9

[mikeforliberty]

Crunch the numbers all you want, but they chose John McCain and Mitt Romney over Ron Paul in consecutive primaries. There's good, informed people everywhere, but there is nothing special about New Hampshire and the whole idea of them being anymore of a 'Free State' than anywhere else is BS.

Only 1000 people have made the move so far. Instead of defaming them lets move and change it.

[jllundqu]

Anyone giving odds on a Maine win for RP?

*Popcorn*

[cdc482]

If Ron Paul wins Maine....no clothes party in the streets! Everywhere, Earth

[XxNeXuSxX]

NH-

NO SALES TAX

NO INCOME TAX

WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE ARGUING?

[ItsTime]

The FSP helped get the Republicans a SUPER MAJORITY in the house and senate in New Hampshire and they worked hard repealing as many laws as they could. Now the GOP establishment is shooting themselves in the foot by going after gay marriage.

[Darthbrooklyn]

Anyone giving odds on a Maine win for RP?

*Popcorn*

Intrade.com has Paul at 25% for Maine..

[jllundqu]

Intrade.com has Paul at 25% for Maine..

Yousa!

That is less than favorable... :eek:

*Spits out popcorn*
*Picks up whiskey bottle*

[TravisforPaul]

Why is Intrade always brought up on these forums? Isn't this just placing bets and essentially gambling? Hey I bet one of you Ron Paul will win Maine, and if you bet he wont, guess what he now has a 50% chance to win! :rolleyes:

[Keith and stuff]

Maybe they are contemplating the safest place to live after this election. I know I am. It's going to be NH or ME for me.

Why on earth would you consider ME? ME isn't at all a free place. Liberty loving people move from ME to NH, not the other way around. There is some element of libertarianism in the ME GOP. There is some element of liberalism in the ME Democratic Party. Because of those elements, ME does OK on some social issues.

Compare that to NH. There are more elements of libertarianism in the NH GOP, by far, than in any other state. How else do you explain that around 90 members of the NH House are libertarians? How else do you explain that more legislatures in NH endorsed Ron Paul than all other states combined? How else do you explain that NH cut it's state budget last year by more than any other state has cut a state budget since the WWII era? How else do you explain that far for pro-liberty laws passed in NH last year than any other state? How else do you explain that NH had been rated the freest state for years now?

BTW, Ron Paul has done far better in NH this election than in any other state, ever. Nothing from 2008 comes even close to how well Ron Paul did in NH this year.

Highest percentage of total population voting for RP, by state:
1. NH: 4.3%
2. SC: 1.7%
3. Iowa: 0.9%
4. FL: 0.6%
5. MO: 0.5%
6. MN: 0.3%
7. NV: 0.2%
8. CO: 0.2%

[jllundqu]

Why is Intrade always brought up on these forums? Isn't this just placing bets and essentially gambling? Hey I bet one of you Ron Paul will win Maine, and if you bet he wont, guess what he now has a 50% chance to win! :rolleyes:

I'm not betting, in fact I'm doing all I can to ensure a win, but I do want to know what people think our chances of a 1st place finish are.

[69360]

Anyone giving odds on a Maine win for RP?

*Popcorn*

50/50 realistically. I have a bad feeling Romney is going to fly into Portland today and pick up a lot of votes in the largest caucus.



NH-

NO SALES TAX

NO INCOME TAX

WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE ARGUING?

+ no gun laws, no seat belt laws and no car insurance.


Why on earth would you consider ME? ME isn't at all a free place. Liberty loving people move from ME to NH, not the other way around. There is some element of libertarianism in the ME GOP. There is some selectmen of liberalism in the ME Democratic Party. Because of those elements, ME does OK on some social issues.

Compare that to NH. There are more elements of libertarianism in the NH GOP, by far, than in any other state. How else do you explain that around 90 members of the NH House are libertarians? How else do you explain that more legislatures in NH endorsed Ron Paul than all other states combined? How else do you explain that NH cut it's state budget last year by more than any other state has cut a state budget since the WWII era? How else do you explain that far for pro-liberty laws passed in NH last year than any other state? How else do you explain that NH had been rated the freest state for years now?

BTW, Ron Paul has done far better in NH this election than in any other state, ever. Nothing from 2008 comes even close to how well Ron Paul did in NH this year.

Highest percentage of total population voting for RP, by state:
1. NH: 4.3%
2. SC: 1.7%
3. Iowa: 0.9%
4. FL: 0.6%
5. MO: 0.5%
6. MN: 0.3%
7. NV: 0.2%
8. CO: 0.2%

I've spent a lot of time in both. I like Maine from midcoast up better than NH, just personal preference I feel comfortable there. NH has better laws of course.

[Darthbrooklyn]

Why is Intrade always brought up on these forums? Isn't this just placing bets and essentially gambling? Hey I bet one of you Ron Paul will win Maine, and if you bet he wont, guess what he now has a 50% chance to win! :rolleyes:

Im just posting what Intrades prediction is.. Take it easy tiger..

[JamesButabi]

The Free State Project moving technically hasn't even launched yet. Everything that has been accomplished there has been done with early movers (which just eclipsed 1,000) who have decided not to wait for 20,000 signers.

If anything the FSP project has been verified as an idea that will work and deserves more attention. If noticeable changes are occurring with 1,000 people, 20,000 people would surely yield some extremely significant changes. I think once 2012 is finished, if Ron Paul does not end up on top, the FSP is something this forum and RP supporters in general should seriously consider spearheading. It would be a great transition of activism and show big results.

[Keith and stuff]

Ya, big difference between a caucus than a primary.

That is certainly true. Primaries tend to be much more fair and easy to understand. They tend to attract a lot of people. Caucuses tend to be more confusing and hard to understand. Sometimes, as is the case in ME, hardly anyone votes in caucuses.

In 2008, Ron Paul's best primary was in NH. http://freestateproject.org/community/essays/2008_nh_primary_impact

If ME had a primary in 2012 Mitt Romney would take 1st place by a wide margin and Ron Paul would likely take either 2nd, 3rd or 4th place. To say otherwise means that you don't understand ME politics. However, Ron Paul doing well in a Republican primary isn't the most important thing in the world for liberty in that state. If Ron Paul does well in a leftest leaning state like MN or ME, that's great for the GOP but the state still leans leftest. If Ron Paul does well in a freedom leaning state like NH or CO, that is much more meaningful as a way to measure the possible effectiveness of lots of liberty lovers moving their. Unfortunately, Ron Paul took 2nd out of 30 candidates in NH but only 4th out of 4 candidates in CO. That sucks for CO but there is still no possible way to deny that CO is a lot more free than either MN or ME.

[DanConway]

That is certainly true. Primaries tend to be much more fair and easy to understand. They tend to attract a lot of people. Caucuses tend to be more confusing and hard to understand. Sometimes, as is the case in ME, hardly anyone votes in caucuses.

In 2008, Ron Paul's best primary was in NH. http://freestateproject.org/community/essays/2008_nh_primary_impact

If ME had a primary in 2012 Mitt Romney would take 1st place by a wide margin and Ron Paul would likely take either 2nd, 3rd or 4th place. To say otherwise means that you don't understand ME politics. However, Ron Paul doing well in a Republican primary isn't the most important thing in the world for liberty in that state. If Ron Paul does well in a leftest leaning state like MN or ME, that's great for the GOP but the state still leans leftest. If Ron Paul does well in a freedom leaning state like NH or CO, that is much more meaningful as a way to measure the possible effectiveness of lots of liberty lovers moving their. Unfortunately, Ron Paul took 2nd out of 30 candidates in NH but only 4th out of 4 candidates in CO. That sucks for CO but there is still no possible way to deny that CO is a lot more free than either MN or ME.

2nd of 30 is disingenuous, considering only about 6 were serious.

[alucard13mmfmj]

wasnt Maine ignored by the media back in 2008?

[Keith and stuff]

2nd of 30 is disingenuous, considering only about 6 were serious.

I don't think it is disingenuous at all. It is the reality. Many of the others were campaigning. They were in debates, on TV and radio. They were talked about.
There were also 14 official candidates and 3 notable write-ins in the New Hampshire Democratic Party. Of those 17 candidates, Ron Paul took 2nd.

Ron Paul got over 59,000 votes in NH. Obama only got 49,000 votes in NH. Ron Paul got 17% more votes in NH than Obama did in NH.

What about Ron Paul's very strong showing in the New Hampshire Primary giving Ron Paul a 70% ( http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24873.msg273745#msg273745 ) boost in the South Carolina Primary polls and a 25% ( http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.php?563-Ron-Paul%92s-Success-in-New-Hampshire-Boosted-his-Support-by-25-Nationally ) boost nationally?

[tbone717]

Too frikkin' cold. Go for a free county project somewhere in the south. I am in N Ga mtns and no one bothers me, guns are going off all the time and the weather is awesome. About 100 days a year the wind is over 5 mph..rarely above 15...never been a destructive tornado. The woods are full of deer and turkey, the river full of trout and bass, the lake has 10 pound walleyes.

Rev9

My car is packed and ready to go, just PM me with your address and we'll be there to settle in LOL

[tbone717]

wasnt Maine ignored by the media back in 2008?

Usually it is. The drawn out process, the low turnout and (to some degree) it's geographic isolation fdoesn't make it much of an exciting news story. Add to that the results are coming in on a weekend, which tends to be a slow news day.

[DanConway]

I don't think it is disingenuous at all. It is the reality. Many of the others were campaigning. They were in debates, on TV and radio. They were talked about.
There were also 14 official candidates and 3 notable write-ins in the New Hampshire Democratic Party. Of those 17 candidates, Ron Paul took 2nd.

Ron Paul got over 59,000 votes in NH. Obama only got 49,000 votes in NH. Ron Paul got 17% more votes in NH than Obama did in NH.

What about Ron Paul's very strong showing in the New Hampshire Primary giving Ron Paul a 70% ( http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24873.msg273745#msg273745 ) boost in the South Carolina Primary polls and a 25% ( http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.php?563-Ron-Paul%92s-Success-in-New-Hampshire-Boosted-his-Support-by-25-Nationally ) boost nationally?

If someone has dropped out, they're not a serious candidate anymore. If someone has only filed in New Hampshire, they're not serious. If they're named Vermin Supreme, they're not serious.

It's irrelevant and meaningless that Obama, running uncontested (so no other serious candidates), didn't have many people bother to vote for him.

This is like saying he was 3rd in the Presidential race in 1988, as if that means anything more than that he got .5% of the vote behind two serious candidates. I thought we were past that.

But yes, Paul did have a strong showing in New Hampshire. Now he needs a stronger showing in Maine.

[rp2012win]

Usually it is. The drawn out process, the low turnout and (to some degree) it's geographic isolation fdoesn't make it much of an exciting news story. Add to that the results are coming in on a weekend, which tends to be a slow news day.that is true but maine is now more important because romney is desperate for a win and he has increased the stakes by campaigning there today and tomorrow

[Keith and stuff]

If they're named Vermin Supreme, they're not serious.

It's irrelevant and meaningless that Obama, running uncontested (so no other serious candidates), didn't have many people bother to vote for him.

This is like saying he was 3rd in the Presidential race in 1988, as if that means anything more than that he got .5% of the vote behind two serious candidates. I thought we were past that.

But yes, Paul did have a strong showing in New Hampshire. Now he needs a stronger showing in Maine.

Except of the 14 official candidates and 3 notable write-ins in the New Hampshire Democratic Primary, Ron Paul got 2nd with 4% of the vote.

I agree that Paul did by far better in NH than he did anywhere else. I also agree that he needs to get a higher percentage of the few 1000 people that vote in ME. Unfortunately, I don't even know if winning ME will give Ron Paul a 25% nationally like Ron Paul got from his success in NH. I think Ron Paul really needs another national boost like he got from NH. Unfortunately, that has happened because of Ron Paul's success in any other state yet and I doub't ME will do it. Maybe if Ron Paul wins 50% of the vote in ME that could happen.

[tbone717]

that is true but maine is now more important because romney is desperate for a win and he has increased the stakes by campaigning there today and tomorrow

Oh I agree it is important to win. Just don'e expect fireworks to go off if he does. This won't get the coverage that the other contests have gotten. It just isn't made for TV like IA, NH and SC is.

[rp2012win]

Oh I agree it is important to win. Just don'e expect fireworks to go off if he does. This won't get the coverage that the other contests have gotten. It just isn't made for TV like IA, NH and SC is.anyone who doesn't think it's a big deal, wait till paul gets 2nd and then you'll find out how big a deal it was.

[Keith and stuff]

Oh I agree it is important to win. Just don'e expect fireworks to go off if he does. This won't get the coverage that the other contests have gotten. It just isn't made for TV like IA, NH and SC is.

I agree that in general, ME isn't considered that important to the media when it comes to primaries/caucuses. Sure, NH is the most important. Sure, the ME results were partly ignored last time around. Sure, ME has the most disorganized and confusing caucus system. Sure, the results may change after they are announced on Saturday because the voting will not finish on Saturday.

However, both Romney and Ron Paul are trying hard to win in ME. It is very important to both of those campaigns. Media figures are saying it is very crucial to both of those campaign. A 3rd place finish by either campaign in ME would be devastating. A 2nd place finish by either campaign (unless it was a very close match-up) would also hurt both campaigns in the eyes of the media. Also, think about donations, if Paul wins this his supporters are encouraged and his donations go up. If Paul loses, watch for lots of people on this forum to go crazy.

[tbone717]

anyone who doesn't think it's a big deal, wait till paul gets 2nd and then you'll find out how big a deal it was.

Oh if Romney wins it will get coverage because it will be seen as a comeback. It's more of a news story that way. If Paul wins it won't get the coverage. Part of it is a media blackout and part of it is the fact that Paul is not part of the narrative. I'd venture to guess that if Newt were to win, it wouldn't get the coverage either because he really isn't as much of a part of the story as he was two weeks ago. If Paul would have won NV, MN and/or CO, Maine would be a bigger story for Paul. Bias aside, the MSM loves ratings and if it's a good story they run with it.

[tbone717]

I agree that in general, ME isn't considered that important to the media when it comes to primaries/caucuses. Sure, NH is the most important. Sure, the ME results were partly ignored last time around. Sure, ME has the most disorganized and confusing caucus system. Sure, the results may change after they are announced on Saturday because the voting will not finish on Saturday.

However, both Romney and Ron Paul are trying hard to win in ME. It is very important to both of those campaigns. Media figures are saying it is very crucial to both of those campaign. A 3rd place finish by either campaign in ME would be devastating. A 2nd place finish by either campaign (unless it was a very close match-up) would also hurt both campaigns in the eyes of the media. Also, think about donations, if Paul wins this his supporters are encouraged and his donations go up. If Paul loses, watch for lots of people on this forum to go crazy.

Right but I'd wager dollars to donuts that most people in this country have no clue that Maine is caucusing right now nor do they care. The only people that care about this race are those of us who will sit there tomorrow night refreshing the Google elections result page cheering on the votes as Aroostook County reports

[mczerone]

It's the Free State Project. NH isn't a liberty haven yet, it was just selected because it was the most likely to be receptive to CHANGE. If you don't like how it's going - and it's going well from what I see - come up with something better for us to work on.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[Sarge]

Ron can do his own media coverage to the Nation, on Face the Nation Sunday, if he wins Maine. We need this win.

[Johncjackson]

Crunch the numbers all you want, but they chose John McCain and Mitt Romney over Ron Paul in consecutive primaries. There's good, informed people everywhere, but there is nothing special about New Hampshire and the whole idea of them being anymore of a 'Free State' than anywhere else is BS.

A significant % of free people don't vote and/or generally disregard the government and political process. There are multiple routes and beliefs as far as freedom goes. You are criticizing a group of people based on the actions of STATIST establishment Republicans in their midst? The Republican nor Democrat parties are significantly "free" in any locale that participates in their statist activities. Duh.

[Keith and stuff]

A significant % of free people don't vote and/or generally disregard the government and political process. There are multiple routes and beliefs as far as freedom goes. You are criticizing a group of people based on the actions of STATIST establishment Republicans in their midst? The Republican nor Democrat parties are significantly "free" in any locale that participates in their statist activities. Duh.

You make very good points. However, a much larger share of the population does vote for freedom in NH than in other states. For example, there are around 90 libertarian state reps in NH, perhaps as many as all other states combined.

Let's look at the Ron Paul numbers. A much higher percentage of the population voted for Ron Paul in NH than anywhere else, and that doesn't even include the 1000s of people that voted for Ron Paul in the NH Democratic Primary. Ron Paul received the next highest percentage of the population voting for him in SC. However, Paul received a 70% boost in the polls in SC because of his success in NH. If it wasn't for the great success in NH, Paul might not have even broken the 1% amount in SC (or any other state for that matter.)
Highest percentage of total population voting for RP, by state:
1. NH: 4.3%
2. SC: 1.7%
3. Iowa: 0.9%
4. FL: 0.6%
5. MO: 0.5%
6. MN: 0.3%
7. NV: 0.2%
8. CO: 0.2%

[Keith and stuff]

Oh if Romney wins it will get coverage because it will be seen as a comeback. It's more of a news story that way. If Paul wins it won't get the coverage. Part of it is a media blackout and part of it is the fact that Paul is not part of the narrative. I'd venture to guess that if Newt were to win, it wouldn't get the coverage either because he really isn't as much of a part of the story as he was two weeks ago. If Paul would have won NV, MN and/or CO, Maine would be a bigger story for Paul. Bias aside, the MSM loves ratings and if it's a good story they run with it.

Fox News is reporting on ME :)

Romney could face fourth straight loss
zzz.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/10/romney-could-face-fourth-straight-loss/
By Chris Stirewalt
Published February 10, 2012


Remember, There's Maine

"I think I have a natural connection with the people of Maine. Mainers tend to be fiscally conservative, and as governor of a state next door, Massachusetts, they know that I was the guy that balanced the budget all four years and lowered taxes 19 times. So I think I've got a good chance of getting support from our friends in Maine."

-- Mitt Romney in an interview with WCSH of Portland, Maine.


This weekend, Romney will box with Texas Rep. Ron Paul, the only other candidate to seriously contest Maine's straw poll.


Paul, who is passing up the Conservative Political Action Convention in Washington today to head directly to Maine, is on very favorable turf for the same reason Romney finds himself at a disadvantage. You've got to be a passionate supporter to make your voice heard in a non-binding straw poll held in a stranger's house on a February night in Maine. Does that sound more like a Paulista or a Romneyite?

But Romney is refusing to let Maine go without a fight and has started airing commercials there and will head to the Black Bear State immediately after his speech at CPAC today.

[Sovereign Curtis]

Is the Free State Project in NH then a joke? :confused:

Idk. Maybe you should ask some people with the Maine campaign if they felt the help provided by NH activists wasn't necessary/needed/influential.

[bluesc]

"If Ron Paul wins ****.."

Every. Damn. Time.

No, it isn't over. It's still an awesome project.

[Keith and stuff]

Idk. Maybe you should ask some people with the Maine campaign if they felt the help provided by NH activists wasn't necessary/needed/influential.

I know some NH supporters are going back to ME on Saturday to help out. It seems like that's the story every weekend. Remember this, lol. Thank you Curtis for helping in ME!
NH Ron Paul Supporters Occupy Maine

While Paul supporters concentrate on their considerable ground game, Romney breaks out the big guns.
By Ryan O'Connor
February 7, 2012
http://windham.patch.com/articles/ron-paul-occupy-maine-caucuses


On Jan. 11, the day after New Hampshire's First-in-the-Nation Primary, hundreds of Ron Paul supporters scoured Granite State roadways for campaign signs, which they collected and distributed to Vermont, South Carolina, Massachusetts and Maine.


That, specifically, is why Kathy Peterson of Nashua jumped on an old white school bus with 21 other young Ron Paul supporters and made the two-hour trek to Paul's Maine campaign headquarters in Falmouth (just north of Portland) to stump for their candidate.

[Paul4Prez]

Is the Free State Project in NH then a joke? :confused:

The FSP isn't in New Hampshire yet -- just 1,000 of the 20,000 planned, 11 years ago. Too bad it didn't work out by 2006 as originally planned -- Ron Paul would have done much better with 20 times as many activists there.

[Paul4Prez]

Highest percentage of total population voting for RP, by state:
1. NH: 4.3%
2. SC: 1.7%
3. Iowa: 0.9%
4. FL: 0.6%
5. MO: 0.5%
6. MN: 0.3%
7. NV: 0.2%
8. CO: 0.2%

THose numbers are pretty sad. Assuming Ron Paul has hardcore support among 5-8% of the population, we could be winning most states if everyone who liked him would just vote.

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[Firehouse26]

NH-

NO SALES TAX

NO INCOME TAX

WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE ARGUING?

Too bad the property taxes are through the roof...

[daviddee]

...

[ssjevot]

If we seriously want a free state we need to take over a low population state no one will miss. Like Montana or Wyoming. We're not going to take over New Hampshire.

[daviddee]

///

[cornell]

Sounds better than a state with a high income tax, high sales tax, and high property tax...

[alucard13mmfmj]

Shower Maine with love if Maine pulls through for Ron Paul ^^.

All these taxes =|..

[daviddee]

...

[Sovereign Curtis]

And those states usually have a high per-capita GDP.

NH's wages are much lower than other states while the tax burden is many times higher (queue: People who state NH is low tax... while not ever doing the math for high earners).

Source, or gtfo. NH has one of the highest median incomes in the nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Income_by_st ate

[Keith and stuff]

Source, or gtfo. NH has one of the highest median incomes in the nation

Thank you. New Hampshire has the highest median household income in the US last I looked. Perhaps that has changed slightly but it still has a very high MHI compared to pretty much every other state.
http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20100926-NEWS-9260325

Per capita pay is also higher in NH than average, obviously. I mean seriously. It is almost like that person was saying the exact opposite of the truth just so that we could prove him wrong so much that we wow everyone with how amazing NH is.

Of course, NH also has the lowest poverty and the lowest child poverty in the US. Why do you think NH is the wealthiest state in the US?

lowest poverty http://www.unionleader.com/article/20111020/NEWS06/111029979&source=RSS
lowest child poverty http://www.unionleader.com/article/20http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acsbr10-05.pdflowest extreme poverty
wealthiest state http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/16/news/economy/Americas_wealthiest_states/index.htm

[Keith and stuff]

And those states usually have a high per-capita GDP.

NH's wages are much lower than other states while the tax burden is many times higher (queue: People who state NH is low tax... while not ever doing the math for high earners).

The NH tax system is designed to reward those that do well and it encourages people to be successful. You are claiming the exact opposite of how it is designed. High earners pay far less in NH.

If someone earns $50,000 or $200,000 in NH, they pay they same income tax, zero. They both pay zero sales tax on cars and at department stores.

Regressive Rhode Island taxes poor the most in New England
February 6th, 2012 at 10:09 am by Ted Nesi
http://blogs.wpri.com/2012/02/06/regressive-rhode-island-taxes-poor-the-most-in-new-england/



The richest Rhode Islanders pay 5.6% of their income in taxes – less than in Vermont (7.5%) and Maine (6.9%) but more than in Connecticut (5.5%), Massachusetts (4.8%) and New Hampshire (2%).

[Mark37snj]

If Ron Paul wins Maine I'm gona cash in all my change in my coin jar and donate it to Ron Paul.

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[Keith and stuff]

Your post is factually incorrect.
Your post assumes that everyone in NH works for someone or works in NH. That may be your situation, but that is not the situation for a lot of people.

I understand that people do not always live and work in the same state. I know several people that live in NH but work in NH, VT and MA (one of them even sometimes works in NY and CT.) None of them pay any income tax to any state. I live in NH but I used to work in MA and NY, and I never had to pay income tax to any state. It depends on the job. Many jobs, such as sales and security, often don't tax people that live in NH and work in another state. In fact, I've known maybe a dozen security workers that lived in NH but worked in NY, MA, CT and ME that never paid any state income tax.

There are other people that live in NH but work for a MA based company. However, these people sometimes work at home in NH and sometimes work at an office in MA. These people are only taxed by MA for the income they earn while at the MA office.

Of course, NH isn't the only state where this happens. It's common for people to work across state lines. When I lived in TN, I know people that worked in MS or AR. They had to pay income taxes to those states, enough though TN doesn't have a state income tax. The situation is also common on the WA/OR border and other borders.

Last I heard, the number of people that live in NH and work in MA was something like 15% of the working population. That makes sense as there are 3 cities with between 50,000 and 100,000 in MA on the NH/MA border. There are plenty of other near-by cities in MA that are also large.

Honestly, I have no idea why you even brought that point up since it is in no way unique to NH and still doesn't change much (if anything) for most people.


The people who live in NH and work in MA = Income taxes are paid to the State of MA

As I reviewed, some of them pay no income taxes to the state of MA. Some people pay partial income taxes to MA. Some pay income taxes on their full, often very high, pay.



The people who live in NH and are self employed = Income taxes are paid to the State of NH

Self employed don't pay any income taxes to NH on their income. There were several business tax buts in 2011 and the burden of proof for business profits tax were shifted from the companies to the government (while additional money wasn't given to the government for audits.) So for example, if you own a business in NH and you make $250,000 per year in NH profits after you have paid off all of your bills, payed all of your employees, upgraded equipment and so on, you can pay yourself $200,000 per year in salary (or whatever amount you want.) Your salary is your person income, and of course, that isn't taxed in NH. With the other $50,000, you can pay business taxes on it, but the carry forward periods for business profits and loses are 10 years in NH. The smarter thing to do is to have someone in your family also work in the business and pay them the $100,000 or any of a million creative ways to get out of most business and all wage taxes in NH. There is still another, business tax in NH that is very hard to avoid, however, the tax is only for businesses that have gross business receipts in excess of $150,000. It is a low tax. There was a 2011 bill to increase the threshold from $150,000 to $200,000, unfortunately it didn't become law. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?284710-NH-House-passes-HB-154-increasing-the-threshold-for-taxation-under-the-business-tax

So anyway, I'm not claiming that there are no corporate taxes in NH. But if you work at a job, even for yourself, and the job is located inside NH (and sometimes outside) you don't have to pay any taxes on your wage. If it is a very small company you own, you may also pay zero or very little corporate taxes.

Became law in 2011:
HB187
Passed without Gov. Lynch’s signature
This bill changes the carry forward periods from 5 years to 10 years for the business enterprise tax credit against the business profits tax.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?284712-NH-House-passes-HB-187-a-bill-to-improve-the-ability-to-carry-business-taxes-forward
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_Status/bill_docket.aspx?lsr=157&sy=2011&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2011&txtsstatus=11

SB125
Passed without Gov. Lynch’s signature
This bill modifies standards and burden of proof with respect to the business profits tax deduction for reasonable compensation attributable to owners of partnerships, limited liability companies, and sole proprietorships.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?283835-NH-House-passes-a-bill-to-place-the-burden-of-proof-of-business-taxes-on-the-government
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/bill_docket.aspx?lsr=212&sy=2011&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2011&txtbillnumber=sb125


How do they accomplish this? By taxing the shit out of business, real estate, dividends/interest, etc? It is clear what rung you on are... as if you were actually cutting the checks you would not be living in NH.

As I demonstrated, business taxes for small companies are zero to low in NH. Larger companies do pay taxes, but typically near the lowest in the Northeast. There are real estate taxes, but that is common in most states, although, perhaps not as high as in NH. Dividends/interest taxes are very low in NH compared to most states.

[Keith and stuff]

http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2012/01/01/news/10724060.txt

New Hampshire residents not far behind Bay State
BOSTON - New Hampshire has long been considered New England's tax haven of the North, while Massachusetts is stigmatized as the tax-heavy blue state on the bay.

I agree. For example, often in the Boston burb's, people pay higher property tax bills than almost everyone in NH, in addition to a state income and sales tax. Not to mention that fees, tolls and tickets and excise taxes tend to be high, sometimes significantly in MA, when compared to NH. However, people in western MA tend to have properties with much less (sometimes under $100,000) and property tax rates tend to be lower also.


Both states were below the 10.4 percent national average; only four states had a lower combined tax rate than New Hampshire.
I agree that MA isn't anywhere near the worst state when it comes to taxes. However, especially when compared to NH, every fee, charge, excise tax, toll and ticket tends to be higher, not just the main taxes people think about. And while on a whole, 4 states have a combined tax rate lower than NH, property taxes vary significantly in NH. Some of the communities in NH don't have property taxes. Other communities have very low property taxes. Some communities have high property taxes. However, even in many of those communities, you can live in a mobile home on some land and pay around $1,000 per year in property taxes. Then there are the super rich with huge houses in high tax property tax communities that pay over $15,000 per year in property taxes, but that is true in most states.


A person living in Manchester, N.H., pays a 2.2 percent property tax, but residents of New Hampshire's only island town of New Castle pay only a 0.6 percent property tax rate.

Many Massachusetts towns don't fall too far from New Hampshire's property tax levels. Salem residents face a 1.5 percent property tax rate; homeowners in Milford pay a 1.1 percent property tax.

Exactly. And as I said, there are areas in NH with zero property taxes. There are other areas with a rate below 0.6.


"Every state has its tax issues," Moody said. "New Hampshire doesn't have a sales tax, but they do have an 8 percent tax on lodging and meals. So, someone who enjoys going out to nice restaurants often is going to see themselves paying more."

That's a great point. There is also a 9% car rental tax in NH. These rates are lower than the 15% to 20% or so rates that WA and NY charge and likely lower than what many states change. However, these taxes tend to exist in NH and almost all other states. People don't mind them because these taxes are considered to hit the tourists, the visiting media (especially in NH during Primary season), out of state shoppers (especially in NH) and the upper middle class and wealthy. Personally, I don't rent cars in NH. I don't stay at hotels, either. If I want to stay in a certain part of the state, I stay with a friend or camp. I almost never eat at public restaurants in NH. I tend to cook at home (it is a prepared food tax) or eat at underground restaurants (which, obviously, don't charge taxes.) 1000s of people in NH know about the underground restaurants.

My rent is under $300 per month so I don't pay a lot of property taxes either. When I did work in NY and MA, I never had to pay state taxes on the income because of the nature of my job. I guess, it depends :)

[nobody's_hero]

I don't think Free Staters took into account that they picked a state right next to Massachusetts. I like the idea of the FSP, but apparently, so do liberals from Massachusetts who screwed up their own state, who can't figure out why things went horribly wrong, and then moved into New Hampshire like locusts moving from one field of crops to another.

[Keith and stuff]

I don't think Free Staters took into account that they picked a state right next to Massachusetts. I like the idea of the FSP, but apparently, so do liberals from Massachusetts who screwed up their own state, who can't figure out why things went horribly wrong, and then moved into New Hampshire like locusts moving from one field of crops to another.

We did take it into account. Keep in mind that several thousand of the top liberty activists in the nation voted in the which state vote. I am not talking about small time stuff, I say many, if not most of the top liberty activists in the nation, at the time of the vote, voted on which state and New Hampshire won.

Why did New Hampshire win? It won because the Governor Benson, the governor of New Hampshire, joined as a Friend. It won because the New Hampshire Libertarian Party created a 101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire (http://freestateproject.org/101Reasons) document. It won because Porcfest 0 was held in New Hampshire and really excited a lot of people. It also won because of other reasons. For example, New Hampshire has both the most locally controlled government state structure in the US and also the easiest to change. NH, along with DE (one of the 10 states considered) offered the best job prospects. NH because some of it is part of the Boston MSA. DE because some of it is part of the Philly MSA. Of course there were other reason, such as NH being the freest state in the nation, and NH being the state where the LP was most famous. No doubt the lack of a board based sales on income tax was also a factor, something that exists partially because NH is so close to MA. A large portion of the taxes paid in NH are paid by people from MA. A large portions of the jobs in NH exist because of people from MA visiting NH to shop and vacation.

As for people that move from MA to NH, the majority of them move for good reasons. They move because MA is too statist, because taxes are lower in NH and because the cost of living is lower in NH. Lots of the most effective activists and even legislators in NH are former MA residents. The awesome Speaker of the House moved from MA, some of the elected Free Staters moved from MA, and even a Senior Moderator of Ron Paul Forums moved from MA to NH.

Statistically, the statists moving to NH tend to be from other parts of New England and New Jersey. Unfortunately, NH has a very vibrant economy and it has been that way for years, at least compared to the other economies east of the Mississippi River. There are lots of high tech, bio-tech, health, education, defense contracting and other advanced jobs in New Hampshire. Not surprisingly, people from the Northeast with advanced degrees tend to be statists. Unfortunately, New Hampshire is widely considered by many indexes and rankings (not just freedom related), one of the best places to live in the US. So naturally, people are attracted to NH. In some ways, New Hampshire is a victim of its own success. However, that doesn't mean it cannot get better and more free. In fact, that happened last year, will happen this year, and likely happen in many years yet to come.